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Doubles Only Tennis Podcast
The only tennis podcast with a focus on doubles. We believe doubles should be more popular and get more coverage than it does, so we’re fixing that. Our goal is to help you become a better player with pro doubles tips and expert strategy. We interview ATP & WTA tour doubles players and top tennis coaches to help you improve your game.
Doubles Only Tennis Podcast
Jamie Murray Interview: Solving All the World's Doubles Problems in 1 Hour
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Jamie Murray is a 7-time Grand Slam Doubles Champion and a former world #1 with 34 career men's doubles titles. I set up a 15-minute interview with Jamie during the Dallas Open and we didn't talk about any of that. We also didn't discuss strategy, tactics, or mindset for improving your doubles game. I never asked about his story, or mentioned his brother Andy or his mother Judy.
Instead, we talked about how to grow professional doubles. And the conversation lasted a full hour.
Jamie is uniquely qualified to tackle this problem because of his success on the pro tour and his experience as the tournament director at the Queen's Club Championships, an ATP 500 Event.
During this conversation, we dive deep into all topics related to making doubles better.
- Rule changes
- Scheduling
- Marketing & social media
- What the tours & tournaments can do
- What the players can and probably should do
- Roadblocks facing doubles
- and more...
My hope is that this episode generates more conversations that lead to positive change for doubles. I think there is a larger market for doubles if it's delivered and broadcasted the right way.
You can do your part by watching doubles on TV, engaging with doubles content on social media, and if you're a player, building your own brand by engaging with fans and media to get your story out there.
Learn more about Jamie & follow:
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Elevating Pro Doubles With Jamie
Speaker 1You're about to hear my conversation with Jamie Murray, but before we get to the interview, I wanted to share why I think this is one of the most important episodes that I've ever recorded. So Jamie Murray has won seven Grand Slam titles in doubles. He's one of the best and most influential doubles players of the last few decades and in Dallas, during the Dallas Open, I set up a 15-minute interview with Jamie. Now, when I set up an interview with a player like this, I always do a little bit of research beforehand. So I'll look at their Wikipedia page to see if there's any stats or stories that stand out. I'll look to see if they've been in the news recently in case there's something I've missed. I'll look at recent results as well, just to talk about the year and different goals they might have. And in this conversation I could have gone a number of directions with Jamie. We could have talked about strategy. We could have talked about how he's a lefty and that creates different situations on the court. We could have talked about mixed doubles, where he's won five Grand Slam titles. I also could have asked about his story growing up with Andy learning doubles from his mom, judy, who's a fantastic doubles coach, but I didn't choose any of those topics and I think if I had, the conversation would have lasted about 15 minutes, because you can read about all of that in other places. You can find a story about Jamie and his life growing up online somewhere. He's probably interviewed about it multiple times. You can learn about double strategy, mixed strategy, playing doubles with a lefty on my website, on my YouTube channel, and there's a number of other coaches who can teach you about that as well. So I chose a different topic.
Speaker 1Now this is a doubles podcast. I love to teach doubles. I love tactics, I love strategy. I think it's so much fun to study and to analyze. I love to watch doubles and talk doubles.
Speaker 1But if you've listened to the podcast for a while, then you know one of my missions, one of my goals, is to help make pro doubles more popular. My missions, one of my goals, is to help make pro doubles more popular. Now this is the 223rd episode of the podcast. I've interviewed over 100 doubles players doubles coaches, tennis media people all sorts of different people in the industry and I always ask them how can we make pro doubles more popular? So I've had over a hundred of these conversations both on and off the podcast and I really believe that pro doubles has untapped potential. I think there's a market for it. I think if it's delivered in the right way and marketed in the right way, it can be much bigger than it currently is, and I want to use this podcast and use Tennis Tribe to help drive that forward.
Speaker 1So this is the topic that I chose to focus on with Jamie, because he's so uniquely qualified to answer this question how can we make pro doubles more popular? He's not only a doubles player with tons of success, he's also a tournament director, and the conversation ended up lasting nearly an hour, and I think these conversations are crucial to have to move doubles forward. You're basically about to hear a one-hour brainstorming session between me and Jamie on how to change doubles for the better, and these types of conversations are great. I would actually also love to have someone on the podcast who disagrees with a lot of what we say, because I also think it's important not to have this kind of echo chamber where we're just sitting there kind of complaining back and forth about the support that doubles isn't getting or just talking about the potential it has with other people who agree with us. I think it's important to talk with people who disagree so that we can come to solutions and compromises and move things forward. But in this conversation, this brainstorming session, you're going to hear Jamie's thoughts on different rule changes to Doubles, how he thinks the scheduling can improve doubles. We talk about marketing and social media. We talk about what the tours and the tournaments can do, as well as the grand slams. We talk about what the players can and probably should do to help make doubles more popular and we also talk about a lot of different roadblocks that are facing doubles and a lot more. So I hope that you listen to this conversation and maybe it kind of inspires you to create change or have more of these conversations to help doubles move forward.
Speaker 1Recently, the US Open announced some changes to the mixed doubles. A lot of doubles specialists, doubles players, were understandably upset and I hope that if you are one of those doubles players or doubles coaches, that this drives you to kind of take a lot of this into your own hands, get more involved if you can and do the best you can to kind of increase your own brand awareness and take a lot of this into your own hands, like I said. So I'm hoping to have more conversations like this going forward again, with people who agree with Jamie, agree with me, and also people who disagree, because I think, like I said, it's important to come to solutions and compromises that that work and that move our sport forward as a whole, both for singles and doubles, because what's been, uh, what the tours have been doing and what has been happening to doubles over the last five, 10, maybe more years, uh, really just isn't working. So we do need to have these conversations to create some of this change. So, without further delay, enjoy this brainstorming session, enjoy this conversation, enjoy this interview with Jamie Murray.
Speaker 1Hey everybody, welcome to the show. Today we have Jamie Murray on. Jamie, welcome.
Speaker 2Thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1So we're here outside of the Dallas Open Y'all finished your match earlier, dallas Open Y'all finished your match earlier and we could, you know, an interview with you. I could sit here and talk about your seven majors or doubles tactics, but I want to talk about the growth of the sport and the growth of doubles in particular, because I feel like you've got obviously a lot of experience with it and a really unique perspective being a tournament director as well, and you've kind of looked at this from all different angles. And I actually had a question that I wanted to leave lead with. But earlier today you said something to your coach when you introduced me to him, and that changed my leading question. So you told your coach this is Will and he's's fighting a lonely battle. Why did you say that?
Speaker 2educate people about it and, you know, promote some of the players and, I guess, just the game itself, which, you know, it's not, yeah, it's not like an easy thing to do that and yeah, I would say like the powers that be are not necessarily doing that or haven't been doing that through my time on the tour, which is quite a long time now.
Speaker 2But you know, for me like there's a lot of little things that they could do to, I guess, just maybe make it, you know, package it better than what it currently has been, not necessarily stuff that costs money, but just stuff that, like when you're taking it to market, let's say, like that it's actually okay, this is the best product we can come up with, you know, and here it is, whereas right now is it's not the best product. That it that it can be, for a multitude of reasons, um, and so it's kind of like, you know, in a way, like you feel like it's not a surprise that it's failing because it's not there, showcased at its best, like potential, if you, if you like, do you feel like it's more of a product issue or a marketing issue?
Speaker 2obviously well, I think both. I think both. I mean ultimately, like you know there's, you know such a large percentage of you know the population consume their sports through social media now, like a lot of people watch highlights on instagram, for example, youtube, blah, blah, blah. But you know we have zero presence online. So how do you kind of put it, and you know, put it in people's I don't know what the word is in their uh get their awareness yeah, how do you exactly attention and awareness, how do you bring that people if, like, there's nothing online about it?
Speaker 2um, so, I think, like that needs to, that needs to change for sure. And but you know, the product itself, like it doesn't I don't know, it doesn't lend itself to like you know. For example, it's, you know, we played today an hour 45 minutes, you know, and we're sitting there because there's like live TV changeovers, so the changeovers is like 90 seconds and it's like you know we don't need to be playing 90 second changeovers every time.
Speaker 1So they had live TV changeovers today on the quarterfinal match.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, see, this is stuff I'm still trying to learn.
Speaker 1Learn like I thought that was like a quarterfinal match at a 500 would be streamed for paid subscribers, but not like commercial breaks and stuff. But I don't know.
Speaker 2She said live tv, so okay I don't know necessarily where that certainly not in the us like at home, like people are watching it on sky in the uk, like they're watching that, um so so yeah so.
Speaker 2So of course, like we have to, you know, we have to sit there for the full 90 seconds, which is annoying for us because we're ready to play earlier, yeah, but also it just there's just there's a lot of dead time on the court, you know, because you know we're not always having like 10 stroke rallies and stuff, just with how the game is currently played. So for me, I think the first thing they need to do is minimize the dead time, which they tried last year. They had shorter time between points, which didn't really work because all the sort of tension went out the match because you were just constantly playing. So for the fans, I don't think that was great, was great. For the players, it was pretty rubbish as well, because you you felt very rushed and you just had no communication with your partner, which you know doubles is. So much about that. Um, and it was. It wasn't really a I wouldn't say like a fun environment to play, but they got rid of a lot of the changeovers, which I would say was a big positive.
Speaker 2But this year they're focusing on, you know, condensing the number of days at the tournament, certainly, like for the masters and stuff and other tournaments are able to to be a part of that if they, if they want which I think that is is is also a good thing, is a positive, because you know, like, for example, if we're at indian wells and you know we tournament starts on like thursday and the finals on saturday, sunday, it's like a 12-day tournament, 11, 12-day tournament for us, you know, and to win the tournament you've got to win five matches. So you've got like seven days of like nothing. You know, like it's for the players it's rubbish, um, whether that's like us as doubles players who are just like hanging around, you know, and you don't know if you're going to play on thursday, friday or saturday for the first round, but of course you could play thursday, so you have to get there on sunday or monday to prepare and get over the, the time zones and all that stuff. So you're there for two weeks to play five matches, essentially. So, again, if you go all the way to the final, that's like nine days of doing jack shit. You know, like that's that's rubbish.
Creating Tennis Stars Through Marketing
Speaker 2And obviously for the singles guys, you know they play as long as it's convenient for them. So you know, as long as it kind of works out with their singles, but as soon as it becomes an inconvenience, they'll pull the plug. You know, which is not what we want, right? So again, like, for example, these longer master series, like you know, if they lose early in the singles and it's like well, now I've got to, if I want to get to the doubles final, I got to hang around for like 10 days. Like they don't want to do that, which is understandable. Um, so I think the fact they're condensing it is uh, is a good thing.
Speaker 2But, and also, like a seven-day tournament, like it doesn't work for the singles guys either, because the first round's played over three days. The quarterfinals is on thursday. So for the singles guys, if they win their match, their doubles match, on thursday, then they're definitely here till the weekend saturday, sunday. If they win their doubles match on Thursday, then they're definitely here till the weekend Saturday, sunday. But if they lose in the singles, they want to go to the next tournament to prepare, because they might have to play on Monday or whatever. So they don't want to be here playing doubles on Saturday and Sunday. So for me the schedule doesn't lend itself for these guys to kind of play the full seven days.
Speaker 1So are you saying that the goal with this is to make it more appealing for singles players to play.
Speaker 2Well, it depends.
Speaker 1Like it depends what your priority is. Yeah, I'm just trying to understand.
Speaker 2And the team could have a lot of different priorities.
Speaker 1Well, there's so many different perspectives, right?
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm just trying to understand, right, it may be more um changing, getting rid of the dead time on changeovers like you're talking about to make the tv experience better or social media marketing, like you're talking about yeah, I mean the like, the dead time, for example, that will just, you know, have there'll be just be better match flow, for example. You know, if you're watching live you don't really pick up on that so much because you're like invested in the match and you're kind of there and you're feeling the you know kind of the energy on the court and and the tension of the match. But when you're watching at home on tv and I'm guilty of it as well I'm just like you know, come on, hurry up, like let's get to the next point, like almost like wanting to fast forward on the on the remote to get to the next point. So it's not a good. I don't think it's a good tv experience watching doubles um.
Speaker 1Do you think commentators might help that though?
Speaker 2I mean, I think it would help if I love watching it more if, if they were more clued up on the on the doubles like I love watching renee call doubles match. Yeah, but that was her game right. And she knows it inside out and she knows the players, yeah.
Speaker 1Sometimes they get played A lot of guys don't.
Speaker 2They don't know the players, but then there's no reason for them to really know the players, because they're not really commenting on doubles particularly much, unless it's like a grand slam, yeah, um. So you know, and and it's not something that is again, it's there, it's not in their face like for them to consume like on a weekly basis of that um, so I want to step back for a second and look at this like at a really high level.
Speaker 1so so let's say the night session is about to start, in like an hour or two. Yeah, fans are going to start coming through the gates here. Let's say we walk up to the fans coming in the gates and ask each of them who are you, or what are you here for? Yeah. Do you think they're gonna say to watch the singles? Or do you think they're gonna say I'm here to watch taylor fritz?
Speaker 2I think they're. I think they're here to watch they might say they're here to watch taylor fritz, or they're here to watch tennis, tennis.
Improving Doubles Exposure and Scheduling
Speaker 2I think a lot of people that come to, you know, like bigger events, of course there's a lot of like tennis fans, but then there's people that are, you know, coming to the event and they're just there to consume tennis. It doesn't necessarily matter to them if it's, you know, singles, doubles, whatever. I think, like, ultimately, people want to watch the stars and then they probably want to watch, like local players, so they're countrymen and and women, uh, and then after that it's kind of probably a bit of everything else, like who cares? You know, kind of be just being part of the part of the event. Um, that's what I would, that's what I would think, because, like, not everyone that goes to indian wells is like a hardcore tennis fan or goes to wimbledon. You know they go to wimbledon because it's to say it's a scene, right, it's to say that you've been to wimbledon.
Speaker 2They're not necessarily loving tennis or whatever. Like us open will be the same like us opens in town. It's like, okay, I go to, I go to the us open, but they're not necessarily going because they desperate to desperately love tennis. They go to be part of the event and, you know, say that they've, they've been there so.
Speaker 1So this is where I've like had a I think anyway, yeah, no, no so this is where I've kind of had a debate with a lot of people. So I think they are there, like you say, to see the stars, right. And then the question is like, okay, well, what creates a star? Like what makes Taylor Fritz a star? Is it singles or is it marketing, or is it something else or some combination of all this? And, like, my contention is that I think marketing plays a lot larger role in it than people give it credit for.
Speaker 1And you mentioned social media earlier. I read your interview from last year with tennis majors, like 30 minutes ago, and you talked about, you scrolled through, like the Miami open, and less than 1% of the posts are about doubles. Last night I pulled up Dallas Open. It was the 97th Instagram post. I had to scroll through 97 posts to find a doubles one and it was a week before the tournament and it showed the doubles entry list. So there's been zero social media posts about doubles this week and I feel like that they're here to watch taylor fritz and if he played in the doubles draw like they would come watch the doubles. Um, ben shelton had a great crowd yesterday yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean that's.
Speaker 2That's why, like, I guess, when you go back to like making it more convenient for the singles players to play, like I would rather have the best singles guys playing the doubles tournament, but right now it just doesn't work for them to like, yeah, play till the end of the tournament.
Speaker 2You know, um, for the reasons that I was that was saying, and also you know the prize money gap or discrepancy whatever between singles and doubles is like massive and it's only getting bigger and bigger. So you know these guys motivations to play doubles for a match for ten thousand dollars or fifteen thousand dollars or whatever, is not the same as when they play the next day for singles for, you know, 150,000, 200,000. So I get it that. You know if the scheduling doesn't work for them, then you know they might pull the plug or you know they lose in singles, like, yeah, I'm not going to stay another four days to, you know, potentially win the doubles. I'd rather go to next week's tournament and prepare there because obviously the rewards are much, are much greater do you think there's a scenario?
Speaker 1so like, short term, I agree with you, right, like. And then if we want to grow doubles as much as possible in the next two years like we've got to get alcaraz center, taylor fritz, whoever playing doubles but if we want to grow doubles in the next 20 years I don't know if that's the best solution like to get the singles players on board and obviously you can create a blend of that to create some maybe short-term doubles growth. But long-term, don't we need to market the doubles players and doubles teams better so that in 20 years if Jamie Murray has a son who plays doubles, like he's a double star instead of a single star?
Speaker 2I don't know. Yeah, no, you have very valid points like the. The marketing is is zero, you know. So people's awareness, like online stuff, of doubles is zero. Um, you, I think like the game has grown a lot, like people that are at tournaments, you know, I feel it because they come and they talk to me and they, you know, they're like, oh, why is not more doubles on TV or we can't watch whatever. But since, like tennis TV took on you know the masters, and now it's like 500s as well, people can follow the game a lot easier, which is great. And you feel that over the years that it's grown, people are more aware of the players, of the doubles players for sure, which is a positive, and the matches are well supported at these bigger events, the Masters.
Speaker 2But again, our problem is scheduling. So you go to Indian Wells and you play first round on Friday, saturday, sunday, and the crowd is crazy and all the courts are packed and whatever, and you need bigger outside stadium stadium courts. But then on monday everyone goes home and the grounds are like really quiet for the rest of the week. So we're playing, you know, quarterfinals, semifinals, you know on like 10 000 seer stadiums and there's like six people watching. So if you're watching that on tv like that's total shit, why would I care about that? If people aren't caring enough to go and watch that on site, why would I care at home? Right, like that's totally normal and it's for us like it's depressing to go out and play like that, like it'd be better for us to play on court six, on a small court much more intimate. But the reason that they, that they, they do that is because you know the, the, you know atp media say that well, we offer much better production on those bigger cores because you know there's a much better setup, number of cameras and quality and all that stuff which you know they obviously want to uphold that.
Speaker 2Um, but for us as players it's actually worse. But for us as players it's actually worse, it's actually worse. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, I guess, like the marketing stuff. Like I can't control that, you know, but I can certainly put my opinions forward in terms of like condensing draws and potentially front-loading tournaments. You know, like indian wells is going to start the second sunday this year, which okay, like it's good that they've condensed it, but in my opinion it's not going to work because we're going to play more of the tournament in front of like less people because the grounds will be empty. So that's not showcasing double and you're less likely to get the top guys signing up, which indian well is always famous for like.
Speaker 2For me, the more doubles matches that the singles guys can play before competing in the singles the better. So I would for sure trial at one tournament, like starting the doubles on the monday of indian wells or the monday of miami and having the final like on sunday, for example. So you know this, the singles guys, you know they'd have to win like because they all have buys if they're in the doubles in these tournaments. They'll have buys in the singles because of their ranking. So you know they could play potentially like two or three doubles matches before they start kicking off with the singles.
Speaker 2So by that stage like but then they'll retire if they're in the third round of doubles, right no, I don't think they would, because, let's say, you know the tournament starts on monday, you know they could be playing.
Speaker 2They could be in the semi-finals by friday yeah and then it's like, okay, well, I only have to play two more matches to win this tournament and then I'm playing my singles the rest of the time, whereas right now is like if I lose my singles early, I got seven or eight days, yeah, to get to the final here. Like I can't really be bothered with that. I can't be bothered to have like two days rest waiting for a doubles match. You know which, even which. Even for us players it's annoying. So I would.
Speaker 2I would try that. I would have like tournaments starting like the doubles on Sunday at like these events, for example seven day events, and get a bunch of matches out on on Sunday, have the final on Friday and and see how. See how that works. Cause again, you get the guys playing singles earlier because that's why they enter like they enter to get practice before the singles. So for them it's actually annoying when they can't play the doubles match till wednesday and they've had to play singles first and stuff. So I see I would, I would. I'm not saying that that's like guaranteed to be the answer, but I think you definitely have to experiment that stuff, yeah, um, I know you got to run soon no, no, you're fine, you're fine.
Speaker 1You have a few more time for a few more um. So you're the tournament director at queens, yeah, which is um gives you another kind of unique perspective. Yeah, is there anything you've done there to try to bring a bit more doubles exposure at that tournament or anything you can do? I guess maybe some of your hands are tied, since uh yes, but it's difficult.
Speaker 2Like last year we did the tournament wednesday to sunday, which worked out well because we didn't have rain, but we were also lucky with with the scheduling and how this sort of doubles draw played out and that we didn't have to have singles guys playing singles and doubles on on those days um, because they were either like on the right side of the draw or they they lost um.
Speaker 2And then this year, like we have the opportunity to potentially do that again. But I feel like last year we maybe got lucky and this year we wouldn't get lucky if you're playing the odds and then we have a situation where I don't know Sebi Korda's in the singles and doubles on Thursday and TV wants to play him like the third match because he's playing Alcaraz. So he's got to play the third match, singles, and then he's got to play doubles after at like eight o'clock on court one and then you're increasing the chance of these guys pulling the plug and not playing, which, like for me that's what's most annoying. Like I want to lessen the chances as much as possible of that stuff, of that stuff happening, because it's like a draw record you know.
Speaker 1So how much of this? Um, you're clearly big on like changing the scheduling. How much of this is uh, up to tv versus the tour or maybe the tour related. This is something I'm still like trying to In terms of what, changing the scheduling that you're?
Speaker 2talking about or like condensing the number of days of the tournament.
Speaker 1Exactly so. Like doubles players don't need.
Speaker 2That's coming from the tour. Like they want to trial that this year.
Speaker 1Yeah, they tried in Madrid for the first time last year, I think.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, so they tried on the. Yeah, so we started on the tuesday and the final was on sunday. So I mean, another reason that they want to do that is because they want to take pressure off of the on-site facilities earlier in the in the week, when obviously everyone's around, everyone wants to practice. Like it's just a lot of pressure on the on the on the on-site facility. So if they kind of shift the doubles to later in the week, like instead of us arriving like on the wednesday before the tournament, you know we'll arrive like a few days later, so there's more chance for everyone to prepare accordingly but your solution does the opposite, like it moves, doubles up to the yeah it does.
Speaker 2it does, but you're getting rid of guys yeah, earlier. Because let's say, like you play Indian Wells on a Monday, or you play here, you start the doubles on Sunday and you play four or five first round matches on Sunday. A lot of those doubles guys lose and they go home, they're not going to hang around for, you know, seven days here Indian Wells would kind of be the same Like people would, you know, playing matches.
Speaker 1they're losing and then okay I'm leaving, so it would still alleviate some pressure early. It sounds like. Maybe not as much, like not as much not as much.
Prioritizing Doubles in Tennis Industry
Speaker 2Yeah, not as much, but but but some yeah you, you, you would have to take into consideration that people would leave once they finish the tournament, which half the draw is done. Monday and Tuesday.
Speaker 1They're gone, you know. So I was reading through that tennis majors interview earlier and I was trying to get a sense of just your feelings on this and it seemed like you're both optimistic and kind of almost defeated and tired at the same time. Would that be accurate?
Speaker 2of just like fighting this fight for doubles, I think so I mean, yeah, I think so, I think it's like you know, like getting rid of changeovers, for example, like they could make that decision tomorrow right, and it, and it immediately elevates it, just makes things better so if they did that, then the tv would just have to deal with it like they'd have to figure it out yeah, but my, my question is like how much doubles is on live tv anyway, across the year, that's what I'm to the point that we right now that we're not cutting change over time.
Speaker 2You know, because ultimately, you know, if I think tv's even said like they need the matches like maximum, like an hour 15. So last year when they were doing those trials, like they were getting matches like down to that comfortably, there was obviously a lot. There was time cut between the points and stuff which wasn't great. Yeah, and I spoke to ross hutchins every day. I was like no one complains now, right, that you've gone back to normal. He's like no, because for the players it's a better playing condition, like not to be rushed for for time. Um, between the points. Uh, so yeah, like ultimately the shorter the matches, it's yeah, like ultimately the shorter the matches, it's better for players like singles players, it's better for scheduling because you know you've got a more fixed time that these matches are going to last. Like we played today in hour 43. Like we don't need to play in hour 43 for that same match. Like we could have done that in an hour 20 probably, hour 25 maybe.
Speaker 1Well, if they that in an hour 20 probably, hour 25 maybe.
Speaker 2Well, if they stopped in an hour 20 y'all wouldn't have won. Yeah, we wouldn't have won. Yeah, we wouldn't have won um. But you know that's, that's fine, um yeah, so I'm joking.
Speaker 1Yeah, I know I know, I know.
Speaker 2So you know it's better for scheduling at tournaments. It's better for the fans because you know they're sitting there, they're seeing more action in the condensed time. Players they know they have a better idea of when they're going to play. And also, like you said, yesterday or the day that we played our first round match, we played at like 4.45. There was nothing on centre court until 7 o'clock. We could easily have gone and played our match on centre court, which realistically they should have done that, um, but tournaments would have that opportunity more to like squeeze these extra matches in if, if the opportunity comes up, because they know it's only going to be like an hour, hour 15, whereas right now they can't take those chances because match could go like two hours yeah, you know, yeah, I see that.
Speaker 1Um, do you feel like the, the tour, or like just the, the powers that be, as you put it at the beginning? Um, do you feel like they just don't care and basically neglect doubles, or do they have a a negative outlook on it? And one example is like for, for the social media you're talking about. So, like I went through the Dallas Open post and they hadn't posted about doubles during the tournament at all. And then I was sitting up in the media room and I start talking to this lady who's sitting there and she helps run the social media team and I asked her like why haven't y'all posted about doubles? And she said oh, my boss actually said this morning like, oh, I haven't given doubles enough love. Like I need a post about doubles. So to me that's not a like, I don't know, it's more of a just neglect slash. Like there's no quota, like they could do, like one out of every 25 posts needs to be about doubles or something like that.
Speaker 2I know, yeah, I mean I have that issue with the tour. You know, with ATP's, yeah, I mean I have that issue with the, with the tour, you know with the, with atp's social media, or atp media, social media and stuff, like you know, there's no reason for them not to, you know, just post more, like I'm not asking them to post freaking 10 times a day, but you know, these guys like they're remit because it will, you know, be like, you know growing. These guys like they're remit because it will, all you know, be about you know, growing, I don't know followers and engagements and all that stuff. You know they'll be getting told, probably like pump Alcaraz, pump Sinner, pump Medvedev, like Taylor, you know. So you know Kyrgios doing another through the leg shot, like, yeah, you know that's what they'll be getting told to do.
Speaker 1It's the stuff they know works.
Speaker 2Exactly, yeah, exactly. But you know, like, there's nothing to stop them, like you know, doing more posts about, yeah, yeah, doubles matches. You know, just highlights of.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's something that just came, you know we saved a crazy point today at 6-3 in the tiebreak, right, like you know, and in the end that's point one is the match, because the next point the guy double falls and then it's six, five. We're back on serve. Like you know, they could easily post, they can be posting that. Yeah, you know, like it's shown on tennis tv, so there's someone there that can cut that clip and put it up.
Speaker 1But yeah, you know that wouldn't, that wouldn't happen, yeah so one thing that came to mind as you're saying that, it's like it, it sounds like, um, it's almost like like big us companies have to meet these like quarterly goals right and they they prioritize often these short-term profits and companies can like start to decline and go under because these, these ceos or whatever, are prioritizing these like quarterly numbers and short-term profits. So it's like if I need to make a lot of money this month, like I'm posting Alcaraz and Center all day, every day.
Maximizing Double's Potential and Prize'Mixed Money
Speaker 1If I'm thinking about the growth of the tour over the next 20 plus years and I know the majority of tennis players play doubles around the world like huh this seems like an opportunity that we should like invest a little bit into, like five percent or two percent or whatever yeah, um, I mean that's that.
Speaker 2I guess that's why the tour started next gen, right, because the tennis had basically become like the big four for everyone and that's what people were interested in.
Speaker 2And I guess some point they realized like, well, these guys aren't going to be around forever, like we need to start, you know, pumping up these young guns and putting them in the public's eye and you know promoting them so when they do get to the top of the game, people are aware of them and we can make stars of them that way, which you know, in a way, was kind of a no-brainer but it needed to be needed to be done and you know a lot of guys have got the rewards from from that, like the tour did, obviously, um, and the players themselves, like, which is great, right, like that's for me, I hope, like all these guys have tons of success because you know they all, they all deserve it.
Speaker 2Like they're all making, they're all great at what they do, they're all making. You know we're all making the same sacrifices and um commitments and you know putting in the the hard yards for our, for our career because ultimately, like, if you don't, then you know you're not going to be on the tour very long because it's so competitive these days so what happens when you?
Speaker 1and just a few more questions sorry, this is very long. Um, what happens when you send this list? You said you had a list on the tennis majors interview, you had a list of things you'd like to see changed on doubles, and you send it to the atp or whoever it is. What happens? You just not hear a response.
Speaker 2Or they say no, I talked to them about it.
Speaker 2I mean, quite a bit of the stuff they tried last year, yeah, um it was really encouraging to see as a fan yeah, I mean I, it was stuff like that like get rid of the dead time yeah, you know matches are taking too long like have a better, better flow to the match. Like if there's less, there's less dead time. Um, you know, like condensing the days of the tournaments and like what those potentially looks like. Is that wednesday to sunday or is it like sunday to friday, for example? Um, you know, but like, for example, tournaments, you know they would probably be against front loading it.
Speaker 2I don't know in order of priority, but one priority will be well, what if we don't get a singles final and we don't have a singles final and we don't have a doubles final because it's played on friday? But even though, like, the chances of like not having a singles final is like I don't know, not point not, not, not three percent or something, that's a reason why it wouldn't happen. Because if it happens here at dallas at my tournament, you know I'm fucked, I'm not going to take that risk, right, it's risk management, but again, for me that'd be like that's not a reason to not do this if it's better for the game of doubles and whatever.
Speaker 1We're always taking our risks.
Speaker 3I wanted to jump in quickly and talk about mixed doubles for a few minutes. I know you've had a lot of mixed doubles success at the majors over the years and where do you feel like mixed doubles fits into this doubles growth conversation and what's the potential of mixed doubles for the future?
Speaker 2doubles right, because there's so few sports where men and women can compete at the same level, you know, on the same court and stuff which you know. In tennis they can, but they do nothing to sort of push that like. I think that's that's a big missed opportunity from from the slams. I don't know about the tour, we obviously don't have mixed doubles on the tour, but I think that is a missed opportunity, especially because so many companies don't want to be involved. If it's only a men's event, for example, it's like no, we need to have a combined event, we need to have women at our event. So that happens to bring these companies into tennis. So it doesn't really make sense that they wouldn't kind of max out on that.
Speaker 2Um, but again, like you know, if you want to grow it, like you kind of you want stars to be playing, right, but the prize money is terrible. You know, if you win it, like great, but the prize money's like been the same for like forever. I mean, I won women in 2007. I think the prize money was 50 000 pounds and I got to the final like 10 years later. It's pretty much the same prize money. It's like, you know, it's actually worth less, you know, than when I won it then with inflation and everything you know between both partners.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, yeah, um, I mean, I was playing fingers for one of them so she probably should have got more than 50 percent, um, but uh, yeah, you know, like us open, obviously they're doing their thing this year, which I don't know what they're going to do with, like prize money, like, if they're expecting, you know, fritz to play and Coco Gauff to play and Jess Pegula, you've got to be incentivizing them more than $2,000 a match. It's crazy. Hopefully they do, otherwise I think it'll be a bit of a failure. And then the Fast Four aspect is just like for me it's just mickey mouse, like it's not, it's not a grand slam, you know, like that's for me that should come with an asterisk, like really, so I, I. But again, for them it's like, you know, can we get the stars playing more? Like I'm sure that's a goal for them, right, they want their top guys to be playing, the guys and girls, right, um, to be playing, and they feel like that's a way to do it, like we can get them out for, you know, 40 minute match ahead of like the slams.
Speaker 2But I guess, like they'd have to consider, and I guess that's why they're doing fast four as well, it's like they do whatever they can to increase the chance of these guys playing. Because I mean, ultimately, like, if you're looking to win the singles, are you gonna like grind for four or five days competing ahead of like a two-week stretch at a slam? Like I don't think you're gonna do that because it's just draining, like being at the courts all day and stuff like um, you know, those guys tend to want to have like a kind of quiet, kind of easy week where they can get time on the courts and prepare and sort of peace and stuff. But all of a sudden, like you know, you're now spending all your days at the courts before you've even played your first round match. Like I don't, I don't think that's so incentivizing, but but if you make the thing shorter and shorter and shorter, it's just like yeah, it's not really sport, it's more exhibition.
Speaker 2at that point it feels like it, yeah, so, yeah, it feels like it, but I'm sure, like the US Open for them, they can sell tickets, so that's more profit.
Speaker 1They probably can get a TV deal during qualifying week too.
Speaker 2Yeah, there'll be Again. It's a chance to get the stars out. It's like what happens at australian open as well. They've got like events going every night, you know, just to get these guys playing more in front of the, in front of the public. Again. It's an opportunity for them to make, make money hopefully. I mean hopefully promote the sport as well. Um, but yeah, I'm interested to see what you know, who's what the prize money is going to be and who's going to enter, because I think who will enter will depend on what the prize money is. I, I think yeah, totally agree.
Speaker 1Awesome, jamie. I could talk about this, uh, for another three hours, but you've got to prepare for a semi-final match soon.
Speaker 2I really honestly fine like I'd rather do as much now than you know. Then you know, maybe there's like not another chance or whatever. So I'm happy, like if you work 10 more minutes or something like okay all right, let's keep going.
Speaker 1um, so, with the mix, I'm I'm always curious or I've become more curious lately about the tv deals.
Speaker 1Um, I'm assuming like they.
Speaker 1So last year the us opened, they had some like exhibition stuff with, like I don't know, roddick was playing with novak and some other people on the court during qualifying week on ash and they aired it on espn.
Speaker 1So they get some kind of tv money through that and this mixed. Maybe they got some kind of TV deal for the mixed going to qualifying week zero and I think short term it's going to generate more revenue for the US Open. Probably and this is a very loosely held opinion because I don't have all the information, but I'm kind of guessing but long term, I think it does a disservice to mixed because, like you said now it's going to be exhibition, the effort level is not going to be there and we're maybe the only sport in the world where we can get a guy and a girl on the same field competing at 100% and like with sport, that's what people want to see most is like the top athletes in the world competing as hard as they can, yeah, and we can do that with mixed and this is not that yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2But again, for me it comes down to prize money. Right, if, if the if it's going to be a million dollars for the team to win, like you know, there'll be guys out there. This same guys when I say guys, I mean general, but yeah, you know they, you know they'll be trying their ass off for, you know, 500 grand, you know. So for me it comes down to prize money more than what the actual format is, even though you know, if it is like best of three, fast four, for me that's ludicrous, but um, it will. For me the effort levels and stuff, the intensity of the competition will, will come down to the prize money because obviously, like you said, if the prize money is well, if the prize money is rubbish, I don't see how these top players are going to compete. And if they do, like you say, the intensity is not going to be there because they're playing for like five grand.
Speaker 1So I guess, like with that, there's two ways to approach, like increasing the prize money. One is get investors to increase it immediately, right yeah, get people who have a lot of money or US Open invest in it, or something.
Speaker 2I'm sure US Open has the funds to.
Elevating Mixed Doubles Recognition in Tennis
Speaker 1Yeah. Or like create a, a I don't know 10-year plan and say like this is how we're going to grow mixed doubles and this is how we're going to grow men's and women's doubles and our goal in 10 years is to have the prize money. Right now, men's and women's doubles is like 25 for the team uh of singles, something like that.
Speaker 2I'm not sure. I think it's around 25%.
Speaker 1So our goal over the next 10 years or 15 years I'm just throwing numbers out there is to get it to 50% or 60% or whatever it is, and like here's our plan to do that. And it's two different approaches. But like I don't know, this status quo stuff of like not investing in it but not wanting to, I don't know keeping it around.
Speaker 2I don't know, it's just weird to me yeah, I think that that's kind of a bit like the the tour when it comes to doubles is like you know, the tournaments want to have it. Generally speaking, they want to have it, the tour obviously wants to have it, but they don't quite know, like, what to do with it, and so over time, like nothing's really got done, and then the game, in a way, is sort of like slowly I don't want to say dying, but like kind of it's definitely not going forward, to put it that way the doubles game specifically.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think so yeah.
Speaker 2But I mean, the thing is now, like all these Masters are like 10-day events, 12-day events, combined events. Like you know, they could have mixed doubles at a lot of these tournaments now.
Speaker 1Yeah, they tried at Indian Wells last year.
Speaker 2Yeah, but again, again it was just badly done, like they literally it was last minute yeah, no, literally last minute. Yeah, you got like a broadcast message going around saying indian wells are going to have a mixed doubles event.
Speaker 2I don't know if it was an eight draw or 16 draw, whatever it was and it was like you need to enter the next day and then it starts on the following day.
Speaker 2It's like you've got loads of people have left already, like you know. For me I'm like you must have known you were going to do that like why are you waiting so late to kind of like put this event together? Um, so like kudos to them for doing it, but it was just, it was just badly kind of planned, I guess. Um, again, like it's more content for these tournaments, which is what a lot of them, a lot of them want, right, like they want more content at the end of the week to get more people still coming, buying ground tickets, spending money on site, and which obviously is hard to do when you know it's like semi-finals day and there's like two singles and maybe a doubles and there's nothing going on in the outside course, for example yeah, I guess, like the, the thing I keep getting caught up on is the, the idea that, like, doubles cannot create stars.
Speaker 1I think that's something that a lot of people I think have in their mind and, like yesterday, I went to the Shelton match his doubles match. He's playing with Zabaios. Everybody's there to watch Shelton and I was sitting there listening. I would love to like have some kind of way to measure the audio on this, but the loudest cheers were for Zabaios, hands down Like it wasn't close because he's got these double skills that all these people are not wasn't close, because he's got these double skills that all these people are not used to seeing.
Speaker 1He's got these like touch angles and like the lobs and the poach and the quick hands and Shelton's like hit a few winners from the baseline and they cheer for that. But they were. Their mind was blown by what Zabaios could do on the court and that just to me right.
Speaker 2there is evidence that like the product is great if we showed some of those highlights, like all those shots that bias hit, nobody's ever going to see him again like I don't know yeah, I think, like some people like doubles because it's faster than singles and they like the fact that, like you know the reaction stuff and you know, you know if you, if you watch singles, you know the commentators and stuff, people you know they're talking about. Oh, these guys hit the ball so hard these days and so much spin and it's crazy and it's like, yeah, it's freaking impressive what they do. But think about me. Who's standing at the net returning these shots, and not, you know, medvedev, who's standing 20 feet behind the baseline returning rafa's forehand, for example?
Speaker 2right, like it's completely different skill set skill set, yeah, and a totally different ability as well to to do that. Um, and you know, like some people respect that, but the tour could tell a much better story about that stuff. Um for sure, or like tv could, could tell a much better story about that. Like you know, our stats, like that, we that come up on the graphics and stuff when you're watching doubles, like you know, or you know like it's a joke, you watch a three-set match and then the stats will come up and it'll be like net points won zero for zero for all teams. Why is that even going on the TV? One, it's obviously completely untrue and two, it's a nonsense stat there must be something else out there. What does net?
Speaker 2points won mean yeah it's just the statting aspect of it is terrible, like there must be something else. What does net points one mean? Yeah, like it's. It's just like that stuff. The stat, the statting aspect of it is terrible. Yeah, that's really frustrating because that also helps like tell a story and the fact that, like the stats aren't individualized also. So, like you know, like today, let's say you know I'm playing with john piers and you know, maybe like I was returning terrible, but he was returning good. So there's no way for like the fans to really know that when they're looking at the stats, because it just says like they've won.
Speaker 2Yeah, 30% of return points. It's like, well, actually he did a great job because he won like 75% of those points, you know, and I only won 25. Yeah, because he won like 75% of those points, you know, and I only won 25 because maybe I returned bad or the guys were serving better to me or whatever. But they don't, they don't tell the story at all. But again, that's just care and attention. It doesn't cost the extra money, it's just care and attention.
Speaker 1Well, I think it has. Part of that is getting the right people to tell the stories right. Like a lot of times when it is broadcast on TV, they're getting people who I don't know, have never seen some of the doubles players play or don't watch doubles specifically, so they're butchering the names or have no clue in terms of strategy what's going on, but I think the word stories is big like.
Speaker 2I totally agree with you like telling the stories is how marketing is done and how things, of course, yeah, like they, you know they could be telling the story that you know, ben shelton has, you know, obviously, making up number. He's got like 2.7 seconds to react to, you know, casper Roode's forehand, yeah, but here on this double score, jamie Murray's got like 0.7 seconds to react to Casper Roode's forehand because he's standing half the distance. You know, like that stuff, which you know, that would be impressive to people, I would think, which you know, that will be impressive to people, I, I would, I, I would think, you know, um, but again, they don't. You know, they don't tell that story.
Enhancing Doubles Entertainment and Strategy
Speaker 2But it is amazing to me, like how, how, how often, like you know, people will come to me and they'll be like disappointed that they can't watch more doubles and why does it not get the recognition it deserves, blah, blah, blah. Like it's it's pretty common that that will happen to me at some point, sort of like week to week on the tour, and I think the tour, I would say, definitely underestimates people, the people that follow doubles, that are into doubles, that, yeah, that, just that group of people, like how potentially big that is. I'm not saying it's huge on the same number of singles, but it's, it's definitely bigger than what they're they think is yeah and the potential as well, and I think this is something.
Speaker 1I'm glad you said that, because this is something I've a lot of people like misconstrue my words when I'm like making these arguments and I think like I'm trying to say doubles or singles, or doubles versus singles, and I'm not doing that, like I think I don't know, like maybe there's an alternate universe where doubles is bigger than singles, but like I'd be happy with 30% in the next like 10 years or something. I don't know what it is right now, like two percent maybe yeah, yeah, I just think they could do it.
Speaker 2It can be both yeah, the tour can do more to feed off of each other. Yeah, just to enhance, enhance doubles and bring more value to the to the tour. For sure, like that, that that can definitely happen. Hopefully it does. Again, like I remain kind of optimistic about it.
Speaker 2But you know, it takes someone kind of needs to like grab the bull by the horn, saying, okay, like we're, we're doing this, which last year you know they obviously they had their trials and stuff like you know they did. They did the mic, the mic stuff in washington. But like I said, and mark I in the tournament, he was so pumped about it and I and I was pumped for it too, but I said, look, like they're also doing a trial where there's like no time between points, so people aren't talking as much as they usually don't have time to like discuss strategy or pump up their partner, whatever. You're basically finishing the point and just saying setting the next play, that's it. So they're missing a trick there.
Speaker 2But I hope that they do that more because, again, that's something that would be unique to doubles and people watching at home can hear what these guys are discussing, what plays they're setting. I don't know, know the stress of the match how the guys communicate and stuff like that. It's all interesting and it's again, it's like a, it's a USP compared to to singles. So I hope that they do more of that and I hope that the players buy, buy into it, cause I think that's something that could really help them well, a few of harry's uh videos went like semi-viral, at least for doubles um from dc where he was miked up yeah, yeah, yeah, I felt I watched the first match, yeah, and it was really good.
Speaker 1He's a good person to mic up to because he's so entertaining and yeah, yeah, he's a different cat yeah, yeah, he's funny yeah um, but yeah, that's like it is. Uh, I don't remember who I was. Oh, I was talking with ben rothenberg about this. This was like over a year ago at this point, and he said he used the analogy of a petri dish, like using doubles as a petri dish, like a, an experimentation ground, so like I'm a big fan, personally, of allowing fans just to move around yeah like if everybody's moving you won't notice as much.
Optimizing Tennis Changeovers for Entertainment
Speaker 1If nobody's moving and somebody drops their water bottle like it's gonna mess up your service and like I know some players might disagree, but I'm like this is an entertainment sport like you gotta get over that. Yeah, 100 and they can experiment with micing them up, like you said. Yeah, uh, they interviewed um uh, calvin bet Calvin Benton during the Australian open final between the either first and second or second and third set.
Speaker 1So, like interviewing coaches, um, just getting more of that access, I think is a great idea, because what I've found, at least like growing my podcast and my audience, is this blend of strategy and pro tour. Like there's something there like a lot of strategy and pro tour. Like there's something there Like a lot of club players will start to watch the pro tour for strategy if they know what to look for.
Speaker 2Yeah, but they don't know what to look for. Yeah.
Speaker 1So there's a lot there, but I feel like using it as an experiment, like experimenting ground, can be something so like how to? What are the barriers to like implementing some of this stuff? They experimented last year a bit. I don't know how much of it even rolled over to this year.
Speaker 2No, they basically got rid of everything. Okay, and apparently it's just like this year we're going to. It's just about tournament schedule, like condensing the number of days and what days the doubles events are going to run from.
Speaker 1So that's the only thing they kept, basically.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think this year they made the decision. This is what we're going to focus on and leave everything else as is. So let's see, I mean I keep pushing for the changeovers because I just think, like you know, like people's, you know, in a world where people's attention spans get less and less like, why are we trying to do whatever we can to increase the amount of time on court and stuff and well, you see it on the court like y'all y'all are on the changeover and then y'all are up ready to serve and the ball kids are still standing in the service spots, tour finals, like it's a disaster for that as well.
Speaker 2Like you players are standing there in the dark, like at the baseline. Like it's like guys like, come on, let's get this going. Yeah, like it's yeah, just make it a bit more dynamic and I don't know, a bit more yeah, just punchy. Like yeah, but you know, that's easy for me. Like that, that stuff is like a no-brainer.
Speaker 1They should just they should just be doing that. Have you heard an argument for, like why they don't do this stuff? Is it just tv?
Speaker 2yeah, yeah, I assume it's probably TV advertising and stuff.
Speaker 1They say they're not making money on doubles so what TV advertising? I don't know. I'm looking for answers, Jamie. I'm looking for answers Alright. Well, let's wrap it up. Maybe we can do this again down the road at some point. This was a ton of fun. I appreciate you taking the extra time.
Speaker 2No sweat, no sweat.