Doubles Only Tennis Podcast

Andy Fitzell Interview: Knowing Your Partner's Brain Type, Learning as a Coach, Serve Changes, & More

• Will Boucek • Episode 279

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0:00 | 29:39

Andy Fitzell is the coach of rising US doubles stars JJ Tracy and Robert Cash. I spoke with Andy at Indian Wells to unpack how a pro team actually prepares, competes, and keeps improving when the margins are almost invisible.

We dig into scouting, training plans, partner psychology, and what tennis needs to change for doubles to get the attention it deserves. 

  • Match-day practice and routines at Indian Wells 
  • The use of film for both scouting and technical improvement
  • Learning doubles through Vic Braden, Steve Smith, and other coaching mentors
  • Developing JJ and Robert as individuals and as a team
  • Using brain typing to tailor coaching, improve communication, and reduce friction 
  • Changing serve technique and improving net play with video, rationale, and practice
  • Why change feels hard, and how daily reps overwrite old habits
  • Managing expectations after breakout results and staying with the process
  • Learning from losses by reviewing video and spotting repeatable patterns
  • The doubles scoring system and what could make doubles more popular

Andy is a walking encyclopedia of tennis knowledge, so I'm sure I'll have him on again in the future. Be sure to watch JJ Tracy and Robert Cash on Tennis TV and TC Plus this year!

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Learn more about Andy & follow:

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Indian Wells Intro And Camp Invite

SPEAKER_01

You're about to hear my final conversation from Indian Wells, this time with coach Andy Fitzel, who was there coaching ATP Doubles team, JJ Tracy and Robert Cash. He's been with them for a couple of years. But before I get into the conversation, a couple of quick announcements. Two tennis camps, doubles camps that I'm hosting are coming up, and the deadline is very soon. So in the Dallas Fort Worth area, April 11th and 12th, I'm hosting a camp. I'm going to link to that in the show notes. And then April 18th and 19th, another doubles camp in Miami. So I'm going to be teaching you how to poke, how to move at the net, some of the best shots and tactics for 3.0 to 4.0 level doubles. So if you're in the Dallas Fort Worth area or in the Miami area, or you want to fly in for either of those camps, you can check out more information in the show notes, or shoot me an email if you have any questions about getting hotels or flight information when you should fly in, all that sort of stuff. So just reach out if you have any questions because I do have a few spots left in each of those. So let's dive into this conversation with Andy Fitzel. As I said, he coaches JJ Tracy and Robert Cash, a rising ATP Devils team, an all-American Devils team. They both played college tennis at Ohio State. And we recorded this in kind of a quiet area of the Indian Wells tennis garden upstairs in the player area. So you'll notice that we talk a bit softly during this chat. I asked him what a typical match day looks like, what does the warm-up look like? I also asked him who taught him about doubles. He talked about some of the all-time great coaches and what he has learned from them over the years. I also asked him how he thinks about developing JJ and Robert as players and then also developing them as a team. He discussed brain types, which is kind of strange for a tennis podcast, but once you hear Andy explain it, you'll understand kind of the importance of really getting to know your doubles partner's brain type, or if you're a tennis coach, getting to know your player's brain type so that you can deliver information and interact and engage them in the right way. After that, we discussed changing a serve technique, managing expectations, going into what is a new year for JJ and Robert in terms of level. He talked about how at the beginning of last year they didn't have a whole lot of expectations with it being a kind of breakout year for them. We discussed how to learn from losses, specifically the quarterfinal loss at the Australian Open. Then we talked about how he learned as a tennis coach and of course how to make it doubles more popular as well. So without further delay, enjoy this conversation from Indian Wells with Coach Andy Fitzhill. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. We're back at Indian Wells this time with Coach Andy Fitzhill. Andy, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00

Hey, good to be here, man.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, thanks for coming on. Um so you're here coaching uh JJ Tracy and Robert Cash, who uh will have their first round coming up later today. I want to get to tennis, but first let's start with golf. Who won golf yesterday?

SPEAKER_00

Definitely not me. I think after my uh I think I took on my second or third swing, I uh tweaked my neck or something, some kind of spasm happened. Oh no. But I know I was out there just enjoying the sun, and but I would say uh it was probably pretty close, but both of the guys play very good golf, actually. I was impressed. Yeah, they can hammer it.

SPEAKER_01

Really? Yeah, but I believe they can hit it far, but sometimes the tennis players can't really hit it straight.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, exactly. Every once yeah, we there was probably a few houses or dogs that were that were disrupted, but at risk. Yeah, overall, we uh got a few holes in, which was good.

Scouting Film And Simple Execution

SPEAKER_01

Um, so what does a day like today look like for you where the match is a little bit later on in the day? Talk about your when do you wake up? Do y'all do like a team breakfast? When do you warm up, all the all the details?

SPEAKER_00

I think typically we we would maybe do more of a team. Both the guys have their girlfriends with them, and and it was Robert's birthday yesterday, so I know he was out with his girlfriend, and so we kind of did our separate thing last night, had some god little team building yesterday with everybody on the golf course, but then uh today they're coming in a little later, probably around 12 or so. And uh we have warm-up at four. So I'll still do a little bit of of film work, maybe go through a few things with them as well before practice and then practice and then uh yeah, just get ready. Unfortunately, we don't really have a not before time, so it'll just depend on how the matches go beforehand. But expecting to play under the lights tonight, which will be fun. Last match on you know, pretty big stadium, stadium three, so it'll be cool.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Um, when you say film work, is that scouting or is that like tweaking things for JJ and Robert?

SPEAKER_00

No, more of scouting. Scouting we've we've already done a lot of film work. Um you know, did some yesterday, but you know, just go through maybe a few other things just to hit a home. But really, in the end, it just comes down to executing basic shots. As you know, the margins are so small, especially in doubles where it's modified scoring. It's not even real tennis in some ways. So just anything can happen, and and uh you just want to make sure that you're clear on any kind of you know specific plan and a lot of different things.

Warm-Up Timing And Key Patterns

SPEAKER_01

But yeah, sure. Um what will the warm-up look like today before a match like this?

SPEAKER_00

Well, pretty typical, you know, nothing nothing too different, just just getting loose and and then there may be a a few extra uh things that will work on it, you know, maybe a few patterns just to make sure, okay, practice this and this. I won't give away too much, but yeah, yeah. But uh yeah, pretty typical, and then maybe just a few extra things that they need to do during their match that how long do they like to warm up before matches? Is it like 30 minutes, 45, an hour? Uh good question. I think that depends on player to player. I would say not too close to the match time. I think they'd rather not be rushed and and be able to, you know, prepare mentally, physically, make sure all the gears in order. So you know, we're going four o'clock, but it that could be three hours before they play, just depending on how it goes. But you know, in those kind of situations, if you need to warm up a second in time, you know, you usually typically can do that.

Learning Doubles From Vic Braden

SPEAKER_01

So who taught you the most about doubles?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that's a good question. I I think overall, you know, my mentor Vic Braden, but I've been lucky to be around coaches that either worked with Vic or um, you know, Steve Smith is another one, my I would say a big mentor of mine who spent time with Vic as well. He was also mentored by Welby Van Horn. You got Welby's wall out here, so you know, his balance system, Dennis Um Vandermeer as well. So I've I've learned a lot from both Vic and Steve, you know, as far as uh the application of doubles, but but mainly from Vic. You know, he has a great video that I'm not sure is on YouTube or not, but it's called Go for a Winner. And it was you know filmed in just one take. And you know, it's it's about mixed doubles, but it's it's really just doubles. And there's a ton of good information there. It's really just timeless, you know, the the things they're wearing, the clothing is all from the you know, late 70s or early 80s, but but the information there is timeless, so it was a good foundation, and then his books as well. So those would be the main the main people that uh learned from.

SPEAKER_01

I'll try to see see if I can find that on YouTube. If not, I'll link to some of his research.

SPEAKER_00

If you don't, I can get it to you somehow. I've I've got a copy of it. But uh, you know, the tennis channel owns Vic's library now, and and they're supposed to be working on getting more things out there, you know, as far as the copyright goes and all that. But I but I know there are some channels out there that have a lot of Vicks work. So it's worth searching, yeah.

Coaching JJ Tracy And Robert Cash

SPEAKER_01

Um so I want to talk about JJ and Robert's kind of development. Um when did you start working with them exactly?

SPEAKER_00

So in I think it was around 2022. Okay. Because I worked with quite a few buckeyes in the past. But so I got connected with JJ to go help him with his serve mainly, and then we ended up working kind of on everything, but mainly with his serve. Kind of did a whole revamp on that, got to know him, and then you know, once they graduated, you know, I've been working with a couple other uh WTA players in the recent past, and then they asked me right around Wimbledon if I could come over and help him out, and then right after that they asked if I could help them, you know, as much as I could, because I'm based in Germany and you know have to kind of manage my family life as there as well. But I'm trying to get to most of the big tournaments with them. So yeah, since Wimbledon last year.

SPEAKER_01

How do you think about you mentioned uh tweaking or or or changing JJ's serve. Um, then of course, you know, you've got Robert and then you've got the team. How do you think about developing each person as a doubles player and then developing the team?

Brain Types And Partner Communication

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So I mean, each each person, we've gone through brain typing, which is something I learned through Vic Braden and the Need Noggles. John Neednogle has been doing brain typing, and he what he does and his son Jeremy, they do, for example, they help draft um players for the NBA, MLB based on their brain type. Like, for example, they'll go like you never give this guy the ball in the last seconds because of the way he's he's wired. You know, he won't be in the moment, he's gonna be more in in the future. Um, so you know, we we go through that a little bit, like, okay, here's how you kind of view the world, see the world, but it also comes down to motor skills, you know, where you're fine, motor skilled or gross motor skilled, or a mix of of both. So understand I've helped them understand their brain type, and then that can help them how they you know organize their life, but also how they do things from a you know a physical standpoint with their body, and it helps me be able to help them with certain things. And then team-wise, you go, okay, well, here, you know, here's Robert's personality type, and you know, he's gonna like structure and organization and closure to things or needs that, and JJ's more go with the flow, you know, he can wing it and stuff like that. But if they understand each other, then that helps them, you know, as a team to go, okay, you know, I understand you need this and you need this. So that helps them jive as well, uh, which is good. But as far as the tennis side goes, yeah, I mean working on basics with both of them, and and they both have their strengths and weaknesses, which is great, you know, because they can offset each other in certain areas, and then the idea is just to, you know, be well-rounded, you know, both on and off the court.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it it's interesting when I ask when I talk to coaches about um developing players, it it seems like a lot of the best coaches don't start with tennis. So your your first answer there was figuring out their brain type. Yeah, yeah. Which has you would think like has nothing to do with tennis, but it's like, well, we actually need to know this to figure out how you can best train and perform and develop yourself. And it makes a lot of sense once you get it, but it's surprising, you know, once I started this podcast and started interviewing some of the top coaches like yourself, hearing some of those answers, I'm like, oh, I can't just focus on the tennis court. I need to learn some of this other stuff too.

SPEAKER_00

For sure. I mean, especially at this level, a lot of the, you know, the relationship and the interpersonal skills and all that kind of things, communication. And so, you know, if you figure, okay, if someone's an introvert, you talk to an introvert a little bit differently than you would an extrovert, you know, or someone that needs like Robert, you know, if you need a you need a plan and structure, it's like they want to know the plan and structure, what are we doing? And and then to help somebody like that, hey, you know, if if the plan on the court doesn't go so well, you gotta be able to just, hey, let it go and and adapt. And then maybe for someone like JJ, it's like, hey, you gotta learn to be organized, you gotta, you know. Um, so and the whole goal with that again is not to put anybody in a box, but but to be more well-rounded. And then that brain typing, that's just part of the assessment that I would do with a player. You know, I did film them all their strokes from, you know, two or three different angles at the very beginning. And so you can go through areas where they're efficient or inefficient as far as their ball striking goes. First thing with that is injury prevention. So you want to just be as efficient as you can. And sometimes, you know, for example, with Robert Serve, it's something he's been wanting to work on. And it and it's it's tough, you know, making changes, especially at this level after so many years of playing. You know, the brain, you're really wired, but so he's in the middle of that right now making some changes. And then Jade is working on volleys and just, you know, improving his net game all around. As you know, he can knock the snot out of the ball, knock the yellow out of the ball off the ground. But you know, um, yeah, uh it all starts with really with how how they do things physically, mentally, and then you know, the character side of things was something that I've learned a lot from Steve Smith about. And just, you know, obviously the best thing a coach can do is to try to be a living example, you know, where you try to set the tone on things that you would like people to do from a character aspect, but all those things come come into it. So yeah.

Changing Strokes With Video And Routines

SPEAKER_01

When you're developing like let's say Robert's serve or JJ's volleys, do you tell them, and it might be different for each because of their brain typing different, but but how do you um create kind of a plan to develop that thing? Is it like Robert, we're gonna actually spend a higher percentage of practice time on your serve? Or is it I need you to do this on your off days?

SPEAKER_00

Or uh how do you approach that? Yeah, no, I mean it starts with video that you can show them and then give them rationale, you know, that that'll make sense because it's all in the end physics. And then again, efficiency, you really just want the least amount of moving parts with the least amount of muscular effort. And so, you know, there's lots of different ways to skin a cat, but you know, are people efficient or not? But you start with that, and then it just goes, okay, you know, if you're dealing with most shots, you go, what do you do with your grip? What do you do with your swing? What do you do with your body? But then on the serve you add the toss. So you have grip, swing, body, toss, and then you can tackle, it's just a good way to organize your your thought process where you go, okay, hey, we're gonna, we're gonna really work on just what you do with your swing. And this is the goal to go from this to this. And here's why. Or hey, we're gonna work on what the body does. And so we're gonna work on this. And then really, yeah, it just comes down to work ethic and and how bad you want it to make those changes. You have to continually use video, you have to continue to hit people over the head, you know, and then set people up with routines. So, I mean, even this week, yesterday, for example, our practice, Rob and I got here early in the morning just to get an extra 15-20 minutes before practice and just did some basic drills and shadow swings, and and you just have to keep chipping away at it. Because changing is really tough. You know, you really have to put a lot of time and understand that it takes reps to to overwrite the old program to get the new one. That's why most people don't change, really. The the pain of changing is oftentimes greater than the pain of losing. You know.

SPEAKER_01

100%. I mean, uh a lot of it's one of the reasons I kind of focus on strategy for the club players, is because for them to change their serve, like they probably just don't have the time to put in the reps to improve their serve. So, like if you've got your like pancake grip on your serve or whatever, it's like, you know, if you're only playing tennis three or four hours a week and most of that is match time, yeah, we're not gonna switch your grip serve. But I just want you to pancake it into their forehand or their backhand, and then we'll figure out the strategy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. You can go that way. I mean, for me, uh, even if you just get a few minutes here and there, just to just to get the information and you have to explain them, hey, this could take a long time, but if you can chip away at it, you know, five, ten minutes a day, 15 minutes a day, you know, you can get there. It it's a it's a tough thing because you know, with the club players, you talk about strategy, it's like, well, you know, a lot of times they don't know where the ball's going. Yeah. You know, so it's kind of like, you know, the strategy overall is really just get the ball back in or hit it, hit it deep through the middle if you can. You know, bait really basic things. And then, you know, the better your your toolkit becomes, then you can start to implement more tactics and strategy. But it it is tricky because because it's painful for for people to change. You know, when they first go to a continental grip on the serve, they end up you know with the same body position that they did with the pancake serve, which is facing forward. And then so when they first try continental, the ball just, if they're right-handed, hits the net post to the left. Yeah, with the other court. Yeah, because it's you know, the racket face is tilted 45 degrees more to the left with that continental grip change. So then they keep their body at a 45, then then it will point to the net, you know, to their target. But so you have to go through all those little things.

Expectations After A Breakout Year

SPEAKER_01

Talk about the journey that they've been on over the last year or so in terms of um their progression. Last year was a big year for them. Yeah um they made a run in Dallas where I first talked to them, and then obviously the US Open last year. This year they got to the third round of the Australian Open, based Brunoyers and Sebias again, which is a tough matchup. Um, so talk about kind of their progression and then what do they need to do to um kind of get over that hump and get to the next step.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the progression's been, I mean, obviously for them, great. The one thing about coming out on a tour, I mean, they they had little to no expectation, right? So they're really free mentally, just having fun. And then, you know, as they've moved up the ranks here, it's like you start to feel that, okay, you know, the expectations start to come, or maybe they oh, they want it a little more. And so that's something you have to really uh battle just to stay. You know, I kept telling them at the U.S. Open, hey, just stay in the dirt, you know, stay with the process. That comes from Gary Vaynerchuk. Just don't get lost in the clouds, just stay in the dirt, do the daily process, the work, and just try to get better.

SPEAKER_01

I like that.

SPEAKER_00

I used to follow his stuff pretty closely. He's cool, he's really motivational. He's cool. And so, you know, now, you know, this year, you know, they had a little bit of a result in Australia, you know, losing, but they've lost some matches, most all of them in three sets, and had some match points in Dallas, and and you know, so they're just they're aware of of some things a little bit more, and and so getting them to get that mentality of just, okay, let's let's try to enjoy it and and and have fun out there, serious fun, and not get too caught up in rankings and and you know, results. And that's that's tough for everybody. But but for them right now, it's a major focus and just to try to keep you know an even keel and keep the energy up and not let it go up and down. And you know, especially when the things get tight, you just you know, like we were talking before, is you know, doubles the margins are so thin and it's a modified scoring that anything can really happen, and you just gotta keep hanging in there.

Studying Losses And Thin Margins

SPEAKER_01

So just a couple more questions and then I'll let you go here. Um the I mentioned the the loss in Australia, um similar to the match in New York, uh the same opponent lost the first set, won the second set, lost in three. What do you do, or what did you do after the loss in Australia to try to learn from that and try to get them um in the mindset to believe that they can win that match next time?

SPEAKER_00

It's really just video, you know, you gotta go back to it and and look, see, here's what you did well, and then you know what happened in the game, you got broken. You know, there was a miss miss cue on the first point, and someone hits a good return, and all of a sudden you're down level 30, and you know, so it's like I said, the margins are so small, but but recognizing certain patterns, you know, that people do, and then you've got to try to either be better in that pattern or you've got to take it away. So, you know, I like Jack Kramer's line where he said, you know, if you look at your opponent and look at yourself, and if your strengths outweigh your strengths, then you go with your strengths. But if they don't, then you have to make people hit shots they don't want to hit. And so that's what it's all about. But yeah, going back to film and and you know, that's kind of the Kobe Bryant Mamba mentality where you just go, hey, let's just take a look. You gotta be, you know, it doesn't, it's not fun to look at your losses, but that's where you're gonna learn the most. I think Novak said that recently in an interview as well. It's just like, hey, you gotta be willing to go take a look and and figure out what you can do better next time. I think the belief is there, you know. They I think they believe they can beat anybody. It's just a matter of execution, you know, and they're so young, especially for the for the doubles side of things, you know, there's there's not many that are out there as young as they are, doing as well as they are. So they're still raw in a lot of wa in a lot of ways, but. But they're they're willing to do that kind of work and and and put in that time to to move forward. So yeah, next time hopefully we'll be ready for those guys to take that third set, you know?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. I mean the the takeaway for me with those matches that you've mentioned a few times is just how small the margins are in these matches. Like it it can be one one second kind of brain fart, and that's it.

SPEAKER_00

No, exactly. It's just tough because in a lot of matches, they like I said, a couple match coins, but those last five, ten minutes, you know, with the super breaker, yeah. It's like he just, you know, someone hits a net cord or okay, a double fault, or you know, whatever it may be, just and then all of a sudden the match is gone. You know, the nice part about the Grand Slams, at least you got the it's real tennis, you know, you got the scoring scoring system where it should be.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I was about to ask that. It sounds like you you really don't like the noad to end point.

SPEAKER_00

Uh no, are you yeah, exactly. I mean, it's I just think it's a it just dumbs down the sport and takes it.

SPEAKER_01

It certainly brings luck into play more so, right?

Making Doubles Easier To Watch

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I mean, uh, you know, I understand it as far as scheduling, and maybe it's exciting for the fans, but you know, the doubles guys, you know, they're not making as much money. And when it comes down to just okay, you know, you you travel to China and then lose in a third breaker is just a long way to go for the exercise. Um, two more questions here. How do you continue to learn as a coach? Well, things like this. You know, I I listen to a lot of podcasts, not only from tennis, but just different sports. Like, you know, I went through a bunch of Nick Saban videos with a guy the other day, you know, just the character side of things, and and you know, so a lot of a lot of reading, a lot of podcasts. That's I think the main source really these days, anyway. You know, there's videos out there. Obviously, you know my background with great-based tennis and Steve, where you did a lot of coach education, and and so there's you know, everybody's kind of making content these days, and some's good and some maybe not so good. But yeah, no, I'm definitely a lifetime learner. Like I said, you know, there's more to it just than the tennis. You've got to know you know the physical side, the mental side, you know, all those things come in come into it.

SPEAKER_01

How do you think or or what needs to happen from either the tours or these tournaments or the players to help make doubles more popular?

SPEAKER_00

I just gotta show it, you know. It's like this needs attention. I mean, I I get it, you know, the marquee players are always gonna pull it, but just like anything, where where you put the attention to it. So even if they made their own kind of channel, you know, it's like, but it's just sad, like if for example, like tennis TV at ATP 250, you know, you've got to log into some betting site to watch the match, you know, and even when they're right there and the cameras are there, it's like can't you just flip the keep it on, you know? So putting attention to it, I mean, everybody's got a story. I mean, look at Robert's story being, you know, with medical school, putting that on hold, and yeah, everybody's got a story, which is great. But you know, so it'd be nice if they just had some kind of team set up that would really just follow the doubles guys because it really is fun, a lot of action, and and you know, think of all the club tennis, it's mainly doubles, you know. So I know there's a a fan base for it, but you really have to market it. So it'd be nice if they get more attention. And you know, it comes down to the players maybe trying to put out content or whatever they're trying to do, that TikTok or Instagram, but that all takes time and energy as as well. So it's not easy to do. And you got to deal with, you know, people's comments and that kind of stuff where it can get pretty ugly, and and that's an energy zapper as well. So it's poison. Right. Cancer. So it's not an easy answer, but yeah, I wish they would go back to regular scoring. You know, just keep it true and then and then yeah, get a little more marketing behind uh doubles and and and the people that play it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. But my understanding is the players, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I I think the players don't have access to post their own highlights.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's very, yeah, very, very little. Yeah. So that's a perfect example. They, you know, all the alphabet soup of tennis that are trying to control things. It's like if they just realize the more content you could put out, the more tension it's gonna get.

SPEAKER_02

Sure.

SPEAKER_00

So you know to me, those things are kind of no-brainers.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's not that complicated. Yeah, it's not that kind of like, hey, just you know, people are having to take little snippets from their, you know, from tennis TV or whatever and trying to do it, and hopefully they don't get some kind of copyright strike.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I've I mean, I've had a few myself. Yeah, right, for sure. Yeah, it's not easy to do. So you have to you have to be careful. Yeah, exactly. You know, I filmed here. Vic Braden and I did a a project on Stadium Court. We had three cameras that I ran all day for 10 years. And you know, so we've got hours and hours of footage, but we're not really allowed to use a lot of it publicly. So same thing.

Final Thoughts And Goodbye

SPEAKER_01

I've been dealing with that forever. Awesome. Andy, this was a ton of fun. Um, hopefully we can do it again in the future. And best of luck uh this week at Indian Wells. Sure, and I appreciate it. And hopefully your listeners got something out of it.