The Behavioral Design Podcast

Self-Applied Behavioral Science with David Perrott

November 18, 2020 Samuel Salzer Season 1 Episode 4
The Behavioral Design Podcast
Self-Applied Behavioral Science with David Perrott
The Behavioral Design Podcast
Self-Applied Behavioral Science with David Perrott
Nov 18, 2020 Season 1 Episode 4
Samuel Salzer

This episode is a conversation with David Perrott focused on the fascinating world of self-applied behavioral science. This means what we can do with the tools and insights of behavioral science to better our own lives.

David is the perfect person to speak with on this topic. He's a leading behavioral science practitioner based in South Africa with extensive experience working at the intersection of applied behavioral science and design. And David has also developed Circles in Time, a comprehensive and systematic framework to help individuals apply behavioral science learnings to their personal and professional lives.

We had a great conversation discussing Circles in Time, of course, and all things self-applied behavioral science. From advice on how to set up a personal system to goal setting and running self-experiments. You'll also get to know which South African business has the best must-see commercials. Fun stuff indeed. I hope you'll find it as enlightening as I did.

Show notes:

Show Notes Transcript

This episode is a conversation with David Perrott focused on the fascinating world of self-applied behavioral science. This means what we can do with the tools and insights of behavioral science to better our own lives.

David is the perfect person to speak with on this topic. He's a leading behavioral science practitioner based in South Africa with extensive experience working at the intersection of applied behavioral science and design. And David has also developed Circles in Time, a comprehensive and systematic framework to help individuals apply behavioral science learnings to their personal and professional lives.

We had a great conversation discussing Circles in Time, of course, and all things self-applied behavioral science. From advice on how to set up a personal system to goal setting and running self-experiments. You'll also get to know which South African business has the best must-see commercials. Fun stuff indeed. I hope you'll find it as enlightening as I did.

Show notes:

Disclaimer: This transcript is taken directly from conversion software and likely includes several typos and faults. 

Samuel Salzer  0:02  
Welcome to another episode of The behavioural design podcast by habit weekly. My name is Samuel Salzer, and I'm your host. This episode is a conversation between me and David Perrott focused on the fascinating world of self applied behavioural science. This means what we can do with the tools inside of behavioural science to better our own lives. And David is the perfect person to speak with, since he's not only a leading behavioural science practitioner, based out of South Africa, with extensive experience of working at the intersection of applied science and design. But David has also developed circles in time, a comprehensive and systematic framework to help individuals apply pure science learnings to their personal and professional lives. We had a fantastic conversation discussing obviously, surfacing time, but much more and covering all things self applied behavioural science, from advice on how to set up working personal system to optimise and goal setting, and how to run self experiments. You'll even get to know which South African business has the best must say commercials. So this was indeed great fun. I really enjoyed speaking with David, he's one of the most insightful and thoughtful people in the field. And I really hope that you'll find this as enlightening as I did.

Welcome, David, very excited to have you on board. 

David Perrott  1:42  
Thank you, Sam. It's an absolute pleasure and honour to be here. Thank you for having me. Yeah, my pleasure. 

Samuel Salzer  1:48  
And I'm excited to have you on here as we always have great conversation. So it's great to have one where we can actually record and share that as well. So it's gonna be fun. 

David Perrott  1:57  
Yeah, looking forward to it. 

Samuel Salzer  2:00  
So I'm just going to jump straight in here, and pretty much going to your beginnings in the field. So you know, it said that all roads lead to Rome. But I would say that all roads definitely don't lead to be able to science. And more often, they are more like random trails and small paths rather than paved roads. So I'm just curious, my first question being, how did you get started in applied science? 

David Perrott  2:25  
Yeah, I definitely have one of those paths, less travelled. So I think, when I initially get got into it, if I started the very beginning was, during my studies, something personal happened, my father had a bit of an incidence, he actually basically damaged his frontal lobe had a stroke, and how I dealt with that, that sort of process was just by trying to understand what had happened to him. And so I, I kind of went on this big learning journey in order to understand how the brain works, how he was forming decisions, he had sort of damaged the the left side of his prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for planning and, and language and judgement and that sort of thing. And so, that kind of took me down this rabbit hole that I really, I suppose I've never come out of, just to kind of understand how the brain worked. The learning process, you know, the way his brain rewired itself in order to, you know, get him back to a typical states, which, you know, I'm thankful he has, and well, you know, while I was on that, that sort of path, I, I came across people like Daniel Kahneman, and Dan Ariely and, and others and just the thinking around cognitive biases and how we form decisions. Yes, fast and slow thinking. And so that's, I think that's where I kind of deviated off the the sort of typical path initially, and was kind of just thrown offered in that regard. But what that then led me to was, I went from that into my sort of post grad studies. And while I was there, I was doing internships and, and that sort of thing at agencies and consultancies. And I developed, you know, through this kind of self education, this understanding of behavioural economics, which is really the branch of this thinking that was strong at the time. And I was asking everyone, you know, during those, you know, during those periods, about behavioural economics about this thinking, and everyone sort of saw it as something that was interesting, something that they enjoyed discussing and talking about, but no one was actually applying it in any systematic way to solve problems. And so when I'd finished my studies, I said

Set up a company with a few, you know, sort of fellow students. And we really just were looking at this one question which was around how we could take the thinking. And the ideas that were sort of emerging out of this new field, this was in 20 2013, big end of 2013, early 2014. And how we could apply that in a more systematic way to solve, you know, business and policy problems. And so that that was the kind of bet that we took, and how we got going there was we just because we didn't have any credibility or experience or expertise at the time, we just went and offered our services to, you know, on a pro bono basis to, to nonprofits, NGOs. And we just said, Look, we've meshed together this theory based on what we've learned from J PAL and BIT, and n ideas42 and others. And, you know, it's a very theoretical the time and we just wanted to kind of put it into practice and see how it actually worked. And so we did this with a few different with a few different clients. And fortunately, some of those projects took off, one of them for any sort of UK lessons that you have, was with the big issue. And fortunately, you know, that that turned into a really successful case study, and a really good application of that process or that framework, it actually led to us winning a Grand Prix at night stock A few years later, but it just showed us that, you know, prove to us that there was something to this process and this framework of taking these insights and these ideas and applying them in, you know, in a structured systematic way to solve problems. But what it also did was it gave us these, you know, these case studies that we could then go to clients, engage with, show them the process the framework, but also show them how we were applying it, you know, in the real world. And so that really got company going gravity ideas, and yeah, since then, have has just kind of become, I suppose, a real part of who I am and what I do. So yeah, I hope that's enough context. 

Samuel Salzer  7:16  
Yeah, that's amazing. And so I guess what I'm curious about is that, it sounds like it started in a very, you know, deep, personal level, obviously. And how, how is that today? Given you know, at the start of it, obviously, was that kind of made it really curious about wanting to understand this better. How personal do you feel like being a behavioural scientist is today? Because I'm going to come to that a little bit more later. But I'm just curious to explore this idea of whether we put on the hat to go to work, so to say, and some in some jobs, that's a very different thing, you can kind of go to the office, and then check out at office, and you might not think too much about work, because it doesn't really have much to do with your personal life. And, and there's no much of a overflow there. Yeah. So how is that for you today? 

David Perrott  8:07  
Yeah, no, I mean, it's, it completely disrupted me to the core, I mean, just going through that process of having to basically rebuild my entire worldview from scratch, you know, because of that experience, because of just the sort of the incidence and, and the way that I had to then take on new models of the world new ideas, new, new mental models, in order to make sense of the things that had happened to me and the things that were that the sort of knock on effects or consequences that resulted from that meant that behavioural science really got in, in my kois, but as hard said, is, it really sort of became the way that I used to sort of make sense of all the decisions, both in my professional life and my personal life, and, and that lens just just sort of got reinforced and really integrated into everything that I was doing, you know, from that day forward. So it's, yeah, deeply integrated into into my life. And I'd say that spills over into to all the different personal aspects that I think about today and to my aspirations and the way that I'm engaged and with others in relationship and community and family. It's Yeah, it's, it's not one of those things that you can just leave at the office door and you're, you know, and you're way off, it's stiff. And I think that you'll see that with a lot of people in the field is that they are thinking about these sorts of things, outside of their professional capacity that it is part of their personal lives to 

Samuel Salzer  9:52  
I do find it very interesting to explore this idea of how personal life is affected by behavioural science and behavioural scientists.And so on in a real way, not that kind of phoney read peoples minds kind of thing. And so, to that, I'm just curious to them ask you about self applied side of behavioral science. So obviously, you mentioned, you know, this was a very close at heart because of a family member. And how have you thought about, because it was a big part of what you do is today also exploring this idea of self applied behavioral science? And I'm guessing part of it was also discovering how behavioral science specifically in your own life, and how how you could change your own life with behavioral science. How did that kind of happen for you? 

David Perrott  10:40  
Yeah, sure. So the supply side is something that I've been exploring for a long time, in an informal way, in just in a way of me sort of running experiments on myself and thinking about designing my environments in order to shape my behaviour. But it was, it was a more sort of playful thing. But then I think, so towards the end of 2019, I stepped back at this point that, you know, close my previous consultancy, and I had some time to just step back and think about the field more broadly, and look at the landscape of sort of what was going on, where's the field come from hazard evolved? What are the opportunities going forward? But then also, what are the risks? And what are the downsides. And through that piece of analysis, I realised that if we think about growth, there's a lot of growth on this kind of dimension of adoption. And there's a lot of potential there just in terms of people adopting the behavioural science toolkits, and deploying it in different areas. You know, from the public sector, we've seen a lot of growth, you know, from government level down to local sort of team and district levels, and also the private sector, and, you know, from product teams through to marketing and growth teams, through to operational teams. And so we're seeing this sort of this widening, sort of growing adoption of that toolkit. But what I realised was that there seems to be a little less growth in the area of innovation. And I was curious to why that was that was happening. And, and one of the things I realised there that there's this kind of tension that's occurring, as a result of as a result of the fact that the technical developments that need to occur in order for the field to move forward, are constrained by a growing concern around the ethical side of things. And so maybe as an example, what I mean by that is, you can take an issue like the moving away from a one size fits all approach to one that's more heterogenous, or one that's more that accommodates cultural variability, or people different people's ideas increases. And so you might think about a solution to that is something like personalization, right? tailoring creating persuasion profiles for individuals, so that we can craft interventions that are particularly influential to them within particular contexts. But as soon as you go down, start moving down that path, what it means is that you're acquire a lot more data. And as a result of that, you bring in a whole nother level of ethical considerations that you didn't have before. And so I think, for me, that's a nice example of where you have this technical growth path that's then constrained by ethical considerations. And as a result, that tension, you create, you know, what I call a local maximum, it becomes harder and harder to innovate in a space like that, because of the tension that's created between those two dimensions. And so, in identifying that what I thought about was right, what are the other areas that are worth exploring on the behavioural science landscape, just in case those kind of constraints creates a sort of paralysis that don't allow the field to move forward in a constructive manner there. And one of those areas that I thought was really interesting was the self applied space, particularly for three reasons. The one reason was that it was, as a result of it being a lot more decentralised, meant that there was a flexibility that existed that you don't get with this kind of centralised third party approach that meant that you can explore different changes to environments that you couldn't necessarily explore. If you were, you know, going from a government perspective, you know, to take the other end of the spectrum, the second area was around moving from sort of static to dynamic behaviour. So once off behaviour change to ongoing recurring behaviours that we want to turn into routines or or ritual

Unknown Speaker  15:00  
Or habits. And then the third area was around second and third order effects. So not just thinking about the behaviour change itself, but what are the second order consequences that are the externalities, and all those things seems much more interesting and or even achievable and practical to sort of study and understand when you were looking at them through an individual lens, as opposed to, you know, through a third party lens. And so the question I asked myself was, can you take the toolkit that we've been using and crafting, you know, over the last decade or so, with governments and with companies, and build that into a structure into a framework into a set of tools that you can provide to citizens or individuals so that they can shape their own choice environments, and set up feedback systems so that they can learn and grow and understand what works for them in order to improve themselves? resolve their self control challenges? And, and, and achieve their goals? And so really, that's, that's the self applied area that I'm really interested in? And I suppose that's a bit of context around how I got to that point. Yeah, that's great. And it's very much music to my ears, it's really fun to hear how you laid it out. And, and obviously, that leads very naturally into what I'm really excited to talk about, actually, which is your programme of like, form circles in time. So could you maybe briefly introduce serve some time and kind of explain what it's about? Yeah. So circles in time is, is the initiative that I've set up to kind of answer this question around, you know, if we did take the sub softplay behavioural science Seriously, what could that look like practically, and so that the real purpose there is to create an initiative that takes the frameworks, tools, and also communities and puts that into a structure that allows people to solve these recurring self control challenges. Right. So at the moment, how it's, you know, sort of concretely how it's structured is it's, it's an online programme that people move through, where they learn about their own biases, they set up their own goals, they think about their own psychology. And then they take the toolkits that, you know, we've bought up over the past few years, from applied behavioural science and think about what sorts of interventions might be helpful in order to change their own behaviour. And then they're running an experiment in themselves to see if that's working, iterate, you know, adapt, and at the end make a decision as to whether that's something they want to integrate into their life more permanently, or something they want to just change or drop. And then the second component to that is a community that had been set up just to share learnings and practices and create accountability between individuals who now have this toolkit understand how to use the tools and want to do it on a more sort of regular basis. So practically, that's the initiative. And yeah, it's, it's still very much in its infancy, you know, it's been running for eight months now. And I've run the programme three times, going into the, the fourth iteration in just a week's time. But john, so far, so good. It's been an exciting initiative. I've learned a lot. And, you know, the participants have come up really happy with, with what they've learned and how it's changed their lives. So yeah, I'd say so far, I'm quietly confident that there's, there's, there's room to grow on their part. Yeah. And so full disclosure, I was, I guess, part of one of the first cohorts in this programme as well. And I was very much pleasantly surprised in terms of didn't know really what to expect, it's a little bit of a challenge, to be honest, to create something like this. And I think for me, as a practitioner, when I created the habit Canvas, this was kind of the idea behind it in some ways. But I would be honest, and said that how big Canvas is like the, I don't know, like, a super, super, super, super basic version of your credit. So I'm really thankful for for that you have put this together. It's, it's amazing. I really enjoyed going through it. And I guess what I'm really excited, but no, it's just nerding out on some aspects that you cover in the programme a little bit. So So one thing that I think it's interesting is that the first thing people usually think about when it comes to personal favourite change is goal setting. So I think we can come to goal setting soon. But it seems to me that one of the core ideas in certain time is use this idea of the importance of thinking systems. So before we get to goal setting, and so on, I guess I would just love for you to briefly talk a little bit about what it means to you to have a personal system and why

Unknown Speaker  20:00  
Perhaps systems are crucial for supporting us through a behaviour change journey? Yeah, that's a great question. And I think maybe just to, to define what I mean by a personal system, and then we can nerd out a bit about that. So, so when I, when I mentioned personal system, what I mean there is a structured set of activities, cognitive strategies, and environmental features that are organised into a sort of recurring loop that you move through in order to solve some sort of self control challenge. Right. So it's, it's not just the activity, or it's not just the knowledge, or the intervention, or the, you know, maybe some sort of mental shift that you put in place, but really, how the combination of those three components are organised in a structured manner, so that you know that you can solve that problem in a recurring way. And

Unknown Speaker  20:59  
I think recurring is an important point, because that's really the kinds of challenges that I wanted to tackle with this programme. So as opposed to, you can imagine one sort of behaviour changes things like adoption, right, buying a new house or car or opening up a bank account, whatever it might be, you know, that's an interesting kind of behavioural challenge. Now, this is good, important work to be done there in terms of decision making, and frameworks, and how to approach those, those behaviours. But for me, the ones that I think are really difficult, the high challenges in our lives are the ones where we need to get into this kind of recurring process of, of solving that problem, whether it be on on a daily basis, or weekly or monthly basis, and thinking about systems as a way to just get us into that, you know, into that rhythm or into that cadence. And systems, I think are important, because it shifts our mind to think about not just the activity itself, but also the environments and the features in the environment that we can integrate or, or balance with, in order to solve the problem. I think, often when we think about these sorts of challenges, we'll jump to solutions that regard things like willpower or motivation,

Unknown Speaker  22:24  
inspiration, and think about that as a way to solve these issues. And, obviously, you know, you know, just as well as me that those kinds of those kinds of mechanisms play a role. But But the fact is that willpower and motivation moves more like an A wave than, you know, in a consistent manner. And so you don't want to have to rely just on those aspects of yourself in order to solve these problems. And so by thinking about systems as a solution, you really just think about solving a problem in a consistent manner, you know, in a way, that just reduces the amount of variability that you get, and and also just lowers the likelihood that you're gonna, that you're going to fail. So yeah, that's what I mean, around systems. I mean, if you have any follow up questions on that? Well, I just what can help with just studying a little bit to how a system is built in some ways? So also as actually to answer questions that came in the chat, which was what I used the programme for. And I'll be honest, what I think is great programme is that I didn't start per se with a thing that okay, this is what I need to solve for.

Unknown Speaker  23:36  
But I think what's good was programmers can viewer more, it feels more like you're developing, again, a set of were thinking and it's all set, rather than the solution for a specific problem, so to say. And so what I would say though, is that I ended up focusing on exercise as my as my behaviour to through the work on and it was during this weird time, because I'm in Sweden, and we have had an interesting set of for the COVID regulations. And so this was when they opened up gyms again. And so I hadn't been at the gym for a couple of months. But that point, you spend every workout outside or at home, and then I was going to try to start going to the gym again, three or four times a week. And so this was in June, I think we're made. And the good news is that I've definitely made that work. So I think I've missed one gym session since June. And I'll partly honestly, credit Grizzly the programme for this. So this probably will help to set up me for success. But obviously I see a little bit because I know some of these things from before, but I really think the programme is great as well. So jumping a little bit more back into the programme. So I guess going back to goal setting, how do you how do you see goal setting, playing a part in building your system? Yeah, so goal setting is incredibly underrated and I also think misunderstood. So I think it's important first of all to

Unknown Speaker  25:00  
So just understand that goals are good and bad relative to the context in which you're using them. Right. So if you're thinking about, if you're thinking about goals in the short run, what you want to think about is being very specific, you know, getting concrete, very narrowly defining, you know, the specific behaviour that you're trying to change and really focusing on a behaviour, as opposed to an event or an outcome. Right. So thinking about what is the activity that you are trying to perform, as opposed to the the result and outcome that you're trying to achieve? That's important that can give you feedback as as to whether you're on the right path. But in terms of setting up the goal, it's important to focus on that behaviour and really narrow it down to a concrete civic action, you know, within a particular context, when you're thinking about the long run, I think it's actually better to, to just throw that sort of framework completely and think about ambiguous, fuzzier, broader goals, right, because, as we've learned from COVID, the future is inherently unpredictable. And, you know, as we know, from research around future selves, and being able to empathise with our future selves, people, I'm thinking of people like Dan Gilbert, and others, that have showed things like the end of history illusion, we really, over the longer run aren't very good at predicting what our values or preferences, what will make us happy is and as a result of that, it's important that we don't try and sort of forecast too narrowly. What it is, you know, we want to achieve over the course of a decade. And so I think when we're thinking about longer angles, we want to think about broader fuzzier funnels that still push in a particular direction, but don't, you know, focus narrowly on a particular object, whereas in the short run, focusing narrowly and very concretely on a specific action or behaviour that you're trying to write, and so what could be maybe illustrate this better? Or it could be an example of this, let's say, I can put myself in the scenario being the one who's let's say, let's say I wanted to improve my diet in some way.

Unknown Speaker  27:23  
How would you help me think about maybe setting that small funnel of sort? And maybe my smaller goals as well? Yeah. So on the longer run, you want to think about what's driving that. So. So getting down to the core motivated there, which is probably largely around half, there might be a few different dimensions of variables that are important there. So just acknowledging what those factors are that are driving that motivations, importance and thinking about which of those are likely to occur, or, or remain in place over the long run? Yeah, I like to use the example from from, from Jeff Bezos, we can ignore his kind of business ethics. But you know, he's a, he's a good thinker. And he's, he's well known for, for asking the question around, not what's different, but what's gonna remain the same, right? So what's going to remain the same over the long run is very important. So considering those aspects of yourself around health around longevity around your flexibility around optionality, those sorts of things, would be the things to consider on the longer run side, and then moving from that down to very specific activity that you want to put in place on a daily basis. And so from a health or diet perspective, you might think about, I think there probably three variables that you could think along the way one would be the amount of food the second would be the type of food. The third would be when you go by eating. So looking at something like fasting versus a typical three meal a day approach. And so what you then start getting into is the activities itself, what are you eating, when are you eating, and how much you're eating. And from that, you can then get to a very specific activity that you're performing in a recurring manner. And you want to set up your behaviour based goal statements to really demonstrate, you know, what that activity will look like. And the, the way I like to talk people to think about this is almost to get you want to be as concrete or specific, as if you were sort of orchestrating a choreographed dance. Right? So or, you know, another metaphor here is, imagine you're a director of a form and you're trying to describe to an actor exactly what you want them to perform, right. So to the act of opening up the fridge and taking out you know, the particular ingredients you want to get to that kind of micro scale.

Unknown Speaker  30:00  
Because what's that going to do, it's just going to kind of burn in that visualisation to your mind. And the thoughts actually shaping the way that you think about the activity. So when you're in the moments in a rush in the morning, you know, to make that smoothie on the way to work, you just have this kind of this this habit stack of activities, there's choreographed dance that you can just quickly move through in order to perform that activity. So it starts becoming a bit of an intervention in itself. That's great. And I love that frame of thinking about it as being the screenwriter, or a director of your own movie of sorts. Because yes, that's obviously how we see ourselves, we see ourselves as the star of our own movie. And what's interesting, I guess, is that we have those different roles within that as well. And I guess while we always want to put ourselves in the role, where we follow a plotline, let's say like some superhero episode, where where you're succeeding, everything's going great. We more often are also tend to write a script that maybe leads us to a different type of story, more of a struggle and frustrated type of story. And so it's very actually, I think, a powerful way of looking at it. So like you have the control in some ways to list with the things that you can control, to script that in a way where you know what to do. And you have, obviously, other parts of the programme is looking at how you can make the forces outside of you and within you, and so on to follow that path. So I love that metaphor. Yeah. And it actually ties into another aspect of the programme, which is around creating the scripts for particular failure scenarios, right? So not just creating the ideal scenario for this actor, but imagining that actor might fail, and what are the scenarios or states in which that actor fails? And, you know, this is typically an effect in the behavioural science world called pre mortem.

Unknown Speaker  31:59  
So what you're doing here is you're just hoping to understand what the problems are. But then as a result of that, because you know, you're doing this work pre the fair, they're actually occurring, you can start to think about what are the ways that I might lower the probability of that fairness state actually happening. And then also starting to think about if it does happen, what's the best response I could do as a result of that. So thinking about both preventative strategies, but then also these kind of, if then strategies, so if this failure state does occur, then I will do X or Y just gives you some tools to work with, both in terms of learning probabilities, but also an immediate activity that you know, is going to be helpful, you know, in this in this situation, that's you do forget to make that smoothie in the morning or run out of time or don't feel motivated, or we'll just get distracted. Right. So almost, in a way, both optimise for success, but also plan for risk of failure. Exactly. Yeah. And use those failure states to continuously sort of iterate and optimise for success. Right. So and I think that's another part that's really valuable that that's sort of missed with the third party model, is that because you are both the experimenter and the subject, you know, the researcher and the participant, you can learn from these experiences, update your systems. And as a result of that iteration, slowly get better and continuously lower the probability that you're going to get into, you know, fairness scenarios in the future. So it's kind of one of the participants put it nicely, he took the idea from from Nassim Taleb, which I think's called anti fragility, right, were failing actually strengthens the system. And I think this is a nice example of that, where because if you have a learning mechanism in place, what you do is you move through that process, you learn from that failure. And if you integrate the learnings from that into that system, you just lower the chances that you'll encounter that various days in the future. And as a result, bolder and more consistent behaviour that hopefully helps you achieve those goals. Yeah, that's great. I love that idea of bringing in the anti fragile part. Because, again, just to further clarify, that means, I guess is that if you have a box, but something that's fragile, if you check that box, you'll break it and it will become worse and worse, the more you shake, but when something like you describe something that's anti fragile, is a little bit like our muscles in some ways in our bodies, where if it's put on certain masters, they actually become stronger and become better and I guess it's still a little bit of a variance there in terms of if you put too much stress that you can still ruin it, but we're low the systems that we actually have in place, they sometimes like that and fragility aspects because we don't like you said we

Unknown Speaker  35:00  
Don't want to have the pre mortem. Yeah. And I think that's why having some sort of feedback mechanism is really important. So practically, what this could look like is just just taking the time to review your performance on a particular activity at the end of a week or every two weeks, where you step back, you you look at the activity that you were trying to put in place, you identify in a way you fell over the failure states that you you are trapped in. And as a result, you redesign your system going to the following week. And so, again, that's another benefit of this sort of recurring system like structure is that if you, if you can review it, and iterate on it, then it should slowly be getting better and better over time. I think that's Yeah, that's, that's also important because it does, I think it does get harder before it gets easier. Right. And this is something that's been interesting to observe a sort of pattern in the programme is that while participants are running their experiments, sort of around the third fourth week mark, there's, there's I think, one of the pluses was called the Valley of despair, where the motivation or the fuel or the novelty associated with activities kind of worn off a bit, and it hasn't really kicked into habit yet. And so there's this kind of mode where it's quite difficult to, to really go through the course of a week or so without failing once or twice. And so it becomes really important that you know, you have good systems in place at that point. Because that's really, whether it sort of make or break, whether it's going to move through and become something more permanent, or, you know, slip just into another sort of Year's resolutions, activity that you wanted to do, but just dropped off and didn't get ranted. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think that's that's a great way of putting it. And I think,

Unknown Speaker  37:00  
actually Now, before I go into rabbit hole and asking you some follow up question that actually we're going to move towards a segment, which will be the last segment before we open up for q&a. And so here, this item is pretty fun in many ways. And I would like to invite everyone listening in this as well. So it's called operator versus underrated. And what this pretty much means that it will be a quick fire round of questions where I will list a couple things and ask if you think those things are overrated, underrated, or correctly rated by society or that sort of field.

Unknown Speaker  37:34  
And I encourage controversy here. So if you have too many correctly rated answers, I might give you notes to be more contrarian. And so I obviously have some of these prepared, but if anyone listening have any ideas for some topic that they want to put forward to you and see if you think it's underrated or overrated, feel free to put it in the chat right now. But I'll start, I'll start. So I will first begin with mindsets. Growth mindsets, and more specifically, so mindset has component for behaviour change, overrated or underrated? That's the tricky one. I mean, it's, it's overrated in the research. But it's I think it's got so much potential we just need to figure out its its proper mechanisms, you know, of hard works. But in terms of the current research, I think it's

Unknown Speaker  38:28  
I will switch a little bit to some serious investors. So this will be perhaps a little bit lessors question, but I'm curious here. So the capital played a very famous performance in the movie Black Diamond, using a South African accent. So did you get it right? Was this performance overrated or underrated? overrated?

Unknown Speaker  38:52  
It was, it was terrible.

Unknown Speaker  38:54  
All right, effort, I suppose. But yeah. From a South African perspective, it's Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  39:01  

Unknown Speaker  39:04  
reading books for the purpose of becoming a better behavioural scientist. Books are really valuable in many ways, but can also be quite difficult to translate into action. So as a way to become a better naval scientist, you think it's underrated or overrated. So overrated? And I'd say that because a lot of the you know, a lot of the great thinking and as a gateway drug into the field, as a portal, I think it's it's important that plays that role, but we become way too reliant on it. And I think there's a lot of value to that just comes out of practising, you know, just taking an idea like an accountability, partnership or commitment device or, you know, even just a prompt or a reminder and actually going through the experience, putting that you know, in play in your own life and understanding what it actually feels like to

Unknown Speaker  40:00  
have that in an intervention influence you I don't think enough, enough work or thinking or attention is being put on that mode of learning. So so in that regard, I think, relatively, it's, it's overrated. Great. So we're moving to a territory that I happen to know, that you know a lot about. So is the DJ scene. And so for people, you know, I know that you're somewhat of a successful DJ, at some point, you can speak a little more to that, maybe, but what I wanted to ask you is, the Swedish DJ scene has quite a big reputation we have he is one of the mafia alesso so on, how would you rate the Swedish Did you seem overrated or underrated? I'd say it's underrated. Well, I'd say that just because you're trying to be nice to me, obviously.

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