Pleasure as God: A Conversation with Casia Sobolewski

In this intimate, laughter-filled, deeply honest episode, Melissa “Mango” from BodyJoy sits down with erotic educator, practitioner, and long-time collaborator Casia Sobolewski for a conversation that travels through motherhood, boundaries, non-monogamy, erotic integrity, and the sacred art of pleasure.

Together, they unpack how years of exploration, sex-positive community, and somatic practice have shaped Casia’s work with individuals and couples. They explore the evolution from youthful erotic curiosity to raising a family within an open, devotional partnership, and how that lived experience informs the immersive work she and her husband Cosmo offer today.

This episode touches everything from:

 • staying connected to desire through major life transitions
 • open relating while parenting and building a sacred partnership
 • the nuances of “taking” and “being taken” in heterosexual dynamics
 • why many women need tension, not collapse, for erotic polarity
• somatic cues, boundaries, and the physiology of “floppiness”
• men’s fear of doing it wrong — and how that affects intimacy
• porn literacy and re-sensitizing the body to real-time pleasure
• desire, fantasy, the Anatomy of Desire model, and honest reflection
• pleasure as a spiritual doorway and the portal-like power of erotic connection
• havening, presence, and the small sensory practices that open the body
• the axial age, the erotic mother, and why women’s boundaries are holy

Casia also shares a behind-the-scenes look at her and Cosmo’s upcoming offering, “The Art of Touching Women: How Men Touch & Why It Matters,” plus stories from years of leading immersive erotic retreats with Melissa—where deep nervous system repair, erotic awakening, and life-changing relational shifts take place.

This is a rich, layered, beautifully human conversation about embodiment, consent, relational devotion, erotic intelligence, and the sacredness of tending to your own pleasure.

FIND CASIA
Website: honeyandwater.ca
Instagram: @casiasobolewski
Himeros Project: himerosproject.com
The Art of Touching Women Course: April 29 - July 1, 2026

WORK WITH MELISSA / BODYJOY
bodyjoy.org

Transcript

Melissa D. (00:02)
Casia, thank you so much for being here.

casia sobolewski (00:05)
Mango, Mango-licious.

Melissa D. (00:08)
For those of you just joining us, ⁓ I do have a nickname of Mango and not everyone knows that, so I'd love that you're using it.

casia sobolewski (00:16)
Yeah, that's the only way I actually can refer to you. It's so weird to call you Melissa. So you are kind of a juicy little mango to me.

Melissa D. (00:19)
It is odd.

I'm more of a sensual fruit. You're right. ⁓ Speaking of sensual fruit, ⁓ you described yourself as, because I send out these fun little forms, even though I know you or know a lot about you already, but you describe yourself as a professional slut featuring integrity, boundaries, and God. So yeah, can you unpack what that phrase means to you specifically and maybe how you practice it in the world?

casia sobolewski (00:27)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah

⁓

Yeah, you know, in ⁓ the attempt to move away from capitalism internally in my own brain and body and being, the use of the word professional already is like, ⁓ but ⁓ when I reflect back on my life and all of the slutty behavior that I engaged in, it makes the most sense to say that all was just training.

Melissa D. (00:54)
Mmm.

It makes.

casia sobolewski (01:24)
for how I get to offer myself to the world now. ⁓ Being in present connection with the person in front of me and staying in my own integrity while supporting them through their own erotic journey. And to me, that is God, right?

Melissa D. (01:36)
Hmm.

Hmm.

It's funny.

casia sobolewski (01:50)
to not

lose yourself and stay in.

Melissa D. (01:53)
Yeah, and I imagine you use that interest in your relational dynamics, but also your professional.

casia sobolewski (02:02)
Yes, I mean, I would say that I feel so lucky to have ⁓ figured out a way to bring ⁓ my own slutty behaviors into the work field. What a gift, truly. So it works both ways. It works in my relationship with my husband, who is also a professional slut and also professionally.

Yeah.

Melissa D. (02:33)
I some of our listeners have a lot of question marks right now. I hope so too. As you were even saying that, a little thing popped up just that we hear, I hear in our culture of like, okay, well back when I was a slut in my early 20s, but now I'm this other older age and I have a family and children, I'm not a slut anymore. So I'm wondering like,

casia sobolewski (02:36)
Hope so.

Melissa D. (02:56)
How are you different back then? Because you have a big history of being a part of a sex positive community and actually being a pretty established educator like in your early 20s, if not younger. And so what are the main differences now as a mother, as ⁓ a professional ⁓ navigating life with your family and your husband?

casia sobolewski (03:18)
Ah, you know, I have so much gratitude for the slutty years of my 20s and prior, literally, probably from when I was about 15 onwards, because I feel that they allowed me to stay connected to that part of myself through motherhood. And I mean, I think that in my 20s,

I was looking for something and I felt closest to that something when I was in highly

intriguing situations. You know, when you when you bring erotic into the world with a stranger or someone you know, you're going into such unknown, interesting territory that never failed to deeply compel me. It didn't matter who it was. I was always learning something about myself or them. And being in that space, I just Yeah, I mean,

Melissa D. (04:20)
Hmm.

casia sobolewski (04:31)
I started online dating at 17. I lied. I lied about my age on the app so I could get on the app. And then it just became like, it became my favorite hobby, was just dating and hooking up with people and being like, what is this? What is going on? So when I became a mother, I actually had to undo some of what became like habitual pattern of just thinking that I needed to be dating.

because I was in a non-monogamous relationship. ⁓ When in truth, I actually, in motherhood, it's really sweet to go back throughout my journals. It's like, I'm gonna remember this phase of my life as the phase that I longed for myself. And so it became this recognition within myself that the time that it took to do online dating and meet random people in the world and have hookup.

Melissa D. (05:00)
Hmm.

Hmm.

casia sobolewski (05:27)
was actually taking away from the time that I was requiring with myself. If there was a window where I could have time, I actually just needed that with me. So that was the primary shift. But as a single person, you have so much time. A single, parentless person, there's a lot of time. ⁓ So much time. And now my time is limited.

Melissa D. (05:36)
Hmm.

my God, yeah. So much time.

Yep.

casia sobolewski (05:55)
I also am being very met erotically. And I know that that's a reflection of the work that I've put in previous to Meaning Cosmo, but also our own mutual interest in maintaining this connection with each other of recognizing that our relationship can offer more to both of us than either of us can do alone.

Melissa D. (06:22)
Hmm. Hmm. That sounds so sweet. Love that. So you and Cosmo, just just for our listeners, so Kasha and I are practitioners within the Himaros project and we all met actually at the training, sexological body workers training, somatic sex educators, like what seven almost eight years ago ish. Is my timeline correct?

casia sobolewski (06:24)
Yeah.

Yeah, it is really beautiful.

It was 2017.

Melissa D. (06:51)
Yeah, 2017 and then out of that, yeah, came this retreat that y'all put together and I was there in the early years and, so now, ⁓ you know, you and Cosmo are married now, how many years?

casia sobolewski (07:06)
I mean, almost the same amount. We got married like eight months later. We had been married for seven years.

Melissa D. (07:13)
Seven years. So yeah, so now you and Cosmo are raising a family and how do the two of you navigate this dance between sacred partnership, the open relating, parenthood, what keeps that strong bond amidst all of this? Cause some may see that as total chaos. whoa, a lot of layers there. Yeah.

casia sobolewski (07:35)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

How do we, well, you know, ⁓ I flirt with him a lot. And I think that probably helps. But that's just like a small piece of a grander practice, dare I say, right? It's the recognition that both of us wanted to do this work when we met, we were both at the training. I was already involved in sex ed, Cosmo got pulled in to be a practitioner almost immediately. we were...

Melissa D. (07:55)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

casia sobolewski (08:12)
It was just this foundation of our relationship that we had this understanding and agreement that we would be working erotically with other people. ⁓ At the time, Cosco was exploring his own relationship to non-monogamy and I had been non-monogamous for my whole adult life as soon as I understood the concept. ⁓ And it was something that I could offer him. I was like,

Melissa D. (08:19)
Hmm.

casia sobolewski (08:41)
sure you want to explore this part of yourself. Like I'm regulated enough around this that I can be with you in this and support your exploration. Interestingly enough though, was the sharing him with the children and the other ex-mothers and the boss that actually were the grander practices of non-monogamy. It's like, ⁓ there's some deep sharing happening here. And that the

Melissa D. (09:01)
Bye.

Yeah.

casia sobolewski (09:11)
the extra stuff, like the fun study experiences were just so easy and comparatively. ⁓ But it was only a couple of years ago that we kind of had this awakening moment of being like, wait a second, our work is non-monogamous. Like we are going into deep, erotic places regularly with other people. And that is non-monogamy.

Melissa D. (09:36)
Mm-hmm.

casia sobolewski (09:39)
And we had really clocked it as something that was taking energy from our relationship in that way, in the same way. So to have that acknowledgement was actually really important. It's like, okay, why do why does this feel draining to have other things happening outside of work? It's like, wait a second, it's because we're already sharing each other within this work experience. And because we work together, right, like I catch the women he just finger banged and

Melissa D. (09:48)
Mm-hmm.

casia sobolewski (10:08)
He catches the man, I just jerk off, right? It's like this weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically, you know, essentially comes down to, you know, after a lot of presence and care and attunement, you know, it comes down to. ⁓ Yeah, so it's been a practice and one that ⁓ we both have a deep sense of regulation around now with a lot of practice.

Melissa D. (10:13)
it is right yeah okay

Right, yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, I imagine it helped like you coming in with all of your life, you know, experience of non-mangami and then him being in this very curious place and the two of you coming together and doing the work as sex logic body workers in retreat, you know, doing partnered stuff. I'm curious about ⁓ your work with couples because you're doing immersions more these days. And tell me about...

Like what are some of the common ways? Okay, let me back up actually, because when you mentioned, know, Cosmo finger banging clients and you're jerking off the client, some people may look at our profession as sexological body workers as that. And sure, it may include full body touch and banging and fantasy and all this stuff. But let's get into like the deeper juice often, especially working with couples when they come to you or I.

and they're like, hey, we want to, have some curiosities or maybe there's something not quite working, but we're committed to the relationship or we want to take our intimacy to the next level. What are some things that you and Cosmo really like bring home for people? And yeah, can you go into that a little bit?

casia sobolewski (11:52)
Yeah, of course. I mean, I like, I throw the finger banging and jerking people off in there because I'm in this like anti-capitalistic medallion. It's like that is healing. Those things in themselves, if they're wanted and desired by someone are really healing. They're really healing experiences. ⁓ And of course there's so much love.

Melissa D. (12:11)
Yeah.

casia sobolewski (12:16)
that's there for that to even happen, right? If someone doesn't feel love in the room, it's gonna feel really different. ⁓ But for couples, I digress. ⁓ For couples, it's been really beautiful. ⁓ It's really such a gift to be a woman working erotically with men.

in where you are, you know, in contact with the most vulnerable parts of them. And you can see them in a wider scope than how our culture at large is currently seeing men. And there's there's so much I don't know if you also are getting this on Instagram or TikTok, but there's just so many jokes about like, unfortunately, I'm attracted to men.

Melissa D. (13:13)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

casia sobolewski (13:13)
And there's all the, right? Like it's this like,

fuck, I'm into men, but I don't want to be. you know, there's something really problematic in that. And I'm not, I'm not unacknowledging that, you know, there is work for men to do in these areas to ⁓ allow for deeper connections with women in their lives. But it's also, ⁓ it's not a one way street.

Melissa D. (13:42)
Correct. Yeah.

casia sobolewski (13:42)
It's a two way street, right? And

this inquiry of like, I'm aware of how beautiful my relationship with Cosmo is. And it doesn't mean that it hasn't been hard at times or that there hasn't been crunchy moments or that him learning about me and my body and my four week cycle doesn't interfere with him and his body and his 24 hour cycle, right? Like there's so many adjustments that we both make.

to kind of hold the other one in high regard. And I think that's probably the biggest piece is holding your partner in high regard. Even if you don't necessarily like that the way they're behaving, you still, you're like, are the person that I have chosen and that is worth something to me. And how I treat you in these moments is a reflection of me.

Melissa D. (14:15)
Hmm.

Hmm.

casia sobolewski (14:42)
Not of you, right? So ⁓ in witnessing couples, there's a lot of not that there's not a lot of ⁓ not high regard. There's the ⁓ you know, I I am a huge I love devotion. I love reverence. And if I can't have those in my relationship with the person I've chosen, then where the fuck am I going to get them? Right? Like

Melissa D. (14:43)
A thousand percent, yeah. Yeah.

Right. ⁓

casia sobolewski (15:14)
That's the altar that I return to. It's this source of love and companionship and high regard that we can return to. It's like, okay, the more we feed this, the more we give this our time and energy and effort, the more both of us are gonna get back from it. the balancing of, it's, often, this is the pattern, often it's women who want to be taken,

Melissa D. (15:32)
Thank

casia sobolewski (15:43)
And men who don't feel safe doing that because they don't want to do it wrong. And women thinking that they are doing it wrong, their partners are doing it wrong. So it's a very specific, like, I want you to take me a very specific way, which is not actually taking that service, right? And so the clarification of if you want him to take from you,

Melissa D. (15:46)
Yeah.

Yup. Yup. ⁓

casia sobolewski (16:09)
You first have to get very comfortable with your no and also recognize that taking isn't for you, right? Like the practice of being in that energy is for him, not for you. And if you want to be taken a very specific way that get clear about what your ask is, right? Like what does that look like for you? You to be pushed up against a wall? Great. You have to ask for that. You want to be tied up? Great. You have to ask for that. Like the...

Melissa D. (16:16)
for him.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

casia sobolewski (16:37)
the model, the flavor of what you want isn't necessarily him taking because that's for him. That's his own thing. So it's this practice of like allowing in a really authentic way where you can be clear and then also being in receipt that accepting tall wheel of consent.

Melissa D. (16:54)
I just got off a conversation with JD, who's a daddy dom, and we talked about some of this, where in a lot of hetero relationships, that dynamic pops up. She wants to be taken. He's feeling a little either just unsure and ungrounded or like what you were saying, unsafe, because maybe there's been some ruptures or something else that has happened. So how do you reestablish the trust again?

and figure out, well, yeah, what does taking actually look like and can you actually ask for it? And then I also in that same breath will hear women say something like, well, just do something to me. I don't want to map it out for you. But he's trying to get consent. So everyone's in this like space. Yeah, I'm sure you see that. Yeah. And so how do you personally resolve when that comes up or how do you work with that in an immersion container?

casia sobolewski (17:40)
Totally, yeah.

Melissa D. (17:51)
⁓

casia sobolewski (17:51)
Yeah, ⁓ one of the biggest somatic noticings is ⁓ women who want to be taken are floppy. They're physiologically, yeah, they're floppy. They're like, I'm waiting for you to do something to me, but they're not creating tension, right? Which is like standing in your own self. And if he's like pushing into you, giving him something to push against.

Melissa D. (18:04)
I'm picturing a... Yeah.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

casia sobolewski (18:21)
Right? Like it's really hard to like feel energetically like you can take from someone if they're just floppy, unless that's the agreement you have, right? It's like, okay, you're going to be a little doll while I explore you and you don't have any muscles and lie there. But in this exploration of taking, think tension is one of the most important things that we can discover as women. It's like, I don't have to submit to you in the way that I

Melissa D. (18:40)
Hmm.

casia sobolewski (18:50)
think I do, I can like offer you my power and feel you push against it and choose when I become a little floppier, right? Like there's the choice of tension. And so I regularly witness that where it's just like a very energetically floppy woman and then a man trying, trying to do something, but like working with a rag doll.

Melissa D. (18:59)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, come do something to me.

casia sobolewski (19:18)
Right? So that's a very common one where I'm like, have to give him, you have to like bring, bring yourself into this because if he, if he can't feel your, your no or your resistance, there's nothing really, it's hard to work with that. ⁓ and I, yeah, it is.

Melissa D. (19:32)
Yeah, it reminds me of dance. Like when you're

dancing with someone, actually have, as the follower, let's say, you have to give your leader, AKA Daddy Dom or whatever title you want to wear, you have to give them something, you know, the resistance. Yeah.

casia sobolewski (19:51)
Yes.

Yeah. Speaking of dance, this was like a peak experience I just recently had. Cosmo and I were at a wedding, close friends of ours, lovers of ours. And ⁓ the dancing time came and, you know, Cosmo and I have been in this somatic practice. That's not just fucking, but like a somatic practice for so many years, near daily experiences. And we fell into this.

Melissa D. (19:57)
Ooh.

casia sobolewski (20:22)
I don't even know. It was like power meets contact improv meets ritual play. And it was like, like every minuscule movement that he made to my body, I felt in aloud. And then when I wanted to bring my own something he felt in aloud and it was just like this gorgeous unfurling. And we got so many people come up to us afterwards and be like, do you teach this? Can you what?

Melissa D. (20:30)
Yum.

Yeah, can we learn that?

casia sobolewski (20:51)
What is this? What are you doing? It was a really interesting experience. I remember saying to Cosmo in that moment, like, are we like the best dancers ever? Or is that just me right now? But like, I'm not a trained dancer, right? Like I just, move in my body in a way that feels good. And I'm attuned to him and his movements and I trust him deeply. And so that, that experience unfolded in such a cool way. I was like, fuck, there's something here. We just, we just found something really cool.

Melissa D. (21:04)
Yum!

Mm-hmm.

I

love it. Beautiful.

casia sobolewski (21:23)
But it is like dancing for sure.

Melissa D. (21:26)
And yeah, how to take that lived experience, know, somatic people as erotic body workers and then translate or download that into people that come to you, us for that, that I hate to use download, but yeah, how do you, how do you get that and teach that? So then they can live that way, have that flowing dance versus like, okay, what are we doing? You know, which is

casia sobolewski (21:55)
Yeah.

Melissa D. (21:55)
so

common, unfortunately.

casia sobolewski (21:58)
Yes, yeah, totally.

that fear, the fear in men of harming their partner, it's so high, so high. And like, we want that, right? We want there to be a recognition that that's possible, right? We want them, I want my husband to know who is, I know could hold me down at the, you know, he's exceptionally stronger than me. Like I cannot fight him off. ⁓

Melissa D. (22:27)
Mm-hmm.

casia sobolewski (22:27)
I want to know that he knows that, right? That's an important thing. But in that is also like, can you titrate your power so that it's not lost? Like I want to feel you, but maybe not at 100%. Like give me 20.

Melissa D. (22:41)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

casia sobolewski (22:45)
Yeah.

Melissa D. (22:46)
Hmm, I love that. So I want to go into something you mentioned on your little form, the erotic mother and the axel age.

casia sobolewski (22:58)
the a-r-o-n-g.

The axial age. Okay, this is like, I'm so excited about this concept. So this was, yeah, I know. I'm like, I love it so much. ⁓ I'm almost embarrassed at how often I reference I learned this on TikTok, but I learned this on TikTok. Yeah, it was.

Melissa D. (23:06)
I love how your cans came together at your chest just as you said that.

Really? I got kicked off

of TikTok. So I love that you screenshot your TikToks and send them to me. ⁓ Yeah, got bounced out of there. They're like, we'll have none of that. Whatever you're doing.

casia sobolewski (23:25)
Ha

I know. Just

so the world knows that one of Mango's love languages is to send me reels. They're either Facebook or Instagram reels. And I'm so anti Instagram or Facebook reels. And I sent her TikToks. I'm like, look how much better this is. But she can't open them. So I figured out how to record my screen so that she can watch them. Anyway, that's my love language. I'm like, you will watch this.

Melissa D. (23:51)
I feel so loved. I feel loved.

You found a

way. ⁓

casia sobolewski (23:58)
loophole. so this was ⁓ on ticket was a partial clip of a 30 minute talk given by Elizabeth Gilbert, who wrote Eat, Pray, Love. But I really encourage you to like widen your scope to her beyond just that book, because she's a really incredible writer and speaker. ⁓ And she was talking about the axial age, and the axial age is when all of these ⁓ religions

Melissa D. (24:07)
Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Hmm. ⁓

casia sobolewski (24:28)
came into our historic landscape. So Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, they all kind of started to arise around the same time. And what the main theme was, was they were powerful, charismatic men who came to the conclusion that conquest and conquer were actually not supportive to community.

They were like, we need to practice compassion and justice and put our thoughts towards caretaking of the people who are the sickest or the elderly or the children or the weakest in our communities so that we can hold them better. So they had this awakening moment where they realized that they needed to be more like women. Right?

Melissa D. (25:22)
Yep, imagine that. I think

we're due time for that to happen again like right now, right?

casia sobolewski (25:29)
Right? ⁓ Which is great, right? Like as, as a society, we want men to have this realization that their power needs to be used to support community, not to take, take, take, take, take, take, take. And what happened though, in that phase was they created dogma around this all. They were like, okay, well, everyone needs to be more compassionate, but

who was doing all this labor before men had this realization.

women, right? And so what happened was that women got doubled down on with this concept that they needed to be more giving, more compassionate, have more justice and more awareness of their communities when they were already doing that labor. And so what Elizabeth Gilbert, what Elizabeth Gilbert is pointing out is that for men to move from the profane masculine to the divine masculine,

Melissa D. (26:04)
Mm-hmm.

casia sobolewski (26:33)
they needed to open their lens to have more compassion. But for women to move from the profane feminine into the divine feminine was that they needed to actually have a boundary.

Melissa D. (26:45)
Mmm sexy man yes. ⁓

casia sobolewski (26:48)
Right? Right?

Right? I know it's the recognition of like, can I authentically offer from my cup right now or not? Like, what is my boundary? And she essentially is saying that in order to do this, you have to draw a sacred circle around yourself. You have to have the awareness that first and foremost, I was given this body. And first and foremost, it is my priority to tend to and take care of this body.

And therefore I am sacred. And as soon as you have that awareness, every interaction that you have around you comes back to this. Do I feel sacred? Right? Do I feel like this person feels that I'm sacred and having that awareness between you and the world as a woman? mean, this is the cool part where I was like, I just, this was like percolating in me for so long and I'm like,

Melissa D. (27:20)
Hmm.

Mmm.

casia sobolewski (27:48)
when I considered it in relationship to our work, and I'd be curious to get your thoughts on this, but I was like, I actually think in hearing that, it reflected a greater understanding of working with men erotically, that saying no to their desire was often the bigger gift.

Melissa D. (28:11)
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

casia sobolewski (28:16)
right?

And then I had this reflection that like, okay, so men will pay to go see full service sex workers, but then they will pay more to go see a dominatrix. And what do dominatrix do? They say no, and they have the like, they get to choose, right? They have a lot of voice and power in those moments of like, you don't get to touch me. I tell you when you get to touch me. It's like,

Melissa D. (28:28)
Mmm.

Hmm?

casia sobolewski (28:44)
you want me to pee on you? How nice. How nice for you that you want that. I'll feel into it. I'll decide when or if I want to do that. Right?

Melissa D. (28:49)
Yes.

Yeah. So

them getting a chance to actually feel the power, feel the boundary, feel the no and the choice versus like, hey, everything's just on the table, which is another fun game too. Yeah.

casia sobolewski (29:01)
Yes, it's another

fun game. like not to say that it doesn't have its own purpose, but I have learned in my own practice that actually having wider boundaries is less helpful to male clients than having firmer ones. It's more supportive to them and their healing and their journey and their erotic integrity.

Melissa D. (29:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

casia sobolewski (29:28)
If I am authentically in my... Do I want to let you touch my boobs right now? No. But you can look at them. Yeah.

Melissa D. (29:35)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, is this in service? Yeah, is this in service of,

you know, again, whatever?

casia sobolewski (29:43)
Yeah, and in service, sure, but also just like authentically my own desire and availability, right? Like trusting that if it's a no, that there's a reason. And whether I know that reason or not is actually irrelevant, but to trust that it's there for some reason. Anyway, I'm like obsessed with this concept because I think it also speaks to what we were just talking about in terms of like women having tension, like creating this.

Melissa D. (29:53)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

casia sobolewski (30:14)
It's not just like take me whatever I like whatever you want to take me. It's like Take me with these boundaries in place Right like yes, you can tie me up but not my hands Right, like whatever whatever it is. It's like that the piece around Anyway, that's I'm very excited about it

Melissa D. (30:35)
Yeah.

Now I'm gonna, when I hop off of here, know, maybe I'll download TikTok and see if I can use a different email and explore some of this. It's fascinating. And I find in my work and also just life, boundaries are really hot, you know, knowing that, you know, feeling someone's limits and having them feel mine. And then even if they have a response to it, because over the years, it's less now because of the community that I hang out with.

casia sobolewski (30:47)
Just say.

Melissa D. (31:06)
But let's back up on the timeline of like my early 20s, when I would say a no or have a boundary, a person would get upset or make it about some other story. And instead of honoring it and having a point of more connection and more depth, was actually like, which trained me to be more trying to like some fawning in my earlier experiences too, because I didn't want love to go away or attention or whatever the thing was. And so as I matured, now as I became

more embodied, know, especially in this work. It's like, I'm really paying close attention to someone's response to what that boundary and what that clarity is, you know.

casia sobolewski (31:48)
It's very telling, isn't

it?

Melissa D. (31:52)
gives instant feedback.

casia sobolewski (31:56)
Yeah, totally.

Melissa D. (31:57)
And you also mentioned

something, ⁓ you know, in all of this, when someone's just kind of, you know, the patriarchy or what, you know, someone just kind of putting their energy on you, there's a, there's a difference between, and JD and I just talked about this just an hour ago of the power with versus power over. There's, there's something different. And so when we can teach that or be that in our community, but also with clients that come to us, getting into the nuance and the psychology of all of this, then they can take that and

take it into their relationships or take it into their business or whatever. It's beautiful. And I always celebrate, celebrating people's desire. mean, just as your husband Cosmo, he developed that anatomy of desire, which I think is such a beautiful tool. And we'll share that in the show notes. But some people are afraid to speak their desire to their partners or a practitioner because they have so much intensity of like, I have this desire and it needs to happen.

casia sobolewski (32:29)
Thank you.

It's so beautiful.

Melissa D. (32:55)
and there's not a lot of energy on let's unpack it and let's just feel it in your body and let's actually think about does this actually align with your values and does it care for the people involved, et cetera, et These are the things that we're often or I'm often teaching or mirroring back to the masculine.

casia sobolewski (33:13)
Yeah, yeah, it's

so, mean, yeah, the Anatomy of Desire is such a gorgeous tool.

Melissa D. (33:19)
I love that the handout for a while had the bus in the description. Maybe this doesn't make sense to a lot of people. It does? Okay, I hope so. Because when the two of you were developing it or were talking about it and fleshing it out, was like it had a piece of your own ⁓ desire in there of like, I want an orgy and I'm going to load everyone on this bus. ⁓

casia sobolewski (33:25)
I think it's still done.

I it was so funny. The first time I taught it, I was like, I was racking my brain. was like, what's something that feels like edgy for me to share that would feel like really relevant to this conversation? I had seen this one, I don't watch porn a lot, but I had seen this one public bus orgy and I was like, why is this compelling for me? Anyway, so yes, yeah. And I don't even know.

Melissa D. (34:06)
Public bus orgy, okay.

casia sobolewski (34:12)
I like, can probably break that down into so many different elements, but I brought it into this first workshop and I kept using it as an example of like, you know, you could feel into it, just like sit with it in your body. Do you actually want an Orteana bus? I don't know. Like, I know. There's a lot of things to consider about this. And the cause was like, I know a guy who has a bus. Like, okay, okay.

Melissa D. (34:37)
Let's get it

right now. Yeah.

casia sobolewski (34:39)
Like, let's

hold on a second. Like, when does it end? Like, there's so many questions. How do we structure this? Anyway, the bus is still on there and I love that it is on there because I get to be embarrassed every single time over and over again.

Melissa D. (34:46)
Yeah, yeah.

This is a good visual for me, like a whole bus of people.

casia sobolewski (35:00)
Like are there people who are just watching? Is the bus blacked out? Is it nighttime? How would, like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of.

Melissa D. (35:07)
Is there music

happening?

casia sobolewski (35:11)
Are we role playing that we're all just like pretending to take a bus ride and then it turns into a...

Melissa D. (35:18)
I was at this conference, it must have been a couple years ago, where it was all just leaders and teachers in the sexuality realm. So was all just like black belts and all the things. And we were teaching workshops with each other. Anyway, one cool thing that I really loved, and I'm curious if you've noticed this in your community, is that like, there was a desire just amongst the camp of the entire festival that just took over this entire hotel, right? So there was a desire.

casia sobolewski (35:28)
Hmm

Melissa D. (35:45)
of like, okay, so and so wants to have a experience in gangbang. And then they had a point person. And so the point person went and had a criteria, a little list. Okay, you're looking for this type of person that brings this kind of element. And they did the negotiation. as the festival's happening, there's this point person ⁓ going around interviewing potentials to fulfill this fantasy. And I was like, that's super sweet. What a cool friend.

casia sobolewski (36:13)
What a cool friend. Yeah.

Melissa D. (36:15)
Like you have a desire,

I'm gonna help you fulfill it. And it was just so much care. What I noticed was like all the care and attention and the interviewing and yeah, it was super sweet. That should be a booth. Ooh, give me some ideas.

casia sobolewski (36:18)
Yeah, that's beautiful.

Like the desire fairy.

Yeah, it should be.

Cosmo is my point person, which I'm very grateful for as ⁓ an introvert who is not so interested in talking all that much, but he will arrange my erotic hookups for me and he will manage any interactions if we're at a party together. Like it's very, it works very well for me.

Melissa D. (36:44)
Mm-hmm.

Wow, and so this would be like a play party, a public event, you know, where everyone shows up and they're all on board and then he listens to your desires of the night and goes and finds it for you.

casia sobolewski (37:12)
Or yeah, he's like the ringmaster. I have this, this is my current desire that we haven't done yet, but it's going to happen. Or I want, ⁓ I want to be blindfolded and mute the entire time. I don't want to see who's in the room at all, but he can choose what he wants other people to do to me.

Melissa D. (37:18)
Okay, let's hear it.

And I imagine this comes from years of trust and knowing and understanding. And so you're trusting him and he's, I love that. It was really fun. So just.

casia sobolewski (37:36)
Yeah.

It's not fun. Yeah. And I mean, like,

there's been, there's been elements of like, I didn't love that experience, or maybe we would try this differently that time. But I think that's what, you know, the anatomy of desire offers us is that we can go and have these experiences. And then there's the opportunity for reflection, right? It's like, just because it wasn't perfect, or didn't check all your boxes doesn't mean that you can't adjust it to something that might fit better the next time.

Melissa D. (38:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, having those kind of conversations. I work with a number of couples that have, you know, these fantasies kind of rolling around in their minds that they want to do individually or together. And having that framework is so helpful so that they can kind of unpack all of that and care for each other in this situation and kind of cue it up. And then maybe it happens or maybe it doesn't. But if it does happen, then there's a coming back to the drawing board and

⁓ yeah, I love it. love it.

casia sobolewski (38:41)
Yeah.

Melissa D. (38:48)
Yeah, I'm curious about... ⁓ When I met you, were doing a workshop on porn literacy. Do you remember that? Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to share a little bit about like what inspired that and what... ⁓ Yeah, what you offer?

casia sobolewski (39:00)
Aww, yeah. I do, yeah, it's a big part of my life.

Melissa D. (39:16)
through that.

casia sobolewski (39:17)
Yeah, I mean, I think ⁓ one of the biggest gifts that we have as humans is to be ⁓ in like, I mean, use word critical, but really just like thoughtful analysis of what we're consuming. Right? Like, and this happens in so many different ways, food, content on our phones, like there's just shopping, like what are we consuming? ⁓ And how is it serving us? And so

Melissa D. (39:39)
Hmm.

casia sobolewski (39:48)
When I started that workshop, had been involved in ⁓ creating, I mean, consensual content. It's a weird thing to even say, but I was in a really big sex positive community and there were so many people who were just game to just have sex on camera the way that they wanted to have sex on camera. ⁓ And I mean, to say that we were trying to capture authentic erotic moments is

almost, it's hard to do when there's a camera in the room, like instantly, as soon as there's a camera in the room, it's gonna be different. But with that understanding, they were that like so much voice and choice, like who do you wanna do the scene with? How do you wanna feel? What do you wanna do? Are you using condoms? Are you not using condoms? Like, do you want candles? Do you want music? You can really do music a lot because of the filming, but it just, it called in this awareness that

Melissa D. (40:21)
Totally.

casia sobolewski (40:46)
the content that we were creating was different than what you see in mainstream porn. And so I started to just actually look at how it was different. so things like pacing, right? Like a lot of mainstream porn is very fast. ⁓ Things like female pleasure, things like lighting, things like what kinds of bodies are you seeing, right? There's so many elements that once you actually start to be like,

critical about what you're seeing, what are the repetitive themes, that so many people don't know that there is different porn, right? Like it's like watching, it's like watching Fast and the Furious or like sitting down and watching a Studio Ghibli film. This is a really weird reference to me, but I do this. But when I watch like kids movies with my daughter, often they're like very fast paced and very bright and very colourful.

Melissa D. (41:19)
Mm-hmm.

Love it.

casia sobolewski (41:45)
But when you watch the Studio Ghibli movies, like, you know what I'm talking about. It's like Totoro and Spirited Away. The pacing is so different.

Melissa D. (41:53)
Yes.

It's way different. There's more. Yeah, everything. Everything is different. Yeah.

casia sobolewski (41:58)
It's way different, right? Everything.

And the truth about sex is that it's often much different than what you're seeing in porn. And I think that's where a lot of young men get screwed. mean, a lot of young people in general, right? It's like women thinking they need to be like that, but men thinking they also need to be like that is where so much of our education problems come from, thanks to the states. But.

Melissa D. (42:08)
Absolutely.

Yes. Yep.

casia sobolewski (42:25)
in that the slowing it down, so we were creating porn that was cinematic, that was ⁓ showing bodies that were different, that was showing people in their authentic pleasure. It wasn't so male entertainment focused so much as it was just like, let's capture what's actually happening here. And I think that's where the literacy element comes in. It's like being critical of what you're consuming and how is it serving you.

Melissa D. (42:42)
Mm-hmm.

Do you find a lot of male clients coming to you that either self-diagnose themselves as like, I have a porn addiction or maybe like a therapist said that. ⁓ Yeah. Is that something that you see in your practice? Yeah. And then, yeah. And so what's your approach? ⁓ I'm curious your approach ⁓ to kind of through the sexological bodywork lens.

casia sobolewski (43:08)
Of course, yeah, yeah a lot.

Melissa D. (43:20)
what are some of the steps or like the series of sessions and what they might look like if someone feels like, hey, I'm addicted to porn or hey, I need porn in order to get aroused or like I needed in the room or like some sort of some of those elements.

casia sobolewski (43:35)
Yeah. Well, I'm obviously not anti porn. So but I also will not erase someone's gut feeling that maybe they should take a break. Right. Like if they're coming in saying that they're addicted to porn, I'm not going to try and convince them that they're not. I think it's the same way that I'm probably addicted to TikTok. Right. Like I will sit down and watch it in my brain likes it and it makes me happy. Is it good for me? Probably not. I don't know.

Melissa D. (43:48)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

casia sobolewski (44:04)
like a whole different thing. But it's probably pretty similar in just like the dopamine hits. ⁓ But it is training their bodies to be in pleasure in front of a screen with external input that is not in the present reality. So, ⁓ you know, it's getting men connected more to their bodies. But also if they're going to go home from that session, the primary thing is to use

Melissa D. (44:06)
Right.

Hehe.

casia sobolewski (44:34)
the screen to generate arousal and then put it down and like to start to develop a repatterning of like you can put this away and if your arousal starts to dim again, you can bring it back in. But like to start to separate the two, like can you be with the sensations in your body without that? Can you think about it in your head? Can you focus on what's going on? And then just to like the presencing of, it's truly, I mean, I don't, it's hard to,

Melissa D. (44:47)
Hmm hmm.

Mm-hmm.

casia sobolewski (45:03)
to remember, I've, in reflecting back, I don't know if you can remember, but when I started having sex, it didn't feel amazing. Like it.

Melissa D. (45:14)
My first

time was, I was like, I waited 18 years for that. Boring. Yeah.

casia sobolewski (45:20)
Right? I

know the first thing I was 15 and the first thought made my head was I can't wait to tell my friends. It wasn't like, wow, that was a game changer. It was actually pretty uninteresting. I mean, for whatever reasons, but it it reminded me that the place that I'm in my body now of like how much pleasure I'm capable of feeling now has been the practice.

Melissa D. (45:32)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

yeah.

casia sobolewski (45:47)
of staying

Melissa D. (45:47)
Yep.

casia sobolewski (45:47)
present to those sensations so that my neural capacity to feel all those things is extremely high. Right?

Melissa D. (45:54)
Yes, it reminds me of like

when I first got, ⁓ I remember I had a boyfriend forever ago that was like, hey, let's do some G-spot work. There was like something, it was before ⁓ Instagram was really huge and all that, but it was like, okay, I wanna give you like a squirting orgasm or like really, have you had this meltdown that we hear about in books and podcasts on the G-spot? And I remember when we explored my G-spot, I was like, is that, what is that? ⁓

a little bit of a disconnect, wasn't quite there. And it took practice and like almost like getting my tissues and my body to come online. And now it's like, it's a huge source of pleasure and arousal and like ecstatic bliss, which is so good. Yeah. You might feel, you might feel nothing before you feel something.

casia sobolewski (46:38)
Right?

Yeah, and I think this is a really common thing for almost every single person that we work with, right? Especially women, where there's, you know, I will assign homework, self-pleasuring homework that's different than just putting a vibrator right on your clip. It's like, are you breathing? Are you moving? You know, our regular little, da da da. And the resistance.

to doing those things is so high because the reward isn't instantaneous. And they're like, there's something wrong with me. I'm broken. It's like, no, you actually just haven't been practicing pleasure. You haven't been practicing expanding or paying attention to what your body is experiencing. And the only way through it is to do it. ⁓

This is for you, it's not for me. I'm not feeling pleasure from you masturbating. Like if you want more pleasure in your body, you need to be in the practice of paying attention to feeling pleasure in your body.

Melissa D. (47:33)
Yeah.

I'm going to pause you right there, and plug my computer in. It's going to die in just a second.

casia sobolewski (47:50)
Great.

Hmm

Melissa D. (48:03)
Yeah, big stretch.

casia sobolewski (48:07)
saw this meme that said, ⁓ who am I to stop my nipples from being the star of the show? ⁓

Melissa D. (48:14)
I mean, come on, I love it.

You're on brand. ⁓ I love that you mentioned that. I was just working with a series of women that were experiencing, I don't wanna say vibrator dependence. I don't wanna shame anybody for using vibrators, but that was the only source of height and sensation and also any kind of pleasure or ⁓ orgasm. everything else was just kind of boring. And I thought, well,

You know, yeah, takes re-sensitizing and really taking the time and practicing and so many of them are like, wait, what? This sounds so, it's less exciting, right?

casia sobolewski (49:01)
Well,

I mean, that's the picture we've been painted, but I just spent like 40 minutes in the bathtub tickling my legs the other night. And it was amazing. Like just my legs.

Melissa D. (49:13)
I love it. I love it. Yeah, we did a we did a little birthday thing with some friends locally and we had a like a little cuddle puddle and then each of us would like lead the group through various things and was one was just a touch portal and it was like not quite the three minute game that Benny Martin does where you like really focus on the texture and like moving things in your hands just for pleasure, know, since I focus but it was like putting your finger.

casia sobolewski (49:36)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa D. (49:44)
just on one little spot on someone else's body. And it could be just like, you know, that's this little space between your thumb and your pointer finger, or this little, you know, spot on someone's shoulder where there's a piece of cool fabric, but you really breathe and almost like go into this portal space. So again, just bringing ⁓ more awareness online and maybe, you know,

going deep into something that normally you would just feel or look over entirely but really teaching presence and receptivity and yeah you could spend hours just tickling your legs and actually get a lot out of it but it takes practice.

casia sobolewski (50:24)
Yeah. So it's word that I learned. If I say it's fucking TikTok again.

Melissa D. (50:29)
Fucking TikTok.

casia sobolewski (50:31)
But the word is havening, which is light touch. Ooh, but it's, I Googled it afterwards because it was scientifically proven that women specifically needed this kind of touch to feel safe and settled in their own bodies. Havening, I know, right? Havening. ⁓ Of course, it's not.

Melissa D. (50:34)
Havening

Mmm.

Wow, I love that. Okay.

casia sobolewski (50:59)
there's whenever you say this is true for everyone, it's there's someone that's like, that's not true for me. So within the reasonable amount of percentage, but yeah. And I think I've, what you said just about the portal. And so there's this like, why question, you know, like why spend the time? Why would I do this? But I think you just nailed it is because pleasure.

Melissa D. (51:04)
Yeah.

casia sobolewski (51:27)
I mean, at least for me, and this is what I refer to when I say God, right? It's pleasure is the closest experience that I have on a daily basis that I feel God. It's like, if there is anything in my life that I could call God, it would be pleasure in my body.

Melissa D. (51:40)
Hmmmm

I'm, mm-hmm, I have to agree.

casia sobolewski (51:50)
Right?

Right? So in taking the time to have this practice of being with your body, you are opening a portal to God. And I think this is why the desire from men to penetrate women or to penetrate in general is this portal, right? Like you're entering into this portal. And I mean, I feel this in my practice with my husband, right? Like when we have sex.

It's like him inside me is a direct, it's like a heroin line to God. It was like, whoa, We're hooked right in. That's like years of practice, but it's like so deeply there for both of us that if I'm out of alignment with myself, if I'm not feeling present to the situation, if I'm feeling unsafe, it's not true for either of us anymore at all, right?

Melissa D. (52:31)
You're hooked right in there, yes.

casia sobolewski (52:52)
And so the practice of like being in your body and having the boundaries and noticing like, wait a second. actually, can we snuggle for five minutes first? I'm feeling like disconnected or ungrounded or will you tickle me? Like all these doors open towards the portal.

Melissa D. (53:04)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

beautiful knowing that knowing what you need in intimacy or in connection especially with your partner maybe even just a lover or even a date like it doesn't have to look like no connection or we're penetrating like it could look like all these different ways to engage and to be together. I love that.

casia sobolewski (53:32)
Can I

plug our thing? Because this is really correlated to that. So ⁓ Cosmo, my husband, has logged. Brilliant, brilliant man. ⁓ I like to joke with him that he is like one of the charismatic leaders that could start a religion. Right? Like he could get followers, like no problem. Like people will follow that man anywhere. ⁓

Melissa D. (53:36)
Let's do it.

Brilliant. Brilliant man.

Absolutely.

Yep.

casia sobolewski (54:02)
We like to reference that with he does it with choice, right? Like he he really encourages this like slowing down and noticing and feeling into your truth. And if it's the no great like perfect way to honor your truth. ⁓ But he has logged over thousands of hours touching specifically women's bodies. And so in our new iteration of what we're offering to the world, where he

and me, I'm doing the course with him, but he's the primary teacher of the art of touching women, how men touch and why it matters. Which is this, it opens this whole gateway, right? Of like women want their partners to be better lovers, men want to be better lovers. And it's like the how, the in between how, how you connect those two worlds. So I would not recommend learning from anybody else. I know I'm biased because he's my husband, but literally ask anyone who knows him.

Melissa D. (54:34)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

casia sobolewski (54:58)
He's a really incredible teacher.

Melissa D. (55:00)
He's brilliant. Yeah. Wonderful. So when is that workshop in it? When it's free, right?

casia sobolewski (55:06)
Yeah, we're doing a free hour long intro. He is I'm not part of that one, but I will be in the we're doing a seven, seven week course that starts at the end of April. pretty sure it's all on our website, him rose project.com. But the free workshop, the first one is on December 3rd at 6pm. And it's free. So anyone who wants to sign up and just get like a little taster is welcome to come and just feel into it.

Melissa D. (55:26)
Great.

Mm hmm.

Yeah, to meet Cosmo, get a taste for his work and see how he is. And then if you're inspired, you know, people can then jump to the longer form. And it's totally reasonable, too. I'm so glad he's doing that. Yeah, like, seriously, doing God's work. Yeah. ⁓ wonderful. Hmm. Kasha, it's so good to see you.

casia sobolewski (55:50)
Literally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. mean, so much fun.

You too, Bingo!

Melissa D. (55:59)
And chat and yeah, thank you for everything you do in the world. yeah, is there anything else you want to share with our listeners? Any other places that they can find you online?

casia sobolewski (56:10)
Well, I think it's just important to note that ⁓ Mango and I have been working on retreats together for seven years. So really the only context that we know each other and is like living together for a week or two weeks every year and doing this really big, intense work together where we're seeing, you know, three clients a day for six days in a row, offering erotic experiences and how transformative

Melissa D. (56:18)
Uh-huh.

huh.

casia sobolewski (56:40)
those retreats have been, I mean, for me, but also just for every single person attending them. ⁓ It's really such a gift and an honor to be able to work in that space. ⁓ I think, I know we mentioned at the beginning, but I don't wanna underestimate how big and beautiful the basic root of our relationship is.

Melissa D. (56:40)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Thanks for mentioning that. I look forward to that time. That's something that I, it's like one of my little North stars. I really look forward to that. Not only dropping with you, but just the alchemy of our friends and colleagues that come together and offer this space to a small number of men.

casia sobolewski (57:13)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Melissa D. (57:32)
So it's

very intimate, it's very deep and there's so much care and thoughtfulness and attention into every single detail. It's really exquisite. And I can't wait for it to expand to a couple of times a year. Yeah. ⁓

casia sobolewski (57:46)
Yeah, if you're a man or have a man in your life, you should send them to our retreats.

Melissa D. (57:53)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right, Cash. Do you want to plug your website and your Insta?

casia sobolewski (58:00)
Sure, yeah. My website is honeyandwater.ca, because it's like the nectar. It's like what you need is the water, but also the nectar, right? The honey. ⁓ Safety and then pleasure. And ⁓ my Instagram is Kashia Sobolewski, which no one's going to know how to spell, so I hope you write it down somewhere.

Melissa D. (58:01)
All right.

Yes, we need it both.

Well, yeah, we'll put it in the show notes. ⁓ All right, cash, AKA cash money. I love you so much. Thanks for being here. All right. Bye for now.

casia sobolewski (58:27)
Great.

Do I go or do I stay?

Melissa D. (58:40)
Do I stay or do I go now? Yeah, you can leave. You're free to go.

casia sobolewski (58:45)
Okay.