Exploring the Depths of Intimacy with Philippe Lewis

Summary

In this conversation, Philippe Lewis shares insights on the evolution of play events, the importance of creating safe spaces for exploration, and the role of attunement in relationships. He discusses the significance of emotional intelligence and attachment theory in navigating modern relationships, emphasizing the journey to secure attachment and the concept of considerate non-monogamy. Philippe also highlights his upcoming events and retreats that focus on fostering community and connection.

Takeaways

• Philippe Lewis discusses the evolution of play events in the Bay Area.
• Creating safe spaces is essential for exploration and intimacy.
• Attunement is crucial for understanding others' needs and boundaries.
• Sensitivity in relationships requires deeper engagement beyond verbal consent.
• Primal play helps individuals connect with their inner animal and emotional intelligence.
• Attachment theory plays a significant role in how we relate to others.
• The journey to secure attachment involves self-awareness and emotional regulation.
• Considerate non-monogamy emphasizes care and consideration in relationships.
• Safety in relationships allows for deeper exploration and connection.
• Philippe's upcoming events focus on creating safe and nurturing environments.

Chapters

• 00:00 Introduction to Philippe Lewis and Club Exotica
• 04:27 The Evolution of Play Events and Community
• 07:10 Creating Safe Spaces for Exploration
• 09:48 The Importance of Attunement in Relationships
• 12:54 Navigating Sensitivity and Consent
• 15:24 Primal Play and Emotional Intelligence
• 18:14 Exploring Attachment Theory and Relationships
• 20:58 The Journey to Secure Attachment
• 23:47 Considerate Non-Monogamy and Community
• 26:23 The Role of Safety in Relationships
• 29:08 Upcoming Events and Retreats

Keywords

Philippe Lewis, Club Exotica, play events, safe spaces, attunement, emotional intelligence, attachment theory, non-monogamy, community, relationships

Find Philippe + Upcoming Events

• Main hub
• Instagram

Upcoming Events & Retreats

Club Exotica
Immersive, curated play parties rooted in safety, attunement, and connection
🌐 https://clubexoticapresents.com

📅 Midsummer Event: August 1

Coming Home to Love (Attachment Repair Retreat)
A deeply regulating retreat focused on safety, grounding, and secure attachment
📍 Hawaii
📅 April
🌐 https://cominghometo.love

Firelight (Micro Festival)
An intimate, play-possible gathering with music, movement, and connection
📍 Near Yosemite, California
📅 Late May
🌐 https://firelight.love

Transcript

Philippe Lewis (00:00)
So of course consent is crucial, but there's a way to attune to somebody else that when you have enough practice, consent is almost clunky in comparison. And that happens between lovers, between people who already trust each other. the question for me has always been like, how do we create a space, a playground where people...

Melissa D (00:10)
Right.

Philippe Lewis (00:20)
immediately because they know they're all playing the same game, immediately there's trust that's present and then you know and then you can like really start from a place of how far and how deep can I explore with you in terms of intimacy. But it's all about like being able to feel oneself and dance accurately and explore accurately with the other person based on how you feel.

Melissa D (00:50)
Welcome everyone to the Body Joy After Office Hours podcast. Tonight's guest, a dear friend, dear colleague from the Bay Area, Philippe Lewis. He is a relationship educator and founder of Exquisite Love, empowering people to make more informed choices through connection, trust and consent and intimacy. He's drawing from attachment theory, guiding transformational journeys towards secure attachment and sovereign selfhood.

He's incredible.

I love how this man's mind works. He introduced me to the whole play party scene. And so we're going to talk about that. We also talk about attunement culture versus consent culture. We get into attachment styles and his deep 20 year study and our favorite ways to have a successful grounded open relationship and what it actually takes to explore it. enjoy the podcast and I'll see you inside.

Melissa D (01:47)
Philippe, thank you for joining us tonight. let's just jump right in. I was talking about you recently for a couple of reasons. One, you and your whole event. I'm trying to think of what the name was. It was.

What was the play parties that you used to do in the Bay Area? You might still do them. Club Exotica. Yeah, so about, maybe it was like 10 years ago or so, it was my first play party in the Bay Area. And I went from Grass Valley over there and I was just, I had the best time. And some of the things that I really enjoyed about that event and many other ones that follow was the attention to detail.

Philippe Lewis (02:07)
I'll probably start a cow.

Melissa D (02:32)
and also the attention to the music, the environment, and it was very, there was a lot of emphasis on movement and dance. And for me, I just thought that was awesome. So yes, you had these play areas, but there was also just so much juicy, delicious energy on the dance floor.

Philippe Lewis (02:52)
Hmm, beautiful. Wait, was it was this at supper club or was it at a different location?

Melissa D (02:57)
I believe it was a supper club, was the one where they had the little rafters and yeah. Yeah, and there was...

Philippe Lewis (03:01)
yeah. Yep. Yeah, so this was the

second base. This was this was the second base event. So you know, and what we essentially did was just take a dance party where everybody knows what's going on and what it's all about. And we just sort of cranked up the sexiness a little bit. You know, we tell people like, you know, second base is above the waist. Dry humping is OK. And and because it was supper club people that women had to wear pasties because it's a restaurant.

Melissa D (03:27)
Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (03:28)
And so, you

people just got excited at the idea of doing, you know, going dancing, which is something they're comfortable with and they're already familiar with. And then if they wanted, they could just take it a little further.

Melissa D (03:40)
I love that. And so how did you end up there, like producing these events? I think when I met you at the party, I didn't realize the connection between where you were there producing events, and I believe you were still part of faculty of ISTA. So I'm curious, yeah, what was the impetus to doing these amazing parties in the Bay Area?

Philippe Lewis (04:01)
Well, so first of all, I was never faculty with ISTA. I was organizing. I was an organizer. So I sort of went from organizing play events to organizing these events. And that was around a time where, and I think we met a few years before I joined ISTA. And what happened is that eventually we couldn't do events at supper club anymore. And so we didn't have a good venue and we just kept waiting for a good one to show up. And then ISTA popped up in my field and they were,

Melissa D (04:05)
got it.

Philippe Lewis (04:27)
were like, you I met them at the Tantra Festival and they were like, hey, you know, you teach things and you organize things, like you should join us, you should join ISTA. So I did ISTA for the first time a few months later, did my first level one and I was like, well, this is pretty cool, this is pretty cool, like I definitely organized retreats, which was I had never done before. But if I go back to like how did I get started to with play events, it all started out with

having done like a chill space at a Burning Man camp many years prior, know, many years before that and all the gear, pillows and mattresses and fabric and large stuffed tigers and things like that. And all the important things that I still had that and I started realizing that most dance event had a chill space, but it was just like an afterthought. So I realized I could do better and I had all the gear to do so.

Melissa D (05:06)
the important things.

Philippe Lewis (05:18)
And at some point I got invited to a rave play party

I just reached out to them and I said, hey, I've got all this stuff. Would you like me to decorate a room? And they were like, of course. And so I decorated a room, met a whole bunch of people from different communities or different private play parties who invited me to decorate their play event. And it just sort of like unfolded from there, it sort of snowballed from there.

And then a few, maybe a couple of years later, I got invited to co-produce an event called Mystic Temple of Bliss, which was, and the first one happened at the noodle factory in Oakland, which was this old warehouse. And you had to kind of like, you know, go over like a small wall and go inside of a door. And it just felt like total, like underground, underground rave. And we had a hot, you know, we brought in a hot tub and.

And it was just the good old days. But it was essentially like I started getting more familiar with what kind of space, you know, how do you set up a space that when people walk in, they feel their nervous system drops down grounds and they feel like they could go in a direction that feels more intimate because they feel safe. And some of it has to do with the space and how it's decorated and the attention to detail, which you mentioned.

Some of it is the attention to having the right music and having the right food and the snacks and like all these little things. People arrive and walk into that and they immediately feel like everything's taken care of. And when people feel safe, and this goes all the way to today's, to the work that I do today. When people feel safe, they can start taking steps that are more, do things that are more risky because they come from a place of safety.

If they don't feel safe, they might do risky things because like, you know, just I'm taking risks left and right. So I might as well, but it's not, they're not grounded. They're not grounded in a nervous system that's like, I can, I can read myself and I can move in directions that if things don't feel safe, I should stop. But if you're already coming from a place of lack of safety, then you can't really read your own body and your own nervous system because it's already dysregulated even just a little bit. So.

Melissa D (07:10)
you

Right.

Philippe Lewis (07:28)
Safety allows for a better reading of your own nervous system because you can feel it when it starts to shift.

Melissa D (07:35)
I love that. And it's so important in play spaces, regardless of how many people are there. I'm curious from you in your own words, what are the benefits that you've seen over the years of having, you know, central parties, whether they're first base or, you know, full bases, all bases? What are some of the? Yeah, like what are the what are the benefits and what is the healing available?

Philippe Lewis (07:55)
All bases.

Melissa D (08:01)
for not only individuals that go there, but the collective community.

Philippe Lewis (08:05)
But for me, there's a few different pieces. One of them is it provides a place for a place to explore and try things and just basically play. So they've done studies about this and I unfortunately cannot quote you a specific one, but they've done studies that the brain and the humans learn best through play. And so if you give them an opportunity to engage and play with each other, kids do this, adults also can do this.

And so what I wanted to create is a playground where people get to have interactions that could be seen as really edgy if they're out of context. But in a context where you come in with the right agreements that helps you orient towards, this is how we play together. So they're not rules. We never called our agreements rules. We would call them agreements because they help everyone know that they're playing the same game.

And the game, it's a game of exploration around intimacy and around sensuality and around relationships. And how do you relate to people at the level that where you can be, you can be turned on, but still trying to find what's the overlap between what I want and what you want so that when we come together, we do something that's really great, that's really awesome. And we learn something about each other. We learn something about our own bodies and the other person's body. We learn to attune. So here's the thing, if you make a request to somebody and you say,

Well, may I do this or may I do that? More often than not, the attention is on the request and the response to the request. But if you were to approach a pet, for example, you would never ask them. You would just approach and you put your hand out or you just like use your body to determine whether or not their body wants to connect with your body. And that's the kind of exploration I wanted people to be able to develop.

Melissa D (09:38)
Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (09:48)
primal, what I call primal intelligence, emotional intelligence and somatic intelligence.

So of course consent is crucial, but there's a way to attune to somebody else that when you have enough practice, consent is almost clunky in comparison. And that happens between lovers, between people who already trust each other. the question for me has always been like, how do we create a space, a playground where people...

Melissa D (10:04)
Right.

Philippe Lewis (10:14)
immediately because they know they're all playing the same game, immediately there's trust that's present and then you know and then you can like really start from a place of how far and how deep can I explore with you in terms of intimacy. But it's all about like being able to feel oneself and dance accurately and explore accurately with the other person based on how you feel.

And if you feel that's a yes then you continue and if you feel like it's a no because

Melissa D (10:35)
Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (10:39)
now you're done or basically it's too edgy or you're starting to get scared then you would stop. So it's that kind of exploration, that kind of what I call attunement culture. Like beyond consent culture is what I call attunement culture. It's like developing the attunement to engage with people accurately to what's right for them and what's right for you. So that's ultimately, that's the ultimate goal. But you know, it took 20 years to kind of like dial that in.

Melissa D (10:58)
Beautiful.

Yeah,

I'm sure you've seen it grow and expand. And I noticed when I kind of started coming to your events in particular, it's a collection of vetted folks. It's not just an Eventbrite ticket. So I imagine, again, I want you to speak to it. But what I gather, what I make up about it is like,

this kind of learning really takes like an arc and being in community, know, yes, you can pop in and probably learn a lot, you know, your first time, but it's like joining a family and like understanding each other and getting to know yourself. yeah, how, when we go back to consent culture or the words you used of,

Philippe Lewis (11:35)
Yeah.

Tumon culture.

Melissa D (11:48)
That too, mid culture, thank you. What are the ways in the last 20 years through your teachings and through your community? Have you seen it expand and change and yeah, what have you noticed?

Philippe Lewis (12:00)
Well, first of all, I've noticed that the more and more people with trauma or deep sensitivity start showing up at these events. And when people have this level of sensitivity, it's not enough to go and ask them, you know, would you like to do this? And would you like to do that? Sometimes they'll fawn, sometimes they'll people please, sometimes they'll freeze, sometimes they'll just be confused. It's not enough to just ask anymore.

And now it's become really important that if you're gonna approach somebody that you attune to what's going on for them. It's crucial, it's critical. And I started noticing in a culture people saying, you know, like somebody approached me and I wasn't interested and I kind of like sort of did not engage and they didn't get it. And to me that's like if you're developing attunement, it's important that everybody does.

is that you should be able to tell that this person's not interested. They shouldn't have to say no. And it became, it sort of started popping up in the culture, like why do I have to say no if I'm just not engaging? That should be enough of a no. Right? Right. And of course you've got all these sort of, this also comes at the tail end of these, the pickup artists, the people who are doing pickup artistry who basically,

Melissa D (13:06)
Ooh, it's an edgy topic. Yeah. Uh-huh.

Philippe Lewis (13:25)
just did a lot of approaching and there was some manipulative tactics that came along with that. And essentially, I think the response started to be in the culture that not just because of that, but just in general because of people's sensitivity, that there's something more than just saying yes or no or receiving a request and responding to it. Words are not enough anymore.

you know, words don't tell you if somebody's fawning or people pleasing. You have to go deeper. And and so, yeah, so I was noticing a lot of a lot of people sort of being being outraged or being upset that other people wouldn't get it. They would just come and ask and they would ask again and would ask again. And, know, I many women come to me and say, how do I say no in a way that, you know, I'm not engaging?

Melissa D (13:53)
Yeah, yeah.

Philippe Lewis (14:13)
And then I say no, and then it feels like I'm engaging because I said no, and then they're looking for the yes. And it just became this whole thing. And so I realized that teaching attunement had to become part of the culture.

Melissa D (14:25)
Beautiful. in your own practice, yeah, in your own practice, I imagine there's different ways that you personally teach people, either in large groups and or small ones. Do you want to maybe give our listeners just a few examples of what does that time frame look like? What are some common milestones or markers that you've seen in people really understanding? I'm sure it's all over the place too.

Philippe Lewis (14:26)
So started doing that.

I see what you mean. You're like, you're asking me like, what does it look like to teach people about the attunement

Melissa D (14:54)
Yeah, in your flavor or just a simple example, if you're with a group or how is it different if you're just with a couple, for example.

Philippe Lewis (15:04)
Right, so I haven't done coaching for that specific thing for couples or for individuals. That's not the direction that I orient. But I have taught groups. And the way I usually approach it is through primal play. So in a way, I basically hypnotize everybody and turn them all into kitty cats. And then I basically just...

Melissa D (15:17)
Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (15:24)
lead them into a guided meditation that includes movement and play and engagement. And that gives them a reference point for what it's like to allow their inner animal to essentially lead the way. And their inner animal is also really in touch with what's scary, what's attractive, what's interesting, what's alive for them. And they move towards pleasure away from pain, look for what makes you feel more alive and then go towards that.

and then explore that and see how it or how the other person or the other animal responds. And people already have a sense of that because they've been engaging with cats and dogs for a long time. And so turning them to kitty cats is sort of like a playful way for them to get in touch with their own inner animal, whether it looks like a kitty cat is besides the point, and get in touch with their inner animal and essentially develop that sensitivity.

And I think what's happened, what happened over in culture is that people have gotten further and further away from their their own inner animal. And I like to say that their primal intelligence is lower than it could be. And so if you increase that, you also increase the capacity to attune to other animals, which essentially humans are like basically there's a part of us that has the mammalian brain and we've essentially been animals for way longer than we've been humans.

Melissa D (16:28)
Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (16:43)
And to be in touch with that and to be more aware of how our nervous system works, it's sort of like a friendly, simple way of getting in touch with your polyvagal sort of system. so primarily I've been teaching people how to do primal play and I've also been teaching people about spanking, which is less of a role play thing and more of a sensation play thing.

Melissa D (16:58)
Mm-hmm. I love it.

Philippe Lewis (17:11)
And when you're engaging with somebody and their butt cheeks, in this case, you have to attune to what's going on for them. And what I've come to realize over the years of doing this is that I started noticing that I could essentially feel what they were feeling. It's a little bit like synesthesia or some version of that. Like I would be engaging, whether using nails or using teeth or using my hands for spanking.

and I started noticing that I could actually perceive their experience or their sensations. And they say we have these mirror neurons that are meant to actually feel what other animals are feeling. Like it just mirrors what others are feeling. And it's probably through like very small details, like somebody starts to cry. Often you'll have somebody who's like sharing, maybe their voice cracks just a tiny bit, maybe.

Maybe you notice, maybe you don't. There's a way that their voice changes, that their face changes, and then you start feeling like crying. Most people I've seen experience that before. And so that's our mirror neurons. It's not just our brain saying, this person's sad, and then I'm feeling sad about it. It's way more primal than that. So to get in touch with these pieces of us that are able to perceive what's going on for others is crucial to attunement.

Melissa D (18:14)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Philippe Lewis (18:35)
I mean, it is attunement, in fact. So that's what I'm trying to teach people is this, to perceive things or maybe more consciously perceive things that otherwise they were just never noticing or never paying attention to.

Melissa D (18:37)
Mm-hmm.

I imagine if we were to overlay the erotic blueprints, the energetics can go into there a little bit easier than some of the other ones. And then you find those pathways for other people to connect as well.

Philippe Lewis (19:01)
Yeah, unfortunately,

the erotic blueprints from where I'm sitting, the erotic blueprints are missing the primal blueprint. they say, some people always, people always say, it's a sexual blueprint. And I'm not so sure about that. I feel like sexual is more somatic. Like it doesn't have this of like, this sort of like inner, it doesn't feel to me like it's got this animal intelligence to it.

Melissa D (19:09)
Mm-hmm.

I would agree with you, yeah.

Philippe Lewis (19:26)
So I would create another one and I would say it's right next to sexual, but it's different.

Melissa D (19:32)
I like that. I like the addition of that. Wonderful. Yeah, we were talking online about a few things. Over the years, I've really loved your perspectives on... Let me look at your... Yeah, I just... I love how your brain works.

Philippe Lewis (19:34)
Mm-hmm.

When you're one of the few, no many, many actually, but some people don't like the way my brain, I mean they look, you yeah, well, I mean what it is is that they, you know, it's like the way my brain works is that I like to understand things and so sometimes I'll talk about things that are kind of taboo or that you're, you know, you're not supposed to talk about these things and then because I talk about them it makes people think.

Melissa D (19:51)
You

Really?

Right.

Philippe Lewis (20:12)
about things that they're not ready to think about. And so it's, ⁓

Melissa D (20:15)
I'm so curious, I wanna double click on what's the

last thing that ruffled some feathers, Felita. ⁓

Philippe Lewis (20:22)
I mean,

my opinions about ISTA is, you know, basically, you know, and I've heard people say, you're disparaging ISTA. I'm like, no, not really. Like I had difficult experiences. I walked away with more trauma than I started. Certainly that was not fun. And, know, there's trade-offs. There's good things that came out of it, including a deeper sense of consideration towards people with less power in my position because I experienced a power trauma.

a power over trauma and you know, I'm squeezing the most juice out of that. But people, you know, people interpret what you say unless you're extremely clear and even if you are, people still interpret. So a lot of what I have to say is controversial because I'll point fingers at things that people would rather not think about or not consider. And I like to consider things. I'm a systems engineer at heart, even though I never studied it.

Melissa D (20:58)
Yeah. Right.

Philippe Lewis (21:12)
but I look at everything and I'm thinking systems, systems, systems. And how do we make them better? How do we improve on them?

Melissa D (21:12)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (21:20)
Like system, an engineer is always thinking like, how do I make this even better?

Melissa D (21:26)
Yeah, and I experience you just systems and very deep thinker. But I think one thread that I've enjoyed just kind of peeking around over the years is the attachment, just your how you've been expressing and getting people connected to that. And so do you want to share a little bit about your own discoveries and maybe what may be missing?

Philippe Lewis (21:47)
man.

Melissa D (21:48)
Missing

in the gap there of you know because there's teachers that are like okay Well here are these three types and you got to fit into one of these and there's not a lot of nuance So I'll let you kind of go into it

Philippe Lewis (21:54)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

I mean, attachment theory started to become popular. You know, it's been, it's been around for since the eighties, but it started becoming popular from the book attached. And, you know, it's not a bad book, but it's the first book and, it's, you know, talks about the different attachment styles. And, you know, at the end of the day with all the polyvagal research that's being done and nervous system related stuff, you know, it's become more more apparent. And it's, it was apparent to me pretty, pretty, pretty quickly that

Melissa D (22:08)
Right.

Philippe Lewis (22:25)
It's not about the attachment style. It's about the way the nervous system works and how it engages with the world. And yes, we have interpretations about the world as a result, about the universe, is the universe a safe place to be or not a safe place to be? But the thing is, you're not saying things like that when you're less than one year old. You're not even interpreting. You don't even know you have a brain. You don't even know you're a person. You have zero idea of anything. You're just reacting.

And so it's all nervous system primal stuff. So attach was great, it was a good start, but really it's all about what's happening underneath in the nervous system and how it orients around safety and what's safe and what's not safe. So the attachment styles all have this kind of nervous system template that sits underneath that makes people behave the way they do. And as they grow up, it becomes...

it becomes more and more, their interpretation of reality becomes more and more sophisticated, but at the end of the day, underneath everything, it's still the nervous system. So that's been my journey. I started out by super geeking out on attachment theory, and I would just type people. Fair enough. You're trying to understand a system, that's just a model, and the model is not reality. So you're trying to make sense of the reality with that system, just like the Uralic Blueprint.

And, you know, the orthopedic bruplanes help you understand, help you make sense of reality around sexuality, but it is not reality. The map is not the territory. And so I was typing people, then I started realizing, no, it's more complicated than that. It's good to use the types as kind of an orientation or just an approximation, but at end of the day, people are very complex. And you have to understand at that level of complexity.

So yeah, so my journey was, you know, just understanding attachment theory from, from that book and then started to go more and more in the direction of, right. When people feel safe, they can start taking risks. They can start taking risks that are coming from a place of safety, from a place of, ground, of grounding. And, and it started to be, I started looking at like, what, what are, what do secure people, what do, what do secure people do? What do they do? How do they engage?

I started looking around me for people who felt super grounded, really insecure. it was just, I would hang out with people and I'd be like, wow, I feel so much more grounded after hanging out with them for an hour or two. And I started noticing the qualities and the sort of, the qualities and abilities that a secure person has. these qualities,

Melissa D (25:03)
What are those?

Philippe Lewis (25:04)
I mean, there's different ways of looking at it, but the bottom line is a secure person is able to find grounding more easily than other people who are insecure. And I'm talking about emotional grounding. if you look at a person, you have your physical body, but if they had an emotional body, it would look like the kind of body who has really good balance. Somebody could come along and push that emotional body and

Melissa D (25:05)
and your experience.

Philippe Lewis (25:30)
they might fall or they might roll and they might get right back up. There's this sense of like really, really good balance, which doesn't mean never goes out of balance, but has really good balance. And because of that, other people who lean on them also gain the ability to feel that balance as a reference point and find their own balance. That's why the insecure person who's with a secure person will often find their ground and find their balance because they have a good reference point close to them.

Melissa D (25:32)
You

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (25:59)
So a good example of grounding and there's more qualities, it would take me, I've done a whole class on the qualities and superpowers of secure. Anything that helps find balance and that creates balance, secure people have an easier time about it. But primarily what it looks like is you get close to somebody who's secure and you're nervous system because of the Neumarian neurons.

your nervous system also grounds with them. I started noticing that as I was becoming more secure, when I was together with a loved one, that I, that was, that felt like my person, my grounds, my reference point. You know, if I got close to them, I would actually align with them. And it was just, it's just wonderful. I started noticing it when I was sleeping with a lover and I'd wake up in the morning and be like, wow, I slept so much better than when I'm alone.

Melissa D (26:27)
Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (26:52)
And then eventually just became like, all I would have to do is to be right up against somebody's body that I trust, that I feel a lot of connection with, and I would start to ground. This is co-regulation. This is how it works.

Melissa D (27:06)
Yeah, I have that experience too. I mostly would identify as the secure person and it's also dependent on who I'm in proximity with or who I'm, you know, spending time with. So I've definitely been with partners and lovers that are a little bit more anxious and then my anxious kind of picks up and starts, you know, getting all getting all wild.

Philippe Lewis (27:13)
Yeah.

Totally.

Melissa D (27:28)
Yeah, it's like

Philippe Lewis (27:29)
Yeah.

Melissa D (27:29)
who's doing the regulating here?

Philippe Lewis (27:32)
Right, so that's the thing. Like if you have two unsecured people, then neither person is totally in, it's totally balanced, balancing on their two emotional body feet. And so that's why it's useful when both people know how to find their own balance also. So there's this idea of self, like the idea of regulation is you should be able to do it, like a secure person should be able to do it.

with another person, it's way better, but it should also be able to do it alone. And there's ways to do that. Like some people love to go for a walk in nature or like a warm bath. Like it's not just the bubble bath, but the ideas of a warm bath being a self-caring thing, that makes sense. Because the warm bath is really, really reminds you of being in the womb at this really, really deep primal way.

Melissa D (28:14)
Mm-hmm. I love it.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So do you imagine, ⁓ do you imagine people, if they do identify as anxious or secure, do you think it is possible to kind of move through those different states? They're not totally fixed, I imagine.

Philippe Lewis (28:22)
So, so, so let's, okay, good. Go ahead.

Yeah, and it's possible to become what I like to call earned secure. Like there's a, is possible to take steps in that direction. And it's not easy and it takes time. You know, I've heard three to five years. I know I'm like 10 years in and I feel like pretty much there. It's not perfect. If I have trauma, you know, then I have to work harder in specific situations, especially the power over trauma. Like if I'm with somebody who has power over me.

or who's my boss, for example, my nervous system could get really activated and I'm like, this person's not doing anything to me. And if my person was next to me, I would be able to find ground in a way that by myself, I would just get activated. So yeah, so it is possible to take steps. It usually looks like what I like to call the four stages of the journey to secure.

So the first stage is you don't know you're insecure and you think it's everybody else's fault and you are insecure. So you

Melissa D (29:39)
Of course. ⁓

Philippe Lewis (29:42)
have zero awareness and you're insecure. And so, you know, of course it's just a mess. Your relationships are a mess. But then you start to recognize those patterns that are yours. Like you're the common denominator through a bunch of relationships and you start to realize, oh, this is how I'm insecure. Like, oh, I'm afraid of this. I don't want to approach that. I'm scared of.

I'm scared, oh, it's all my fault, things like that. It's not to recognize that it's not true, but you have that perspective. And so you become what I like to call like aware yet still insecure, that's stage two. And as you become more aware, you start to ask yourself like, how do I short circuit that? How do I stop that from happening? So you start to try to make better choices at choice points. if at some point you think,

I'm going to believe that this person did something wrong to me or, or I don't feel good about what they said, or I feel bad about myself. You start to recognize those patterns and you start to catch yourself. And as you catch yourself, you also start to want to do something better at that moment. And that's where you start to learn the skills of becoming secure. Sometimes you just need to regulate. You just need to find what regulates me. Sometimes you just need self care. Sometimes you just need to understand what's going on so you don't believe what your brain is telling you.

Melissa D (30:57)
Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (30:58)
or what your animal is telling you.

And so all of this, all of the skills that you learn over time allows you to catch yourself better, faster, and allow you to turn the corner towards like a better outcome or a better engagement with somebody. Instead of fighting, you go, whoa, I'm having a really hard time right now. I don't know what to do. Or I'm having a hard time. Give me 10 minutes. I'm going to go walk around the block, blow some steam, maybe scream a little bit towards nature, and then I'll come back and I'll be more regulated.

Melissa D (31:09)
.

Philippe Lewis (31:27)
So

over time you become what I like to call, you're more aware and you become more secure over time, you learn the skills. And then eventually if you just keep going, because it takes a long time, eventually you don't even think about it because you've learned to just engage with things that come at you with an understanding that you can handle it.

Melissa D (31:39)
Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (31:47)
And also understand it's not the universe that's coming at you. It's always coming at you, but it's not coming at you with a particular intent. It's just things just happen. And you start to want to actually support other people. So you become a reference point for them as you ground, as you find your own ground and your own sense of balance, you start to want to help other people. And that's how you become part of other people's, what I like to call secure network. You just. Yeah.

Melissa D (32:06)
.

Yes, that's so hot.

Philippe Lewis (32:16)
I there's people

like, and I tell people like, even if you don't know, there's people who love you. There's people who mean the best for you. And sometimes they call you randomly to say, they say, let's hang out. And you're like, why? And they're like, I just want to hang out. Like, it's just good to be with you and I love you. And it's non-transactional. It's just, they just want to be close because they just love loving. And they're also not as, they're not necessarily as exciting as the person that.

know, if you're still insecure, you might want to be with because it just kind of sort of makes you high. But the more secure you become, the more, exactly. You're looking for the sparkles, you're looking for the spice, you're looking, but as you become more secure, you realize that everything that goes, that gets high or goes up has to come back down. And so you start to look for what I like to call the down regulating goodness of secure. Cause that's, that's really what secure is. It's a down regulating

Melissa D (32:50)
That is sparkly. Yep.

Philippe Lewis (33:11)
It's basically it's the parasympathetic nervous system being in the best possible place. So that's the journey. The journey is towards like the reference point, like having that reference point of secure and being able to go right back to it, which is essentially being emotionally balanced, feeling grounded and feeling good about, you know, life and whatever's happening and wanting the best and wanting the same thing for everybody else.

Melissa D (33:15)
Yeah.

Mm hmm. I mentioned like the earlier stages of this is all just self responsibility because.

Unless you stumble on a book or you get some feedback or you find a therapist that may lead you, most people are just kind of spinning in their own BS until they're like, wait a minute.

Philippe Lewis (33:50)
Totally. Yeah, yeah, it is

my BS and I have to do something about it. So yes, and also, you know, the secure people around us are still there and they can become like a source of reference points. Like, why is my friend never in drama? Why is my friend's life just working? Like, what am I doing that I don't get that? And...

Melissa D (33:54)
you

Philippe Lewis (34:14)
And because the kind of loving that secure people bring typically is just very gentle and very very consensual, you know, it's not asking for anything. So it's like I just love you, you know, and I want the best for you. And if you have parents like that, like thank God because that's probably the best kind of parent you can get. Like whatever you want to do, do it. I'm supporting you. If you have trouble, I'm here for you. Like this kind of really simple, very ordinary type of love.

is very different than, you're so special and I really want you. But then it's like it drives the possibility that if you're not special anymore, then the love could be taken away. Unconditional love, on the other hand, is loving somebody for all the ways they're ordinary and lovable, if for that reason. So, yeah.

Melissa D (34:52)
Mmm.

That's how I try

to approach my son. I can feel it in his nervous system. He's just a very solid, clear, like mostly, he knows how to self-regulate. He lets things kind of roll off his back. It's just the coolest thing. He's 16.

Philippe Lewis (35:04)
Yeah.

Yep. Same for mine. How old is he? Yeah.

Oh, minus 14. It's like, I feel the same way. And you gave that to him.

Melissa D (35:21)
⁓

Yeah, I mean I had it yeah, absolutely giving him a response

Philippe Lewis (35:25)
Like at least initially, you push the boat

from the dock and it's like you oriented them just right.

Melissa D (35:34)
Yeah, one of the biggest things that I noticed just as a parent, mean, we did lots of things like co-sleeping and I really stayed with him and I breastfed and extended all these things that normally, you know, mothers have to go to work and they get cut short for various reasons. But whenever something would happen or like he would make a mistake instead of going to anger, which is how I grew up. I mean, sure, there's consequences for things, right. But there was this baseline of love of like, what are you doing or

Philippe Lewis (35:41)
Nice.

Totally.

Melissa D (36:03)
There's a curiosity and like, okay, that sucks, let's not hammer you into the ground for it. And I can see it in him now. Right. And so now he brings things to me when he makes a mistake instead of hiding it, which is what I was taught how to do. So I did, I spent years on doing that because it actually wasn't clear until I was probably 35 almost, I want to say even almost 40 when it was really like,

Philippe Lewis (36:04)
Yeah, what are you doing?

Totally. Yeah. They don't make it worse, you know?

Melissa D (36:33)
in my romantic relationships, how it would show up, would just hide stuff and omit things in an attempt to like keep safety because why make someone mad, right? So that was deep for me. Yeah.

Philippe Lewis (36:40)
Yeah, that's fawning.

Well, yeah, it's beautiful. beautiful. You're beautiful. You're able to realize that and then basically make better choices with your son choices that were not made with you or that you didn't make until later. Like you were able to like kind of shift that. Right. So that's what I meant by better choices at choice points. Like the choice point is you did your son did something that was, you know, maybe a messy or more awful or whatever it is. And instead you just get curious and you go,

Melissa D (36:55)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (37:15)
okay this is hard or this is a mess but not from a judgmental standpoint just like you just acknowledge the the fuck up for what it is but but you're not coming down on him because you know people that's that's another thing like like i've seen my son just go down on himself i think that's the expression right go down on anyway give him give himself a hard time and sorry i'm yeah yeah i'm french canadian so sometimes yeah yeah that's it pardon my french

Melissa D (37:34)
⁓ Yeah, be harder on himself. Be harder on himself. There you go.

Philippe Lewis (37:43)
⁓ And so, so yeah, I've seen him like get really hard on himself. And when I when I've seen that happen, I'm like, internally, I'm like, I'm not going to beat him even more than he already did. And in fact, I had to actually bring him back from that moment at some point a few years ago, because I could see that he had done all the beating up. And I was like, OK, this, you know, I understand how you feel. I'm not going to take that away from you.

Melissa D (37:43)
Uh-huh.

Philippe Lewis (38:11)
And I think I'm not gonna make it worse. I'm just gonna tell you, let's do something better. Let's do something different. And let's take it from there. Yeah.

Melissa D (38:19)
That's beautiful. We

are raising secure, regulated men in the world. Isn't that amazing?

Philippe Lewis (38:25)
my God, that's amazing. like

I want as many humans to be able to... Because here's the thing, like the universe is coming at you and it's not asking for permission. Reality is coming at you, it's not asking for consent, it's just coming at you. And I think the power of Securus is to be able to trust that things are gonna work out.

but not passively, they know they can do something about what's happening. And they trust that they have the support of people around them. And if actually over time cultivate that because it just makes sense. Like we're stronger together. so to have that outlook towards the future and what's coming and towards the universe and the world around us, it's a whole mind shift.

Melissa D (39:00)
Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (39:10)
and allows us to, I don't know, I'm gonna say breeze through life, but it's not breezy. Things get hard sometimes, whether it's sickness or accidents. So having the most security you can get allows you to move through these things more easily. But if you look at really insecure people, it's drama all the time. But when you become more secure, you start to reorient. You start to say, wow, this is not worth it. I am not doing this anymore.

Melissa D (39:18)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (39:39)
It's like how many times do you get drunk until you realize that getting hungover is a bad idea. And it's the same idea for becoming secure. Like you just start to let go of relationships that are really not worth it. And they're not meaningful enough or they're not moving in a way that makes you feel met. And so you let go of things, no judgment. It's like, this is just not working with you. It's not working with you. You, I wanna create something meaningful with. I wanna go deeper with you because...

Melissa D (39:56)
Yep.

Philippe Lewis (40:07)
That changes my life for the better.

Melissa D (40:10)
My mind is going in so many directions and I'm wondering

Like I know for me when I started doing work on this, on this, my attachment style and just the quality of relationships in general, I was drawn to and attracted to and even turned on by just people that were just better for me in general versus like, you know, this other archetype that was just really sparky, really fun, but not maybe tensions there. Yeah.

Philippe Lewis (40:30)
Nice.

Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You feel the tension and it just, you know, your whole nervous system gets activated.

Melissa D (40:42)
And so my curiosity with you specifically is maybe the work that you've done in couples, and we can also just shift to where you're most inspired, but do you find people are lacking the spark? Okay, so they're lacking a spark, especially after being together for many years. And so they're trying to generate it through, I don't know, some other means. And maybe is that a symptom of not really looking at that?

Philippe Lewis (40:57)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa D (41:08)
I mean, I have a different thought too, because I think that most people just getting more embodied, the spark or that energy is naturally gonna come through, but it may not be like the toxic sex that we're maybe referring to. ⁓ I'm just curious your thoughts. Yeah.

Philippe Lewis (41:21)
I have two theories.

One theory is that they reach their maximum capabilities, their maximum abilities to connect, like the maximum depth that they're able to connect with the other person, because they're not emotionally intelligent enough, or they're emotionally literate. You know, it'd be like, for example, like if the other person's a book, then if you don't understand half the words in it,

and you're trying to read the other person, like you can only understand so much because the words are too complicated. For example, like I'm just trying to use like the idea of emotional intelligence and the ability to perceive to a depth that's limited will mean that the relationship will only grow to a certain point of intimacy. And that intimacy will basically stall there and it's just not gonna, it's not really gonna go deeper.

Now that's one possibility and another possibility. And it could be the same around insecurity. Like insecurities are playing out and the interactions, and it prevents the ability to feel safer and go deeper into trust. And so again, there's limitations. Like you start to feel like this is as far as I can go with this person. But if you become more secure,

My interpretation is you continue to dive deeper, but it's not a deeper that's more sparkly. It's a down regulating deeper. It's a deeper as in like you're getting closer and closer and you see more and more and more details, more richness. And that richness is not an exciting, my God, what am I gonna find? And is it gonna be there tomorrow kind of excitement? It's the kind of, yeah, peak experiences always have to stop. Everything that goes up must come down.

Melissa D (43:03)
Like a peak experience. Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (43:09)
Same

Melissa D (43:10)
Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (43:10)
thing for emotions, but if the development of relating with somebody goes towards deeper, more richness, then what your experience is just a... it's an enriching experience. It's not an exciting experience. So it's not sparkly. Not in that way. Not in the way that people think like, my god, I meet somebody new and I don't know what they're gonna do and they're gonna love me, they're not gonna love me. When you're orienting towards a secure relationship,

You're not looking for that. You're looking for how can I get closer, more intimate, not in a sexual intimacy kind of way, but as in like, I'm getting closer because closer feels good. It feels even more grounded. It's like a cuddling

Melissa D (43:40)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (43:54)
kind of closer, but on all levels, energetically, emotionally, in terms of how you relate.

And getting closer can look like you know this person so well that you can almost speak for them. If you dance with them, if you move with them, you almost know exactly how they move. And it's not perfect, because it's not meant to be, but there's this sense of oneness that emerges from that. And it's not an exciting thing. It's not an oh my God thing. It's a sort of like...

Melissa D (44:16)
Beautiful.

Philippe Lewis (44:30)
coming down closer to the ground. so, wait, wait. ⁓

Melissa D (44:33)
Do you think people in

relationships kind of need to generate some sort of novelty like what Esther Perel talks about? I mean, we can get into the weeds here. Yeah.

Philippe Lewis (44:42)
Right. yeah, her book, ⁓ Baiting in Captivity. Yeah,

what she's saying essentially is that you create a little distance so that you cross it. It basically requires you to cross it and there's a little bit of unknown in that crossing. Right. Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that. But I think usually when the spark dies down, it's because people are becoming more secure with each other.

Melissa D (44:57)
Little mystery, intrigue, ⁓

Philippe Lewis (45:09)
Secure is not that you know doesn't create movies. You know, it's not it's not the thing that that That creates romance novels. It's completely the opposite. It's like it's boring in from from that perspective But it's also the thing that allows you to raise your kids and your kids feel what you have Not as a sparkly. I don't know what's gonna happen. But as a as a grounded like base that they individuate from

Melissa D (45:18)
Right. ⁓

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (45:39)
So like the idea that things have to be sparkly is, you know, it's, I think it's an American or Western thing. And I don't think it's a thing that is necessarily something we need to be looking for. But if people want to look for it, yes, what you described is perfect. Like what Esther Perel in Mating in Captivity says, like you create an artificial distance.

Melissa D (45:47)
Yeah.

Right.

Philippe Lewis (46:05)
that underneath the surface, you know you're together and you're not creating like a real risk, but you're playing as if you are. And so, in as many ways to do this through role play and BDSM and even polyamory, you know, get to have the stability of your relationship while at the same time going to explore with people you don't know. I mean, that will toss things around and shake the snow globe.

Melissa D (46:14)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. That'll do it.

Philippe Lewis (46:33)
and create attachment like activation because you like you might feel safe with your person but if they go and possibly bond with somebody else stuff might come up so you have to be careful with that.

Melissa D (46:34)
Yeah

Yeah.

Which is a whole other podcast actually. I'm sure you could go real deep in there.

Philippe Lewis (46:52)
Let's do it. Totally.

mean, I have 20, 20, let's see, 22 years since I started my relationship with my, with my partner, who's now her name is Padgett and we're essentially nesting partner, co-parent, best friends. Like I, she knows me and I know her better than anybody else. We basically run our household. We have a son, we're raising him.

And, you know, this is is our our version of romantic relationship or family that's more like evolved into family. And and as we settled into that, it's become the most regulated, secure relationship I've ever had. And I I and I have a new partner also that we're also very secure. And it's like she loves my family and I love her. like, there's just it just seems to be expanding. So it's not, you know, like

Melissa D (47:28)
Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (47:47)
having another lover is not about finding something I don't have, it's about expanding what I have. And it's beautiful.

Melissa D (47:51)
That's beautiful.

Yeah, I'm wondering like what I want to tap on here with you as we wind down our evening. Yeah, what do you think are some of the elements that make exploring open relationships really successful? And do you think they're, yeah.

Philippe Lewis (48:13)
There's a few things. mean, you know, besides the, you know, besides the one chapter that talks about polyamory and play events or some version of that in mating and captivity, like the excitement of new person that you don't know yet that you get to discover. Like that's exciting. But it's also the fear of not knowing. Like the excitement that you experience when you're discovering somebody new is essentially the unknown. The fear of the unknown is also exciting because what you find

Melissa D (48:33)
Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (48:41)
could also be, you know, it's like a treasure hunt, like what you might find could be amazing, but it could also be really bad. So you don't know that until you find out. But if you're a very secure person, you move slowly and you discover and you adjust and it's like a contact dance. So wait, what was the question again?

Melissa D (48:46)
Yeah.

Right?

You know, just off the top,

and again, like, I know we could go really deep in here, ⁓ but what are some of the elements in all your years? You know, because it's been a hot topic for as long as I've been in the community of like some version of open, poly, non-hierarchical, and there's lots of different labels, right?

Philippe Lewis (49:06)
Yeah, yeah.

yeah.

Okay, so basically

why poly or why open and like what, why would somebody want that? Yeah.

Melissa D (49:24)
What creates success? Yeah, well, not

only why, but what makes it successful? Because I think a lot of people just kind of jump in without doing some groundwork. And there's some blind spots for sure. Thank God we've got better books and resources now than we did, right, 20 years ago.

Philippe Lewis (49:31)
Mmm.

I see. Well,

mean, polyamory started with this idea that if you had the right structure, that it would work. But I think it did not take into account people doing it because of insecurity. ⁓ avoidance do poly very differently than anxious people and disorganized people. So we haven't talked about the attachment style, so I'm not really going to go into

Melissa D (49:56)
Mm.

Philippe Lewis (50:07)
why that is, but if insecurity is present, then you're doing your relationships with that in the background. So that will inherently create unstable relationships. I mean, even with just one person, but if you add more people, it's not gonna be more stable for that reason. It'll be even more unstable because now you have multiple insecure people just trying to balance emotionally on each other. That doesn't work. So, but ever since

Melissa D (50:26)
Yeah.

Philippe Lewis (50:34)
Open slash poly started happening. There's been people who decided to cohabitate, nest together like this and create very grounded polycules. And so, and that's always been reference points, but lately being poly and being open has basically been, it's sort of the new version of dating without huge commitments. But people really trying and because now it's more popular, it's more...

more in the culture, there's more books. So people are trying different structures, whether it's solo poly or as relationship anarchy or polyamory or ethical non-monogamy. What I've come to realize is that it's just an exploration for finding a different way of being grounded in community with the people you love. And it's become more acceptable to have multiple lovers than they used to.

Melissa D (51:20)
Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (51:27)
Because people are not getting married and having just one partner anymore. They don't have to do that. Some people might even have a kid and not even be together, but they're co-parent. So there's a multiplicity of relationship models that have exploded. Personally, I like poly or slash open slash ethical non-monogamy because it allows different versions of me to emerge.

Like if you're dancing with somebody new, like a new dancer kind of emerges to meet them and you get to discover that new version of yourself because you're dancing with them. So there's like a there's an enlivening and as an expansion that can happen with new new people that was unknown before that. Another version, which is very common, is like the perspective that nobody can meet all of your needs. And fair enough, like.

know, maybe you like rock climbing and your current life partner is just not a rock climber and so you go and find other rock climbers and you go knock yourself out. I mean it could be that or it could be loverships, it could be BDSM, it could be kink, it could be be anything. So I think the difference is nowadays it's intimacy can become part of the diversification of friendships and relationships that wasn't present before.

Melissa D (52:25)
.

Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (52:42)
The only difficult, the biggest difficulty I'd say is that I think we're hardwired, most people are hardwired for having one solid relationship. And I think that comes from being, from when we were young and we were mostly attached to our primary caregiver. So I think that stays with us forever. And I think the more insecure we are, the more we're looking for that.

and the harder it is to find because the insecurity is driving us. So even if we find somebody, we might not believe it. But that said, if we are more secure, then we form more secure bonds that may or may not include sexuality as part of it. It might include just sensuality. It might include anything because it's not about sex and it's not about the sensuality. It's really about the bond and what is the bond available for.

Melissa D (53:35)
Hmm.

Philippe Lewis (53:35)
So

I think secure attachment plays a big role in the ways that we socially like bond deeply in meaningful ways with others and then allowing for what's available to emerge from that. So I think that's the, to me that's the most salient and the most significant and meaningful way that I wanna connect with others. It's if it includes sex, it includes sex. If it doesn't include sex, it's still really awesome.

Melissa D (53:49)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (54:04)
and

it still gives me a sense of togetherness, it still gives me a sense of care on both directions. so I've sort of evolved my view on Pauly into what I call ethical... what was that? Sorry, considerate non-monogamy.

Melissa D (54:20)
I love it. Tell me about it.

Philippe Lewis (54:21)
Yeah, well, I I feel like to do multiple

relationships well, you have to be extra considerate. Like, consideration is so important, right? It's like totally obvious. Like, it's not just about being ethical. Like, being ethical, you know, might just feel a little dry, but to be considerate and loving means that the people that you've decided to bond with at different levels, including sexuality, are people that

Melissa D (54:28)
⁓ a thousand percent. Yes. Hmm.

Philippe Lewis (54:48)
matter. And in my definition, it's actually my friend Dolphin's definition, so if he's watching this, he'll know. Consideration is what matters to you matters to me. And imagine that being being pointed in multiple directions. So you have to consider a lot. And you have to consider that if you're connecting with this person, that might impact this person. And you have to because because you know,

Melissa D (54:53)
That feels good.

Philippe Lewis (55:12)
Emotionally your emotional body is moving in that direction and they might feel like you're moving away. They might get dysregulated They might have a hard time but considerate nomenagami says I only want to create movement that actually feels good to everyone in their own way and So it's it's way more than it's it's it's yeah it just requires a lot of attention and a lot of care and a lot of attunement and and a lot of collaboration

Melissa D (55:27)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Philippe Lewis (55:40)
which are all my core values.

Melissa D (55:41)
I love that version.

Yeah, I really like that map of relating. I mean, I get so much nourishment out of my community and I'm not intimate with everybody or sexual with everybody, but there's love and there's care and there's different flavors and different dancing and different da da. And then

Philippe Lewis (55:56)
Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa D (55:59)
you know, that feels better to me than say the anarchy where everyone's just kind of doing whatever. And that may work for some people, but man, I've just noticed that, yeah, there's a lot of different ways that people could take it and a lot of things that may make sense for where they are in their lives. And, whew, yeah.

Philippe Lewis (56:15)
Yeah, I

mean, I'm looking at what's the most stable, meaningful way that I can bond with others. And I use my family and my deepest relationships as reference points. Like, I want more of that. I want the kind of relationships that help me face the circumstances that come at me regardless of whether I'm a good person or a bad person. Like, there's there's things that happen and you want to have your people with you when things happen.

Melissa D (56:23)
Mm-hmm.

That's beautiful. Well, Philippe, do you want to give me a little kind of rundown of what you're putting your energy into these days? What things you might want to share with the audience that they may want to attend? Yeah, what do got going on?

Philippe Lewis (56:56)
Well, I've got many projects Club Exotica is still happening. Our midsummer event is going to be our midsummer event is going to be happening on August 1st. I just talked to the person so you can go to clubexoticapresents.com. also have an attachment repair retreat called Coming Home to Love.

Melissa D (57:00)
⁓ I love it.

Philippe Lewis (57:19)
the most salient piece of feedback that we've received and I've experienced it for myself is I have never felt this safe in my entire life. Like what would it take to be at a retreat that totally does not push you? Like it's not, it's not a personal development, transformational retreat that's like pushing you at your edges. It's the kind of retreat where you find your center, you find your ground with a group of loving group of people and facilitators, including myself. And

Melissa D (57:27)
Wow.

Philippe Lewis (57:47)
we develop practices around continuously strengthening and grounding more deeply inside of ourselves and outside of ourselves, including all of our inner parts. And so that's coming home to love. It's this idea that if you find your center inside yourself and with others, there's this sort of like, I'm coming back to this place that I feel really good to be in. So yeah, it's a reference point of secure.

Melissa D (57:58)
Mm-hmm. I love that.

Philippe Lewis (58:14)
That's what we're trying to create for people, this kind of experiential embodied experience of secure so that they never forget.

Melissa D (58:15)
I'd love it.

Philippe Lewis (58:22)
that's happening in April and then I have another festival that's called Firelight. That's a play possible micro festival that's small, sexy, intimate, but just, but completely open. Like people can show up and just be exactly where they're at. Then they can explore as far as they want. And there are play events and there's and live music and DJs.

And we just find a way to come together in a way that feels like deep connection with core values that orient towards that. So sorry I interrupted you. So the coming up to love is going to be in Hawaii in April. Firelight is a micro festival and that's happening near Yosemite in California at the end of May.

Melissa D (58:52)
And where's, you're good. Where's that retreat at? The firelight.

I love it. And then club Exotica. I'm going to have to pop in one of these times, go back there for old time's sake. ⁓ Philippe. Yeah, thank you so much. It was a pleasure having you on. I feel like we could talk for another couple hours on a couple of different subjects. So I'm excited to have you back. ⁓ Where do people find you?

Philippe Lewis (59:12)
You should. Oh my God, absolutely. We'd love to have you.

I'd love that.

You can find me on my website exquisite.love and you can also find me on Instagram, ScorpioDreaming and you can also find me, well, you can find firelight at firelight.love. Mostly I present my projects as separate pieces, but exquisite.love is where everything's together. There's firelight.love and then there's coming home to.love as well.

I love the dot loves.

Melissa D (59:55)
Wonderful. They're fitting. They're very fitting. Yeah, thank you again for making time tonight. And yeah, I look forward to having you back.

Philippe Lewis (59:58)
Perfect. Yeah.

was a pleasure. Thank you.

Melissa D (1:00:05)
Bye bye.