S4/E37- Why Time Doesn’t Heal the Loss, But What Might Help (Part 3)

In Part 3, Bruce and Kristin talk about what grieving parents often need most: to be seen, not fixed.

They explore why it matters when others say our child’s name, ask how they lived instead of how they died, and allow grief to be spoken out loud without trying to make it better.

This conversation touches on forever parenthood, the loneliness that can come from society’s invisible grief timeline, and the permission to grieve for life, while still holding joy.

Because love didn’t end.
And neither did our role as their parent.

Transcript

Seen, Not Fixed

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Welcome back to Don't Forget to Breathe. I'm Bruce Barker here with my co-host, Kristen Glenn. In the first parts of this conversation, we talked about the myth that time heals all wounds and how grief doesn't expire, even as support sometimes does. In this final part, we want to talk about something many grieving parents quietly long for. To simply be seen where we are, not fixed, not rushed, not encouraged to look for the silver lining, just seen. We live in a culture where it's okay to talk about our children until they die. And then suddenly their name becomes something people are afraid to say. Conversations become awkward, memories go unshared, and grief becomes something we're expected to carry silently. So tonight we're talking about what it means to let grief be spoken out loud, to talk about our child without trying to make anything better, and why asking how they lived can be far more healing than asking how they died. Let's take a breath and continue the conversation. Would would you say, and I think it it I can speak it to be true for me that, and we'll see what our listeners think, you know. Let us know what you think about this. That if we just want to be seen where we are, because we're not toxic, we're not contagious, and be okay with letting the grief just be spoken out loud, that it's okay to talk about our child, but not try to make it better in the same, you know, in the same breath. So that they can, you know, so that they could ask and and talk about, oh, you know, this with Kristen or I remember that or what just speak openly about it, but not try to fix anything. Just see us where we are and be there beside us.

Joy Posts That Hide Sorrow

SPEAKER_01 2:39

I yeah, we live in a culture that we talk about our children often, but it's like the the ending of their time here on earth is some kind of switch where we're not supposed to do that anymore. It becomes taboo or I even watched like on I watched this incredible string on Facebook. This this friend of my daughter's had gone through a really tragic loss, and she was trying to say, yes, I went through this loss, and now I'm working on bringing joy into my life. And you know, she showed a picture of her new baby, and she had so many responses, but not one response validated that she was talking about sorrow. Every single response went to, oh, what a cute baby, and what a, you know, congrats. And yes, that was part of the message, but her brave, courageous post was, I am navigating deep, deep sorrow. And there wasn't one response on that social media platform that said, I see you. I see all of you. It basically it was so shocking to me to see that all people were comfortable with was validating just the joy part. It was it was such an example of how we do that, that we can't say, I also see your sorrow. And that doesn't diminish diminish the joy.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

And even seeing the the power and the strength of her vulnerability to put that out there.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Yes.

Speak Their Names In Present Tense

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Acknowledging that and to be able to go, okay, they see me. And not the the silver lining parts, they see me. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I think with with some of those things that we talk about that do help, and as we're saying, that is is with uh the language that honors the love that we have. And I say that as have, not had.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

No past tense there. No past dense.

One Friend Who Makes Him Real

SPEAKER_02 5:02

And being able to to say their name and have conversations and tell stories. Is I mean, is there someone that you um you don't have to name names, but who lets you talk about Zach without trying to make anything better that sits with you?

SPEAKER_01 5:19

One person.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

One person, one literal soulmate friend that just embraces those conversations and shares them and you know, goes through that. What's interesting is that it's not painful as much. I mean, that's I guess where my grief has shifted. It's so joyful for us to have conversations about him. It's and for me to hear maybe a new memory that she because she was a big part of his life. So for her to to also say, Oh yeah, and one time and to make him real, I think that's the other thing. I love when people allow him to just be an honri little boy and not, you know, some saint, because he was Honri. Yeah and he was not perfect. And it's so incredible. But yeah, that when you ask that question, that's it's narrowed. And and she's truly the only person that brings him up just organically. It's not forced, it's not just on certain days. I welcome when people say, which will come and this month of February, thinking of you and Zach on this day of his birthday. I mean, that's very sweet this many years later, and I don't I don't fault people, but also I missed him a month ago on Wednesday night at 10 p.m. And I missed him when I was watching this train go by, and it's not like I consolidate all my missing of him for three days a year. Right. You know? What about you? Who do you have that talks really just um naturally about your sweet Kristen?

SPEAKER_02 7:10

No one.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Yeah.

Ask How They Lived, Not Died

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Um, I think that's probably the reality for probably uh a large majority of our listeners. There's not me. I mean, again, I'm single and I was I was single at the time Kristen died. So maybe couples, there may be those honest conversations, maybe. But for me, no. The only time, and it's really only slightly, is those that uh find out that I from work or acquaintances that way that find out that I I have this, you know, this podcast that we're on and what the subject matter is. And maybe somebody might ask, but no one is asking, well, tell me about her. It's yes, just the the probably the only question that that I've heard them step out into is can you tell me how she died? Or are you okay with sharing that? But not a single one has said, well, tell me about her. What does she like to do? What did what was nothing?

SPEAKER_01 8:14

So and why are we why do we ask how children died instead of how they lived? Like tell me how Kristen lived.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

It's such a powerful question. Tell me about anything is a gift. I I always think when I can have images in my mind now of a child that someone has loved and lost, and it's such a gift for me when they'll share those pictures, those silly things, the smell of their dirty socks, the the way they, you know, I love to hear those things, but we don't ask them enough because I think what we're worried about is that the grief is bound to follow and it will be a deep sorrow, and I'm not equipped to deal with that. So if I open this door towards asking Bruce about Kristen, how can it possibly not go into his deep sorrow? And I won't know how to deal with that, so I'm just not gonna ask.

Photos As Invitations To Stories

Forever A Parent

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Yeah. It's easier not to talk about than to talk about. I mean, if you think about it, and this may be for you know, future episodes when we talk about how you can, you know, how people can support those who have not had had a child loss can support those who have and those those friends, family, whatever that might be. Because when you ask how did they, and and again, I don't mind, people can ask me anything they want. I am I'm a completely open book about it. But if you want to know the details, can you tell me what happened? Okay, do you want me to tell you about where I was and when I got the phone call and what my reaction was, and then I don't remember driving 35 miles back to my office? And because if I'm telling that story where I am now, one of the things that time has given me is it is it lets me go right back to that moment. Yes. If that's what you want me thinking about, and that's fine. I I mean, I'm at the point where I can do that, but ask me about when you know we went to a Jimmy Buffett concert together, and I can picture it right now, and so then it's more so now I've got uh I'm smiling about it and thinking about it and and and remembering those you know, those kind of moments. I don't know, it might be, and maybe this is something that we talk about of what actually helps since we know time doesn't, is having those photos not I mean, and and I have you know, something that someone could look at it and interpret this as, you know, this is uh a shrine or a memorial on a particular shelf, but well, let's say at work of having those candid type photos, I can have I could put that photo up, and maybe I'll just do this just to see. Put the photo up of her wearing her, you know, balloon uh parrot head um, you know, on her head, and we're both and and this was well, this is way before having actually a selfie, but there's it is the two of us, and we're at this Jimmy Buffett concert, and for someone to say, tell me about that.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

And then I can tell them about how much she loved what dad listened to and wanted to go to the concert, and we went to the concert and she knew the words, and we had a blast, you know, those yeah, ask those questions.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Oh my gosh. I hope you'll put that picture up. We want to we all want to hear how that how that goes. Because I mean, I can picture it. You just gave me a gift of a moment with Kristen that I didn't have four minutes ago. And I think that the right people will be in your space to also take that memory away. You know, one thing struck me, I don't remember when we were talking, and I don't know if it was on a episode or just in our many off-air conversations, but you said to me, Bruce, that it took you a long time to continue to acknowledge yourself as a parent, not of Kristen's dad, but to say, I am forever a father. Can you tell me about what shifted for you? I will always view you as a father, as your friend, but what when did that shift happen for you?

Different Numbers, Same Love

SPEAKER_02 12:53

I was kind of, I wouldn't, I don't know, forced into it, pushed into it, whatever you want to say is the first four years after Krista died, I was single. If someone would ask, you know, hey, do you have any kids? Nine times out of ten, I would say, no, I don't. Because I discounted their question and go, I'm already concluding, going, I don't think you want to go down this road. Right. You don't want me to actually tell you the truth and tell you what the deal is. And so uh that's how I avoided how I went around the swamp. But where I got pushed into it, so to speak, is when I got married, my okay, so my now ex-wife um had three sons. So now we're in situations where if people know that it's a new newish marriage or whatever, and they ask the question, if you're if we're in a group setting and it's like you, you know, do you have any kids? Yeah, like, yeah, I've got I have these three boys, and then and well, Bruce, did do you have any of your own? And I would say, I am I have these three, uh, but my daughter died in 2006. So you ask me and I'm gonna tell you. And so then that put me back into I am still a parent to my daughter.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

But it was it was yeah, initially kind of avoiding, maybe is the right word. I don't know. Protecting. Yeah, and then also but just feeling like I'm not a dad anymore. Until being in a situation that I realized I still am, whether she's here or not.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Absolutely. I believe that at my core.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah, so really sometime fairly early on in the marriage, having that realization that, oh, I'm a dad again, but then wait a minute, I've always been it never changed, it never stopped.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Right. I've been a dad, absolutely. We were in a setting one time, my husband, someone asked us kind of simultaneously, how many children do you guys have? And it was recent, so total we have five children with Zach. And at the exact same time, I said five, he said four. And and you know, this is the only marriage we've had, and so uh we kind of looked at each other and the conversation, you know, just went on. But afterwards, I had to really check in with him and say, four? Do you always say four? What? Why'd you say four? You know, I just it felt it felt um like he was what about Zach? But then he put it so wisely back to me and he said, I'm just protecting myself and Zach. They don't I'm never gonna see those people again. They don't deserve to know about him. I'm saving him. I'm saving him for the people that deserve him. And I thought, okay, that's beautiful. It's beautiful that, you know, we can both live in that. Like I've never not been able to say five, and now I know that when he's in a situation that he doesn't think will ever blossom into anything other than a casual person at a party, he's gonna protect himself because he doesn't he doesn't want to go into it. And that that's okay. That's not a minimizing of his love or his grief for Zach. But it was a weird moment that I didn't realize was happening separately until we had it happen together. Does that make sense? Like, wow, we just said different numbers.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

I think our listeners get that. Those that are are couples will get that.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Well, and I think you just speak the truth of so many people that I I work with that have lost their only child.

unknown 17:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

You know, I mean that is a really important thing to to hear and validate of that forever parenthood. That forever parenthood. We don't get to actively parent them on this earth, but being their forever, their forever mom, their forever dad. But I know it's it comes with its own sharpness, and it's something I think we really need to be curious about for each other.

Solo, Not Alone

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Yeah. Kristen, what would you tell the parents that are listening that feel isolated or maybe not a part of, even though we we invite them all the time to be a part of this community, but because there's been this society, you know, kind of giving this timeline, I guess a good way to put it is society's, it's an invisible grief clock, right? There's when there's been enough time. What would you tell the parents that are listening? You're not isolated, you're not alone, you don't have to, you're not tied to this clock.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Yeah. Gosh, I think I would hear them that it feels that they are it is a lonely journey. That it is you do have to kind of figure it out ultimately on your own. But to have people walking alongside of you is invaluable. I had a lot of people that were incredibly supportive. But I feel like I ultimately had to figure this out for myself. My husband couldn't do it, my mom couldn't do it, my best friend. Nobody could uh do this work for me, you know. So it sounds it sounds kind of counterintuitive to say it, but uh I would almost say you are a bit alone in the true navigation of this. And that's okay because your relationship with your child was uniquely yours and now your grief is going to be uniquely yours. And you can be in a a wonderful supportive group, relationship, situation, and there will be still so many moments that you feel completely alone because ultimately I kind of feel like you are. I know that doesn't sound like maybe the the the right answer, but I think it's kind of real for most people. And to to not validate that I think makes us feel like, well, then I'm the only person feeling alone. So now I'm alone in my aloneness. But to just actually say, yep, we all are. We are all truly navigating this, regardless of our situations, we are all truly navigating this. Not by ourselves, that's not the right word, but solo, right? Solo.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

Yeah. Because what I was thinking in that is definitely solo and we're all in the same boat. Individually.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

But still collectively in the same boat. So it's this what we're doing with this podcast is creating this community. So while you may feel alone and while your your grief and your journey is unique, you can know that you are part of this community. That we see you, we see you in your aloneness, in your isolation because we've all felt it and feel it.

unknown 21:08

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

We feel it together.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Yeah. That's it's that's exactly right.

Breaking The Invisible Grief Clock

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah, so it is, it's it's um, um, it's it's solo. So I do kind of along the same thing with you know, with my real job, I'm able to travel and take some fun trips, but I do them solo. So they're solo trips. But I'm around so many other people in these amazing places that I've been able to go. While I'm still solo, I'm still experiencing something that's unique and is different and that I can see other people. Um, so especially if if it's at a particular, and I mean I hate to use the word attraction, but something that that a tourist spot maybe be drawn to. I can see all of the other people that are enjoying it and seeing it and experiencing, experiencing it and feeling it, even though I'm solo.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

Yeah, but you're not you're not alone.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

But I'm not alone. I think there's a difference there. Where we are in this community is I don't know how you feel, but I get it. We're just in we're on the same boat. Yeah. Yeah, but still solo.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

So because I think if people think, oh no, other people don't feel alone because they had. X amount of siblings, or they have this perfect marriage, or they have really supportive parents, you know, it's it's going back to what we do with all the social media. We think, oh, they must not feel alone. And if you talk to anyone after this type of tragedy, there have been moments they feel completely alone. They feel like they are having to navigate it solo. So I think that's an interesting thing to to think about and to help validate. So there's not that that sense of others aren't having to figure this out on their own because they have a lot of people walking alongside them, they're still having to figure out their own path.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Yeah. Do you think that some of that loneliness is attributed to pressure that um, you know, society's grief clock. That if you're not aligned with what society thinks, where society thinks you should be on the timeline or in the in whatever stages, that's where that loneliness can come out. Because now you've been you've been isolated by society thinking, or that you're feeling the pressure of society thinking, you should be at some other point by now. So why am I not? So therefore, okay, this is too much, or I'm I'm still sad. Yeah, you're gonna be sad.

Permission To Grieve For Life

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Right. Well, and there's almost this shame in that. Yeah. That I'm I'm failing grief. I'm not doing it the right way. I remember working with this um this mom vividly talking about. She said something along the lines of like, is there like a grief trophy if I do this right? If I do it the way my mom and my sister want me to do, do I get a a grief trophy? And I was like, nope. Nope. And there's this thought of, well, what if people think that I'm not doing this in the right timeline? Or I had my own um processing around what to do. Um, my husband and I with with Zach's remains, and it's such a personal decision. There's absolutely excruciating to be having to make that decision for your child in the first place. But we moved communities and, you know, didn't for like 20 years decide that there was like a a space that we wanted his his remains to be. And we invited friends and family 20 years later to be part of that. And one, again, well-meaning soul, but a friend of mine that tends to be a bit blunt came up and he's like, Why now? Why do we have to do this now? We were all so sad in the beginning after Zach's death. Why do we have to bring this all up again? I was like, oh man, we made you uncomfortable today because I've asked people to gather for this, you know, internment that felt right for me at this stage of my life, not to have this be something I didn't put some closure to and make a decision that was right for my husband, you know, for my husband and I. But he did say that to me. Like, why now? Why do we have to keep, you know, if I ever did something in the future, honoring a milestone for Zach, I won't include him.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Yeah, I mean, that sounds like the that's the perfect example of that societal grief clock.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Yeah. And his clock was ticked. He didn't want to do this anymore.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Yeah, and uh it's a matter of giving giving yourself permission to grieve for life. And by saying grieve for life, that's not a you're going to be sad and and depressed and in a dark place. That's not it. Because it just it's grieving, because grief stays with you, and it's just how you get along and what you've what you've learned along the way, and what you've learned worked and what didn't work, because grief is still there. So we we've talked about that where joy and grief are can be in the same moment. So talking about, you know, Kristen, that memory of Kristen and I at the concert, there's still grief when I'm remembering and saying that, because that can that won't happen again. Right. And so I grieve the fact that we don't get to do that again, but joy in remembering that time.

unknown 26:55

Yeah.

Love And Grief Hand In Hand

SPEAKER_02 26:56

And seeing her face and listening to her sing along and know all the words. It's but it's just giving you giving ourselves permission to continue that, no matter what society's timeline says, where we should be at a particular time. I think one, you know, as we kind of wrap up a little bit, that we know, I think there's there's not much of a truer statement. We know that time doesn't heal because l love doesn't end. And we know that the healing, the love is still there. So love and grief, and and I know I've heard it, and I'm sure you have too about you know, the measure of someone's grief is equal to the measure of someone's love, and whatever those, you know, the the things are. So time's not gonna heal what's not gonna go away, which is the love. And we'll always have that, the love and the grief hand in hand.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Yeah. And it's really just learning to live alongside both of them. I think there's some beauty in that and some curiosities about what both have to teach us. You know, my my grief teaches me every single day, just like my love does, and and I'm kind of equally comfortable with both of them after this many years. I guess that's what has changed, not because of time, but because of the intentional journey that I've put myself on and that I've witnessed others, and there's just so much to be learned. This has been really thought-provoking. This will not be an episode that I can just turn off in my brain. I'm gonna have to do an extra, extra um walk around the block tonight after this one, because it has brought up a lot, not in a sorrowful way, but in a a really important way for me personally. So I hope it has for people listening as well.

You’re Not Broken

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Well, I mean, I think that's the like I say, we continue to learn and we continue to the continue to heal. And I think this is uh it's a prime example. The uh, you know, in our conversation, there's things that come up and and it's like, okay, I need to process that a little more. It doesn't mean I'm broken.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Far from it. Far from it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

It just means I still love Kristen now as much as I ever did before.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

I think for all of the parents that are out there listening, I think that's probably a very true statement if you allow yourself to sit in it, is that you're not broken. You're loving your child just as much as you did when they were walking around on this earth. Or depending on the case, it might have been two days that they were here or didn't even make it. So love's not gone. So we've we've mentioned it before. If there's anything that resonated with you in this episode, we invite you to come share your story. And we'll do it in the same, the same format and the same uh space that Chris and I are recording tonight. It is a platform where you can be wherever you are in the world. You don't need any special equipment and to come on and and share your story. All right, Kristen, I appreciate you. I appreciate the time. Thank you for being open and sharing.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Same, same, Bruce. I it's been really good to talk through some of those things, and I hope it brought some meaning for other people. You guys all take care.

Share Your Story Invitation

SPEAKER_02 30:36

As we close out this conversation on why time doesn't heal the loss, but what might help, I want to remind you of something that may feel really important to hear. You are not broken. You're loving your child just as much today as you did when they were here on this earth. And because that love didn't end, the grief didn't either. It's not about following a timeline. It's not about earning a grief trophy. It's not about being better because enough time has passed. Over these three episodes, we've talked about what time doesn't do, but we also talked about what might help being seen, being supported, doing the work, and giving yourself permission to grieve for life while still allowing room for joy, for memories, and for the love that continues. If anything in this series resonated with you, we invite you to share your story. This space is created for parents just like you, wherever you are on your journey. Until next time, I am Bruce Barker, along with Kristen Glenn, and please don't forget to breathe.