E426- All The Empty Rooms Documentary; A Reflection on Grief and Love

In this episode, Bruce and Kristin reflect on the Academy Award winning documentary All the Empty Rooms, a film that quietly and honestly invites viewers into the sacred spaces left behind after the loss of a child.

Rather than offering answers or silver linings, the film simply bears witness, to bedrooms untouched, to memories preserved, and to the deep, ongoing connection between parents and their children.

Bruce and Kristin explore why the film’s simplicity is what makes it so impactful, how grief lives in physical spaces, and why there is no “right way” to hold onto what remains. They share personal experiences of being in these rooms, both as grieving parents and as supporters walking alongside others, and reflect on the importance of curiosity, presence, and allowing grief to exist without being fixed.

This conversation also challenges the cultural instinct to soften tragedy or rush toward strength, instead inviting us to sit in the reality of loss, to honor it, and to better understand what it means to support someone living through it.

Because behind every closed door, every untouched room, is not emptiness, but love that remains.

Transcript

Welcome And Film Setup

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Welcome to Don't Forget to Breathe. I'm Bruce Barker, here with my co-host, Kristen Glenn. Before we get into this episode, I want to take a moment to give a shout out to our latest supporter, Paul. Your support helps us reach parents all over the world who need this space. We truly appreciate you, Paul. Thank you. Today we're talking about the documentary All the Empty Rooms. This documentary won an Academy Award earlier this month for Best Documentary Short. This film stayed with me. Not because it was dramatic, but because it was honest. It doesn't try to fix anything. It doesn't offer answers. It simply lets you sit in the reality of grief. And I'll say this: this is not a film you casually watch in the background. This is one you sit with when you feel. It takes us into spaces most people never see. The bedrooms, the quiet places, the rooms that hold what's left of a child's life. And what it reveals is something we talk about often here. Grief isn't something to solve, it's something to witness. In this episode, we're going to talk about what this film gets right, why it matters, and what it shows us about connection, about memory, and about love that doesn't end. So wherever you are, take a breath and let's step into this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

You told me about this film, and I think I took it too lightly. I started watching and kind of doing things at the same time, which I often do with the TV on, and I realized this was a sit, focus, be present, and it has absolutely stayed with me. You know, it's it isn't overdone. It's not for shock value. It's not done in this dramatic way. It's done in these are everyday lives, and I found it incredibly touching.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

And it was it was very, I mean, obviously, the content is very heavy. And what I found interesting, sort of side note, is that the documentary was 35 minutes long. And my thought after that was that's about all you can handle. And then thinking, but we do the same thing. We break these when we have episodes, we try to stay, and we do the editing to break them down if it's multiple episodes, to around 30 minutes. And I'm because I'm like, it's pretty heavy, and it's hard to stay longer. And and I just found that that was interesting. I feel like it was intentional on their part. Like there's only so much of this because you don't want people to turn away. You want to wanted to watch this, stay with them. Yeah. Uh because this is yeah. And it's gonna be with people that haven't had a loss, like which is some of the stuff that we we hope to do, you know, with the podcast is get that out there for people who haven't had the loss, but as we talk about normalizing the conversation around grief, not normalizing what's happening, but but to be there for to support other people.

The Science Of Grief Breaks

SPEAKER_00 3:51

So when you're I'm talking about it being intentional, I mean, these are some smart folks that put this together. I've I admire Steve Hartman and and his crew and what he did with this, but I do wonder whether they looked into the science behind it, because there is some pretty incredible research about, you know, if we are intensely um involved in a discussion with someone or being exposed to something traumatic, our psyches do take breaks. They think of something kind of absurd. It's why all of a sudden someone giggles in the middle of a funeral. It's why children can be present with their grief. They've they've actually researched that a child can be deeply grieving for about one minute per year of their age, and then their psyche steps in and says, Hey, you've got to take a break. Go jump on the tramp or play with the dog. And sometimes I'd work with parents and they'd worry about their eight-year-old who would be weeping for their sister and then say, I'm gonna go play with the kid next door. And they'd think, What's wrong? They're they're not grieving now. And it was actually that child psyche stepping in and saying, You need a break. And I I feel like there's some really good science behind as adults. We have a longer span of grief attention span, if you will, but not much longer. You know, I used to, I used to do hour and a half grief support groups very, you know, for decades. And after about 45 minutes, really felt like it was appropriate to tell people, okay, let's stand, let's take a breath, let's get some water. Because to intensely hear these stories and imagine the grief of others for 90 minutes straight. So anyway, like you said, kind of a side note, but one more thing I admired about the intentionality of what they put together.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

So you mentioned Steve Hartman, who is a uh journalist uh with CBSU, and most of us probably know who he is. We definitely will know his voice or see his face because he was always on doing a lot of stuff with the news and with uh 60 Minutes. And as he pointed out himself in the documentary, that he was kind of the feel-good reporter, and he had covered so many school shootings and school tragedies that he was kind of like, okay, I I can't do that. I can't put it, keep putting a silver lining on stuff, and stepped out and did this project on his own before getting approval, but got it started, and I I um I was so impressed with what he did and the photographer that was with him, and you could see the authenticity on their faces. This was there's no acting. Yeah. Nope.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Even at that no, if you watch the Academy Awards, even as he accepted the awards, you could see his solemnness and his his reverence for this topic. Like he is not, oh, I got an award. That's exactly my goal. It was very much like, let's give and to give that mama a voice as she accepted the award on behalf of her sweet little girl. And just just the integrity. I really he he did something that our society isn't always great at, which is taking taking grief and not softening it for once.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Not over making it dramatic, as we've said, but but just the real life every day. Here's the image of these rooms, and that he felt drawn to do this, whether or not he had this network behind him. Um I was really proud of him. Not that, not that I know him, but really just proud of a journalist knowing the importance of the authenticity of that.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yeah.

Steve Hartman And Honest Journalism

SPEAKER_02 7:55

I don't know. I was I was really just impressed with just with the idea of it. And and for those that if you haven't seen it yet, it's on Netflix. I would highly recommend it. And like I say, it's only 35 minutes, and it's emotional, and it's very real. When I watched it and started, and and they stepped into the first bedroom, uh, that was you know, that's when it all kind of started to come together for me. And and there was a a moment early on where like one of the fathers was talking about his son's room, and the clothes are all still there from five years before. I mean, they washed the socks and underwear, but left everything else untouched. And it wasn't because they didn't want to lose his smell, they just wanted to be connected. Those who've listened to this before, if you go back to last season and the parent stories and Marnie, as she told the story of losing her daughter Joey. And the last episode when the last part, I was actually at their house, and that's where we recorded the last part, and then she brought me up to go in the room. And for me, it was hard to even just kind of walk across that threshold because this was hallowed ground to me, but to see everything there that's still been there, and I got a glimpse, just as I I I believe the intention of this documentary, I got a glimpse, and I got I feel like I got to know Joey a little bit. So the same as with these, you know, in watching this documentary, you feel a little closer. It's not just a face on a fence on some makeshift memorial. You're seeing more into the life of of who that child was. And that's what it felt like when I was in Joey's room. The stories I heard from Marnie as she told, even in you know, in the first two parts, now I'm seeing it, and I'm like, oh, I get it. That makes sense. So that was only room I've stepped in and had that had that direct connection with. But what about you? Have you done this before?

SPEAKER_00 10:20

You know, the the organization that I was a part of for a couple decades, we did crisis response. So we were in homes very frequently, and I would say I've probably been in maybe a hundred rooms of babies and children that have passed away. And the first, well, every time, every time it takes my breath away. I remember the first couple times a parent would say, Can I show you their room? I too would be hesitant in thinking, I'm not close enough or worthy, or this is this is sacred space. I don't want my I don't want my footprints on, you know. I I want to save what if what if I change something for you in that room somehow by having a stranger to your child in there? I don't want to change that level of connection, but it you could see as I said yes after the first time and realizing that it was such an honor and such a way to be connected and so heartbreaking. It took my breath away every single time. It also, I believe, allowed the parents to say, is this okay? Is this does this seem weird to you? And for me to say, absolutely not. This is not about you not wanting to move on, not wanting to work through your grief, holding on to the sorrow. This is about you wanting connection. And we don't have their physical presence anymore on this earth. So we want their physical presence in things. You know, I remember when Zach died, there was this kind of fury of let's let's clean things up, let's make it better for Kristen and her husband to be in this house. And like his fingerprints were washed off of a window. And I can remember just feeling like, how could, how could that have happened? That wasn't a dirty, that wasn't a dirty window. That was that was his fingerprints as he was sitting at that window with his dog. And that logical brain of mine saying it's it was just a smudged window, but really the mama part of me saying, no, he was just here. And that was such evidence that he was just here. So lots and lots of images that I hold very dear in my heart with parents that have trusted me to go into those spaces and and needed to hear that that is absolutely okay, if that's what feels right, and to tell the same message to parents that feel like I can't have this look the same. You know, I hope that this film doesn't make bereaved parents feel shame in the opposite being right for them of I needed to not have that room look the same. I needed to give away clothes. Like that's that's our message, right? Over and over is that it's it's no one's path but your own. You do right. There's no shoulds here. We don't know what you need. But this is what these parents in this specific documentary needed. And for a journalist, again, to honor that and to give voice to that and show the country that and then win the Academy Award for that. Like it was just, yeah. I gasp. I think I texted you immediately and was like, it won.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Oh yeah, I I was I was yelling at the TV. I mean, it was like uh my reaction was the same as as when uh when my favorite sports team wins. I mean, I I jumped up and you and cheered, and and then later I'm like, I did that for an Academy Award, but because it was this film.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

It felt so symbolic, didn't it? It feels like what we're trying to do, and it's it is symbolic of are we ready as a group of humans to be more authentic, to not be so afraid of talking about life and death and grief and sorrow.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

And that's what I hope. Me too. I mean, and that's kind of what it felt like. You know, this was though you know, the voters of you know, within the academy that that voted for this, there's something that they saw in that that they weren't afraid to go, yes, this was the one.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

That's right.

The Rooms As Connection Not Stuckness

SPEAKER_02 15:08

So that I I applaud their courage in doing that as well and voting for this. And and um I was encouraged by that happening that now there will be people who may have never heard of it that will watch. And again, if they're if it's not a grieving parent, but it's somebody that is walking that path with someone to go, what what what can I do to help? What can I exactly? It's like you can see that we're not you're not gonna fix anything. You're just gonna be there, you're just gonna support and wherever they are in their journey, and those that, you know, like you said, that have made changes and those that that keep it the same. Because like I say, it's not they're not stuck, but it's a chance, I mean, to hold on to that last physical connection. But it's not about, you know, like in the one that I mentioned a minute ago, it's not about the clothes. It's about their son. That's their that was the and then in and others in in some of these other rooms about the sons, the daughters, their personality, who they were. The one that had all her clothes lined up that she would do for the week. And and the hard part of looking at where it stopped. Because the the smells are going to fade, obviously, over time, but so it's not about that part, but it's about the space, about the connection to their child. And it's about the love.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Absolutely. I thought their approach of just being curious and just bearing witness, yeah. There wasn't a lot of pushed questions or it didn't feel like it was driven by we want each parent to answer these three questions. And, you know, it just didn't feel like a canned type of interview show. It felt like they walked into each one of those homes and bedrooms with just curiosity. And I think there's no greater gift that we can give to people that are grieving than to just be curious about their experience and not make the assumptions, not do the shoulds, but just being curious about what's your reality? What was important about keeping this room this way. And it was different for each parent, you know, some common themes, but but they had some different perspectives, which I thought was also beautiful and real.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Absolutely. One of the things that I I like too is is it wasn't you know, like a lot of stories that journalists do, they kind of put a bow on it, right? They wrap it up and maybe miss the heart necessarily of the story or trying to find a tagline. And I didn't feel that at all from Steve Hartman on this. It was just honest and genuine, and like you said, curious and emotionally struck as well. I just really like how they kind of how they came out with that. You know, there was a another family that I remember in there, and and daughter's name was Hallie, and they said something really important, and that the room is where they feel to go to get close to her, so when they where they go, but even to cry.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Yeah. I remember one time asking a group of women that were at a retreat that I was facilitating if they would give up their grief. If if we had a magic wand, could you all give up your grief today, in this moment? And I mean, these these women are dealing with the deepest sorrow imaginable as bereaved parents. But they they said almost in unison, like that grief, that sadness is part of our connection. So don't don't you take my grief. Don't don't tell me to stop grieving. That is my love. You know, I think there's a quote that says grief is love with nowhere to go. And I think that if these parents have those rooms be full of their tears and probably their laughter sometimes, I saw in one of the clips a package of Sour Patch Kids.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

You know, the candy. And I just thought how important for those parents to not have listened to anyone or had anyone invade that space and throw away what could be to others trash.

unknown 19:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Because it wasn't. It was the last snack of that five-year-old little girl. Yeah. And and for it to now become s something sacred is important for others to realize and to be curious about. Don't don't try to push me away from my my sadness and in fact give me a space for it.

unknown 20:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

What what better space is there to go in for sure to their room? Right. So I and I can see from the outsider those that haven't experienced this or even necessarily know or close to someone who has, looking and seeing that, oh well, they're just stuck. Because they're not changing, but that's where they feel connected. And to be able to go in there and cry and laugh and just feel them, that's not being stuck. They're doing the work.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

So yeah, they're moving through their grief.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

And it's like a protected space. I think that soon after our children's death, we start noticing that the rest of the world starts going on.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

You know, I remember having really profound moments of like looking around at different cars past me and thinking, you're just going about your day. You know, they were strangers, but it still felt so odd to me that the world was marching on. I remember New Year's Eve turning into New Year's Day and thinking, well, we can't have a new year. We can't, we can't move into a new year. Zach's not part of this year. How can we as how can anyone be moving into a new year? And so if these parents want to have time stand still in these rooms and have it be one space where they can control that time did literally get to stand still with the clothes and the treats and the paintings they just made in art class, we may look at it and think, that's been 10 years, and the pages are yellowing and the candy is certainly not edible. But for the parents, they got to have some control, which has been taken away when a tragedy happens, and they got to have some control to say, in this space, time is going to stand still. Because I think for me, my child will always be the age of his last breath.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

I've tried to imagine him older. I've tried to think of who he'd be. There's great country songs about who you would be now, but really he is exactly the moment that his last breath is. Breath occurred forever in my mind. Is that true for you with Kristen?

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Oh, yeah. She's forever 20. I don't and I've tried, but I can't I can't see it, the physical side of it or anything like that. And yeah, she's forever 20. I mean, that reminds me of one of the the stories in the documentary about where one of the families they'd said that um they haven't turned off the lights. That these string lights or LED lights or something. They haven't turned them off in their daughter's room um since the day she died. So since she left them on when she went to school and they've stayed on. And and it ties into what you were just saying. It's like time's gonna keep moving everywhere else.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

But not in that room.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Yeah. I talked to a dad one time, and I think you know him as well. And he said that for I mean, I think it'd been two years since his son had died, and every night he'd knock on the door and say, Good night, and his son's name.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

You know, after he'd passed away. It was like a routine, and he was gonna do that. He said, as long as they as long as he lived is what he had said, you know, that he was gonna knock on his his teen son's bedroom door, not invade his privacy because he's a teenager, but say, Love ya, and good night.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Yeah. There was a question in the film if the room is gone, does she go away?

Time Standing Still And Forever Ages

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Boy, isn't that our fear. The worst has happened, and now the fear is will our children be forgotten? Will we forget? And it fades. I mean, those those really vivid memories do fade. But, you know, we did move away from the home that Zach ever knew, and it was really devastating and also freeing because he not only lived there, he died there.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

So there was part of that that I couldn't get away from fast enough, but also to move into a new space that he was never physically part of. But really for me, a realization of he's with me. He's he's with everybody loved him. He's a he's a part of us and isn't confined by a physical space.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

There's not and we and we talk about this just in with grief in general, we've mentioned this before. There's not a right way and a wrong way. And so there's not a right decision or wrong decision when it comes to the room. That's right. The house. I mean, again, I know of parents that that are in the groups that I facilitate. There's a few that are they're struggling with what to with that very question that and the answer.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Do we move? There's not a right answer. Because every situation is different, all the circumstances and their lives. So it's just letting everybody know there's no wrong decision.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Yeah. And it it becomes a way of continuing our parenting of them to make these decisions. I feel like these decisions after after their death is the way I can continue to be his mom and make decisions that are right for my life and hopefully if I live a life that I can feel content in, then I can continue to honor him. But it's bizarre when your child dies, how many of your rights feel taken from you? You know, if it's if it's an unattended death, you don't have a right to say no to an autopsy. If it happened in a hospital, you don't have a right to the media not publishing it. And you're so stripped of all these rights often by laws and things that happen with public record, that to give parents back their agency and their empowerment to you do have a choice, what you decide to do with belongings and room and material items and burial and donations and and to take hold of that can feel I don't want to say empowering, that's too positive of a word, but it can feel like I don't feel so helpless or hopeless or something. I don't know. Does that any does any of that make any sense to you to you?

Agency After Loss And No Shoulds

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Yeah. Definitely. Uh I mean, I think agency is the right description. So, Kristen, tell our listeners why this film matters.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

I think it mattered because it was unusual and how it dealt with tragedy. Um, I don't know if it was a Steve Hartman piece, but I remember watching, you know, that concert in Las Vegas years ago where there was an active shooter, and I had to just get away from the news. And I went to the gym and was on a treadmill, and it was literally within a half hour there were messages on the the news about Las Vegas strong and we'll get through this, and this community can get through anything. And and I thought, why can't we just sit in this for a moment? Why can't we just say this shouldn't happen? These young people were at a concert, and this is horrible. This is really sad. But we had to make it how strong we all are. And I think as brief parents, we hear that a lot, you know. You're so strong. I could never do this. And now we're doing it in a community-wide way, you know. This community will get through this. This community will love on each other. This community is strong. Yes, that can all be true, but why do those have to be the resounding messages? Why can't we just sit in it and maybe have silence on the TV with just pictures of these precious children and just let us be sad? Like, what power could it be if children were sitting next to their parents watching them cry about other people's children's lives being lost and a child witnessing? It's safe to be sad. It's it's really a human emotion that my parents are going to let me explore. I mean, I think that's the importance of it. Didn't soften it. It didn't sugarcoat it. It just said, this is just as real as joy. We never avoid seeing all the joy of children on TV shows. You know, there's always those those uh images of what do they say, if you want to sell something, put a kid and a puppy on it. And we love having children's images, but now these children's faces and reality and how they live their lives, and we should get to know that. We should care. We should give the parents a space to honor these children because it's real. And I think you and I've said it before so much of child death is so so worst fear of anyone.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

No wonder we want to shy away from it. But that these brave journalists said, no, we're not going to. We're going to lean in and we're going to be curious and we're going to witness it, and then we're going to have a winning documentary. Goodness knows how that helped other people.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Yeah, if we can tune in. If we can just sit in the space and feel it instead of do a quick sugar coating or a silver lining and share that with each other, I think we'd be different.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

I think so too. And it didn't focus on the shooter. It wasn't a political film. It was tragedies happen. And, you know, I think at one point they say, I wish everyone could have a moment in one of these rooms.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

How could that change us?

SPEAKER_01 30:40

It changed me.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Me too. And I've stood in my own child's room.

unknown 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

And others, but that film was very impactful and beautifully done.

Let Grief Be Witnessed

SPEAKER_02 30:50

The thing about this film is it doesn't try to fix anything. It doesn't offer answers. It simply tells the truth. That's exactly right. If you've seen all the empty rooms, you probably felt it. And if you haven't, just know this is what grief looks like behind those closed doors. Those rooms aren't empty. They're full of love. So thanks for listening. If you carry anything from this conversation, let it be this. Love doesn't leave those rooms, it lives on in the memories, in the quiet moments, and in the spaces we return to. And in us. And if you're a parent holding a room like that, a space that still carries your child, you're not alone in this. And we see you. So until next time, take care of yourself. And please, don't forget to breathe.