A Little Help For Our Friends

Plastic Surgery: Navigating Self-Love, Societal Pressure, and Body Image

• Jacqueline Trumbull and Kibby McMahon • Season 5 • Episode 126

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Is plastic surgery a sign of self-improvement or a lack of self-love? In this episode, we reflect on this question after both of our (first?) major plastic surgery procedures: Kibby's double mastectomy for breast cancer treatment and Jacqueline’s decision to undergo liposuction. We question societal standards and the stigma surrounding body modifications, challenging the notion that altering one's appearance is inherently negative.

We address our evolution of body image as we age, where societal norms and personal perceptions often clash. Jacqueline opens up about her journey from being a reality TV star to and older woman as Kibby shares her major transitions from yoga teacher, to mom, to cancer patient. We reflect on the anxiety of maintaining attractiveness, the social capital tied to beauty, and the transformative periods of life, like pregnancy, that reshape self-identity. This conversation invites listeners to consider the profound impact of external pressures on our inner world.

With insights into the correlation between self-esteem and the desire for cosmetic changes, we discuss the often misunderstood belief that altering appearances can reshape personal relationships. Sharing stories of mixed family reactions, the discussion touches on the insecurities and newfound confidence after surgery. We consider the authentic paths toward self-love in a world fixated on physical ideals.

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Jacqueline Trumbull:

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, the podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. We share insights from science, clinical practice and our personal lives to help you support friends and family with mental or emotional problems. I'm your host, Jacqueline Trumbull, a former bachelor contestant turned clinical psychology PhD candidate at Duke University, and this is my co-host, Dr Kibbe McMahon.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Hi, I'm Dr Kibby, clinical psychologist and co-founder of Cool of Mine, the official community for this podcast. Check out our website Kulamind. com to get support navigating the ups and downs of your most emotionally challenging relationships.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

And if you want to share your story or questions with us for future episodes, tap the link in your show notes to text us or email us at littlehelpforourfriends at gmailcom.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

We hope you love the podcast. Hello little helpers Today I say this every time, I think, but today is another fun one we are going to be talking about plastic surgery, which might seem like a departure from what we normally do, but I think the topic of well, let me back up. I think a lot of people get plastic surgery in part because of body image issues, right, which is really central to mental health, and I remember in health class watching this video that was like warning us against any kind of plastic surgery, because it showed this woman with body dysmorphic disorder and she was just getting surgery after surgery, after surgery after surgery, and it was presented as like look, this will make your problems bigger, and I'm really excited to find out whether that's true. Like, from a research perspective, what do we know about plastic surgery? And the other thing that's exciting is that we've got two guinea pigs with you guys right now, because Kibbe and I both, at basically the same time, got plastic surgery. So, kibbe, I'll turn it over to you to begin.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Well, first I'll let people know about Cool of Mine. So, when you're listening to all of our tips and insights into relationship difficulties or mental health difficulties, we really wanted to help you guys apply our tips and these evidence-based strategies to your daily life to actually make changes. Because we got a lot of requests for that. Like, how do I actually get out of this abusive relationship, how do I heal from it? How do I stop dating the wrong people? How do I actually get self-esteem after having narcissistic parents?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

built Kulamind K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D. There's a platform that actually teaches you these strategies through one-on-one coaching resources and community support. So if you are curious about it, just go to coolmindcom, or it's the URL is in the link is in the show notes, and or if you just want to ask us about it, there's a place where you can actually click and say send Kibbe and jackman a text so you can actually text us directly about anything. Text us about your plastic surgery, because I'm so curious what this has been like for everyone else besides for us. So go ahead.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Plastic surgery well, you took the research brunt on this. Um, I'm, we are both like newly recovering from surgeries and I don't know. I think it's an interesting topic because, uh, I think that there's this attitude where it's like, if you get plastic surgery, you've given up on loving yourself, or something um you know, you had the unique experience of like you didn't just get a vanity surgery, you had breast cancer and so you got new boobs and that's like a super.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I don't think anybody's going to judge you for that. I got a vanity surgery, I got liposuction, um, and I don't know. It's an interesting question, like if you get, if you get liposuction, or if you get a nose job or something. Have you like given up on self-love? Have you taken a short? Have you decided like, actually you know what I can't love myself as I am, so I'm gonna do this surgery and therefore you never kind of solve your own problem, or is it something very different from that? I don't know. Do you have initial thoughts?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

My initial thought is that the first thing that comes to mind with plastic surgery is, um, the extreme versions like, uh, all the, all the celebrities who got huge boob jobs, or Michael Jackson right, like ones that are so extreme that and they look terrible, like I think that a lot of these actresses that do crazy things to their face, where they can't even move their face, is so obvious and terrible that I've always had a negative view of classic surgery. I was always like, oh, you're just chasing, you know, chasing a youth or a version of yourself, a standard and ideal that you'll never reach, and so you're constantly going to chase it and it's going to cost like thousands and thousands of dollars and put your life at risk because it's a surgery. So I was always like super negative about it until I got it. Now I'm all pro.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Oh yeah, I mean it's kind of exciting to go plastic surgery shopping, if you can afford it, and be like what can I change about myself now? How do I protect myself further?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I know you and I came from such different ends of the spectrum. I was always like natural, natural, natural, never, I'll never do plastic surgery. And you were always like, yeah, one day I'm going to do stuff to myself.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah for sure. I mean it's funny. When I was on the Bachelor, people made a lot of assumptions about me and I'll just talk right now about the flattering assumptions. Like some were nice, you know, she's smart and ambitious, and yada yada. Like somewhere nice, you know, she's smart and ambitious, and yada yada. But I think that a lot of virtue was attached to me for things. That really was just because I couldn't afford certain things. Yet I mean, yeah, a lot of girls in my season had plastic surgery and I was sort of proud of myself for not having it. But that's also because I felt like I didn't need to do anything to my face. I mean, I don't think they need to do anything to their faces either, but what do they do?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

What's like the most common on the Bachelor? What was the?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

boobs, a lot of boobs. And I had boobs right, so I wasn't going to get implants A lot of lip filler. That's not plastic surgery, but I think we should, you know, talk about like. Does that fall into the camp of like deserving a ton of judgment to? Stuff like that, what else? A lot of nose jobs. I think that was probably. I have no idea about liposuction. That might have. Might have existed, but mostly boobs, lips, noses. So crazy, even as you're talking about noses so crazy.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Even as you're talking about it, I'm like ugh. But I've gotten the most at this point.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, people would say, like she's so natural, she's such a natural beauty, it's so nice that she doesn't do these things to herself. It's like, yeah, well, just you wait till I age. I don't have any plans to age without a fight. So I mean, I'm just as vain as anybody else and I've hated my body for a very long time and I've subjected all sorts of people to constant commentary on it, as you know. I mean, you got this just yesterday and so did I give up on loving my body? Yes, I did, but I also don't know that it was a massive value of mine to get there.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So do you? I mean, this is up to you. Do you want to describe what? What you got Like, what kind of what kind of surgery you got?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I got lipo under my chin, which was a major insecurity area for like ever. I got it on my stomach, which was the other massive insecurity area for like ever. And I got it on my back, which I wasn't insecure about, but I didn't want fat to grow there and and and. The reason I did all of this to just to be clear was because I got an unlimited lipo for a super cheap price package so I could just keep adding shit. So the extent of my lipo isn't necessarily the extent of, like, my self-hatred or anything, but because I got very cheap lipo, because I got a fellow to do it, so that's a pro tip, yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And also you were thinking about. You got a Groupon for Kybella, which I'll put a plug against. Apparently, plastic surgeons are like do not do this, it doesn't work. Kybellas, you explain.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

You could explain what kybella is okay so kybella, I mean, I don't know a ton about it, uh, but basically it's uh injectables, that it's. It's really. It's mostly used for under the chin area, like double chin and um they, they dissolve the fat, um, ostensibly supposedly so.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Apparently plastic surgeons say that it is the worst plastic surgery procedure they've seen. Um it, it doesn't actually work. So you, like, are injecting the stuff under your chin. It's supposed to melt it away, but doesn't melt it away evenly, so sometimes you can get a lumpy chin and you like the bullfrog effect. You blow up for a while and then it goes back to like lumpy, so apparently it's really not worth it.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Um, so you got a little lipo underneath your chin, which I didn't know it was a thing until yeah, I didn't know I could afford it until this fellow came along and offered me like grad school prices apparently, yeah. So I mean that's the thing. Like I wonder if there'd be the same judgment associated with Kybella as there is with, like full on lipo, I don't know Cause one puts you under the knife but the other one actually has like a worse recovery. So you know, are we? Does the judgment come from?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Why can't people love themselves? Does it come from people are putting themselves at risk to just look prettier? Does it come from people are tricking us by not actually being as pretty as they appear to be naturally? But yeah, a lot of I was like the natural girl on the batch and I was totally natural at that point and I still primarily am. But I like I mean I have bionic eyes, my eggs are frozen, I mean I've. I will totally go under the knife to improve myself. I have no problem with that. I just also want to be able to recognize myself.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

How did it affect your self esteem, like, did it? Did it have the effects that you wanted? Were you? I mean, one of the things that I read in the research is patients expectations of the outcome, and having realistic expectation is one of the main things about what can affect your mental health, because people who think it's going to help them reach perfection or this like idealized view of themselves, that body dysmorphia they can never actually reach because, you know, their view of perfection is constantly like a carrot on a stick kind of thing. But so, with your expectations, do you feel like you had realistic ones? Like how do you feel now?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Okay. I think if I had spent 10 to $20,000 on this, I would feel a little bit differently than how I feel after spending $4,000 on this $4,000, which was also a bit of a crowdfunded effort People like my mom put in because she caused this mess in the first place. So you know I was willing to accept a lot of outcomes for that low of a price and something I never thought I'd be able to afford. I can genuinely say that I like my body. Now I like look forward to taking off my clothes and looking in the mirror and before I.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Basically what happened with me is I have never liked my body. I've always thought I had strange proportions. It was hard to find clothes that fit. The biggest problem was my fat distribution pattern. I gain weight in my face and my torso. I've got the apple distribution which just sucks. So anytime I gained any little bit of weight, you know I'd still have these like little spider legs and like no ass, but I would have a stomach.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

So, like jeans didn't fit, clothes didn't. I mean. It was just such a pain in the ass in so many ways and what happened was I gained 15 pounds over the last two years, which I think is due to my gained 15 pounds over the last two years, which I think is due to my antidepressant, but it also might be due to being 33. I don't know. But suddenly you know before where I couldn't change my fat distribution pattern, but I could like lose a couple pounds if I needed to, and I was always very low weight so I at least could always comfort myself like I'm in size, extra small you know, I'm only 115 pounds.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Now, suddenly my clothes weren't fitting and I didn't feel like I had any control over my weight. I could like eat 1500 calories a day and wouldn't lose anything. Um, you know, I was working out, wasn't losing anything and that made me fucking crazy and I was just like basically tearing up every time I look in the mirror or just freaking out or making comments or squeezing my fat, or, like you know, I was just upset. I mean, it was like bordering on dysmorphia. And I don't have that anymore and it's amazing it's been replaced by a bit of an obsession about not reversing the results and because I'm still on this medication and still 33, I don't know how much control I have over that. Um, but yeah, I mean, as I am right now I like my body and I have way more confidence. And I when pants don't fit me. It still freaks me out, but not as much I'm like'm like okay, I'll just go buy new pants.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Maybe this means my ass has gotten bigger, and I always wanted that.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So when you were. When you're obsessing about these things like you're, you know you're saying like, looking at your um stomach fat, did you like what? What are you worried about if you gain, gain weight or have a body that you don't want? What is the risk for you? Why does it mean so much?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

It's hard to describe. I mean, it's not like I think Jason won't love me anymore, but one of my fears was that I attracted him during a time when I was very thin and that I had led him to believe that I would always be like that because I had said things like that and I felt like I betrayed him by gaining weight. Of course, he did not endorse any of that. That's my own psycho shit, but, um, you know, I mean, I came from a family that like highly valued thinness and I think it felt like if I gained weight, I'd be like a second class citizen in certain ways. Um, I would be in your family or in the world.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

in the world Um yeah, dan and my I mean whatever my my family wasn't going to like lower my status or anything, but, um, yeah, I think one of the things that really got to me was like the bachelor. I mean, at first it gave me a lot of confidence because I didn't see myself as one of those girls. And then I was one of those girls and already liked me enough to like never break up with me, you know. So I was like, oh wow, I actually have a place among them. And then I started gaining weight and all of them stayed like microscopic and had were so toned and perfect looking and like. There's two pictures of me in a bikini on Instagram and I'm hiding my stomach in both of them.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

So you know, I never saw myself as having that body type. That was ideal and, um, and it was unattainable. I mean, I, I had like no fat amount, but all of it was on my stomach, and so I just didn't like how I looked ever and I guess, as I was gaining weight especially where I gain it I was just like I no longer look like a bachelor girl. I know I no longer look like one of these women and, um, I don't know, and that was just. That was hard.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Uh, and you know, like in New York, I mean I used to be approached all the time. People would approach me on the subway, ask me out, talk about how beautiful I was, yada, yada, yada, and that stopped. And I don't know if it's because I'm older or fatter or because people don't do that anymore. I would just notice things like that right, I'd be like is it my weight, is it my age? Like what's going on? Why aren't I wanted in the same ways? I mean, I got a lot of social capital from being thin and pretty a lot of free dinners, a lot of free drinks, a lot of free Broadway shows, like a lot of free vacations. I mean a lot came out of it. I'm very reluctant to lose that power.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, yeah, it definitely sets. It definitely sets your identity. In many ways People orient differently to women who are pretty versus not, which is so sad.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

But I've always been on the other side where I just like didn't have access to that identity and didn't even build up that kind of part of my body image Like there's there I valued I mean, we talk about this a lot, but I value like my academic abilities and like other parts of my personality over my body and it wasn't until college where I was dating people who actually liked like fuller figure women, um, but these past few years have been weird for me because I got pregnant, had a baby and was like very overweight and my body changed a lot, like it really, you know, from aesthetic, like cosmetic aesthetic, you know I definitely changed. Like I had that belly fat that I realized that everyone gets when they have a baby not everyone, but like most people get when they're I'm sorry, like the like the lower belly, your fupa, definitely gets a little, you know, gets a little fat after you have a baby. And then my hips kind of still stayed wide and then my boobs changed a lot throughout pregnancy and breastfeeding and then after, like I had like these perky C cups and then it was like they were like pretty heavy and, you know, droopy afterwards. But so I already went through like a body identity change where I was really like, oh my god, am I just? This is what I am now. I'm like this middle aged woman. And then I got cancer and I mean it was all of that time was just a solid time where my body didn't feel like in mind, control, like and I. It was hard to ever feel any kind of like self esteem in my physicality and sexuality, like I. I knew I had to probably go on, you know, build up social media presence earlier and stuff like, but I was just so insecure like hair was falling out, I got skinny in a weird way right, so like my body and my boobs went through so much transformation that I've lost any attachment to what. I barely remember what I used to look like.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, but then the plastic surgery was hugely beneficial to me, like I was so against it before and then you know, now, now I'm like, oh yeah, great, because I went from I. I actually had this emotional reaction. I had one interview or consultation with a surgeon who was just like, okay, yeah, so what kind of surgery do you want? You could get like a lumpectomy or just cut it out and keep your natural boobs. We could get mastectomy, where you could take one breast out and like replace it fully with an implant, or double mastectomy, which is like you take both of them out and and just only have implants Right, um and to be left with that choice, like, do I want to keep my boobs? I was, I was terrified and then they said yeah, if you want to double mastectomy and just get implants, we're going to have to remove your nipples entirely.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And I didn't even know that was an option. I was like, oh, there's no. But I thought there's no cancer in the nipples. They're like, yeah, but it'll be in the wrong place because your boobs are so droopy that your nipples would be below the implant. And so the picture of me just losing my breasts and losing my nipples, I was just, I was overwhelmed. I just didn't know how to make that decision.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And all these different decisions have implications for, like, how likely is cancer going to come back? And if I wanted to keep my boobs, I could keep them if I was really hoping to breastfeed again, right. So it was just like these long term choices that I just like panicked and ran away from that consultation. And luckily I had a what's called a breasty, like a friend who's had breast cancer, and she really encouraged me to do all their consultations with other plastic surgeons, because plastic surgery, even in this kind of cancer context, is really personal and I didn't know that. So I found a plastic surgeon who was a woman, who really made a difference to have a woman plastic surgeon, and she just like asked me what I want for my boobs and like respected that and um, found a cool way to actually keep my nipples. Um, by doing this other, different procedure, and it just basically made the shape of boobs that I wanted and gave me the implants that I wanted.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And at first I was. I was wanted, and at first I was. I was just like in the hole of survival. I was just like, okay, oh, what's the lowest risk of recurrence? So I'd like what's the safest? Okay, I'll just do double mastectomy. But now I was like, oh my God, for the first time in years, I'm able to actually have control over the way I look in my body.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I hadn't in so long. So I was like, oh, I could finally feel like an attractive person again. Um, and yeah, I mean, you know, here are my new fake boobs and I'm really.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I love them because it's like, first of all, it makes me feel safe and second of all, kibbe is lifting up her shirt and showing you her naked breasts on YouTube.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So now go to YouTube and see some boob shots. I'm just kidding. Return it back to normalcy. Yeah, I definitely feel like a lot more confident in myself and like what happened was I got.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I had three different surgeries. First one was to remove the cancer and to lift the boobs up and put the nipples in the right place, which is crazy. It was like origami with my boobs. The second was to the mastectomy removal of all the tissues. I was flat chested, I was like you, small a cup, and then they, in that step they put balloons these called things, called expanders in my breast and every week they fill it up with water. So I literally had water balloons, like inflating my breasts, until I was like, okay, that's good, I like the size. And then she switched it out for implants. So that's like the, the crazy. That was my summer right Like I've had. We counted like 10 different boobs since I started dating my husband. So he's seen 10 different sets of tits.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

It is crazy. It's crazy because it's the thing that you identify with right, like for women. They're, as you were saying, like the physical part, like your physical body, and attractiveness is a lot, informs a lot of your identity sometimes. And what kind of boobs you have. You know, like, makes a difference sometimes. So I did read the research that people who've had especially um, boob jobs and especially breast reductions, are the happiest with their outcomes. Because, yeah, yeah, that's like one of the most like I mean always patient preparation expectations makes a difference in how you feel about the outcome. That's like the number one thing that predicts how happy you are with the results. If you're thinking that you're going to be like a perfect Barbie, whatever, then you're going to be unhappy, right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Even though I'm happy with my boobs, it's still there's still scars, there's still like weird, like there's rippling, like when I look at myself in the mirror and I move, you could see kind of like the ripple of the implant underneath the skin. So it doesn't look like a boob sometimes, yeah, um, so there is a little bit of like oh, like like a uh, foreignness to it. But if you have realistic expectations, um, you could be happy, especially if you're breast reduction. So, actually, another thing I also got lipo. I got fat sucked out of my stomach and put into my boob to make that like normal looking. So it doesn't look like a bubble, right, so it just looks like a boo. So I got the works and I am into it.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean I would think that was not results, but like happiness would depend also a lot on the surgery that you get, because lipo is somewhat reversible. I mean, they, the fat cells, can't grow back, but if there's fat remaining then that can explode, and so you know, so I feel some paranoia about gaining that weight back. And since it's about fat like fat grows or like you gain it or you lose it, like it's always in flux, so that's something that there's, I think, a desire to control. There are other procedures, like a nose job, for instance, where it's just changed and you don't have to think about it after that. You know, and I mean I've gotten like moles removed and I, you know, like dumb, like some other procedures. You know where I did it was like an insecurity of mine has been deleted and I never have to think about it again and that was great, like no complaints.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Um, and you know, breast implants are, are somewhat like that. I mean, there's fat involved, but nobody usually doesn't mind if their boobs get like a little bit bigger, unless you're starting with, like you know, titanic, titanic twins. But I think the fat removal ones are interesting, because is there an ideal that you're trying to get to. Can you ever reach that ideal? Do you have to be constantly concerned about then gaining weight? It just it feels like a different ballgame. Are you experiencing that at all with the, with the lipo portion of what you got?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, I mean I, I that part was probably the most unrealistic expectation, Cause I was like, oh my God, I. Just when I unlocked the possibility that I could get plastic surgery, it was like, oh, I could have this, like control over myself. It's covered by insurance, so I have that luck. But, um, or a lack of luck, if you want to look at it that way. But I was like, oh my god, I could come out with these perky new boobs and then no fat on my tummy. Yeah and the. So everyone knows, if you get liposuction it's just like sucking out the fat. It's not that invasive, but you can't take too much out or your skin will sag right, it will start to look like, um, like austin powers. What was that? A fat bastard. When he got, when he got skinny and all the skin was loose I don't, I've never seen lost hours.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I know that's crazy right and I was the normal age to see it. I just never, oh my God.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Well, that's okay, you got to see that that's homework assignment number one. But if a tummy tuck is like removing the fat and then they cut off the skin a little bit, right, so when you have a tuck, you basically have like fat and skin removed and that's a really invasive procedure. Um, so I didn't have that. I just they took out a little and put it on my boobs and I was. I was like there's some fantasies of coming out like this perfect body and I'm like, oh okay, like I look a little bit more tone, like a little more myself pre-baby, but like I'm not like super skinny and yeah, like the holidays rolled around and I definitely packed on them back, and it also is a little ripply like where you get, where I got lipo, at least it's still a little bit like. There's like it's like a different shape, right, there's little lumps and they're like the skin kind of folds in a different way, not horribly, not in a way that I would really care about.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

But if you're expected to come out looking like, you know, perfect Barbie, then you know, I mean I was able to get more taken because I have not been pregnant previously, so my skin was not stretched the way yours was. Yeah, so Kibbe basically could only get some taken out because she had pregnancy, so her skin was already naturally stretched and so if you take more out, then it's going to stretch more. I have my perfect pre-body body, or pre-baby body, and so I was able to take a lot more, and I think I, mine, changed my body type. Like I have an hourglass figure now, which I never had before. I was like an inverted triangle before. It drove me fucking crazy. Yeah, I mean, I feel loads better.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I don't have the thought I hate my body. I hate my body. Why am I so fat? Why do I look like this? Why do I look like this? Don't look in the mirror, look, look in the mirror. They'll see whether it's really that bad. Oh, it's not that bad today. Oh wait, but in this lighting it is that bad. Oh, oh, my god, now there's cellulite. What am I gonna do now? I'm trying on my old clothes and they don't fit and I, like you, can see it through. I can see the stomach fat through the fabric and all this shit and now I'm like buying sweater dresses and I'm, you know, I'm I'm able to have more of a snatch waist and it's, it's great. It's also temporary because I do want babies. So we'll, you know, we'll see about how things go there. But I think there's this question of like should we attempt to love our natural bodies and not try to surgically alter them? Is that the better mental health route? Do you have initial thoughts on that?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Always, because I think that people with body dysmorphia and obsessive problems with body image from the research aren't that happy with the result when they're trying to. Especially, body dysmorphia is like this you're obsessed over a minor defect, like you think your nose is too big and you're just like obsessed over this one piece. Well, getting that surgery might lead you to the michael jackson situation where you're constantly like, trying to redo it and redo it. And not only is like is that? But if you have identity issues attached to a personality disorder, those are the people who are the most upset with the outcomes, especially with rhinoplasty with nose jobs yeah, isn't that cool, because they're trying to seek identity and trying to figure that out. And then you get a nose job and then your whole face changes, right, the structure of it changes. So those are the patients who tend to try to get reversal surgeries to try to like capture the sense of self or image that they're, that they, you know, identify with.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, that's why. So, like I got fat taken out from under my chin. But even your doctor at first was like I don't think she needs that. I think she needs chin implants or not chin implant or like filler or something.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

And I rejected that because I don't want my face to change. Like it's the same thing with lip filler, like I have thinner lips and sometimes I'm like God, I hate how they look when I talk, but I don't really want to look different. I would do shit to my face if it reversed aging and made me look more like how I've always looked, cause that aging freaks me out. For a similar reason, I don't want my face to look like a different person's face. Um, but I just there's.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, okay, look, if you have just body dysmorphia, then doing plastic surgery is really risky, because you risk getting more and more of it and never being happy with it and because the problem isn't necessarily your body part, it's a, it's a cognitive, it's a psychological process that's going on. And so if you continually try to fix the body part, then what happens to the psychological process? Well, it doesn't necessarily go away. Now, if you have like an obviously flawed I'm putting that in quotes body part, and it really is like I just fucking hate my nose. And I hate it because other people react to me in a particular way. I've lost dates because like there are consequences and you get that nose changed, then problem solved. But if it's more like I just can't accept myself for who I am, I have this obsession with myself and my image that won't go away and nothing I can do, then it's a bigger problem.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Um, yeah, I think. I think if you're thinking, noticing it in yourself, noticing if you're the kind of person who chases perfection or an ideal and never feel satisfied with it right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

It's one thing. If you're like I like things this way and when I achieve that goal I'm satisfied, of course you might have new goals. But there's some people's brains with the kind of OCD flair who's just like I'm uncomfortable and I'm in distress until I get this ideal. Oh, I got the ideal. It was satisfying for two seconds and then now it's uncomfortable again, right, like the kind of hamster wheel of discomfort.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Then plastic surgery it's going to be addictive and deceptive because it's this feeling that you have like a lot of control, right, and they sell you on it, right, they're like you could change the way you look entirely. So you're like, wow, this identity piece that I have just kind of subjected myself to, I can actually have full control. And then when you do try to control it full control and then when you do try to control it, that, as you said, the psychological process doesn't stop. So, um, yeah, it's basically giving you the keys. It's like if you have someone with um, like a dirt phobia, and you give them like lysol spray, yeah, you have like this thing that gives them like a sense of like, oh, I finally got the answer. And then it's not the answer.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

It's actually both outside and in, you know well, right, because the dirt isn't actually the problem for somebody with a dirt phobia. It's a need to control anxiety, and that's different. And for whatever reason, it's glommed on to dirt as being the target, but dirt is more of like a representation or a symbol or something of this, like this attempt to to control anxiety. Um, and I think it can be hard to tell. Like, I don't think I fit neatly into either camp, you know. I mean I, most people would look at my prior self and be like you're beautiful. What the fuck are you talking about? Like, why can't you love your body? Um fuck are you talking about? Like, why can't you love your body?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Um, you know me, getting lipo is not going to change my romantic partner. I'm not going to like go out and get some. I'm not going to go out and like marry Brad Pitt or anything Like. I'm sticking with Jason. He loved me before, he loves me after. Um, but, but I don't necessarily feel I do feel less obsessed.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

No, um, I think eating is still going to be an issue for me, because I'm going to want to maintain thin, I'm going to want to maintain the results, and so now it's about maintenance rather than change.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I don't want to change how I look, I want to maintain how I look, and that is pretty much just as oppressive when it comes to eating. But it you know this question of just like okay, like, let's say, you don't have body dysmorphia, you don't have BPD, you don't have identity issues, but you are really bothered by some way that you look like aging, you know, like is it bad to get Botox, to dye your hair, to get filler, to do all this shit? And it's a hard question to answer, because it reminds me a little bit of when people don't want to use Google Maps because they want to maintain their sense of direction, kind of like you're right, it would be amazing to have a sense of direction, but Google Maps is right there. So do you actually need to have a sense of direction, but google maps is right there? So do you actually need to have that skill?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

You know, do I need to love my fat distribution pattern if I can just get it changed? Like, is it worth putting the effort into loving that when I could put my energy elsewhere and easily get this fit like, get this change yeah, I mean, it all goes back to expectations, Um, and why are you doing it?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So I think the like the question is why do you want the plastic surgery? Like, what did? What do you think? What do you imagine it could do for you or give you?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Um, it's interesting because there there was some research showing that people in problematic relationships tend to want cosmetic procedures, right? So people who the predictors of interest in cosmetic surgery are being single, having bad relationships with parents and multiple sexual partners all increase your chance of wanting a plastic surgery and that, if you are going to, yeah, it makes sense, right. And it's also like low self-esteem and how do you relate to people, how they, how attractive they find you, how do they see you? But people who think that they're going to change their relationships through plastic surgery like, apparently, hopes to improve their family status or personal relationship quality are the most are also very unhappy with the results. Because, yeah, you can change the way you look, but there's so much more to a relationship than just like physically how you look Right, there's just like your self-esteem, there's like all other stuff, that if you if just getting skinny change all that, then it would be realistic, but it doesn't.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

So Fun, fun story on that. I've talked extensively about how my mom and sister have commented on my weight and it's been an issue or whatever. My sister's actually probably the worst one. My mom, you know, atoned and apologized and all of that. Uh, but I was trying on, my sister bought over a bunch of clothes and she's smaller than me and I could fit into some of them and it was very exciting and I I have more of an hourglass figure now. So like, and I you know, and I have gained weight, and lipo actually doesn't change your weight that much, which is a fun fact. It's also somewhat of a mystery because you do remove fat and fat does weigh something, but the scale doesn't change all that much. So it's very bizarre.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Anyway, you do swell. You get a lot of fluid retention so it takes months to heal from it. Yeah, yeah, get a lot of fluid retention.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

So just, it takes months to heal from it. Just yeah, yeah, um. Anyways, I tried on some dress and I was like, oh my god, I kind of have an ass in this, like I'm hoping that's where all my fat goes from now on. And she goes. No, that's big enough. So it's just like I mean it. It just shows how shifting it can be right if, if somebody wants to, you know, degrade you for having a boyfriend, they'll just find something new.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

So yeah, I mean it's probably not going to massively change relationships, unless it massively changes your confidence and self-esteem. I would think that would have an effect on your relationships.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Do you think people your family or otherwise react to you differently after you've got some lipo?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I think my brothers thought I was crazy. My mother is excited Really. Oh yeah, I don't think my dad was ever. I mean, what did she say?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Was she like good job?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

You look adorable. You know that kind of thing.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Uh-huh.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Wow, yeah, I mean that's nice nice.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, she wasn't a bitch about it at all, um but I think it definitely would cement some core belief if suddenly your family were like ah, now you're worthy again.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Or you know, other people on the street were like I mean I, I experienced actually a lot of I feel like capital in my family I don't really know what the right word is Like I'm probably the kid who's closest to my mom right now. Um, I so yeah, I mean, so I don't actually feel like I have a downgraded position in my family depending on weight or anything. It's just like do I want to catch comments or not? So I mean, you know, whatever it's, I feel more comfortable going home now, that's for sure, especially if it's, you know, if there's a beach weekend involved. But I do think my self-esteem is higher now and I just have more space in my head because I was just saying, but I do think my self-esteem is higher now and I just have more space in my head because I was just so the amount of times that I would like you would just catch me like grabbing my stomach fat, just like holding it and like squeezing it and feeling for granules and all this shit.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean it was like kind of insane. I spent a lot of energy worrying about how I looked and I do that less. It's not gone. Yesterday I had a freak out because I binge ate and then the next day tried on pants and I still couldn't fit into them and I was like what the fuck? I'm gaining it all back and then texted you obsessively but it is really nice to like, like what my body looks like. That's definitely different. And, yeah, and I think the expectation that people figure out how to love themselves is a little bit cruel and there's a lot of just like, a kind of unrealistic when we live in a society that, like heavily rewards people for looking a particular way, and when you say to women who don't look that way hey, you should just love yourself. Instead, you shouldn't get surgery Like you shouldn't get what's available to change you and get all this social reward, you should just love yourself. It's kind of like, yeah, well, fuck you. Like, how am I supposed to just do?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

that I do. I do see the value in the loving yourself, no matter what you look like.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I do see the value in the loving yourself, no matter what you look like, because and that was hard I didn't feel that yeah, the value is that I think what carries more is the confidence right, like you could see, someone who's not like picture perfect but carries himself thinking that they're attractive and thinking that they're worthy, and that could do a lot more than a really physically pretty person with low self-esteem doesn't carry themselves well right, because actually, like I mean, we're talking about plastic surgery but there's all sorts of stuff. At this point you can just put filters on everything, right, and then you could get your hair done. You can make it like there's a lot of transformation to your looks that you can do non-surgically. I don't even know Botox and all that stuff that's tattooing eyebrows, eyelashes, right. There's so many modifications you could do to your physical form. And what carries a lot more is how you see yourself, your confidence in yourself.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So, if the actual plastic surgery doesn't make a difference, then it's not gonna make a difference.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I think there's, of course, value in loving yourself. I mean, that's the ideal, that is what we want. And to you know, point taken, that like, actually attractiveness does come a lot more from self, from confidence and from physical features. I just think it's a, it's a tall ask to tell women or men, like why would you get plastic surgery? That's ridiculous. Like you're just love yourself instead. Like well, just accept yourself as you are. Cause, yeah, like I wish I could do that and maybe if I tried harder, I could. I've been trying pretty hard for a pretty long fucking time, trying pretty hard for a pretty long fucking time. And meanwhile I'm living in an ecosystem where women are punished for not looking perfect, and so are men. You know, I mean, I'm just a woman getting surgery, so people are punished for not looking a certain way and they're really, really rewarded for looking a certain way. And you know, like my peer group in particular is pretty fucking intimidating when it comes to that. It's like a bunch of bachelor girls. You know it's, and it's just it's hard when it's like okay, I and that's not like I hate myself, you know, I have pretty high self-esteem.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

In most ways there are some notable exceptions. In most ways. There are some notable exceptions, but this was a notable exception and, um, I don't know was it. Would it be worth it to just put in more effort trying to like think myself into knots, trying to decide that the thing that I was seeing with my eyes was actually attractive to me, when I didn't think that it was? I don't know at what point it's legitimate to make the decision to just do something else. I do think it's interesting that there's way less judgment for certain sort of body modifications than there are for others, and I think invasiveness is something that makes sense. You know, like Botox is you're not going to die under anesthesia for getting Botox.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, and now we are in the land of Ozempic, right. So that's not even a surgery, that's a medication. But that is, like you know, the thinking about the difference in how we view Ozempic versus liposuction, right Like yeah, that's a good point, those are two medical interventions that do the same thing.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I just I, I'm thinking that when we're talking about this, it all feels like an issue of control, right? How much control do you need over your identity and physical looks? What does control mean to you? Do you have the means to control without and being adaptable? For example, like, if I thought, oh, I can get the body type I want, I just need to do this, these diets and exercise and whatever, and do things that I know I can do, then that would feel different than like the only way I can get to this body type is if I have these intensive, expensive surgeries, risky surgeries, and I can't do that, right?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So if something feels like out of your control, versus your control, and then what are your expectations for that finished outcome? Like, are you expecting it to change your life? Are you expecting to become like a perfect version of yourself? Like, or is it like, oh yeah, actually like for me, having boobs that look like what I used to pre baby, and like I'm a little bit more perfectionistic when it comes to the way I feel in my body, like I have very particular ways of like my shoulders and my back and my like the way things move. So this feels a lot more like what I used to feel way things move. So this feels a lot more like what I used to feel, you know, and that makes me feel good, that makes me feel more quote myself so I don't know.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

No, I think it's if I had a patient and we were talking about acceptance. It's like when do you accept? Well, often that's when you can't control, like you can't change something, then you have to accept it because you're really out of options at that point. But here we're talking about something that you actually can change. And so when do you just say I accept myself as I am versus when do you say, no, actually I'm just going to pay a little bit of money and then I can be different, and then I can. I don't have to do this whole like work of acceptance.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, and I think another you know, interesting point with like Ozempic is yeah, I mean people say like diet and exercise, just diet and exercise, as if willpower. There's so much like. If somebody loses weight through diet and exercise, it's like wow, you have willpower, you have discipline, all of these things. It's incredible. It's like well, first of all, there are all sorts of things that go into whether you can gain or lose weight. You know, I eat like pretty fucking well and I work out and I wasn't losing weight and I also was. You can't target weight loss, and so lipo is really a contouring thing, um, but it's like okay, but even in that situation where you diet and exercise, you're not just accepting your body as it is, you're changing your body. And so then, what does self-love really mean?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Like does love yourself less because you go under a knife, versus you change your diet completely, I don't know. And the other thing, no-transcript problem where the food that's good for us is less available. And so yeah, like. What do you expect people to do in the face of that?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And so yeah, like what do you expect people to do in the face of that? I think, then, we lean to dialectical behavior therapy, with dialectics where it's like the and situation. It's not like you have to accept yourself or change right. You can accept yourself and change. Ideally, you love yourself and your body and for who you are and feel good when you, you know, lose some weight or change the way you look. You know so ideally, but ideally you have a foundation of self-acceptance, self-love, with, on top of it, being like well, if I change this about my behavior, if I change this about my behavior, I changed this about my appearance, my whatever like have changes above that. That adds to the value and not like is the sole, is a sole source of how you feel about yourself.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, yeah, it seems a little bit utopian to just be like, oh, just accept everything about yourself and like we shave our legs. I mean, there's just certain things. We're very used to not accepting certain things about ourselves on like a daily basis and, um, but yeah, I think you can love yourself and get plastic surgery. Um, you can generally love the way you look and be like you know what. I'd be a little bit happier if this were tweaked.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

One thing, though, that is important to me is, like part of the reason I want to do this podcast is I am a bachelor girl and I don't want to just give people the impression that it's easy to look a particular way, like there is a lot of luck involved, there's a lot of money involved, diet and exercise don't always like perfectly work, and sometimes it's not worth it to spend your entire life exercising. So you know, I I just I guess I want people to understand that there are a lot of ways to beauty, and if you don't naturally look a particular way, then that doesn't necessarily mean that you look that different than people who seem beautiful, because maybe they've done stuff.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, and I, you know you would think that me going through cancer, I'd be like, oh, you know, I just love my body for what it is.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I have more self-acceptance for life, and I do.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

But now I also am more into the plastic surgery and appearance Cause I was like I've had so many years of feeling like out of my body and at war with my body and I really miss. I think apparently this is like body image issues is a big thing for younger women who have cancer or breast cancer, because they're like I want to feel like a 30, 39 year old woman who's like, sexy and in a new relationship and like, yeah, I have a kid, but like I don't want to feel like a 30, 39 year old woman who's like, sexy and in a new relationship and like, yeah, I have a kid, but like I don't want to give up on feeling like I'm like an attractive woman, right, I don't want to just like, let my body go both like health wise and sexuality. So, yeah, like I'm. I'm now excited that I got you know that I came out of this looking better than I thought before and it actually does make a difference in my self-esteem. You know I'm not ashamed about that, that's awesome.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Are you thinking about getting more stuff? Yeah?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

yeah, yeah, I don't know. I'm gonna try to you know different, like not nothing major, but I always I never wanted to get. I always thought like would I get a nose job or live for whatever? And I was like no, because I look like my dad, like I have my dad's nose and I want to keep that from him. You know, I want to keep that part of my dad. But, yeah, I'm going to look into things. You know, I don't. I don't know about Botox, because my facial expressions are really important to me and our work, but I don't know something to tighten up the face. I don't. I'm learning about all sorts of weird stuff out there that we could cover in future podcasts, but like you could take your blood, spin it in a centrifuge, put the good blood blackened back into your face and boobs and that magically does things. I don't know, man, but it is a wide, open world of chasing perfection for me after this.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So I could document the before and afters with this podcast, so stay tuned. I do also want to say that they were also there's a lot of health risks with this stuff, so it's not stuff to play around, especially with young kids like young kids. So it's not stuff to play around, especially with young kids. Like young kids with surgeries. It's really high risk for your health. One if you get liposuction around your tummy, apparently you can still get fat around your organs, so you will have this weird barrel. Look if you keep getting liposuction because fat still grows inside you. Two breast implants, especially crappy versions, and this like rippled kind of implant, was linked to cancer, to other kinds of cancers. So really do your research about the health risk, because if you get cancer, that's you know you're not gonna be hot, no matter what.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

So you know, a cheerful message.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

The end so okay, but the overall is that most people are happy once they get plastic like with psychosocial outcomes and plastic surgery are positive, granted what people go in for to get getting them for and what their expectations are. So I said expectations low. Really, do your research, make sure the risk makes sense and you know then go forward, cut them up.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, I'm definitely happy that I've gotten the things done to myself that I have. I couldn't be more pleased, really.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So, um, so get plastic surgery, except for Kybella.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Except for Kybella's back.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

That's our conclusion to this episode, kybella's back.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Um well, listen, I mean, if you think we're perfect the way we are, um, then just let us know that you know. Give us five star rating on Apple podcasts and Spotify and we'll keep trying to attain perfection, week after week, for the rest of our time with you, and we'll see you next week by accessing this podcast, I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in. Thank you. Available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment, and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified health care provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call 9-1-1. The hosts do not endorse, approve, recommend or certify any information, product, process, service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. You