A Little Help For Our Friends

Interview with Dr. Marina Rosenthal: Unlocking the Secrets of Sexual Health and Intimacy through Sex Therapy

• Jacqueline Trumbull and Kibby McMahon • Season 5 • Episode 127

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Sex shouldn't feel like a chore...unless that's something you're into! In this episode, we welcome back Dr. Marina Rosenthal to talk about sex therapy. Dr. Rosenthal discusses how sex therapy addresses various issues, from erectile dysfunction and pain during sex to navigating non-monogamy and infidelity repair. This approach advocates for expanded definitions of sex to foster fulfilling relationships at every age.

We discuss how cultural expectations can create pressure, affecting self-worth and leading to feelings of rejection. By shifting the focus from the frequency of sex to the enjoyment of diverse intimate activities, couples can create a more satisfying and stress-free sexual relationship. Dr. Rosenthal mentions a few examples of how sex therapy techniques are introduced to reduce performance anxiety, encouraging present-moment awareness and enhancing the sexual experience for both partners.

As we are wont to do on this podcast, we dive into the rich tapestry of sexual fantasies and their role in relationships, as we discuss cognitive restructuring techniques and the importance of communication between partners. From the complexities of taboo fantasies to the nuances of pornography use, we cover tips for navigating these sensitive topics. We also touch on the impact of trauma on sexual relationships and the pathways to healing.

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Jacqueline Trumbull:

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Welcome back, little helpers. Oh, my god, are we excited for this topic and that is now the third week in a row I've said that, but for real this time, because we're going to be talking about sex. We love talking about sex and Kibbe and I kind of like delve into this topic a little bit, like we wade into it. But today we have clinical psychologist, high-conflict couples therapist and ASEC-certified sex therapist, dr Marina Rosenthal. She was here a few weeks ago. You loved her. I got many messages about how great that episode was. So welcome back, marina, and thanks for talking to us about sex today. I'm so excited. This is your favorite topic.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

I would say so. Yeah, it's my favorite topic and um I I just really love reminding everybody that sex is a part of life. Sexuality is a part of life and like let's, let's make sure we actually talk about it.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

And like let's, let's make sure we actually talk about it. So what do you? Everything I know about sex therapy comes it's not even sex therapy, it's just Esther Burrell. So like this fundamentally different thing from talk therapy, like what exactly differentiates it?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah, that's such a good question. So sex therapy that was that was the question I had when I started sex therapy. Training and supervision actually was like what are? So sex therapy? That was the question I had when I started sex therapy. Training and supervision actually was like what are the magic sex therapy interventions that I can learn and deliver? And there definitely are some.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

For the most part, sex therapy is more about a way of thinking about sexuality, and then there's interventions that go along with that. There's certainly education about physiology and sexual response and kind of like the facts of anatomy and how sex works, how desire works. That is part of being a sex therapist or receiving sex therapy. But I think, more importantly, when you work with a sex therapist, what you're hopefully getting is somebody who is willing to look at sex from a lot of different angles, who sees sex as important as part of you know, like human's identity.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Whatever your relationship to sex is that it matters that you deserve pleasure, that pleasure is an important part of life, kind of like a human right if it's something that you want. There's a way of thinking about sex. That, I would say, is the overarching thing that makes sex therapy different from regular therapy. And sex therapy certainly could be very much like talk therapy. It's often somewhat behavioral, with some exercises to try some things to actually apply into your sex life, but sometimes it's very similar to trauma therapy or sometimes it's very similar to other forms of therapy. So it can kind of look at a lot of different ways and it's more of a philosophical frame that the therapist comes in with.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

That's awesome. What are the typical problems that people come to you for what is like the most common issue that people are asking help with?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah Well, so issues that would fall under sex therapy, kind of just starting there, like broadly, there's sexual function issues that sex therapists can help with. So that's things like erectile dysfunction or premature ejaculation, pain during sex of any kind. Those are all things that you know you can certainly go to a medical provider for, but you can also receive support from a sex therapist, particularly after you've seen a medical provider who's kind of ruled out that there's something else going on or wants to coordinate care In particular, like pelvic floor. Physical therapists are really great to pair up with your sex therapist if you're having pain during sex, for example. So function issues, like things are not going the way I want them to, my body is not quote-unquote performing the way I want it to.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Now, part of sex therapy is often reframing the way we think about sexual performance and having more flexible and expansive options available for what sex can be and what pleasure can look like. So that might be part of it as well. I would say the most common sex therapy concern that I get as a couples therapist is infidelity repair, but other common ones include desire discrepancies, where one partner has a much or not even much a different desire for amount of sex or type of sex and the couple wants to work through that Increasingly working with folks around non-monogamy and how they structure their relationships, whether one person uses pornography and the other person is uncomfortable with that, and how they're navigating that in their relationship kink, all kinds of things.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Really it's very expansive I'm like I'm trying to think of where to go next because I'm sort of buzzing with all sorts of things. I mean, I guess one thing I'm wondering about is how much of what you see is a just like it's actually a problem they're having in the bedroom versus what they think might be a problem. Um, so like my genitalia isn't normal or my performance isn't normal, or like when you were saying expanding flexibility around what sex can mean, I would think a lot of people would balk at that, in part because there's this belief like if we're not having penis and vagina sex, then there's something wrong with our relationship, something wrong with our sex life. That's not real sex. So just a lot of kind of societal beliefs coming in.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah, I mean that's, I would say, in many ways across presenting issue, the most common sex therapy intervention is kind of like normalizing that sex can mean a lot of different things and helping people see their own sex lives more expansively, and that's a data driven approach, the you know, the research shows that couples who continue to have sex later in their relationships, like as they get older, have more expansive sex, and this makes total sense, right? Nobody continues to again, quote unquote perform exactly the same way decades at a time. Illness, pregnancies, menopause all kinds of things can change the way your body behaves, and so having a flexible way to approach intimacy is so, so helpful. Something I'll often say to couples who are getting really stuck on this is like, okay, like so let's say that it's all or nothing, right, you can have your penis and vagina sex Again, that's assuming a heterosexual couple, but you can have that or nothing. That's one option. Or you could have that, or you could have 25 other things.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Maybe the answer for your partner is no on the penis and vagina sex one night. Is it really for you Then? I want nothing. Is that a better option than let's cuddle naked or let's make out and build tension for tomorrow night, when I think I'm going to be more available. You know really anything. That could be a very wide menu of sexual options, and the more options a couple has, the more likely they are to actually tap into those options and be sexual with each other.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So interesting. What do you think people's most common misconceptions are? Because, like I, like that you're talking about the different options. Are there certain ways that people come in thinking sex is or get?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

wrong. People are often really worried about sexual compatibility in terms of whether you and your partner match up with how much sex you want and the type of sex you want. And definitely life is a little simpler if you and your partner are just like a perfect Venn diagram that overlaps and looks like one circle. Like that might be simpler, but most people aren't going to have that, at least not all the time. You might have that perfect overlap during some seasons, like maybe when you were first dating, you were perfect circles overlapping each other, and now that you have children, you're not. Or now that you're in a really busy season at work, you're not.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

And so helping people see differences in terms of desire with a little bit less fear is a big part of my role. Like actually it's okay if your partner wants to have sex more than you. Like this is a workable, normal difference. We don't need to be in a panic about it, especially if you can talk about it and you can acknowledge that desire and you have pathways for personal pleasure. I think that's really important, right. Like your partner is not going to fulfill every single sexual urge need that you have. So continuing if there's a desire discrepancy, continuing to have a way to engage in pleasure by yourself can be really important, and just not seeing it as such like a relationship deal breaker, like oh no, you don't want to have sex three times a week and I want to have sex three times a week and you want to have sex two times a week. That's a terrible thing and we can't make it work Like no, it's really not that binary.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I feel like in a long-term relationship, I've always dreaded the time when I would stop wanting to have sex. Not that I necessarily know that that will happen, but it's such a recurring, I think, narrative with like I mean even like literature, podcast, media, wherever friendships and I can see how that happens the dopamine isn't hitting quite so much as it is in the first months. Do you see that happening for men as much?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

you see that happening for men as much? Yeah, it it maybe not as much, but it I definitely see desire changes and low desire in men, and I think when men have lower desire than their female partners, there's a lot of shame that comes up around that. Um so like, yes, I definitely hear about it more in relationships between men and women, with women having lower desire. But it's really hard to unlatch that from societal issues that drive women into these really impossible division of labor situations. So, you know, sometimes it's just hard to tell. It's like if the playing field were really equal, would she want to have sex more? She might Like we don't actually know that if she had a second to herself, and sometimes that's a relationship issue, but some of it is also structural and societal, and so even just normalizing that of we're placed in these impossible roles and positions and that can be a really big desire killer that can make you not want to have sex.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Well, and sex is pretty inconsistent for women in terms of pleasure, with fewer orgasms and fewer internal orgasms and it being kind of a physically taxing experience.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yes, I think it's an old, like Dan Savage, I don't know comment joke. That's basically like if men had to get fucked every single time they wanted to have sex, they wouldn't want to have sex as often, and I think that's it right. There's it's a higher investment activity for the person being penetrated, and I think that's true of any any type of penetrative sex. It's just like takes more out of you, requires more cleanup, like comes with some some costs and some extra stuff in the way that like like, say, oral sex just doesn't. And so again that's coming back to like well, what if that's on the menu? What if, like, mutual masturbation is on the menu, then would that change the answer?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

If we could let go of the idea like it has to be just this one way, would it change your answer or your availability? Especially if and often this is the like issue in heterosexual relationships like if she believed yes, that actually is okay, that is, that's great, it's awesome, let's fool around, let's make out, let's whatever. There's no pressure. If we took the pressure out of it, then that interest can come back. When there's a sense of pressure and, like my partner is going to be terribly disappointed and maybe sulk or pout, then I mean that's like the biggest desire killer ever.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Been there.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

How do you navigate that discrepancy in desire, you know, for frequency, or just like when one person, one person, initiates and then the other person doesn't feel like it, that could feel really rejecting, and so that can you know, like then people don't want to initiate. Because how do you deal with that where there is that initial like um acceptance of rejection feelings around it? Do you just prescribe a certain number of initiation? How do you work with that, with couples.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah, it's a good example of how sex therapy is both like other therapy and also not like other therapy. So in some ways this is just a rejection, tolerance thing. Yeah, sometimes someone doesn't want to do a thing with you. That's part of being a person, it's part of being in a relationship. If you pout every time your partner doesn't want to play cards or see the same movie as you like, that's not going to go very well either. With sex it's particularly problematic because, um, the, the associations that you make around sex really determine whether you're going to want to have it again. So if now your association is when my partner initiates and I'm kind of on the fence, they throw a little hissy fit. Now we've kind of coded that in to the sexual script and that's part of it. And again, that's just not a turn on, I think, for anybody.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

This is very validating. I mean, it's interesting because when you talk about playing cards, like if I reject sex, it well what you're talking about it did have something to do with my partner, but like if I reject my current partner for sex, it has basically nothing to do with him and all about me not wanting to play quote unquote cards.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Like sex is sometimes hard. I don't always feel like doing it. You know it's like variably rewarding, um, but yet it's taken as such a rejection of the self. You don't want to have sex with me, it's about me. Oh my God, I would think some of the work would. Don't want to have sex with me. It's about me. Oh my god, I would think some of the work would be on like unpairing those, those things.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, something that is about that right, because you don't have the same desire, like the same draw to them as when you first started dating, right?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

so there actually kind of is like a yeah, but even when I first started dating him, it's more like I just wanted to be all over him. It's not like I wanted um, sorry the talk. It's not like I wanted to be having sex every single second of the day. I just wanted to be around him and, like, touch him, yes, but sex is that's, an activity that maybe I wanted to do with more frequency back then, but it's.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

I don't know. Yeah, I mean certainly there's a place for feedback and I mean that's actually the place to start. Often if there's some sort of challenge happening in a sexual relationship, like oh, I feel like I'm not as interested anymore, or like one partner feels rejected is like how do we make it as fun as possible for everybody involved? How do we make it so so satisfying? Start there rather than with how frequent, because not always, but sometimes. If you can make sex awesome for everyone involved, it will get them up to their like personal max, their comfortable max of like.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

You know what? When sex is great, I actually do want to have it once a week. When sex is mediocre, I don't want to have it once a week, because why would I want to do something mediocre on a weekly basis? Um, and when it's um also has again that like variability. When there's options for what you do that are lower investment, that don't require, you know, I think, particularly for women, like the whole full deal, shower and the shit, the grooming and the you know, whatever it is you do to prepare for sex, that can feel very weighty, so like are there options where you can still be intimate but not feel like you have to do all that, are there.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, we do do a lot, we ready ourselves for this activity.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah, yeah, we do it's, it's, it's a burden, it's it's time consuming, um, and and there is so much cultural baggage, I think, for both men and women, where, you know, women feel that they have to be a certain amount of seductive and present a certain way, and then men's value and self-worth is so tied into being able to seduce their partners that then that's where that rejection comes from. It's like, oh, I'm not valuable because, like, I'm supposed to be able to unquote, make her want me when, yeah, it might not have anything to do with him. It might be like, oh, I had a bad day, or it might be, you know, cycle related. Like, just like not aligned for me right now.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Um, it might be any number of things. It might be right, like there is a place for this, and this does sometimes come up in sex therapy. It might be like, actually, yeah, you don't do things that are that fun for me, or it seems like you're really focused on getting off and you're not that interested in whether I got off or whatever. It might be like that's certainly a relevant thing to bring out. Um, and part of part of working toward a better sex life is making sure again, like everyone's having fun.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

How do you? What kind of techniques are there um therapy for, let's say, women who have trouble orgasming? Is that like a common problem, or is that just something that's a holdover from Cosmo?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

like at all ever, under any circumstances, versus having trouble orgasming with a partner, versus having trouble orgasming during penetrative sex. And so a big part of sex therapy is like education around. Just you know, like the likelihood of orgasm during penetrative sex it's not that high. A lot of women just won't. The clitoris is not inside the vagina and most women orgasm from direct stimulation of their clitorises. So it makes a lot of sense and just just like aligning people with reality can be a part of this, where it's like actually you don't have an orgasm problem, you have like a, I have a vagina. Reality, and so like, let's just like align the sex that you have with the anatomy that you have. So I would say that's the more common version is like expectations around having orgasms without appropriate stimulation. Definitely some people struggle to orgasm at all or specifically with a partner. They can orgasm on their own, but they can't with a partner, and for both men and women that can sometimes, or like regardless of anatomy, that can come down sometimes to like the repertoire of masturbation that somebody has come up with, um, sometimes people masturbate either with very specific tools, um, or to very specific content and it gets like rigid, and so there are like behavioral therapy techniques that you can use to kind of like decouple those um stimuli from the sexual response. So that's definitely something that can be done like developing more, redeveloping, resensitizing different types of touch, a kind of classic but still good sex therapy.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Intervention is sensate focus, which is sort of like mindful touch. It's a series of stages in which partners touch each other not to make the other person feel good, but to just follow your own interest and be really present and mindful and notice like what does their skin feel? Like? Where do I want to go next? And obviously this is within a container of consent, but like, as I'm touching my partner, like this part of their skin feels warm, this part of their skin feels firm, this part of their skin feels soft. That interests me. And following interest in a mindful way rather than focusing on like I have to turn them on. I have to turn them on right now, because that's often where people get stuck when they start having sexual response issues.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Wait, tell us more about that. So it's not about the person being touched, it's the person touching like you know what I want?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

to have an orgasm right now, and a hundred percent of the time I'm going to be able to do it. It's like sleep. You cannot force yourself to go to sleep, just like at the drop of a hat and because it's outside your direct control, trying really hard to do it doesn't work. Um, in the same way that lying in bed, going like I have to fall asleep right now. If I don't fall asleep right now, I'm only going to get six hours of sleep and that's not enough for me. I'll be a wreck tomorrow. That doesn't make you fall asleep.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

And so releasing some of that control over your sexual response and developing interest and sensation is a really useful framework, and we can do this either in a structured way through this, like sensate focus style intervention, but it's also just like a way of thinking about sex, like how do I be more focused on? Just like how things feel, what does it feel like? And certainly if you're in a functional, functional, healthy state, you can focus on what feels good and following pleasure. But if there's sexual dysfunction and following pleasure sometimes doesn't work because it's like it's high pressure, right, it creates expectation like okay, so that feels good. Am I going to lose my erection? That feels good. Am I taking too long to have an orgasm? He's going to get bored right. And so taking away that pressure and expectation and instead entirely focusing on just like mindful self-awareness of the sensation.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean the amount of chatter going on in people's heads is insane. If I, I mean if I just think from the woman's perspective. I mean some things. I just think from the woman's perspective. I mean some things I've had in my head are like better, be really good at sex or he's going to leave. Being good at sex means being really enthusiastic about sex. So, okay, are you enthusiastic? Well, not really, but okay, like I, better act like it. Okay, like now. Am I seeming like I'm performing? Are these noises I'm making weird? Am I like slutty for having I don't know XYZ, like desire or this sex at all? What do I look at that from this angle? Should I have been too long in this position? If I stay in this position for too much longer, does that mean I'm boring at sex? Then we just go back into the circle.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean there's like releasing that chatter is a lot, and then for men I would think the performance anxiety would be quite high. Yeah, so is that so sensate? Focus is I mean that it seems like a mindfulness technique to kind of curtail some of that. Do you do a lot of like cognitive restructuring work as well in sex therapy?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah, I think a lot of what we've been talking about, in a way, is cognitive restructuring. Like sex doesn't have to be penetrative to count. Like how do we reframe what that means? How do we reframe the definition of sex? Like a classic sex therapy intake question that anybody listening can ask themselves is like what is my definition of sex? What does sex mean to me? And you can talk to your partner about that Like, how do we as a couple define sex? And if our sex life is healthy, what does that mean? What does it look like when we have a healthy sex life? Because these are not just like simple, there's one answer questions. So, yeah, I think cognitive restructuring is a huge part of it. Practicing behavioral skills Sometimes people got really bad sex education and so, like they're not great at certain sex skills, right, like they have incorrect anatomical awareness.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

You know, especially, I think, for men partnered with women. Sometimes they've just received a. I think for men partnered with women, sometimes they've just received a lot of garbage about like what women are supposed to like, and then paired with a woman who might have received a lot of garbage about like oh, I'm not supposed to be that demanding, I don't really like that. But he seems to like it, so I guess we'll do it. That's something he likes. Um, I've definitely talked to people who've had long, long relationships where something was happening in their sex life and it turns out neither of them liked it and they both thought that they were doing it for the other person.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Like what You're just taking me back to all my 20s.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Like mundane. I mean it can be mundane, it doesn't have to be totally salacious, right, like, oh, like. I think he really likes kissing my neck. It must be a turned on for him. But actually it's so ticklish for me, I don't. I don't prefer it, and they just haven't brought it up. And much more commonly, the most common kind of unfortunate thing that happens is that in heterosexual relationships, women have something they really want or need out of their sex life in order to make it good for them, and they just don't feel empowered to ask.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

What is the role of fantasy? I could see how I mean it could enhance orgasm, but I could also see and like, enhance the experience, add fun and play. But I could also see how it would separate the partners. So that they're both kind of in different worlds.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah, I think you know a lot of people can sort of lightly slip in and out of fantasy in a way that's very functional and so if, if that's you, you know, if you have moments during sex where you kind of like go away into imagery or somewhere else, I don't think there's anything problematic about that at all.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Fantasy, where you really, in order to experience pleasure, need to mentally go elsewhere, need to really picture something else, can be an intimacy killer, right. Like if your partner, in order to orgasm, always know, always has to go completely silent for 10 minutes and you know their body isn't moving and stuff and they're picturing something in their head that that can be a little alarming and just feel more disconnected. So I think it's a balance. I don't think and again, this isn't one of those like right wrong things. This is how does it feel for everybody involved? Um, I can see a framing of like how incredibly intimate that you feel comfortable being in the presence of your partner, but going wherever you need to go, like going to the most you know in intimate parts of your fantasies with them right there, like that's actually kind of hot, right, and I can also see it as like they left me behind. They're not here anymore, they're just off in their own thing and I'm just a body.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So it really is going to depend on the two people and how they feel about it. What do you do in that? Let's say there's a problem there. Let's say they're the partner who is kind of feeling on the out when that their partner fantasizes, but that's what they need to get off or that's what they, that's what they like. How do you change, like who changes? You know who has to do the work to come together. What do you do?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

yeah, it's such a good like. This is how therapy always is, couples therapy in particular, where it's like everyone, everyone changes and also everyone doesn't change, kind of such a both end. So in a case like that, then you know, we would want to get clear about what feels unsettling and what what the problem is. Right, like OK, I feel really abandoned. When you're silent for long periods of time during sex and I know that you're fantasizing about things that are outside of the two of us, that feels, you know, really kind of like violating to me in a way that sometimes people feel about that and the other person's like yeah, I get it, but like that's how I have an orgasm. I don't know how to have an orgasm a different way.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

So we might do a bunch of things. We might try to address that, like having an orgasm in multiple situations. There might be some like inflexibility there and often people this goes back to how they like learned how to masturbate and just like did it over and over again in the exact same way, reading the same story or watching the same porn or touching themselves the same way, picturing the same thing over and over again for like decades, and there can be retraining around that right, like it's not not like retraining who you're attracted to, but just sort of like. Do I have to always picture this one scenario every single time? So that's certainly an option on the table.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Another option is that maybe during certain types of sex they negotiate out like hey, I want us to be connected, can you stay with me, and then afterward, like you know, I'll participate in helping you have an orgasm and you can go where you need to go, like working out like when do I really need you here with me and when do I not need you here with me? Helping the person who feels abandoned, maybe rethink what it means. Does it have to mean that they're abandoned? So there's like a multi-prong approach.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Have you gained any insight onto why rape fantasies are so prevalent with women? Just random little insertion.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah, they're so, so prevalent. And it's interesting because I find most women wouldn't put it that way, but we do know that it's the most common fantasy put it that way, but we do know that it's like the most common fantasy it is. Yeah, yeah, it is. You know. So rape fantasies are like consensual, non-consent or forced seduction there's all these different ways to call it, because I think, understandably, like we want to be thoughtful about how we talk about fantasies that are not actual sexual assault. Right, because the fantasy is not. I actually want to experience a sexual assault. It's I want to experience knowing that I consented to something. But like playing with this taboo, this idea of forced sex, again in this completely consensual container, even if it's a fantasy and you're fantasizing like, oh, but what if it really happened? It's still a completely consensual container, even if it's a fantasy and you're fantasizing like, oh, but what if it really happened? It's still a completely consensual container, like the nature of the fact that you're fantasizing about it makes it consensual, with the exception of and I wouldn't categorize this in like the rape fantasy bucket for trauma survivors, who sometimes have like intrusive images coming up of their actual assaults or of similar events. It's kind of like a different, more like obsessive thought loop type thing. But for somebody who just like the way that they masturbate is like they find it really sexy to think about, like what if I was just taken?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

You know there's whole genres of romance devoted to this. It's a very popular trope and idea to play with. So I mean the like historical answer that I think has some truth to it is that you know, women didn't have historically a way to claim their own desire Like you couldn't just be like I'm horny, I want to have sex, I like sex. And so Fianna, saying sizing, about having sex taken from you, was a way to access, like wanting sex. So that's kind of one of the like classic explanations. Something I think that is prevalent kind of in today's world is like women have a lot on their plates, are doing a lot, and so the idea of just like complete surrender to something similar to you know, interest in submission can have an appeal to you know, interest in submission can have an appeal. Sometimes it's like, oh, I watched this one movie when I was 12 and it just really stuck with me and now now it's in my head and it's part of my arousal patterns Like sometimes there's not a logical reason.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Spam's pretty much aligned with my independent hypothesizing, which is just that, like women have to, so much goes into, yeah, asking for sex or having sex. Like will I? Will my number go up too much? Will this guy call me again? What will my mother think? What will my future husband think like? And if you can just erase all of that negotiation, um then it. What a relief and that's truly sexy Like to not have to think so much. Get like, wind yourself into a knot trying to figure out if you should even want the sex or if wanting the sex is enough of a reason to have sex. I mean, that's all such a sexiness killer.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah, all of that like worry tends to be a sexiness killer, in the same way that for um, penis havers like thinking about, like am I going to be like the best lover ever? Am I gonna, you know, like really take her to the moon with my equipment here? Um, that is also a huge boner killer. Right, like that's one of the main interventions around erectile dysfunction is just sort of like it's not that big a deal Like your penis might get flacc of. Like it's not that big a deal like your penis might get flaccid.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

That's something that happens, yeah what about if there's like a fantasy, for example the rape fantasy or something else, where it brings up a lot of shame? Or there's it's like this is my fetish or kink or whatever, but my partner is upset by it? Or I find it disturbing Like can people retrain into other kinds of fantasies or adjacent activities, or is it kind of like more about acceptance and leaning into something like that?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah, I mean so someone it's sort of like with anything. Any mental health issue where someone else being distressed about your symptoms is never going to be like quite enough of a reason to have the symptoms be a problem. If you're like completely fine and there's no functional impairment, the fact that your partner is like, yeah, but I really don't like this about you is not a reason for it to be a problem, for it to be like a diagnosis. If we were talking about a mental health issue and that's often how I see people navigating these sorts of things where it's like, well, what does it mean about you that you want this? I would generally place that on that person asking the question like, what does it mean to you?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

And you know like what happens for you when you think of your partner having that attraction and you know know how can we reconnect and accept the fact that they have that attraction?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

That's assuming, obviously, that they're doing like legal and consensual things that are within the container of whatever like monogamy agreements a couple has.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

So I think sometimes this topic is just like very, very triggering for people who have a history of infidelity in their relationships because it's like, well, yeah, it matters what they're into because they're going to go have that type of sex on the side. And so like I'm putting a caveat out here, that like I'm saying that within a monogamous relationship, as long as what your partner is doing is a fantasy, that they're not violating your relationship agreements, I personally take the stance that it's not your job to tell them like ew, that's icky. Of course you could decide you don't want to be with somebody who has certain types of sexual interests, but the reality is you're not ever going to know for sure that you know all of your partner's sexual interests. And what you teach your partner when you have a huge disgusted reaction, when they say like oh, I'm actually really into this, is like, don't tell me that in future, that's icky, I don't want to know. You teach them to lie to you.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I guess how? I don't this is a half-baked question, but like, how much do you find that kink really centers itself in a relationship? I mean, if somebody has a dominance fantasy, that's. I guess it's just a degrees question. But I guess, like, can it work if you've got this kink and your partner doesn't like it? Like is it worth finding a different relationship? And I mean, I guess I would assume that depends on how important that kink is to you. But um, it also seems to be like a degree of kink is a little bit out of your control. So yeah, that works.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah, I mean, I think you're right on and like the degree is going to be the big linchpin here. Um, I do think in part this is sometimes why people explore non-monogamy, because it's like oh, actually I don't want to end this relationship, but my partner does have an interest that I'm not interested in participating in, like in any way, shape or form. I do sometimes see people get good success with like okay, I don't want to do that, but like, I'll talk about it with you. We can pretend we're doing it, we can talk about doing it. We're not going to do it, but like, I'll talk to you about it. And that's the de-stigmatization part, that just knowing like my partner doesn't think I'm icky, they are accepting of me, that's not their thing, but they're like, willing to, they're willing to play. That can be a huge game changer.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

That's not going to be the case for everybody. You can't like be playful about something that truly you have like a very distressed, triggered reaction to Um, so it might not be available, but sometimes that's enough. Sometimes that takes the edge off of like okay, I don't get to actually do this thing, but we get to talk about it. We can even like incorporate it into our sex life without doing it. Talk about doing it but not doing it. That might be enough. Opening up the relationship is an option and then, yeah, for some people that might be a deal. Barker.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

How would you suggest people couples who are not in sex therapy to ask each other for something like this, like you? What you just said before stuck in my mind that women have a really hard time asking for what they want, and I think men too. You know in different ways, but if there's like, oh, I want to explore this new thing, or I want to explore and it's especially people are in a long-term relationship, or you know how, how do you just bring it up in the moment might be tough, but how do you?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

sit down and say hey, hubby, you know what I really want to do. Like, how do you do that?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Totally, I, yeah. So a few things I think can help with that. One is, although you certainly have a right to make sexual complaints and if you truly have them, you probably should make them If there's things that could be shifted without complaining, it's probably best to focus on what you want rather than being like. You know, what disgusts me is when you kiss me like that. It's just the worst feeling and it reminds me of my uncle, like you know, like he has a beard and your beard is scratchy. And you know, like whatever, like you're describing it that way is going to shut them down, make them feel so ashamed and so being able to, whenever you can again, this isn't always possible like, make it fun, make it sexy, like you know, what I love is when you do XYZ, like when you kiss me really softly. That feels so good, that's my favorite. What?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

What is the one question I really like for couples after, after sex, like right after having some sort of sexual encounter, is asking like, what was your favorite part? And then it'll cue your partner to reciprocate that question Like, oh, who's your favorite part? And you can say like, oh, when you did X, y, xyz. So if they're already doing it. This is very behaviorist of me. Like, if they're already doing it, reinforce that they're already doing it. Right, like, praise it in the moment, show that you're into it.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Um, if it's something that they haven't yet done but you want them to do, I think you know you have a lot of options. You can, um bring it up, you know, kind of like before sex, as part of a bit of options. You can, um, bring it up, you know, kind of like before sex, as part of a bit of like a flirty conversation. You can do it in a text If it's something that you don't think is going to be like shocking to them. Um, if it's, if it's a big ticket item that you've never approached, maybe don't do it that way. But if it's something that's on the menu already, like you know, it'd be super fun tonight is, if you X, y, z, um, so so, finding ways to make it a little bit lighter and less like. I have some critical feedback for you. Are you ready? Because that tends to turn people off and make them feel like they did something wrong rather than just like, hey, we're just like going back and forth and chatting about things.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I wonder. So I had this experience for the longest time of men being like tell me what you want, tell me what you like, and I didn't know. I mean some things I maybe knew, but in other ways I was like I don't know. I've never really analyzed how somebody has gone down on me and thought like, okay, this is the thing that I like and that's the thing I don't like, and um, and then, and then I think there's probably some I don't know. Just part of me is a little bit like shut down to understanding exactly what I want and like. And why do you deal with that?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Totally Well. Yeah, I think that's really common. That's how a lot of couples try to talk about. Sex is like hey, do you have any fantasies? And the other person's like no, and then that's it. It's kind of like the end of the conversation. If you Google yes, no, maybe, lists, there's tons of these that are just like free and everywhere and they are sort of what it sounds like lists where you can check off like yes, no maybe to different activities and then compare them and that's a really great like external thing that you can look at and be like do I or do I not like that? And sometimes seeing the option helps you know the answer versus having to come up with it and generate it yourself. So that's a fun tool. I feel like that's a fun kind of like sexual date night to do together and then talk about. You don't even have to have sex.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

That's something that I always encourage is like just talking about your sex life in a positive way. Is your sex life? That's part of your sex life, the dialogue you have about it. It's not separate from it. So that's one way I think, that people can get more in tune with what they like and don't like.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Um, I think you know, if you're working toward that mindful self-awareness of sensation, like going toward interest in the moment and then like reinforcing it, live of like, oh, like I like like a lighter touch that feels really good, or like I really don't like a lighter touch, it gives me like the heebie-jeebies when it touches me really lightly, um, moving, if you have like a consent, easy consensual relationship where this is comfortable, like moving your partner to like press just a little bit firmer, not necessarily the kind of like um dreaded, like blowjob head press, but um, like you know, if they're, if they're, um, if you want them to be a little bit more firmer, like pressing firmly on their, their skin so that they can feel that sensation, like there's some subtle reinforcements that you can use. Um, dirty talk okay, like harder, like you, whatever. So that's how you communicate the interest. But yeah, I think that, like fantasy reading, these are ways to figure out, like what you're into.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

I also don't think there's like an answer. Sometimes, when people don't have one particular kink or they're not like identified with a particular type of sex, it's like, am I supposed to have some sort of like complex answer to what I'm into sexually? And it might be like I don't know. I like sex, I like kissing and like these seven sexual activities and that's about it and that's fine.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I've never actually heard someone talk so much about the retraining piece and like learn, and so I'm still puzzling over that and wondering in this kind of scenario, is it like it's like people have their things that they like and then it's like relatively fixed or how flexible can you get in terms of what you like? Like? If someone asked me that, you know I'm thinking about like okay, there's certain things that I have always liked, but then some things have changed over time. And now I'm thinking about like okay, there's certain things that I have always liked, but then some things have changed over time.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

And now I'm thinking like, how malleable are people's like preferences? Not like I'm no longer going to like that thing. It's that like. Is it possible for me to like other things too? Um, and I think that can be helpful. It's not like, uh, I'm trying to change you framework. It's like we're trying to expand the number of things you can do. Only if it's disturbing to that person, right, like if I'm perfectly fine with my one way that I can have an orgasm, and it like requires three pillows and, like you know, a massage wand from the nineties. Like, fine, that's fine, you don't have to have an orgasm any different ways. But like, if, if that's not doing it for you, if it's causing problems for you, then like being able to gradually loosen, lighten up the intensity of that sensation, gradually. Like, make the pillows less fluffy. That is an option.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Um, women are a little bit more sexually flexible, but it's hard to say if that's like. I don't at all have the answer to this like. Is it biological versus like? Are women given more space for sexual expression and there's less baggage about like? Um, that means like for men. I think there's so much of like that means I'm not a man or like. That means I'm gay Y Z, and so women, generally speaking, do have a little bit more sexual flexibility, Um, and that's something that we see. But yeah, I don't think of it as like changing your preferences. I think of it as expanding what works for you.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Speaking of gay, um, I just read the book the tragedy of heterosexuality by this lesbian sociologist and it was like it was extremely validating to read this book and the premise of it. I mean, I'm going to be very reductionist here is why do men and women seem to hate each other?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

and yet date each other. Um, where you know I mean so much of. So many of their interactions are unpleasant, creepy, um, a lot of women saying things like men are trash women having to, like you know, tweeze every single hair on their bodies just to be like prepared for sex. And she was comparing this to queer sex where, it's like many more body types are considered sexy. Um, maybe different kinds of intimacy are considered sexy. Um, there's a lot more like play and flexibility and I don't know if this has more to do with um, there's been less like, um, of a societal consistent messaging around what kind of sex is okay, but I don't know. Do you see significant differences with your queer clients around sex, or do you see things that come up for them? Or do you see things that maybe heterosexual people could like take from them?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Definitely that. I mean you know queer couples have desire discrepancies, have sexual you know, differences in terms of interest. Like there's terms of interest, it's definitely not like a panacea for all sexual ills. There is really interesting research that kind of goes with what you just said that women in relationships with other women who have vaginal pain that's like diagnosed as vaginal pain do not experience it as problematic because there's no pressure for intercourse and so it's like great, I don't have to do the thing that hurts. So it's not distressing to me that I have this pelvic pain.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Versus women and heterosexual relationships who have pelvic pain, it's distressing because they are trying to have intercourse and the intercourse then hurts. And of course there are things you can do for pain during intercourse and the ways to improve that and hopefully resolve it. But I've stuck on that as just so interesting that, like you know how, how positive to be able to have this thing where it's like oh yeah, I do have this thing with my body but actually it's not a problem at all, cause we can just completely work our sex around my body and the way that it functions. So that's, I think, an example of something that, like, heterosexual couples really could take from queer couples as like can we just like work with what we've got? Can we like work with what we've got on a given day in terms of interest, in terms of bodies? I think is much more common in queer relationships so interesting.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

This whole conversation is making me think about how much we go into sex with such like blinders, on with very specific expectations and, um, like beliefs. Can I do this? Can I last this long? Am I this big? Is my vagina like that? Blah, blah, blah. And then it's really more about like exploration and understanding the realm of possibility.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah Well, that comment really begs a whole other conversation about the role of porn. But that might be a bigger can of worms. Please tell us that, because yeah, let's dig into that.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Is that? How can porn be helpful or harmful in your practice? Have you seen?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah, I mean I'm like porn neutral and I try to be really clear about where I'm coming from around porn, both like on social media and also with clients, because some people have very, very strong stances and I just always want people to like know what they're getting. So I'm porn neutral, which is like porn exists. Porn is a thing that is in the world. Um, there are forms of porn that are more ethically made and if the ethics of your porn are concerned, like those are options. Um, people use porn Like I I'm kind of just straight down the middle Like it's a, it's a substance, basically it's a material that is available and people are going to use it in a lot of ways.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

I do not take the stance that porn is cheating, which can sometimes anger people on the internet. I would just say that out front in case you're listening and you're like what does she think about that? I'll tell you what I think about that I really believe in people's like right to private sexual expression and that you you know what turns you on and how you masturbate, as long as it doesn't involve like another human being, sort of like live with you. That that's up to you. So I'm not not down to help people tell their partners they're not allowed to use porn. However, I do recognize there are some concerns that can come up around partners' porn use that are very relevant to the relationship and are things that I work with. So, yeah, porn can be just, you know, whatever. For people it can be something like oh yeah, when I want a quick orgasm, it's something I look at. It has nothing to do with our sex life. We have as much sex as we want to have. It has nothing to do with our sex life. We have as much sex as we want to have. It can set up really unrealistic expectations about sex. That's a thing right, like it can do that. I don't think it has to necessarily, but it can, and I've definitely seen that happen where expectations about what types of sex acts are just kind of like gradually getting more and more intense and when couples that don't have an agreement about like oh yeah, we're interested in kink that there's this just like intensification of like everyday sex the vanilla sex is getting less vanilla. Basically related to porn consumption is something that I've kind of observed, which maybe isn't a problem Like. Maybe for some couples it's like great, we're learning new things. But if your partner is sort of subtly being influenced by porn and expecting things from you that are not your desire, that can be a problem.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

I do think you know, just from a like physiological standpoint, if somebody has a more compulsive relationship around porn, especially as guys get older, they may have difficulty bringing sexual energy to their partner if they are masturbating a lot period. Often it's paired with porn, but I guess it isn't necessarily paired with porn. But if you're masturbating twice a day, like as guys age, they're just going to have a difficult time bringing any sexual energy to their relationship. Like the semen is gone because it's been spent elsewhere. So that can come up as an issue. I mean it's so, so nuanced and like complicated to talk about. But yeah, my stance on porn is kind of like it exists and we have to grapple with it and some couples can use it within their sexual relationship in a really pleasing way and others, you know that doesn't work for.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, I I'm very like, generally pro porn, but I have seen in my 20, in my sad 20 dating life where you're you're hooking up with someone and you're like you got this move from porn, Like I don't. I don't think I could be wrong, but I don't think women like what you're doing.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

It's just like you're just like trying to buff out a, you know, a scratch on your car. This is not something. We're in a position that you know. We're aiming to be visible to some like imaginary camera. I mean, this is not working.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah, I did various practicum at college counseling centers in my postdoc too, and so I got lots of like bad hookup story content in sessions and definitely that I think, especially for you know, especially for more casual sexual encounters where you don't have that context of like, hey, actually I don't like that, like don't do that, um, where that might be harder to say that sort of like pornification of daily life, like, yeah, I think it's a thing, um, yeah, I don't know that I would go so far as to say I'm like pro porn, but I'm not anti-porn either, I'm porn neutral.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I'm kind of anti-porn, so we've got this to actually.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I mean.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I'm not, I'm not like holy um, I just wish all porn were directed by women, I guess.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, because I wonder, you know, if, beyond the expectations for like particular sex acts, there's also. So I don't watch porn, but I'll take a gander occasionally, and it's just it. And by a gander I mean I don't do any deep dives or anything like that. It'll be like what's on Pornhub, right, what are the trends these days? And the one common denominator is all the shit that the tragedy of heterosexuality is talking about, like really debasing women and really gnarly relationships between the man and the woman in the scene, and then, you know, terrible sex. So I don't know, I don't have a problem. Yeah, that's a bummer, I mean there's.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

so that's yeah, directed by women is a great option. Paying for it, you know, this is when there's a difference. You know, say I was working with a couple who, you know, one partner uses porn and the other partner is really uncomfortable with it. Often, where we might end up, at least as an option, option is like let's start paying for porn, let's stop like whatever comes up on Pornhub is what I consume. Like let's start being purposeful about, like what I invite into my sexual fantasies, because there's just much better quality porn if you pay for it, which makes sense because I think you can make a better quality product if you got paid for it more directly.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

And then there's some modern like porn slash sexual education platforms that I've seen couples use and enjoy, like there's one called OMG. Yes, that is like both sex education and also has videos, and so you know it is a really different framework. So I think that can be a nice compromise if there's a difference around expectations about porn. Like I'm not going to watch porn. Where we're worried like was this person exploited? Where we're really concerned about kind of the messages that the porn is sending, although certainly, you know, I don't ascribe to the idea that like there could be very feminist porn that looks on the surface debasing to women, because maybe that's just the interest.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah, right, exactly so. Um, you know, I don't think that all feminist porn. Actually, this was a really interesting thing. I taught human sexuality, um, when I was in grad school and I showed porn clips in the class, um, which is an interesting thing, and I did. I didn't ask permission from, like the school, I just kind of did it and it worked out.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

And so, you know, I sourced all these different types of porn clips and part of the exercise was like what is feminist porn? If we're watching pornography and assessing it for being feminist, like what does that even mean? And one of the things that students kind of consistently came up with was, you know, the focus on like consent and the visible pleasure was really important, not necessarily what the clip was like. And so I showed clips that were more like romantic and often initially people would be like, well, I thought that would be the feminist porn. But like it's not necessarily just because it's like soft and romantic and like a little squishier feeling, just because it's like soft and romantic and like a little squishier feeling. It could be hardcore, like BDSM porn, and it could still be really overtly feminist, depending on how those sex acts are framed and set up and how the consent is shown, and like what's happening with the power dynamic, like can still be really feminist pornography.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean, I think part of what I object to is just that the, the girl, is always kind of portrayed as like stupid, like dumb, and I don't whatever. Any of this can happen in feminist pornography too, but I just I will anyway. And I'm also worried about, like, the younger generation and they are not going to pay for porn and so they're going to consume whatever is at the top of Pornhub and I'm concerned for society. But maybe that'll be for the next generation of therapists to work there. I don't know.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Maybe there'll be a movement of like pay for your kids' porn.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I think the only question I had left was like what do you do when there has been a history of sexual assault that is impacting the sex life of your patient?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Yeah, and that's something that often people are dealing with, both like in their individual therapy and then also in their couple's therapy.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

And so, you know, on the individual level it's like trauma treatment to address that trauma. On the couple's level, I think you know you can bring the partner in to just really understanding why certain things might not be available, helping them, you know, have more compassion and understanding, because sometimes it might seem kind of idiosyncratic, it's like why would me like you know I'm a safe person why would me like brushing up against your shoulder be sort of stressing for you? And people can personalize that. So education to the partner of kind of like how trauma symptoms develop and how they work, that it's really not personal. Sometimes one person will you know the person who's experienced a sexual assault like they really want to take back more of their sexual activities. They don't want to be sort of like letting trauma triggers decide for them what sex acts they participate in, and so then there can be kind of like coping strategies for like, okay, this is my. You might experience, you know, a trigger. You might experience, you know some, some sensation during sex, like what's the plan when that happens? Um, there's a really nice old, older book, um, by Wendy Maltz. It's called the sexual healing journey. Let's see what it's called the sexual healing journey. Um, that has a lot of like really nice exercises and like a very sort of practical approach to dealing with triggers that come up during sex and like kind of healing sexually, both individually and as a couple. So that's like a very widely available on Amazon option. Yeah, it's a really challenging thing.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

I recently answered kind of this question in my newsletter and the question writer posed it as, like my boyfriend keeps doing something that he knows I don't like due to my sexual assault history, but he has ADHD and is really impulsive and he keeps doing it during sex. And I thought it was such an interesting question and I really thought a lot about it because, um, you know, especially with the written word and without an actual couple in front of me, I know that people are likely to kind of polarize and be like, well, that's a deal breaker, like that's violating consent, that's, you know, sexual assault on its own Like you should break up with him. Or like, well, he has ADHD, he can't help it and like you know, you need to be compassionate to him. That there's we're really tempted to polarize and see this in a very black and white way. Um, and and you know kind of where I came down to with that particular thing, which isn't exactly what you asked but I just think is interesting um was that there's like appropriate boundaries that need to be set, that there's like appropriate boundaries that need to be set right.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Like, if someone keeps violating your boundaries, then you need to decide, like, what am I going to do? Am I going to continue to be sexually available, knowing that this might happen again? Am I going to limit my sexual availability? Am I going to ask for certain steps to ensure that this can't happen again? It really made me think, you know, especially thinking through. Well, does it matter what the sex act is? I pretended that it was kissing the person's neck, but what if it wasn't that right? Like, what if it was a more intimate sex act? That would probably change the answer too.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I did think of one more question, but I don't want to steal it Go for it.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Okay, my last question is you work with high conflict couples and a lot of people in those relationships describe the rollercoaster and the rollercoaster is bad, but it's also good because top of the rollercoaster it's really fun and passionate and maybe in that passion can be a reason why you stay in it and I would think that has all sorts of implications for sex and maybe a misuse of sex, like after fighting the sex is really great and maybe that can encourage fighting. Any kind of notes on that? On that?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

dynamic. Yeah, sometimes when I post about the intersection between high conflict and sexuality, people be like there's no way these types of couples are having sex. And of course, some high conflict couples don't, um, but a lot do. And it is exactly what you're describing quite often, where there is that rollercoaster and makeup sex is a really big ritual, um and and it's like okay, we know, we're okay.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

But that does tend to reinforce the like toxicity and the ups and downs, and so I, you know, kind of like tend to recommend delaying makeup sex. Like don't fall into bed, right, as you're, okay, we made up, Now we get to have this, because that really reinforces like this is what we get after. We're horrible to each other. Make sure you fully close the loop. Make sure you actually properly resolve the conflict. What people often do with makeup sex is like they resolve it just enough to start making out and then afterward it's like everyone has good, happy hormones and they're no longer in the mood to keep fighting, so they just move on, which can be fine once in a while, but if that's your main conflict resolution strategy, it's really not going to work. So, you know, sex is awesome, but it's not a good like perpetual conflict resolution strategy If it means that you're actually avoiding the problems that you're fighting about.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Great. Do you um? Where can people find you if they want to?

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

you know, get more resources, or even are you taking new clients, or I'm typically full um, something I'm starting to do a little bit more often is in-person intensives in portland, oregon. So, in general, my caseload is full for ongoing clients. But, um, if people either are in Oregon or have the ability to travel to Portland, which is a fun city, um, that that's a way to work with me. If that's something you're interested in, and that information is on my website and then you can reach me for just like, general um, general commentary on relationship complexity. Um, on both Instagram and Tik at DrMarinaRosenthal, and if you click to either of those places, you'll see a link and it will lead you to various resources that you can check out, some of which are free my blog, various ways that you can hear more from me.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Awesome. I do recommend you check Marina out on Instagram at Dr Marina Rosenthal. I do not tend to follow a lot of psych accounts. They irritate me, but I do like yours, um, and you do address complexity in a lot of different ways and I really appreciate that, because that's difficult to do in a 90 second clip.

Dr. Marina Rosenthal:

Thank you, that's nice praise thank you, that's nice praise.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

well, we will see you all next week. This was a really gratifying topic to have an expert on, because it's usually just kibbe and me talking about our our own experiences or hypothesized experiences. So thank you for giving us some legitimacy for this and thank you for coming on for a second time. Maybe we'll see you again, but for now I love it. Thank you for having me. Thank you everyone for listening and we'll see you next week.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

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