A Little Help For Our Friends
A LITTLE HELP FOR OUR FRIENDS is a mental health podcast hosted by Jacqueline Trumbull (Bachelor alum, Ph.D student) and Dr. Kibby McMahon (clinical psychologist and cofounder of KulaMind). The podcast sheds light on the psychological issues your loved ones could be struggling with and provides scientifically-informed perspectives on various mental health topics like dealing with toxic relationships, narcissism, trauma, and therapy.
As two clinical psychologists from Duke University, Jacqueline and Dr. Kibby share insights from their training on the relational nature of mental health. They mix evidence-based learning with their own personal examples and stories from their listeners. Episodes are a range of conversations between Kibby & Jacqueline themselves, as well as with featured guests including Bachelor Nation members such as Zac Clark speaking on addiction recovery, Ben Higgins on loneliness, and Jenna Cooper on cyberbullying, as well as therapists & doctors such as sleep specialist Dr. Jade Wu, amongst many others. Additional topics covered on the podcast have included fertility, gaslighting, depression, mental health & veterans, mindfulness, and much more. Episodes are released every other week. For more information, check out www.ALittleHelpForOurFriends.com
Do you need help coping with a loved one's mental or emotional problems? Check out www.KulaMind.com, an exclusive community where you can connect other fans of "A Little Help" and get support from cohosts Dr. Kibby and Jacqueline.
A Little Help For Our Friends
Navigating the Complex Family Dynamics of a New Marriage
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Can a new marriage really shake the foundation of a once harmonious family? Maybe if the newcomer is, ahem, emotionally challenging. In today's episode, we respond to a listener who asked for tips on dealing with the toxic behavior of a new family member. "Emma," a Little Helper, sent us a message describing her frustration with her uncle's new marriage following the passing of their beloved aunt. Her extended family is large and close, but this new bride "Mary" interrupts the dynamic with narcissistic, controlling, critical, and jealous behavior. We explore the delicate balance of blending families after the loss of a central family figure, shedding light on how personalities and past dynamics play crucial roles in this transition.
As much as we wonder if Mary exhibits Cluster B disordered behavior, we also examine the potential struggles she faces as she steps into the challenging role of matriarch later in life. The family's expectations weigh heavily on her, and we explore how her critical and controlling traits have contributed to the tension. We also question the uncle's role, too, as his perceived lack of assertiveness adds fuel to the fire. Through personal reflections and poignant examples, we highlight the intricate dance of balancing new relationships while respecting longstanding family ties.
Finally, we touch on broader themes, including the impact of cluster B traits on family dynamics and the emotional complexity of marrying into a close-knit family. We explore how empathy, understanding, and effective communication can help navigate these turbulent waters. From the gatekeeping behaviors that hinder personal connections to strategies for managing challenging interactions, how do we maintain family harmony amid change and exploring the evolving nature of family dynamics?
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Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, the podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. What up little helpers? Today we're doing something new, which is that a fan submitted a scenario of what's going on in into your family and reshuffles the dynamic. So, Kibbe, can you tell us what exactly is going on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I will, let's call her Emma. So our fan, Emma, wrote in with this story about what happens when someone marries into a family and we talk a lot on this podcast about people with narcissism or BPD or other kinds of interpersonal difficulties already in a family and you know what does that look like, what does that family dynamic look like. But then what happens if someone? Someone comes, enters in to an existing family dynamic and then causes destruction? So, um, it's like a lot of these themes of splitting families and estrangement and what do you do when someone's being a gatekeeper to the rest of the family. So emma talked about how her family, her extended family, has this beautiful connection where they all are in touch with each other. They all visit each other, like cousins and uncles and grandparents and their kids, Many generations. They go on family trips together. They're super close. It honestly sounded like a dream family when she described it.
Speaker 2:So the uncle was the patriarch of the family and the central figure whose wife, their aunt. They've been together since they were in high school and she recently passed away from cancer and that was really, really hard for the family because since they were the rock, they were the center. All the family came to them. It reminds me of my family too, where it's like there's what is that called that keystone, this keystone in an arch that holds together a family. What happens when they pass? What happens when you lose that key member of the family? That's like the gravitational pull for the rest of the family. And then not only that, not only what happens when you lose that keystone, but then in recent years the uncle remarried.
Speaker 2:We'll call her Mary because that was just easier. And so Mary just married into the family and she has I mean, we can't diagnose her, but she has a lot of difficult traits. She is very critical of the rest of the family. She makes little digs and comments, especially about people's like job or education, their body and their weight, Like she's apparently very proud of her body. Even though she's a little bit older, she's, you know, very proud, very proud of her body. Um, even though she's a little bit older, she's, you know, very proud of showing off her body.
Speaker 1:Real quick how? What are the ages? I mean not exact, but are we 60?
Speaker 2:I think around 60, I think she mentioned 60. Okay, yeah, so six, 60s and or seventies, Um, so she makes comments about the, the family's appearance and their bodies and just like one of those kind of like ha ha, just joking, but kind of like really mean comments. She seems to react with, you know, she seems to be angry or react with avoidance whenever the previous aunt, the one who passed away, is mentioned. So the way that looks is they'll be talking about her like a story or bring her up and then she will leave and she'll you know, huff and make her displeasure known, known and walk away.
Speaker 2:So everyone has to be careful about what to say around her and she has taken all of the aunt's stuff and, you know, replaced it with her own craft room, um, and it just has very, apparently, very subtle but controlling behavior. So, for example, another thing that she does is the uncle is very close with you know different cousins and members of the family. A lot of people will come visit him and hang out with him and she has actually made that stop. She's like it's not appropriate that you have these family members coming over all the time, you know, and basically block people from hanging out with him.
Speaker 2:She's also seems to change the way he sees himself Like, apparently in recent years as he's with her. He says that he's like too accommodating and a little bit too much of a pushover. It's just me reading, but between the lines it seems like she's criticizing his closeness with the family, right, Like the way he gives to them, the way he responds to their needs. She is a little bit critical of that. So he's kind of pulled away, or, you know, mentioned these things that the family is like what. What are you talking about?
Speaker 1:So she's calling him a pushover.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the, the new wife, mary, is calling the uncle pushover and saying you're too, you're too much of a pushover, right, this is not appropriate. And and he's like I guess I am, and so he's like reflecting on himself in ways that the family doesn't see and understand and doesn't see him as. And then what she says is what Emma said is I guess the most painful part is the network distribution of pain throughout my family. They grew up close and then this one figure has made the whole dynamic tense. They completely feel like the whole dynamic has changed. They can't feel relaxed around her uncle's home. She changed away, like physically, the way it looks and what they can talk about and how they relate to each other. Um, she has a family of her own where the relationships are very strained too. So I think there's a lot there. I think there's a lot there. I think there's a lot of, yeah, my mind buzzing with, with thoughts yeah, yeah, go well your thoughts.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think I think obviously this is going to turn into a conversation about you know what, how can they navigate around this meteor that's hit the family and you know how can they maybe set boundaries or how can they figure out how to talk to you know the uncle, and a lot of the behavior that Mary is showing is concerning and not great. I also don't I don't think we can have a full conversation about this without acknowledging Mary's possible perspective, because I actually kept noticing myself being like, oh, that sucks for Mary. Mary's in a really difficult position here too, and I think I mean my first reaction is, if I were Emma, I would hate this situation. So like I fully understand why she's upset and why she reached out, because I like keep imagining my mom dying and then my dad remarrying and this scenario and like how crushing that would be.
Speaker 2:She's got someone you don't get along with. I think that's one thing, just to have someone replaced, but someone who's just like, wants to change the fabric of the whole Trumbull family. You know that would be.
Speaker 1:Well, in my, in my family, we are not close with extended family with we don't have actually much extended family so it's. But you know, we have like a relatively large family and it's kind of tribal and it's got its traditions and we're there's a lot of like pride there. So I hear a lot of grief in this story because I mean, yeah, a keystone of the family has disappeared and so things are rearranging themselves and there's a lot to grieve there. It's not just grieving a person, but it is grieving that you know the closeness of this family and the how do I put this like cohesion of the family. But I do just want to notice what Mary has walked into, because there are some things here that I think would be just really difficult to be her and I can kind of understand her decision-making around some things.
Speaker 2:In what way, Like what sparks that sympathy?
Speaker 1:The first thing that strikes me is the house being changed. So okay, so my mom?
Speaker 2:hits on a personal thing for you, huh.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, Jason, I are at war over the decorating, but, but like my mom has, you've seen our house, right?
Speaker 2:I haven't been there personally.
Speaker 1:I've seen I know's crazy okay, my mom has a very particular decorating style. It's extremely lush. There's plants, paintings, art like instruments, just everything around. You know, it's like it's really, really distinctive, and if she died and my dad remarried and a woman moved in, it would be gutting to watch all of that go away. At the same time, it would also be pretty unusual if it didn't, because some, because a new woman is coming in and surrounded by stuff that's not her taste and isn't hers and is a reminder of a ghost, right Like. So it doesn't strike me as particularly strange that this woman would come in and want to redecorate, and I think the only thing that makes us pause around that is the fact that she's later in life. Like I'm going to be a second wife. Jason already redecorated me, whatever. But if, if heidi's stuff was everywhere, you I'd want, I'd want a few tokens to keep it alive for Kai and Jason, but like, ultimately I'm not gonna keep. You know, I'm not gonna keep it decorated in the style of somebody who isn't there anymore, if for no other reason than because I have the right to be in a home that I enjoy, right like, I want to decorate myself.
Speaker 1:Decorating is important, so To me this sounds more like grief at change. The other thing is clearly like there's some like Mary's own behavior is, um, influencing certain things, like the fact that she's not close with her own family. That's got something to do with Mary, right? But Mary's in an interesting predicament, which is that she's coming in to replace the matriarch of this big family system and she's coming in alone, like I don't know where her family is. But it's like she's just stepped into this role at the head of this family and it's unclear how much autonomy she's supposed to have within it. That isn't just going to disrupt everybody else, right? So she's changed the decorating of the house and that's like hurt a lot of people understand, of course, right. But she's also maybe noticing like this thing about not allowing relatives to visit is preposterous.
Speaker 1:At the same time, I wonder what she's thinking. Is it that I'm trying to have this union with a person and all of the rules have already been set before I even got here, you know? So like, okay, it's set that he has lunch with his son all of these days. What happens to lunch with me? It's set that. You know there's all these family gatherings and reunions, like that's a lot of.
Speaker 1:I'm married now, that's a lot of time that I'm spent with people who don't like me first of all and resent my existence. That's maybe because of my own behavior, um, but it's actually a quite difficult position. I don't know what it's like to be in your sixties or 70s and start over in a new life, because I'm coming in to and in my 30s and you know we have to keep things sort of safe and recognizable for Kai, but he's moving and then ultimately, like Jason and I, get to start our own lives together and we get to be the directors of it. But she's coming into like a finished project and has to find her role and I just can imagine that that would be a difficult thing to navigate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no, you're right. You're right. I'm thinking about your situation and then my stepmom's situation, where you're coming in and there's a, there's a big shadow, like there's a big shoes you have to fill, and you're like do I even need to fill this or can I just buy my own shoes? Right, it's like you, every everything that's already established there, like Jason's relationship with his son or my you know, my relationship with my dad when I was young is takes that space, takes that priority. And then, when you're starting a new relationship, you want to create a new thing together. You want to create a new home, which is easier when you're young and you're just like very malleable, but it's harder when there's an already established home that you're literally trying to come in and co-create. So it's like either you have to slip in and be unnoticed or there has to be like a wild change, otherwise you're just. You're just going to be like compared and like trying to replace someone else.
Speaker 1:Right, and I don't, I genuinely don't know what that is like in your seventies. If you, if you have a second marriage, you know, late in life, do you understand that you're not going to flip the table over and start from new, like, because there is some responsibility here to maintain the cohesiveness of the family. But how much responsibility, and I can also understand how she's not super excited to do that. There's not a lot of friendliness here and I'm not saying that's on Emma's family. It might be very rightly deserved, but it's tough. It's tough when you know people don't like you very much. It's tough like it's tough when your own personality traits make it difficult to be liked, you know, or to like others, and so I think it's.
Speaker 1:Another thing that really stood out to me was when Mary called the uncle a pushover and the family really objected to that. Because actually what I'm sensing is that some of this anger that's going on might be more appropriately labeled disappointment in the uncle for not maintaining the traditions, the house, the cohesiveness himself, because it's actually much more his responsibility than hers. But she's getting the full blame for it and mary, like he is, he, he is, he's not standing up to her in certain I mean maybe he is and we don't know about it, but in this story he's actually not standing up to her. And so I mean maybe he is and we don't know about it, but in this story he's actually not standing up for her. She's running rough shot all over this whole thing and then kind of rightly points out like you're a bit of a push.
Speaker 2:So it's interesting that it came from her and that this is right, or or it's like their closeness and we don't exactly know what she's tapping into right. It's just like, um, there might be this closeness in the whole family that exists, and then she's asking or wants it to change, or maybe he wants it to change. He's not actually communicating it with the family, who knows. But then she goes well, you know, you're too much of a pushover, you're kind of not setting these boundaries that we want or I want.
Speaker 2:So, maybe this is not a trait that he has globally, but like that might be a point of contention in their relationship.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I mean he's in a tough position too. He's being pulled in different directions.
Speaker 2:It just reminds me. It's interesting. We've talked recently that there's some people in our lives, and even my clients, who have experienced a loss in the family and it's always surprising to people, including me when I lost my dad. You think you're going to grieve the person Like. You're like, oh, I'm so sad that that person is here. I miss them and that's certainly there.
Speaker 2:But sometimes the secret pain that's a constant is then what do you do with the whole fabric and network around them?
Speaker 2:I mean, this is the whole thing that we talk about over and over again is that emotions are so housed in the community and the social like relationships around you because you don't just leave that person, you lose that network of relationships, right, like that feeling that the family could go over to the uncle and aunt's house and sit on this chair and have this coffee and have this lunch and have these conversations, right, right, that's all the structure that she was a key part of and kept it together.
Speaker 2:And then when you see that person go away, you get the missing that person. But you also I see a lot of family members trying to do what they can to preserve and getting really upset about. Well, we used to go over here for christmas and we all used to go together and now we're split up and the this brother has to go there and that you know like, and people get really upset that the whole family traditions you know have to change and so you're grieving, you're grieving a family dynamic. It'll never be the same without that person and that's so hard for everyone.
Speaker 1:I think that's. I mean, I agree a thousand percent. I see this more as an episode about grief than about dealing with a toxic family member, because and we'll talk, we'll, we'll talk about the toxicity part and navigating that. But I think what I'm noticing in this prompt is all of the ways that they resent her for coming in and changing things, and maybe Emma would object and, you know, add stuff. But when I think so, my dad has cancer and when I think about him dying, it is interesting. I mean there's the yeah, you're exactly what you're saying there's the grief over him. But then I think about holy smokes.
Speaker 1:Like my family, I I just don't know how it could continue in any way. That resembles how it's been. Like my dad is the cook. I mean, do you think it's like simple? The simple thing about him creates so much meaning. Right, he creates because he makes these beautiful meals. He creates the place where people come and people feast and we have events. Right, it's like if my dad, at least my mom, would be able to maintain a house that big by herself, like, is she going to choose to live alone? Is she going to choose to downsize? And then, once she downsize, are people going to like come to her? Or is everything going to shift over to one of my siblings houses, you know, once we stop having this like place to um? I don't know why my words are not coming to me right now, but, um, when people come all together, Gathering.
Speaker 1:Sure, whatever, we don't have a place to gather. That is my parents' house. Like they're the you know they're the top. We all go to them. Are my siblings and I even going to hang out as much? Like, are these things going to happen as much, right? So a lot of things are going to become sort of diffuse and things going to happen as much, right? So a lot of things are going to become sort of diffuse.
Speaker 1:And then I mean there's no way in hell either my parents would remarry Although my grandfather did, when he was 90, he got engaged when he was like 93 or something. But if they did, like that person is going to I mean, she is a fully formed person, or he is a fully formed person who has expectations and wants and desires, and their want and desire isn't. I'm going to keep this family whole and keep it exactly how it was. It's probably something similar to. I have my own life path that I'm protecting and I'm going to live as happily as I can and hopefully that person has the respect and the compassion to realize what their presence does to the family. But really, this is also what a loss has done to the family and that's where so much of this change has happened and I really feel for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I saw when I was reading over Emma's messages. It really was striking that a painful part is that that this, the presence of this woman, is not allowing them to grieve in their way. They can't talk about her, they can't preserve the house the way it was, they can't do the same kind of routines and gatherings, um, so it's, it's a blocking of this group grieving process and I do see that there's a lot of anxiety around trying to. I mean there's the grieving of feeling their emotions and and and remembering them and just like talking about them. But there is also the anxiety of like, oh gosh, my dad was the cook and we all used to go over and have meals. Now, who's going to cook? Right, that simple question sometimes is like question, sometimes creates this new anxiety that I'm seeing in my patients, but me too.
Speaker 2:When my grandparents passed away, we would go every year to Hong Kong to go quote, quote, visit them. But we're visiting each other. That was the time that I saw my cousins and then their kids and you know they were almost kind of the excuse so that the whole family could get together. But now that they're not there, there's this anxiety around like, okay, who's going to be that point person?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like do you want that responsibility? Do you like who's going to be that person that draws people in or does the same, has the same role as the person you lost? And if it was someone new coming in, that's anxiety. That is just impossible. And I think that you're right. This is a grief process that might be an extra special pain to it. But if the person coming in doesn't have the emotional skills or the social skills to navigate that well and to allow a really tough job of creating a family of your own, creating a home and a marriage of your own, but then also allowing for everyone's grief about the person you're stepping into.
Speaker 1:I mean, I totally agree. Not being able to talk about the grandmother is completely inappropriate. I just I guess I I find that there's a conspicuous lack of anger towards the uncle.
Speaker 2:Interesting. What kind of anger do you think the uncle should get this?
Speaker 1:is his family to protect it's his family and he. He remarried quickly, before people had grieved. He let a woman come in and redecorate the house he's allowing her. To huff and leave when the aunt is mentioned, like I don't and I and I just feel like this happens a lot with with divorce or parents, where people, people place the blame on the person who's easiest to push away or lose.
Speaker 2:The outsider.
Speaker 1:The outsider yeah.
Speaker 2:That's a really good point. That's a really good point. I didn't really think about that, about how that it's. I mean, that position is such a difficult position. It reminds me of when my husband was with someone um, before me, obviously, but it was with someone that didn't get along with his family, that well, like, there was a lot of conflict. Um, there's a conflict in that relationship too, but there was real conflict.
Speaker 2:And the thing is that, like, with people with cluster B traits, there is a splitting effect, right, I think that's people with cluster B traits. There is a splitting effect, right. I think that's something that people talk about. But what that looks like is that one person can really split groups of people, literally meaning some people are good and some people are bad, and then they create this conflict that literally splits them apart. And it happens with people who have cluster B traits and traditionally it would like if you have a treatment team, like a psychiatrist, psychologist, a doctor, sometimes those providers will be at war with each other Because they'll be like, well, I heard that you prescribed her this and she was unhappy with it and I, you know, suddenly, like a treatment team that used to be cohesive is now at war with each other and that's why in dialectical behavior therapy there's such an emphasis on all the providers being on the same page and having like a consultation, like there's a lot of structure around preventing that.
Speaker 2:So when my husband was with the ex and it was like all the family didn't like her and then they had the conflict, it was tough for him because he goes okay, well, what am I supposed to do? If I'm allied with her, my girlfriend, then I'm isolating from the family, I'm separating from the people I love. But if I'm in line with them, I might be like losing someone that I love, like I'm risking the relationship, right. So they're really stuck between a rock and a hard place. And if a family is family and there's more security in those relationships, then he has to protect the new person, right? He has to protect the girlfriend because, yeah, she's like the outsider trying to come in and she's being quote bullied, so he's got to protect her against the family and that caused a lot of issues. So I know that the uncle here, emma's uncle, is in a really difficult position.
Speaker 1:He is. Yeah, but part of protecting Mary might be saying like hey, here's how you can get along better. Yeah, you know protecting Mary might be saying like hey, here's how you can get along better, yeah, you know, here's what's good. And look we, we can talk, we can do the rest of the episode as if she has cluster B traits, but we don't actually know that.
Speaker 1:I mean right being critical, making critical comments could be a side effect of like social anxiety or autism or like all sorts of things, right? Or you just say say stuff, stuff, thinking they'd be funny or it's not. But you know, there is another besides just the grief element. There is another part about like maybe there are cluster B traits coming in and then how do you navigate around those and so we can act as if she has that. But yeah, I just think there's so much grief here and it's really hard on every single person involved. I mean the uncle. This might be part of his grieving process is meeting somebody new and not having to think that his entire life is over, and so you know it's hard for him as well. But maybe keeping in perspective all of these various positions could be helpful for trying to bridge this gap.
Speaker 1:I think you're right.
Speaker 2:When I first read the story I was biased towards Emma and I was like that bitch, how could she do this to this poor family? It's so beautiful, they all hang out together. I want that someday. But then I'm like, yeah, actually, you know, there is a lot of emotions there, there's a lot of pain. Anyone stepping into that role is going to have a hard time and when you think about how difficult it must be for her, it's intimidating to marry into a really close family. I mean, goodness right, especially if you do have cluster B traits, if you do have narcissism. The sympathetic view of those kind of people is that they deal with anxiety, social anxiety, and try to get connection and love and approval is through the grandiose or the attention seeking behaviors, right. That's why it's such a disorder, because they learn one way of trying to make friends yeah and it doesn't work everywhere.
Speaker 2:So her coming in and maybe even like devaluing other people, uh, or trying to in different ways be possessive over the uncle's time and house and room, and like maybe some people just come in and dominate when they don't know how to deal with a uncomfortable situation, so, and it's not good, but that might be what she's feeling she may have a background that tells her too that she has to take care of herself and take charge, or she'll be neglected or you know, or insert here other bad outcome, so we don't know.
Speaker 1:There seems to be some significant immaturity demonstrated here. I mean not being able to hear anything about your predecessor in front of the whole family when you're in your 60s or 70s is like probably something you should grow out of.
Speaker 2:How do you feel when Jason talks about his late wife?
Speaker 1:I feel fine, but I don't experience jealousy. Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean I, you feel no things, you feel nothing.
Speaker 1:Typically no other than I mean I kind of like talking about her because I like knowing more about his past and, um, she's definitely a welcome topic. I mean it might feel strange if there were pictures about her, of her everywhere. I mean, there have been, there have been times when I've wondered if his love for me could be complete, given that he lost his wife. I don't know if that's really what I mean to say there, but, um, there have certainly been times when I've been a little bit concerned that that that hurt.
Speaker 1:I forget who wrote this line. It was in a book that I read, but it was that it was basically that, um, somebody, somebody was dating another person, or I was in love with another person, and that person's spouse died, and so it it was like, yes, they're available, now I get to have them, or something. And the quote was something like not realizing that a dead oh shit. It was like not realizing that a ghost is your hardest enemy. It was actually a really well-written quote, but it was basically like if you've lost someone, if you've broken up with somebody, presumably you've noticed some of their flaws. Right.
Speaker 1:If somebody dies, you tend to idealize them and cement that idealization forever. And that's it was that a ghost is the hardest competitor. Hmm, ooh. Yeah. That's a good quote.
Speaker 1:Um, and that's probably true here I, however, I think when you're in your sixties or seventies you kind of have to know that comes with the territory. But I don't know what her own relationship with her first husband was, or she had a husband, or you know what her relationship history was like Like. Maybe she's in a period of time where she feels like this is it for me, this is the one, this is the time I finally am valued and prioritized, and yada, yada. We don't know.
Speaker 2:I do remember part of the story is that she has a difficult relationship with her kids and family.
Speaker 2:So I assume that she was partnered before, or at least you know at some point, and she was sent away to school at a young age. So there definitely are some attachment issues and that's the only reason why I'm a little bit more comfortable thinking that it's a cluster B behavior, because if it was just the way she behaves with this family, okay, you can't actually diagnose personality disorders if it's only showing up in one area. It has to be across all domains of your life, life. So if she has had this kind of issues before, now that I'm thinking about that, how sad is it that if she's had attachment issues, has felt any distance or problems with her family, and then she's like, okay, I'm gonna marry into a family that's has none of the problems I had. Not only will I kind of feel envious and intimidated and other, and just like I'm around the thing that I never had. And then how do I fit into this? Right, it's like you're, you're, you're facing the success where your life has failed in a way.
Speaker 1:So now I feel bad, for I mean, I think, she's shooting herself in the foot in a multitude of ways. Um, because I feel bad for Mary, I mean, I think she's shooting herself in the foot in a multitude of ways, because I feel bad for Emma too, like I think this would suck. But yeah, I mean, mary's in a tough spot and it sounds like she doesn't necessarily have all the tools to navigate it totally effectively. And it's, I think. You know, when you marry into somebody where they're a progeny, you have to figure out, as the newcomer, how to honor the deceased and how to keep them alive in some way, even when it's uncomfortable for you. And that's what she seems to be failing to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what would be the appropriate way? I mean, I think I would feel it's one thing if I, if, as you were saying, with your situation, like you're coming in and marrying someone who, well, we don't know if you're marrying yet, wink, wink, you know, you're, you were deeply involved with someone who has a you know, who has a past like that. But then it's like you enter in a whole family and they're all grieving and you're the one, you're the one who's not grieving, you're the one who's like, taking your place. I would. I mean, I probably wouldn't leave or storm out or look upset, but I would feel really awkward if this whole family is like oh, do you remember when Aunt So-and-So used to do this? Oh gosh, this house used to look like this. You know, like I would feel like, all right, it's very clear that you guys missed the person I'm taking the place of, so great.
Speaker 1:Right and probably wish that I did not exist and that other person did. Yeah, and it's odd, you know, like it's you're coming in at the end of somebody's life and at the end of your own life, and so how much? How much do you kind of keep things as they are and just sort of try to enjoy each other, versus how much do you make your own life together? And it's just odd knowing that, like your first wife had 50 years with you and I'm going to get 10. I don't know what that would feel like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like watching the golden bachelorette or the golden bachelor.
Speaker 2:Oh my God I was. I was not going to watch the golden Bachelorette until you convinced me, and then I'm so glad I did, because that is the most heartwarming show, where it just you know, like it really was just interesting to watch the Golden Bachelorette versus the Bachelor or Bachelorette, because there's the young, the youngins, there's so much competition, and then there's like talk about the future and what they want and whether their wants are aligned. And then the golden bachelorette was a lot about processing what they've lost, like they all bonded because they were like we're all widowers and we're like what is it like to lose the person that you made your family with right, and then is it? Is it then going to be like you're now? Your new relationship is gonna be about keeping each other company while you grieve for the rest of your life. I mean, what does that look like? Right? Like are you just kind of, you know, keeping each other company while you remember?
Speaker 1:yeah it's sweet, but it it flies in the face of our, our young and kind of, you know, concept of love and romance how so are they creating something? New? Yeah, I think our concept of love and romance is like we are the one and like he loves me more than anyone, and you know yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:Jason did a good job for me, you know, I mean he doesn't make me feel like second choice. Um, you know, I I really think that he is like fully excited and in love and you know, and like he loved Heidi too. Um, but that's in the past and he's excited to have a future. But that's a tough.
Speaker 2:I mean that's a tough it's actually so much similar to the topics we were saying in our other episodes about like non-monogamy right. It's like we're kind of breaking down this, this uh kind of outdated idea that we're looking for the one right, the, the special one, and you know, you're just kind of kind of biding time until the special person, then you like live out your days with that person. It's like no, we are living way longer than we expect and there could be just different ones for different phases of your life. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And maybe for a family too. Yeah, there might not be the one. I mean when we say the one now, it's like who do we make our family with? But now there's blended families, there's multiple families, different stages of your life and what makes sense for different times of your life, like when we talk about dating in our 20s. We're like're like, oh, we dated the wrong man until we found the right man. It's like, no, we probably dated people who made sense for being in our 20s, who's now had totally different values and goals and characteristics than the version of us now. Um so and you know, thinking about it, if the uncle was with this, with his late wife since he was a kid, he never got to date. He never got to date his crazy like. You know that, like weird fling that the the ex that you shouldn't have right.
Speaker 2:Like maybe he's making his whoopsies now you know, someone who's exciting yeah, I mean, I remember when we were 20s and dating all people with all sorts of fun cluster b traits, toxic whatever. That wasn't even toxic in our day. It was just like, you know, the bad boys that everyone wanted. But but there is like an intensity and excitement and feeling alive with someone who brings drama right. There's a little bit of like ooh, someone's coming in and just controlling and telling me what to do and all that. You know. There's an intensity in that dynamic. That's fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I wonder how some of this stuff is getting communicated to Emma too. Like who's communicating? Like when Mary said you can't have lunch with your son anymore. Mm-hmm. Like who told her that? Because it seems strange if Mary did and it would also seem a bit grapeviny if the son did. So do we actually know how that conversation went down.
Speaker 2:No, I think that. I think it sounds like. It sounds like there's some of it that Emma has seen for herself, like some of the digs were towards her and her siblings, but it might be passed down also from her parents or, you know, like the extended family involved.
Speaker 1:But I just wonder if that conversation really went down that way, if it was like you can't have lunch with him anymore, this is inappropriate. Or if it was something like hey, like you, having lunch with him disrupts our yada, yada and who knows. I mean look, we know there's demonstrated immature behavior. You just can't huff when your predecessor is brought up in front of your predecessor's family.
Speaker 2:You just can't do that, unless it was like oh, remember when she was here, not like Mary sitting over there.
Speaker 1:You know, right, there's, there might be ways that they're bringing bringing her up, that's, we don't know what she's gone, yeah, um, and telling if she didn't tell him that he can't have lunch with his son, that's inappropriate, that's like that's mega bad. So I do, I'm sorry, sorry. No, no, you go.
Speaker 2:It's the dilemma that we therapists working with interpersonal problems always come across, where you're getting one view right and, to really understand who's quote, toxic. That's why we hate the word toxic in social media and stuff, because you're getting one side of the story and different perspectives are valid even though they might not mesh. So you're getting one side of the story, but I think what we are getting from the way Emma described it it's like the biggest pain is like the ripple effects across the family and how it really interferes with their grieving process, or even maybe lack of grieving process, of trying to preserve something that you know a family dynamic that isn't there anymore. It can't exist.
Speaker 1:In the same way, yeah, I know, I I think my mind was going to a similar place of. First of all, I may be over-correcting and trying too hard to see the hard to see Mary's point, because I am so aware of this in my own therapy sessions where it's like, oh, it'd be so easy to just bash this person, but I just don't know. And then I always think of my ex-fiance in therapy and how he's presented me and how convincing I'm sure that was. But yeah, I mean, I think part of this is how do you learn to accept that your family that has been stable for so long is suddenly changing and is never going to go back to normal and new people come in and upend things and that is really hard and it's a really hard adjustment and it would have been probably easier if there had been a period of time where Mary wasn't there and they got used to the new normal and kind of figured out what that was.
Speaker 1:But this one, I mean, it perhaps did rush the grieving process a little bit and now they don't know how to grieve. But the reality is, is it's changed? It's like I always go back to the time when my Christmases started changing, when my siblings were all getting older and getting partners and going off to their houses, or the partners were coming here to my house and I was like, wow, my family, my traditions, it's all changing and I don't have any control over it. And it feels like I should have control over it because I'm a member of this family and my family is the thing that gives me identity and tells me how to live and has shaped me and and when that changes, it's, it's really, it's really disturbing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we know that the if, like going into tips like what Emma and her family should do, yeah, I mean, it's step one. We, you know, step one's got to always be grieving, and that I mean even step before. That is accepting the new, the new normal, accepting the reality of what you've lost and what's here, right, so you go, okay, the closeness that we had, all the traditions we had, the vacations, the visits, the furniture they're not here anymore and just like, allow that to be extremely painful and then to be like, okay, well, because, if you're like I noticed this in my clients if they're trying their best to try to, if they're trying their best to try to MacGyver something back and duct tape it to look like what it used to be, it's, it's not going to work. You're just going to cause pain and struggle with yourself. So stop doing that and like, just sit and accept and just be like this is so sad and we, we just was miss our aunt so much.
Speaker 2:Um, and then say, okay, what was it what? What was so special about that? Right, like, maybe we can't have lunches every day, but like, what, what was so important about that? Was it that they had a dedicated time and space to connect. Is it that they went on vacations together and like the kids could play, like what was it that was so special, and then try to capture that in maybe a new way? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Easier said than done. I don't know the answers to all of this, but I think it's like that's the grieving process and traditions of like what did we love about that and how can that be possible in the circumstances we have now?
Speaker 1:I totally agree. There's a lot of elements here that we don't know about too. I mean, I wonder if there's concern here for the. I wonder if there's concern here for the uncle of like he seems to be with this woman who's taking over his brain. Is he okay? I don't know if it would be maybe a good idea to just have some conversations with him, take him out to lunch, if you're still allowed, uh, and just not be like initially, like hey, I'm concerned, but maybe like hey, how's it going with Mary? What does she bring to you? What do you love about her? What you know, so like really understanding, like what is it that this is doing for him? And you know, I've just. Then you can say like I've just noticed a couple things and I just wanted to hear what you think about them, what you think might be going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that now we're jumping into the tips, for how do you navigate when there's like a gatekeeper to your lunch, when someone comes in and puts up a gate? Number one we've always talked about this but don't polarize, don't sit that person down and be like we hate Mary, we all are against her. This is an intervention. An intervention, I mean you got to know that she sucks. That's that's going to polarize him. Right, he's there, he's going to leave, he's going to be.
Speaker 2:No, no other position than to defend her right. So lean the other way. Opposite action go, you know, maybe extend, as we're doing, like compassion and understanding for what you might be going through and how hard this might be. Maybe lean into that by trying to develop a relationship with her in a way that maybe breaks down her walls, like kind of get to the softer side.
Speaker 2:If there's any kind of cluster B traits, you know that they're just really insecure and they're terrified of feeling rejected and devalued. So I mean you don't want to reinforce the shitty behavior, but at least like getting underneath that and getting past all the defenses and really getting to know her and then being like hey, uncle, we, you know, we love that, you're happy Can, but I miss like one-on-one time with you. Can we hang out together and having like some time by himself? And if he brings up like I'm push over, be like what do you think right? Like kind of gently getting that alone time to connect with him by himself, but then also just to have a lifeline, just in case that it's really toxic, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. As for just surviving this, I mean, I don't know, it could be that. It could be that, yeah, getting to know Mary better is the answer here. She might just be acting from a place of total discomfort all the time. She's making comments that come across as critical and awkward, and maybe that's just like a I don't know how to behave with people that I'm not jiving with. You know, I don't know if she's trying to isolate the uncle, because otherwise she has to spend a whole bunch of time with people that don't like her and that she, she, doesn't feel comfortable around. So I don't know. I mean, maybe just getting to know her better would be a key, but she also might not make herself available to be known, and in that case it really is more of just like well, how do we navigate around this folder? And I think, there you're, just we're back to acceptance and I don't know figuring out how to spend more time with other family members.
Speaker 2:I don't know that. There's an amazing answer we know, just with techniques of dealing with people with cluster B, like narcissistic or BPD traits. That technique called gray rocking we've described before, where, if you feel like they're baiting you with devaluing or critical comments like, oh, look at you, or just something this little dig of, when you like, oh, look at you. Or you know just something that this little dig of you know, when you feel like they're looking down at you and you feel like you feel that your defensive hackles coming up, right, you're just like, oh no, I'm better than you, are Also bad, right, Like if you don't get wrapped up in the power play that's being brought up, right, there's like this strong, like fight and competition, that kind of can come up when you feel that, or justifying or defending yourself.
Speaker 2:But just don't engage with that, because that's where their comfort zone is, just just gray rock, which means just not giving much, like detaching emotionally and not giving much back. Right, you don't have to like talk back or give a comeback, just be like, if they make a comment about the way you look, like, oh, all right yeah what else?
Speaker 2:like changing the subject, kind of like letting it slide off you, acting like it doesn't bother you, even if it might. Um, that might be in the early stages. Maybe in the later stages, when you get to know each other well and get to know mary a little bit better, at least, my technique is to point out those things, but like in a joking manner, like ouch, that hurt, or you know, just you know just like oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I did see one of our one of our peers in grad school. Like we were talking to someone who was just like saying outlandish things, just just bragging and saying all sorts of crazy stuff, and we all kind of rolled our eyes because this person is just a weirdo and just says weird things in public places and settings and he just smiled he's such a good therapist he just smiled and he was like wow, that was such a weird thing to say and he was just so blunt and it just disarmedarm that person and we were all laughing, but it was like a laugh with because he wasn't he, he will almost have this tone of like curiosity, like what a weird thing to say, and then so we were all in on it, right, and it just it's.
Speaker 2:That's a very hard nuance to get like a a laughing and pointing out their behavior in a way that's still like compassionate, like a laughing and pointing out their behavior in a way that's still like compassionate and um, but I think that comes with time and a little bit of trust and a little bit of comfort with each other.
Speaker 2:Um, hard to do, really hard to do. Yeah, I mean, there could also be like a conversation right With that person and saying, uh, you know, validate, validate, validate Also that comment you made I've really hurt my feelings or maybe uncomfortable. Or you know, when we're talking about our aunt and you walked away like I don't know how to navigate that, because we want to talk about her, but we can see that it makes you uncomfortable, what do you think we should do? How do you feel when, when she's brought up right, like having that honest? How do you feel when?
Speaker 2:when she's brought up right like having that honest conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really hard to. I know I'm caught between first talking to the uncle about that, like, hey, have you noticed that Mary kind of doesn't like being around when we bring up Her aunt? You know, what do you think about that? Because it's it's hurtful to us and we don't know what to do about it. But it could also be a good strategy to say, hey, mary, we don't know what to do about it, but it could also be a good strategy to say, hey, mary, like I noticed that when we talk about you, know our aunt, that you kind of leave the room.
Speaker 1:I was wondering what that's like for you and just going there for going for the curiosity first, and then kind of bring it back to like, oh, you know, that makes a lot of sense. I guess what's tough for us is that we're still grieving her and for us she's all around and we're so happy you're here too, but she's here. She's still here for us too, and it's really hard to not be able to talk about her and wondering if there's any way it could be more comfortable. You know something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we're talking about just like making peace offerings instead of, you know, yeah, the stonewall or the intervention approach, or the cutting out or ostracizing, because that just makes it worse. Right, that just makes it. That just goes into the direction that they don't want, which is more division in the family.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I don't know. I also don't want to leave them on a note where we just empathized with her aunt, for with her step aunt the whole time and then, you know, didn't give her enough because it it. I would hate, I would hate this. Um, I think what's tough is that she, this woman, hasn't done anything so glaringly unforgivable that it's time for like a let's kick her out of the family or like isolate from her. Yet but clearly, if her whole family is feeling this way, there's something up. You know, like this isn't, this isn't emma's immaturity, or just like not being able to see what's going on because she's so grief stricken. I mean, I think there's a whole mess of things, but this is really tough and clearly the whole family has feelings about it. I do wonder if they're pumping each other up a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that might be.
Speaker 1:I know my family can do that, you know. I mean we're having a conversation about, like, how to bring Mary in and there might be a separate conversation of what if that's impossible what if that's impossible?
Speaker 2:what if Mary will just never get along with the family? Um, yeah, yeah, it's like. What, if you like, how do you just live with someone with cluster b traits and not don't have this magic healing fantasy where you have a conversation and you all cry and hug and suddenly you're, you're, you're great and understand that she might be just like complicating and maybe blocking some grieving processes. So like, don't let that happen, like grieve together, like talk about it and recognize that things have changed. And if the main goal and value is family closeness, then what does that look like now with her? It might look like just ignoring her, right, her. It might look like just ignoring her, right, it might just be like smiling and laughing and making fun of her, but in a compassionate way, right?
Speaker 2:I think the the one do not do is make her the enemy because they don't anyone cluster B traits, they don't respond well to that. It doesn't take down the defenses, it makes it worse. Then the uncle's in a really tough position, literally between rock and a hard place. Everyone has to choose sides and it's going to polarize him even further to defend her and so just any kind of like pointing and, you know, ostracizingizing her, it's just going to make it worse.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, do anything but that and probably try to establish some time that you can have with him regularly, even just to check in on him. I mean, if she is claus derby and we don't know, it's going to be tough for him eventually right, right, let him have his crazy ex moment and then make sure he's a good prenup.
Speaker 2:I don't know, yeah Well that ship has probably sailed.
Speaker 1:I guess you can still revise your prenup after marriage. But it's interesting because I just think that this question changes depending on who the family member is. I mean, it changes so much. If she's talking about her mom dying and being replaced, that might be a different episode. If this was her brother getting married, another different episode. But I like this element. I like that it's an older kind of patriarch. What do you do there? I don't know, Maybe there will be other episodes we do where it's other family members, but I think that's all for now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but thank you to Emma. Thank you so much for submitting that we welcome anyone else to do the same. We love, we love hearing stories and we love hearing from you. So, please send this message, absolutely.
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