A Little Help For Our Friends

Arrested Development: The Generational Trauma of Emotionally Immature Parents

• Jacqueline Trumbull and Kibby McMahon • Season 5 • Episode 133

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Are your parents bad at dealing with difficult emotions? Do they fall apart, ignore, criticize or withdraw when you need them the most? Emotional immaturity in parents causes profound ripple effects through generations, creating patterns many of us don't recognize until we're deep into adulthood. Based on Dr. Lindsay Gibson's model of emotional immaturity, we describe the four distinct types of emotionally immature parents —emotional, driven, passive, and rejecting—and how each type uniquely shapes their children's development.

We explore why this topic has exploded in popularity, tracing it back to historical contexts that shaped how each generation views parenting. When survival is the primary goal, emotional complexity takes a back seat, creating generations of parents who never developed the skills to handle their own emotions, let alone support their children's emotional growth.

When children's own personal growth is stunted by a dysfunctional family,  they adopt specific roles as survival mechanisms that often persist into adulthood, limiting their full expression and causing recurring relationship challenges.

Whether you're struggling with an emotionally immature parent or recognizing these patterns in yourself as a parent, we suggest a path toward healing. This path includes awareness, grieving what you didn't receive, exploring yourself beyond your family role, and developing boundaries based on mutual respect rather than obligation.

If you're ready to break free from toxic dynamics with immature parents and discover your authentic self outside of these roles, book a free call with Dr. Kibby to learn how she can guide you through your healing journey.

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Jacqueline Trumbull:

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends the podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hello, so today we are going to build on our topic from last week, which was immaturity, but this time we are kicking it over to Kibby's expertise and really a huge KulaMind of , which is emotionally immature parents and the effects of that on kids and what to do if that's your situation. So I'm just going to kick it right over to Kibby KulaMind us what can do for people with emotionally immature parents.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Lots of stuff. So this has gotten so popular because it's like a mixture of narcissistic parents and emotional toxicity. It's like people are just realizing that their parents didn't give them the emotional support that they needed and that might've been a range from like their parents were neglectful and just like didn't give them the support to like emotionally abusive. So a lot of you have reached out saying that you struggle with that and you're trying to make sense of that as adults, trying to navigate relationships and having your own kids, but also realizing how emotionally stunted your parents were. KulaMind, this is exactly what we do. We're building a community for people who struggle with this, with emotionally immature parents.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And also, if you need support, like if you need one-on-one direct coaching and help with skills with this, with navigating your relationship with emotionally immature anybody in your life, an emotionally immature loved one it could be your parent, it could be a sibling. You might recognize it as saying you have someone in your life who's toxic and you need to set boundaries with them or you need to be able to like step away and get some space without feeling a lot of guilt or managing their emotional explosions. That is all what we do and that's all what we help with. So if you just want to talk to me and see you know if we're a good fit for what you need, check us out on KulaMind. com, k-u-l-a-m-i-n-d. com, and also you could book a call with me for free in the link in the show notes.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Perfect, okay. So where should we start? Should we talk about, like, what emotional immaturity in parents looks like?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, I think piggybacking off of what we were talking about last time, which is that emotion dysregulation like people having trouble managing their emotions in healthy ways it's basically emotional immaturity has got a lot of tension in romantic relationships, as we talked about, and friendships, but also it's extra damaging in parents. So I mean just starting there like emotional immaturity in parents can be really really damaging to the whole family.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean, the problem is like if, when you're a little kid and you're developing and you're met with emotional immaturity, how are you even supposed to emotionally develop? Because everything that's being modeled for you is, I'm not not everything, but like a lot. You know, a lot of it is damaging or chaotic, and so I give big kudos to kids who are able to kind of overcome this. Kudos to kids who were able to kind of overcome this. Yeah, survive it really.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I think we talked about this in the narcissistic parents episode and I think emotional immaturity is a little bit less judgmental. I'm only starting to really understand this emotional immaturity in parents becoming a parent myself, because now I'm really face to face with what immaturity actually is right it's having these intense emotions and really not knowing what to do about it, and it's awful for everyone involved. The difference is that kids actually learn and they actually grow up hopefully and learn regulation skills. So that's really the difference there.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

But well, and they don't have the same kind of power over you as a parent does. Yeah, well, I mean, in some ways you can't leave them, you have to do everything they say, just kidding kind of it's it's.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

it's interesting because I was like, why is narcissistic parents or emotional immaturity so popular these days on Google searches, on social media? Like it's just like such a popular thing to talk about. And the way I'm wrapping my head around it is that there's it's like our generation have like the boomer generation as parents, right, and they had their parents, they were raised by their parents, and I think that the generation above the boomers, like our grandparents, were at war, you know. So they were like really traumatized. They either weren't there dead, saw horrible things, like it's just like a, it was like a global trauma. So survival was the main goal right, it was just.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Not only that, but they grew up in the depression. And, like you know, all my grandparents grew up in the depression and then lived through World War II and fought in World War II.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So yeah, we really have not much. I mean, we do have something to complain about, but if you really think about that, oh that yeah, and it's just like when you, when you get to a place where survival is the most important thing, there's only a few emotions and a few needs that you have to attend to. Right, you just, you just get a job, you earn a living, you have kids, you protect them, you make sure there's a roof over their head, like, like, that's, that's it. And so my impression is that boomer generation learned what you do to be successful and happy is get a job, a good, steady career, keep moving up. Um, get a family, 2.5 kids and a picket fence. Um, go to good school, get prestigious things like good marks, and then that's it right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And although that generation, a parent's generation, didn't get their emotional needs met, the same way they didn't get to be listened to and empathized with and taught to understand what they're feeling. It's like buck up, you can do it, just work harder. You know, don't cry, I'll give you something to cry about. Like that's literally like a grand, like a grandparents thing they used to say like you know, I'll give you something to cry about. So then you just have, like this ripple effects of this emotional trauma coming down to us. And so now we're like, hey, there's more to life than just getting into a good college and getting a high paying job. We could get those things, but we might be horribly depressed. And now what? So now we want to, now we're interested in mental health, now we're interested in feeling heard and seen and emotionally supported right. So there's a real big cultural shift. That's not anyone else's fault, but I think that our generation is really feeling the effects of having immature parents.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean, I just think at like. At any previous point in history, life was like loads harder than it is today. And this is the Benjamin. Oh my God, how am I phrasing the name of our founding father, benjamin Franklin? You know, I am a statesman, so that my son can be a doctor and then his son can be an artist. Just you know? Something like that.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

And so there's this sense that we're moving towards our self-actualization state. Of course, the interesting thing is that it's unclear if if we are moving towards that state or if we're moving into like kind of a coddled state which sort of passes self-actualization by and veers into like other dangerous territory. But the point is like it feels like parenting is supposed to be kind of reaching this actualized state like parents have the well, not all parents, but a lot of parents have like much easier lives than they did in the past, just because of technology, um, and having more money and lower child mortality, lower everybody mortality, higher literacy, more skills, um and so. But that has happened at such an like an astronomically fast rate that the parenting styles of our parents are going to be so different from the parenting styles of us and so different from their parents. So I just I just think there's a lot that we can't understand about, like where our parents were coming from and vice versa.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's just it. It seems a little bit more clear that our generation and lower, like Gen Z, we care a little bit more about the emotional health right, Mental health is getting more popular and there's just more awareness around happiness and being happy whatever that means you kind of see it with our choices in romantic relationships. We're a little bit more interested, at least vocally, looking for a partner who respects you and cares about you and makes you feel loved and everything like that, and it's a little bit less like I don't care, I just want to find a guy with a good job. I don't care if he emotionally abuses me. Right, that's a little. At least we don't say that out loud anymore, so you're talking about four stages.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Um there, um, to really understand emotional immaturity without just pure judgment. I really like Dr Lindsay Gibson's Emotional Immaturity book. Let me look at the actual title of the name. Okay, so the book is called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. It used to be really popular and then it's gotten way more popular now as like a resurgence, and the model is really nice. It's really clean. I think the book is really easy to read, relatable. It feels like it has some like evidence base without getting too in the weeds of like either popsicology. Anyway, it's a very good book but the model breaks down four different types of emotionally immature parents. So the four are the emotional parent, the driven parent, the passive and the rejecting Right. The passive and the rejecting right um, the emotional parent is kind of what you, what it sounds like, almost kind of a bpd flare, completely dominated by emotions, um, self-absorbed, that they need to be coddled. Um, they're kind of dependent on other people, very childlike and unstable, and then if someone doesn't parent them or rescue them, then they feel like they're being abandoned.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

So that seems like pretty BPD to me. Yeah, I mean this feels like the kind of construct we've been talking a lot about on this podcast and yeah, it certainly takes its toll, because then the kid had to always defer to the parents emotions yeah, instead of having like a instead of having their parent be like a container for them and you know, being kind of solid and dependable yeah, yeah, I think this is, this one is interesting.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I've gotten we've gotten a couple people uh reaching out to cool a mind with these, this emotional type of parent and it's there's it?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

people feel so torn about it because, um, the emotional parent has this like childlike quality. They they're like they're the fun parent, they like they're the one that plays games and is silly and is unfiltered. A lot of people say, like they have, my mom has no filter, my dad has no filter to describe the emotional parent. So they're like fun and charming in that like childlike way. But then it's like that chaos, that kind of emotional chaos of a toddler, right, it's just like suddenly they snap and suddenly they fly off the handle and you see that the kids of these kind of parents becoming really parentified. They were really responsible. They really almost have to take the disciplinarian role right. They have to keep the the disciplinarian role right. They have to like keep things in, in control.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Um, I remember having to like escort my parent out of like concerts and public. Oh, my god, I was just thinking about like. There was this one horrible time when we went to an elton john concert. Uh, this is probably the most like. It just popped in my head. We went to an Elton John concert and this person my parents stood up and screamed at Elton John while he was giving a speech about his AIDS charity. I basically had to grab them and pull them down to the seat so we wouldn't get kicked out. It was just like. It's like it's what I would do with a toddler, right. It's just like sit down, you know, stop it, get yourself under control, right? And yeah, as you're saying, like, the power dynamic of this childlike figure having the power over you is especially terrifying.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean not not knowing if you can rely on your parent to keep you safe is really scary. Having to forfeit your own childhood in many ways in order to keep both you and your parents safe is that's a huge sacrifice. And I, and then I think on top of this, like I know, one thing I experienced just in in people with this personality type is like you have the anger and the frustration, but you also have a lot of guilt because you are put in the caretaker role, and when you are the caretaker of somebody else who is childlike, then it's hard not to feel a mothering kind of relationship with them and then it's so hard to pull away or to set boundaries or limits because you're like, oh, what can? How can I just like, hurt this little kid?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

yeah, yeah, it's like, oh, they're, they're really destructive and they actually have hurt me, or I'm embarrassed, whatever. But like they they mean well, or they didn't mean it, or they don't know what they're doing, they can't control it, they can't help it, right? It is this like this helplessness in them that really pulls at your heartstrings and makes that yeah, that that torn feeling of like feeling like you really want to set boundaries and, just like you know, step away, but also feeling really, really bad about it. So, yeah, this is a hard presentation. It's really really tricky and it's interesting too. I feel like the emotional parents that I've heard of do really well with their own kids at younger ages. So they might really enjoy having a baby or a young kid because they're actually like well matched. But when the kid starts to individuate, grow up, become their own person, then that emotional parents really struggles because not only is the emotional development outstripping theirs, but they feel less and less like they can relate to their child.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean I would think that raising a child if that's your emotional development would be difficult, because I mean, I can see the argument for like, yeah, we're more similar in some ways when we're two, when the baby's two, but a two-year-old does not give a shit about your feelings. So it's interesting thinking about, like, how they would handle that and maybe they would have the wherewithal to say, well, that's because they're two and maybe that's why, as they get older, it's like, oh, you actually have kind of a brain and personality that I that has moral reasoning and that therefore I'm more capable of being hurt by but yeah, I don't know how you can handle a kid saying I hate you mommy, when you don't have they cannot yep no, you're really actually like, you're making me realize something, that it's like the blind leading the blind.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And I, when, when, when jackson, my son, loses, loses it, I go to a place that's like hyper regulated, like even a little bit too much, like I'm like both Alex and I will just get really calm and be like it's okay, it's okay, we're here, calm down, like we're really like Ooh, we're gonna Um. But I didn't remember that when I was a kid. I maybe, like my memories probably start around five or six, so it's hard to remember what happens when I was a baby, but I remember getting upset or tantruming and then my parent would also tantrum, like I have memories of us co tantruming together, right, Like like.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Oh fine, you're going to do this. Then I'm leaving, right, like so, and Dr Becky um, it's like, call it child psychologist who's, like you know, an influencer psychologist. She had a really nice metaphor for this. It's kind of like if you're on an airplane and you don't know how to fly airplanes or how they work and you trust the pilot to be that person, and then you feel turbulence and you go, oh my God, we're like we're going to fall.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Usually the pilot gets on the. It's like it's okay, it's North wind, that's coming from the blah, blah, blah. But if they go, oh my God, we're going to die, right, and everyone gets upset. It's like you want that parent to be the one who is at least I don't want to say regulated, like not have emotions, but regulated in the sense that they're not scared and they're still in control. They're still like wise mind or the prefrontal cortex online that everyone could be upset, but like, as a parent, I got this, I got you, you're not in danger, you know. Like this is a feeling, it will pass, we're going to be okay, and the emotional parent can't do that.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yikes, that is such a good metaphor.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Okay.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Driven All right, yes, yes, the driven parent. So this, the driven parents, interesting, it's like. It's kind of what you imagine, really goal oriented. This feels a little bit like the critical, almost like the the classic narcissistic parent. Their success and prestige reflects on them, right, so you're controlling very like, almost like be perfect in society. That's what I'm interpreting it, but it's very much like achieve, achieve things interpreting it, but it's very much like achieve, achieve things. And what I find interesting is that we talk a lot of people have talked about, oh, I think my parent is narcissistic. But if you really look into the different kinds of narcissistic parents, there's that like emotional parent, who's self-absorbed, right, like my needs are more important, oh my God. But then there's the other kind of parent narcissistic parent, who's self-absorbed but is like I care about meeting standards, right, and I feel like those get mixed up a lot because they are. But there's actually these different subtypes. That is interesting.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Why is this considered emotional immaturity? For the parent to be really achievement oriented?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

That's really an interesting question. I think that it's to the exclusion of the other parts of the healthy emotional behaviors. Right Like it's, so it's okay. All of these are okay to be right to be like passive, you know, like to be emotional is not a bad thing. But if it's like a dominant, if it's a dominant parenting quality, that that is what all you have, instead of actually seeing the kid and responding to their needs and emotions, and all that matters is goal, getting a goal, then that's the immature part.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean, I see, I certainly see how it's a problem. I think I'm trying to understand it as like emotionally immature. I mean I suppose if you are, if everything is sort of sacrificed to to meet, um, everything is sacrificed at the altar of achievement, then there's a kind of uh like undeveloped, or um, like yeah, like an undeveloped sense of like, yeah, like an undeveloped sense of life, success, components of happiness like what I mean it's kind of like using achievement as a proxy for happiness yeah, for happiness, or connection or anything, or anything else without seeing the pitfalls of that and the limitations of that, I guess yeah, going back on what we said last time in our last episode emotionally immaturity.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Emotional immaturity is a lot about one thing. It's a lot about not ignoring complexity and nuance and being really simplistic and being like this is all good and this is all bad, you're an enemy, you're, this is the victim, I'm good, I'm good, right, and so there's a lot of in in making these simple judgment, emotional judgments. It's wiping out a lot of the humanity and the and the like personhood of the kid yeah, I suppose it also puts the.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

It's like it's sort of an external locus of control, like if I achieve, or if my kid achieves, then we'll be safe, we'll have the status we need to survive like. There's not much of an internal sense of like I can accept it's, it's we must achieve in order to be respected, admired, and then like safe in the social world. And there's there's not much of like. No, we can be safe because we can, you know, regulate and understand each other and understand ourselves and and kind of navigate through this world.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Because we have internal tools, and I think also this is more of a psychodynamic term, but I think there's like this narcissistic extension of yourself. I think that's really the problem, right, wanting your kid to be successful or whatever you know, that's that's one thing, but to be like your success reflects on me and I'm going to make you successful and I'm going to expect you to be successful in this very particular way. It's just another version of ignoring that kid's emotional life. Right, whether I'm freaking out and I'm very emotional, or if I'm like you must do well on this one thing you must get into the college that I went to, right, it's still like me, me, me, me, me.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And here's like the simple way that I see it I'm just completely ignore you as a whole human being with different needs, right, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's a driven parent. Um, then there's the passive parent. I feel like this is really interesting. This is one that's more avoidant of conflict, almost going to look like the nice parent, but, um, and I feel like this is the kind of parent who tends to enable another, more abusive parent, right, the one who's just like, doesn't see problems, let's just be happy. Not there, maybe, physically not there, right, it's just like ignores the kid's emotional life by ignoring it and sometimes even like pleasantly so.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, it's interesting. I was like I was thinking about the menendez brothers when you're talking about this and oh yeah, people are always like, why did they shoot kitty menendez? Um, but sometimes that passivity can do almost as much damage as abuse, because you're looking to this person to protect you and care enough to protect you and they're just not there and they're like allowing you know, allowing things to happen. I mean, I think in a way less extreme version, this might be the parent who doesn't regulate bedtime, you know, who doesn't't discipline, who just sort of like lets things unfold so that the kid will not be mad at them or not object.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

And the problem is then the kid grows up without structure and I remember once I had a friend who had a daughter, but the daughter lived like mostly with her mom and the daughter's 13 at the time. And I had this conversation with her because my friend who was her father it was very fun, he was very permissive and she said to me she's like I wish he were less permissive, like I wish he um, I don't remember what the example exactly was, but I had never heard a kid, and especially a teen, like want more structure from their parents like want discipline, um, but yeah, she had picked up on that, like because you know that your parent uh cares and is trying when they contain you what did that?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

what did that person say like what kind of active, active parenting do they want?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I think she wanted regulated meal times and bedtime and like rules where it wasn't just like hey, you're at dad's house, time to party, like let's have fun and you know like maybe homework help, um, just some sort of structure to her day. Like come home from school, do homework help from dad, like he gets food ready, what about a ton?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

kind of reminds me of um, like there's just like a string of 90s movies that featured like this kind of parent, like liar, liar, like jim carrey and mrs doubtfire, like all you know. All these characters were like oh, they're like good, well-meaning dads and the mom is like this, you know, like ball and chain, like disciplinarian, but when, but when I watch those movies now, I'm like dude, you can't have like a zoo, come to your house. As for the birthday party and having, there's like there's one scene in that, in Mrs Doubtfire, where like the symbol of that things have gone awry and there's not good parenting is like there's one kid at that party, there's like animals everywhere in the house and there's a kid on the table like dancing and that's a sign of like, whoa, like.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

It must be enormously frustrating for the other parent too to have to be the unfun one. Yeah, I mean, who wants to be the disciplinarian, you know?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

yeah, I know, it's just so much easier to walk. Walk away like this is just like pure avoidance, um, or just like, oh, be happy. That's also just as emotionally damaging. So just be happy, it's fine oh your dad means.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

well, isn't about just having some, some creature in your house that just likes you all the time and is fun to play with Like you have to? You have to invest in the work to help that child grow up effectively.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Um, this one is just you know what. I guess I'm a little confused because, um, this feels like the passive parent, but it's a little bit like. It's a little bit it feels a little bit more bitter, like the rejecting, the rejecting parents, like I don't want to be close to anyone, I want to be alone. Um, everyone's getting in my way, everyone's like too chaotic, messy and you have to listen to me, right, it's just kind of like family. That's kind of how I picture the rejecting parent, but it does kind of feel like a passive parent, but I guess a passive parent has a little bit more room to be pleasant.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, but the passive parent can be fun, right? I mean yeah. But, the rejecting parent is rejecting the child in some way. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

It's almost just like push away. It's like not only just avoidance, but it's like pushing away. No, thank you.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Mm-hmm push away. It's like not only just avoidance, but it's like pushing away. No, thank you. And the example in the training that I did on this, the example of the rejecting parent is Nancy, who is Tony Soprano's mom and the Sopranos. Who's just like this old lady, who's just like grumpy, who's just like like. Who's just like this old lady, who's just like grumpy, who's just like, like, like grumpy, like the grumpy parent that would suck to grow up with.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, I'd take passion driven any day over someone who seems like they have no interest in me yeah, yeah, but at least, at least with a direct rejecting parent, you could kind of do what you want right? Like if they don direct rejecting parent, you could kind of do what you want right. Like if they don't care about you, you could kind of do whatever you want, whereas the driven parent wants to control you. They really care about what you do. They want to know who you're dating. They want to know where. Like, what job did you get? You know, like they they're more. They're more meddlesome than the rejecting and passive parent, wholesome than the rejecting a passive parent.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, I'm trying to figure out what my dad had. He was pretty neglected by his parents and kind of hated his mother growing up and his mom would do things like sunbathe nude in the backyard and have sex with other men in the house and my dad would like see it. What? Yeah, Not so yeah, so my dad was just. My dad grew up in Bermuda and he was just always like outside playing, doing his own thing, and now he's not in touch at all with his in any of his emotions. So, um, he wasn't helped to emotionally or socially develop at all. Um, but I don't know if there was a quality to his parents that was just like you know, get away, go away, or if they just didn't give a fuck.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, maybe just like passive or neglectful. I mean, I guess it's hard to tell what people are unless you see what these parents do. When the child has a need, when the child is crying or needs some support, what does a parent do? Do they walk away? Do they say it's okay, be happy. Or do they freak out? Or do they say it's okay, you just got to work harder and get you know? Like, what do they do in response to that emotion, besides for validating and being there with that emotion?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Right, yeah, I just don't think they were there for him.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I don't get a sense that they ever helped him through an emotional experience.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, maybe that's not true, but he came home from boarding school one day and his father drove him to a different house and said hey, this is your step mom and your three-year-old sister just hadn't told him for three years oh my god, oh my god, what what?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I've heard of the story, but it is so crazy when you say it. How did he react in that moment?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I divorced your mom. We're done. My dad doesn't remember minding. I mean, this is the thing. There's something, there's a disconnect. He doesn't remember.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

He said I don't mind or he didn't mention how he responded oh no, I've asked.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I was like, are you upset um? And he's like, no, I don't think so, like how the hell could, because he didn't like his mother. So I see, I guess he was just like cool, it's like an improvement. I would do this too, yeah that's so funny.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, oh, poor guy, your dad's lovely too. It's sometimes when you talk about like why, why are you in parts of your family, like you know, most stoical, but actually, like I find you guys really warm. It's just like you don't like collapse into distress. Yeah, so you're just, like you know, non-emotional in the negative way.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

My mom's emotional. I mean I am emotional, it's just usually in response to like personal distress versus like watching movies and crying. But I did cry and drinking.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

But yeah, my dad is emotional in a way he just can't.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I don't think he has any idea what to do with other people's emotions. Probably has. Has any any idea what to do with other people's emotions? Probably has. Nobody had any idea what to do with his, so he was just like uh, I guess I'll just go to the beach and hunt crabs or whatever if I'm feeling sad hey, I mean, that's really what we would tell our clients too, like, if you can go to the beach and hunt for crabs, do it like.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

That sounds great. But again, I get what you mean. What would? How do you respond when you were upset or when when your siblings were upset?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, I remember him when I was really young like holding me and crying holding me and like patting my back a couple times, but I don't think he would know what to say. I would always go to my mom Like I don't feel like anything was missing from my childhood or emotional development because I had my mom, um, and she was quite validating, um, but yeah, and then my brothers probably just made fun of me.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Cool, yeah, that's what brothers do how do you work through your emotions these days?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

well, I mean I often vent to friends. I mean I'll certainly cry it out if there's something to cry out. But I do a lot of ruminating at friends. I mean I try I try to keep that curtailed enough so that my friends won't be driven insane. Um, but I don't know.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean I feel like for most like low level, normal stuff, I mean I use like pretty healthy coping skills. I mean I'm a huge cognitive restructure, like I'm reframing. I reframe shit constantly in my head. I think about like every single angle, like is this personal? Is it not personal? It's probably not. I try to not catastrophize or things like that. So I guess that's kind of like my first response, um, but I am. I mean, it's just like a lot of things I'm able to just kind of say. You know what. I'm not going to think about that right now. It's not going to be helpful, but obviously, like the more intense the thing is, the more I'm likely to be like Kimmy, listen to me, talk about the same thing 800 times and you're very good at being like how do you feel about that? Again, what other feelings?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

are the same ones, okay tell me the same ones like okay, no, you evolve like I think, that's why I?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

ask periodically because, like, when you feel something like I could see that you've worked, you're working through it, because, like, I'll ask you the next day like how are you doing with that? And you'll, you'll be like same, but then you'll have like another insight into it. So you do use your brain a lot when it comes to emotions.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Oh for sure, yeah yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's really interesting how. So thinking about like what? How does it impact kids? Like what happens to kids with emotionally immature parents? Um, and I'm sure there's not just four ways that these parents are immature, but I think it's like the. The idea is like they can't handle emotional distress, uncomfortable emotions, and they avoid it in different ways and they ignore the full range of emotions or just like I'm going to shut off and just like not even engage in certain ones.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And so often in the book, in the book of the about the immature, emotionally immature parents, it talks a lot about how kids do whatever they can to survive this Right, and so naturally they fall into different roles. That, and they call it the role self. They fall into different roles that maintain the family dynamic, whether it's to satisfy their own needs or to make their parents happy. They like adopt a certain um role in the family, and that that ranges. That ranges too, but there's these. It could be like the, the golden child who's parentified right, the one who gets all the A's and is so responsible, takes care of the whole house, like I even you know if I'm thinking about a lot of families that I've worked with, who are patients that I've worked with, who have like, really like, abusive parents or really emotional parents.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

There's something about a sibling or or them themselves taking on the, the parent role, like they. They they're ones who took them to school, to the other siblings to school, or they are the ones who calm down the parents so that you know they wouldn't blow things up Right. So there's there's sometimes like the fixers, um, or there's a scapegoat, uh, where the scapegoat is the one who takes all the blame, right, and I feel like there's different scapegoats. There's there's a scapegoat of like they're the bad child. That, basically, is like blamed for all the bad stuff. But there's also the scapegoat of like this is the identified patient, um, it's interesting with family, family therapy, I've learned that when there is one kid in the family, that's the sick one, we gotta, we're here to fix this kid. It's usually not just the kid, it's usually the system that they're just pointing to this one as the one to blame. So that's so sad, isn't it?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Well, yeah, I mean, but that's why like I mean. That's why like when you like, oh my God, what am I trying to say? That's why, like when you wouldn't like, oh my god, what am I trying to say? Child psychology is usually working with parents or like family therapy, so that it's not just like, okay, this kid is like uniquely fucked, it's like what is what is happening in this system?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

that is, but that's not always to say that like the family is to blame for a kid being having mental health problems no, but it happens a lot with dysfunctional families right where um one one figure is going to hold all the all the blame. Um, in making sense of my own childhood, I was like talking to my therapist a lot and thinking and talking to some of my childhood friends about this and I I I see this coming up. I mean this is kind of the. The tricky part of this, like generational trauma, of emotional um immaturity, is that I am getting more in contact with um the the things that I'm working through through my parenting, and I'm terrified of my kid being the bad child. And I didn't, I didn't understand it at first, but I got a call from our preschool teacher and every time I got to get a call from the school, I'm terrified. And I'm terrified because I'm scared of them saying you know, jackson did this and this and this. He's a bad kid. Like you know, you have to fix it. He's acting out and and I was just like obsessed with that. Like every time I get a call and Alex is always like what are you talking about? Like it's going to be funny, he's a great kid, what's what's wrong? And I'm like why am I so scared of that? I'm like I think I really did adopt a scapegoat in some ways like a scapegoat role.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

There's a little golden childish, because I also like navigated through things by being like academically focused, but I do see myself as like the bad one, the rebellious one. I do see myself as like the bad one, the rebellious one, and actually sometimes when I get validation and like approval from systems or something, I feel like uncomfortable. And yeah, I just realized, and my childhood friend told me, that I was constantly trying to do the right thing but I was always seen as the bad kid by my parents, like they said. I'll show you the text message. She was like you know, you were always called like disobedient, too stubborn, too forceful, too much in some way, and I kept trying to be better. I just kept trying to be like a good kid and doing all the right things. I still got yelled at and I think I carried that until now Like damn worried that I'm going to pass it to my kid.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Was that from both parents?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I think I passively felt that from my dad because he got this new family and this family, in comparison, seems so good, like they would just sit and read together. There's no conflict, those kids are great, they're like lovely, there's a lovely family, and I'm like this storm right coming in, fighting with my mom, um, and having and like literally getting kicked out of my mom's house and having to live there, right. So I was like I was like the black sheep by proxy. I don't think that actually, a couple times my dad told me I was a bad kid, but I think later on he still respected my rebelliousness, um, so he he actually like didn't see those qualities as bad.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

But you're so set up. I mean, I know how, like, how are you supposed to be in your dad's family when you're dealing with so much chaos at home?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I don't know. I felt really bad because I felt like I was bringing the black cloud, which I was told many times that I was. That I and I was. I like I would have a fight with my mom and I would go over to my dad's house and my mom would call and there'd be screaming, you know, there I would just bring this, you know, emotional chaos over there. And so there's there was this feeling of like you know, kibbe and her mom, you, you know, this is going on now. So I definitely felt like I'm the bad, I bring badness to this world.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

It's just so obvious in listening to the story that you don't bring the badness. It was the person who was then pursuing you, kicking you out and then pursuing you.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

the person who was then pursuing you, kicking you out and then pursuing you. Yeah, now I know that, as a 39-year-old, having my own kids and getting a PhD in clinical psychology, now I know that maybe I wasn't all bad, maybe.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I contributed to the badness, but I didn't make it Such a bummer. I mean, I feel like most people, if they at least saw how you turned out I haven't known you for your whole life would be like, yeah, dream daughter I was a nightmare.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I really was. I really was. I tantrumed. When I was a teen, my boyfriend and I would have screaming fights on the street where I'd run sobbing. I did that at age 23. We'll see if we all think that I thought were abnormal, but yeah, I mean, I think I held that for a while, being the scapegoat, and I think that that's what helped me. Sometimes, when it comes to doing DBT or being screamed at or something like that, I'm like yeah, I deserve this, it's fine, I'm used to this, I'm used to being screamed at or something like that, I'm like, yeah, I deserve this, it's fine.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Like, I'm used to this, I'm used to being yelled at um, it's, it's all right I know I feel like this I feel like this podcast has become like kibbe realizes levels of emotional abuse, but yeah, it's weird why I'm so drawn to this topic what was your childhood like?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

I was like, well, they wanted me to be thin, but otherwise it's pretty good. Kibbe, how was your childhood?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I mean, you had some stuff too. I mean, like we didn't even get to the pranks that people played on you. We'll do that in another yeah, anyway.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Well, let's all downplay our what we went through. But back to the role self of scapegoat. The problem with the, these role selves, I mean, I think we all kind of have to do something like, I think, at any family, the kids, everyone you know has a role, right, it's like this, this kid's of the artist and this kid's the, the quiet one, right. But the dysfunction is if the kids are locked into it. Right, if you, if you like I do like almost seek out situations where you become that scapegoat again, or that caretaker again or the fixer, right, the golden child, if you're constantly like I got to be this because that's what people want from me and that's what will keep my mom and dad happy and my siblings safe and me safe. This is, you know, I got to whatever and not being able to be like you know what, that was what I had to do and not being able to be like you know what.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

That was what I had to do to survive that family and to appease my parents, who weren't able to handle complexity and me becoming not the golden child or not that whatever. But yeah, that healing will look like exploring the different parts of yourself than that role self.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I, I would just think that, like if you, if you, if this resonates with you, it would be such an eye-opener to be like, holy shit, like I've been playing out this role based on like a family dynamic and have been either like blaming myself for things or seeing myself in a particular way just because of like someone in my family couldn't, couldn't, give me the yeah, yeah, the stability I needed in the warmth that I needed. So we've got the entire old scacapegoat and who else?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I mean, I think there are different ones. There are, there's actually and there's different. Actually there's different subtypes of like, let's say, the Golden Child, like there's the beautiful one, right, you know something about that, miss bachelor my entire, all of my siblings, were trying to be that though okay, so you all have that role that. No, I mean like I think didn't you mention that some of your siblings had a little bit more emphasis on their career or like work competency siblings?

Jacqueline Trumbull:

had a little bit more emphasis on their career or like work competency, uh, only because my two oldest siblings were the most academically successful. But I think Andrew and I were pretty equally like obsessed with the idea that I mean, like my brother, andrew I think has some damage that he wasn't academically like oriented um, and he like calls himself the black sheep of the family. He happens to be very good looking, so like he it gets to be the beautiful one.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

But I don't, I don't think that was his emphasis necessarily interesting saying yeah, I, I think it's, yeah, I think it's probably less of like what roles come out and more like the rigidity with these roles and are the do the kids feel allowed to become different types of people, right? The other, the other roles that pop up are the invisible child, which is also, I think is called the lost child, like the one who's just absent, who tries to disappear in the background, who tries to quote, like not draw attention to myself. That's why I hear my invisible child clients say, like I just tried to be good and quiet and just not draw attention to myself, right. And there's also like peacekeepers or mediators, the ones who are stuck sometimes in between mom and dad tell your father this and this and this.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Or the one who, like I've had a patient who, like would literally throw herself in between her parents to get them to stop fighting. Like would grab, like they would threaten to, like you know, call, you, call, you know what was it? They were doing all sorts of threats to call the police, to call like their company and break it all down. So they have nothing, right, and she would actually have to launch herself in front of them and grab their phones or hold them down or something. And this poor girl was like I feel so much anxiety around relationships and work and I don't really know why. I had a pretty good upbringing.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

We can normalize anything.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, it literally was normal for her. She was like oh, this is what parents do, like they were just, they just fought a lot.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, well then, no shit, she doesn't want to get married, I mean, or have a relationship subconsciously. Yeah, I wouldn't be signing up for that shit either, I know.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, it feels like, and I imagine how hard it must be to imagine a relationship like that without that mediator role, right, when it's just like you two and all the blueprint you have is like two people fighting.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Um, you know you're like, oh god, like a ton of work if you know that you're the mediator, so you have to be both that and probably going to be in fights like let.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Interesting is like they talk. I'm really anxious about, you know, getting successful at work, getting this promotion Right, and they're like so driven to do it. And then when they start to feel like, oh wait, this is a coping mechanism and there's more to me than just this coping mechanism, then I think when they do a little healing, it's interesting to watch them go back into their families for, like, thanksgiving or Christmas and then adopt that role and then feel like that anxiety or that like almost kind of like disappointment in themselves that they're like yeah, I had to do that, I had to put on that mask around them. Yeah, so it's interesting around them. Yeah, so it's interesting. Yeah, I think that. Um, so, talking about like, what do you do when you have an emotionally immature parent?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

just you know, reaching out to cool a mind and getting us, or how it's such a broad, it's such a broad thing.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Right, it's hard to be like here's a tip when it's like, well, what kind of emotionally immature parent and like, what role did you play? And, um, you know, how has that affected you today? And like, is this parent somebody you need to set boundaries with, or is this parent somebody that's like you know, like not causing massive problems in your adulthood? So it's, it's hard, um, but I do think like learning to talk about these things and these out, like these elements in your own development, can really help you be in relation to other people, because if you notice some of your patterns coming up, or if you notice this role coming up for you, then it is going to be enormously helpful to be able to communicate that helpful to be able to communicate that.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, yeah, I think that even just listening to these different types and identifying what resonates and being like oh you know, it's. Sometimes it could come with either direction, either like more anger towards that parent or more compassion, like're they're this driven critical parent and I just thought there was a bad person who hated me, but actually it's like an immature person who's like scared of emotional complexity.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Um, or you know sorry, no, I just wanted to make a note about the driven parent I. It seems to me that there could be a cultural element here, and I mean, for instance, we talk about tiger moms. That is like, as we don't you know, that's that's referring to like a specific, not a super specific, ethnicity. But I just wonder if sometimes what we're encountering isn't necessarily emotional immaturity but a needed adaptation to an environment. I mean, if you think about Beijing and how many people are there, if you don't six, if you don't accomplish things and achieve, then you can have a pretty poor standard of living, and so some of this might be like this is how I've learned to survive, and in this, in a flourishing society, you don't need rigidity to the same degree. But we might not be. You know, your parent may not have grown up in a flourishing society. They might have grown up in a place where, if you don't achieve, you're fucked, and so they're going to pass that on and so they're going to pass that on.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, I think that I think a big takeaway from this conversation is that these may not be necessarily bad people. I mean some emotionally immature parents can be very abusive and and like malignant, where they kind of enjoy and have no empathy and actually enjoy hurting people. But a lot of them can just be like little kids inside and they've adapted and did what they can to survive and whatever society dictated what that meant, right, like a driven parent, okay, you just needed to get a good job to survive In war times. You can't be afraid or sad or, you know, wondering about your inner life. Like you've just got to like literally survive, right, so it just.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

It just means that there was something that was emphasized more heavily which led to a stunting and a less development and less attention on another part of them. A stunting and a less development and less attention on another part of them. All right, if they're, if they're so focused to getting married and have a kid, they might not be like right, like a lot of like moms in the boomer generation are just like I just like wear makeup all the time, I do my hair and I marry a guy with a good, with a good, stable career and who could provide and have two kids and make sure that they're fed and they go to school Right. And you know that's what they've learned to survive. And there's other parts of them, like anger and sadness and conflict about all that. It's just like no, no, no, no, I'm not going to deal with that conflict about all that.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

It's just like no, no, no, we're not gonna deal with that. Yeah, so I mean there was a lot of compassion we had for these parents because they were I mean, they grew up in their own stew, right like they. They got this way from, you know, from their own set of circumstances and and development and so you know, I mean understanding. That can be helpful. But there is a lot of pain here too and there's, I think, understandable resentment in many circumstances and it's really something to to work on Cause when we're talking about, like how your parents raised you man. That has heavy, that has implications all over the place.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, for sure. And I think there's a lot of grieving when it comes to like, oh, my parent was like emotionally immature and just didn't give me what I needed, didn't give me those boundaries, like it was too passive, couldn't regulate. Like there could be some sadness of maybe for them, like that's sad for them to have to be that sunted, but also for you, because you were looking for someone to guide you and teach you how to deal with these difficult emotions that they just didn't know how to fly the plane.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Well, kimmy. Where can our listeners find out more about the roles, for instance, in these types of parents?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, I think that just check out this book. I really, I really do love this book. I'll say it again, I don't link it to the show notes, but it is Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Dr Lindsay Gibson, and, yeah, they just give a really nice breakdown of the different kinds of emotionally immature parents, what they look like and what it does to the adult kids. And I think it's you know, the healing process of this is possible and I think the first step that we talk about is awareness and the grieving and then also just exploring for yourself the different sides of you, beyond the role self, like where, if you were the fixer all the time, like maybe there's a time and place to not be the fixer but be the one who's cared for, or to not do is, do not do the common thing that people tend to do, which is, oh, but they mean well, they're your parents, they love you. I've gotten that over the years so much.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And I know where it's, I know where it comes from, because they're like, they can see the love in the parent and usually it really does look like a mismatch, right, like these parents who are emotionally immature, wanted like love and want to do well, they're trying their best but they just don't have the capacity. But there is sometimes, like this, emphasis on, um, the roles and the expectations of the roles. Right, I'm your parent, you should listen to me, even though I'm acting like a child, you should listen to me and I know that there was a little bit more emphasized in the generations before. Like, respect your elders. Do this if you're the parent, never talk back to, but I think we're, especially when you have an immature parent.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

That feels weird. It's like, well, you, you didn't, you weren't like the parent that I was looking for. So why are you looking to me to fulfill my child role? Um, but it also what it does is wipe out the emotional complexity of the personhood. Right, it's your, it's your parent, it's your father, forgive him, he means. Well, he's your dad, you should talk to him. It's like, if he's abusive, right, then what you're telling is that person is obligated to be abused and I, I think that I think that at this um, the way that our society's values have have evolved to be more about mutual respect and earned respect, that whole role, obligation, doesn't have a place anymore.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah Well, I think that's a beautiful place to end. So check out that book and check out Cool Mind if this is something you are struggling with. Kb's program is designed for these kinds of issues, and we'll see you next week. By accessing this podcast, I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this podcast.

Jacqueline Trumbull:

The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment, and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified healthcare provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call 911. The hosts do not endorse, approve, recommend or certify any information, product, process, service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement.