A Little Help For Our Friends
A LITTLE HELP FOR OUR FRIENDS is a mental health podcast hosted by Jacqueline Trumbull (Bachelor alum, Ph.D student) and Dr. Kibby McMahon (clinical psychologist and cofounder of KulaMind). The podcast sheds light on the psychological issues your loved ones could be struggling with and provides scientifically-informed perspectives on various mental health topics like dealing with toxic relationships, narcissism, trauma, and therapy.
As two clinical psychologists from Duke University, Jacqueline and Dr. Kibby share insights from their training on the relational nature of mental health. They mix evidence-based learning with their own personal examples and stories from their listeners. Episodes are a range of conversations between Kibby & Jacqueline themselves, as well as with featured guests including Bachelor Nation members such as Zac Clark speaking on addiction recovery, Ben Higgins on loneliness, and Jenna Cooper on cyberbullying, as well as therapists & doctors such as sleep specialist Dr. Jade Wu, amongst many others. Additional topics covered on the podcast have included fertility, gaslighting, depression, mental health & veterans, mindfulness, and much more. Episodes are released every other week. For more information, check out www.ALittleHelpForOurFriends.com
Do you need help coping with a loved one's mental or emotional problems? Check out www.KulaMind.com, an exclusive community where you can connect other fans of "A Little Help" and get support from cohosts Dr. Kibby and Jacqueline.
A Little Help For Our Friends
Long-Distance Love: Making It Work When Miles Apart
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Distance makes the heart grow fonder—or does it? In this episode, we explore long-distance relationships and what the research actually shows about couples who love across miles. We share our own varied experiences with long-distance love—from casual dating situations to serious commitments. Different relationship styles and personal attachment patterns dramatically impact how well distance works. Low-jealousy partners may thrive while anxious attachment can transform distance from challenging to excruciating.
Communication presents unique hurdles when you're apart—text messages lose tone, calls require scheduling, and the spontaneity of everyday connection disappears. We identify creative strategies that help bridge the gap. The ultimate question emerges: is long-distance simply pressing pause on your relationship, or can it actually strengthen your connection in ways proximity never could?
Whether you're contemplating a period apart from your partner or currently navigating the challenges of loving from afar, w e explore how to maintain connection when miles separate you from the one you love—and when to know if the distance might actually be revealing deeper relationship incompatibilities.
- If you have a loved one with mental or emotional problems, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, work one on one with Dr. Kibby on learning how to set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one. *We only have a few spots left, so apply here if you're interested.
- Follow @kulamind on Instagram for science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
- Follow us on Instagram: @ALittleHelpForOurFriends
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends the podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health.
Speaker 1:Hey guys, today we are going back to dating, which I think you all know is one of our favorite topics ever. We're going to do one that is particularly relevant to me at the moment but both Kibbe and I have experience with it which is long distance relationships. So I have been in so many long distance relationships. So I have been in so many long distance relationships not all of them like exclusive, but I mean I've dated guys long distance like a thousand times and now Jason and I are doing a year because I'm in New York, but that's a more like classic, like we're actually, we actually love each other, we're actually in a relationship, versus some of my others were a little bit different, but, um, we want to tell you a little bit about what the data says fair warning, it's mixed and um and then just kind of go into like what works, what doesn't work and tips. Kibbe, can you tell us, speaking of tips, how Cool of Mind could help any of our listeners who are in long distance relationships?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So in Cool of mine again, we are giving support and community around people who want to break free of toxic relationships, especially getting a lot of that people with a loved one with mental illness, like a personality disorder or addiction or other kinds of emotional issues and we're getting a lot of people who have partners with anger issues. That tends to be people who are, you know, reaching out to us for help. So if you just want to talk and see what we have to offer in terms of how we can support you through that relationship, go to the link in the show notes or check out Kulamindcom K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom. For K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom, for example, we're helping people just understanding what's going on with their loved one, setting healthy boundaries, not going nuts themselves, learning how to validate and support them through their emotional crises, but also without losing yourself at the same time. So that's what we have to offer at Kula Mind know.
Speaker 1:When we were looking at the data, I was surprised to see that, like, how close the results are between close proximity relationships and long distance relationships. Like I didn't find data that said you know, you're screwed if you're in a long distance relationship, for instance. So there was actually some data that was positive, that there were higher levels of, like, dedication and commitment in long distance relationships. Whenever it's just one study, we can never take it that seriously, but it just goes to show like it's not.
Speaker 1:The research doesn't doesn't tend to say that like you're doomed if you're in a long distance relationship. I think an important thing to think about, though, is what are we really talking about when we're talking about long distance like the difference between somebody living in manhattan and princeton, new jersey, is way different than somebody living in new york with somebody in australia and the difference between what jason and I are doing, which is we have a defined period of time with an end date, versus two people who maybe met long distance right, have no idea when they're going to be together Like all of that really changes the landscape of the relationship, and I'm not sure how research can really account for all of that. I'm guessing it's averaging.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good point.
Speaker 2:I imagine that long distance generally just means the two people are located in different places where they have to travel to see each other.
Speaker 2:But then, yeah, what's the difference between that and like if someone lives in New Jersey and they're like an hour and a half away from their loved one in New York, so, yeah, so I guess, like the definition, definition of long distance, like how long are we talking about here? So, um, should we just assume there needs to be like a, like a more than a two-hour drive, or like a plane ride or something, just when you don't see that person regularly and you have to travel to see them, would be what I consider long distance. And things must have changed so much during COVID, too, in terms of long distance, because people were stuck in different countries and during lockdown, like different locations. You know, like married couples that I know were one of my, one of my really good friends like her husband had to keep working in New York because his job had people coming in and then she went um back to Europe with her and her kid, and so they were long distance for about like a year and a half or something like that.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I mean, it was funny. My, my friend, emma Gray, just got married and she and her boyfriend were both New Yorkers, but they there's a New York Times article that came out about how their romance was one where he had to walk like miles every time he wanted to see her. So he because they lived in different boroughs and he didn't want to take the subway, so it was like a long-distance relationship within New York City. Um, but I do like I've I've heard from so many people and so many times that like the secret to long distance is knowing when it will no longer be long distance. But I don't know.
Speaker 1:An interesting thing is like I'm watching my sister date who is about to turn 48. And it's like every single person she dates is long distance because the pool gets so narrow. Because the pool gets so narrow. So she, and like all of these men in their 50s that she's going out with, are like setting their online dating distance measures to include, like, the entire eastern seaboard and I don't know when they would stop being long distance. But you think about different goals, like of. I have super different relationship goals than my sister does. Because I am in my early 30s. I'm looking to have somebody start a family with me and have babies with me, like proximity is imperative. She has already had her kids. She's more looking to just like have fun, have a companion travel with somebody. So I would think relationship goals would really influence the health of your long distance relationship as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really cool. I didn't think about it until you were talking about it. About the age, like what, when people are more or less comfortable with that, I imagine when you're in your 20s, long distance relationship feels like okay. And then later on, after like just the period of time where you want to settle down and get married and have young kids, that must be the highest time where long distance might be super stressful. For example, like you at your period of time versus like if you were 10 years younger might feel differently I had to.
Speaker 1:Just I just had to lean straight into acceptance. I mean, before I placed in New York, before I matched in New York for internship, I was telling myself it was going to be disastrous if I did not place in North Carolina, because I was like you know, this year with Jason could have been a year that we got to spend together. You know, we spent strengthening our relationship and then getting ready to have a child. I could have been pregnant this year, you know, and like we, I could have had those nice 33 year old eggs. And instead I'm like this is a year that not only doesn't move us forward but takes away from us. And so now I'm going to have to postpone getting pregnant not just by a year but by two years, because even coming back then he's wanting to make up for all the lost time.
Speaker 1:He, what he doesn't want is like for me to come home and be like, yay, I'm off birth control, like let's get pregnant immediately, coming off of this year of long distance. Now, let's, you know, do all of that. So I just really had to be like you know what? What Good, it's a good thing. I froze my eggs and we're just going to push off this baby thing. I mean we could have done it a different way, but it didn't really work for him. So how did you?
Speaker 2:so you're you're talking about the long distance between North Carolina and New York and that's about an hour flight, talking about the long distance between North Carolina and New York and that's about an hour flight. Um, what, how? And you're really busy. Both of you are busy at work. How did, how did you talk about setting up this period of long distance, like, how are you going to navigate it? What were, like the you know, the expectations?
Speaker 1:yeah, and we didn't have a ton of talk. We didn't have a ton of conversation about it. Um, we did talk about it. We were like, okay, it's definitely exclusive. Like we're not doing any kind of open arrangement. Um, I was like I, you know, my preference would be to know when the next time I will see you is, before each visit ends. I do find that to be helpful. We talked a little bit about hypotheticals but I mean, we didn't have as much preparation as maybe we should have or maybe other people should have. I think we've been fine having a pretty flexible arrangement. Like, honestly, long distance has been a breeze for me. It's not ideal I would rather not be long distance but it it hasn't been something where I feel like communicating more at the outset would have been important. But I also think that's extremely relationship specific, like I could have never done this with my ex I think, what's the difference?
Speaker 1:uh, the I mean I'm trying to think of what the biggest, the most obvious one that jumps out is that Jason is low jealousy and my ex was high jealousy. I think this would just be so hard. I guess I'll just say like I think Jason and I have several things going for us. One is that we are both low jealousy Like I have not had the thought ever. I wonder if Jason is meeting another woman right now.
Speaker 1:Now some of that is on on me and my amazing regulation when it comes to jealousy, but a lot of it is on the fact that he just doesn't like go out. So I'm just knowing his lifestyle like there's really genuinely is nothing for me to be worried about like I would. I would have to be actively paranoid to imagine that he was up to anything. His job, I mean what he's doing, is far more impressive because I actually am going out all the time with other men who are buying me dinner and taking me to shows, so and they're like things he wants to do. You know, like I went to see glenn garrick, glenn ross, with my friend jeff and james, like, oh, what one of my favorite movies with, with kieran calkin and bob oetkerk.
Speaker 1:Okay, who are you going with again? You know? So I mean we really should have him on to see how he's doing. Yeah, I mean, I think that we both have this value of like trust your partner until there's a reason not to, and of like genuinely wanting the other person to be supported in their happiness. Like he's not going to win anything if he tries to curtail my freedom. It's not going to give him more freedom. It's certainly not going to give him more love and affection. It will build resentment, you know. So Do you feel?
Speaker 2:like you. You know you're worried that this would just be like a huge hold on your relationship and, like you, wouldn't be able to further like develop it or deepen it. Like it as if it was a pressing the pause button on your relationship. Do you still feel like that?
Speaker 1:No, I don't. I mean in certain ways I do, but I think overall long distance has actually given us an opportunity to have something that is difficult to have in North Carolina, which is extended quality time. So what we've traded for consistent time. I think we've gotten in quality time because he has a son and over the weekends when I'm in North Carolina, it's not just the two of us hanging out. When I'm in North Carolina it's not just the two of us hanging out. It's like we have to entertain his kid and, like you know, include Kai, which is fine. But it's hard to have like three or four days where we're just going on dates all the time and I've seen him in a place where he's much more able to cut loose and just be like let's party. Like let's, I mean he like flies up here, buys a carton of cigarettes he doesn't normally smoke. And I mean he like flies up here, buys a carton of cigarettes he doesn't normally smoke, and then it's just like Goes for it, let's just, yeah, interesting, let's party.
Speaker 2:I mean a lot of what you're saying. It does make sense for the research that we were glancing through. I mean that there it can be really stressful, stressful. One of the sources of stress is the obvious problems when you don't see a person every day. Like the relationship uncertainty, right, like what are we going to have, especially if you don't have plans to get together in the same location. Like what, how do how do we deal with that? Like, when are we going to be together? What's the future going to look like, um, and what are they doing? But I'm not there, right, like you know it do they. Can they fully you know, have another affair or relationship at the same time, what you know? You have to put a lot of trust in that person because you only have one, like very few sources of information about them, versus like, if you're living with them, you could get, you know what they, what they look like coming home from work or you know, just like the day-to-day contact.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I could absolutely be holding an affair right now, like j, and it would be super easy to keep from Jason, Like I mean it just wouldn't be. I have all the time in the world and I'm out all the time and I mean this is just him trusting me and like I got cheated on when I was in a long distance relationship. Who, Eric? Oh, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Wait, you were long distance in that relationship.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're both in New York it started when we were both in New York, but I was only. I wasn't living in New York back then. I was just coming up for like summers and oh.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that. Okay, this was when you were in Charleston, mm-hmm, oh interesting, mm-hmm, I didn't know that, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So yeah, he was. It was always confusing, you know, because sometimes we would be exclusive, most of the time we weren't. But yeah, he he was. He had lots of extracurriculars going on.
Speaker 2:Did you have any like suspicion?
Speaker 1:No, which is super stupid, because he's absolutely the type I mean and he was cheating on his wife. So, like with me, you know, I mean. So it's just they were estranged, yada, yada, yada. But you know, I mean I think he had a whole kind of harem situation going and then, you know, he had this girl who, um was he was also long distance with, and she thought that they were in an exclusive relationship. And I thought we were in an exclusive relationship and he was cheating on both of us. So we had a call in the airport. I remember once where I was like yeah, yeah, this is my side, what's your side? We're like comparing notes. It's fun times. Would he come to?
Speaker 2:visit both of you, or you two would rotate visiting him.
Speaker 1:So I'll give you my favorite example, which is my brother was getting married in Charleston and I invited him to come with me and he said yes, and he had booked his flight and everything. And then he wound up not coming because there was a hurricane. And, um, that's fine, right, like a lot of people didn't come because there was a hurricane, except he became very spotty at communication and like didn't call to tell me, he just texted and then like kind of didn't, wasn't responsive the rest of the weekend.
Speaker 1:I was extremely upset and then when I found out about this other girlfriend and I was on the phone with her. I was like, was there ever a time in like October, early October, where he said he had a business trip or anything? She was like, oh, he said he had a wedding. I was like, oh, okay, he was bold enough to say what it was. She was like, yeah, he was like looking for rental cars, you know, while we were sitting on the couch.
Speaker 2:So I mean, you know, wow, that is a weekend with my family at a wedding and he was looking for rental cars with his other girlfriend wow, that's bold, that's real bold yeah, yeah can accuse him of not not being a bold cheater.
Speaker 2:I mean the amount of logistics that tend to go in a long distance relationship anyway. I mean, to do that with multiple people seems crazy. But yeah, I feel like you know, when it comes to infidelity, this could happen in any relationship, whether it's long distance or whatever. You know, so it's. I don't know if long distance necessarily means more cheating, but I definitely. I really did like whenever I was in a long distance relationship, I did like what you described. Whereas it feels like a special time for your relationship, um, on a day-to-day basis, stay in contact, but then have a weekend or a week where you just are visiting with each other and that you do special things. It's like a full date. That's like a weekend long.
Speaker 2:Um and it's you know. So you, you kind of have a little bit of a honeymoony feeling where you know you really dedicate that quality time together because you're like, oh my gosh, I have to pack all of physical contact into these days that we have together. And then you get excited. The loop of you get excited as it's coming up. You start to plan what you do and then you know any kind of interruption like someone's sick and they can't, or they miss their flight is devastating.
Speaker 2:And then when you do have it, it's amazing. And then what? Then, like you start to get sad when they're gone and you know there's just like this. Really, it's almost like built in emotional roller coaster when it comes to visiting them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you have to balance to the need to see each other regularly but also the need to like not not just exist in the place that you're in locationally. Like Jason and I had an intended to do every two weeks and it's gone down to once a month, and I think a big part of that is like it would just simply be more of a pain in the ass and just missing out on our like regular lives to be trying to visit that often. Um, like if I knew that I would only have every other weekend in new york, it just I don't know. It would be easier if I didn't have to write a dissertation at the same time, but it would start to feel as if I'm not really living in new york. I'm just like waiting to go to north carolina, um, so I don't know. I mean, if, if I had more PTO, maybe it would be better, but I didn't. What I didn't want to do was just like not really experienced being here.
Speaker 1:And what I do like about this, what I like about this being an interrupter of the relationship is that when we get into long term relationships, I think we can forget how competent we are. When we're single, like we can forget that we actually do possess the ability to, like, lead our own lives and take care of ourselves. And then, when you're in long distance, all of that kind of comes back to you quickly and I think just like remembering that lesson periodically can be really helpful, especially if you're not convinced you're going to marry your, your partner, cause I remember like when I was with Paul, I was so scared to break up Cause I was like I don't even remember how to be on my own anymore.
Speaker 1:Like I don't remember what it's like to be single. And then, as soon as I was single again, I was like, oh yeah, right back on the bike. Um, but it, I don't know. It was just like it was nice to get that lesson Like. I know I'll be okay. I know I'll be okay on my own. I know how to do this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you definitely have an experience like a uh interesting experience of being single and being self-sufficient, at the same time being in a very committed relationship that is just founded on the emotional connection, like the talking.
Speaker 2:it makes me think a little bit about Love is Blind, just because I'm a big fan of that show. But it's like what happens when you distill an entire relationship down to just the conversations you're having and the trips. There was some research showing that some long distance relationships can be even emotionally closer, more resilient, because not only are you dealing with a relationship challenge on its own, but you learn to have an entire relationship through talking. And there are a lot of relationships in person where you don't have such an emphasis on like, okay, I'm going to have to talk to this person and tell them about my day, and tell them how I'm feeling, and yeah, um, yeah, so you're just like. You know you don't take each other for granted. The contact between you and the interaction between you is really intentional and planned and necessary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that there is definitely a benefit there. Um, there can also be a downside. Like I'll, jason and I don't actually talk on the phone that much. I think we had intended to a lot more, like at least weekly, and we probably are talking on the phone at least weekly, but it's not necessarily like a three-hour phone date or a particularly long phone conversation and they're always good.
Speaker 1:Um, I, you know, I worry, my, my biggest worry, going into long distance, was that we would lose our chemistry. Because I know from doing long distance in the past, like sometimes it can be hard to keep up the natural flow of conversation when you're long distance, because the things that can bind you together, even just like when you're, when you're like walking down the street together, right, seeing the same things, being able to point out the same observations, right, like that can be pretty binding. And then in the long distance it can be like I mean Jace, like when Jason, I ask each other how our days are, there's a very good chance I'm going to be like yeah, like I went to michelin star restaurant and then, like you know, went to a broadway show and he's like uh-huh, uh-huh, cool, yeah, um, I went to work and then, uh, then I watched a movie with kai. Uh, now I'm going to bed. It's like the same every time, right?
Speaker 2:so it's really hard for you to be a long-distance relationship because your life life in New York is more awesome than his. Okay, yeah, that's hard. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's hard. No, but what I mean is like we're just having really disparate experiences.
Speaker 1:And I know he'll name that right He'll be like just doing the same thing as always. I wish I had some cool stories to tell you always. Uh, I wish I had some cool stories to tell you. But, like when I'm in north carolina, I also have that like lame life, but it's just we're commenting on things together throughout the day, like commenting on what we're eating together, what we're watching together, like what we see on the street together, like there's just content that's always available versus like a long distance. I mean, we've been doing fine, genuinely, but a lot of the time it's like this is what I did. Oh cool, how was that show? How was that? How was that movie?
Speaker 2:and then you kind of like run into a dead end kind of quickly yeah, yeah, you, you're just reporting, exactly on your individual experiences, whereas a lot of relationship is like the different perspectives on the same thing that you're sharing right um exactly and there's a lot of um.
Speaker 2:Well, text messaging may may change this, but in when you're living together, you can have these spontaneous chats or hugs or like non-force, organic interaction, whereas I remember a long-distance relationship it was like, okay, now it's our time to talk and so you have to talk and sometimes you're tired and don't, you just want to be with the person.
Speaker 2:But I don't know, maybe other people, I think there's other relationships. I heard, especially around covid, that got used to like a zoom relationship where they would just have the zoom on and the webcam on and then they would just work or exist or hang out, um with, without, you know, like pressure to talk to each other, and I never really did that before. That that's just interesting to feel, because sometimes it was like, okay, this is our scheduled talk, oh, I have to make, I have to think about something interesting to talk about. You know, like it was like, okay, this is our scheduled talk, oh, I have to make, I have to think about something interesting to talk about. You know, like it was like such a forced conversation that it was.
Speaker 1:It took the spontaneity out of it yeah, I think jason and I have been just sort of coasting along in this, that we haven't had to get too creative with things, like it's just been, it's just been good enough, like it's been great in ways, like the visits are amazing and talking to him is great. But I don't think either of us see this as like okay, we need to like save our relationship. We're like we've really got to amplify this year so that X like.
Speaker 1:I think we're just kind of like, yeah, this is fine and it's going to end, thank God on X date, but I don't think that's a bad idea, like just having in your pocket, like with you while you do things, and that sounds kind of nice. I will say like one of the reasons we don't have that many phone calls is probably because I don't like phone calls, especially with what we do for a living. It's just like I just talk to people, all day yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I had a bunch, um, I had one in college which who was my first husband, and it's interesting when you said that you don't really live in the place because you, my Alex, and I lived together as like college roommates in senior year and he was so excited I went abroad for a little bit and so we were so excited to like finally get like the senior cool, you know townhouse, you know living and know living.
Speaker 2:And then it was our last year like big hurrah, um, and then I started seeing my ex-husband, um, who was like a couple states away.
Speaker 2:So I have to, you know, go to a really long bus ride and I would, we would do like every other weekend or so, him here or me there, and whenever we were together, we were just like in like the couple world in that weekend. So I wouldn't even see my friends, um, I mean, I even was like super late, like two hours late, for my own party at our own like college dorm, which I feel really sad about, um, and yeah, alex, to this day was like, yeah, I thought I was going to live with you and you were never there, um, so it's kind of ironic, but I, alex and I started as a long distance relationship we he was living in LA when we got together and he was um doing law school. And we got together when he came for a summer here to hang out with me and then he had to go back to law school and then finish it up and and then we were like we'll, we'll be together at some point.
Speaker 2:But, that was really tough because I think that at the time we weren't sure how to navigate that coming together, the, the, the um, the move wasn't really clear. He wanted me to move to California or like, had some dreams of it, and I was in North Carolina. Like there was just like a lot of different pieces about what our future looked like and at the time I was actually really anxious because I? Um thought I wasn't fertile and I was like you know, we don't. You know, I was like 34, 35 at the time. I was like you know, we gotta get on this, you know, and he had two more years of law school left, like what were we going to do? Um, I, you know, spent like spend some time. I didn't know what to do. I really I was scared of the timeline, I was scared of the distance. In my mind it would have been like a couple of years before we had a family.
Speaker 2:Um, and I made that very clear that I was like really panicked about the timeline. And one of our trips, one of our, you know, long distance trips, we went to a wedding in Colorado and I remember I remember he said, okay, let's, let's start trying, let's start trying for a baby. I'm terrified, but let's do it. You know like, and so we did while we were long distance. And I got pregnant while we were long distance, immediately the first time we tried, which is insane because in my mind I was like it's probably going to take a year of trying before we, you know, have to do fertility treatments and then so the timeline was just so different.
Speaker 2:So suddenly that put pressure on. Now we have to be together, like we're going to have a baby in nine months, 10 months. You know like we better be in the same location. So that's that's kind of like. You know, to his credit, he really worked hard to find ways to do long. You know, like um, remote last year of law school, while we had a baby, um, but that was crazy. I was fully pregnant and we were flying back and forth to see each other. So I had a full pregnancy, you know, until the very like last month or two, you know, by myself. So, yeah, we had a long distance, like pregnancy. It was crazy.
Speaker 1:Did you? How did you get the support you needed through the pregnancy?
Speaker 2:I freaked out. I was like an anxious wreck. You remember me. I was like a total anxious wreck. I was physically it was. It was really tough. I didn't expect that to happen.
Speaker 2:Like there was there were many days where lugging the the laundry up and down my stairs and just doing like like bringing the trash out by myself as like a fully pregnant woman by myself. It was really really hard Emotionally. You want to at the time, you want to like nest and want to be close to them and want to feel safe. And I and I was surprised to feel like my autonomy didn't feel safe anymore, like being alone was scary. I would you know if I heard weird noises in the house, I would be extra scared because it was just like me and this like baby.
Speaker 2:Um, and flying. I remember actually I found it really difficult to fly because I would fly to him quite a bit to los angeles and you know, after a while, flying with a full pregnant belly was tough. Um, and then, yeah, just like hanging out late at night in an airport trying to find a taxi, suddenly, like my instinct kicked on, like I want to, I want my man to protect me. It was just weird. So I was very withdrawn. I was very scared of more anxious and and paranoid than I normally was, and then it was way better when we got together. We finally came together in New York.
Speaker 1:There wasn't any like adjustment from knowing each other in a particular way to because that was also like in my, in some of my other long distance. I had like one six month long distance scenario, um, with this guy who was so hot, oh, you didn't love me, it was a shame, but he was really hot, and every time I talk about him I just have to like make it clear how hot he was because that that was like his defining characteristic anyway, we, you know, we did quite well long distance and then, when we come in person, it was there was some awkwardness and I don't know.
Speaker 1:That's because we were just too used to like the how we communicated long distance, or if it's because he didn't love me and just wanted to have sex with me and didn't really know how to communicate that I don't know um did you talk a lot when you were apart, like, did you have that emotional connection when you were not together, or until the end.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think he, I think he was into me for a little while. Actually it's funny. When I was in high school I had a long-distance situation. This guy named Phil, we knew each other from the politics club. He lived in Ohio and we talked on the phone every night. Then I went to prom with him in Ohio but we had to drive from this politics convention to Ohio together and it was so awkward Like I lost all ability to talk to him.
Speaker 1:That memory is probably what has made me be able to talk to a brick wall. Now I'm like that's never happening again, Cause then he goes to me immediately afterwards. Um, but I just remember this car ride and be like I don't know how to talk to this person, I don't know what to say, Like I can tell he's trying. I'm sort of trying, but it's just so awkward. I mean that's a 17 year old tragedy. I don't think I would encounter that now, but it is weird to go from like. That was another thing I was worried about with jason. Like his texting tone doesn't match how he speaks at all. So I was like if I get too used to his, then he in person is going to feel weird to me.
Speaker 1:That hasn't really happened, but there's another chemistry. That's interesting Thing I was worried about. That's really interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's sometimes a special chemistry over text that you know, you see it. You see it in love. Love is blind, right, like they can they connect in a very particular format, because it's like you're just talking or and maybe there's a connection that that happens just in that format and then in person it's gone back and technology has a big piece in all of this too, like the, the growing technology Cause I remember I would, you know, meet someone in summer camp and we would be dating or whatever, and then we would just afterwards it would be phone calls and emails, emails were like.
Speaker 2:Whoa, you know. But like there would be phone calls, yeah, and that would launch people into like a little bit more of a confessional state, you know, like being really open and just like talking like you know, um, but then when you get all the feedback of being in person, it might be weird.
Speaker 1:so that's a really interesting thing of like long distance relationships being like better sometimes in the long distance yeah, I mean I I think I was I was worried more about the reverse, that our chemistry would die because we're better in person. But I mean I think it can go. It's bidirectional and it's just like one of those nervy things. I mean, if I'm thinking about, I don't feel like my relationship is actually the best example to talk about when we think about, like the pitfalls of long distance, because I just there are so many pitfalls if you think about anxiety here, like if Jason were an anxious partner, I would be having a really different experience in New York yeah, I became an anxiously attached partner when I was pregnant, like I really I became more um hooked on when he responded back to me, when we're going to see each other um missing him, and there's also research showing that, like there's a little bit more idealizing, like the heart, the heart make um.
Speaker 2:Distance makes the heart grow fonder, right so it's like you're, you're apart and you get to miss each other and idealize about all the things that you love and miss, about them right, instead of taking them for granted by being right next to you. So, yeah, I mean, I remember feeling that anxious all the time and I'm sure now. Now there's probably all these different ways that people stay connected, even if they're not actively talking, like sharing location, actively talking like sharing location, um, different kinds of like shared activities online, like netflix party, which is now, I think, something else but like watching movies separately together, or like playing games online. So there's all different ways to like stay connected so you're not relying just on that text or that call or that one um. But I think it's hard. I think it's really hard because you're the distance. Lets you fill in space. Fill in the space with your own insecurities, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean my like. My experience with Eric and the Hawkeye Nikolai they we both like more or less started out. I mean Eric and I had some runway in person but the distance definitely increased.
Speaker 1:Idealization, because I, I just filled in the gaps with my own, like daydreams and fantasies about them. Um, and yeah, eric and I played civilization over these like five hour FaceTime dates, like Eric. Eric and I in some ways we're more actively long distance than Jason and I are, and I think that's because Eric and I didn't have a return date, but yeah, yeah, I mean we would have these marathon, like playing this game, so that again the pressure of just talking at each other for five hours was kind of toned down, toned down, um, but like I think it would be hard.
Speaker 1:The problem with an anxious partner in a long distance situation is that when the anxious partner at home doesn't want you to go out for fear that you will cheat or it will make them more anxious, right, you stay home with your partner. But when your anxious partner in long distance doesn't want you to go out, you stay home alone, and that's just not something that I think a lot of people would be interested in. Like, if jason was like, please don't go to glenn gary, glenn ross, I'd be like, okay, well, now I'm missing out on glenn gary, glenn ross, and I'm alone. I'm sitting in my, you know, cardboard box in new york and so I don't know how you do it without, like, really strong regulation skills for for jealousy and insecurity, and I mean I I cannot imagine.
Speaker 1:I was very uh, faithful to my birth control this year because I was like I do not want to be long distance and pregnant. So I really don't know how you did that. Because you were. You were literally physically vulnerable, like what if you had a miscarriage yeah, yeah, no, there were.
Speaker 2:I mean I had COVID. I got COVID even though I was vaccinated. I got COVID while I was pregnant, while I was like second trimester, I was so sick I couldn't move um, and that made it like I second trimester, I was so sick I couldn't move Um, and that made it like I still had to work, I still had to, like walk up and down the stairs. Um, so, yeah, that anxiety and feeling like I need that person, I want them close to me, was you know. Then then you're, there's more time and space for your insecurities to run amok, and so, like, whenever we have insecurities with relationships, a lot of it could be just like these core beliefs, these like old blueprints that we're just like projecting onto our new partner, right, like, um, fear that they will leave me, you know, like I'll just be left alone. Uh, they don't actually love me. And so when that was activated, that was super intense when I was pregnant, and so anytime we had a kind of a not great conversation or he wasn't responding, I kind of went into like like this means all the bad things, yeah, and I remember would have we had like more fights Definitely. I mean we also had more fights because it was like we don't even know when we're going to be together. You know, like our future was together was so tough to navigate and figure out because we would be texting each other insecure at least I was insecure and then we would misread each other. Like I remember we had a huge fight because he missed. Like I was anxiously ruminating at him through text and I think he read it, read the tone as more like here's what it was I was.
Speaker 2:We were talking about when we're going to propose. Get you know, when we were going to propose and we were going to get together and I I thought that we were going to get engaged earlier than he thought, right, and I was talking at him about how sad I was and anxious about that and I was like, well, maybe it's actually a good thing that we have more time, um, to get engaged, because we have a lot of things to figure out, right, but he read it as well maybe it's a good thing that we are not getting engaged right now because we have a lot of things to figure out. Yeah, and he got so mad and he got so hurt and we got into this huge fight and I was kind of confused. So he was upset and then the things that he said and acted triggered me to be upset, because he was more cold and distant and it spiraled and it was like a couple day fight. We didn't talk, which is a little bit easier when you're not, when you're long distance, like I basically like cut them off, you know, like iced them out for a couple days because I needed to like process.
Speaker 2:I was so upset after that conversation, um, whereas I think we probably would have talked more, like resolved it faster if we were in person, because we had to be right at each other. But when we really spelled it out, it was a lot of this miscommunication, a misreading of my tone. There was a lot of this miscommunication, a misreading of my tone. There was a lot of other things around it, but that was really the thing that set off his insecurities. So that is like was such a downfall of like both of us being anxious and long distance. Is that you are? You have that really narrow channel of connection and that channel is fuzzy and breaks down. Then the whole thing is a mess.
Speaker 1:I can't even imagine being long distance pregnant, and that new to a relationship where, like wow, if he leaves me, I'm so fucked, like I am so alone with this, and then to have all the perils of texting as your major communication source woof yeah, and you know me as a texter.
Speaker 2:I'm like like text, text text. I mean, most of the time I'm texting on my computer, so I'm just like type type, type type. You know that meme of like. Have you ever seen the Kermit meme on Instagram where he's just like furiously typing? That's me on text all the time and you know that very well. Yeah, so I was just saying things and just not being mindful about how it comes across. So, yeah, that's a huge pitfall, like when you don't. The more ambiguity you have in a relationship, the more you can project your insecurities into it. Right, like that's, that's really where insecurities come into play is like you don't know the answer, you don't know what the other person is thinking, so I'm just gonna fill in what default fear I have. They don't love me, they're gonna abandon me, they're gonna leave, you know whatever. And then that becomes how you interpret that silence or that ambiguous interaction.
Speaker 1:Oh, you remember that. Well, I also I feel like there's this thing that I did slash do, which was, um, I think I saved up my discontents for when I was in person, which isn't necessarily dumb, I mean, it's a double-edged sword. Like I did, I think I wanted to avoid the insecurity that comes from a text fight or a phone fight and then all of the space that you can have available to you after that, like I think, I didn't want to.
Speaker 2:That's unusual, actually, like I, I think that I would say in my experience I can't remember the research, but I I was hesitant to bring up any bad stuff when we're together because you're like we only have like three days together. I don't, I want to make this awesome right. You don't want to spend the whole time fighting, uh. But then afterwards, when we would be distant, I would bring up and actually I wanted to talk about this but I couldn't, so you saved the fights for the in-person time.
Speaker 1:I don't think it was conscious necessarily. I think I was probably steeped in some insecurity while we were apart and then when we were together, it probably all came out, I mean, including when I'm Jason and I have an amazing relationship, okay. But he's also like one of the only people that sees me very emotional most of the time. So for a while, like every visit the first night, I would cry over something. I like I'd be, but I'd be like pissed at him about something or you know. So it's gotten to the point where he's like I visited this this like a week or two ago, a week ago, and was starting to get really in my head about something he said he was like we're not doing this, we're how do we turn this ship around? Like we're not no-transcript this whole time, but it kind of recurs, which is the travel fight, um and so like when you're traveling to see each other no travel.
Speaker 1:Fight is jason. When are you going to go to belize with me? This man refuses to leave the country but he says that he wants to and he says that he has no problem. It's just, you know, it's just practical, etc. So, anyways, when we're in person, anytime travel is alluded to, I'll like take the bait, and whenever Eric and I were in person, we would break up. But I don't think that was my fault.
Speaker 2:Do you feel like things are resolved better when you have the argument in person versus like over text? Yeah, or when you're apart? Yeah, yeah, interesting, yeah, I mean I mean this. This is a good segue into like best practices or tips for long-distance relationships. What would you say are the tips for making, making a long-distance relationship as healthy as you can?
Speaker 1:I mean I think if you have a problem, you should bring it up. You shouldn't store it and wait until you see each other in person, because you do want to protect that time and you don't want to be, um, storing up a resentment or anything like that. Um, but I do think it just can be true that, like the things that you've thought about alone can kind of like pop up when you're, when you're together. Finally, um, I don't know. I mean, I think having a really honest conversation about your needs for autonomy versus control is going to be important. Like, if one of you is anxious, how is it going to work that one of your, one of the partners is just not going to be there and you won't know what they're up to? And like I think it can be easy for especially the person who's moving to like agree to stuff. Like yeah, I'll, totally, we'll have a nightly call. If Jason and I had a nightly call, I would not be experiencing New York. Like I just don't. I just don't see how that would be possible. Right, maybe if we had the same bedtime and we did a right before bedtime call, that would work, but his bedtime is like 9 pm Most of the time I'm out. So how much are check-ins actually going to be worse for us versus, you know, helping our relationship? And then, yeah, I mean some way to make it so that you two are observing the same things at some point.
Speaker 1:So I did like playing civilization with Eric. I thought that that was a good way to like have something to do that kept us on the phone and, yeah, paul and I would do some. I think we would watch movies at the same time. We were never long distance, but just like when I was on, when I was visiting family or something I think there are certainly you can have date nights, like Eric and I would always basically just get when I was 23, but Jason just get plastered on the phone and we'd have these like five hour marathon talks and but it was like a date. You know, it's like something to look forward to, so that kind of thing can work.
Speaker 1:Um, I do think knowing when you're going to see each other next is helpful, but you have to like really keep in mind the individual partners. I'm somebody who thrives off of flexibility and I don't. It wouldn't work super well for Jason and me to have come up with a bunch of rules for how we were going to do this, a bunch of expectations like it works far more, that he is just flexible with me and then, you know, there's no expectation that, like I have to be somewhere at a certain time, unless we pre-arrange it yeah, I think it makes sense to.
Speaker 2:If you know yourself well and how you like to communicate and connect with a partner, um, that really helps. But then if you're already deep into a long distance relationship and you're feeling this out, then I guess it's it's worth it to check in with yourself and the other person. Like it. Do I feel connected to them? How connected do I feel? Like, do I actually feel the distance in more ways than one, emotionally and physically? Because, yeah, all these different ways of checking in they're called like emotional calls and like long distance relationship. Like the different ways that you have emotional calls might feel satisfying enough or for one person, not right.
Speaker 2:Like I remember Alex and I would text each other about you know funny things that happened that day or what we're doing. You know we're just we still do that as a married couple. Like we'll tell you like how was your day, I love you. But if one, if the other person doesn't feel like that's enough, like they don't feel connected, they want, like more FaceTime calls or they want more shared activities or they want more, you know, like just making sure that that level of connection makes sense, and it's actually like bringing that person closer versus not One thing.
Speaker 1:I'll say. This is actually probably the most annoying part of the long distance relationship and it doesn't have that much to do with jason, but it's when your job gives you a limited number of pto and you have to spend it all on your partner. I don't know that, year after year, I mean I can do it for this year, but I'm basically telling my mom, like look, I'm not going to see you for six months because it's christmas has passed. You know, yeah, and like tell you, know my like, I was asked to be a godmother and they want me for the christening. But I'm like I don't know when I can come to the christening because I'm spending every single day I have on my boyfriend and so I don't know.
Speaker 1:If you can plan joint trips together, yeah, if you can somehow like get on neutral territory sometimes. This is one of the reasons I wanted to go to Belize. It's like it doesn't have to be your place or my place. It can be this new place where we have this special time. It's we're not just a visitor. It'd be helpful. But yeah, negotiating that PTO thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it really does like box out that time for that other person. If you can like go with your partner to like seeing your family or, you know um, seeing your godchild, like that would be two in one. But you, I understand how people want to get protective over that, the the date, the date visits um, but yeah, I, I think that's hard, that's really hard. Yeah, having that neutral territory was nice, like, like sometimes it's a it's an interesting thing to visit their home and then them visit your home. Who's the host? There's some dynamics around who's the host?
Speaker 1:right.
Speaker 2:Like, ooh, I have to plan all these things, I have to make this fun and blah, blah, blah, um, but even just being like, okay, let's actually meet somewhere. I think my cousin actually my cousin and his wife were long distance for many years and they would just plan vacations to a whole new place that they both want to go to to see each other, and they, they loved that. They thought that was super fun because it gave them an excuse to, like you know, see each other and have a vacation and explore other countries too. So Belize might be your next.
Speaker 1:Well, I think leaning into the spirit of long distance is a really good idea, like the thing that Eric oh my God, the thing that Jason and I have gained through long distance is the chance to see each other just cut loose and have fun and like be on vacation together. Every time I see him, we're basically on vacation and that's very different from what I get at home. So you can do that. But like turn the dial up right. Like nikolai and I, we met at a wedding in brazil and then I flew to hawaii where he lived, and then we went. We met in mexico city. Like it doesn't always have to be one of your homes, it can be this, it can be a bit more of a whirlwind, like you know. Like yeah, like let's go to freaking london for the weekend if we want. Yeah, um, because we have to fly anyway, so might as well fly somewhere, cool yeah, yeah, oh.
Speaker 2:It's making me and it is making me nostalgic for the time that alex and I were long distance. I think in my mind sometimes I think of that time as like the non part of relationship. It almost like is that pause time? But I'm like, oh my gosh, there was so much. There was so much there and part of it was like it fueled the excitement. You know, when we saw each other it would be so much more exciting.
Speaker 2:But then it was also like you're just waiting for your relationship to start, like to wait to see what it's like to actually live together and start a life together. So I know, in some ways, like it was really. I mean, we even did finding out what, what is the? Whether our kid was going to be a boy or girl long distance, we we went on zoom together and then we pulled up the results from the doctor together so we could see it on a shared screen and then had that experience like separately. So that's just crazy to think about.
Speaker 2:But I definitely think that shared experiences in general, the more you can do that, so you don't live separate lives like just reporting to each other. Just reporting to each other like, um, yeah, like I think you know, playing games, playing like there's all sorts everyone's into like world wordle, what is it? Scrap world things online. You know um reading the same book together, watching the same show. You know that that's definitely something that people like do, where they binge watch the same show and like start at the same time and watch it like that.
Speaker 2:Netflix party thing, but um, yeah, there's also like some apps that do it too, and there's like different let's see like there's different apps for virtual dates that you guys could look up. You know there's all sorts of you know oh, and there's also like sending handwritten letters or care you know care packages, sometimes even just when you have the physicality missing. You could add the physicality and actually like mailing a surprise to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think like, especially if it's temporary, like anytime something is temporary, even if it sucks there's, it's going to present opportunities that you won't get normally. So one of right, like you're never going to write each other handwritten notes when you're in a close proximity relationship. So if you've ever wanted to exchange love letters, like do it, you know, um, I'm probably like I might get proposed to in New York City. I don't know that that would have happened if I weren't in New York City right now. Like you know, we were so North Carolina oriented.
Speaker 1:I also think I mean, I think there's two other like major components I would talk about.
Speaker 1:One is like you want to create a situation where you have shared experiences and where you feel connected. But I also I think the other peril of not experiencing the place where you're in and like putting everything into the relationship is that it might increase your pain level in the long distance relationship, because suddenly you're living for the relationship and the relationship is not taking the form that it ideally would, and so then it's easier to feel the unideal parts. Like if I were just living for Jason right now, then I wouldn't be able to lean into the fact that I love New York and there's so much to do here and that I get the opportunity one more time to experience it and my friends, and that's awesome. Um, I do think one thing that helps, though, to not just feel like you're living totally different lives is to see Jason. I have not hit this balance. Well, we've actually. Maybe we have a little bit whenever he comes to town or whenever I go to town.
Speaker 2:It's very tempting to spend all of our time together and I love that and I don't mind it, but it might be better especially if we weren't gonna come back together in five months to like introduce him more to my friends here and so that he actually feels like he has a bit of a life here too yeah, or let him wander around and do something just for him, like just have like some time, which is really hard, but like if there's anything that he's interested in exploring in new york without you although that wouldn't necessarily happen but just to feel like it's not just jacqueline, but it's just, like, you know, a cool trip that he gets a bunch of different experiences in.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's already the city that he resents for taking me away from him, right, but like a place where he actually has some connection you know, I always think the state of the union addresses are like a good idea whenever a relationship is maybe going through something unusual. Really checking in, how are we doing?
Speaker 1:is there anything we need to adjust here, being really honest about how you feel, but also, like I think, if you're oriented towards I want my partner to be happy and I want them to actually experience their life and not just be living for, like, the limited contact they get with me, I think that can be a very helpful orientation towards the relationship, um, and then just like, really lean into creativity and figure out how to make this a good thing for your relationship and not just pressing the pause button.
Speaker 2:I think that's great and we could look up different apps or activities and stuff like that and link it to the show notes. So we'll add that in Cool. Give you guys some suggestions for what to do.
Speaker 1:All right, little helpers.
Speaker 1:Well, I know that we are all in a long distance relationship, so if you'd like to write us a little love letter on Apple Podcasts or Spotify for the five-star review, that would enhance our connection and we'll see you next week.
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