A Little Help For Our Friends

Self-Pity: The Social Costs of Wallowing In Your Troubles

• Jacqueline Trumbull and Kibby McMahon • Season 5 • Episode 137

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Ever found yourself wanting to scream when someone launches into their hundredth "woe is me" monologue? Yep, we've been there. In this episode, we talk about one of the more isolating coping mechanisms: self-pity.

We break down exactly what makes self-pity so aggravating for loved ones—that toxic combination of helplessness, victim mentality, and emotional quicksand that seems to pull everyone down. Unlike genuine sadness or grief, self-pity comes with an external locus of control that rejects solutions while demanding endless reassurance. It's the "help me, help me, but don't help me" dynamic that leaves friends, partners, and even therapists feeling utterly powerless.

We explore the psychology behind why people get stuck in self-pitying patterns, the difference between legitimate suffering and wallowing, and the crucial distinction between self-pity ("poor me") and self-compassion ("poor us"). For those drowning in self-pity, we offer actionable strategies to reconnect with agency and break free from the cycle. For the exhausted supporters, we provide practical tools like "dropping the rope" and setting boundaries without drowning in guilt.

Whether you're dealing with a chronically self-pitying loved one or catching yourself falling into these patterns, the way out of self-pity isn't more reassurance—it's recognizing that even in our darkest moments, we always have a choice.

**If you're struggling with a loved one consumed with self pity, book a free call with Dr. Kibby to see you can get expert insights and strategies through KulaMind.

Support the show

  • If you have a loved one with mental or emotional problems, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, work one on one with Dr. Kibby on learning how to set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one. *We only have a few spots left, so apply here if you're interested.


  • Follow @kulamind on Instagram for science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.



Speaker 1:

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hey guys, so last week we did an episode that was just like really fun and I was excited to talk about it. This week, we are doing an episode that I'm excited to talk about for a completely different reason, which is it is probably the trait that annoys me the most out of like any human behavior, uh, and that is self-pity. So I'm going to warn you right now that my levels of empathy for this are going to be lower than on most other episodes, but that also makes me jazzed to talk about it. So, um Kivi, kick us off with how Kula Mind can help deal with self-pity.

Speaker 2:

Sure, well, if you have a loved one drowning in self-pity and you're going to try to support them and not lose your mind, um, we can help. Well, I'm just kidding Um. At Kula Mind, we help all of you really use the skills and the all the insights that we talk about, which is how to break toxic cycles, um, in your relationships, how to support someone else going through a lot of emotional difficulty. That's probably also making it hard for you, um, but just if you want relationship help in general, applying these skills that we talk about, um, check out Kula Mind K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom, and essentially it's working one-on-one with me and I am basically in your pocket, texting you anytime you need help. So book a free call with me and you can talk to me about how I can help.

Speaker 1:

Well, kibbe, you were the person that I went to for help when I was dealing with a friend drowning in self-pity, so I can attest to that helpfulness and you've been very good at helping me not feel guilt after releasing that relationship. So there's my own little plug, kibbe. Kick us off with the definition of self-pity. You just read me. Oh my God, this is so good. Take us off with the definition of self-pity. You just read me.

Speaker 2:

Oh my God, especially because when we were looking up what is self-pity versus, like you know, feeling sad about your life circumstances or being a victim, like what is the definition of self-pity and I just love this Oxford languages dictionary definition excessive self-absorbed unhappiness over one's own troubles?

Speaker 1:

yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2:

I love the.

Speaker 1:

I love the dictionary dripping with judgment even the dictionary is annoyed by this behavior why does it annoy you so much?

Speaker 2:

what about it like an example of how that this shows up?

Speaker 1:

I mean, it's everywhere now these days I don't know if I'm biased it's everywhere there's such a self-absorption, there's such a narcissism in it, this feeling that you know I've got it worse in the, you know in the world than everybody else, that you know there's nothing I can do about it. The universe hates me. Um, just the like. Look like everybody's going to pity themselves. Sometimes that's fine, Right, Like, if I break my arm I'm going to pity myself for a little while. But this is when it extends past you know the window of reasonability and you know, obviously, with some patients, I like with some of my patients, I have more patients with it. Okay, how do I reframe that? But some of my clients, I have more patients with it than others.

Speaker 1:

But there's such a helplessness in it. It's so. I mean, it's associated with like learned helplessness, right, it's like, oh, life sucks, there's nothing I helplessness in it. It's associated with learned helplessness, right, it's like, oh, life sucks, there's nothing I can do about it. And it's like, okay, well then, there's nothing for me to do about it either. Unless you're interested in changing this attitude, we don't have any place to start really. I mean, I'll start with BA usually, but behavioral education.

Speaker 2:

So you're, you're tying in. So the the definition that I just read of the excessive self-absorbed, like wallowing in one's own troubles, that's the feeling, right? And I was just thinking gosh, I mean, think about how many of us have suffered from depression or like legitimately hard times and sat around being sad of for a long period of time about your problems, right?

Speaker 2:

like kind of you know, depressed or ruminating or um, but you're also adding the thing that's probably more like frustrating for loved ones and other people and therapists is the helplessness and it's like the like. What do you do about it? It seems like not just feeling that emotion, but also just not doing anything to change it. Am I right, or are you like?

Speaker 1:

that's half of it, and then the other half of it is the self absorption with. It's not just I mean, the wallowing is annoying, but it's this, it's the sense of things are worse for me than than other people. I, you know. There's a, a quote that I'll read. So the quote is from Chris enough. Emphasizes that, unlike self-pity, which says poor me, self-compassion says for us.

Speaker 1:

Um, and this really kind of highlights the fact that, like self-pity involves like feeling alone and personally victimized by the world, instead of realizing that struggle is a shared human experience. Um, when I I just ended a friendship over this in part, um, in large part. And when this person would talk about how the universe hates her and you know her life is terrible and she's so alone and nobody cares and like, at the same time, working with veterans who have seen their friends blow up or people burn alive or little kids being beaten to death, you know what I mean. Like those people have it hard to die. You know what I mean. Like those people have it hard and it's even a little bit frustrating when they wallow in self-pity, although they honestly don't really Like her basically being like I got dumped and so therefore the universe hates me and, like I, have problems with friendships, unable to recognize like her own agency in.

Speaker 1:

That was really frustrating to me and I think that that is what happens a lot with self-pity. It's like everybody struggles. Some people struggle way more than other people, but even the person who's struggling a ton can always find somebody who's struggling worse. And that doesn't mean you just tell yourself to buck up and get over it. That doesn't mean that at all. You can have self-compassion, right, like, of course, you can feel sorry for yourself, but if, if, if, it just extends and extends and extends and then it involves helplessness and it involves hatred against the universe and hatred against others and all of this it's just, it's this bolus of maladaptive coping mechanisms. It's not going to get you anywhere. It's just keeping you back and it's going to cause other people to flee.

Speaker 2:

where it's just keeping you back and it's going to cause other people to flee. Yeah, I mean, it's the agency is a really interesting part of it and I don't know what's going on with the world. I was just recently talking to different different psychologists or therapists or coaches and everyone's kind of remarking how a lot of men are having trouble with self-pitying. And yeah, I think it's also hard for us therapists who sit there and hear a patient over and over like talk about how the world is against them and I think that, like I don't know, I think there's just a vibe in the world where people don't feel agency or they don't understand their agency, which I like.

Speaker 2:

I'll take the compassionate side today. It is confusing what agency means to you. Right Like you could work super hard, you can be a really good employee, but if you just right now happen to work in a federal program, like you don't know if your job's at stake or the economy goes up and down, people have lost their jobs left and right, and it just things feel out of our control.

Speaker 2:

Or maybe we're told that things are out of control, right, like our data is being mined, you know, and the Chinese are going to take over, like we don't know what control or power we actually have as individuals, and I think the only power we can like tangibly get is the power of being seen and understood for your feelings. So if I want to feel powerful, or feel agency.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to write about my pain in a public sphere and get eyes on it, right, um, and that fuels like a narcissistic, but like covert, vulnerable narcissism of like, look at my pain, yeah, which means that? Which means that there's like, um, this idea that I don't have control over it, so I feel extra entitled to this suffering, instead of something that I made, I did, I did for myself, right? So it's like all the pain I feel, all the blame to the outside, but no accountability and no agency on my end, which you know can be painful on its own. I'm not saying it's only for people who are like, like terrible people who want to get attention, but sometimes it's just like people don't feel like they have control over things that are happening to them.

Speaker 1:

Right, yeah, no, I I agree with everything you're saying. I think, emotionally, all I want to do is push back on any justification for self pity, but I think it's a good point is that when life feels more out of our control, our locus of control is going to externalize and then we're going to feel helpless. And then then how do we make ourselves feel better if we can't do anything other than seek validation?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and for people who don't know what that means, external or internal locus of control is where you think the control over your life and what happens to you exists. Is it external, like external factors, like other people, the system, the, our society, whatever, or is it or luck? Or is it internal, like I'm able to do stuff? And there's a lot of research showing that people who have an external locus of control, especially when it comes to negative stuff no wait, both, it's both, but it's different. So if you have external locus of control, you're more likely to be depressed because you think, well gosh, anything good that happened to me is just someone else gave it to me. I can't actually have any control or say over that, and then same with the negative stuff. So it just is like I'm helpless, as you said. So I just want to jump in with that.

Speaker 1:

No, that's helpful yeah.

Speaker 2:

I mean. So why is it? Why is it so annoying for you Like, why do you like going into your pushback against it?

Speaker 1:

I think that it demands a lot of me and then rejects anything I try. Other than validating the warped worldview Wow. And even then, sometimes yeah, say more.

Speaker 2:

What does that look like? What is it like a thing that would really get you about self if you're listening to someone drowning in self-pity.

Speaker 1:

With her. It was like, you know, she was like went through a breakup with my friend, um, who I'm very close with, and so it'd be like he's a monster with no empathy and, you know, abandon me and yada, yada, nobody loves me and he's now happy with someone else who sucks and just like intense, like negativity and criticism. And if I agreed with any of that right, then that would be bad. Um, if I pushed back on any event, tried to reframe or anything, then that would be like you're invalidating my worldview and now I feel even more alone, which is the thing about self-pity that I'll I'll pin um and get back to, and if I try to offer solutions and it's like clearly looking for validation over solutions.

Speaker 1:

But the problem is is that the person getting blasted with self-pity all the time gets sick of validating. They get compassion burnout, right. I mean, this is like what the literature is showing and it's also just blindingly obvious if you've ever been in this dynamic like it's. It gets frustrating to validate somebody's feelings that come across as delusional and toxic and self-absorbed and contemptuous. You know what I mean. Like it's just off, it's an off-putting experience, especially when that validation doesn't seem to lead it to anything except for more self-pity. So I think it puts the other, it puts the other person listening to it in a bind that feels impossible to get out of, because then if they bring any of this up, then it's more evidence that nobody loves them and the universe is against them and they can't bring up their feelings or emotions and they're even more alone.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think the bind is a really key point. I think that negative feelings about yourself, even a lot of them, like we've all been there, like when you started talking and saying like, oh, I broke up with someone, he's a monster and he's with someone else, like, yeah, I've been there. Anger, rumination, the negative, the rumination over oh, like something that doesn't feel fair, like yeah, that's I, I I'm at fault to you know, doing that a lot. Um, but the interesting thing that you're saying is like it's a self-absorption. So there's something about like making you an audience right and make it puts you in a place where you can't ignore it right.

Speaker 2:

Like it's kind of why I don't like when people talk at me, when they come in and just start talking at me, but I don't feel like you're like talking to me. I'm like I can't leave right now. I can't do whatever I was doing. This is really usurping my space and time. But like you don't see me as a person, you're not like, I'm just like kind of dehumanized in a real objectified. And then there's like the power and control. So even thinking of the psychodynamics about it I mean we talk about this in DBT when people with borderline personality disorder or other kinds of trauma. They'll fall into what we call active passivity, which means which kind of looks like help me, help me, but don't help me. There's nothing you can do to help me.

Speaker 2:

Help me. I'm in such suffering, you know, but there's nothing I can do about it. You do it, oh no, you can't do it. And the tricky part about it is we are okay with that if it actually gives that other person something to do to help them, like if it's actually effective. It's an effective way of asking for help. But when we talk about active passivity in therapy, it's also blocking the therapist's ability to help. But then what that does is it projects the helplessness that person feels helpless, and so they're going to make you feel helpless. Help me, help me, help me, care about me, care about me. Oh, actually, you're not that good at it. Nothing you do is working, so it makes you the helpless one. Yes, it's crazy, right.

Speaker 1:

It's not crazy, no, it's a beautiful way of putting it. Yeah, she would always say, like I just want to be witnessed and I'm like, but I'm not interested in watching this play, you know? Like there's nothing in it for me, right? I don't.

Speaker 1:

The thing is is like, when you come to another person and you're in pain, like, and it's a somebody that loves you, like they have a limited window of tolerance for getting nothing in return.

Speaker 1:

And one of the things people can get in return is feeling the self-confidence boost and the you know, the joy that comes from genuinely helping somebody.

Speaker 1:

So if you're able to co-create that dynamic, then that's one thing. But if it's just watch me sit, I'm going to command your attention, monopolize your attention for no gain on your part, forever that person is going to leave because it's not, it's not interesting, it doesn't generate any kind of feelings of esteem or connection. And then that person is going to feel like I'm just an unwitting participant, Like you just want me to sit here and, like, watch you, but you don't actually give a shit about how I feel or what's going on in my life. And then, of course, this brings up all sorts of issues with envy. I mean, if you think that the universe hates you and that other people don't love you, then well, what about your friend who has a good life, has successes in life? Is the self-pitying person going to be able to feel happiness for you? Probably not. So it's like what can you even bring to that person?

Speaker 2:

for you probably not. So it's like what can you even bring to that person? That might be a part of narcissism, the envy part, I think. I think that there's something inherent in your conceptualization of self-pity that might not be all of it, all of self-pity that, like what you said before, needing to be the most in pain needing to um, let's say what you just said not be happy or not be able to engage in someone else's happiness.

Speaker 2:

I feel like that is a little bit more narcissism, because that's a specialness right. I have a special right to be self-pitying. There are plenty of people, like patients or otherwise, who I've experienced a lot of self-pitying. There are plenty of people, like patients or otherwise, who I've experienced like a lot of self-pity from who don't, who are still able to be happy for someone else, not like the happiest way because they're depressed, but they might be like I'm the worst, I'm terrible, nothing good happens to me. Oh, my friend, I'm glad that she's happy, but you know so I think it's like what you do with that negativity makes a difference of like narcissism versus just self pity.

Speaker 1:

I do think that what I've been experiencing lately has the narcissistic bent, and so that's what is, you know, in part riling me up. But I do think it would be difficult to be happy for other people if you believe that nobody loves you and that you're fundamentally unlucky and that you're just helpless and a victim of life circumstances like it I. It would just be a tall ask, I think, to to then be happy for somebody who is the universe's, you know, favorite child. Um, so I so I don't know, but I mean, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I just don't think everyone who's who's uh depressed also feels envious. Some people are just like. I don't even care how they measure up off. I see what you're saying, but I feel like those are two different things yeah.

Speaker 1:

I mean. I will say either way, though, if you are friends with somebody who has self-pity and who is capable of feeling happy for you, or not, it can be difficult to bring up your own successes.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

That's true.

Speaker 2:

Excessive self-absorption, right Like excessive and just like that is just filling up the emotional space. Just, the agency is such an interesting part. It really is like I mean, we were talking about this before, but I could see how it gets reinforced at first, right Like you get reassurance, you get a lot of praise, you get a witness. Right, if I start talking about how hard my life is, like most likely you're going to pay attention and not bring it to you Like under normal circumstances. So it's reinforced by the attention and support. Yeah, and then at some point, if it doesn't, if it doesn't lead to any change or improvement, or even good like positive feedback, like well, thank you so much for like letting you know, letting me vent about my self-pity today. I appreciate that Then for you it's just like I'm going to get compassion fatigue.

Speaker 2:

I mean, I do remember when I was in high school and had that like really toxic relationship and I was fighting all the time and I was talking about it all the time. I was really wallowing it in it and um and probably in a more anger, ruminant way, right, and my friends eventually was were like they had to stop talking to me about it. One of my really good friends said I cannot'm sorry, I cannot talk about this relationship with you anymore because it seems to be just painful and it seems that you're not doing anything about it to change it, get out of it like change. You know it was just like years of the same thing. Yeah, that's when friends burn out, loved ones burn out.

Speaker 1:

I know it's. It's an interesting example the abusive relationship or the shitty relationship, one Like I. You know, I have another friend who's in a shitty relationship, not abusive, and she'll talk about it a lot and I get frustrated because I'm like just break up with him, come on, I do not experience her self pityingitying. I think the difference is that she has kind of self-awareness to not bring in the victim mentality. It's more about like a complaining and emoting about life circumstances without saying or me without saying like I'm a victim circumstances without saying, or me without saying like I'm a victim and I.

Speaker 1:

But I think a similar thing can happen with loved ones, where people are going to get burnt out on the relationship thing too, because they're seeing it as this is a problem that can be solved pretty simply Excommunicate this guy or this woman, right, and then you'll be free, and then this whole issue will disappear, and that is enormously frustrating. I mean, we've all been in those, we've all been in these relationships. Um, it's tough.

Speaker 1:

I have a little bit more sympathy for this again because it's not as much of a victim mindset and I and I know what it's like to be for your, for your self-esteem and agency to be seemingly hijacked by another person where it just doesn't feel as if you can get out of it. It's not so much uh, the universe hates me, right, but like, uh, I can't. This person is making me feel both loved and unlovable at the same time and that is messing with my self-concept to such a degree that I don't, I can't get out of it. But I know that my physical like my physical being is is like riding inside me and so I feel all this anxiety and rumination, and I have to talk about it and talk about it, and then other people are going to give you the same advice over and over again. You're not going to take it. Nation, and I have to talk about it and talk about it, and then other people are going to give you the same advice over and over again.

Speaker 1:

You're not going to take it and then and they leave too, but I see it as a different process. I don't know what about you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is yeah. I feel like this is where we're keep coming back to the agency piece. I feel like I have a really like can I do something about it? Right, being like hey, this situation's hard, my relationship sucks. Versus like oh, poor me, why does this always happen to me? Like, why do? Why do these people keep doing this to me?

Speaker 2:

Instead of saying like maybe I'm thinking the wrong guys or maybe I'm doing things right. Like I struggled with the romantic relationships the most because I've had people, I've dated people who really struggle with self-pity. It was really frustrating with me At first. I was like, oh, I'm going to be here for you and help you, and I wouldn't call it self-pity. In my head I'd be like self-pity almost kind of sounds like it's your fault, you should recognize. But I was like like, oh, you're just sad and depressed. But then when you're in a relationship with someone and one of them is drowning in self-pity, that means that they're dropping all their agency and control and putting all the responsibility on the world, aka you right like, if it's like oh god, my life sucks.

Speaker 2:

This is really. Oh, I can't believe this is happening to me and what we're talking about is our lives. Well, I'm the only one left who manufactured this thing that's hurting you, right? And I think it's been hard for me because I'm a really like doer when it comes to hard things and challenges. I may overcome it, say, by like doing too much, but I tend to like really dive into action when I'm upset.

Speaker 2:

So, I am a very agentic, like I'm the one who drives a lot of things and decisions right, so I'm an easy target for like, like all the responsibility we put on me. I'll give you an example. There was, um I had a boyfriend who um didn't couldn't get around without a car, and he had a lot of financial problems, in part because he um got fired from his job and refused to get another one and this is actually not my ex-husband. He was like, oh, I don't have a job, and I'm not going to look for one.

Speaker 2:

Poor me, life is so hard, I don't have any money and wouldn't seem to want to change it. And so he was looking to get a car and we were talking about, you know, different used cars that are like affordable within what he had and what he could manage. And he decided to go and get a loan for a brand-new car. It was like $30,000. And I was dumb enough to co-sign on that lease Because he was like oh, but I, you know, I need a car and if I were ever to get a job, I was going to get right. So I'm like fine, I'll co-sign on the lease. And so he had $30,000 in debt because he got a brand new car. He insisted on getting a brand new car.

Speaker 2:

And then, when we were breaking up, he started. First of all, we were breaking up because he got frustrated and was like stormed upstairs and I went upstairs to see what he was doing. He was packing furiously and he was just like I'm out, I'm done, we're over. And I was like I'm really glad you're saying this, because I've been, I've been thinking about this for a while too. I'm glad, you know, I'm glad this is mutual.

Speaker 2:

And he was like what? And he, like, broke down, was like screaming, crying, and then he ran outside, and I'll never forget it. He ran outside and I ran to follow him. He was like I can't believe you're leaving me with all of this debt. How could you do this to me, how could you leave me with this debt? And I at the time I just felt so bad. I got back together with him. I was like, oh, I'm sorry, you know like. And then later on I was like I didn't tell you to buy that fancy new car. What are you talking about? But that was that was like the most annoying and a lot of things like that happen but an annoying version of self-pity where it's just like you're just, you're just like you're creating bad things for your life. And, yes, there are a lot of external circumstances that are hard yeah, but yeah, you know, um, it's not, it's not all the outside.

Speaker 2:

It's also like what can we? What can we do about it?

Speaker 1:

right. There's just a fundamental like lack of self-awareness that comes with a lot of self-pity just like in that again is the lack of agents because they're not seeing their own agency in these situations. Um, but a lot of times when I see self-pity I've got two major camps of it in my head. I think just experiences that that I've had with it. One is that more kind of narcissistic, self-absorbed self-pitying and one comes from chronic pain. I like really struggle with treating chronic pain in part because if you have chronic pain it's hard for me to see how you wouldn't be depressed Like me. Having a headache just makes me like incapable of productivity. So like imagining my whole body being in pain constantly, or a part of my body, whatever, is just like oh my God. And so that kind of self-pity is also frustrating for me, but it's far more understandable because that person actually has to go above and beyond to find their agency than the other camp.

Speaker 2:

I would argue like emotional pain could also feel like that. There's some people with suicidal thoughts and tendencies that, like it really feels like a physical. I can't control this, and I think that's the important part. If you want to think about it in a sympathetic way, the people who are talking about um might actually feel like they are not in control of what bad things are happening. For example, if there's some people, especially with personality disorders, who just like are mean and damaging to the relationships and then be like, why does everyone leave me? I don't understand. It's because they don't have the awareness to see their agency like what they, what they did to cause it, and which means that they can't see what they can do to stop it Right. So there's that, that blindness. But then it's another thing. If you go, you can do this. Here are the tools. Go for it, and they don't want to take control.

Speaker 2:

Now that's a different question. Like like, what is reinforcing you, not taking responsibility or not saying you could change your situation? What does that do for you?

Speaker 1:

I completely agree with you, and I mean part of this is just like my own frustration biasing me. Of course, emotional pain can feel worse than chronic pain in certain circumstances and the way that you're raised right or the trauma you've suffered is going to make it feel as immovable and adaptable as physical pain. I guess there's still part of me that's like. With the person who is doing this from an emotional, painful place, it is easier to say to them in a in a sense like here are your resources, go do something with them.

Speaker 1:

When somebody has chronic pain, you can say here are your resources, but they're still limited in what they can do with it. Like they, they, they are going to lose hobbies, they are going to lose like travel, they're going to lose mobility, they're going to, you know, like, lose sensory ability. There's just a real loss there and no matter what they do, there's still going to be a limitation. And I mean you could make the same argument with emotional pain, but I don't know. But it's just like sometimes with chronic pain, I can feel the helplessness very easily Because I know that whatever I can do, it's not going to get rid of the fundamental problem and I don't always feel emotional pain.

Speaker 2:

I think that's the key right. Like if you, if you're thinking about physical pain, like there's, I can't actually do something about it, and with the emotional pain, you're like you can do something about it. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's hard to say. I mean I think that when we talk about like what, what's the um, what to do about it, like like what, what are the tips? Tips are, if we think about like how do us therapists deal with patients who are like, oh, everything's the worst, life sucks, there's not got nothing.

Speaker 2:

I can't believe all these people did this to me in dbt. I like this like metaphor. That was really nice and I, um, I like the spirit of it. It's like you, you could tell these people who pity themselves okay, you might not have pushed you into the pool, but you're gonna have to swim out of it and that I, I just love that. It's like fine, you know, I think you could lean in with like validation for the sadness. They're probably feeling the emotions, but it could be like, yeah, all this crappy stuff happened to you because of bad luck, external circumstances, whatever. What are you going to do about it?

Speaker 2:

You tell me what you're going to do about it, because no one is going to rescue you from this. You might attribute the problem to the world, but the world's not going to get you out of it, unfortunately. So what are you going to do about it? And I think in that, in that spirit, we would like prompt the patient to be like all right, what do you think is going to help? You tell me, drop the rope. Like you tell me, I'm not going to keep pulling. Try to pull and fight against your beliefs that you don't have any control, right, fine, like, what are we gonna do? Are we gonna stay this miserable? We can do that, but that's a choice and that is agency is choosing to pity yourself, and if they say I don't know like okay, well, I don't know either.

Speaker 2:

I guess we're gonna wallow. What does that look like? What do we just felt? But what if? Like what do you? How would you change if the world was completely out of your control? Bad things could happen randomly. What are you gonna do? Like, let's just accept that you have zero control. Now what?

Speaker 2:

I need to get brave enough to say these things to people I have said similar things in therapy when I'll be a little bit more genuine and be like. You know, I've noticed that I'm giving like, I'm really working hard here with you. I, you talk, you say all these things and I'm like what else can I throw at them? What can I do to support them? And I'm trying all these things and nothing works and I feel so helpless. Do you feel helpless? Yeah, we feel pretty helpless. What are we going to do now? What does helpless feel like? Let's sit in that for a while. You know, I think that I would do that. I would slow down, but that's that's me working with it.

Speaker 2:

As a friend. I'd be like I'm part of your world man, I don't, I got to do stuff. I got to take out the trash, I got. You know, I got to do stuff, I got to take out the trash I got you know.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think, like I, I I mean, I think this is, this is the thing that brings up the most helplessness for me, and so I, I don't my like tips might be non-existent this episode, I don't know. So I'm glad you're taking the reins here. Um, I do think that part of this is like recognizing how maladaptive this is going to be. I mean, the research here is incredibly scant, but you know what there is was talking about. You know all the things we've talked about thus far, but also this sense of like, the social repercussions of this and the mental health repercussions, which is like, as you ruminate with this external locus of control, with this helplessness, you're only going to make your situation worse, because you're going to be generating and generating and generating more and more thoughts about your own helplessness, about how everything sucks, about life's unfairness, and then what's going to happen is that you're going to want people to rescue you and they will at first, which also will continue to generate this, and then you're going to have this dual process of self-hatred and other hatred, like I'm so terrible, why aren't people rescuing me? They're so terrible, and that's going to push people away extremely quickly, and so then you're going to feed more and more into the isolation.

Speaker 1:

So I think, like step one of this is recognizing that it's happening, and I again I want to be clear, like this doesn't mean suppress. I mean it might initially if you want to keep your friends, but you know, this doesn't mean, like it doesn't mean that it's not justifiable to feel bad for yourself, like shitty things happen in life and of course you're going to feel bad for yourself. Some things do suck, things do suck. There is a kind of injustice mentality though that I think happens a lot with this, where it starts with an assumption that life should be fair and it's just not fair to me, the rules aren't working to me and that's never going to get you anywhere, because everybody else is existing in this unfair world too and they're attempting to make it work, and so this like justice, you know, mindset is just like it's not going to get you anywhere because you're not accepting the reality of this, of your, of your life, which is like the world does not give a shit about you. People do, some people there was.

Speaker 2:

There is some research that we found that said that self-pity might actually be a good, a helpful adaptive response to recognizing when you are helpless right like okay.

Speaker 1:

Well, first of all, this is a philosophical paper, it's not a psychological paper, so this was not an empirical study. So I just want to yeah, I do.

Speaker 2:

I do want to recognize there might be some situations where you pity yourself a little bit right like if you're just like plugging away and suddenly it hits you how hard things have been or how happy some institutions and groups and communities and social norms are for certain people you know, like some things just aren't fair and you might have a moment where you're like up, like kind of wallow in it and go, oh my god, like like I had cancer last year.

Speaker 2:

You know, raising a two and a half year old, like what you know, like I, I feel bad for myself right now um, but like with anything that coping with that is leaning into the sadness, the shock, sadness, anger, like the feelings involved, and not like spinning in your head why it isn't fair and why you can't do anything about it, but which, like spoiler alert, sometimes ruminating in your mind like turning things over and over, is a way to avoid the emotion. Right, blame it, go and think about all the people who are to blame. Feels productive, but it's not sitting with the sadness that things turned out the way they were.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I just want to read a quote from this paper. So basically it says the emotional process of self-pity allows people to recognize injustice in the world without moving on and ignoring it, while the price is self-isolation, it's also a way to avoid self-delusional mechanisms. Isolation, it's also a way to avoid self delusional mechanisms. And then, because it basically because it isolates you it provides time and space to transform themselves by establishing a specific type of dialogue with themselves, whatever that means.

Speaker 1:

But I think, like I don't know if I am conceptualizing self pity in the same way that this paper is, because to me the paper seems like it's talking more about self-compassion. I mean, of course, like this is the thing like on the one hand, life's not fair and on the other hand, sometimes life is really not fair and you do have to fight it, and so that's that's kind of a difficulty. But I think like and and this is where my kind of like I lean too far and then never victimize myself, camp, or sometimes then I'll get victimized because I'm I'm not recognizing my own, uh, I'm not recognizing the injustice of the situation, that someone's treating me like shit, or that maybe I should take care of myself more. So that's the other side of the coin, I suppose I guess. But what's interesting right, is that in this philosophy papers, conceptualization self-pity is agentic. It allows somebody to like, if you just sit around recognizing injustice, that's completely useless, like it's probably better to just not think that you're in an unjust world unless you do something about it.

Speaker 2:

And that takes a duty. Yeah, right, I would say that in in that sense, I've had self like helpful self-pity moments that unhelpful self-pity moments too, don't don't get me wrong. But times when I, um have been like trying to work through each day and trying to get through the day, feeling like crap. Right, this past year, like all the treatments I felt like crap most of the time and some things I'm like slower on, some things that I'd like to be my mind doesn't work as fast like I just I'm just like operating at like 60 percent.

Speaker 2:

There are times where I was just like wallowing in that excessive self-absorbed self-pity, where I was just like I have cancer, like I got cancer and it sucks. It just sucks, you know like. There are other days where I'm like no, I could try to eat healthier and and try to figure out why I, you know. But there's there's a lot of chance, there's randomness, there's there's external locus of control. I, I guess, in part like I just got a bad hand with cancer, um, and sometimes it just helped to have those days. As it's that paper said slowing down, recognizing injustice yes.

Speaker 2:

I also felt like this is hard for a lot of people with cancer or a lot of different illnesses Like I. I think I couldn't connect to like a human suffering on that level, but like there were some days where it just was helpful just to sit around being like poor me, yeah, then getting myself out of it If I stayed there for too long.

Speaker 1:

I think that would be isolating and not helpful I don't know what you did with alex, but with me at least you protected yourself from the social, socially isolating qualities of self-pity which I think involve so like. One thing we know about self-pitying individuals is that they have got a lot of like anger, and that tends to be anger in meaning like they don't. They're not necessarily like throwing plates against walls, but they're like. They're like angrily ruminating, it's like going over like injustice scripts and you're I didn't really get any of that from you Not saying that would have been a terrible thing, but like chronically. You know, it's just like it is me against the world, it is me against. Therefore, like you right, like it's me against other people can really push people away. But yeah, I mean I would have. Anybody should probably feel pretty bad for themselves if they've got cancer. So I don't really know what the right although, but it just falls.

Speaker 2:

It falls on the helplessness, like if I were to sit around talking about, like, oh, poor me, I have cancer, you know it would be valid for me to say that, but it would do all the things that we talked about before, which is making you feel helpless, me feel helpless, Like there's nothing you can do. If I am like my life sucks because of cancer, you just be like, yeah, yeah, there's nothing I can do to help that. But I think you're talking about a very particular type of self-pity which throws the blame on you, attacks you, Right, or just me as part of the collective human race.

Speaker 1:

I mean, like this girl was never basically saying like you are the source of all my problems or like you're. I mean sometimes she would get pretty mean to me it was more because I was a participant and like in the human race and like wasn't being helpful enough. But I mean I like I think there's a balance thing. Like you just weren't inundating people with self pity, you did have it. See, I never really heard a lot of like poor me. It almost feels like more like poor us, meaning all of us with cancer or who could get cancer, like, which I think is again interesting interesting, different differentiation that you said.

Speaker 2:

I have a reason, I have a legitimate reason to feel sad about myself, and so I think what you're talking are you talking about people who, like, feel sad for stupid reasons.

Speaker 1:

When you're talking to your therapist, your therapist is going to say you have great reasons for feeling bad for yourself and you don't need to have a quote, unquote legitimate reason. But when you're talking about friends, you're talking about just like being socially successful. Like there's a world of difference between having cancer and going through a breakup or having cancer and you know, even like my cat dying, you know, I mean it's just like people are going to take that into account, even if, like I mean, the is is like the person going through a really horrible breakup, like maybe it was a really horrible breakup. Maybe to like abandonment is a really huge issue for them, it is the love of their life. Like of course, that can be a good reason to feel self pity, but just socially speaking, we do have, like, whether we like it or not, we have different expectations about what people are going to wallow over, and cancer is at the top of the list Cancer and grief right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean it is.

Speaker 1:

it would be pretty boring if I, if I were to like go on and on about it, but so yeah, but, but yeah but I mean, I just think we're talking about like you have to strike a balance, like nobody's never going to feel sorry for themselves, ever.

Speaker 1:

So there has to be a balance and there's going to be different components that feed into that balance. One is going to be the perceived legitimacy of your complaint. Another is going to be like how much do you make it about this sort of like delusional sense of injustice, or like what the world owes you or you know what I mean or hasn't given you? Another is going to be just about like the amount and the duration that you unload on people, um. Another is going to be like how much is anger involved? Another is going to be how much do you just not accept anything the other person is saying and just want them to witness you in it? I mean, I think, if we're thinking about tips for this, one of the biggest tips is just like realizing whether this is serving you or not, because, ultimately, what these people want is to be less alone, and this is going to make them more alone.

Speaker 2:

Or think about why, like how it is serving you. I think if you are wallowing in self-pity or if you're watching a loved one wallow in self-pity, you can think to yourself what is reinforcing this? Right, it could be attention. Right, just pure attention. It could be that someone else jumps in and helps you and is like pulling you and being the source of like, come on, you can do it Like let's fit you. Right, like giving the agency to someone else. It could be because it relieves you of having to do anything hard that you don't want to, like work in therapy. You know your circumstances, right, like you just don't want to. Yeah, so I mean, you could think about what is reinforcing it and like try taking it away. Right, like, if you notice that your loved one keeps doing oh, life is so hard and gets them off the hook of a house chore, you'd be like, yeah, that's hard, go ahead to take out the trash. Now, you know like give them, keep giving them the agency. Don't, don't feed into whatever's reinforcing this, like helplessness, active passivity.

Speaker 1:

Right yeah, so there's tips for the people who are self-pitying and there's tips for the people who are enablers or, you know, victims of self-pity. I mean, for the self-pity A, I would read Victor Hugo's Man's Search for Meaning, because then you're really going to feel bad about yourself for pitying yourself, because then you're really going to feel bad about yourself for pitying yourself.

Speaker 2:

I remember when Jacqueline and I did during COVID, we did a book club that involved reading Viktor Frankl's A Man's Search for Meaning. So we just read about a man trying to survive the Holocaust as our way of coping with COVID.

Speaker 1:

It was fun? Yeah, because if you're pitying yourself for anything less than being at Auschwitz, then you're going to feel like a giant pussy after reading it. So that's my number one suggestion.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's graphic with what happens there, you know some good better than than what Victor Franco won.

Speaker 1:

Um, I think, too, is just like get really real with yourself about the short and long-term consequences of this. Like you're saying, this is serving some sort of function. Be really clear on what that is and then be really clear on the long-term consequences, which are probably going to be isolation and a continuation of helplessness and a low mood and what you know, and decide for yourself whether that's worth it. Like, maybe it is, I think. If it's not worth it, opposite action is a good thing. Fake it till you make it. You know like, act as if you're somebody who does not pity themselves at all. Act as if you are somebody who has agency. Try things out. You know what I mean. Like, and this is this is why I go for behavioral activation a lot when this is the case, because I'm just like look like it's.

Speaker 1:

It's going to be a hard to have time to pity yourself if you're, you know, doing a bunch of shit all the time and rediscovering your own agency. Right, um, what else? Uh, get in touch with your values. That's another part of behavioral activation. It's like and this is what Viktor Frankl was saying, you know, like, even when I am as, even when the universe is entirely out of my control. I'm still in control of one thing, and that is me. So what do I want to dedicate myself to? Do I, even if I pity myself, even if I feel that life is unjust? Do I want to be an essentially kind person? Do I, you know? Do I want to be a generous person? Do I want to be a funny person? Do you know, whatever the case may be like, you can still be that.

Speaker 2:

To feel sad, to feel the emotion driving this like it could. It could be a sadness somewhere, a sadness a time where someone took agency from you, you know, or just returning to this feeling of helplessness and what that, what that's connected to. So just like emotional, you know experiencing. Yeah, for the loved ones, I try doing Cut and run.

Speaker 2:

Just kidding, break that toxic cycle. I mean, I would say, drop the rope. That's a DBT technique where you just stop pushing that person, just go. All right, what should we do? What? What do you want to do? So like giving them the the floor the choice right, um, and then I I like the trick of of different sneaky ways to show people that actually have agency. So, for example, like what we talked about, like it's a choice not to do anything right.

Speaker 2:

Like we say okay, there's four ways to solve a problem. Any problem that you have is a therapist like hack. If you have a problem, there are four things you could do. One is do something about it, right, solve the problem. Two is think differently about the problem. See it from another side. Get a new perspective. Three, accept it for what it is, just be like this is what it is, all, right. Four is wallow in it and stay miserable, right. So you'd be like out of the four choices, it seems like number four is the winner, and even wallowing in lack of agency is a choice. Right, little things like that, but sometimes you could just be like or if you want to actually be nice, you know, you'd be like wow, look at this thing that you did, that had agencies, isn't that great, you know, let's reinforce that and pay attention and ignore when they wallow in self-pity.

Speaker 1:

I've never presented that to anybody and I'm going to now and I'm really excited about it. The four choices, oh yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, right, it's so simple, it's true. You have four things you could do, and the fourth one is to like do nothing and be miserable. It's like, ok, okay, that's a choice and there might be reasons why they choose that, because maybe it's too difficult to think of other things or something else is more painful, and so wallowing and letting it drown out everything else is, uh, working in some way, but that's really good okay, so you can present the four choices.

Speaker 1:

I think that one of the biggest hits for loved ones this might literally be a separate episode is to get in touch with their own. Is guilt keeping them in? And, if so, is justified guilt, because it's very hard to leave somebody who feels as if nobody loves them, nobody gets it, nobody cares, nobody sticks around. It's very hard to hear that and then decide to be the person who won't stick around, who will remove themselves. I'm currently revved up to do this episode because I'm getting over a weeks-long hangover of guilt about ending my friendship. I'm sure that guilt will creep in again, but you know, I mean I felt this way breaking up with my ex too, where it was just I mean he had a slightly different presentation, but it's just like how could I leave this person? How could I leave them to their own devices? They don't have any devices.

Speaker 2:

I'm their, I'm their device they're not as helpless as you think they are. Yeah, and then that's the story for everyone involved the loved ones, you, you know, I think if someone feels so helpless and I might legitimately feel it like they're treating themselves as helpless and you are like you know you're like, oh no, how can I do this to this poor, helpless baby? All the problem here they are grown-ass adults. They'll be hurt. They'll probably add this to the bank of like why life is unfair but, like you know, that's their choice.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. And that goes back to them just like not accepting their own role in things or, if they do, being like well, I fucked that up, I guess there's nothing I can. I'm just doomed to fuck it up again lack of insight.

Speaker 2:

Insight is it. We could do a whole other episode on insight. Insight is so fascinating, but when it's lacking, it's really tough. It's really tough for the loved ones, you know, yeah, they don't orient themselves in space in relation to you like. They're just like. Here are my thoughts and you just have to deal with it.

Speaker 1:

Like yeah, I think I get. I get pulled into being their insight or to thinking that I can can be their insight when I actually can't. We're just like let me help you think differently about this.

Speaker 2:

Like let me try to convince you of a different reality, like show you what life could be or you know whatever, and it's like it goes nowhere nowhere, and then some people will take that in and use it well, and they'll that's the people you should put energies towards right who take your suggestions or help or support and go. Thank you, now that helped me look at this differently. Yeah, the loved ones.

Speaker 1:

Just like stop hanging out with them, you know okay well, I'm currently feeling a lot of self pity because I come up with these clever little give us 5 star ratings quips and not getting as many as I want. It's really not fair. I don't feel like anybody really cares about us or listens. But if you want to prove us wrong, even though I'm just going to come back next week and say the same thing, guess if I start reading on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and leave us a comment. We love the comments.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, send us a message on the show notes where it says send us a text, want to hear from you guys I'll say that, yeah, alrighty, we'll see you guys next week.

Speaker 1:

Oh, we have an amazing guest next week. Should we just tease that amazing guest? You're gonna love her. She's, uh, in the sphere right now, going back to our reality tv roots and uh, so get excited for that. We'll see you next week.

Speaker 1:

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