A Little Help For Our Friends
A LITTLE HELP FOR OUR FRIENDS is a mental health podcast hosted by Jacqueline Trumbull (Bachelor alum, Ph.D student) and Dr. Kibby McMahon (clinical psychologist and cofounder of KulaMind). The podcast sheds light on the psychological issues your loved ones could be struggling with and provides scientifically-informed perspectives on various mental health topics like dealing with toxic relationships, narcissism, trauma, and therapy.
As two clinical psychologists from Duke University, Jacqueline and Dr. Kibby share insights from their training on the relational nature of mental health. They mix evidence-based learning with their own personal examples and stories from their listeners. Episodes are a range of conversations between Kibby & Jacqueline themselves, as well as with featured guests including Bachelor Nation members such as Zac Clark speaking on addiction recovery, Ben Higgins on loneliness, and Jenna Cooper on cyberbullying, as well as therapists & doctors such as sleep specialist Dr. Jade Wu, amongst many others. Additional topics covered on the podcast have included fertility, gaslighting, depression, mental health & veterans, mindfulness, and much more. Episodes are released every other week. For more information, check out www.ALittleHelpForOurFriends.com
Do you need help coping with a loved one's mental or emotional problems? Check out www.KulaMind.com, an exclusive community where you can connect other fans of "A Little Help" and get support from cohosts Dr. Kibby and Jacqueline.
A Little Help For Our Friends
Interview with Paula Croxson: An Insider Look into Polyamory
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What if we've been thinking about love all wrong? What if the idea that we must choose just one person to love deeply is simply a cultural construct rather than an inherent truth about human relationships? In this episode, we discuss with Paula Croxson, our friend and practicing polyamorist how we can challenge foundational assumptions about romantic love and connection. This discussion was inspired by reactions from our previous episodes on ethical non-monogamy as a lot of you Little Helpers were curious to hear more about how this actually works in real life. Paula shares her three-year journey into polyamory after spending most of her life in monogamous relationships, offering a thoughtful perspective on what it means to love multiple people simultaneously.
We explore how polyamory creates space for radical honesty and communication unlike anything our guest had experienced in monogamous relationships. These conversations about boundaries, needs, and expectations aren't just helpful for polyamorous arrangements – they're valuable tools for any relationship. The polyamorous community's emphasis on transparency creates opportunities to discuss topics that might remain unaddressed in traditional partnerships.
The discussion delves into complex emotional territory – examining jealousy not as something to eliminate but as information that helps identify unmet needs. We contrast this with compersion, the experience of finding joy in your partner's happiness with others. Our guest shares practical insights about navigating multiple partnerships, including scheduling challenges, communication practices, and managing new relationship energy while honoring established connections. Polyamory allows people to design relationships based on their authentic desires rather than societal expectations – creating connections that can be deeply meaningful without following conventional scripts.
This interesting conversation makes us consider what aspects of polyamorous communication and boundary-setting might benefit any type of relationship – monogamous or not.
Resources:
- If you have a loved one with mental or emotional problems, join KulaMind, our community and support platform. In KulaMind, work one on one with Dr. Kibby on learning how to set healthy boundaries, advocate for yourself, and support your loved one. *We only have a few spots left, so apply here if you're interested.
- Follow @kulamind on Instagram for science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.
- For more info about this podcast, check out: www.alittlehelpforourfriends.com
- Follow us on Instagram: @ALittleHelpForOurFriends
Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends the podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health.
Speaker 2:Hey, little helpers. It's Dr Kibbe here. Before we dive into this episode, I wanted to tell you how I could help you navigate the mental health or addiction struggles of the people you love. Cool of Mine is the online coaching platform and community that I built to support you in the moment when you need it the most, like having hard conversations, asserting your needs or setting boundaries, even if you're just curious and want to chat about it. Book a free call with me by going to the link in the show notes or going to coolamindcom K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom and click get started. Thank you, and enjoy the show no-transcript.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me. So if you could so you listened to our E&M episode and you're here in part, to like fill in some gaps and kind of, like you know, discuss this big, wide world of polyamory. Can you start by kind of defining polyamory, if you can, and then kind of telling us what, why you decided to be polyamorous?
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah, I can try. I think it's important to say that I'm not an expert in this. I'm just somebody who's been living this lifestyle for actually not that long, um, about three, a little over three years maybe, um, and I so, yeah, I think I I've learned a lot, um, and I've educated myself a lot during that time, but there's definitely limits to my knowledge and my understanding. So I'll start with that disclaimer um, and I think.
Speaker 3:I think that I'm trying to think what a good definition of polyamory I mean. Literally, it means many loves, and I think that it has this expansive definition, for me at least, where non-monogamy can mean that you have a main relationship and you seek other people outside of it, but that maybe you have some kind of limit to what those relationships with other people outside your main relationship can look like. So, for example, an open marriage is ethical non-monogamy, but it's not polyamory. Why? Because you prioritize that relationship and you might have some rules, like you can't fall in love with other people and if you find yourself going down that road, you have to stop it, or maybe you have some veto power over the other person. In my mind, polyamory is the idea that you can have many romantic relationships or many deep relationships, because aromantic people can also be polyamorous, so I don't want to exclude anybody from this definition, and that can look a number of ways still, and there are a lot of different shapes that I think that we can get into.
Speaker 3:But for me it looks like having multiple partners who I engage with in a way that is not necessarily equal but is equitable.
Speaker 3:So what that means to me is that and there are so many different models of this that there might be people who have multiple partners and they spend equal amounts of time with those people, or maybe they all live together so that they can have the privileges that come with cohabiting and, you know, living with somebody all the time. But equitable means that people get their needs met and that you don't necessarily have to give the same amount of time or energy. You don't even have to do the same things with every partner. Each partnership is different, and the best way I can equate this is to think about my partnerships the way I think about my friendships, which is that I do different things with different friends. I have different levels of emotional support that I receive from them, that I give to them, I have different amounts of time that I spend with different friends and different frequency that I see them, and so in the same way, I can have partnerships where I see people with all of those different kinds of ways and frequencies as well.
Speaker 1:Cool. Well, I was just going to ask what brought you into polyamory. But can we sorry?
Speaker 2:oh, that's it.
Speaker 3:That's a good question yeah, you did ask that already and I totally forgot to answer it. So, yeah, for me, um, it's something that I was. I mean, I wasn't aware of it at all for a long time I was, I have been in long monogamous relationships. My longest monogamous relationship was 13 years long and during that time so I moved to New York toward the end of that relationship relationship, the end being like we were nine years in and I moved to New York and then we still continued the relationship long distance, and during that time I met somebody I made a friend who was poly, um, and that person was in an open relationship with their partner who lived in a different city for grad school and they planned to have an open relationship. So I didn't know it was poly at the time. They described it to me as an open relationship and they planned to close the relationship again when they came back together after the grad school experience was done. And that was the first time that I'd heard of people like successfully doing that and openly doing that and I thought it was very cool and I did think for a minute maybe I should do that. You know I'm in a long distance relationship. That's tough, but I felt like that person wouldn't, that I was in a relationship with, didn't maybe, wouldn't want to do that. I felt hesitant to ask and to maybe hurt that person in the process, and so we remained monogamous.
Speaker 3:And then I had another sort of long relationship after that that lasted a number of years. He told me in some degree of emotional distress, that he felt like he was not cut out for monogamy, and it was like several years in and I wasn't expecting him to say that, but I also found myself being very open to it. For a number of reasons we didn't do that, mostly because he was already cheating on me a great deal, I think turned out he wasn't, and so, although he wasn't cut out for monogamy like he didn't really raise it in the correct way and like I can laugh about it now, but at the time it was very not funny. Um, but again it was like another place where it like arose in my awareness and I found myself thinking, oh, could I, could I do that? Um, in the right situation? Um, and so, as it happened, the next person that I met, you know I really connected with after that relationship, um, told me that that that she was poly, that she had multiple partners, um, and I did find myself open to that and this was a very different situation where, you know, there was trust built from the get-go and where I did really trust that person, um, and so I became curious about it and decided that I was open to exploring it.
Speaker 3:And I would say I didn't act on it for a long time, in the sense that I was comfortable being with somebody who saw other people and I didn't rush into anything. I learned some stuff, I read some stuff, I followed some people on social media, I talked to people and I waited until I met somebody organically who I clicked with, who also was in that lifestyle. It took quite a long time and I think for me, that intentionality of meeting the right person or people um felt very natural and the right way to do it, in the same way that I would only be interested in dating monogamously the right person or people and not just sort of rushing into it. So that that was my, my approach and I was super grateful to have my eyes opened.
Speaker 3:I think initially I was really drawn to the amount of transparency and the communication styles that I was encountering, where people were really, you know I was encountering this ability to talk about things that maybe I wouldn't have ever talked about in my monogamous relationships. Like I told you, I was with somebody for nine, ten years and I was afraid to say, oh, you know, this is hard, should we? Should we do something about this? So I think it. It caused me and allowed me to, like, take on my fears a little bit, to try and communicate more openly and more, um be more open to my partner's communication, um. It's a really difficult place to be and it's like there's like a lot of places that you can trip up and mess up, but isn't everywhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm almost thinking from a perspective of someone who's been used to traditional relationships, the traditional monogamous relationships, and people who have heard our last episodes go well, what, when you open the relationship, isn't that just not a relationship? Or doesn't that just mean, isn't that a fancy way to talk about? Just like dating around? Right for people to be non-exclusive and dating around they might have multiple romantic relationships with the understanding that that's not the only one they're having. So tell me what to kind of like, speak to the people who have, like no knowledge of it. What, what is the benefit? Or why? Why put a new structure of poly amorous relationships versus like cheating or oh you know, like you know, be dating around. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I like have a lot of empathy for those people who are like what? Because I have been one of those people as well. Like, our society is so wired for monogamy and I, for one, definitely thought that was the only way for a long time, and I thought it was the only way in more of a way than most New Yorkers do. So we're all talking from from New York City right now. I used to live in England.
Speaker 1:And in England, start dating somebody, you start dating one person.
Speaker 3:My cat is getting involved with this conversation and I was like a little bit shocked to discover that in New York people date multiple people until they're ready to have the exclusivity conversation. I guess I also didn't watch enough sitcoms when I lived in England or I wouldn't know that already. But like, and yeah, I was talking to a British friend who moved here relatively recently and she was like, yeah, isn't everybody poly here? Because everybody's dating multiple people until they decide that they're not. But for me that's a little bit different. And I think it's different because there's this assumption at some point, when people start dating multiple people and then they have the exclusivity conversation, that like there is going to be an end goal of being with one person. Goal of being with one person, um, and that's a wonderful thing. But there is another way, which is to have the end goal to have either no end goal or to have the end goal of having closeness and and stable relationships that are mutually supportive. And I think for me, this has required me to sit down and talk to my partners about what is a partnership to you. What do you want out of this partnership, what do I want out of this partnership? But the assumption is not that you're going to end up with one person at the end of the day.
Speaker 3:And sometimes polyamorists and people in this community talk about maybe not being on quite the relationship escalator. I don't know, have you guys heard that phrase before? So the relationship escalator is the idea that in a monogamous relationship you have these milestones that you might want to hit. So you might start by dating and then you become exclusive and then you meet the parents and then you move in together and then you marry and then you have kids and so on and so forth, and if you're poly, you can do those things with one person, or more than one person as well, except the marriage piece, which, um is.
Speaker 3:That's a whole different topic that I don't know if I need or want to go into more depth about. Like, you can go through all of these steps, but it's not assumed that you're going to, and so I think one of the reasons I was drawn into this kind of lifestyle is because I never wanted all of those steps. Even in my monogamous relationships, I knew that I didn't necessarily want to live with that person I've actually never lived with a romantic partner, um and I didn't necessarily want to get married. And I knew I at some point I knew for sure I didn't want to have kids, and so it allows you to kind of operate in a different shape. Um, and I think the reason that we talk about the relationship escalator is because naming something allows you to make conscious decisions and choices about it instead of being carried along by it, and then you know you can choose to be on that or choose not to.
Speaker 1:We'll get a different expert for our next episode on bigamy, but um for now I do like this idea because when I think about because I was definitely one of those people who like dated around until the exclusivity conversation I like kind of made a point of it because it's like I'm not going to give exclusivity to any man unless he really wants me and makes that note. Um, but it is kind of this, like almost it's not competition, but like you're only going to take one man up that escalator and so you kind of have this like wide open, um sense of like okay, like like I'm going to date around but like ultimately I'm going to discard all of you and so, um, there, it doesn't. I don't know how naturally those relationships progress. It would be such a different experience to just like if I knew that somebody was going to I don't know how to say this exactly If I knew that I wouldn't just have to pick one person to make it forever with and that I wasn't going to make quick decisions like whoever I choose to be physical with, for instance, or like develop an emotional relationship with actually would maybe last for like as long as a friendship, then I think I would make pretty different decisions about who to do that with and how fast to take that relationship and it would also just be really interesting to be like, yeah, like I, you know I'm not necessarily going to take you up the escalator, but we're going to like hang out in the courtyard for as long as we want and like jump on the escalator if we want to, but not necessarily.
Speaker 1:And just yeah, have a natural kind of I don't know thing going with a person. It's kind of a cool idea. Yeah, kind of a cool idea. Yeah, um, you became poly around the same time that you, I feel like, discovered your own queerness?
Speaker 3:do you see these things as related? Uh, that's a great question that I ask myself all the time. Yeah, so I think the truth about my queerness is that I probably already always knew on quite a deep level, um about it, but I was so much in denial of it that I was making out with women, um, with the permission of my partner at the time, but wouldn't have said that we were poly, and I wouldn't have said that I was doing that because I was bi and that's a label that I now use um, and so I think I was. Yeah, I was really really deeply in denial about that for a really long time, and so it sort of took for me, I think, to meet myself, to meet the right person.
Speaker 3:I got into my first relationship with a woman. It felt very natural to me and I was kind of like oh yeah, I guess I've been like this all along. Oh yeah, I guess I've been like this all along, but at the same time, I guess I just never reckoned with it before. So, yeah, one question I ask myself is is it really better for me to be poly because I'm bi? Right, because I'm attracted to multiple genders. So bi doesn't necessarily have to mean two genders, like some people might also use the word pansexual I haven't used that much about myself, but it could also apply to me I'm like really attracted to the person rather than the gender that they have, and I think that gives me like a wide range and a lot of choice.
Speaker 3:And I don't think I have much of a physical type. I definitely have a type in the sense of how I like to engage with people on a sort of brain and emotional basis. But yeah, I think it is really nice, if you're bi, to be able to have more than one partner and be able to have partners of more than one gender and to be able to exercise that. But I also don't want to play into any like. I sometimes feel like I'm playing into a stereotype by doing this because I think there is very yeah, it's very weird to be bi.
Speaker 3:You know, you kind of get discrimination on all sides, like I think I think straight people just and and other queer people think I'm promiscuous and that I must, you know, just have no discrimination about who I am with and that like it's somehow more dangerous for me to be. But I've had all sorts of, I've heard all sorts of things about myself. That must be true because I'm bi. Over the years this has always perplexed me so much.
Speaker 1:These like this by you know, like these bi stereotypes. Um, why in the world would that mean that you're more promiscuous? What's the other one? Oh, the other one is that bi people don't actually exist. They're just gay and in denial or something. I've heard that so many times, straight men saying yeah, and then the other trope that, like you know, if you are like a man and your girlfriend is bi, then she's going to cheat on you with a woman, or like can't possibly be happy with just you. I hear that all the time as well. Um, it's just, it's a really incredible set of beliefs.
Speaker 3:It's bizarre because people don't go around saying oh, your partner's straight, they're going to cheat on you with another person of the same gender as you.
Speaker 1:Right, you're still even, I'm straight, but there's still four and a half billion other men that I could go for. Like, adding another four and a half billion people on top of that doesn't really mean that I'm going to be more likely to cheat. That's already way too many people to handle.
Speaker 3:So yeah, yeah. So, like I'm not more likely to cheat and in fact, you know I did. I did once cheat on a boyfriend, like a long, long, long, long time ago, when I was much younger, and I would never do that again time ago when I was much younger, and I would never do that again. Like yeah, like I did not feel good about myself for doing that and, um, I think I think that, like yeah, so I don't want to. I don't want to perpetuate any myths that, like, you need to be poly if you're bi because you somehow need more partners or you somehow are more promiscuous, or whatever. Everybody's different. Some people are more promiscuous which is also awesome, by the way, and there's nothing wrong with it um, but, like, everybody can be promiscuous. Everybody cannot be, um, it all depends on who you are really so, but for me personally, it is really wonderful for me to be able to engage with partners of multiple genders and to be able to have these different shapes of relationship be meaningful in their own ways.
Speaker 3:Describe myself as poly, I would describe myself as a relationship anarchist, in that I think that, and I've always felt this way that, like my romantic relationships, my friendships, my relationships with family members, whoever, none of them take precedence automatically because the kind of, because of the kind of relationship that they are. And so, you know, even back in the day when I was monogamous, I would have friends tell me how much they appreciated me still being there for them and making them feel like a priority, even when I was in a romantic relationship. And I have sadly lost a lot of friendships over the years with people who got into romantic relationships, especially straight men, like I mourn a lot of my friendships with straight men where for some reason I couldn't be friends with them after they got into a romantic relationship, especially once they got married. And, like. My personal belief system is that I think that everybody deserves to be a priority in their own again, like in an equitable way, in the way that they that they need.
Speaker 3:And I think the limiting factor for me then is not that I believe one kind of relationship is more important than the other. It's that it's my capacity really. But I will say there is one kind of relationship that I think if I had kids I would probably feel differently about that relationship with my kids. I. But I don't, I'm not in that position. So it's easy for me to say everybody's, you know, on some kind of even plane for me. I think if I had children, I I would feel differently probably.
Speaker 2:So tell us what this looks like for you when you to make it more you know, like something that people can picture. What does? What are these negotiations or rules, or what does it look like? You know what? What kinds of different needs do you find in different kinds of romantic partners, and how do you go about negotiating that, especially if people have different expectations like what does this look like on a daily basis?
Speaker 3:yeah, I think there's like a couple of jokes about poly people that we like spend much more time talking than we do anything else. That might be more fun than talking, um, and that we like have a massive scheduling issue all of the time and the google calendar is our best friend, or some form of calendar is our best friend. I guess I shouldn't plug google, but, um, uh, there's a little bit of truth to that, I think. So I think it requires I don't want to say this is on a daily basis, but certainly I just got out of a relationship of a number of years where we made a point of talking about what, what our wants and needs were on a semi-regular basis, and I don't think I had ever really done that in a relationship before we we actually carved out time to say, okay, what does this look like to you? Like, what does it mean to you to have a partner? What are you looking for in other partners? What are your boundaries? So we talk about boundaries a lot in the relationships that I have. Um, so there are additional considerations when you have multiple partners in terms of, like, people's emotional safety and people's physical and health safety, right?
Speaker 3:So one question you might ask a partner who has other partners is. It might be something as procedural as, like, you know, if I go like, are you my, are you my, emergency contact? Um, you know, can I rely on you to do that, um, or do you not have capacity for that because you have other partnerships? Um, you know, I have a partner who lives with a you know, who has a what they would call a nesting partnership with another person, and those people are, have raised a child together and have, um, you know, are one another's. Like, primary implies some kind of hierarchy in this case, but I think I'm accurate in using that phrase as far as that relationship goes. Um, so those, so those people, you know they may not have the capacity to be my emergency contact, like, maybe it's more appropriate for me to have another partner do that, or have a friend be that person for me. Um, my family will live in another country, which would make it very difficult for them to be my emergency contacts.
Speaker 3:Or, you know, you might want to talk about, like, how frequently do we want to spend time together? And really be explicit about that, because it's not assumed that I'll spend, you know, every single weekend with a partner. Even I haven't really believed in having a primary partner, but like an anchor partnership, a partner that I spend more time with, that I'm more involved with, where I've met their family members, my family know about them. It's also can be useful if you're poly to have a person that you can tell people about. That's your partner, because you don't always want to have that whole conversation with every single person you meet. It's a lot, um.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, there's all kinds of things that you might talk about there, like frequency of the time you spend together, but also like what are you comfortable with? Like, who are you? Who are you comfortable with me seeing? Um, is there any line that you draw? What protection are we going to use sexually? Um, how often are we going to get tested?
Speaker 3:Um, all of these things are up for negotiation in every relationship kind, but I found myself talking about them more frequently and checking in more frequently, and maybe that's just because I don't know if it's like a rule of being poly. Maybe it's just a result of being more drawn to people who are more communicative these days, um, but for me it definitely looks like, okay, maybe every three months we're gonna talk about how things are going and how we're feeling about things, whether we do want to shift, whether we do want to get on the relationship escalator anywhere. But with my more, my, maybe my less involved partnerships it might not look quite as structured as that. It might more look like just being able to sit down and have a chat about that as and when. But you don't necessarily need to schedule it.
Speaker 1:It's funny when I imagine being poly. Part of me sees this like, instead of the escalator, it's like wide open field where you just get to like explore and just you know, play and be you. And then part of me sees like a chore chart where it's just like so many, like boundaries to keep in mind and check-ins to have and like deep, heavy conversations, and I'm like'm like oh woof, like that feels really heavy and a part of it feels really light. Does that part ever exhaust you or is this?
Speaker 3:it sounds like it's one of the biggest draws yeah, I think I think the communication piece is a big draw. Um, yeah, it can be exhausting. I think, like taking into consideration, like multiple people's needs can be a lot, and I think one of the things that has been the biggest struggle for me is not so much sort of scheduling and planning and having the conversations, but just the things that come up that like there is no model for. So having somebody you know dealing with something or something surfacing for a partner that maybe, um, you wouldn't normally have to deal with in a monogamous relationship like a partner, for example, a partner disapproving of somebody that you see, or feeling like I'm saying, I'm saying you, but I can only really speak from, like personal experience. So like in my case, having a partner disapprove of, actively of, of one of my other partners, or the way that I engage with other partners. Um, it's not really in the playbook, it's not in any of the books that I read or the podcasts that I listen to, um, but it is a human thing, right?
Speaker 3:Jealousy, dealing with jealousy from a partner is a very human thing. Or feeling jealousy or feeling anxiety that your partner's partner, right, what they would call your metamor. Um, so your partner would be your paramour, right, the person that you engage with, and your metamor would be your paramours. Paramour, um, so, like the partner of your partner, like, how do they feel like I get a lot of anxiety around. Are they okay? Are they having a good time in this scenario? Do they know about me? What do they want to know about me? I, I feel like I do a lot of caretaking in my life in general, and so I'm drawn to caretaking this scenario as well, for better or worse. So I'm like are they, you know, is everybody all right here? Are they jealous? Are they upset? Um, I've had to deal with my own jealousy, of course. Um, because that's a thing like, probably people are not non-jealous, you know.
Speaker 1:I would love to hear how you have handled and evolved with jealousy, and also how you've, like developed compersion, just because I think that I'm good at not being super jealous. But I don't know that, I don't know that I have it in me to be genuinely happy for my partner, at least, like with somebody else. So, yeah, so just as an aside, like I didn't want to interrupt, but I also would love to hear about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think I was getting on a train of consciousness of like a whole list of things. So we can stop here for a minute and then maybe land on some more things. Then maybe land on some more um things. So I think compersion, um for those who haven't listened to one of these episodes yet, compersion is the it's, it's taking pleasure in your partner's pleasure or in another's pleasure, um, it's kind of framed as being the opposite of jealousy, um, in that you feel real joy in the, in the joy that somebody else is feeling and, specifically in this context, it's taking joy in your partner feeling love, connection, maybe having a physical relationship with somebody else, um, to the point of like, maybe even being present for that situation. As in some poly relationships, there's all kinds of dynamics, including a dynamic where you're actually around for some of that and you witness those two people interacting as a dyad and you feel joy for them.
Speaker 3:And I don't necessarily know how natural of an emotion that is, but I think I would say it probably is different for everybody yeah and so is jealousy um, and I do think I'm a person who naturally experiences less jealousy um, which in the past hasn't always been great for me, to be honest, like when I was being cheated on. I think the fact that I didn't feel a lot of jealousy meant that I was missing a warning sign or I was overlooking warning signs, because I was happy for that person to have a lot of independence and be doing their own thing and I gave a lot of space, and so that means that if somebody does want to do something not okay with that space, they can. And I have to say, when we did talk in that one relationship I mentioned, where the person said that they might want to be poly, the one person I really was not up for being poly with was the person that they were cheating on me with. I felt no compulsion for that person and I was like, yeah, this person does not mean me. Well, they feel they, they mean harm to me. Um, I sort of knew that and I was like I'm I'm open to being poly with another individual or individuals, but not this particular person. So I also think it's situation dependent a little bit. So I think for me, yeah, I haven't had a lot of jealousy and maybe hand in hand, when I did start getting into poly situations, I did feel a lot of compulsion before I knew what it was called.
Speaker 3:I did feel a lot of compulsion before I knew what it was called, um, and I think for me it's a little of just.
Speaker 3:I do feel a lot of joy and other people's joy and maybe that just makes me very lucky to have that like I don't know if I've cultivated it, um, and then there's also the piece that I have cultivated because it's important for me to engage in this lifestyle and try it out and see if it's for me in the long term and um, and then it's also, I think, been really.
Speaker 3:Oh wait, there was a third thing and I forgot what it was now, oh, maybe it'll come back to me um, because it's not just about trying it out, I think it's also oh, I know what it was, it was a communication piece.
Speaker 3:So, because communication has now become so important to me and transparency and honesty, like it's actually really nice for me to know what the people in my life are up to and hear their news and if that means hearing some details about a date that they went on and a thing that they did together or a place that they own together that they go to or whatever it is, or something a little bit more, you know, salty.
Speaker 3:Then that's like I have discovered that I'm up for hearing about that and that's a form of compersion'm up for hearing about that and that's a form of compulsion as well, in the sense that, like, it brings me pleasure to be included in the conversation and to know what's going on and for me that outweighs the feelings of jealousy I might have because they're doing that thing without me. But I also think compulsion comes with a partner or you know in in each situation who takes care of your feelings. Um, because I think a lot of jealousy and upset and the opposite, like lack of compulsion, for me has come when I haven't felt enough or I haven't felt like something was available.
Speaker 3:Like jealousy is often an emotion. I think that gives us information and the information might be like oh, I feel like I'm not enough for this person, or I feel like this person doesn't want to do this with me. Or I feel, you know, like it's often not really so much I don't want this person to be around another person. It's often not really so much I don't want this person to be around another person. It's more like, you know, even in a monogamous relationship, I might be like why does my partner always want to go on vacation with his guy friends and not invite me? And like that happened for me in a relationship right when they did invite me, oh my, my god, I did not want to be there at all.
Speaker 3:Like it wasn't good and I was like completely cured of my jealousy in that area because I was like, yeah, you go, I don't want to be part of this. You drink beer at 9 am in the morning. I can't handle that. Yeah, I said they're not two sides of the same coin, but they're definitely related to each other I'm wondering if the jealousy piece would be like the way you're describing.
Speaker 2:It makes sense, um, and I feel like a lot of people would feel that, and when, even thinking about, oh, I'm going to explore a polyamorous or open relationship, there is an inherent understanding that, yeah, you are not enough. Because what? Even by your definition of poly, you know, relationships is like I have different needs met by different relationships, and that that makes sense. On one level, I'm like, yeah, of course I have tons of different needs that I satisfy outside my marriage. At the same time, though, wouldn't that be tough to deal with if you're in, let's say, you have a couple of relationships, and then one of them, one of your paramours, or says oh yeah, I got another paramour because you're not satisfying this need and it's, you know, like I could imagine in like like a very, you know, like a imagine and like like a very, you know, like a jealous side of me. I'd be like well, if someone's actually looking for other partners and feel, feel needs, that's really gonna just tell me that I wasn't enough in that area. How do you deal with that?
Speaker 3:well, hopefully, you deal with it with a lot of compassion in in any situation and, like that is something that you know, you can say, yeah, I'm seeking somebody else because you're not enough. Or you could say, you know, hey, we've been married for like 20 years at this point and like we no longer have a sexual relationship. Um, like, how would you feel about you? Know, I value this about you and this about you and all of these things? You know you bring me so much joy and security. I love doing these things with you, but I also have a need. But this is a very extreme example, but it is one that you hear about. If you listen to you know Dan Savage or somebody's you know, advice, advice, column type of show, then you'll hear people dealing with these situations all the time. What are you going to do? Discard that person from your life, walk away just because you have a need that they're not meeting? Or do you negotiate that? And you say, look, it doesn't mean anything about you if I go and seek this somewhere else. Look, it doesn't mean anything about you if I go and seek this somewhere else. You also hear about it in the situation where somebody has a kink that their partner isn't into and again, it doesn't necessarily mean that that partner is not enough, it just means that that partner is not into that kink. And, like you can't really often control what you're into and what you're not into in a situation, but, you know, perhaps there's a world in which that person really needs to try that out, really feels like they would be fulfilled in having that If they can have a compassionate conversation with their partner and say, you know, especially in a poly situation where it's assumed you're going to do that anyway, especially in a poly situation where it's assumed you're going to do that anyway, right, and say you know this, this is, um, you know, this is something I really want to try and I found somebody who will go to these things with me and try this out with me. Um, and there's also another way to frame it, which is the way that I tend to frame it with my partners, is that it's not that not nobody's not enough, it's just that everybody's different um, and I just want to be able to be open to connections as they come along and able to make those connections um, and you.
Speaker 3:There does have to be a lot of care, so another thing that might be good to talk about at this point is the concept that, like, the new is always the shinier, the more alluring the better, and I think a lot of these emotions and concerns don't just come up around not being enough potentially, but also come up around well, what happens when you meet somebody new and you have all those butterflies and you're really, really into them and you're really excited about them and you have what is often called new relationship energy or nre there's lots of acronyms in this world for some reason, like new relationship energy is exactly what you think it would be, is the energy you have in a new relationship, and it's something that you sign away. When you sign into a monogamous relationship, you kind of give that up right, you might get a little bit of it if you're someone who has a sort of mutual agreement or not with your partner that you can flirt right, and flirtation is usually a socially acceptable way of exercising a little bit of new relationship energy, type feeling um. But if you're poly, then a socially acceptable way is to actually date somebody new and have those butterflies, and I do think if you're somebody who cares about your other partners, you have to take a lot of care of them in that situation. That's when a lot of emotions can arise, because of course, the new is always shinier and more exciting and more fun and more energetic. And you know, you're learning all these things and you're maybe even shaping yourself for that person a little bit. Right, it's hard not to shape yourself for a new partner.
Speaker 3:When you meet a new partner, be like oh yeah, I'm totally into museums, I go to museums all the time. You know, let's do that. Then, two years down the line, you're like yeah, I know, we haven't been to a museum for a year. I'm not really a museum person. I was into it because you were into it, you know. So, like that's something again that I think there just does have to be a lot of care about it. And in an ideal situation you should be able to raise that with somebody and say, hey, I've noticed you're spending a lot of time with so-and-so. Um, I'm beginning to feel a little bit left out, like maybe we could plan some time. You know, I'd like to see you twice a week and you know, I'm not asking you to see them less, I'm just asking you to make time for me.
Speaker 1:That would be a responsible way to handle that I think old relationship energy needs a rebrand because it's you know, it's so funny when you have it's like like yes, there's new relationship energy, but then that person who has like an anchor partner or nesting partner or whatever, will ultimately come home to that person.
Speaker 1:I mean that you know like we have become so threatened and I would be this would be my nightmares like the NRE, like you know, cropping up for my partner, and I don't know that I would feel compersion at all, but we feel so threatened by that.
Speaker 1:But it's like this sense that our, like, longer term relationships are not interesting or exciting when in reality, our longer term relationships are the people that we've stuck around long enough to build something with and that should theoretically be the more you know quote unquote threatening. So anyways, I don't know. I feel like there should be some sort of rebrand there. I liked in your notes that you sent over, though you said should we be threatened by our partner falling in love with somebody else, or is it possible to be in love with multiple people? And I went on a show where it is proven season after season that you can be in love with two people, but of course, on the Bachelor you ultimately have to discard one, because it is only acceptable to have a single partner, and so it is better to break the hearts of the other people that you've fallen in love with.
Speaker 2:Bachelor is almost like socially sanctioned, would you call it. I mean, it wouldn't be polyamory, it would be harem yeah, it sort of is a harem vibe.
Speaker 3:Um, personally I don't love a harem vibe as a concept for my own life, like I don't like the idea that one, that one person can have all the partners and other partners don't. So you know, on the one hand it'd be great to have a version of the Bachelor where everyone's queer and poly, but on the other hand there'd be no drama and everyone would be really happy.
Speaker 3:Um, and just talking for a while that's what I want for all of us. I want us to have no drama and be really happy. I mean also like, alas, being queer and poly does not spare you from drama. Drama, it's a human condition. Yeah, the harem vibe, you know.
Speaker 3:Equities speaking of equity, which is like clearly one of my favorite words, that hopefully we won't get banned for um, it's like, um, it's it's like yeah, if you're in a relationship with somebody else who gets to see other people, you should also be afforded the same um, and if you are in a relationship with somebody who wants to veto somebody that you're seeing, for example, because they think they're not good for you or they don't like them or they think that something that they do is not okay, then you also should have a power of veto over what your partner's partners, and often that doesn't happen right in these kinds of relationships. That wasn't what we were talking about, though I got distracted by it.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, one of the ways I do feel like compersion can be cultivated or lower jealousy can be cultivated is by changing your beliefs about what these things mean, and I love what you said about like jealousy gives you information. I feel like people who get really riled up with jealousy often only see one piece of information which is like I'm threatened and it's because of another woman or another man or whatever. Um, and therefore that must not be allowed to happen. Um, but one of the beliefs it seems like could be cultivated here is that love is not just reserved for one person. That's not necessarily threatening if your partner falls in love with somebody else.
Speaker 2:Well, here I'll, I'll, I'll argue the other side of like. Okay, let's say we've had had messages from people who said, like, okay, I am thinking about opening up the relationship, exploring polyamory, but like, when you open that door it might not be able to be closed again. So what if my partner falls in love? Has that new relationship energy and as, like almost a stereotypical, like husband falls in love with a nanny because she's new and bright and doesn't have all the baggage of the marriage right? It's like, how can you compete, quote, quote or how can you stay secure in the parts of your relationship you have and knowing that person won't just run off with the new shiny thing?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think those people are right in thinking that once you open it up, you probably can't close the door. But it's not because, in my mind, it's not because it's better or shinier or more threatening or any of those things. It's because the other people involved are human beings and I think a lot of times when people open up their marriages or they say that they're going to be poly, they're thinking well, you know, I need to take care of myself and my partner and my partnership, and they forget that the other people are real people who also deserve to have love and security and old relationship, energy once it develops, and connection and like.
Speaker 3:There's a reason why you can't go back if you have multiple partners because those those partners are not like in the bachelor.
Speaker 3:We've been taught that other partners are disposable, right.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, it is a risk that if you open yourself up, you're more likely to fall in love with somebody else.
Speaker 3:It's not the only way that you can fall in love with somebody else, as many of us painfully know, right, it can just happen when you're not trying to do it, um, but let's say that you do.
Speaker 3:Then that person is a whole person who is potentially in love, back and has needs and, and so one of the reasons I think you can't go back, why I couldn't go back easily, is because I value those people in my life and I'm not prepared to just say to them well, now I don't care about you, because I've made this person my priority, because that's not how I see people. But I do think like one of the reasons why I think open relationships can be so dangerous is because they still hold this central partnership as somehow being more important than the other human beings involved and like that would be dangerous for me. Like to get into a relationship with somebody where I knew that there was a risk that even if I did fall in love with me, they would set me aside because it was a threat to their relationship. I wouldn't want to engage in that dynamic at all. So for me I'm not very interested in being in a relationship with someone who's in an open relationship that's so interesting right, it's just risky for me yeah
Speaker 2:yeah, I think that's so interesting to think about, because I would even think that an open relationship feels safer, especially and, like I have an anchor and these other people are places that I could explore this kink or this other need.
Speaker 2:But I could always that this person is my number one.
Speaker 2:And now that you're saying this, I'm thinking about a friend who wanted to experience a threesome and when she started meeting and going on a date with this couple, um, it was.
Speaker 2:It was so complicated because it was very clear that the guy really wanted this and the girl was going along with it just to try to be, you know, like shake things up and spice, you know, but it was clear that it was like mostly driven by the guy, and then so she had to navigate that awkwardness and the jealousy that popped up, but also at the at the end, when the girl was too, um, was too like jealous or you know, she felt so uncomfortable that she was like, no, I don't want this. And then it was all about the couple kind of negotiating this and and my friend was left being like, okay, I'm a person like yeah, like I just went on this date and these two people are like, ew no, and I'm like um, I'm not an accessory that you could try out like I. This was very vulnerable for me and now I feel really bad about myself, so I'm gonna go. So it's just. It is interesting to think about how, like poly relationships respect that.
Speaker 3:These quote other people are like other people yeah, I don't know, all open relationships have this shape, right? Um, there's definitely this trope of the unicorn hunting couple, right. That, I think has a grain of truth to it, right, which is, you see, and if you go on dating, you know, sometimes I go on dating apps. I would say I spend more time, like, just like, looking on dating apps and doing anything about it. But, like you know, when I'm, when I'm there, I see couples who are looking for a third, you know, and the way that they're looking for a third often looks to me like, yeah, that third is just the accessory, basically that, like, they've made it very clear that their relationship is the priority that they are. You know that they're just looking for somebody to have fun with, and like, if you're looking for that, that's awesome and great and there's no reason why any of us can't just get involved in a thing that's fun, um, but I think if you go a little further and you open up beyond, you know, a casual thing, then then you run the risk of hurting that other person.
Speaker 3:Who's who's the third? Very, very much, um, and so like, for me as a potential third, right, I'm, I'm what they would call solo poly, so I live by myself. I don't currently have an anchor partner, um although that might change for me maybe, you know, depending who I meet. So right now I could end up being that person, and so for me I'm like you know, I I'm a have a little bit more scrutiny around that, and if I do want to get involved with a couple, I would rather get to know them one at a time as individuals, develop my own relationships with those people.
Speaker 1:I was unicorn hunted once and it did kind of suck. I mean, it was this couple who were thinking about being open but they weren't thinking about being poly, I don't think. But that wasn't totally communicated. But um, the problem was I'm not bi and so the girl and I couldn't have that relationship, and so then there was jealousy, but like I did have feelings for the guy and attraction towards the guy, and so then that kind of got messy and then we just all tried to be best friends and that kind of worked. But yeah, ultimately, like I'm not in contact with either of them anymore and it is kind of a bummer and it was difficult to navigate. So I guess I was a unicorn hunted.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it is a tricky one, but I think I want to revisit for a second, because you did ask explicitly about falling in love with another person and like is that possible?
Speaker 3:I mean, we've just answered that question with the bachelor example right? Yes, it's absolutely possible. I think many of us have been in love with more than one person, um, at one time. You know, does that give you the right to engage with both of those people? Potentially, if you could negotiate that situation right, there's sort of no reason why why you couldn't if you were poly um, is it a threat to another human being for to be in love? I think this is like a cultural thing. That is the same reason why I found myself and I'm sure I'm not the only person who's found themselves discarded by friends who fell in love to some degree. Right, it's. If.
Speaker 3:If you think that falling in love is somehow a better relationship than the like deep, long lived, like grand romance of friendship or the like absolutely earth-shattering, beautiful love of a family member, then yeah, yeah, you are going to start treating people as if they're not enough and as if it's a threat to them that you fall in love.
Speaker 3:If you think the person that you fall in love with is somehow on a pedestal and better than everybody else, which is now, I think, some true feelings that I have coming out here and I'm trying not to sound judgmental because I don't like to judge other people, but, like I do think that, yeah, if you feel that way, then the person that you fall in love with is a threat to not just a romantic relationship you have, but any relationship that you have. And so one thing to think about when you think about falling in love is that that love is not this isn't a zero-sum game, and love is not a limited resource. Time is, but love doesn't have to be a limited resource. There's no reason why I can't cultivate all of the loves in my life, as long as I have time for those to cultivate those loves.
Speaker 1:I do. I am seeing how it's such a radical shift in perspective because my like being steeped in monogamy forever has meant that, like, the person who gets the most time from you is the person you are most in love with. So it's like if I just feel like, if I feel the most love, then I must like prioritize and go in that direction. But I can imagine a situation where, like, I feel really intense in love feelings with somebody, but that is not the best partnership and so if you don't have to choose, it's kind of like okay, maybe I actually spend more time with a better partnership, that the person who's more collaborative with me, right, who I also love but then I can experience these like in love feelings with another person If I just snip that that like thread a little bit.
Speaker 2:My last question is how does how does building a family work, like, how do you see it? That was an interesting point that you brought up earlier about a poly relationship where kids are raised Like how do they do that? Like, who are the parents who are allowed to be involved in making decisions for the kids? You know, upbringing, like yeah.
Speaker 3:So again, I think this is a much bigger question than in a poly relationship. Who's involved, to be honest? Um, so, but let's start there. So I mean, I don't know because I've never done it myself, um, but from what I can tell, all shapes are possible. So it's possible that the people who are the biological parents or like the parents that like were most involved in the creation of the kid or kids, are the ones who live with the kid and raise the kid or kids, and then others partners may be not involved at all. Right, they might just be involved in the adults lives and and not involved at all.
Speaker 3:Um, and actually, if I was in a new relationship with anybody with kids, I would want to be really careful about how I met those kids, um, and how I formed relationships with them. You know, I have been in the situation where I had a monogamous partner with a kid and I did form a relationship with a kid and when we broke up, it was that was the thing that hurt me the most and I can only imagine, you know, how the kid felt in that scenario. So I think being very careful about that, for sure, but there are definitely situations in which multiple adults can raise kids. So the direct experience I have is not with romantic relationships but with a friend who I've known for most of the time that I've lived here in New York, which is a long time, and I would consider myself to be involved in raising her kids in ways that she chooses and when she needs support or when I feel able to give support or not even needs, that's like a very strong word for like she, you know I'm in her life. Her kids know me really well. I've stayed over with them when she's had to travel. I've, you know, taken my part in their lives in the same way that people do with their nieces and nephews.
Speaker 3:So I think that like it can look any shape, in the same way that any village that's raising kids can look. And I think again, this like shouldn't be radical, but maybe it is because because, especially in the USA, there's been such a premium placed on the nuclear family and the idea that a family is two adults and some number of kids doing pretty much everything together and then potentially paying for other services and using school services. Um, but like most of us who've seen any other kind of shape know that that's not the best way to do things right, that we might want grandparents, we might want other family members, we might want friends. You know what about if you break up with your primary partner or your monogamous partner and it's just you like, are you just going to do everything by yourself or are you going to, like you know, welcome the support of other people? So I don't think it's dissociated from reality in any way to be poly and have kids.
Speaker 3:Um, like, does that mean you might make different choices about your time? I'm sure. So I think that, um, yeah, I have a lot of people who I've met who have had real difficulties, um, in poly situations, and a lot of the time those difficulties were because it wasn't true poly, and a lot of the time those difficulties were because it wasn't true poly, and this is a really tricky one, I think.
Speaker 1:So I think some red flags are.
Speaker 3:if somebody says that they're poly, their partner or partners should be able to talk to you. So you could technically like if one of my partners wanted to take on a new partner and that person didn't quite believe them, I would talk to that person and reassure them in some way that, like this is okay with me, so I can't see why that wouldn't be possible elsewhere as well. So I think someone who's claiming they're poly but isn't willing to give you access to their partners their poly but isn't willing to give you access to their partners, it's either not poly or they might be in a situation um, that we mentioned before don't ask, don't tell, don't ask, don't tell yeah um, and like, if they're truly in a don't ask, don't tell, then you kind of do have to respect that.
Speaker 3:For me personally, don't ask, don't tell is not a very comfortable place to be. I don't necessarily want to know nothing, but some people do find it more comfortable to know nothing if they're dealing with jealousy or judgment or some other situations. So it's not a catch-all, like you can't necessarily solve it.
Speaker 1:Um, I think also, the problem is like there was a guy who told me he was in a don't ask, don't tell kind of relationship and then we hooked up and then I found out, no, their marriage was not open yeah and I don't know how you avoid that with don't ask, don't tell.
Speaker 3:I don't think you can yeah, I don't think you can unless you set a personal boundary.
Speaker 3:That don't ask, don't tell, isn't for you um but even then, like I don't know, like at some point I've ended up in that situation with somebody just because they were so uncomfortable with hearing about who I was dating and ultimately it didn't work for me to be in that situation because I just didn't feel that safe in a situation where I couldn't know who they were seeing and and I couldn't tell them at least like a little bare minimum. You know they don't have to know every detail of everything. So I don't think you can protect yourself from that, just like you can't protect yourself in a monogamous relationship from being cheated on.
Speaker 3:All right, all you can do is gauge how much trust you have with that person and try and cultivate as much communication as you can and support them, and you'd hope they'd come to you if they were unhappy and say you know, I'm unhappy and I want to do something about it, rather than them going to somebody else when they're unhappy. So I don't think there's no way to protect yourself fully in any relationship and the question is always going to be do you, do you want to take the risk and have the love, or do you want to protect yourself and not? And those two choices are both very risky choices ultimately, um, but I do think you can ask the right questions. So if somebody is poly, they're more likely to be versed in having conversations about boundaries, about agreements that you can have. They might be more open than a monogamous person even to sitting down and saying okay, this is the structure that I have.
Speaker 3:They might be more open to having you interact with or talk to their other partners. They may even love it. They may really want you to have what they would call kitchen table dynamic, where you actually can sit down and have a cup of tea together and get to know each other. So I think it can be helpful to ask those questions and feel it out for sure, the other red flags to me are kind of hierarchy in general, like even if I was at the top of the hierarchy it would be a red flag for me because I don't really agree with it. Um, I don't think that it's a very ethical place to come from that you make one person more important than others um but again, coming from my judgment free or trying to be judgment free zone, it's not actually a red flag for everybody, right?
Speaker 3:so I think knowing your own red flags is maybe a more. You know, for some people being unicorn hunted might not be a red flag at all they find?
Speaker 3:exactly what they're looking for. And fantastic um. Being able to engage with people who are for me, who are at least willing to examine the structure of their relationships, at least open to having each dynamic be its own thing, who are willing to be tested and safe, is important for me. So I'm not telling anyone that they have to do anything, I think. But I think defining for yourself your own boundaries in a way that maybe you haven't have to do anything, I think, but I think defining for yourself your own boundaries in a way that maybe you haven't had to do before, if you haven't gone into that poly space before, maybe having your own agreements with yourself would be one way to navigate it. Like what's a deal breaker for me, what matters to me?
Speaker 1:amazing. Thank you so much for coming on, um, I wish I didn't have like 15 more questions, but, um, maybe we'll continue this conversation another time. So, um, I really appreciate it. I've you know some people are afraid to not be anonymous or to come and talk about it, and I do appreciate that you are not playing into the shame that shouldn't be associated, in my mind, with this. Um, and do you have any resources that you would like to share with our audience?
Speaker 3:Well, I guess I should first say if you're listening to this and you didn't know this about me, uh, uh, it is a really hard conversation to have. I've experienced a lot of judgment sometimes. I just don't have this conversation with people, even if I care about them a lot. So, um, it doesn't mean anything about you if you haven't heard this about me before this podcast, but I do think it's important to be open. There's nothing wrong with this. There's no shame in it. Um, yeah, I mean there are so many.
Speaker 3:Maybe I can send a list that you can share around. I mean, I started by reading the Ethical Slut. That was the first book that I read. It's not a perfect book, but it's one of the early books about polyamory that really does start to open things up. There's a lot of other books out there that all have their own merits as well. I think a lot of people prefer Polysecure as a book, for example. There are a lot of great content creators on social media that I can't think of off the top of my head, but I can send you all a list to share around as well.
Speaker 3:Um, I learned a lot from dan savage's podcast, to be honest. Um, he covers all sorts of topics, including poly and non-monogamy issues, that people come in with. So I also recommend, if you're a podcast lover which you probably are, if you're listening to this to check that out. But, um, to check that out. But yeah, I'll send a list because there's a long one and you know, I think doing your own research and not relying on your partner or partners to be the ones to educate you is always good.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Well, little Helpers, if you'd like to give us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, we would appreciate it and for now, we'll see you next week by accessing this podcast. I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this podcast. Featured in this podcast, the information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment, and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the Thank you certify. Any information, product, process, service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement.