A Little Help For Our Friends

The Cost of Anxious Attachment: When Someone's Insecurities Make You Question Your Worth

• Jacqueline Trumbull and Kibby McMahon • Season 5 • Episode 147

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Do you ever feel like you're walking on eggshells around someone who constantly needs reassurance? In this episode, we tackle anxious attachment from a different angle - not just what it feels like to be anxiously attached, but how that attachment style can impact the self-esteem and identity of those on the receiving end.

Drawing from personal experiences, we explore how anxious attachment manifests beyond just seeking love and reassurance. When someone constantly questions whether you love them enough, it can lead to profound questions about your character: Am I really selfish? Am I incapable of loving properly? We unpack the phenomenon of "projection," where anxiously attached people might interpret neutral actions through their lens of insecurity, creating narratives that shift how you see yourself. We also address how kernels of truth can be exploited to create damaging narratives - how normal human traits can be weaponized to support an anxious person's fear that they're not loved enough.

For both those with anxious attachment patterns and those on the receiving end or "the avoidant attached" folks, we offer practical strategies. Rather than pathologizing either side, we emphasize how understanding these dynamics can lead to healthier connections where both people's identities remain intact. 

**Do attachment insecurities mean blow-up fights in your relationship? We made something just for you: A guide to "De-Escalating Emotional Explosions."

**We have something really exciting coming up...Our KulaMind "From Chaos to Connection" course and community launches July 14th! There's a limited number of spots to keep the group intimate, so book a free call to apply.

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Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hello, little helpers. Today we are going to go back to attachment styles. I know everybody loves attachment styles. We, of course, are a bit critical. We try not to be so categorical about this. So we're going to talk, I think, less like this is who you are if you have an attachment style that is anxious, and more like how these different relational patterns can influence the people you love. And today's topic. We're going to talk about anxious attachment, but not just what it's like for the person with anxious attachment, but what it's like for the loved one and some patterns that people with anxious attachment have that can cause bad feelings in the loved ones and maybe even self-esteem issues in the loved ones. So, kibbe, I'm going to kick it over to you for Kula Mind.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah. So if you are noticing so, we're going to talk a lot about anxious attachment and people who tend to pursue connection, who tend to fight for it and sometimes aggressively, sometimes, you know like, in ways that are unhealthy, and strategies, especially the ones that we talk about. Check out Kula Mind K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom. That's our platform where we basically help you with how to navigate intense emotions in relationships. So giving you tips on how to actually set boundaries and regulate emotions, regulate your partner, support your partner without losing yourself. Two exciting things coming up for that. One is that we made a freebie, a free guide to de-escalating emotional explosions. So taking a lot of the tips that we talk about here and making it a handy dandy guide. If you have a partner or other loved one who tends to explode with emotion, get really intense, maybe get really angry, there are strategies to de-escalate that conflict. So I'll link that in the show notes and also announcing that we are launching the community on July 14th and starting a course in that community called From Chaos to Connection. So it's a whole course on all the things that we talk about and we give really in-depth, hands-on, practical help with these strategies and as well as a whole bunch of more resources for you. So, if you're interested, KulaMindcom, K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom, and I'll link it in the show notes.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Amazing. Okay, I'm going to be honest and say that this topic was a little bit of a personal one for me. Like, I had an interaction recently with my best friend and it just brought up some stuff for me and it made me start to wonder. Okay, I'm going to stop being so cryptic. Basically, as we all know, I tend to take other people's feedback of me very seriously and have, through the years, claimed certain things about myself that might be a little bit unfair, like that I'm narcissistic. Avoid it.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Um, um, a gold digger, what else? That one is true, sort of, but the other ones maybe not so much. Um, you know, like, if somebody says I'm like emotionally immature or something, and I'm like, oh no, am I, instead of basically saying like, look at all the evidence to the contrary you're, you're okay, um, and you do care about other people. This is evidenced by all sorts of things, um. So, basically, what happened was I had a conversation with my best friend who would describe herself as having like an anxious or avoidant or sorry, an anxious or disorganized attachment style, and she was feeling insecure and this is not an event session about her, because I think she was, like, perfectly skillful in all sorts of ways, but she was feeling insecure and this is not an event session about her, because I think she was like perfectly skillful in all sorts of ways, but she was feeling insecure and about other things unrelated to me, but then, I think, wrapped around to feeling insecure about whether I like cared about her enough or wanted to spend time with her.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

And she dug up evidence for this and said things that I'd heard from previous people. So at first I was like, oh, my God, I'm hearing this thing again. Like she said you only contact me when you want help. And it was like, oh, you know, like it's sort of an accusation of like you know, you never invite me to things, like I don't really know if you care about me.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Um, and this was an interesting case because, you know, I'd heard some of these things before, but in this case it was like wildly off base from reality in a way that I can very clearly see, and so it was a lot more clear to me that this had very little to do with me and more to do with her. But it just made me wonder, like these things I've heard about myself, is that truly about me or is that a behavioral pattern of maybe some of the people around me Um, and some of it may be true of me and then I started thinking about our recent episodes with like the pursuer withdraw dynamic and how the withdrawer kind of always winds up feeling like they can never do anything right or they're not good enough or something wrong with them, and that is a way that I have sometimes felt in my relationships, and so that is the inspiration for this topic inspiration for this topic.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, it makes sense. So I think, yeah, as we were saying before, it's really common for people to want to categorize yourself in like anxious or avoidant. Are you an avoidant or are you an anxious? And I really find that so much of the internet talk about those two different types of people mutually exclusive is anxious people just want love desperately, and avoidant people don't want love, they just are selfish. I think that's not really fair because people can vary. Right, you could be anxious in some relationships and avoidant in others. Right, you could be anxious in some relationships and avoidant in others. And it doesn't always talk about why someone's you know chasing or avoiding, right, like it could be that the avoidant attachment is about avoiding conflict, not necessarily love. So I think there's a lot of like positive stuff around anxious attachment, but I think you know talking me, talking about my background with my mom and you with you know different interactions. I think there are some downsides to an anxious attachment style. So I think this was this was like an interesting topic for us to chew on.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I will say I will say I think that you are very openly, in a good way, like open about your narcissistic traits and I'm saying that because everyone has narcissistic traits, I definitely do and you're very much like I like things that are very flashy, I like you know, like, um, living the high life. I like being wined and dined. I, you know like, and you ask for help in really direct ways. That might be unusual for people who are, like, people pleasers, right so, and there are times when you are so you're less effusive than other people that you know with your emotions. So I know that you care deeply for people, but it might not come across in your everyday language, right? So I think, like, just as just to be like, there's a kernel of truth to these things, and I think people's reactions to that, you know, in terms of what it brings up for them, adds on to this pathologizing for you of like, oh, I'm bad Right.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

So I mean, this was a situation and I know that I do those things this was a situation where I asked for help for probably the first time in 10 months and the other time I'm not even sure if I'd asked her if she had offered, but I this is not a person I ask for help for a lot, mostly because it's a long distance friendship, it Um but I had like watched her dog for like two, five day periods in a row, like in between these.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

So it's like this is like a situation where you know what I mean. So it was just, it was a really weird. And then I actually followed up. I was like I you know, I've heard this before Like, can you tell me why you said that? Like, can you tell me other examples when I've asked you for help? Um, and this is where she was really skillful. She was like you know, it's probably like my anxiety coming in and like telling me a particular story.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Um, and I know that there are some people I've asked for help more than others, but it's just overall. I feel like if somebody asked me for help, I'm there. I try to like I don't know like give emotional support to all of my friends. Um, and yeah, the effusiveness is an interesting kind of call. It's like Americans are like we have to say I love you to everybody all the time, Um, and like be really effusive with that language, and I don't know that's an interesting one. It's not something that's in my family's culture like we don't really say I love you to each other, and so there is this sort of expectation that, um, I think especially like women do that and um, I guess it can get read in a particular way that I don't. But I also think that there's been this pattern of like there will be the kernel of truth and then I'll say the kernel of truth and then the person who maybe is anxious exploits that kernel of truth, like that was very true in my past relationship. It was interesting.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I heard, you know, I heard Dax Shepard. I was listening to his podcast today, armchair expert, and he said something like this is the he's like this is a terrible, gross thing to admit, but I like long for the admiration of high status people and I think this is something that Dax and I have in common is that we are willing to say the honest, gross thing. And yet I'm like why is it gross? Of course we long for the admiration of high status people, like we are a social hierarchical species. The whole idea of high status wouldn't exist if people didn't have ambition to be that, and being admired by those people is part of like being accepted and then kind of like obtaining that status.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So I don't know, that's just sort of an aside, I guess will project insecurities, right, and what that means is that whatever we bring in, like all of our beliefs, like I'm not good enough, I'm not loved, I'm not whatever, um, these, it's kind of like wearing glasses. Wearing these, like you know, like colored glasses, you're going to see everything through that. And for you, for, let's say, saying something like that, like, um, I like the admiration of high status people. Well, with really extreme narcissism, that also comes with um other bad stuff. Right, like, if you only care about high status people, then that means sometimes, when it goes awry, that person's going to be like really dismissing of anyone else who's not high status. Now, it's not public, it's just healthy narcissism or healthy, you know, being a human being, if you like the admiration of high status people and you're really kind to everyone who isn't Right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So I think that when we talk about projecting, if, if any of your qualities, let's say like less effusive, less like affectionate verbally, of your qualities, let's say like less effusive, less like affectionate verbally, if I then project my insecurities into that, like, ah, she's not saying over and over again I love you, hey, honey, I love you, and blah, blah, blah. That means she doesn't love me because I'm unlovable Right. That's projecting, that's adding the suffering on top of your behavior, right.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Well, yeah, and I think what's happened sometimes is that I will say things like I want the admiration of high status people. And if you are anxious and you're worried that you, that this other person, doesn't love you, then you're going to go. Maybe it's because I'm not high status enough. Like you know, you said this thing about not about wanting the admiration of high status people. I don't have, I don't have high status. Maybe that's why you don't love me, because you're, you're a problem of some sort, um and and then yeah, and then that person's like, oh shit, like I guess it's a bad thing to want admiration from high status people and I'm like, I'm a narcissist because of it. There's something wrong with me.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, and like that's come up in our friendship, friendship too, I think, when we were getting to know each other. Um, I and I have a core belief like people don't care about me. Um, unless I'm helpful, I'm useful. They don't only kind of want to use me. I was worried about that in our dynamic, when you know, and I was like, oh my god, like do you only care about me because of this right that's me inserting my insecurities onto you?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

um, so easy for that to be done right, right, right, because you're like, oh great, could be useful, right like it, and we kind of fell into that. And then it's like, oh, but the gap, the, the, the things that are not said, is it? Is that the only reason why you care about me, right? That's the part that that my insecurity is like was projected onto you, um, but, yeah, well, it that that my insecurity is like was projected onto you?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

But yeah, well, it's an interesting question of like, do we? I mean, this was not what I meant to talk about today, but do we say the honest things that other people don't say? This is what I like about Dax Shepard is he will do that all the time, but it does, I think, because there's a low frequency of saying those things. Like like, saying I like people who are useful to me is a true statement of almost anybody, but it's a decontextualized statement that most people don't say, and so it sounds narcissistic. But of course we like people who are useful to us. I mean, and so it sounds narcissistic, but of course we like people who are useful to us. I mean, why wouldn't we Right? I also like people who are not useful to me. You know, it's just so. It's like I don't know.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

There's this weird how much do you shape your behavior to avoid, like that kind of assumption about yourself? Yeah, yeah, I think that's a choice, and this is where you know we're talking a little bit more about identity and how people see you at. This is the choice right, like we can choose to say unsavory things and or knowing that it will lead to rejection or social like judgment or whatever. It's up to us, whether if we want to be totally honest about it or like like, for example, if I say I love it when I'm the most accomplished person in the room, right, like I don't say that, like you know that about me.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I don't say that out loud because you know, like people who say that it's like no, but like, but I think, what then then I would?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

what I would hate is then for people to assume that I devalue other people because of that or I, I, you know I have like negative things about that, but really, like you know, it's not really about they would assume that I enjoy being superior to others, but I think I enjoy being seen, like you know. So I think it's like right how if I explain all of that, then it's okay.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

But if I just say that I like being the smartest person in the room, like I don't want the other assumptions that are come with it, so I kind of make a choice about how I show that to people. So yeah no.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, whatever this is, this is a bit off topic in general.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, the topic doesn't have to be about whether Jacqueline is indeed, um, an avoidant narcissist or not, but like the idea that I think we do tend to pedestal anxious attachment because it's a sympathetic, uh, it's all about, like, I just want, like I just want love and reassurance and to be connected, and I just don't know if you love me, and so there's like a vulnerability to it that I think is attractive to people and so, like, like, you will always, um, criticize the book attached because it's like, oh, secure people are amazing.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Anxious people are just oh, and then it's important that people are like monsters, um, and I think that that um does a bit of a disservice because it, I think, in a way reinforces, I think, it. I think the only thing it tells people with anxious anxiety or anxious attachment is that they need to just cool it a little bit on the reassurance seeking, because it's annoying or because it'll push their avoidant, their mean avoidant, you know, like a partner away and oh no, then you won't get love. And I don't think it puts enough attention to the ways in which people with anxious attachment seek reassurance in that are ineffective.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Right, right. I think that then what we were, you know, to loop in, what we were talking about is then what who's tasked, who's burdened with the task of changing, like who's wrong and needs to change right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Like you know, as we're like diving deep into the implications of anxious attachment, just so if people don't know, anxious I mean the attachment theory talks about. You know it's rooted in how do kids learn to feel safe with this secure attachment, with this attachment figure with our mom or caregiver, right? And the idea is that in distress, when there's a threat, when there's fear, kids naturally should come like closer to the attachment figure, the mom, right? But they're, they're orienting themselves to the attachment figure based on like how do I get safe? How do I feel safe? What's going to get me safe? Going to mom or saying away from mom, right?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So when you're talking about anxious attachment, it's also called preoccupied, anxious. Preoccupied, this is when the caregiver and it's still bad, right, like it's still not secure, when the caregiver is inconsistent or rejecting or abandoning, the kids learn oh, in order for me to get safe, I got to cling on to this scarce resource. I got to cling on to mommy's skirt and never let go because I don't know if she's going to be there, right? So it comes from that, that caregiver not being like a predictable source of safety. So that leads to a lot of like, as you're saying, reassurance seeking like someone being like are you there? Are you there, mom? Are you there? You there, mom? Are you there? Boyfriend, are you there? Do you love me? Do you love me? Reassure me, because I'm not sure that you're actually going to be there, right? So it comes from. It comes from like a learning history that's real, that leads to maybe a core belief of you know, you gotta, you gotta fight for love. You gotta fight for the person that you love.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Absolutely, otherwise it won't be there, right? I think it is a totally, I think it is sympathetic. I mean, you know, and I've been in relationships where I feel like I have to get reassurance. So this is not like a let's bash people with anxious attachment. Um, because like A you know it's not you might be anxiously attached broadly, or in particular relationships like because and sometimes it is because other people are legitimately making you anxious.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

But I think the added element of projection is important to talk about, because if it were, just, do you love me? Do you love me? Can you tell me that you love me 500 times a day? That would be annoying but it wouldn't warp the self-esteem of your partner. And I think that that anxious attachment can warp the self-esteem of the partner. That's why we have the pursuer-withdrawer dynamic, where the withdrawer winds up actually having kind of messed up self-esteem sometimes. And it's because I think what can happen all the time, or a lot of the time, is it's not just hey, I'm feeling insecure right now. Um, I know this can be frustrating to you, but I was wondering if you could just like assure me that you love me. I think more often it's why don't you call me Do you even care about me? God, you're inconsiderate. Oh, and like, or like, hey, um, I noticed that, like in this case it was you never invite me to things and I don't, and that. And then I wonder if you even care about me and like, why don't you have told you before I want you to invite me things? And then I was like I've actually invited you to like six or seven things and listed them out, and she was able to say, oh, you're right, and I declined all of those Right. So it's like To be able to say, oh, you're right, and I declined all of those Right. So it's like there is a.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Sometimes people will seek reassurance by making an argument that includes accusations, because that's what's going, that's what ruminating is Right. You're like building the argument in your head. You're chewing over like, oh, like you know, I like in this case it was because I didn't answer phone and I was like, oh, she didn't answer the phone, that's probably because she doesn't care about me or I'm annoying her and she doesn't. And then, yeah, like, when's the last time like we hung out? Or when's the last time, you know, she invited me to go on a very specific outing with her.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

You know something like that, and you kind of build this case and then you hurl it at the other person and it's like, oh God, like okay, I've been trying to do all these things but clearly it's not enough. Am I good at relationships? Is this a problem that I have, like, am I inconsiderate? Am I selfish? I don't know. And now I'm backing away from the relationship because it makes me feel overwhelmed or suffocated or being, or like I'm bad at things. And now I really am exhibiting avoidant traits, and now it's we're in this cycle.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Pursue, withdraw. Yeah, I mean, I think that you're talking about this one level of this anxious attachment, reassurance seeking it could get to bigger levels and more dangerous levels. Right Of, straight up, you know abusive behaviors, right Like, you know they don't talk about this in the book attached. But jealousy controlling behavior, right Like, where were you? Like you have to tell me everything about where you you know who you spent you spent it. I'm going to put location tracking on your phone, right, that's. That's a form of reassurance seeking um in ways that are like force the other person to do that. So I mean, there is research showing that um people with anxious attachment are do have a lower self-esteem, I think also avoidant as well, but low self-esteem and it really it can erode the quality of the relationship, right Like, if someone is constantly.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

It's like, you know, if we take that analogy of these core beliefs and insecurities, are these colored glasses? And you put on the color orange and you're like that's orange, that's orange, that everything is orange, and the other person's like no, just that one traffic cone, it's just orange, everything else is normal. Right, Then you're fighting against an image, a narrative, that is not true, that's not like reflective of all the truth, it might be their history that you know they grew up in an orange house. I don't know this analogy is going awry, but like you were basing your current reactions on past traumas or events, and that's when the rejection can get dangerous. It's like totally disregarding what's what's reality right now.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean I this will be the last of my personal examples, but when I went on, dear Shandy, people on like online would talk like this, like still talk about this, right, they're like she sounds really difficult to be with.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Because basically, he was saying like he gets jealous when she hits on other people and like she says that she has the right to flirt as much as she wants, with no regard to his feelings, has the right to flirt as much as she wants, with no regard to his feelings, and it's like what actually happened, right, is that I smile at people and like to have engaged conversation.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

He saw that as flirting. He told me that I am flirtatious and that this is a problem and that I'm hopelessly flirtatious, right, and I refused to change my behavior too much, although I did change it a lot and then I went online and told people myself that I'm a huge flirt and, you know, need male attention and that you know, and I don't know, that this is like a particularity I have in relationships, and the kernel of truth was that, like you know, I had always been flirtatious, but that didn't mean like discussing explicit content with people and I did like hanging out with men, and of course I like male attention, and so there's ability to find the kernel of truth and then exploit it, but really that's like anxiety and jealousy coming in. But you can make me, can I mean?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

what? Even even as you'd explained it now, it's still biased, like I would say that he was way more flirtatious with other people than you were for sure at the time.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I'm just, I'm just yeah you were.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

You were like you know, being like friendly with your friends, and he was like outright flirting with other people, so but it like that, that that constant void that he could never fill right where he was, like it doesn't matter if you were literally like chained in a bedroom, like it's still. He still felt that I'm not, I don't get the secure love that I'm looking for and blaming you for it. Right, like making it about your character, which is really the mindfuck really.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Right, but right exactly. But if you have a void and you are constantly telling your partner that they don't love you, or you're constantly pointing out evidence that they don't love you, then they are going to start wondering if there's something wrong with their ability to love, and I think that that's a huge problem. Yeah, and I also think there's an answer for it. You know, like I think if you're anxiously attached, that's okay, and I also think you can seek assurance. It's going to annoy your partner at some point, right, but I think that there are ways that we can talk about of, like, how to skillfully do this.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, I think the the problem comes when any of us can't own our shit, like when we can't take accountability. Then what happens is that you put the full force blame on someone else and that person then takes that in and remember that. Not remember, but like that. We develop as human beings. We develop our sense of self and identity through our interactions with other people. I mean, we'd love to act like we just find our sense of self by like taking me time and reflecting on who we want. But so much of what we care about what we do, how we relate to others, is based on our experiences with other people, and it's called like the looking glass effect, where you say, oh okay, my parents are acting like I'm funny, I'm funny right, you start to learn how you relate to other people and your, your role in society.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And if someone is, especially if you're in the phase of, like, developing your sense of self, if someone comes in saying, why don't you love me more, why don't you act, why are you so rejecting, you go, oh, I can't love, yeah, I'm not affectionate. And then you might fall into that too right, like you might end up dating more people who have anxious attachment because they kind of confirm that, that sense of self, and you might act, start acting in ways like that.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I think it's also like we. You know, we pay more attention to negative feedback from others and you're going to get more negative feedback from people with insecure attachment styles than the secure people around you. And so it's likely that you discount evidence or feedback from securely attached friends and family and you overemphasize from insecure people, and so the person with anxious attachment might feel powerless, but they actually may have a tremendous amount of power in the relationship powerless, but they actually may have a tremendous amount of power in the relationship. I think another habit of anxiously attached people is people pleasing, and this can look like having no boundaries. But I think a thing happens with people who have really poor boundaries is that they don't actually have poor boundaries 100% of the time. They can vacillate wildly between having no boundaries and then having like really rigid boundaries. And this happens because if you don't have boundaries and you, for instance, constantly help other people or constant like.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I have a patient who I'm thinking of, who you know like, without giving any details, let's just say she was kind of raised to like be completely self-sacrificial and even if somebody treats her like shit, she'll help them, She'll like bend over backwards for them, but obviously, over time, this is going to erode her and whoever let's I won't talk about her specifically, but like just a person with a subtype right it's going to erode them and make them feel unloved, unlovable, taken advantage of, and then that can create a big reaction where, like, let's say, the next time they're asked for something suddenly it's like no, like.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I am completely like against this, and it can kind of swing back and forth, because then if they're like, no, no one loves me, then it's like fuck you, I'm not going to help. I'm not going to help you do anything. But it's kind of like is it a perception that you're unloved, or have you been unloved by particular people, and now it makes you fear that other people don't love you, and so then you know you're going to do the opposite, and that can be very confusing for people you're going to do the opposite and that can be very confusing for people.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, I just got lost in thought about people pleasing, how that's a whole Instagram term now that it's like so broad that it loses its meaning a little bit. But yeah, I think it's like focusing on the other person's needs and just doing that, even if it conflicts with your own. I think also, like I'm thinking about, how this shapes your identity and self-esteem. When you brought up this topic to me, I was thinking about, you know, as I've been talking about and processing a lot of like how my growing up, my experience growing up, and like kind of the abusive environment I grew up really affected my self-esteem and I and like watching how that played out in my life. I you know I talk about my mom has, like you know, anxious attachment to the extreme Right, like she constantly has. She just grown up feeling unloved by her, by her family or her parents. She felt unaccepted. So it's just like it feels like a bottomless pit. It's like no matter what people do to show her they care or they commit to her or choose her, she always feels victimized and not chosen and rejected. So she will, you know, like anything that feels like a rejection. She'll will like hammer home in like pretty aggressive ways and growing up, like I would just be doing the homework or I'd just be studying for a test, and I always knew when I would study for a test, that's when I was like most scared because somehow we get into a fight. And now I'm looking back I'm like, oh, obviously, because I was like so consumed by studying for a test that I wasn't paying attention to her. But she would sit there staring at me, glaring at me as I'm studying, and then she'd come and yell at me and then she'd say all these things, like you know, you're just like your father, you're an asshole, you know, you don't care about me, you're ungrateful, you don't love me, and I would just be so confused.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And when you're a kid, you know your mom or you're, like you know, caregiver, like what they say to you is going to really like affect the way you feel about yourself. And growing up I was like, oh, there's something wrong with the way I show love. I'm not present, I'm lost in my own head, I'm avoidant, you know, like whatever, and it led me to my last marriage, because when I really peeled back why I stayed with him, even though I knew that there were some problems. I was like there's something wrong with me, I am like absent or whatever, and I don't want my kids to ever feel that. So I'm going to pick someone who's like overly effusive and overly like connection, seeking Right To make up for my deficiencies in loving.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And it only took later for people to be like what you know, like people being like what I don't't. That's not how we experience you. I was like wait a minute, that insecurity I just carried through my entire life and it carried through my decisions. Um and so like. Yeah, anxious attached people like are vulnerable because they want more love, but the message that they're giving you're not giving me enough love can really be damaging for that person. Right, it's like it's your fault, I don't feel loved.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

And you're like oh my god, that's terrible right, so this is a random thought, but as you were talking it struck me that what can be confusing, I think, especially with this whole like media portrayal of anxious attachment being this like sweet, vulnerable thing is. I almost think we associate like things like BPD, for instance, with anxious attachment and then like NPD with avoidant attachment, but I don't know if that's appropriate. Like with my ex he demonstrated some seriously narcissistic behavior but like through anxious attachment, like the whole you uh, you will never find somebody else who loves you but me, because you're a flirtatious whore was like him.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

That's a direct quote.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I bet no, it's not, it's a good summary. Or like your mom, right Like very, very like selfish, narcissistic behavior, but through like an anxious attachment lens. I don't know if we're used. I think we're used to seeing the narcissist as like the CEO you know, who's like, avoidant and doesn't call and kind of plays with you, cat and mouse with you and then discards you and like. That subtype certainly exists, but anxious attachment can make somebody extremely selfish and abusive.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, yeah, I think it's like how we perceive where the power lies right Like it's all insecure attachment.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Right, we talk about anxious or avoidant, like they're two different things, but like it really is, like all different ways that you react to feeling like love is not secure, it's not a given and it's it's a scarce resource that you may or may not get. And then we all want love, like that's just. You know, it's like we all want to be loved and appreciated, and for who we are. And like narcissists can also, they could avoid, but they could also cling right. Like the reassurance seeking is like a criteria that, but it's reassurance for admiration for their qualities or achievements, right, so it's reassurance seeking a really particular way, whereas like reassurance seeking of like did you talk to another guy, did you flirt with another guy, is a different kind of like needy reassurance seeking for like some other type of thing that's like, oh, it's going to soothe my, it's a sign that is a sign that I'm going to be, that I'm loved.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

If you don't talk to other men, or if I'm a CEO, like it's, that's. That's what soothes me, that and makes me convince that I am loved and I'm secure.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I guess Right.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean. I think it can confuse people though, because there can be a perception of. I think people can get into abusive relationships with narcissistic people because they feel they're not just love bombed like attack, avoid, like anxious attachment, can feel like love bombing sometimes because it's so like I love you, I love you. Do you love me? Do you love me? Do you love me? Oh my God, like I have to be around you all the time, but you can be at the losing end of the power dynamic, while feeling like you're at the, while feeling like you're the one that has all the power. Because if the anxiously attached person is saying to you, like do you love me? I don't know if you love me, I just need to know, please, please. Like don't hurt me, don't abandon me, I just want.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

But no, when you go out with your friends, I don't like that because it doesn't feel like you love me. Okay, well, no, why did you look at that girl? What's wrong with you? Are you just like other guys? Like, what the fuck Like? Are you just going to be, like you know, a fuck boy like everybody else? Well, I guess, yeah, I mean, of course you don't love me. Why didn't you do the dishes? Do you even consider? You even care? You can write the other person like loses a lot of power through that, but feels like they're the one with all the power, because the person with anxious attachment is like you just need to validate my existence right, and it's probably our society is so individualistic and really prioritizes um individual, like individual power, right, and and the idea that you are seeking love or like.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Even growing up, I thought like if I, if I have a crush on someone, I can never let them know, because me wanting someone else and wanting their attention is like puts me in a position of lower power and they have all the power.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I want them right, so right. But like that's so silly because like everyone wants that and there's also a lot of you know like it just it just makes it. It just like pathologizes, wanting and chasing and makes it a little bit more like you are in a position of low power, so like we need to take care of you, right like if you want someone and they don't love you back, we have to take care of you.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

The person is avoiding it. They're jerks so, but that person just might be terrified that you know like they might be hurt or they're in a conflict or something, but they're like um, just recognize how much autonomy you are losing, um, because you feel like you have to take like, care, take the other person.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Sometimes you may be in an abusive relationship, even though you feel like the one with the power. Take like, like, look at it like a scientist. Like, how has your behavior changed to accommodate the other person? How has your self esteem changed? Like, what are the things that you say about yourself? Do you say about yourself that you are like avoidant and inconsiderate and selfish and a flirt and um, you know that you have commitment issues or or something like that. Has that been true in all of your relationships, or just this one? Um, you know, do those things apply to your friendship? Like, all of those things could be true, and that's what's so confusing, and there might be a kernel of truth in all of them. So I think that the I think the other person is in a bit of a bind. I feel like I've got lots of tips for the person with anxious attachment, um, but I don't have as many for the other person.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I mean what, like I'm going to hear more, but for the person who is, yeah.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, like I I think, first of all, what you just said about feeling like you're at the losing end of a power dynamic because you want somebody you know maybe try to reframe that Like is it a problem to love somebody, to want somebody to you know for your Is it? Is it, does it really make you powerless or a victim or weak or submissive? That you know you'd be really unhappy if you lost somebody. Like that can be okay. Um, trying to like soothe that part of you, like it's okay that I'm anxious, it's okay that I struggle here, it's okay that I have these fears. I don't have to disguise them all the time, but I do have to own them and take responsibility for them. And when I approach my loved one with this, you know, maybe like an arsenal of evidence is not the best way to go, because I know that my fears might skew my perspective. So, instead of saying you don't do this, or you know, you don't tell me you love me enough, or yada, yada, it might be like, hey, I'm noticing anxiety rising in me right now and this is a thing that happens with me and I want to own that and respect that. That can be frustrating for you If you're interested in helping me with these feelings. Like could you tell me how you feel about me? Or, um, could you provide me some reassurance, right? Or like, could we?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

You know, like my friend was really effective here. She was like she kind of she owned it and she was like you know what I think, like this is maybe my anxiety and I think maybe if we did these other things together then that would mean a lot to me. It's like great, we can totally do those other things together. And it's not that I think you have to apologize preemptively every time you bring something up, but the more you can have awareness of your core beliefs and how they influence things, the more you can understand that there might be a bit of a bias or a skewed perspective and then approach that with curiosity. And then you know you can communicate that curiosity to the other person.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Like I'm not sure I'm right, but these were the feelings that came up in me when you went out with your friends and didn't call me. You know I was worried and I had all these images come up in my head and I don't want to suggest that I don't trust you, but trust is just hard for me in general, you know, can we talk about it? Yeah, yeah, that's the best behavior. You're obviously not going to do that every time.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I mean, the first step in what you're saying, for both sides, is to validate the emotion right. Validate the anxiety sides is to validate the emotion right. Validate the anxiety like notice and validate the anxiety when it's coming up, right because it's a real. It's a real emotion it might be from. I grew up in an environment with caregivers who weren't secure, always there for me. Therefore, like any sign of, like potential loss of a person is going to kick that up. So even just like noticing, like oh it's, it's up now, like my anxious attachment's happening.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

That's genuinely a really good reason to be anxious, you know so like there is something to validate there. Like if you grow up that way, then like yeah, you're like that's good. You were taught to not trust that the people stick around. Like why wouldn't you? I mean that this is how our brains develop. They they trust that the people stick around. Like why wouldn't you? I mean that this is how our brains develop. They trust patterns and so that's something you can totally validate.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

It doesn't have to be like there's something wrong with me for being anxious, Right? I think it's like, as we're talking about it, it might be. I would be afraid that it totally discounts what the other person might be doing, Like the person might actually be avoiding or being like neglectful it's like you could own your piece of saying, not only maybe growing I'm just using growing up a lot.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

It could be from previous relationships, or even if there's like a betrayal or some other problem in the relationship, like I'm going to be anxious, right, like, if you're going to flirt with other people, I'm going to be anxious because you cheated on me, right so, but you, hey, I'm noticing that my anxiety is coming up around this and I'm I'm nervous about, like, losing you, or nervous about that you don't feel for me. The way that I'm looking for, right, about how the thing, about what you really want, right, like, notice the emotion, validate the anxiety and then really notice, like, what, what are you really looking for? What is that emotion driving you to try to get, and what? It might not just be like reassure me that you didn't go out and flirt with other people, but it's like I feel vulnerable and lonely and disconnected and scared and I want you to be here with me in it, right, and because, like, especially if you grow up with that kind of trauma, it's never going to go away. But you might just need sometimes to feel that connection when you're feeling anxious.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And my instructor for emotionally focused therapy, gave a really, really vulnerable and beautiful example and he was like I own that, I am, I'm anxiously attached, I'm the pursuer, I'm constantly trying to get reassurance. And he was just like, yeah, cause I learned that, like you know, like I'm ashamed and no one wants me and no one wants to be with me if I'm, like you know, weak or whatever. So he gave this really beautiful story of it. He, they, he and his husband went on a boat trip with a bunch of friends and he like hates open water and he's like so anxious about it and everyone's jumping in, swimming into the ocean, right, and they're like, come on, come on. So he jumps in. He's like, oh my God, I hate this and he's not a good swimmer, he said. And so he was you you know swimming around and then popped up and realized that the tide has taken him like far away from everyone else and he was panicking.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

He just was like thrashing and panicking and they basically had to get, like the security, you know, they had to get the rescue theme of the boat to go and get him and pull him up, you know, and put the life vest on him, wrap him up, right. So it was, it was, it was a big deal and he was so, so embarrassed, like he just like was, he collapsed into shame and normally he probably would pick a fight with his partner or like he would, you know, just do something else about, like why, why did you make me do that? Right, just kind of get a little, you know, snippy and defensive about it.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

But, he was like, okay, I'm gonna try to put into practice all what I tell my patients. And he pulled his husband aside and he said I know this sounds crazy, but I'm just gonna ask you to do something for me. Even when I'm like this, can you do? You still love me. Oh, and important. Apparently it was like a beautiful moment because of course, the partner, his husband, like was like oh my gosh, and like there was a lot of like love and healing there, but it's like I I'm feeling embarrassed, I feel vulnerable. Will you still be here with me?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

You know, to find that like that must have taken so much courage. Right, but like to invite your lover, your loved one, in there with you. That's really like top notch, anxious attachment tips. So what do you got what?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

do? You got Dr Trumbull. I did appreciate you adding the doctor in front of my name. That was thrilling when I signed in. No, I think that's. I think that's beautiful.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

That speaks to someone who is validating their own anxiety, right Saying to themselves I, you know, I know. He said, like I'm going to ask something kind of crazy no-transcript. Same thing when you texted me something similar actually recently, I was like you know, I was like, yeah, it's actually not that weird to ask somebody to remind you of your strengths when you're feeling weak, like just like, I don't think it's gross to want admiration from high status people. It's really truly not weird or crazy to want to know that you're loved, even when you, you know, feel the most unlovable. Um, and so being able to validate that in yourself as much as you can, it just opens up the doors to like such good connection.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Um, what I was thinking when you said I don't want to suggest to anxious attachment to people who are anxious that, like their partner's behavior is totally okay and they just need to suck it up. Um, it's true, I think like doing some work upfront, ideally with a therapist, to recognize a couple of things that could be going on is really important. So one is that, like, people with anxious attachment are very likely to reenact patterns that created the anxious attachment in the first place. So and we've talked about this a million- times in the podcast, but you know,

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

if you had a father who abandoned you and you have worked your entire life for his recognition, you're very, very likely to look for avoidant men who you work very, very hard for their recognition and they never give it. So I would say one of the first steps is being proactive, like am I reenacting, am I stuck in a pattern and is the best thing I can do for myself to actually step out of this pattern? Another thing would be you know, once you do step out, can you help? Can you get help defining what your boundaries are? So you know the a big risk factor for anxious attachment is that they are so desperate for love that and we talked about it a few minutes ago, right that they, their boundaries, will get walked all over, um, and they'll let it happen because it's better than losing somebody, but then they get really angry and lash out or whatever the case may be. So if you can go in and say to yourself I am allowed to have boundaries and I'm going to work really hard with my therapist to discover what those boundaries are and to communicate them upfront and continuously so that my partner, so that I know, like, here's the thing, right, if you are anxious, it's probably very easy to question yourself and ask if you're crazy. You know, like I haven't heard from my partner tonight. He's been out with his friends. I'm feeling really anxious. Is he cheating on me? Does he still love me? Oh my God, am I being crazy? But if you communicate upfront, like it is crucial for me, that if you're going to be out with your friends, for me, that if you're going to be out with your friends, you check in with me, then when your partner violates that, you'll know, not that he doesn't care about you, but that your boundary that has been communicated clearly has been violated and that that is pretty justifiable to bring up, right?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, my ex told me that you know all of our problems in our and this is a direct quote all of our problems in our relationship were caused by me violating his boundaries, and his boundaries were that I was not allowed to touch other men. That was actually the point when we first broke up, because I was like I didn't understand that that was your boundary. And now that I do, I can tell you very clearly that I will not be able to meet. That. Tell you very clearly that I will not be able to meet that. I like hugging people. But if that is legitimately his boundary, he can go find a woman who can meet that. And then when she touches another man he can say, hey, I told you, this is my boundary, and then you're not having a conversation about like who's crazy or who's insecure or who's whatever. It's a conversation about like we agreed to these things and of course boundaries can be flexible and they can be renegotiated, et cetera, et cetera. But if you do agree on terms upfront, then you should not be surprised when it's brought up with another person. You know it's brought up in the course of the relationship. So that would be kind of how to, or at least initial ideas of like how to set yourself up for success within these relationships.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

But I also think it's important to take a bird's eye view right, like if I my advice to go to somebody and say, hey, my anxiety comes up sometimes and it makes it's maybe excuse my perspective. I just want to bring curiosity Like what were you, what was? Why didn't, why didn't you text me late at night? Like what's going on? You know that would be a good approach for somebody who you know doing its whole anxiety thing and not a legitimate grievance or like a not. I shouldn't say that it might be a legitimate grievance, but like isn't legitimately evidence that my partner doesn't care, and so maybe I need to be curious about that. I think a lot of times when you're really anxious, all you see is the here and now, and the past is completely blocked out. So it might be like oh well, I know they loved me up until today, but I don't know about today anymore and that's not quite. That's not usually how love works, right. Usually it kind of can persist through things.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So can you keep the past in mind, can you notice, like, okay, do something, um to uh, provide safety, right like the, the, the specific behaviors that will, um, like guidelines right about what to do? Um, and I would say that you know, if you, if you're the, the, the, I don to say the avoidant person, but the one who's being anxious, attached on to you could say you know, it would be helpful to talk about the elephant in the room, the part of the past that's making them anxious, right, like I grew up in a home where I didn't feel loved. Or, you know, in the past, in our relationship, when you cheated on me, it's like coming up now. Right, so, name that elephant in the room, validate the emotion around it. But also, when you talk about that present, when you talk about those guidelines, really, really talk through them and you can ask okay, what, what can I do now to? What can I do now to reassure you, to actually show you that I love you?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

and I'm here with you Right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Because if, if someone says, well, I just want you to never touch a guy, right Like I, I kind of believe that, even if, like, I've seen you change a lot with those boundaries that were being set in your relationship and still it didn't feel like it worked Right, like wasn't, like, oh, thank goodness, like now I'm reassured and she's lifting my boundaries. So you were constantly like violating ones, because it was clear that there was, like there was a core belief, there was a void and insecurity that's being constantly projected onto you and there's nothing you can really do to change that for him. So I think that'd be like, okay, what can I actually do to make you feel loved and for that person with anxious attachment to be honest with themselves and say, like, like your friend did, where it's, like, if we do these things, if you invite me to this, if you check in with me when you're out, and and then see if that worked right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Like actually, you know, do a little postmortem. You could be like, okay, we, actually I did, I didn't touch any male person in the past year. Or I did check in with you, did that work? Did that? How did? How did you feel right? Yeah, and you know, because sometimes when we throw out these boundaries or these requests, or like I did, I did show you, I love you, I did all these things.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Some of them actually might work, but some of them are just like straw man, like what's the analogy for that? They're just like things that we think are going to help but that actually don't.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

So Right, right, yeah, I've been having thoughts while you were talking about that. Now my thoughts are going away. I think, like I guess I've got a jumble of them. It is important, if you're going to ask for these things, that the other person be allowed to say no, and I don't mean that then you still have to stay with them. But I think you have to go in with the understanding of, like, I'm going to ask for something that this person might say no to, and that doesn't mean that they're an asshole. It might, but it doesn't necessarily mean that. And then I have to.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

The onus is on me to stay or go to say I can live with that or not. Because I think what a lot of people will do is they'll say here's a boundary, and then they'll let it get trampled on over and over again. Or they'll say here's a boundary and the other person says I'm not cool with that boundary, like when I said I'm not cool with ending my friendships with ex-boyfriends and then I didn't, and he remained unhappy with that for the entire length of our relationship. It's like we have to be honest with what we're willing to do, what we're willing to give and what we're willing to to let go of, um, and constantly like holding it against the other person that they don't want to meet the secret boundary that you have or the secret desire that you have is not going to work, um, and so like figuring out how to soothe yourself and say, okay, then I got to go. Like, if you're not willing to text me when you're out with the guys I you know, then I got to go.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Or it doesn't have to be so final, like we don't have to show our list of boundaries and like do you are you, do you agree?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Do you sign?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

if not like you're out, you know, like also, you could negotiate and be like okay. If you know like you want to stay friends with your exes, and that makes me really insecure and unsure. If you have feelings for other people when you hang out with your exes, like you know, agree on a mutual boundary or guideline that we're both comfortable with, where you, we, everyone gets what they want, they as much, you know, as much compromise as possible you get to. You know, live your life, be friends with whoever you want, and the other person is reassured that they, um, you know, actually have your love right.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

And then for the other partner, I think one thing that can happen is they will agree to things and then they do it to pacify the other person, but they're secretly resentful of that and it feels like they have to do a lot of effort and if they slip even just once, they're going to get an earful and that's going to just push them away.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

But it never feels like enough to end the relationship over, and so at some point that's got to be communicated to like hey, I really want to make you feel reassured, but I don't want to be under the gun for, like never making a mistake day and I forget to text, like is it going to be World War III, or you know, can I, can we have some slack?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

And like you know, if I make a mistake, can you bring it up with me in a particular way that doesn't like wrinkle me right, because I think I think that's the risk I think it can sound easy to agree to. Yes, I'll text you three times when I'm out with my friends. But then you're out with your friends and you're having a good time and it slips, and then you're like shit, shit, shit, shit, shit. Now I'm anxious to go home. Oh no, this is going to be a fight. So you know, having being honest with yourself like can you actually meet these needs and can there be a plan in place for what happens if you don't? But you don't want to get in a blow up fight, but you also do want your partner to feel like loved.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I agree. No notes Cool, cool, cool. Um, if it has affected your self-esteem, like you're dealing with now, what do you suggest?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I don't know. You tell me I'm working through it right now, same, yeah, I mean, identity is a really tough thing because it's, it's such a collection of years and years, a lifetime of experiences, right? So it's like you know, um, I would say now, like even even just recognizing it and naming it, it's like, oh, my self-esteem and identity, incest of self, has been determined by this one relationship, this one with my mom, this one with my first boyfriend, my ex-husband, whatever, and that person is determined so much of who I think about myself, but that's one person. Do I really want to base my whole sense of self around that person, right? Do I want to base how I feel about myself around the way my mom never feels loved, right? Like, I see, I recognize logically, like that's flawed, right?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I see that, even despite the evidence, you know, she still feels rejected all the time, right, so? But you know, do I want to base my beliefs about myself on that? So, even just like naming that elephant in the room and you know, like thinking about the, the skew, the skewed view it gives me, um, yeah, and then, like I don't know, there's a lot of acts, there's a lot of acceptance of commitment, therapy of like I, it doesn't work for me to get like, it does work a little bit, like when you give me evidence and when some people give me evidence of like actually I'm a good person. Like it, it, it feels different. It feels like, okay, at least I know that other people don't think this way. I still feel it, I still feel like I'm a worthless person, but at least I have evidence that other people think differently. So I could trust that. So I think, like you know, just noticing how, like when it comes up in you, and labeling it right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Like it's my, it's my, you're broken. Story, again, it's my. You know like I'm unlovable, I'm, I'm a motionless automaton who is a narcissist. Blah, blah, blah. Like whatever, whatever name you want to give it. You could give it a character, you could give it whatever, and just like know when it comes up and just be like yeah, I mean, I was affected by someone who felt like no one was good enough, no one was ever going to give enough love, like no one was good enough, no one was ever going to give enough love, and I took that to heart, I really internalized and it will always be a part of me, which I hate. But if I see it, maybe if I take off those glasses and like, look at that, oh, I'm wearing orange glasses. I might not ever let go of those glasses because I'm born with it. Now, but at least I know that I'm looking through orange glasses and that's at least going to change the way I perceive my own perceptions.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

If that makes sense. I just I know we're like going over time with this episode. I thought it was going to be short, but I do have two more things to say. One is, I think, a thing that can happen with anxious attachment whether it's friends or lovers or whoever is that, because of the insistence on being loved and having proof that you're loved, those relationships can take a lot of work and you can get sucked in them and they can feel like your most important or most dominant relationship, and then it can be difficult to experience feedback from other people as having the same weight, and so it might be hard to then take in evidence or feedback from other people because you're like, well, you don't really know, you don't know what I'm like, and he's like really close relationships. We have a more like distant relationship. So, who knows, maybe the same problems would happen. So I don't know some way of working through that.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

And the other thing, as I'm working with a couple and, um, the one with more anxious attachment is the one that is also very critical, right, for all the same reasons we've talked about, and when we got down to it, it's that you know, she, she feels all the way as we've talked about. But also when her partner then criticizes her or like, gives her feedback or something like that, she immediately is like this relationship is unstable. What if she their gay couple? What if she leaves me? What if she leaves me? And so we we worked out like, cause, this person loves theater, we worked out like what if we could set a scene so kind of like you said, with like here's the, here's that core belief, like this is the scene I'm in, right, what if it's like hey, I want to talk to you about something, but just so you know, this is the, this is the story where nobody breaks up in the end, where everybody's okay in the end. That's the scene we're going to be in now.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

So maybe I have something hard to tell you, but I want to assure you from the outset, the way the story ends is nobody breaks up, nobody gets abandoned, nobody leaves with any less love. And now can we have our talk, and so that's like something that we've been working on. So I mean, I think I think figuring out how to approach your anxious one with some assurance about like, look, you know, I've got some difficult stuff to say and it's okay and I love you through it and nobody's gonna, nobody's gonna, break up at the end. There's Um, and it's okay, and I'm, I love you through it, and nobody's going to, nobody's going to break up at the end. There's nothing. Nothing is threatened here.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

It can sometimes be helpful. I think the majority of my thoughts have come out of my head at this point. Yeah, okay, a lot of good tips. Well, I think it's clear that Kibbe and I are anxiously attached to our followers when it comes to this podcast. So if you could give us some reassurance with five-star ratings on Spotify and Apple podcast, we would be able to sleep tonight.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Reassurance please.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Otherwise you're inconsiderate bastards. We still love you, secure attachment, so see, see how that works. How's that feel we'll see you in a week? Bye. By accessing this podcast, I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this podcast. Thank you. All content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment, and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified health care provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call 911. The hosts do not endorse, approve, recommend or certify any information, product, process, service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast, and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. © transcript, emily Beynon.