A Little Help For Our Friends

Humiliation: The Spiciest Social Emotion

• Jacqueline Trumbull and Kibby McMahon • Season 5 • Episode 154

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Humiliation might be the most painful social emotion we experience, even traumatizing. Yet it's much less talked about compared to its cousin, shame. In this revealing episode, we unpack the distinct characteristics that make humiliation uniquely devastating and potentially dangerous.

When someone in a position of power debases you in public, that's not just intense shame- it's humiliation. You simply experience a profound loss of status and dignity. While someone might humiliate you to "teach you a lesson" or make you change, but it only brings up a powerful urge for revenge.

We explore how this emotional response plays out across various contexts—from relationships where partners use humiliation as a power tactic, parents humiliate their kids as discipline, to political landscapes where people who are humiliated become radicalized. We talk about how public humiliation can devastate someone's life, while contemporary cancel culture creates new avenues for status destruction.

Finally, we discuss pathways for healing after humiliation. While revenge might feel satisfying in the moment, understanding the true costs of vengeance versus genuine recovery offers a more hopeful way forward.

Join KulaMind, our community and program for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. We teach essential skills for managing crises, setting boundaries, and practicing self-care during challenging relationships.

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  • Follow @kulamind on Instagram for podcast updates and science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.


Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends the podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hi, little helpers. Today we are going back to our social emotions, which tend to be like mine and Kibbe's kind of favorite emotions to talk about. Those are like shame and embarrassment and guilt, like you know, like 90% of the emotions we feel at any given time.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

guilt, like you know, like 90% of the emotions we feel at any given time, but there is one social emotion that we have paid zero attention to and in fact, most people tend not to pay too much attention to this one, even though it is the spiciest of all, that is, humiliation. So we are going to talk all about this gnarly social emotion, arguably even more painful than shame. I didn't think I'd ever say that was possible. And uh, kibbe, why are you making that face?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Um, what I mean? I was I. I just assumed that humiliation was like an extreme form of shame.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Uh-uh, it's a severed emotion. We'll talk about what. Yeah, okay, all right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Well, I'm going to learn.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I thought I was going to come in with all these thoughts and ideas and facts, and I'm going to be schooled in this one. Well, first tell us how KulaMind can help people who are humiliated not shame.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

You're humiliated. Well, you have a loved one who's humiliated. Yeah, I mean, it's actually really, really exciting. I'm so excited to talk about it because before it was just like an idea and now it's it's a real thing. So Kula Mind is our official community and support platform for people who have loved ones struggling with mental health. But really the people in it are also struggling with mental health themselves. It's just that they it's affecting their relationships.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So you know, if you have someone in your life, like a partner, who's struggling with anger issues, or you're dealing with toxic relationships yourself, or, um, feeling like you're struggling with self-worth and feeling humiliated and shamed in your relationship, um, check out, cool of mine. We are going through all these different skills. Like we just covered a couple skills about what to do in a crisis, like when shit hits the fan right, when someone's at risk or when someone's going to do something really dangerous. What do you do? So? And we're going to do boundaries setting, coming up and how to take care of yourself and all that fun stuff. So if you are just curious and want to check it out, go to kulamindcom, K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D. com, and there's links in the show notes where you can learn more. And, jacqueline, I'm bringing you on to teach. You know, maybe boundary setting or something fun that you want to teach.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

So yeah, we'll figure it out, Um so should we start? Off by talking about how it's not shame.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yep, because I did not know that. I thought it was just like intense shame, right.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

No, it's related, but there are, I would say, three major important differences. Three major important differences. So this actually comes from the Latin humiliare, meaning to humble or bring down. So this is a deeply dysphoric feeling associated with being or perceiving humiliated by another person or entity, right or group of people, and we typically think of that entity as one having power over you. So I can feel shame for doing poorly on a math test, but I'm not going to feel humiliated by doing poorly on a math test. I'm going to be humiliated by some kid giving me a swirly in the bathroom, right. So there kind of has to be a perpetrator in humiliation.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I see. So is it almost like it's? Is it okay? Is the feeling shame? But it's just under a certain circumstance where an authority figure or someone on um a higher on a hierarchy, puts you down.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean it's debatable. But there are two more important differences that I would point out. Okay, so right, so, first of all, so, so humiliation is more specific than shame. It's going to, it's going to happen in probably fewer contexts, more specific contexts and, um, you could probably go your whole life without feeling humiliation and actually be the better for it. Versus shame is pretty important to feel sometimes, um, but humiliation, so the second major distinction, so right, so. The first is that there's a perpetrator who has more power than you and they debase you in some way. That there's a perpetrator who has more power than you and they debase you in some way.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

The second major difference between humiliation and shame is that when you are shamed, you kind of take on the negative evaluation of yourself and you're often the one who actually gives the negative evaluation. So when you're shamed, you'll say I'm terrible. Oh, I'm the worst, I can't do anything right. You make yourself feel low in a sense. Humiliation does not actually necessarily entail you buying into that. Instead, you feel like somebody else has made you feel those ways. But you wouldn't necessarily say, yes, it's true that I'm nothing and worthless, wouldn't necessarily say yes, it's true that I'm nothing and worthless. Instead you'd say that person is treating me as if I'm nothing as worthless. So it's a loss of status, but you don't necessarily ascribe to the loss in like a personal way.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

That's interesting, okay, okay, yeah, all right, that's making more sense. My definition is that you have a status or identity in the world, like you're known for something, a reputation, and you're publicly rejected or attacked by this authority. Figure this extra implication that you it's almost like you didn't have a right to that status to begin with, that it just completely annihilates that reputation, right Like you, it's stripped from you, um that identity. But would you say that that's accurate? Or you say, are you saying like it doesn't need to have those?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I don't know, elements of public rejection or public calling out or well, it depends on what you mean by like having that totally stripped are you?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

is it totally stripped in the eyes of others or in your own eyes? Because the thing is, shame is very, very likely to quickly come after humiliation, but it doesn't necessarily have to. If I'm like there are examples, so I'm like in the combat world right now, right, so like a lot of the kind of traumas and stuff are more combat related. So if we imagine somebody is being tortured, they're a prisoner of war, they're made to, you know, eat their own shit or something that they would feel horribly humiliated, but they might not actually agree, right, that they deserve to be eating shit or that they are nothing, but they are going to understand that they are nothing to somebody else and that they have suffered a horrible, horrible loss of status.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

That's really interesting, and you know what this is making me think, which is what I like about doing this with you Okay, interesting. So, really, it's like it's humiliation. It's humiliation though an emotion, or is it a social situation, right? Is it basically like someone taking power over you, like a humiliation, like shame, sounds like that internal feeling of taking in that judgment of I am bad, but then humiliation is like that person thinks I'm bad and is destroying my reputation or my status or identity. But is it associated with a very specific feeling, because you could feel all sorts of different things in that scenario, right?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I think I know what you're talking about. Like I'm kind of butting up against the same sort of question. I mean, I feel like everybody kind of instinctively knows what it would feel like to be, for instance, called out as stupid in the middle of a classroom. Right Like you, you answer a question and the teacher's like that was a stupid answer, and I this might seem unlikely, except that actually 40 percent of medical trainees report having been publicly humiliated.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Oh yeah, because it's like what is it Pimping? There's like a. There's like a if anyone listening knows the word, but there's an actual like a word for putting the trainees on the spot, and saying like what is it? What are the diagnostic criteria for this?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

And that's supposed to be like on the hazing thing called pimping or something, humiliation I mean I can, I'm not and I'm sure I've blocked out instances of humiliation in my past, but you know it, it comes, it's. It's hard to kind of parse out, like what is the exact, like pinpointed feeling of any given emotion. Like humiliation is going to have so many bunched in with that, like you're probably also going to feel shame and you're probably also going to feel anger I'll talk about that in a second um, but there is that kind of like that like wind taken out of you, kind of like flushed, gross feeling that I think, we can kind of instinctually imagine, but but when we get super technical about it, I don't know.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

It is, however, classed as an emotion.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Interesting Okay.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

The third major difference is that so we know that shame is likely to have a secondary kind of action or urge of like getting angry with the person who has like made you feel shamed or witnessed you being shamed. But in general, the action or urge of shame is to like withdraw or hide or like disappear through the floorboards with humiliation. The major action urge is not just anger, it is vengeance, and this is like super consistent, huh, and it makes sense, right, because you have to write the scales, you have suffered a status hit and you need to rectify that situation, and the only way it feels like you can do that is by taking your revenge. If somebody has, you know, overpowered you and then disempowered you, then you are probably going to make a power play, right?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

All right, that makes sense. Yeah, I've read that it's called like humiliate, humiliated fury or rage. Is that what you're thinking of? Sure, I mean, it sounds like it's just like like an injustice based on your standing in, and what's that threat is like the injustice of your standing in society being taken away yeah threatened and I mean it's.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

It's pretty legit, like we know, like from you know, from animal studies, um, that animals with lower status have all sorts of problems. They're more disease-prone, they don't reproduce. I was just visiting this Gnostic priest who breeds peacocks and there was one male peacock with no tail feathers. Yes, that is a sentence that I said. He had no tail feathers because the other male peacocks deemed him weak and plucked them all out. They know. So now he can't reproduce, right, he's not going to get a mate, and it was so sad, oh my god so what was he?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

what was that peacock doing? Just kind of slumping around. I mean, what did that's so sad?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, there's a risk of him being killed, but I think for now they're just like. We'll settle for just taking your tail feathers so that you can't compete with us for these, these hens, that's so sad.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

But yeah, so so lower status status animals are. They're associated with more, with higher glucocorticoids or glucocorticoids or something which it's actually not the case that higher cortisol means that you're more stressed out. Ptsd is actually associated with lower cortisol, like slightly lower cortisol. Cortisol is not the problem, it's actually these leukocorticoids. I'm just saying that, like, loss of status is associated with an out of whack stress response. So your stress symptom, your stress symptom system, oh my gosh, is out of whack and you're having a bummer of a time right. So it's actually pretty dangerous to be low status, and so it's important that this is why we have this emotional response with this action urge.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

It's important to try to rectify that talking about this in the context of at war and the army. I'm thinking about how humiliation now should be talked more about as a trauma, right? Because, like, we talk about trauma so much as risking your safety, right Emotional safety, physical safety and we often are getting a rise in like social anxiety and avoidant personality disorder. And when you talk to people who struggle with those like social anxiety or like self-esteem issues, there's some kind of humiliation story in their past, right, like they were bullied, or now we have, you know, cancel culture. We have, you know, uh, calling people out right, publicly. Um, and you, you were just saying like, oh, I can't think of when I was humiliated.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I'm like I mean you've been humiliated a bunch of times. Um, if you've ever seen the show adolescents on Netflix, have you seen it yet? I've been. I think I've been trying to tell you. Oh yeah, like that, that is showing an example of what happens when kids are like cyber bullied, when they're bullied on social media. It's, it goes from just bullying right, like just kids in the playground fighting um, which is already terrifying and traumatic but publicly, and like really taking away and threatening someone's social status, right.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, no, it's a really important point and this was why I was talking about it actually in the context of like combat and trauma is that it has interesting implications for trauma treatment.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

The kind of number one go-to treatment for PTSD is prolonged exposure. But prolonged exposure really works on the like, more like fearful emotions. So you're really not supposed to do something like PE unless you've experienced something where you had fight or flight, like you have this absolute terror and you have to like basically come into contact with that terror again. I am doing PE with a patient who had that experience where he was absolutely terrified for his life but it was bookended by experiences of humiliation. So he was actually in that position in the first place place because he had suffered racial humiliation and he kind of like left that context, went outside and happened to be put in the dangerous situation and then was on the other end yelled at by a superior who was like also racist and it's interesting because I was trained to. Basically in PE you have to like you have to make them shut their eyes and speak in the present tense in as much detail as possible, but you want to keep it clipped to the part where they're terrified.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Because you might also want to explain like what prolonged exposure is, just in case anyone listening doesn't.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Prolonged exposure is just in case anyone listening doesn't. It's basically, like you know, when you have PTSD you kind of stop living your life because you're so controlled by the avoidance. If you experience something that is so absolutely horrific or terrifying, then you've experienced an emotion, an emotional experience that you never want to experience again, even kind of vicariously or in remembrance, right. So your body has basically gone through this experience of saying that's your, that's your alarm system, right, it's like you can't feel this. So do whatever you can to not feel this because your, your body's kind of hoping that that'll push you out of the dangerous situation. Right, your instincts will crop up, you'll run away, you'll fight, you'll do whatever it takes to get out of that emotional experience, because that means getting out of harm's way. But with PTSD the alarm bells never turn off completely, and so you're always trying to get away from that, those feelings, and you start living your life in avoidance. So you start, you know, getting really, um, distracted or shut down or numbing out, because so much of the time, what would it be happening in your mind otherwise? Is these feelings and these emotions coming back up, these memories popping into your head, so you're like, oh, my God, get away, get away, get away. I, you know I'll. I'll go do drugs and then I'll make them go away. Um, or I'll just numb myself out with I don't know like TV or endless distractions or work, or whatever the case may be. And also, I can't possibly go near anything out in the real world that could put me in that situation again. I can never feel that way again, so I can't be near noises that might remind me of what happened. I can't be near people that remind me of what happened. So PTSD takes away so much from your life and prolonged exposure. You have to turn around and start facing these things, and one of the ways to make it so that you don't have to avoid the trauma memory all the time, is to go back into the trauma memory and basically say, hey, I'm not scared of you Cause I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm going to go in. They are scared of it, but like it's like turning towards a monster in a nightmare, right, like I'm going to go back into those feelings and let them pass through me naturally. Um, I'm going to see that I can revisit this place and the fear won't stay at a 10 out of 10, because I'm not actually in a dangerous situation like I was before. That fear didn't leave me because I was actually in danger. But how emotions actually work is that if you let them pass through, then your brain will learn oh okay, I don't, I don't have to. These emotions don't have to show up in this situation because it's not happening right now. Oh okay, I didn't, I wasn't aware of that. So, anyways, you make them close their eyes, speak as if they're in the present tense, like if I were going to do prolonged exposure for my day today. I would say, like I woke up, I cuddled a dog or I am cuddling a dog. Sorry, I am waking up, I'm cuddling a dog.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I decide to take a sick day because I have 45 hours left and only two weeks left to work and only two meetings. Today I decide to go in the park, like you, just sort of in detail, and then you add a lot of emotion, like I am feeling nervous about asking for a sick day, even though I'm not technically sick. Getting nervous about asking for a sick day even though I'm not technically sick. I'm feeling the sunlight on my face as I read my book in the park and I feel lovely inside, I feel peaceful, like you want to give some attention to your inner world.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

The point is, the risk of doing that with humiliation is that humiliation is going to immediately spark anger, because that's what it does, right? If you were humiliated, of course you're going to be pissed about that. You have to right the wrong right. Well, you don't actually want a bunch of anger coming up during PE, because anger is going to mask the vulnerable emotions that need to play out. So with this patient, for instance, I had to clip it. We had to get rid of the racial stuff and go straight for the actual endangered situation, because when he talked about all of it, he would get so angry justifiably talking about the racial insult that happened at the beginning and at the end, that he would just stay angry the whole time and we could never get underneath that to the fear and when. So if you have like a humiliation, then can you do prolonged exposure with it? I'm kind of unclear about that. But that brings me to the next point, which is that a lot of trauma is humiliating, like rape, yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, yeah, especially the social fallout, right, the, the, what it does to your reputation. I mean, do you so it? But it would be different if, if you just felt shame, like, let's say, you were sexually assaulted and you felt shame for that, that would be different than like someone publicly saying, oh you know, you want to get under the shame too.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, if you think about CPT, which is another trauma treatment, like shame is considered a secondary emotion, you want to get under the shame too. I mean, if you think about CPT, which is another trauma treatment, like shame is considered a secondary emotion, you want to get underneath that, to the powerlessness and the terror and the sadness, et cetera.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I mean this is interesting because it just is. So it's. We've talked about this, about how our country and our world is getting so divided and we are shaming each other left and right. And you know the right thing to say, the wrong thing to say you're a bad person. I'm good person, based on political beliefs or whatever. Um, if you say the wrong word, you know you're canceled. Um, and we're probably getting more and more into the. You know using humiliation as a, as a strategy to get power over other people or to feel, to get vengeance over some hurt that you've experienced. Right, like yeah.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, no, I mean I'm. This is why I'm so angry at the Democrats. I can't even believe it. I mean because it was such a patently obviously stupid strategy. They think they're shaming people so that those people will go, you know, lick their wounds and disappear and then they can, you know, have more of like a presence in society. But they're actually humiliating people. You shame somebody in public. That's humiliation, and that means that those people are going to want to take revenge and guess what they have? They're actively doing it. So, yeah, I mean, you don't, and I think a lot of Democrats are perceived as having more power, because a lot of this humiliation came from the elites, and this is what people have been saying forever you can't tell somebody to go educate themselves who hasn't had an opportunity to be fucking educated. That's such a humiliating thing to say.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So I guess, like humiliation only really works. Let's say, if you do have established power, right, like, let's say, those peacocks, the other peacocks are stronger and they could pluck out all of the poor peacocks feathers, and that would work. But if they try to do it and then that peacock decides to get, like, get the humiliation fury and fight back, then it's just not effective. Right, then, you're just making a war, right, you're just like you're just making a war, right, you're just like you're just starting to battle, right, right, how, um, how does, do we know anything about narcissism and humiliation Cause?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I imagine that, um, I'm thinking of a couple people who, um, a couple of patients, a couple patients, a couple friends with narcissistic traits, and they will cite a bullying moment, right, like, they had a trauma where they were humiliated in some way, they were mocked in public or torn down or some way in public or torn down or some way, and then, and then that feeling of like I'm never good enough and I'm going to prove to the world that I'm good enough in this very narcissistic, I'm going to show everyone how powerful I am, right, and I'm wondering if they just feel like there's more sensitive to humiliation, even like crit criticism feel like probably humiliating when it might not to someone else.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I would think so, I mean, but here. So here's an example. So we know that, um, things like, there was a study that, um, they put a bunch of rapists in a scanner and they showed them two kinds of porn and they measured their, like, penile blood flow, and one kind of porn was violent and the other included humiliation, and the rapists all liked the humiliation porn more than they did the violence porn, meaning that it wasn't about violence. It's about humiliation and, theoretically, or the theory, is that if you have been humiliated, you are going to want to reenact humiliation, but with role reversal where you are now the humiliator. So it you know, it's like I, I fear saying you want vengeance what you want vengeance.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

As you were saying before, if you were humiliated, you want vengeance.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean this is humiliate someone else well, this is why people who have been humiliated as children are at greater risk for abusing other people, because they spent their lives for a multitude of reasons, but one of them is that they've spent their little kid lives having like you are, by definition, at the losing end of a power dynamic. When you were a kid, every adult has more power than you.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

So, um, you know, if you spend your childhood being abused, you are kind of spending it being humiliated, and so, in order to get vengeance, you might not be able to take it out on like your abusers, but you might be able to take it out on others and at least at least reenact things so that you have the chance to be at the other end of that power distribution, and then that is going to make it more likely that you will sexually assault people or regularly assault, you know, confused women how was it like I mean talking about examples of and like the effects of what humiliation can do what was it like to get humiliated on online after the bachelor, like there's there.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I don't know if you feel like a total humiliation, but there have been, you know. You mentioned being being trolled or rumors against you and things like that.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean, I think the clearest example was probably the rumor that I was a racist drug addled whore who was also cheating on my boyfriend Bad.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, I was angry for three years you know I mean about that, but about other things, where it just felt like people were constantly doing power grabs online. Everything became about like, how can I make you feel bad about yourself and make you feel small and ignorant and like your opinions are unacceptable, and that made me angry and it made me I might have voted republican if there had been a less abhorrent person who was running, you know, like just to be like fuck you all. Um, yeah, I it. Well, I mean I, you know it was coupled with like making me really scared for my future. Um, but, yeah, I mean, I was pretty what's the word? Misanthropic for a while and, just like you know, I did not. I did not want to engage with human beings in the same way.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I was wondering what the what, the effects of humiliation like that humiliation, anger, fury. What did you do with it? What did you like? Did you seek vengeance, did you have fantasies of it, or did you just withdraw?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I certainly had fantasies of it. I mean, I became very obsessed with like politics, with identity politics and wanting to destroy a certain kind of liberal that like what's, what do we call it before virtue signaling wanted to like destroy the virtue signalers.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I was smart enough not to do something colossally stupid, I mean. But yeah, I mean, you remember, like my ex and I got all into that and it's. The same thing happened in Duke, right, Like as soon as we announced our relationship. Um, I don't. I don't know if humiliation is the exact right word, but it was kind of humiliating to have faculty and students that gossiping about us constantly and feeling justified in doing so.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And yeah, I mean we wanted to squash them like hard line in any direction, but it is interesting how um like, like very intense liberals, like virtue signaling, were the ones who were the most mean and shaming to you yeah.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

But also I will say, like a lot of times people would give me crap for playing like both sides or for like specifically picking on liberals. But I actually did not feel like the Republicans, who were mean to me, had more power than me. And that might have been the difference, and I don't necessarily know why, because they're all strangers on the Internet, but I guess because liberals are my friend group, that's like much more my own context. They, you know, duke, I don't think has hired a Republican in probably 75 years at least to the psychology department. I mean, it's just like all of our institutions were heavily, heavily liberal.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I see. So it really does fall into the you know, when we're talking about the definition of humiliation, of like. These people have power over you, these people have influence over your life, whereas you know, if you were shamed or or yelled at or criticized by someone who doesn't have any power over you, that doesn't have the same humiliating effect.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I was thinking about and reading about umiliation, one that popped up that we totally all forgot about was.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Monica Lewinsky. She's a 22-year-old girl who's working in the White House has, like the most charismatic man you know, take an interest in her. And then she I mean I was reading quotes that she said the public humiliation was excruciating, life was almost unbearable and she felt so crushed by it that she became suicidal. By it that she became suicidal. So it was only about she had to, like, go into hiding for a decade and slowly recover her own narrative of what happened. But now she's a anti-bullying advocate, which is amazing, but it's just like I think about that. And this poor girl who do you remember? We used to call her like Pepper Pot or something Like, just because? Do you remember that?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

No.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Oh yeah, they called her Pepper Pot because she just was, like you know, shapely. I was like three when this happened.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

But yeah, I mean it is appalling what this nation did to her. I would hope that we are past that kind of thing, you know. I mean, yeah, he got impeached, but he got to ride off into the sunset and still be this popular president who was just cool and had swagger, whereas she was like a college student who was called that and a whore, and all of the blame was placed on her somehow, even though he was the most powerful man in the world. I mean, it's like sheer insanity what she had to go through. And she was betrayed by her own friend and then betrayed by Bill Clinton and then betrayed by the media. I mean, I don't, I would be suicidal too. I don't know how she didn't.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

If anyone met her, if anyone said, oh hi, nice to meet you, monica Lewinsky. Like, the only thing you would think about is this right Like, unless you somehow have no idea who this person is, the only the only association you have with her is the right Having no dignity. Right Like there's. That is just like victim of humiliation, that poor woman.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, and they went after her looks, probably more than anything else, and that was just for no other reason than to humiliate her.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

It was like how could she dare to have this role, like, how could she dare to be this person who hooks up with the president looking like that? Right, it was just like it was just shaming because she looked like homely or whatever, like a pepper pot. I mean it's just terrible terrible.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

it's interesting, though, thinking about I haven't seen gender specific studies between, obviously, men and women, um, but you know, I mean men have much more of an urge to violence, and so it'd be interesting to see if women have a slightly different action, or if it's more about fantasy or something like that, um, or if women are less likely to feel humiliated in the same way, because we're kind of used to having a loss of status by virtue of being female and second class. I don't know, but sexual assault is such an obvious example of humiliation, but I don't actually usually hear those patients trying to get revenge.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, I mean, this is also happening in less extreme cases too, Like you know, I guess, with KulaMind too, and talking to members of our Kula Mind community and just people who have loved ones struggling with mental health. It's a lot of people who have partners who are struggling, and this is a theme in toxic relationships, right. Like we've talked about how contempt is one of the major killers of a long-term relationship, Like it's one of the best predictors of divorce.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So contempt is like a, you know, like the seed of it but, there's a lot of humiliating in in toxic relationships, right, there's a lot of like making fun of your partner in front of your friends, or, um, like making belittling remarks or you know. Just, I mean, it could be teasing, it could be jokes, it could be like outright you know, or, or like gossiping and saying, like spilling secrets about your partner that will make the whole friend group look at them differently, but there's a lot at them differently. But there's a lot of this kind of like. It's a lot of this writing power dynamics or trying to take over power of your partner through these different ways of taking away their power. Right, it's like it's more of a power play than it is about like, oh, we're a team and I'm trying to work through my anger or hurt with you.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, it's interesting because you had brought up narcissism. If you think about narcissistic injury, there's a humiliating quality to that without there necessarily needing to be a legit humiliation.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Done so like narcissistic injury seems to me as if it's kind of felt humiliation without validity, like sort of unjustified felt humiliation, right. So like somebody who is uh like, let's say, they're out with their girlfriend and she pokes fun at you or at him, um, or sort of flirts a little bit with another man, but it's sort of harmless. Whatever the narcissistic injury is going to feel like I need to hurt her I need to write the scales again. There is like a felt loss of status. Somehow that needs to be changed.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yes, I remember this happened to you right. You went to with your ex, you went to a comedy show and they said something about like you, like women, like this, and you nudged him and was like that's like you. And he went into a rage. He was like so mean to you he, you, I had to pick you up like crying in a on a street corner because he just was. So he felt so criticized or judged or embarrassed by that comment, even though there was no one around listening, like you were just whispering into his ear, right, like I said, yeah, it was a joke about virgins and his ex fiance had been a virgin, so I just like it's like you.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

How do you like virgins? And? And his ex-fiance had been a virgin. So I just like it's like you. How old do you like virgins? And then that's when he called me a prostitute in so many words and you had to pick me up. Yeah, which we've talked about. But yeah, exactly Like that, that, that relationship and the one prior early in my twenties. It was just narcissistic injury all over the place and it it seems like the, the emotion that they may have been feeling was a kind of humiliation, almost like they're, they're finding humiliation.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Well, I was reading that humiliation, of course, has really bad effects on mental health, right? It's like if there's any tip you want to take away from this conversation is humiliation is not good. Like, don't do it. It doesn't teach people how to be better, it doesn't make you closer, it doesn't actually get you that much power and it yeah, like the other person just gets angry, wants vengeance right, it's just not effective if you want to connect. If you want to be a mean person, go ahead and humiliate all you want.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

But, most people listening to this are not bad people. So I read that. It's especially at least of depression, right? Social anxiety, avoidant personality disorder and suicide. Did I say suicidality already it makes you sad Okay.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So accumulation makes you mentally strong, makes you mentally ill and it's more. It's, it has a bigger impact on people with a fragile sense of self right, like when you already don't feel, when you already feel insecure about your status or your identity. Right, your own power in the world. If someone rips it away from you and humiliates you, you were going to react to it. And now, if you're a confident person who's just like, you know what? I'm a decent person. I know people love me, you know whatever. And then someone tries to humiliate me and be like whatever.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

But, for narcissists, who have such a fragile sense of status right Like you know, if they already feel like their whole worth is wrapped up in this one status being powerful or beautiful or rich or successful and someone questions it, so, like dings on that one piece and they already feel insecure about it. They're going to feel humiliated because, even if it's like haha, a little joke, they are like I was just publicly, um, ridiculed and my whole worth was questioned, Right, so they're going to feel like they're like they were humiliated when, in fact, like, the effects of it might not be as humiliating, right Like it's almost like delusion of seeing humiliation and things that are not actually as threatening to your status as they think it is.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah Well, and that could also be because you know, if you're narcissistic or fragile, then it's not implausible that you felt a lot of humiliation early in life and that's why you have such a fragile sense of self is that you were disempowered a lot or you were treated as if you didn't matter, and so of course, you're not going to want to feel that, not going to want to feel that, but it's interesting. Political implications too, like this is why Hitler rose to power was that Germany was humiliated in the Treaty of Versailles after World War One. So you got this guy coming and speaking to that and speaking about revenge. We are going to show the world the power of Germany and punish them for what they've done to us. And here's a scapegoat the jewish were named.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

But whatever I mean, it's like interesting thinking about israel and palestine. You know, like they may their game may be that they're just going to humiliate palestine into oblivion so that because otherwise it's, I would think it could become a terrorist hotbed. I mean, if I, if I were Palestinian right now, I'd sure as shit want to like rise up against Israel.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean you have these outstanding conflicts, yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, and I I've talked about how, um that I had to. I put a post on the cool of mine, instagram, um, about a situation that I've been hearing a lot, which is women who are noticing that their partners are, um, getting angrier, drinking more, lashing out, going on these, you know, really like, uh, man is like a manosphere, like influencers on YouTube or something that say like, oh, we, you know, men have to rise up, right? So there's a lot of women are noticing in their partners. I posted about that and I got a ton of men who just, like were just trolling me up like every single day, like, well, it's because you made us feel small and it's your fault and you did this to us, and this is why we are waking up and like fighting back. And I was like whoa, like I I honestly like had no idea, naively, that men felt so humiliated by women or by society, right, and so it is seeing this and I probably I did something wrong.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Now that I think about it, I, in my caption, I wrote about how I think this is a, you know, driven by shame, that there's a lot of feeling disem. I said that this anger that they're expressing might be a sign of shame. Men were like no, you're an idiot, you're a liberal. Women are the stupidest reason why I'm like this, and you should probably give more blowjobs to your husband. Blah, blah, blah. I was like whoa, but now I realize that maybe I stepped in it because maybe I said it was shame, which meant that they feel bad about themselves, but maybe it's just humiliation. They feel humiliated, they feel like you, being a man, the way you were taught is bad, and they're like well, I still think it's good, but now I feel like no, like I don't have any power and my status is questioned, and they're just angry now and they're just angry now, whoops.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Well, it's an interesting thing we've done, which is try to wound the status of a group of people who have a lot of power, because they're in a very good position to seek that vengeance, and they did in the voting booth and now with violence and with kind of recapturing patriarchal culture. Um, so yeah, we probably want to be pretty careful about who we try like, whose status we try to bring down, because if, if you still have a lot of power, then you're probably not going to put up with it is this why the?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

democrats should not have fucking ignored men, so dumb yeah, also to bring it out of the political and social sphere. It is humiliation is a terrible parenting strategy.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I think that was I we are.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Our generation is a little different. Our generation is way more empathetic. But humiliating your kid or teaching them through shaming or criticizing or making fun of them does not work.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Did you see what is her name? Maddie, a bachelor girl. She won Peter's season, or she kind of did not. Hannah Ann, but the other chick.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Oh, the one, the Susie, susie, ann, no, ann, no no, that's a different season.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Madison pruitt, beloved, has like two million followers. I never really understood this um, she just kind of came across to me as like a just another average kind of contestant. She and her husband had a baby named hasana first of all, or hasana very biblical name and they went on a podcast and bragged about their intentions to spank their child, to spank hasana when she is a little bit older, and they talked about how this was justified biblically, because there's some talk of like using the rod on people. Actually, there's a different interpretation and they were like very proud of this. And, of course, this has caused a huge stir Because spanking is humiliating. Naturally, that's what it is. It doesn't. Spanking doesn't have to hurt, right? It doesn't actually have to be violence. It is about overpowering your child and interesting.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I was, I was, I was, I was like what, I was trying to follow you because, like I thought spanking was more using like pain as punishment.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

But I, I see yeah, I mean it's interesting, right. It's kind of like some people beat their kids. They use like belts or rods or something that's incredibly painful, and I think that they're thinking that the intervention is using pain as a way to you know, as a form of aversive therapy. I don't want to feel pain, so therefore I'll stop doing this, but spanking doesn't necessarily hurt. I mean, if you're just using your hand right and spank, like you know, half the women in the world like being spanked, I mean it's not. It's not about pain, it's about humiliation and it's a really bad punishment strategy. It's like a really, really bad for behavior change because that is just going to teach all sorts of bad lessons. But it's it's.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

It's going to teach the little kid that they are debased and debasable and that their parents will, you know, overpower them in ways that are incredibly invasive and violating and they're probably going to get pretty fucking angry and this reminds me of a battle that I had with my mom, of course, but there was this family event where and I think that maybe the Chinese, I don't know if we tend to humiliate more, but it's definitely a critical criticizing like a child in public is a little bit more acceptable and maybe not seen as as critical. But, for example, we were at a family event and I was getting dressed I think it was a funeral actually, which makes it even crazier but, um, and my mom talked about my weight in front of everyone. She was like you have gotten, you've gotten fat, you've gained a lot of weight. Um, and I was humiliated. I was so embarrassed, I was so um.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I was so angry and my family I'll never forget this was so weird. My family, like some of them, defended me and some of them were like no, this is, this is. Your mother is trying to do a nice thing. She's trying to point out, in a way that you would notice, that you need to fix this. You need to, like, lose weight, and I think people would see you better if you like. They literally said this I'm not, this is not like a. They said. They literally said this. This is not like a. They actually said you would stop dating these student types and actually date valuable men if you lost weight. And her saying this to you in public is like the way to make you do this. And I was like what I'm like? I'm American, I'm like you don't talk, you know, like body positivity, you know, but you got married to your first husband, so it's bad.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Ah, that's why it's not about my core beliefs or my psychodynamics, and you know it's. It's just cause I was, you know, 10 pounds too heavy. But yeah, it's like, humiliation is not an effective thing to do If you want it, no one. It doesn't promote growth. It doesn't promote change. It might make someone compliant because you plucked all their you know fancy feathers out, but if you know, I think we're past the point of using just power and fear and domination as a way to like promote connection or raising kids, right, yeah, I assume.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

There may be interesting cultural studies around this. I mean, I was just talking to my supervisor about spanking issue and she said that somebody studied spanking in Hispanic cultures and they actually found that the most effective parenting were parents who were warm and spanked. Um, as opposed to, like, you know, cold or um, I guess, like warm but didn't spank. But that doesn't mean that spanking is good. It could mean things like in a culture where spanking is kind of the only known punishment, then people who aren't spanking might be a bit too permissive. They may not have other alternatives that are being effective. Um, or they're just like, could like, like.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Like disciplining without spanking is actually kind of difficult. You have to. You know, there's all these debates about, like, gentle parenting versus, um, you know, like, authoritative parenting, which entails some kind of finesse in like how you speak to your kids, how you give them options, how you help them understand the possible consequences of their behavior, um, how you can develop a, the possible consequences of their behavior, how you can develop a stern yet loving tone. It's actually kind of an advanced thing to do, and so if you live in a place where the primary form of discipline is spanking, then there might not be much of a replacement for that. I don't know she had some elegant other hypotheses to this, but it would be interesting to study in other populations. But yeah, I mean we have a lot of data showing that humiliation is a pretty bad thing.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Well it's also. Then we're really understanding what the impacts. And how big is the impact of humiliation If? If humiliation is an authority figure kind of ripping away, taking away your status, your status and identity, then I imagine that it's worse if one of if like how bad that annihilation of your identity is, right it's. It will be worse if that authority figure really takes away everything right it's. It would be worse if that authority figure really takes away everything. Right, it takes away your whole identity. Um, really thinks badly of you, right that the identity is completely gone. Right, which would be it in the case of a parent spanking their kid who doesn't show love in other ways, right, like?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

if.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I'm spanking you and I'm not spanking you in a way that you like really feel the brunt of the lack of love. But if it might be different, if you're like, oh, my parents love me and they don't think terribly, if they're not like completely taking away my dignity, right, um, then it might have a different impact. And also from the other side, then it might have a different impact. And also from the other side, the victim. If, if I am human, if, like my husband makes fun of me in public, I'm probably going to feel not as bad, unless I A had, was more insecure and, like my status and identity were more fragile, or I I really thought that he didn't love me or respect me in other ways, right, so it would just have a different impact of, like, how much is this humiliation annihilating that identity?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, and there's a lot of. There's a lot of different audience size. We see that the mental health consequences are steeper. The there's like a direct correlation with the size of the audience.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Interesting.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

You know, my training director humiliating me is going to feel worse than like a junior supervisor humiliating me.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

So, yeah, it's kind of proximity to power kind of thing, your own sort of initial standing, your own self-esteem, how kind of like, um, your own sort of initial standing, your own self-esteem, how kind of like deviant or societally like inappropriate the humiliation is. So yeah, I mean, but it's it, it's. This really is an interesting topic, especially thinking about like narcissistic injury and how this is the impact versus intent thing, like sometimes intent isn't there but the impact still could be, as in the case with narcissistic injury. And sometimes, of course, the intent could be there but the impact isn't, because you have a resilient self-esteem but it is difficult to know what to do with it in a treatment setting, especially like with trauma. I mean schema therapy is difficult to know what to do with in a treatment setting, especially like with trauma. I mean schema therapy is an idea, right, like resurrecting that person's self-esteem, but a lot of times this is very hard to get over if there hasn't been um a writing of the scales.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Mm-hmm, I was wondering what the tips would be. I was wondering what the tips would be Like if I, if you, or anyone has experienced experienced this kind of humiliation and they feel like it is traumatic in many ways. Right, like you, something important to you, like your identity was taken away and it's we're such social beings that that is risking your life and safety. Right, if, if, like poor Monica Lewinsky, can't go around without being hated, right, it's, it's a, it's a big deal. So what do you do? I mean, we could throw out ideas, but is there any like treatments for humiliation?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I don't think there's any treatment specifically for humiliation, but there are component things you can do. I mean, I think first of all you have to determine whether it's a humiliation that can be rectified. If it can be, it might actually be the best idea to just go ahead and do it. I don't necessarily mean by taking revenge necessarily, but there has been research shown that the victim doesn't actually have to be the person who writes the scales in order for that victim to see benefit. So this is why something like allyship is important. You know, if your friend, marginalized friend, has been insulted, then you as the ally, can actually rectify the scales for them and say like hey, that was racist, that wasn't cool, that you know.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Whatever the case may be, punch them in the face. Who cares? Um, so you know, if, if that can be done in a way that isn't going to uh boomerang and cause more issues, then that could be kind of the first thing. I think it can be tempting for loved ones to accidentally invalidate by saying like oh, don't feel that way, like that guy's dumbass, you know, like you shouldn't feel, shouldn't feel bad about what he said, like discrediting that person's authority Right.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Which, like it's not necessarily bad to discredit the authority, but you want to make sure that you're validating the humiliated feelings Because you don't then want to be kind of not re-humilated, but like it is such an intense emotion that anybody trying to talk you out of it is probably going to backfire. Mm-hmm, anybody trying to talk you out of it is probably going to backfire. Um, so, probably, you know. So we always say validate, validate, validate. But, um, you know, finding a way to do that that doesn't rile them up further, but may come with a plan of action Like how do we want to rectify your loss of status? How do we maybe want to confront this person? Um, how do we maybe want to confront this person?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Um, you know, without major consequences, working on core beliefs, you know, kind of with a therapist, like really trying to understand, you know how to kind of repair some, some wounds, and I also think the humiliating person has to like something like act therapy can be helpful, which is, yes, you carry this painful emotion, and can that emotion be carried while you go on with your life? Does it have to actually be dealt with? Does it have to be the driving force in your life or can it to actually be dealt with? Does it have to be the driving force in your life, or can it be something that is allowed to exist and also the rest of you does too? What ideas do you have?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, I was thinking about how it's kind of the way we talk about envy or yeah, just any kind of like power, someone taking away your power. You could go two ways. One way is seek vengeance by taking away that other person's power right. Write the scales right. Someone hurt you, belittled you. You belittle them right back. We've talked about how that's what people are going for and that might not be good, because then it's just like back and forth rage against each other, and that might not be good because then it's just like back and forth rage against each other.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So instead, instead of trying to take down someone else's power, you could just bolster your own power, right? So just reading about how research suggests that some people experience post-humiliation growth, similar to post-traumatic growth, where if someone is, if your whole identity and status has been annihilated, then you can find ways to find a new sense of purpose, a new identity, strengthen identity you did have but was, you know, under threat, or find wisdom in that. So, you know, trying to trying to build, build yourself back up by thinking about, like, what do you value? How do I want to show up in the world? What did they take away from me? That's important. And how do I just live and show up in that way, hoping that over time the reputation, status and external view of that follows along eventually, right? So someone calls you like a bad person or you're stupid or whatever. Like, how can you just show up in the way that you know that's like good and saying one day people will see it?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, right, yeah, I think getting really clear on the costs of revenge is important too. Have you ever read or watched the Count of Monte Cristo? Have you read it or have you just watched?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

it. I read it a long time ago. I think it was in college.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, okay, so you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I started by watching the newer version of it with jim caviezel, who's one of the hottest men accused of something he is thrown into a dungeon for like a thousand years.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

He, you know his perpetrator takes his fiancee as his own and the rest of the movie is all about him seeking revenge. And the interesting thing is that in the new movie he gets his revenge and he gets the girl, and he gets his riches and he gets his son and he walks off into the sunset and the humiliation has been rectified and happy, ever, happily, ever after. But then I saw in french class the old version of the movie, which I'm pretty sure has the same ending as the book, which is that he takes his revenge and then he loses the girl and he loses the son and maybe he has his money, but the idea is that he has. So, you know, he's been disempowered and he sought his revenge. But through seeking revenge he traded his soul, essentially, and his woman wanted nothing to do with it. And so it. You know, it's just, and this is important because there are, there are economic studies that show that, with using game theory, that participants will actually punish themselves in order to punish an unfair other.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

And then afterwards they don't regret it, they feel better. They're like this was a fantastic idea. Yeah, I walk away with less money, but fuck that guy, isn't that worth it? It's like what, and you know. Evolutionary speaking, again, this makes sense. We have to protect our status, but I think people can make some knee jerk reactions and think that revenge is going to be worth it and they actually lose in the long term.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, that's really interesting.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean humiliation. It puts you so out of control of your emotions that our justice system literally makes way for this, where, if you, you are only convicted of murder if it's premeditated, but if you kill in the heat of passion, it's manslaughter, and that comes with a lesser punishment, even though it's the same crime. And the number one kind of emotion associated with manslaughter is anger by way of humiliation. And so I wonder if emotion regulation is going to be helpful.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Sorry, that's really interesting, I think. I mean, we could go on and on about this, but it seems to be that like it might've been at some point in our evolution like revenge and cutting your nose to spite the face of, like just screwing over the other person, screwing over your competitor, might have been the best way for you to get ahead. But now, in our complex society, maybe it's not. Maybe it's like no revenge is going to take too much. It's going to take um too much effort, um, you're going to just create another enemy, even more enemy, make everyone else mad, and no one actually likes what it looks like when you take revenge. So try to just rise above. Rise above the humiliation.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I just think it's context dependent. Sometimes it's appropriate, but, yeah, you just want to take the time to, you know, really really think about it instead of acting in fashion. Yeah, but I think I think it has really really interesting implications if an index trauma, so, like you know, a rape or something like that is naturally humiliating and how that would, how that would make treatments different, and that's kind of beyond our scope, but it's, I feel like that's the next frontier of research that could be cool.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Well, I have appreciated this because it was making me really I've learned a lot, I think I've really I appreciate that you suggested this. I I always thought humiliation was just like a big, bigger, extreme form of shame, but it's a lot more complex than that and, yeah, this is cool.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Amazing. Well, if you don't want us to feel publicly humiliated, then please give us a five-star rating on Apple podcasts and Spotify and do not leave us a humiliatingly bad comment. That would be terrible, and we'll see you next week. By accessing this podcast, I acknowledge that the hosts of this podcast make no warranty, guarantee or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of the information featured in this podcast. The information, opinions and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only and do not constitute the practice of medical or any other professional judgment advice, diagnosis or treatment, and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment advice. Thank you, as service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast and information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement.