A Little Help For Our Friends

Manifestation: Path to Your Dreams or Just Wishful Thinking?

• Jacqueline Trumbull and Kibby McMahon • Season 5 • Episode 157

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What happens when two skeptical psychologists take a deep dive into the world of manifestation? In this episode, we take a look at what "manifestation" is, what is actually based in science...and then we try manifesting for real. 

We start by acknowledging our initial skepticism about the idea that you can get everything you want just by thinking about it- a practice that became popular from the book "The Secret." But as we peel back the layers, we discover powerful psychological mechanisms that explain why some manifestation practices genuinely work.

Through stories ranging from Jim Carrey's famous $10 million check to trust fund influencers selling "relaxed rich" lifestyles, we explore how self-fulfilling prophecies shape our reality. The science is clear: our internal narratives affect everything from body language to risk-taking behavior, creating tangible consequences in our external world. We talk about different manifestation techniques like visualization, journaling, and affirmations to see what's based in science and what's snake oil.

We even conduct a live manifestation experiment, combining breathing techniques with visualization, resulting in surprising personal insights about blocks to success. We discovery why changing your self-talk might be the most powerful step toward changing your reality with no mystical vibrations required.

And if you want to learn actual evidence-based skills for connecting deeper to yourself and others, check out KulaMind. 

As a bonus, growing the @kulamind community is what Kibby manifests in this episode so...you'll be showing the power of manifestation by joining :)

Resources:

  • The book that started it all: Byrne, R. (2011). The secret. simon and schuster.
  • Example of a manifestation influencer Kibby talks about: https://www.instagram.com/jasminmankecoaching
  • The meditation series Jacqueline talks about: https://open.spotify.com/show/74VqceuJUvRLIYQ0ZVbAv8?si=13V-FQMlTM-PGdfD_mnLcQ

Support the show


  • Follow @kulamind on Instagram for podcast updates and science-backed insights on staying sane while loving someone emotionally explosive.


Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Hey guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Little Helpers, we have an exciting one today. We talked about it a little bit earlier and we were going a little bit out of our wheelhouse, but also I think it's very much in our wheelhouse. The episode is Manifestation. This is going to be part one. I think we're going to attempt to do a part two of us actually acting as if we believe in manifestation, almost manifesting our manifestation, and see if we notice any changes. But for now, we're going to talk about, like, what the science actually says and what we know about why manifestation may or may not work from a clinical psychology perspective. Um Kibbe, how can Kula Mind help with manifestation?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Well, some of my manifestations will be to grow the Kula Mind community as well as Instagram. So I don't even know if you're allowed to manifest those really specific things. But, yeah, kula Mind is our community and skills group and platform and all the things to help you cope with loved ones who are struggling with mental illness. So if you love someone who's exploding in anger or drinking too much, having a drug problem or just someone who's difficult in your life and you need help and strategies and support, check out Kula Mind. The link is in the show notes or you could check out K-U-L-A-M-I-N-Dcom or Kula Mind K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D on Instagram, because that's you know, you could also help me with my manifestation of growing this amazing community.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

So we've been looking forward to doing this episode for a while. I forget we mentioned it on a different episode and I was like we should do a manifestation episode. And then you're kind of like, nah, probably because as scientists we hear manifestation and we poo, poo it a little bit.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

What I can say is that I would think of manifestation itself as kind of bullshit, but also like there are clearly signs, there are clearly elements of it that we know work as therapists. I then went to the christening of my godson and my. The parents are, like both my best friends and they're very, very smart people. Um, they do a lot of like research and everything and they're they're kabbalists and like gnostic christians I think. Actually, she is kabbalah, he is gnostic, and they go to this gnostic church and, um, they're very into like hardcore meditation practices and manifestation practices and they were telling me about their experiences with meditation and I don't know like how much I buy it, but when my own friends, who I view as very smart and respect a lot, talk about something with a lot of positivity, I'm more likely to then like go and explore it a little bit.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

So, um, I've been on at least a meditation journey since then and have been trying to kind of open my mind a little bit to manifestation Um, and it's a juicy topic, like I think. I think there's a lot to get into. And then you kind of got on board, and I know you've been tell me your experience of like manifestation. I don't know, man, I don't know.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I'll believe in anything at this point. I just I've been on Instagram for too long, too many hours of the day these days and I'm just seeing all these like manifestation influencers, who, I mean, this is what it looks like to me, without knowing. You know, really I'm not a manifestation expert, but it looks like you go think yourself. Like it's from the the like. What is it the secret? Or the laws? What is it called? Like this, is it just the secret? Yeah, it's like law of attraction. You just think, if you want something, it's like law of attraction. You just think, if you want something, think it, believe in it, pretend it's real and then it'll come to you. And I'm like at first I was like, oh, rolling my eyes because, as we'll get into, there are some problems with that. But also there's some things that are kind of true. There's some things that are kind of true, like, yeah, I just may be thinking to myself about how much lately I the signs of I'm not good enough or I'm not. You know, of course, I'm not going to be successful. I'm so stupid. Blah, blah, blah. Right, I have so many negative thoughts. And these influencers are like, yeah, you're attaching these thoughts and that energy to everything you do and I'm like, ok, yeah, there might be. I might be like self-sabotaging by constantly thinking about the negative stuff, right, and just like biasing my view of just like I'm negative. I'm negative, what would happen if I just believed in myself, right, and there's this.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

There's this famous story of Jim Carrey. There's this famous story of Jim Carrey, who was super. Most people should know who he is, but there's some people, some people didn't know who Jim Carrey was. I was like, oh my God, dating myself, but Jim Carrey was broke and not famous and he struggles with depression a lot. But he wrote himself a check for $10 million for acting services rendered, dated like five years into the future, and he just like carried it around with him right, like he just believed like this, acting as though this goal came true.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And then 1995 or 1994, it was like the Jim Carrey year he came out with like Dumb and dumber that paid him 10 million dollars. And then he was like Ace Ventura and the mask, like he's just, he just exploded, right, and I mean that might not be exactly a true story, but that's an example of when someone just goes okay, I have a mental Pinterest board. This is my goal and I'm going to get to it and that actually helps them get there. So I don't know I'll believe anything at this point.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, I think the you know what you started with was actually a point I wanted to make, which is that I think we can see how manifestation works when we think about negative manifestation. It actually seems pretty self-evident that when we uh man, negatively manifest, right, like when we tell ourselves we're ugly, we're unsuccessful, we're worthless, we suck, then life starts giving us negativity and, um, for instance, I struggle with body image a lot, right. So when I tell myself I'm ugly and fat and old, yada, yada, yada, I'm going to start like hunching my shoulders and like I don't know, um, not like presenting very confidently. I'm not going to have that kind of glow of confidence that says I'm hot, I know I'm hot. Like you know, here we were, you should think I'm beautiful too.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

A lot of times, like, what we find beautiful is just another person giving us the confidence to find them attractive. Like when another person says, of course I'm beautiful, then you're, you're much more likely to find them attractive because we are drawn to confidence. We're drawn to other people telling us, like, what's true, I had a friend who was an actress and she kept not booking, even though she's talented, and I kind of thought to myself maybe it's because she goes in there with this attitude of like the universe hates me, I never get anything good. You know, like people suck, they don't like me. Why, why is it never me? And I'm like no one's going to want to hire that person, right?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Um, if you tell yourself like that you just can't do anything right and you're going to fail at everything you try, then you're probably not going to try anything. So when you tell yourself all these negative stories, it makes sense that negative things will happen, or at least non-good things will happen. You'll prevent yourself from getting good things, and we would just call that like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we say I don't believe in good love, right, I don't, or I don't sorry, I don't deserve a really good love, I don't deserve a really good man, then you won't have one because you'll date, you know shitheads and so like that's all stuff that we already know. And so it would make sense that flipping the script would at least have some sort of positive benefit.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, I, even right before this, I was reminded of it.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Just like. This is all like self fulfilling prophecies, right? If we walk around with a belief, we're going to look for things that confirm the belief. It just is easier than learning something completely new, right? If we're like, oh, no one likes me and I'm broken, we're going to look around confirming that, because it's way harder to be like maybe not Like, what does that look like? Right, you have to change everything. You know. I just like thinking about wanting to grow Coola Mind and really like boost up the community and make it so useful.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I realized I've been doing this all the time. I write to my team members all the time about, like, what we need to improve, right, sometimes I'm like I'm not doing this. Well, I'm so sorry. You know, like I'm constantly focused on what I haven't done yet and what I've done badly. And in the conversation I was like they were all trying to work out something and I was like oh, wait, a minute, I haven't told you.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I got like five new messages from members saying how useful it was and how much they loved it, how they had a breakthrough, and I just started sharing those with them and they were like whoa, I had no idea you just been saying that this was like, this was a problem or that this bug on the app doesn't work, whatever that. As soon as I was like wait a minute, if I just keep putting forward this negative view, it's just going to like it just, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. But if I'm like wait a minute, I've like the cool mind. Community is already awesome, you know, look at all these great stuff that's happening. Yeah it just. I mean it's just. It's just like training your attention to. There's so many things going on, good and bad, and what do you want to focus on?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

well, I mean, I think that's part of it.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I mean, you're talking about confirmation bias, like if I have a belief and then I will start noticing things that conform to that belief and that will build my worldview. But I also think that there's a genuine. I think that manifestation can generate actual change. Like we notice this with art all the time. The time. If we have a painting, like an abstract painting, and I am somebody who owns an art gallery and I tell everyone this painting is complete trash, it's so ugly, oh my God, Don't you think so too? Everyone will be like, oh yeah, you're right, that's ugly, and they'll genuinely think it's ugly.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

But if you go in there and you're like this is fucking avant-garde, this is iconoclastic, oh my God, the artist who did this is just brilliant. Have you ever seen anything like this? And all of a sudden, people will start seeing it in a different way. That's not necessarily confirmation bias, like. I think confirmation bias is a part of this right. Like, if you are only looking at the negatives in your life, then you'll start seeing only the negatives and then you'll be less happy, only the negatives, and then you'll be less happy. But also, if you, if you act as if, or if you start believing, you know, in the good, it's not just that you'll see more good. It's that you'll generate more good because you'll influence other people.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, yeah, I always yeah, it's like in your behaviors too. Like what kind of opportunities do you see? What do you what? What do you? Oh yeah, when it comes to other people. That's what I always found fascinating with like influencing other people, because I inherently do believe that when you, when you believe you're, you know, when you act confident or believe yourself confident, other people will take that too, especially if it's like putting a value on a piece of art which is like that is like that's objective, like what, what we value, what like what? What do we think it's worth?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

But if you do it on yourself, if I'm walking into a room with a bunch of strangers and they're like who's Kibbe and I act like I'm the shit and that everyone has treated me well, they're going to I, I. This is my, my theory that they're like oh, based on the data of her entire life, people have treated her like the shit. So I only have this one piece of data her walking in her room. I don't know her, she knows herself and she is carrying with her a lifetime of positive feedback, so she must be worthy, right? Same thing with like a piece of art. If, like like, historically everyone has found it valuable, then you're going to find it valuable Cause you, we walk in trying to gather information based on, like context clues, right? So a context clue of like I already have all the things other people are gonna be like, well, I believe you, you're the one who, who knows more than I do yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Um, so I mean we, we, we know that there is some value towards saying, like, if I decide today to just, instead of telling myself constantly that I'm fat and gross, to tell myself I am beautiful as I am, I'm super hot, anybody would be lucky to have me, jason, wow, what a lucky guy. You know like, um, people are going to find me beautiful. Then there's like I would think that there would be a measurable difference in the way that people respond to me, because and if I can make myself genuinely believe that, then great. There has been a study shown showing, however, that if you don't really believe like this is it's such a struggle, right, because I'll have clients who just beat the shit out of themselves mentally. They like tell themselves they're ugly, they're unsuccessful, you know that they're a loser, they can't do anything right, and it's frustrating because I'm like, okay, how does that help you telling yourself that? How does it help? And it it doesn't. You know I mean, for for some people, being harder on themselves helps them, like get the motivation to try even harder, but for the majority of people, I would say it mainly just tanks their motivation and just makes them feel like they can't do anything, that they'll fail at anything they try. So it's like how is this helping? Can we? Can we change this? And I, you know affirmations have a super cheesy connotation to them, so I always hesitate to suggest them.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

But at the same time, if you start changing the way that you talk to yourself, if you start changing the way that you think about yourself, that can have power. The problem is apparently that if you start saying things that are really hard to believe, then that can actually make you feel worse about yourself. Um, and that's like kind of a tricky thing. If I were to tell myself I weigh 115 pounds, then that would be tough because, objectively, I do not weigh 115 pounds, so why would I ever believe that? Right, and then I'm just basically focusing myself on this reality that, like isn't true, and then I'm just going to notice the Delta between what is true and what isn't true and that, like isn't true. And then I'm just going to notice the Delta between what is true and what isn't true and that's going to make me feel worse. Um, yeah, but I guess you know, if I start from, I'm a complete piece of shit and kind of work myself up to like well, there are actually worse pieces of shit than me, and I'm like possible.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Well, you can train up. Well, you can trade up. Wait before. Okay, before we dive into like whether it works, can do you actually know? I don't know. Do you know what the definition and limits of manifestation actually is? Because? Is it any goal? Is it like like? Can you manifest? Like like I've seen, you know, on Instagram? Like manifest wealth right, there's like like tangible outcomes. Or is it like manifest beauty? Or like what? What can you manifest? What can't?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

you. Well, I think, given that this is not a scientific construct, I don't know that there's much of a definition I mean I think, I think my friends would say like you can't, first of all, you can't manifest things for other people necessarily, although she did why?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

not because so manifestation could only be selfish.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

For your own gain, I mean I'm I would have to talk to her again because basically she's like, okay, she did actually manifest something for me. She really hated my ex-fiance and um she. All she manifested was that he would show his true face to me before we got married. And she specifically chose that because she's like I cannot manifest that they break up because it's not my life, it's not my desire. That's like fucking with somebody else's trajectory. That's not right. You know who am I to say that this person is right for her or wrong for her? You know who am I to say that this person is right for her or wrong for her? So she's like, can't manifest something like that. But could I, could potentially manifest just that that she sees the reality of what she's in and then makes a decision that's right for her based on that. Whatever she wants to do, as long as she understands the truth, is good. So that's what she attempted to manifest okay.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

But so this friend, yeah, was very helpful but very instrumental in being very vocal about like this this partnership is problematic. Like she didn't like yeah, I mean, I think it might be interesting that it's what she focused on. What she decided to manifest was like not some, not like a particular outcome, I guess, or or like, uh, like you gotta break up or not, but like I just want her to see and make her own decision. So it gave you, gave you some agency. But to be fair, it wasn't like she just manifested and then it happened. She did stuff.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Like she was like, hey, everyone should notice this yeah, I mean, I think I think when she because she actually believes in like the universe's energy and not actually having sway, and I think when she was leaving it up to the universe, she's like I can't have too much of a hand in this, the universe has just got to show her the truth, and that's it. That's all I'm going to ask for. But she herself can still have agency and say he's a piece of shit and it's like tell me that. But.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean, but, but you're it is true, there is this problem of like well, do we want people to just manifest by sitting there thinking to themselves oh, I'm wealthy, I'm wealthy, I'm wealthy, I'm wealthy, I'm wealthy, I'm wealthy. Okay, yes, now we'll wait and see what happens. That that would not be good.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, okay.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So it's not a passive thing where you just like want something and then it comes right, which is kind of how it's advertised a lot of times just think and it will come. What I don't fully understand is and if anyone listening knows more about manifestation in a real way, you're welcome to like send us a message and tell us about it, because I honestly don't know, but from what I read, it's a new thought philosophy that became popular around like the mid 2000s with the book the Secret, I guess, and it's like it's like there's a mystical part to it. Right, it's like you could raise your vibration and manifest these things, and I don't fully understand that part, although when I hear it, there's a part of me that's like roll, eye rolly. But then there's another part that's like oh, that feels so nice, like that just felt, like I don't have to do it. It just feels like there's something outside of my thinky things, like my efforts, my over-functioning, that can magically make this happen without me having it releases some responsibility and burden.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

When I hear vibration, but then I'm like, what the fuck is that? Like? What do you mean? Vibration where? Yeah, I mean, I think what do you mean? Vibration where?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean I think okay, like the like these friends right, have a spiritual approach to manifestation and, um, they will do manifestation after deep meditation and it's like energetic meditation where they're like pulling energy from the core of the earth, or like I'm doing this meditation series called the gateway experience, and what I'll say is that I don't know if this shit manifests anything but in terms of putting you into a deeply relaxed state and like putting you into different mental states. It is amazing, Like I've never experienced anything like this, and part of the gateway experience is you have like an energy conversion box where you like put all of your negative, like all of your concerns and your physical body and everything like into this box and you shut it. And then you do this um, like energetic practice where you're like sucking, you're basically just breathing in air up to your head and that's supposed to like breathing good energy into your head, and then you are blowing out, while humming, old, stale energy and then you make this energetic balloon around you of the new energy and then you go into these like altered states. Okay, From a scientific perspective, is this universe energy shit? I don't know Like no, there's no evidence, right? That manifestation is about like harnessing the universe's energies, at least not in the psychological research.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Um, that's going into the spiritual realm and so you kind of have to decide for yourself whether that is like legit or not. Um, all I know is that, like you know, meditations, hypnosis, they can put you into altered states of consciousness, and then is there a connection between that and manifestation? My friends believe it, but my friends are not like you. Listeners have no reason to believe my friends. They're just like my friends. Um, so so I, you know, I don't, I don't know. That would be the argument that, like, I am actually harnessing the universe's energy to like change some sort of like energetic fabric around myself. That aligns me more with my goal In the psychological research. There's actually a problem with just visualizing nice things, like visualizing your goals, and the actual better way to do it is to visualize the steps and effort it takes to get to that goal.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, I mean I actually do believe in energy and I mean I still read tarot cards and you know I was a yoga teacher time and and I seen amazing things when I went to Thailand and there was like sometimes like energy transfers between people that I really can't explain in any other way, like people were able to walk, you know, just from a massage. Essentially it was crazy. But so I do believe that there is a lot that we don't understand and, just to you know, wash them away is not real. I don't think it's fair. I, just I.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And actually, when you just did the part that we know from science actually stimulates the vagus nerve. You know that's, that's um paste breathing right To like breathe out and make noise. And even in Sanskrit this was so cool. I wish I knew, I wish I knew more of the details. But in Sanskrit that was Sanskrit is used for you know those mantras and chanting, because Sanskrit is actually a very physical and and I've got musical language that uses different parts of the mouth and intentionally will vibrate like different sounds, will vibrate different parts of the body, like different parts of your upper, upper throat or back of the neck or whatever, and that's supposed to stimulate different chakras or different energy centers. So they're, they're I mean like, not awesome, like, but it's just there. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just saying like, I think there is something about that, I just, but there's also a part of me that gets like crabby about the whole. Like I just raise my vibration and get wealthy. Yeah, that just bothers me.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I don't know why. What does?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

the thing on the biggest group do, like the pace breathing from dbt. When you breathe out for a long period of time, like right, that stimulates your parasympathetic nervous system. And I think there's some particular um, uh now I'm forgetting but like different uh restrictions of your throat. When you, when you like, breathe out, or like the oceanic breathing in in yoga, that restricts your throat, so it pushes on the vagus nerve, so it actually calms you down as well. That's why you get a little like loopy, because like we go or something like that, like oh, like you're actually tensing don't do it exactly like I did.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

It's just, it's horrible, but it actually like, not like.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Right now I feel a little bit lightheaded because I just like stimulated like my vagus nerve, and so I feel a little like heady, cool yeah yeah, I mean the gateway experience I believe was developed at washington university for st, at st louis, which is like a super legit school that waitlisted me back when I applied. Um, so I mean, it's like it's it uses bilateral, like uh, uh, audio stimulation. Like you have to wear headphones when you do it and you get like different sounds in each ear, and um, it like uses a kind of hypnosis. It's it's really cool. Um, so there, you know there's like science behind it.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

But yeah, I mean, of course there's something bothersome about saying like if you just visualize, you know being wealthy, then you'll get wealthy. It seemingly undercuts all of the effort that people put in in order to obtain their goals in favor of just sitting around and like thinking about it or wishing for it. Um, so yeah, I mean I think a lot of people, probably a lot of people who have gotten through years and years of school or um entrepreneurship or effort of some kind, are going to hear this and be like come on.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, and I think that, especially on social media, it's something that's that feels really good for us as a culture. Is the idea that we could get a bunch of stuff with very little effort right?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Like there's some magic that you just think it and you're going to get it. And you know there are a lot of influencers out there who are like you know, spend money like you're a millionaire and you will. You manifest oh, I'm going to be successful and wealthy. You might invest in certain things, or you might go for a promotion, or you might reject a confidence where people then invest in you, literally. But I mean that like those intermediate steps are just wiped out and you're given some affirmations on social media. That's just like I, I'm a millionaire, I I don't even know. Like I am, everyone loves me and I attract only high value everything and I'm like, yeah, that kind of primes you to be open to the next steps that would actually get you there.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean, I think that's an important aspect of this is, like you know, this shit's going to work insofar as it raises your ability and confidence, or your confidence in your ability to take steps and getting somewhere. But the risk is that you uh encourage like an obsession in people where they don't and they don't feel like they have to take any steps in reality and all they're doing is like sitting around fantasy, like with fantasizing, um, and it's kind of like well, we know that a lot of people sit around fantasizing, right, I was just watching this documentary on Eminem yesterday and his crazy fans. So it's like those people sit around fantasizing about Eminem all the time. But that does not. Eminem does not have 4 million girlfriends and boyfriends. So all those people sitting around.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I'm sorry. Where did you hear that people were sitting around fantasizing about eminem in this document?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

well, he's a celebrity. Of course they're doing this. All celebrities have people sitting around fantasizing about them, but eminem has like an insane fan base, like a really, really, really like dedicated fan base. Still, and also like, did you know the word stan, like I stan? That couple came from his song.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, I didn't know that. That was a thing that people say. Of course we know that song, but like people are and of all the celebrities you could be talking about you'd be talking about like taylor, swift or m&m is the one that you're like, see if you can fantasize.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I don't know, I know, I know, I know no, no, this is not.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

This is not a dig on eminem. This is just a question about why you brought up eminem as the example of someone who fantasizes about, who gets fantasized about a lot because I watched this documentary on him yesterday okay all right, look.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

And so he has all these rabid fans right who are sitting around being like, oh my god, like they, like they, they'll do anything for Eminem. They, they like, they have books where they put, like, everything about Eminem that's ever been created They'll. Like, they'll make scrapbooks. And they like think about him all the time and they write to him all the time and they talk to their friends about him all the time. They go to all his concerts. Right, like those people are sitting around obsessing about Eminem but that does not actually bring them in any closer proximity to Eminem other than you know, the proximity of buying tickets to his events.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

There you go, he's not their boyfriend.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

He's not their friend. Yeah, and I think you're bringing up a good point. Like one of the big problems with manifestation is like that it promotes just like fantasizing instead of actual, like goal setting. And sometimes it's like what's the difference when, when jim carrey wrote a 10 million dollar check for himself, right, like that is just as fanciful as like anyone else being like I'm gonna marry eminem, right, but I mean, but I mean, this is just an aside, it's not really an aside, but, like those influencers that I'm talking about, there's one.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I don't want to say the account, maybe I should, maybe I'll link the account on the show notes, but there's an account of this woman who's, just, like you can manifest being relaxed, rich. That's her whole thing, being relaxed rich. So she has this program where she copyrighted her own thing of hypno dance, where you dance to techno music that she makes. That has affirmations right, I am wealthy, I am relaxed, I am rich, right, and all the videos of her are just like dancing in her like Dubai apartment, right, like you know, listening to her tracks, which are pretty good. But like you know, and I was like huh, I looked into her a little bit. I mean, she's.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I'm sure she's a very nice person, right, trying to do trying to help people, okay, I'm sure she's a very nice person, right, trying to do trying to help people, okay. But when I looked into it, she is a trust fund baby. So her being, like she wrote things like I manifested this Dubai apartment. I'm like, yeah, daddy's, daddy's trust fund manifest. Like the thing is like there, the, the gaps between what's possible, right, like if you go from, if you just live in this fantasy with no sight into the steps towards it, then it just becomes, first of all, that's just kind of snake oil, right, that's just lying. Yeah, fraud.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean I saw I have an account that I follow because she had a digital product where she taught people how to be fin doms, which I thought was funny and also sort of tempting.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

But I can't because I have to be tell everyone what that is, because I didn't know until I saw those reals.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

It's where you make. Men give you money and I've traditionally been decent at this through any official or professional capacity, but you're you're a fin don hobbyist um, anyway.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

So she is now moving into like away from fin doming, I guess, and more about like how to. I think she's trying to coach people into making digital products and anyways, she did a whole like manifesting wealth thing by acting as if you're all she's like. I went and I did a $20,000 a month. I spent $20,000 in a month and after that I realized I could never be happy living the way I was again, and so I stepped it up and I, you know, started making it happen so that I would, and she's like now, $20,000, it's nothing Like that's not even enough of a month, you know, I just like I gave myself the life that I needed, that I wanted. I spent it all in that month.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

And then after that, I was like, okay, I can't go back, I'm just going to move forward, and like that's a risky little gambit, you know. I mean that is going to work on some people. Some people are going to be like, holy shit, I will never be satisfied with the life I was living before. I guess I should stop like working at McDonald's and start, you know, really applying for great jobs and getting education and moving up in the world. But a lot of people are going to be fucked. So I don't really know why you're advising this.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, yeah, it's cutting out the important piece, like having access to the steps there, and I agree that there's a delicate balance of being able to see that there are steps there. A lot of people who are just in the negative mindset won't just I'm probably me. Me obsessing over how I'm not good enough is probably literally blinding me to opportunities that I could be taking right and seeing. Those are important, but if they are not even there, I think it does. I think manifestation and the idea is biased against a lot of people who have actual restrictions right, like if you don't have a trust fund, you can't manifest this apartment in Dubai. Or if you like, the FinDom girl, I guess probably has ways that she can get 20,000 a month, but not everyone can say that and I I've heard that you know it's people who are like under systemic racism. You know like feel oppression or just don't have know so, so yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And the point about affirmations is really interesting too, because I remember when we started training in you know cognitive behavioral therapies and it's I was biased against the whole, like just think your way into happiness, but then trying to figure out like, okay, how can we change your thoughts? Like thoughts are important, beliefs are important, so how do we? How do we change it? Do we change it Whatever?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And we were learning I was learning how to do mindfulness-based cognitive therapy groups and how to lead mindfulness for people who are like severely depressed and anxious therapy groups and how to lead mindfulness for people who are like severely depressed and anxious. And I asked our supervisor. I said, why, why don't we do like compassion meditation? Because compassion meditation is supposed to be really good for for depression, right? Just like thinking about even gratitude and loving yourself and looking at the good things, like things that I would think are really helpful, cultivating this feeling of like gratitude and compassion for yourself.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

And my supervisor said you know, we tried, but it doesn't work with people who are severely depressed, who have really really low self-esteem and such entrenched, chronic beliefs that they're unlovable or hateful or broken or whatever, that when you just try to give them affirmations of I am lovable or I deserve love. That is so. That's basically saying you can manifest a apartment in Dubai with no trust fund Like for them. That felt so far away that they would actually get more depressed doing compassion meditation. So she was, like you know, at first just learning basic meditation, getting them treatment, getting them a little bit better, and then compassion meditation can come later. So I think what you're saying is right with when you have affirmations or fantasies that are so divorced from reality, it just backfires.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I mean, I guess in that case, maybe having a focus instead on defusing from the negative self-talk. So it's like, if you can, at the very least just calm down the negative self-talk and like, let in some reasonable affirmations like I'm okay, um, I'm not the worst person in the world, it's possible that someone could value me as a friend. Um, starting small could be helpful.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

But it's interesting, right, because manifestation actually asks you to do something much more unrealistic yeah, yeah, I think from the self-regulation literature it's like um, it does make it more a goal more likely to happen. Going from like passively fantasizing to making a goal actually happen is how, like athletes do visualization right. It was like, specifically, what's your goal, what does it look like? Visualizing what it looks like, but then also the steps to get there, like actually break it down into realistic steps that you can tackle, right? So even if it's like thinking right, I'm lovable, it might actually be feasible to be like, okay, I feel like I'm 100% unlovable, but maybe focusing on what we know is true, even what I know is true. I've had one person tell me that they love me. I have this one success that I could point to, right? So it's like just just seeing, just seeing for yourself, like objective facts that might eventually lead to the belief like people do love me, which is like a bigger, bigger belief.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, I think you know. I mean another like perk of manifestation is just, I think goals clarification can be helpful in manifestation. You're supposed to really kind of visualize like the emotion of if this has already happened, if I am, you know, if, let's say I'm single, like I'm going to visualize the emotion, feel the emotion of being loved by another person. I'm going to really like let that in Right. Then, theoretically, that can kind of increase your um focus on that goal and make it more likely to happen. Or, like I think a better one would be, I want to be a standup comedian. Like I'm going to really visualize what it's like to get up there and do a great job and make people laugh and then wow, like now I'm really going to want it.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Of course, the downside is, like I don't know, um, really increasing disappointment If things don't like turn out exactly as you imagine them. Um, I was thinking about that kind of when I was, like two seconds ago, talking about imagining what it would be like to be loved by somebody Sometimes what we imagine isn't reality Like when I would imagine marriage before. Um, I don't know, like when I, you know, when I was 25, let's say it was this like whirlwind of dopamine, like, oh my God, it's just going to feel like my soul is on fire every single day, like I would imagine that all the time.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

The problem is that kind of took me further away from like you know reality yeah yeah, yeah I mean I it is tough that there's no actual I I tried looking for this before this episode. I tried looking for um research and I I just can't believe that people haven't researched this more, considering how popular it is. Apparently, there's a survey of 1000 people about manifestation and one third of people believe in manifestation, so it's really popular and there's absolutely no scientific evidence for it. So I mean there's evidence for the things that we're talking about, which is like visualization, breaking things down into actual steps towards a concrete goal, and there's confirmation bias where it's like whatever you believe and think you're going to like actually see it in the world, which might reinforce that belief. But manifestation as like a vibrational attraction thing hasn't actually been studied or proven.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Um and I also. I got to find this and if I do, I'll share it in the show notes. But there was a hilarious um real, I saw. There was like a, a video of a girl spinning around and it said me manifesting my dream house, and then the front there's like her husband on on the computer, like and my husband making it happen.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Very gendered, but it was very funny okay, so my friend's method, and again, this is one person and it's all we got it's all I think.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

I think she's. This is the cabala is I don't know how to say exactly. We're talking about cabalas, I don't know. I was asking her how because, because, kibbe, you can I say this You're um entering IVF, okay, so you're doing IVF and you asked me to come up with a fertility um spell and or manifestation. So she says, if she's doing it, it requires entering meditative states and that's the biggest part. If she can enter a state where she's able to feel and call energy, that's 90% of it. Okay. So already, like you can sign up, sort of see this divide, like she's going with the real energy, like energy field thing, like you know, I mean, and she'll even use she's done meditative states, using crystals, right, where she can like like she feels, like she can pull the energy from the crystal. I don't, I don't, there's, there's not scientific, we don't have a crystal. Is that a problem?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I want us to do this. I want us to actually manifest something now and then and then later on, we'll tell everyone how it goes, right? I don't have a crystal. Is that a problem?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

no, why don't you do?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

my house. Why don't you do? Why don't you?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

take a. Do I have a crystal in my house? Why don't you take a deep breath? Do the pace breathing with the? Okay, see if you can create an energy field around yourself. All right, so we're doing a manifestation with my friend's method, okay, my friend's method, and that would be different, actually, than the method that was recommended in the literature, the scientific literature.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

But this one will be more fun, okay.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

so we are going to try to get you into like an energetic state. So we're going to do pace, breathing essentially, but what we're going to want you to do is breathe. So you're going to shut your eyes and breathe in um new, fresh energy into your head. To kind of imagine this energy going up your body and into your head and then you're going to release it, that old, stale energy, but you're going to hum as you do it. So Is it about what tone.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I do no.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Okay, and you're going to visualize this energy coming into your body, this fresh energy into your body, into your head.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I feel a little like loopy, I feel a little dizzy right now.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, okay, and then breathe out that old, stale energy Hold on Okay. Okay, just keep doing that until you sort of feel like you're in some sort of altered state.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Oh, now.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Okay, around yourself into the earth and feel kind of imagine that your energy from the top of your head is going into straight into the center of the earth and then see if you can pull that energy from the center of the earth back into yourself all the way up into your head okay I just kind of keep seeing if you can feel that energy connection with the earth going all the way down.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

you can visualize it right, like all the way down from your apartment through the apartments below into the ground I don't remember the different kinds of matter in the earth, but the magma and the silt and shit and go all the way down to the core.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Stop it All the way down to the core and pull that energy back up and into your head and then breathe out that stale energy again with a hum. Do that a couple more breaths, Okay. So in this charged energetic space, I want you to imagine what it would be like to already have the cool mind community that you desire. Imagine the emotion. What would that be like? What would it feel like to interact with your community? I?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

feel like for people to be helped by Cool of Mind and for their relationships to change, lay in that space for a while. Okay, for the sake of our audience, I'm gonna call it here. My friend would probably be like are you smoking crack? That that's not what I said to do, but I did my best, it feels nice.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I mean, I feel it's. It's interesting. Okay, can I debrief or am I supposed to do anything else? Okay, it was interesting actually picturing the goal, which is not like in my head. I'm always like I'm not good enough, I'm not doing enough, right, but then I pictured pretty similar things to what I've already done before, like so I know it's very much possible and within my capability. The interesting thing I mean maybe because I was, we were just talking about this in the community today, about people pleasing and over-functioning and being in the identity and role of someone who keeps giving and giving and giving, which all of us in the community and me like identify with like okay it's, it's big, it's helping a lot of people.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Like it's what I imagine will be awesome would be changing the way that we even address like caregivers and loved ones in mental health treatment, right, like actually seeing like their family members as important parts of mental health treatment. Like that's something that I always want and I want more people to feel less alone in mental health, in their depression or their loneliness, right. I want want more people to feel less alone in mental health, in their depression or their loneliness, right. I want to feel people, to feel like they they're connected.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

But something that came up was picturing how overwhelmed I would feel Because the bigger I grow things, the more successful I've become, the more like, oh my, I'm just going to have to keep giving and giving and giving until I'm drained. That was the thing that I was like oh my God, right now we're small enough that I can do whatever I want. I could take rest, I can have flexibility. But I imagine when things grow, this is one of the reasons why I stopped when I didn't want to go forward in academia, because I was like, if I have a full functioning lab, I can never like work remotely or travel or you know I would be beholden. That's what it would feel like is beholden Cause I I don't. I don't ever picture like people helping me. It's more about like me having more people that I need to save and help and carry yeah, I mean right, like what, when?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

like what? What exactly are we supposed to? Are we supposed to manifest the reality of what it would be if we got what we wanted?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

to manifest just the part that we wanted, but actually, I think that was really helpful because it just pictured, like what, there was some block and the block is that like the idea, like probably many things, but like the idea that I would just be drained or I wouldn't, I wouldn't like be nourished and fed back, I would would just have to keep giving, giving and I'd be stuck there, which is kind of how I felt with, you know, my mom Right, so it's just um, it's interesting.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

How might that change things, though? Does that make you less likely to want to pursue the goal, or does it give you insight into, maybe, why you've been like not wanting to pursue completely?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, me, me in particular. I think, yes, I think that I've stepped away and run away from like. Whenever I have gotten successful, I've been like oh no, and I switched to something else and I'm like I'm not successful because not successful like being undervalued or being, um, under look, overlooked.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Right, there's a certain freedom in that. There's a certain like my mom's not going to come for me and try to take everything that I have right, I won't be drained. I could go inward and preserve myself. I don't have to keep giving, giving, giving. So I guess I have to figure out how to like see that manifestation as something that can nourish me as well and I could still feel rested in those those bigger stages of growth whoa this was much more helpful than I thought.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

This is, I mean, in a surprising way, not necessarily um closing my eyes and dancing and hypno dancing my way into like.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Dubai apartment but you're really rescuing me from my half-assed attempt at cobbling together manifestation practices. I don't understand.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Well, another after this, not, not on the, not on this call we should actually do it for you I mean you're probably doing it for yourself, right, but it'll be fun to also what would you, will you or have you manifested, so we could check in on the results as an N of two study Manifestation.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

We want wealth.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

You want wealth. Is it this vague? Or is it like yeah, you're going?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

gonna get a job, so I don't really know how specific I'm supposed to get you know. I mean, it's like inside. Yeah, this is kind of like when we learn. I think this episode is supposed to be more about like this what does the science say about manifestation? Right, but for our next manifestation episode, that's more about like what is the actual spiritual practice of manifestation?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

and like exactly is it supposed to look? I don't you know. One thing she said is like you want to be. It seems like there's this thing around specificity. It's like you can be. You can be too specific. Where she was like I know she did a house manifestation was she's like I want a house and then she bought this really big house, but she actually hated the house. She was like I didn't actually manifest what I really wanted, which was more of like an emotional experience within the house, like how I would feel in the right house. So it wasn't shouldn't have necessarily manifested like a house, like that thing, but you know the way I really want to feel within the space that would make me truly happy or something like that.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So I kind of have to figure that out yeah, I mean, I understand that from our perspectives, values, right, like um, and I I did read that there is like positive affirmations that actually work is uh, talking about core values or think that you know is true, like my family loves me or I, I want to, I want to give, I want to give, I want to help people, right, you know, with loved ones struggling mental health, so, yeah, so there might be something about like really touching into the value of what you want, right, and picturing it, but maybe not getting so tightly hung up on. When I say wealth, it means like a Dubai apartment, right, right. When I say wealth, it means like, right, a Dubai apartment, right, right, um.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

One thing I did read is, um, that uh, journaling and scripting has a lot to do with manifestation. That's a big um, that's a big uh strategy where you write out a narrative of your life as if your desire has already happened. Like journaling, like writing a day in the life at your dream job, or a thank you letter, or a check for $10 million, um. Or writing your intentions or goals daily, or using. I've read that there's a specific format like a 55 by five writing an affirmation 55 times for five days, something like that, where there's like a specific repetitive, like ritual around writing. I mean we also know that like that works with gratitude journals or writing down things you're grateful for, or isn't the science of that?

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

just to get a sufficiently large, enough number that it becomes a real habit and like gets into your psyche but I guess it matters what you're journaling.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

If you're journaling like I am grateful for my son, I'm grateful for my health, or whatever, versus like I'm a millionaire, you know like things that are totally out of your realm of possibility, or like a fantasy right like, or something that's so unrealistic I don't know, I'm just I just mean there's.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

No, I don't think there's anything magical about number 55.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Oh yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, just like something where there's other techniques, so it's like three, six, nine, like three in the morning, six in the afternoon and nine at night or something.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

But um uh but yeah, just something gratitude, gratitude practice. I mean I don't think of that as manifestation, but it's something that gets looped in here where I mean I. I just feel like that is again more to the confirmation bias. If you start recognizing all the things you're grateful for, I mean, you're just gonna be a cooler person to be around and like so much of what we obtain in life are from other people, if you can be a really cool person to be around, then the chances that you're like abundant multiply a lot. Yeah, my former friend who like didn't get any of the acting jobs, it's like it's kind of as you like suck as a person, like people don't want to work with you, you know, if you've got like a cloud of negativity around you, yeah, I think also, it's like how you treat yourself.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I mean, like these kind of core beliefs or confirmation biases apply to yourself, but they tend to, without us realizing it, they apply to other people, right? So if I'm grateful for things in myself and my life, I'm probably going to be more grateful to you and to the other people I love, and that feels good. If I'm like negative about myself, I'm then going to be negative about everything I see outside, and that's just. You know, then you're like I don't want someone to like look at me defensively or critically all the time, right, yeah, that's it. What do you, what? What are you? Okay, you're manifesting wealth. So when we do, when we're, when we do the next season, so we're going to do like one more episode, right, the wrap up, and then we're going to do next season, and the next season we'll talk about the results of our manifestation right.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

No.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

No, no, no. I'm just trying to think about how much clarification I need to bring to the wealth thing. It'll probably be something like I wish for money to never be, or to stop being, a source of stress, or to stop, you know, to feel secure, like to feel some sort of security, something like that.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Feeling financially secure.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Yeah, with a swimming pool in my backyard, something like that Feeling financially secure?

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, with a swimming pool in my back here. So get some specifics. But also like the what. What does it feel like to to be financially secure? What are you going to do differently? What is? What is the emotion? Okay, yeah, all right, okay, well, this is baseline measure, measurement and then we will see in the future what happens. Right, all right, little helpers.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

Well, we will at least future what happens right. All right, little helpers, well we will, at least I'm going to manifest that we see you next week and, um, I am also going to manifest that we have a hundred thousand million positive five-star reviews on apple podcasts and spotify and, um, hopefully, my manifesting that means that you guys actually do it. So, please, please, rate us highly and we'll see you next week.

Dr. Jacqueline Trumbull:

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