A Little Help For Our Friends

Interview with "Rosemead" director Eric Lin: Turning an Haunting True Story into a Conversation about Stigma

• Dr. Kibby McMahon • Season 6 • Episode 171

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How do you turn a haunting true story about family mental illness into a national conversation about stigma? This is the third and final episode of the series diving into the movie "Rosemead," a moving true story about how a Chinese immigrant mother (played by Lucy Liu) faces schizophrenia, stigma, and the fear of becoming a burden. In this episode, director Eric Lin shares how he was able to create such a honest, complex portrait of mental illness in a marginalized family.

Eric opens up about seeing his own family dynamics reflected in the script: the pressure to appear strong, the instinct to hide hard truths, and the painful isolation that grows when a community doesn’t have the language or resources to help. We go behind the camera to explore how the team built an honest, human portrayal of psychosis. Eric drew from first-person accounts and documentaries to shape psychotic episodes that feel present yet accessible. That craft choice keeps Joe grounded in our empathy rather than lost in stereotype. We also confront the delicate thread tying public fear of mass shootings to mental illness, and why the film refuses sensational shortcuts while acknowledging a parent’s very real terror.

The finale gets the care it deserves: Lucy Liu’s performance arrives in a single, shattering take for the devastating ending. The result is not shock for its own sake, but a moment that honors love, loss, and the cost of silence. 

If you care about mental health, immigrant family dynamics, or the ethics of portraying schizophrenia on screen, you’ll find a lot to resonate with. Go see "Rosemead" in theaters so you don't miss being part of the conversation.

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Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Hi guys, welcome to A Little Help for Our Friends, a podcast for people with loved ones struggling with mental health. Hey little helpers, it's Dr. Kibbe here. Before we dive into this episode, I wanted to tell you how I could help you navigate the mental health or addiction struggles of the people you love. Coolamine is the online coaching platform and community that I built to support you in the moment when you need it the most, like having hard conversations, asserting your needs, or setting boundaries. Even if you're just curious and want to chat about it, book a free call with me by going to the link in the show notes or going to coolamine.com, K-U-L-A-M-I-N-D.com, and click get started. Thank you and enjoy the show. Hello, little helpers. So this episode is a conversation with Eric Lin, who directed the movie Rosemead. And this is the third and last episode in what turned out to be a series of conversations with the cast and crew of Rosemead. Um last episode we had Lauren Shao, who's the star, and a couple weeks ago we had Anti De Benedetto, another actor in it. And I am so glad we had such an in-depth exploration of this movie that honestly, honestly, I've never seen anything like it before. I've never seen a movie that tackled mental health like it before, that took on a really difficult and brave story. And actually, let me do it justice by reading the official description of the movie. So Rosemead is inspired by the herring true story. Lucy Liu transforms in a riveting, career-defining performance as an ailing woman who takes drastic measures to protect her troubled teenage son, played by Lauren Shaw. And as his dark obsessions grow and time runs out, she is forced to make impossible choices of how far will she go and what is she willing to sacrifice for set against the simmering tensions of a Chinese American community? Rosemead is a gripping portrait of a family pushed to the edge. Okay. Well, that was a pretty accurate description. And I sat down with Eric to talk about how he was able to create such an authentic depiction of schizophrenia. I mean, it was so realistic and yet so relatable, which uh is a really hard balance to strike, and he did it. And I I just found it fascinating to talk to him about how it's a really unique story, right? A Chinese immigrant mother and a son with schizophrenia. I mean, you would think that this is super rare, no one could relate, but he told the story in a way where a lot of people can end up relating to it. Right? Like people, at least in the screening that I was in, people related to how hard it is for parents to deal with kids with severe mental illness and other people related to feeling the cost of cultural stigma around mental health. And so I was just really struck by how thoughtfully Eric brought this story to life and is sparking a really important conversation across the country. So I hope you enjoyed this episode and go see Rosemead out in theaters January 9th. Welcome back, little helpers. We have a special guest today. It's Eric Lynn, who's the director of the movie that I've been raving about, um, Rosemead. Um I I'm just so Eric, thank you so much for coming. I've been dying to talk to you. We had Auntie and Lawrence, um the the actors of the of the movie on um previous episodes, and they raved about you. So I was like, I gotta talk to him. I gotta have them on the podcast. So thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Tell us a little bit about. I mean, I I love hearing the different descriptions of Rosemead. So tell me about how you thought of this movie, how would you describe it? And yeah, just just tell tell us about the movie.

SPEAKER_02:

Sure. Lucy Liu plays uh a terminally ill woman who uncovers her son's growing obsession with mass violence. And it is sort of about a mother's love pushed to its edge, uh pushed to its limits as she sort of grapples with what that, you know, uh what it means.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, and I I didn't even know this, but this is is this your feature debut as a director, or that's what Lawrence was saying.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it is. My first feature. Um, I've shot a lot of features as a cinematographer, but it's my first feature directing, yeah. So um, you know, I could have chosen easier an easier story, but um, but you know, to be honest, you know, it was a a story that was very personal to me and you know, um something that I felt so deeply connected with, and that's what really drew me to want to direct it. And yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

That's amazing. I I didn't know that you did an amazing job.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, thank you.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

So congratulations on like kind of a a banger of a of a debut. So um so yeah, this this podcast and our audience is it this is Rosemead is such an important movie for especially our community because um we talk about how mental illness affects the family and our loved ones, and we really like to talk about how mental illness is we we I I think our healthcare system talks about it like it's one person who's sick, but we know that it affects the community, affects everyone around them. Right. So that this movie shows that perfectly how how does a family navigate illnesses of all types. What about this? And with your QA, you were it sounded like it really was like a a labor of love, like this was a very important story to you. So tell me a little bit about when you say that this is something that called to you, that this was like you know, something that that that mattered to you. Why why was this story?

SPEAKER_02:

You know, I I've have uh you know friends and families who've struggled with their mental health, you know, and I've seen how the sort of um, you know, I when I read the script and the article, you know, I could really see how like the the shame and the isolation that came from that shame, you know, operated. And and I could understand why, you know, Irene made the decision she did, you know, and it was so uh heartbreaking to me. You know, I saw my own family in that story, you know, I there's these these elements of like, you know, um the inclination or the desire to spare the people you love, you know, pain, and so you lie to them or you, you know, you you don't tell them the whole truth. Um, you know, these are dynamics I saw in my own family. You know, my I grew up in uh Southern California in the suburbs, but my parents are immigrants um from Taiwan. And and so I, you know, I raised saw sort of like the roots of their behavior, and I could understand like Irene's narrative logic and and emotional place that she felt like she had to, I mean that she had to be at, you know, to feel like she had to do what she did. Um and it was so heartbreaking to me because of that, you know, the isolation she had, you know, um uh immigrant families especially, you know, lacking the support and the language to kind of find help or find resources. Um, you know, and and and you know, and also similarly Joe's story where he, you know, he's trying to prove to his mom that he's strong enough to to be go back to school, you know, even though his symptoms are getting more extreme or are you know um you know he wants to show that he's uh he can be strong and make her proud. And and so me for me, the like those, you know, that those emotions being sort of at the root of the story um just made it all the more heartbreaking to me. And I felt like it was an urgent story, you know, that needed to be told. Like we've never seen anything like this on screen before. The story about, you know, an immigrant family dealing with uh, you know, someone who has mental illness and and what it does to a family, and especially, you know, this their their story is just so tragic, and and uh it just you know makes more extreme kind of the circumstances and and uh the the all the sort of isolation and and helplessness that they feel and the fear that you know all that gets augmented through that lens. And so it was something that I felt like had to be told, and you know, but in the end it took us you know seven years to tell it.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

That's crazy. So, how did the story come across your like did did did you find the script seven years ago? How what was the process of going from finding it to making it?

SPEAKER_02:

So, um Minette Louis. Let me let me start further back. Uh we there was uh Theo James and Andrew Corkin were two of our producers who had optioned the article. They had read the LA Times article by Frank Xiong, and it stayed with them. You know, they're not Asian American, but they they read this story and it sort of haunted them. And so they they were trying to figure out like, is it a documentary, is it a feature, but it was a story they wanted to tell. And so they ended up um pairing up with or working with uh Manette Louis, a producer that I know. And Manette's uh been in the indie world a long time. She's a great producer, she's done a lot of incredible films that um that deal with you know difficult topics, and um she brought on Marilyn Fu, who adapted the article into the screenplay. And so once they sort of had the screenplay in shape, they started looking for directors. And I had worked with Minette on several features as a cinematographer. We had worked together a bunch and we talked about working on projects, and um and again, I wasn't I wasn't looking, uh I wasn't looking to direct, you know, but um luckily Minette thought of me and I read the script and she just said, you know, is this something you might be interested in, you know? And there's lot they were talking to a lot of directors who were all sort of pitching on the project. Um, and you know, again, I just felt like I connected to the story so deeply that I you know I just told them my perspective and and my history. And you know, I grew up in Southern California. Uh we went to Monterey Park and Rosemead and Alhambra like every weekend. Um, you know, my parents would drag us there for shopping and restaurants and food. And and um so I had a like a sense memory of that world. Um, so even though I live in New York now, you know, I I grew up in that in that environment. So um luckily they took a leap of faith on me and they, you know, they said yes to me directing.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

You're you're saying that the article was haunting. That that's definitely something that you were able to create with a movie because it definitely haunted me. I mean, my husband and I didn't even know what it was really about.

unknown:

Okay.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

My husband thought it was like it was like about like immigration and like the struggles of you know, like a a mother who's like first generation, right? Like there was something about that, but then we just like were slack jawed for the last like few minutes of it, and we think about it every once in a while. So it really, it really is a it is a haunting story because there's no there's no clear right or wrong, there's no clear villain, right? There's not there, it doesn't you don't come out being like, ah, good guys won and the bad guys, it's just sort of like this is life and this is a tragedy and it was oh wow, so I just can go on and on. Tell us a little bit about when you were talking about mental illness or illness in families and like talk to not talk about it, kind of hide it. How I mean, I'm my my mom is from Hong Kong, so I have a similar um a similar experience, but how do you understand how maybe Asian immigrants, Chinese immigrants, or any different groups will kind of treat mental illness and illness and help and other kinds of illnesses?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I mean, I think it yeah, it's you know, it's definitely not just mental illness. Um, you know, for instance, like uh yeah, I grew up in Thousand Oaks, uh just like suburb of LA, and there weren't very many Taiwanese families there. So, you know, whenever something happened, like my brother got in trouble a lot, you know, it'd be like uh everybody's watching you, right? So everything you do is reflecting on our family, you know. And so there's this very heightened awareness of, you know, projecting uh a certain facade, you know, of not showing vulnerability or weakness or you know, doing anything to bring shame. Um, and you know, I feel like that, you know, illness, um, you know, especially is something like mental illness, which they uh, you know, I don't know if you know my parents necessarily had the vocabulary to think about it until, you know, my you know, our generation, their kids sort of like started to bring it up to them, you know. And and so I think their instinct is that is to hide it or to protect, you know, to close it off. And you know, so much of like the tension in the film is about Irene trying to prevent that knowledge of Joe's condition cut getting out, right? Like she's trying to close it off, she's trying to prevent her friends from knowing it, preventing, you know, the school from uh sharing things with the law enforcement, and uh, you know, there's all these things that she's trying to prevent from happening for fear of it sort of um tainting him or staining him, you know, and I think that's part of that attitude of uh not understanding it and and fearing it, and and and you know, um, you know, but she is someone who, you know, to her credit, like she is someone who did seek help, you know, for him, right? She took him to, you know, it was through sort of uh from my understanding in the um actual case, it was through like the school's recommendations, like, oh, you should seek some sort of help for him. Um, and she did that, but I think her treatment, her idea of it still is that like it was like a cold or something, right? It's like if I do this, um, then I'll go away, right? If he's taking this medicine, then then he'll get better and then he'll be back to the way he was, you know. And this expectation that he could be that, you know, she talks about him continuing on to college and all these things, her, she still has these high hopes about him that don't include um, you know, this thing, this massive thing that's in his life now. And, you know, I think like uh sort of that lack of a understanding and that um the fear of it, you know, is sort of what drives that lack of understanding.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

You're as you were talking, I just remember it's interesting you're saying that that even in where you grew up, it was like, oh, don't don't um keep keep it all in, like don't don't act out because everyone will see. Because I you just popped up a memory where that would be the case all the time when we were in Hong Kong, where we're on the streets and you know, I'm like, oh, this is a big city, whatever. And they're like, be careful, you know, uh don't it things can look can look badly on our family if we don't behave. And I being from New York, I was like, what? You know, we're an individual. But it is it is interesting how illness is talked about as something that you keep in the family and keep quiet. What would be the risk of people finding out? Like what if let's say in Rosemade that little Chinese community, the the friends that they had did find out what he had, what what would happen to him? Like what would be the risk?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, I think um well unfortunately, I think it's sort of like some of their own bi her, you know, their own biases reflected back on them, you know, like um there's that little scene in the the party where the moms are sort of gossiping about him and and talking about how she saw him go into the treatment center, he's taking if he's taking if they're giving him drugs and it's damaging his brains, you know, and and I think it's this um this fear of those kinds of stories, you know, getting out and and and um, you know, again, it's like uh a fear of being vulnerable, it's a fear of um and also, I mean, not just fear to though too, because I think it's uh it's like a fear of burdening, well, maybe that is a fear. It's like a fear of burdening other people, right? It's like if they actually share it, you know, it's same similar thing. It's like if anyone has you asks you how you're doing and you had like a really bad day, and then you start to unload on them, you know, you know, I think it's all the more heightened, especially in in Asian American communities, where, you know, if you share these things, then people don't know what to do with it. And and you know, in some cases they react, you know, very badly and like ostra they'll start to ostracize her or uh gossip about them, or you know, uh, I could imagine scenes where they wouldn't want their kids to hang out with Joe, you know, and start to close off, you know. Um, you know, I've seen it happen with my my friends' family too. It's like when they're when their child was struggling with mental health, um, they stopped socializing, right? Because when families get together, all they do is talk about their kids and they just stop, you know, their entire like social circle basically, they shut themselves off from it. That's that's the tragedy, right? It's like there might have been people who would have understood, you know, Kylie is uh is open, even though sh her ideas about it are are more rooted in like Eastern medicine, but you know, she still wants to be there to help in in whatever way she can. But again, you know, Irene is like trying not to burden her, right? Because it's so massive. You know, it's like how do you like you know, how do you ask someone, how do you invite someone into all that, you know, if they're not your direct family. Um and and I think that's that's the thing that was so um heartbreaking is you know, I I read this book, uh Zigzag Boy by Tanya Frank, which uh she talks about her son who has schizophrenia and like how she sort of like how she grappled with how to take care of him. And you know, that was really eye-opening. Uh reading that book in prep is just how like how much you have to surround this person with help, right? It's like what it takes to really um take care of a person like that who, you know, uh especially if they're young, you know, their brain chemistry is changing, uh, you know, medication might need to be adjusted constantly, um their their conditions going through different, you know, you know, mutations, like uh, you know, so they need a lot of uh monitoring and support. And and especially in that book, uh it's a single she's a single parent. So it it was really um, you know, eye-opening to me, like the amount of help that they needed, right? And the fear of asking for it is what's you know prevented or you know, enabled the tragedy to happen. Um, and you know, I think uh that's that for me is yeah, just like one of the most tragic parts of it is like that inability to ask for help and inability to talk about it and not having that vocabulary to reach out and and and being able to find that support.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah. Bring in a really interesting point that I'm now I'm like reviewing the whole movie and seeing elements of it where it's I think we a lot of people talk about stigma, like I'm you know, as we're saying, I'm afraid of people thinking badly of us and you know, thinking it's our fault or whatever. But there's also this very Chinese and maybe just Asian in general, this the communal, a collective collectivist approach of like I just want to shine good things on the people around me and I don't want to be a burden. That burden is a like the fear of being a burden is interesting because it's also on um the Mother Irene's level, or she was struggling with cancer. She didn't like was like taking herself to the treatments by herself and just kind of being this stereotypical like tough Chinese woman. It's like I'll take care of everything myself.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. And um, yeah, I mean it's like projecting that strength and like, you know, yeah, not asking, not uh not, you know, not asking for help and somehow um, you know, that's so ingrained and and it feels like it's so ingrained in the culture. And and it's interesting though, as we've been showing the film, people have been coming up like with from all different kinds of backgrounds and talking about how there's elements of the dynamics they see in the story that apply to their culture or their families or their lives. And that's you know, we made this film to be very hyper specific about you know Chinese immigrants. family in Southern California, but um it it was incredible to see that people from all sorts of or sort sorts of backgrounds, you know, ethnicities and cultures, um, take similar, you know, you know, could find similar things to latch onto in their own their own families and how they treat yeah everything illness, mental illness, or shame.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

What have you heard?

SPEAKER_02:

What if people a similar, I mean it's very similar, but you know, I think the dynamic is just in different ways. But it was about how people are afraid to talk about it, afraid to share, like it's things they keep indoor, you know, inside within the family. And I think it just, you know, uh the way the behavior kind of comes out or manifests is different in each culture, you know, depending on sort of like uh their lens. But um but it was interesting that they they also felt it. You know, they it wasn't just like oh wow that's like you know an Asian American thing. That's wild. No, it's like oh we have that thing in African Americ American cultures too or you know in Latino cultures but we do it you know they they might the it might uh manifest in a different way but it is you know at the root of it. I was struck by what Lawrence was saying that he he was he was so complimentary of you saying that you really took care of like you really created a great atmosphere and great working environment and really um you did a lot of research and really like thoughtfully portrayed schizophrenia specifically what what was your process of like learning about schizophrenia and how to direct somebody to show that yeah I mean um you know it being Lawrence's first feature and and a you know a pretty pretty challenging role when we cast him that was one of my concerns was like can he can he as an actor you know do this thing but you know be intact as a human because we were gonna put him through a lot you know and and he'd have to go generate all these emotions and all these uh all this torment you know and um it was a concern of ours so so we were always you know me and Lucy were always sort of checking on him and making sure that he was okay and and that that um you know he had time after these scenes to to decompress and and and talk about um how he was um because it was you know I I I've done films with um actors who had as a cinematographer I've done films where they've had to go through pretty extreme places and and some new actors they you know they generate all these things and if they maybe don't have the tools they don't know where to put it you know after you know after a scene you do a massive scene and you just like where do I put all these things that are generated inside for the camera but now the scene's over what do I do with all this stuff um so that was something we were always like cognizant of when we were you know shooting is like even though we were like super fast schedule like I had to make you know for me I had to make sure that Lawrence as he was going through like psychotic episodes or or you know these scenes with extreme fear that he you know afterwards he had a place to put it or you know even with just like joking or you know just something to to check in on him that it wasn't just like all right we gotta move on to the next setup. But you know we yeah we did a lot of research in terms of what schizophrenia could be like you know what what's been amazing to me is that on YouTube there's a lot of people with schizophrenia um filming their psychotic episodes um to sort of demystify the process or you know what what it is and um some more sort of extreme um people with more extreme cases of schizophrenia they have like motion detectors so if they go into a psychotic episode it triggers and then they'll share that footage but some people uh which is sort of more on the level that we we thought Joe would be at are they sort of are can feel like an episode coming on and they'll sort of start to describe it. They're like oh I you know I'm I'm sensing someone in that corner or I'm I'm starting to hear uh you know this this auditory hallucination or this and this voice is now coming in uh you know so they're they're struggling to stay present which was like a real lesson for us you know it's like uh because we you know I think it was important for us that the audience root for Joe you know if if if he just had like an extreme case of schizophrenia and anytime he had an episode he was just gone to the world then the audience wouldn't have anything to hold on to and so when we discovered that there were people who um who had you know I'm sure it's I mean it's just a spectrum but um we wanted to make sure that Joe was sort of in this the part of portion of the spectrum where he was struggling to stay present. You know and and you know he feels the torment and he, you know, there's all these things from his past that are coming up but he's trying to stay present he's trying to project and trying to be strong and if we see that effort and then we knew that like the audience would really could feel that too but you know we wanted to make those uh psychotic episodes as sort of like legible and tangible but emotionally rooted as possible you know for for Joe or for Lawrence as an actor um but also yeah for the audience because I think they would you they would you know they can they can see his terror and his torment um if we we make it understandable through you know Lawrence's performance. So you know we watched uh there's some BBC documentary I think it was called Don't Call Me Crazy um where it was amazing because they they followed these kids that were in uh a psych ward in in Britain I can't remember what city um but they allowed a film crew there and so you know there's these kids some of them had schizophrenia some of them have other conditions um but there were several cases of people with schizophrenia who would you know describe their either psychosis and what they saw when they had psychotic episodes what they felt and you know what was also clear was sort of that even though they would hear things like voices or um you know competing voices or many conversations in their mind um what they talked about too was that there would be like a feeling of doom right or fear or or um you know paranoia or something there was like an emotion attached to it that wasn't just like the content of the words right and so for us it was like how do you make that how do you yeah how do you get give that feeling of doom when he's like walking down the hallway at school or something like that. You know and so we used a lot of audio sound design to give that sense of like uh yes he's hearing things but it's not just the content of the words that's activating him there's an emotional feeling underneath it you know like um you know fear or danger or or uh again doom so you know one thing that me and Lawrence did was uh in in in prep we created well like one one of the things like for the psychotic episodes is I wanted it to be as um I mean it feels weird to say but as authentic as possible or like as real as possible for Lawrence so he could act against it right it was like it it was it's tricky to tell an actor like okay pretend you hear you know one person saying something over there that person saying something over there that person saying something different over there and you're trying to like stay in the middle of three conversations. So what we ended up doing was um we in prep we created these audio tracks of different different kinds of you know one of them might have been like experimental jazz one of them was like shouting one of them was like whispering and we were layered we would make multiple layers of these like sounds and odd and and conversations and then um during certain scenes with when he had psychotic episodes we'd put an earwig in his ear and so we'd play these these tracks while he's performing you know it'd be very low volume because it'd be on his ear so you couldn't hear it in the mic that's recording kind of what's happening in the scene. But uh we could but what it allowed and it's not anything that we ended up using in the final film but what it allowed was like Lawrence to react to uh you know some sort of uh sensory you know uh some sort of uh actual sound or some sort of actual feeling that he could he could you know react against and and and work with rather than just like being in a silent room and saying like oh you feel you know imagine this person like feels like they're over in that corner or that shadows moving uh you know these are things that are very difficult I feel like for an actor to to you know hold on to um so giving him something really real to react against I think helped uh you know for us to really make that like portrayal schizophrenia as as sort of real as possible that is so cool I didn't know that that's because I I watching it I was struck by how good of an actor it would like how great though yeah even that's very good.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Really nailed and it's interesting that you're explaining it that way it definitely does feel like you can still emotionally connect and relate to him because I think when people think of schizophrenia as just like oh the explosion of like crazy right or you know someone on the street someone who's like dehumanized but yeah I think it's like looking confused and scared. Yeah and uh and also not also explosive but sometimes just like a top down or just you know really focusated on things. How did you go about the his fascination with mass shootings? I know that it was there weren't quite did he have hallucinations about that but it seems that he was like fixated on learning about it. There was a lot of the mass shootings happening at that time and we have this whole conversation about mass shootings and it being instigated by people who are mentally ill so that makes people scared like how did you have to tackle the mass shootings piece?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah it was a it was a tricky line to to you know walk while we were while we were writing the script but also while we were making the film and and editing is sort of like we had to you know make make palpable her fear that he might be dangerous because of her own misunderstanding. You know we have the we have the the um therapist saying how most people's schizophrenia are not violent and you know if he hasn't exhibited any worrisome behavior you know shouldn't be you know there's no reason to worry yet. But uh but you know her her own mind yeah again because uh yeah at the time that this case happened it was 2015 it was like the rise of mass shootings in America you know I think there was like three or four hundred that year and it only has grown since um and so you know it is one of those things that she grasped onto because it's in the public conversation at the time too you know right her fear of what's happening and fear of what he might become and when she starts to see um you know evidence of it on his phone uh that's where her you know that's where her mind goes and she doesn't hear you know what the therapist's saying um that that you know in most cases people with schizophrenia are not violent. And but yeah you know in the film we had to do that thing where we had to show her perspective and her fear and make that real because that's that's the way you sort of understand why she thinks he might be in danger or he might you know he might do something that might get him yeah locked up later you know even if it's not like mastering but it's some sort of violence um because of her own misunderstanding of what mental illness is um and and you know again it's sort of that thing where uh her her fear of it her fear of it getting out and her fear of like um you know and even the sh the shame and the isolation it sort of breeds prevents her from gaining that knowledge about what you know schizophrenia actually is or you know how people can live with schizophrenia and how what that might look like. You know I think so much of the again the tragedy of the film is of the story is that she didn't have a she had no way of sort of imagining what a happy and healthy life would be like for him if she wasn't around you know that he could live with this condition or that you know um you know her you know her fear of of who would take care of him and all that sort of thing took over and in a fear of what he might become because she also didn't understand the illness you know um but it it is a tricky thing where we we wanted to make sure that um there was no indication that he you know he himself was plotting or planning any sort of you know mass violence but he was very fascinated with it and that's you know that absolutely was in the the article about all the evidence of um him his his fascination with um you know the various smash shooters um so it was it was absolutely part of part of like the fear of um what he might become but again I think at the root of that is like her just misunderstanding of what um schizophrenia is and like that that you know she let she just has this leap of logic that he could become something like that.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

I mean even even me as a psychologist if I saw my son fixated on mass shootings and you know I would be concerned right like yeah um what yeah absolutely what did it say in the article about what the fascination like how did it manifest?

SPEAKER_02:

Was it like I I remember in the movie he was like paying attention on the radio a TV is that what the article said that he was uh I think in the article it was uh similarly I think it was websites or printouts or article like he he had saved clippings I think of some of the mass shooters like Dylan Roof. Um I can't remember if there's actual physical evidence or they they talked about how he was fascinated with it. Yeah Dylan Roof came up um so uh it escapes me right now I can't re I can't remember exactly what it was but it was um you know made clear that he yeah yeah he was following it yeah wow um going back to what we were talking about with with how you directed Lawrence um I'm curious how how it was sorry it was just like I'm having thoughts in the back of my mind about how interesting it is to that my job is usually to like navigating people through their emotions with you know coming back to a regulated place and you have to get them dysregulated and then have to you know it's like there's a lot of emotion regulation and management in your job and what what does it look like when they can or cannot handle it and you were saying have some people some actors have the tools to like deal with those emotions.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

What have you seen go right or wrong in that in that process um it was interesting.

SPEAKER_02:

I never saw I guess I never saw anything go wrong but I I did do a film and and uh the actress afterwards talked about how when she left set um it was that thing she didn't know what to do you know she played a uh person battling addiction and and you know she would have these uh you know intense fights with uh her her you know her husband on on screen and then and then you know call cut and then she goes you know in the car to go home but she would just say how like when she left the set like she still had that energy around her and she didn't know how how not you know how not to be like worked up and you know people she interacted with she would just be still in that emotional space and and and you know it took her a while to figure out how to come down from that whenever she had um these really intense days and you know I think uh there you know there's very experienced actors who can who can just turn it on and then put it away or find a way to you know degenerate it and then and then you know I guess store it away like for later or or um you know deal with it somehow and and so you know I yeah I've I've never witnessed anything actually happening but um that story did stick with me because she just talked about how she would leave set and just be you know if she had this uh fight scene she would just be angry you know at everybody around her you know like she it just generated and and she didn't know how not to be in that space you know until she got some sort of catharsis or something. And and so yeah it was uh you know it's definitely um you know yeah it was definitely something I was fearful of when we hired uh Lawrence because uh and we talked about that we had like very you know conversations with him like this is gonna be you know intense because we're gonna you know like a psych psychotic episode we're gonna do like five takes at one angle change the angle maybe do another five takes that angle so you know you're gonna be in that space for hours right it's not just like um a one time thing or you know even like a a few minutes a day it's like you're gonna have to generate it and be back in it and and you know there's times where we had to build up to it you know maybe it wasn't extreme enough you know like the first take and you know that's part of the the filmmaking and part of the acting of it is like you're you know um you we rehearse it and you try it out and if it's not quite there and then we we just talk about where it needs to be and how to get there. And you know with Florence it was great because we were always talking about um yeah I mean there was so much emotional backstory that you know uh anchored sort of like his his fear and his torment you know um I think so much of what uh you know drives uh Joe's terror in the film is that things are being taken away from him right his father was taken away from him he starts to see that the store you know he grew up with the you know she might sell it and it might be taken away from him finds out his mom is sick and so she might be taken away from him. So is this thing about protection, right? And is this thing about wanting to protect the family and hold on to things they have and because it's such a you know it's such a primal sort of thing you know right especially for a small boy to see these things taken away and to react against that that we could always sort of return to that when we're talking about what you know this scene was in the in the copy store when he has a psychotic episode there or at school where he thinks he hears my hears his mom. And so even if that's you know not explicit for the audience for us it's how we sort of like talked about it with you know me and Lauren sort of talked about it so that we could make it very emotionally grounded what he was going through.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

That's interesting. Oh gosh how how do you even I'm just picturing having to do multiple takes and being keeping that person in there for several hours do you do have to besides for the auditory um um cues that you did do you have to like ramp them up and keep them do you just go okay be be scared of it or like how do you get how do you I'm just imagining like having to work with the emotional waves of a person.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah yeah and it's um you know a lot of it is sort of like um sketching out the circumstances before we start the scene like you know when he's in the copy store sort of you know towards the end um the you know it sort of builds up in the scene before but then once we are in the copy store it's sort of like full blown. Yeah and so we have to you know before we roll cameras and while we're rehearsing or while they're setting up the camera me and him are talking about where he was before that you know and trying to get back to that. And uh or you know it's what's actually happening is we shot the copy store before we shot the scene in the house where he goes through the thing before the copy store. So anyways we you know of course it's filmmaking so we're doing things backwards. So we have to talk about you know we have to paint uh basically an image and you know for me it's it's all about sort of painting that image with for him of where he's coming from and you know what has to arrive so that when he enters the scene he's already at like you know whatever 10 or 9 you know on the dial. Um and and what does he have to do off screen you know like we we might go through sort of an exercise before he comes even you know before we even roll the camera or like we're ready with the camera you know me and him might go Through something you know to build him up to that point and then roll the camera, you know, and then he'll he'll walk out. And like either we're going through like the previous scenes, or we'll we'll read through the previous scenes, or he'll act out the previous scenes, you know, even though we're not rolling the camera on that scene, and then once he enters, you know, the copy store, then we'll start that part of the scene. But it's like, yeah, ramping them up. Whatever you know, my job as a director was to find out anything I could do to get him to that space of where he needed to be when we shot it, you know, even though like we wouldn't shoot the preceding scene for like another week, you know, or something like that, you know. So it was, you know, and it's also like since we don't know what that scene was, it's an imagination of like what you know we think he'll be at um before that scene. So yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

What is it like for you? I mean, that to have to emotionally get someone somewhere, and then also have to probably have like a whole you know, eyes on your whole team of production behind you and that like the the the like how did how what was that like for you? Would you just lock in or would you be uh I would I would lock in.

SPEAKER_02:

It's um huh. Well, I guess I guess I would say that my experience as a cinematographer helped in that case because I'm used to uh trying to be creative under pressure. Uh because you know, part of part of a cinematographer's job is the schedule. So I'm I'm like super aware of like um what it means when we take too long. Um, but also how to stay, you know, I've had that practice. Like I've worked with a lot of first-time directors, and I think that's that's something that can be a challenge is if you're not used to like the machinery of filmmaking standing around watching you as you're trying to get this thing. Um, but you know, uh, you know, as a director, it is very easy on set to lock into the thing you need, and maybe, you know, much to the producers and assistant directors uh chagrin, um because you you know, you see the thing that you need, and um and you're trying to figure out ways to make it efficient. So like when again, uh yeah, when we're setting up, you know, that usually like after we block a scene, um, there's sort of a long setup, and I'm using that time to rehearse with the actor. And like me and Lawrence are talking about me and Lawrence are are going through where we think everything is, and and you know, I was lucky to have like rehearsal time with Lawrence, and I broke the script down myself, sort of like I think I broke it in like five levels of where he where I thought he would be in terms of his psychosis, you know, and how where it gets worse. So because I t I knew we would be shooting out of order, so just to keep it straight in my mind, you know, I had to know with the within the story that he's sort of here, you know, because on the call sheet it shows up as like scene, you know, scene number 75. But I needed to know, you know, exactly sort of where in the the the trajectory of the story that he would be, you know, in his in his emotional state. Um, and so that's something we talked about in rehearsal, sort of like which where we, you know, sort of like that that journey and and where, you know, we went over sort of like key scenes and where he would be within those key scenes emotionally on that journey. Um so it was a lot of sort of like plotting out and and remembering where we thought that he would be at. And, you know, Lawrence is such a like uh an intelligent actor and so tapped into the emotionality of it that it was easy to to just sort of to like talk about the circumstances, right? And be like, you know, this, you know, you just saw your mom do this, you know, this is what uh you are fearful of what's happening next. Um, you know, and then we would just mine, we would start to work within like sort of the nooks and crannies of that dynamic um to mine it deeper. But you know, we we could sort of like talk about the circumstances very easily and and and he would understand sort of like the space he needed to be. It was never like, oh no, you've you know, you're way off, man. Why are you smiling? Why are you laughing? You know, like he knew he knew where he had to be, um, but it was sort of like how to make it more specific, and there would be times where it'd be more about, you know, don't rush, yeah, you know, don't rush, you know, being the this this moment of fear or this moment of uh terror or this moment of reacting. It's more like slowing down and like seeing like, you know, take that in and then and then work with that. Um so it is recognizing sort of like the smaller, smaller nuances of his emotionality and and making sure that we we capture that.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Uh-huh. Wow. Yeah. So that's so thoughtful. That's so interesting. I mean tried. I just you know, I it's funny because my my husband used to be in like documentary filmmaking and stuff like that. I just never appreciated like how how much emotional control or manage, like you're it's it's like it's almost like you're gonna orchestrate these these feelings to come and go. What why would it be what I'm confused about not not being in this field is why would it be a skill to to shut it off, even though there's like Daniel Day Lewis? You know, there's there's these like it's it's glorified to oh yeah, the character for like the entire time you're you're in the shooting the movie. Is that different to like I don't know, go method and just stay in the emotion?

SPEAKER_02:

Or uh it's interesting, but yeah, I've worked with directors or uh with actors who have sort of tried to stay in character the whole time or who have stayed in character the whole time, shouldn't say tried. Um and you know, it's definitely in terms of your style of working.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Do you shoot? Like, you know, just to oh, are you still there?

SPEAKER_02:

Like let's do or if it's kind of a mess so that you have like a person who's I mean it's yeah, I think it's about how people like to work, and I think a lot of it also is um just if they have like the emotional stamina to do what they need to do, you know. Like I think if someone can can exist in that character for 12 hours a day and and then you know go into some really intense scene and still be in that character and still be a person after you leave set, uh, you know, there's certainly actors who can do that and who are amazing. Um and but I think it's like you know, for something like this with Lawrence, uh, you know, given that it was his first role, that was just something that, you know, we really want to make sure that he um could could deal with what he was like portraying or what he was giving on screen and and and come down from that or you know um you know not not live in the th and continue to live with it. Um but yeah, I I think it really just depends on the actors because I think some actors really savor that, you know, that they can be in this character and just continue to be in that space in that um whatever it is, style of talking or behaving, that that they never have to break that. But um I think for some actors too, I can see that it it can help them to put it away, you know, and you know, like like to be able to to generate it, uh, because because some things are just so intense and like I, you know, personally I don't know how you know you could walk around all day and and and live with that sort of like feeling without having to do something about it.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah. Wow, that's so fascinating. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about the last scene, even though I'm gonna uh try not to give too much away. It just is it that last the last few minutes of the or the last third of the movie was just so powerful and stuck with us. And what I thought was actually watching it, I was we were just in shock. We were just like, oh, I can't believe that movie is over now. And and you were you and Lucy were doing the QA and she was talking about that last scene and started to cry. And then we all started weeping. And ever since then, my husband and I have thought about that moment in the QA and in the movie.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, it's God, I'm trying to think about how we had it was always uh I mean, on the schedule, it was always this massive thing that we had talked about because you know, we we knew it was gonna be such a difficult scene, and we wanted to put it towards the end of the schedule because we knew like once we did it, we had no idea could we do anything else that day. You know, it would be just such a massive thing performance-wise for Lucy. Um and you know, we we talked early on about how her walk back from the car had to be like the longest walk possible. You know, it had to be so completely difficult and so like unimaginable. Um and and you know but one what it had to be also though was a way of like sending well, I don't know how to talk about this also without giving it away. Um in in so many ways is like uh a farewell, right? And how to do that properly, you know, how to uh you know, how to make this um a proper a proper send-off, I guess, or a proper goodbye. You know, it it's not like she would it's not like she would leave takeout containers on the, you know, on the table. It's not like it would be a dirty room, and it's not like you know, it it's it's it's her saying goodbye. So um the weight of it was was always apparent to us, you know, it was always something we we knew and and and you know you know in retrospect, I didn't I didn't think about doing it any other way, but when we when we shot Lucy, you know, we had two cameras on her because she also didn't know how she would react. You know, she's like we we talked about it, she's like, you know, I I'm not sure exactly how I'm gonna behave like after I do it, you know. I it's you know, just it's you know, to her, sh she also didn't know what it would be. Um and I was like, yeah, yeah, you know, like let's let's let's just go for it. And were we ready for every anything? And I had um I had Lawrence lying on the bed though for her. And I it didn't occur to me until someone asked later, like uh if he was even there. But I always imagine you know, I always like knew that when we would shoot it, he'd be there. And I think that made it so much harder for her, right? And and in the best way, unfortunately, right? It's like she had to look at her son, who she's been playing against, you know, and we shot this towards the end of the film, um, and and try to do this thing, and it w and it was it was it was very, very Yeah, it was very difficult for Lucy to do it. You know, we only have one take of that scene um because it was so intense. And um, you know, confronting that moment was was not easy, and you know, we really had to had to like talk about it and spend the time on it and and make sure that we were ready for it because um, you know, we were ready to do other you know, other takes if we needed to. Um, but you know, in the in the shooting of it, like Lucy gave everything in that scene. I mean, like completely undone, and as as we didn't need anything else, it was like incredible. Um, but you know, talking about how the actors can put it away, you know, like she was so emotional. Like even after we call cut, like I had to go over and hold her, you know, for like 10 minutes because it she was so, you know, in that moment and and what she had to summon to do the thing she did, even though it's not, you know, even though it's not a reality, was was so real to her, though. You know, and you feel that on the screen and on the camera and at the monitors, we we felt that in the room. It and that's the that's the emotional truth we're going after. But um, you know, it's it's a testament to Lucy's skill that she could bring that. Um, but it was you know, it wasn't an easy moment, and we had we had we knew that from the beginning, we knew how difficult it would be. And so we were always scheduling towards the end of the shoot. Goodness. Oh yeah, yeah, I know, I know.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Thinking about it. Um, what do you what what is it like to get this movie out into the world? I mean, to first of all, I'm we're experiencing it now where it's like, how do we talk about a movie? We can't really talk about what the actual impact is, like what happened. Um, but what are you hoping for the reactions of people? Like how how has it been received? I know that it's out January 9th, but it's um I guess you know that you've had some screenings. What have been the reactions? What is it like to see it out in the world now?

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, it's been it's been amazing. Like um, you know, when we were when we were editing it, this is something me and uh Joe Kings, our editor, were conscious of. Like, we just don't know how people would receive it, like what kind of baggage they would bring to it, you know, how they felt about Irene, how they felt about Joe, mental illness, um, gun violence, you know, there were so many, there's so many ways to lose the audience, you know, is what we were afraid of, right? Um and it's been very heartening that people have responded to it. And and you know, our screenings uh like festivals, and we did a uh a short uh qualifying run in New York and LA. Um, like people have been open to having the conversation about it, which has been amazing, or like welcoming it, you know. Um and you know, that's what we hoped. We hoped this film would start conversations and and at our Q ⁇ A's, like it happens, like people would be sharing stories, you know, a room full of strangers, they'd be sharing stories, and it helped encourage other people to you know share their stories. And even on set, you know, we were in LA shooting, and there'd be a crew member who came to me and was like, you know, uh we were filming and sort of giving something away. And uh he he said, like, oh, you know, we did this a few months ago for my friend, you know, who has mental illness, who disappeared, you know, and uh, you know, us and a bunch of our friends had to go around looking, you know, looking for him. Um, and so even the act of shooting it was encouraging people to to talk share these stories, and that was incredible on set. You know, um, you know, the uh one of the locations we shot at, the the owners, I think part of the reason they said yes to us using their space is because their son had schizophrenia. You know, we talked about it when we were scouting, and and and you know, you know, we were describing the scenes to them, and they they completely related, and I think it helped them feel seen and feel you know like their stories was worth being heard. Um so it was uh and so that's happened also, you know, since we've been screening, and we've screened, you know, around the country, and and that's what's been very heartwarming is that that people have been open to having that discussion and been wanting it, and and you know, have been appreciating that the you know people uh appreciating that the story's been told and shining light on, you know, people who um are caring for those with mental illness, um and and the difficulties of it and the challenges of it, and and how, you know, it's not just logistics, it's like, yeah, again, all those things about culture and shame and stigma that and isolation that can come about.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah. Yeah, it's really it's really interesting what you said in the beginning, which is like this is a very hyper-specific story. I mean, it's one person story, it's Chinese, uh, Chinese immigrant, family, schizophrenia, things that you would think are pretty rare. But yeah, it it does tap into a lot of people's experiences. So it might be surprising, like how many people can actually relate to elements of the movie.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. It's been it's been surprising to us and and um and just we've had just amazing conversations, you know, like this one too, where we were able to to talk about it with people and and people will come up after screenings and and share their stories and and hopefully they're be they'll be more willing to share their stories, you know, with people around them. Yeah.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Yeah, absolutely. Last question is well, what's what's next for you? Are you gonna direct more? Are you gonna go back to cinematography?

SPEAKER_02:

Are you gonna Yeah, I don't, I don't know. This uh this film has been like the focus of my life for a long time. Um, so it's hard to think about the next project. Uh I would love uh to direct again, but you know, again, the reason I did Roseme is because it was such a felt like such a personal connection. I felt like such a personal connection to to the story, and so I hope I can find something else that um that calls to me like that. Um, but I'm certain, certainly interested and open to it. Um, but yeah, I'm also happy to keep shooting because I I really enjoy cinematography as well.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

Great. Well, thank you so much. Tell us where you could see the movie or reach out to you, or what any any links or places where the audience can go to after this.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, um maybe the easiest place or the place that we share most information about the film is on our Instagram um at Rosemead Film, all one word. Um yeah, we're constantly posting about where the film will be screening or special events. Um, but yeah, it opens um this weekend, January 9th, uh nationwide. So look for it.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

That's so exciting. And it's a limited release, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Or is it is Yeah, it's a limited release, uh select theaters. I think we're in four like 24 cities or something like that. So not everywhere, but a lot of places.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

That's exciting. So everyone go see it. So good, and so oh, like that's all I could say. It's all thank you so much, Eric, for joining us. This was a wonderful conversation. I I really admire what you did with this movie. So um I really appreciate all that you've done and coming on and talking about it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me. Um, thanks for supporting the film and and be wanting to talk about it. I appreciate it.

Dr. Kibby McMahon:

All right, little helper. So if you can, if it's in coming out in theater near you near you, go check it out January 9th, um, Rosemead. And uh we'll see you next week. Thanks so much. By accessing this podcast, you acknowledge that the host of this podcast makes no warranty, guarantee, or representation as to the accuracy or sufficiency of information featured in this podcast. The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this podcast are for general information purposes only, and any reliance on the information provided in this podcast is done at your own risk. This podcast and any and all content or services available on or through this podcast are provided for general, non-commercial informational purposes only, and do not constitute the practice of any medical or any professional judgment, advice, diagnosis, or treatment, and should not be considered or used as a substitute for the independent professional judgment, advice, diagnosis, or treatment of a duly licensed and qualified healthcare provider. In case of a medical emergency, you should immediately call 911. The host does not endorse, approve, recommend, or certify any information, product, process, service, or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast. And information from this podcast should not be referenced in any way to imply such approval or endorsement. Thank you.