Are You Stuck in a "Wrong Fit" Company? (Ft. Dr. André Martin) | Ep. #39

Feeling like you're writing with your non-dominant hand at work? Dr. André Martin, renowned organizational psychologist and author of the upcoming book "Wrong Fit, Right Fit - Why How We Work Matters More Than Ever," joins host Travis Miller on HIRED! The Podcast to expose the shocking truth about "wrong fit" companies and their impact on your career and mental health.

Dr. Martin has spent nearly two decades transforming workplaces at iconic brands like Mars, Nike, Google, and Target. Now, he advises c-suite leaders on harnessing peak performance and building thriving cultures, focusing on executive development, high-performing teams, employee engagement, and the future of work.

This episode unlocks actionable insights for you:

Identify your "right fit" companies and flourish like your dominant hand! ✨
Avoid confirmation bias in job interviews and make reality-based decisions.
**Discover the must-ask question before accepting any job offer!
Navigate remote work's hidden dangers and combat burnout as a leader or employee.
Get insider tips for "unconventional" job interviews that reveal a company's true colors.
Explore the societal shift towards meaningful connections and how companies can fulfill this need.
This episode is essential for:

Hiring leaders seeking top talent retention.
Individuals yearning for career fulfillment and a "right fit" company.
Anyone struggling with mental health, burnout, or feeling lost in their work.
Don't just get HIRED, get HIRED RIGHT! Subscribe to HIRED! The Podcast for game-changing career advice.
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Connect with Dr. André Martin & joyful
LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/3RlZL1P
Wrong Fit, Right Fit - https://www.wrongfitrightfit.com
joyful - https://www.joyful.co
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Transcript

Travis Miller: 0:00

Welcome to the first episode of the new season of HIRED! The Podcast. I'm Travis Miller. This is a conversation about everything revolving the world of work with some of the best and brightest minds on that topic. I'm joined today by Dr. Andre Martin. Andre is on a mission to help talent rediscover the over $7.8 trillion of lost productivity due to disengagement is the author of the tremendous book wrong fit right fit. And he's held key senior leadership roles and board roles dedicated to employee engagement among some of the biggest companies in the world, including target Nike, Google, Mars, and Disney and he's currently a culture strategist at joyful. Andre, first question, what's a culture strategist do?

André Martin: 0:48

So my job at joyful which is a creative agency that points their energy towards internal activation of culture, my job is to help companies get clear about what kind of culture they want. Really that simple.

Travis Miller: 1:01

Sounds pretty simple. And I think a good place to start off is it's on the first page of your book. And I swear to God, I read more than the first page of your book. But you talk about how the difference between being in a right fit company and a wrong fit company is like the difference between writing with your dominant hand and your non dominant hand. And it just made so much so much sense to me. And you can still write with your non dominant hand. But it's so much more difficult, so much more challenging, and it's never quite as good. And what was the was the moment that you you came up with that? That analogy because it just made such perfect sense in my brain when

André Martin: 1:51

I read it. Hey, Travis, I appreciate that. So I would say it really came through the stories of the interviews I did for the book, right? So I talked to 100 110 talent from CEOs down the first joiners in the workplace and their descriptions of wrong fit. Were just super compelling. I mean, they said things like, it felt like I was being punched in the face in a different way every day. It felt like everybody had a secret decoder ring for success except for me. It felt like I was slogging through mud. You know, they said, I've gone on to have these great careers. I've done these amazing things. But that moment, I've never felt less effective, more frustrated, I lost competence. I lost quality of my work, I lost faith that I was going to have a career. And so as I got through those interviews, they were so poignant, that I'm like, it's one thing to talk academically about this concept. But you need people to viscerally feel it. And so I was I actually was writing, oddly enough, myself. And I thought about that idea of like trying to with your other hand. And then it just started to make sense, but a great metaphor ever since.

Travis Miller: 2:55

And so many of those stories that you tell getting punched in the face in a different way every single day. If you don't read a lot of in those stories about people who had an inclination going in, nobody goes in and says, you know why? I don't think this is the right fit for me. But the money so good, I just can't pass it. It doesn't happen very often. And where's the disconnect in our brains? Why is it so challenging for us during that interview and assessment process to be able to say there's something in my gut, I got that spidey sense that this one ain't the right one for me. Travis,

André Martin: 3:33

you ever been out on a first date?

Travis Miller: 3:36

Yep.

André Martin: 3:37

Yep, that's why right. I think when I you know, when you boil it down, it's the interview process is very much like a first date. Right? Talent shows up in the workplace, they're on their best behavior. They're dressed to the T's, they've got these pre-rehearsed, very charming answers to almost any interview questions someone's going to ask. And companies show up with this aspirational version of who they are, what they stand for, and what it's going to be like there. And I think in the end, you know why it's hard as a couple of things. One is, when you're working with that kind of information, you're not actually getting below the surface of hey, what's gonna feel like to work there at noon, in February on a random day, you don't get that deep. I think the second thing that happens to us man, which is really a revelation that came through the stories was, when you think about looking for a new job, it's all dopamine. It's all excitement, right? There's a few reasons it could be bigger title, it could be more pay, it could be a cooler brand. It could be just simply that someone out there sees you and seems to really like you. And when you get that information in your field of view, your focus Narrows and frankly a thing called confirmation bias takes over where if we're motivated to make a decision that is I want that more pay better title cool brand. You actually start to ignore all the information in the field that would be contrary to you making that decision. And so it's a little bit of fault wire in the human brain that kind of gets us started to where we just don't see it. What was interesting is if I go back to the interviews, and I was talking to all those individuals about their wrong food experience, I asked them, hey, take me back to the moment when you knew. And in retrospect, what they all would say is this, they'd sort of pause and laugh, and they'd say, You know what, I'm being totally honest. I knew at the interview, I knew in my gut, something felt off. But I didn't want to admit it to myself, because everything else looks so good.

Travis Miller: 5:38

Yeah, I mean, it makes a lot of sense. And to continue with the, the dating analogy, I mean, the interview process is going on three or four dates. How often do you ask someone to marry you after three or four dates? You never do. It's the ability to continue to love someone, not when they're at their best when they have the practice responses when they're putting on the show. It's the ability to love someone, when they've got the flu when they've had the worst day possible when they're hungover when they're the fart next to you in your bed. I mean, that's, that's when it's, you want to marry someone when you still love them at your worst? How can? How can an individual do that self reflection, ask the right questions, take the interview process in a direction to be able to understand what is this experience working at this company going to be like at its worst? And am I still going to love the job I'm doing and the people I'm doing it with, even in situations like that?

André Martin: 6:46

Travis, that singular question you said at the end is probably the most powerful way I've heard it stated. Frankly, even more better than I put in the book is this idea of hey, when this company is at its worst, will I still be able to love the people and the work and the place that I'm doing. And I think that is the ultimate sort of view into what commitment and potential right fit experience looks like. Because it's not always great, right? It's not always gonna be perfect. Just like in a relationship, if you've been married or had a long standing relationship, they're not perfect, nothing close. But here's what I find really interesting. One of the things I tell talent to do is, is the first mistake we make is we start a job search by opening up the job board and looking at job ads. And as soon as we do that word of marketing machine, the minute we see that enticing title that great pay that cool job you're in and you have lost perspective, the first thing I tell town to do is you got to stop, take a deep breath, take three steps back and really do some deep self reflection of what are you actually solving for? Like what is not true of your current environment that's making you so ready to go and leave a place you've invested a ton of time in? You know, and I think in this day and age where we just live in social media and all this onslaught of greener grass, I think we're a little bit quick job. And and so in that, you know, if a talent can just sit back and say, Hey, what am I solving for? What kind of life do I want? What needs to be true right now today? What do I value? How do I like to work? Who's my ideal leader? These kinds of questions, if you get that done first, then you can start looking into the world of marketing. That is the first dates of interviewing and keep clarity.

Travis Miller: 8:28

Not many people do that. I mean, it's- people say they either need a job, or they're in a job where they think they could be happier somewhere else. But I think they say what is the job that I've done before? I'm going to go out and find a similar job as possible that I have the experience doing. So what are what are the steps an individual should take to figure out what they really want to do and who they want to do it with? And then I got a follow up question after that. But I don't want to lose track of that thought.

André Martin: 9:07

Yeah, Travis, I'll start with the fact that, Hey, you said something really important there that you know, you have many of us, most of us have to have a job. Right? And so there are times when your job is just a job. I've got two kids in college, I have to work, you know. But there also be times in our careers, when you're going to you're gonna have a choice, you're gonna have a choice between option A and option B, you're going to have the, you know, the sort of wealth or ability given your circumstance to go out and look for a new job. And in that choice, you have to be really ready to make the smartest possible decision because you know, we spent 13.5 years of our adult life at work every second every day, every month, it's second only to sleep. It's more time that we'll spend with our spouse or significant other and yet the information we're willing to have to make that choice is like that much. I mean, Almost nothing. And so what do you do? That first thing is that self reflection? In the book, I actually put in eight excursions, what I call them to help people do that work in depth values, the life you want in five to ten years, how you like to work, your ideal leader, the ideal kind of company you'd like to work in? And then really, what are you solving for right now? And then the last one is, what's your career about? There's three different types of a career? Which one are you building? And what does that say about the kind of job should be looking for? If you do that first, man, you look for more than just the same job you're doing in a different place for more pay, which we know doesn't lead to greater job satisfaction?

Travis Miller: 10:39

Not often. Not unless you get lucky.

André Martin: 10:42

You get lucky. That's what everyone described it as, I'm like you found right fit. And they're like, I'm not sure I could do it again. And a lot of people say they had it- This is the thing that got me Travis so much is the number of people I talked to, like, if I look back, I had rights to it. And I didn't respect it. And so I started digging in on why, yeah, like, why is it that we leave these places and inherently, as we look back, we're probably the most comfortable place we worked. And it's because of that concept of comfort. Right? Comfort is a different neurotransmitter than dopamine, it's oxytocin. It's like getting a long, soft hug. Right? That's what it feels like. And so often, when I'm seeing talent tell me is that they miss took comfort for boredom or lack of momentum.

Travis Miller: 11:32

Well I could see taking it for granted, and especially if the fit is right, but the times are tough. Yeah. And it's like, being in that state. That's the analogy we were talking about earlier, where you don't realize that you still love that person, despite the worst moments, you forget about the good times the great moments, and whether it's a challenging economy, difficult project, whatever, making the situation, not the ideal. You think it's probably going to be that state forever, and not a challenging moment or time? And then they go out and try and recreate the good situation.

André Martin: 12:25

But it's not there. Yeah.

Travis Miller: 12:27

It's not there. So is that a learned skill? It's almost like- I'm a little hesitant bring this up. It's a little personal, but it was, I was going through some challenging times, a while ago, a while ago, some mental health things. And one of the things that helped me get out of it was my son, he's a young kid, he's five, and we were talking about he was also having some challenging times responding to anger. He's fine. He was on some medication that was big and go a little crazy. But we talked about the anger monster, and the anger monster would show up. But then one day, he said, Well, Dad, if I've got an anger monster, does that mean I have a happy monster? Yeah, okay, sure. Let's go with that. If I was okay. With my angry monsters always winning. And he's turning my happy monster, an angry monster. That means there's more angry monsters. Okay, five year old has a PhD in psychology and goes, Well, I think, I think I need to make more happy monsters, because then the happy monster will defeat the angry monster. And then I'll have more happy monsters, and it'll be easy. And I'm like, holy cow. And I just was able to do that I was able to consciously observe the good moments, the happy moments, the the times of contentment. And by being more deliberate and observing that it was much easier to accept the challenging times accept the bad moments and let them pass by. Yeah. And I'm thinking of, is that a skill that is capable of being learned? By an hour by the by anybody, by an employee to take that to work to observe the good moments, to be to say, I am happy doing this work. I'm happy in this project. I'm happy with this conversation with my coworkers. So that when the challenging times do arise, and they will arise to let them slide by as a moment, and not a state of loathing and hatred for the work in the company. Well

André Martin: 14:50

hey Travis, first I'd say it's just, I think it's a remarkable thing to do for your listeners to share struggle. Mental health struggles are real. I'm a big advocate for it. I've hadd them, my son's had been, it's been a part of my family. And if we don't, especially as males start talking about the fact that, hey, it is hard, and we aren't always okay. We just can't create space for anything else. So I just say first, thanks for doing that. Secondly, and I think your son is wise beyond his years. And there's two reasons why I say it. The first one is we know that a practice of gratitude, the daily practice of gratitude, it can literally change your life in enormous ways, all the way down to you will, over a 20 year period, study by research, have less visits to the hospital. Surely, if you can sort of get yourself in a place where you have gratitude for the things that are happening around you. And there's a couple of reasons psychologically, why that is, it just lowers cortisol levels, no matter how bad life is, if you can find a few moments in a day that are good, then it will lower that stress level over time, we know that will just help your body to continue to recover. I think the second thing that's really true is, is that a practice of gratitude allows you to take stock and go all the way through stress cycles, right? One of the things that happens in burnout right now in the workplace, isn't that we're overwhelmed by all the things we have to do. Yes, it's a lot. But hard things are hard. We're in a hard time, what's happening is that we're not getting all the way through the stress cycles. So there's a great book on burnout called burnout that talks about this concept where if we don't go all the way through the stress cycle, we don't get all the way through that idea of why is this hard. We just end up running, fight or flight to the next thing and it compiles and just like compounding interest, it gets harder and harder and harder to bear. And so I think the second thing is bring up Society of hey, part of thinking about happiness also allows you to take a step back and see the fuller picture. Right when the when the anger monsters are inside of you, all you see is bad. So I think the second thing for talent, first practice, gratitude really helps. The second thing is, don't just take stock when you're getting ready to go look for a job. Take stock your life every quarter at a minimum. Right? Look at hey, does this place still make sense for me? Does it still work? The way I work? Does it still value the things I value my working for a leader I respect? Am I doing work that's meaningful to me? Because in that you start to go okay, no matter how bad the next quarter is, I know why I'm here. I know what I'm solving for

Travis Miller: 17:28

What can companies and what can leaders do to training courage, that state of reflection of gratitude so that when times are challenging when they're tough, that the people who the company is a right fit for born blinded by the current state of difficulty? I think the easiest way to put that for leaders is your job of

André Martin: 17:51

Hey, recruiting your talent, the cycles of how often you have to do that have greatly increased. So it used to be that, hey, if I joined your company, you could hire me, give me a computer set me down at a desk, say you got this Andre and I'd probably be pretty content for a while. In the cycles we're in now with all the distraction all the social media and greener grass, all the hardship that's around us, and frankly, all the opportunity for really good talent, the job of the leaders, you got to re recruit your people every day. And I always say there's four key questions that you should be answering with every one of your top talent every single day. The first one is Why is a world better with our company in it? Connect them to something bigger than themselves, and they will fill meaning in their work. Secondly, is remind them how you make money or have an impact. That's like operating model. How does this company make money? Because then they can find themselves in it? Right? The third one is remind them how we work at our best. How do we set strategy, solve problems, manage conflict, give feedback, develop people? What's our relationship with time? How do we socialize? How do we move ideas through the system, all those kinds of things that makes works work. And then the last one is remind them of the unwavering promise that the company makes to you in return for your effort. And the biggest and most important thing any team leader manager executive can do is every time you bump into somebody, you should be unequivocally reminding them of those answers to those four questions.

Travis Miller: 19:26

This is something I really wanted to dig in with you is how to do that in this current state. Because you've got a chart in your book from the American Psychological Association monitor by Ashley Abramson. And it really details the increase of work stress, cognitive weariness, emotional exhaustion, physical fatigue, and how much that has increased since 2019. And I kind of got a theory as to why that is. I don't think it's gonna be a very popular theory, but I really want your insight on because what you were just talking about every time you bump into someone, remind them of those four things. And I feel like, I think I do a pretty darn good job of the people that are in the office with me that I do see on a daily basis. reminding them of why they, why they do what they do is important, how they make money, how we make money, the difference they're making in the world, the impact they're having, in a positive fashion on so many people's lives. Where I find it challenging for myself, is the half of our office that are working hybrid ly remotely that I don't physically see on a daily basis, to have that deliberate daily interaction without feeling like I'm intruding in their space or micromanaging their career. It has to be more deliberate. And I'll admit it's been a it's been a challenge challenge for me, how can leaders overcome their ability to continue to do what you're talking about? With people that they aren't able to physically do it with on a daily basis?

André Martin: 21:14

Yeah, hey Travis, I think there's a couple of things in there that are that I've just been reflecting on. I'm not sure if the right answer for him. But they're, they're compelling me in it in an interesting way. I think the first one is, you know, watching all of our leaders and companies come through COVID. and out the other side of pandemic, the first conversation we're all having is, how many days aren't you to be in the office? Is it three? Is it two? Is it four? Is it one? Is it none? Is it all like that in we're still having that conversation? And I've been reflecting on hey, that's important. But we're missing the larger point. Right? The larger point is coming out of COVID, you should ask yourself, How does this company and frankly, me as the leader of it, how do I work at my best? Right? How do we do all the things I mentioned, you know, set strategy, solve problems, develop people, kickoff initiatives, socialize ideas, all those things? answer all those questions first. And it will lead you to the right strategy around location and how many days hours, weeks, months, people should be in the office. So that's one I think that's I think we just had the conversations backwards. And so now we've chosen a location strategy. And now we're trying to force bit of way of working that just isn't natural to us. If I was working with you, I'd say hey, obviously, then you are leader who is best when you're able to have your people face to face. Right? Well, I mean, I tell you, a great organization allows you beat your best and your company is going to be a better company, your people are going to be happier, more engaged. There's other leaders who frankly, can say, hey, I'm better leading remotely. I think the second part of this is the technology we use for remote work, doesn't create the moments for us to connect and convey those same messages. It doesn't require you. So like, I'm looking at technology that requires you in your calendar without your choice to have pop up meeting show up where you have to connect with people you never see in the office. Right? I mean, it's like, we don't have that right now. No, like, I'm like, that's the kind of thing that happens to you now that we don't realize is occurring is that you're popping into a meeting. It just happens to be live. And you've got three people you're planning to talk to, but now you're going and you're conveying all the things you want to convey to them. I think leaders need that sort of technology. Otherwise, we optimize technology for efficiency.

Travis Miller: 23:34

Yes.

André Martin: 23:35

Right? And so we use Zoom and teams to cram as many meetings as we can. And in those meetings, it's all tasks. And then the last thing I would probably say, around this, this piece of, you know, sort of stress and burnout is, I don't think any of us feel as connected as we once did. Because even if you're in the office, you're still on video all day. Yeah. Right, you're still in half the companies out have cameras in everyone's on video all the time. So you might as well just be remote company, in part. But I'd say this is that humans literally created their entire way of living on human connection. It was our route to safety. It was our route to sustenance. In the early days. It is the basis of everything we've been able to do from an evolutionary standpoint. And yet, we're really starting to lose that in our communities and our neighborhoods, and now in our companies. And you know, I'm looking every day for the best solution to help people figure it out. getting any closer. Yeah, I mean, some of the things I said feel closer I, you know, I'd say this is I wonder two things. One is, I think employees or talent are looking for flexibility. Okay. I think leaders have mistakenly thought that that has to be location strategy, and I don't believe it does. I don't actually believe that's the thing that we're asking for. It's just the only thing that we're being given to choose from. So we're just Using less days in the office, but the first thing I'd say is think about the ways in which you can naturally and easily give people flexibility. And I think it will start to change their orientation to the companies that we live in work in. Second thing that's been really on my mind in this regard is, is starting to think about that idea of, really, how do you operate at your best to seek many CEOs, I see many CHROs, they're responding reactively to a fear that the talent they have are going to leave. And like that may be true, it may be wrong fit for the people when you decide how you're going to work. But I can tell you, there's plenty of talent out there that want to work the way that you want to work. And it's just a question of where do you want to make the trade off? Do you want to make the trade off and potentially having to hire a new group of people when you decide how you want to work at your best as a company? Or do you want to try to change the way that you work right with your non dominant hand is the company in order to make up for what the current employees you have are asking for. And I just think it's this, it's on the, it's on the talent side as well, which is, I think we would all love to be able to choose where we need to work in a place that fits us. And you know, eventually, as the economy recovers, I hope we all have a little bit more choice.

Travis Miller: 26:13

How does a leader do that? How does a leader determine what their right fit is for their company. And I don't know if it's easier or harder for a leader to do it, to develop it for their own company for themselves, or for somebody out there trying to find a company that's a right fit for them. But what can a leader do to really determine what their right fit company is for them to be the best leader that they can be?

André Martin: 26:43

Yeah, Travis, I took a shot at it in the book, you know, there's a there's an assessment of book that's probably about 57, different continuums of work, that I would say, here's a leadership team, take yourself through that. How do we work today? How do we think we work at our best, and I think you're gonna find some interesting distinctions between even within functions, you see very different ways of working, but definitely across the whole. So that's one way. The second thing, and this is probably a lot easier to do. I'm a design thinker, you know, and designer by nature. So I would say, find the most effective team in your company. Even if it's 25 people, find the most effective group. Study and watch the way that they work. And then just repeat it for everybody else. I mean, that's it like, like, there's always positive disobedience in your group and an individual and at a team level, they've figured out a better way to optimize all the constraints that we have to create a better way of work that people are thriving every company has. And I just would say, Hey, if you study them, you're going to find a lot of natural prac principles, practices and platforms that are going to work for everybody else in your company, given the constraints, industry market and the way that you've formed, what you're trying to do.

Travis Miller: 28:00

And the advice for the people searching for their next position, what should they be looking for? Or what should the questions they should be asking themselves to know what a right fit company is for them? And then how do they assess when they're talking to companies? What that right fit company is?

André Martin: 28:17

So we talked about the former little bit in those excursions that we have around helping them think about what they're solving for? I love the question around. What do you ask? Right? In an interview, you might have time for one or two questions, right? And it's 50 minute interview, the candidate typically gets like five to 10 minutes ask question. And usually we end up asking a layup. Travis, tell me what you love about working at your company?

Travis Miller: 28:39

What's a typical day like?

André Martin: 28:40

Yeah, right. And so what I tell them is I'm like, Hey, you got to try to get a level deeper. And so I say things like, hey, Travis, tell me about the last person to come in the company. That was a tremendous success. And I want you to tell me everything about how did they come in? What do they do, how they like to work? How often they often how they show up? When they're in a meeting with you? What are some of the things that differentiate them from others, like, go deep on the one person because you make it personal, the person the other side is going to answer those questions in a much more realistic way. Because they have this human sitting in their head, that they're not going to lie about, right. So make it very, like, give a name, get a title. And then you'll get deeper into it. I think the second one that's, that's really important. And this is probably an additional interview I'd asked most talent to make is go out to the LinkedIn into your network and find somebody that has worked at the company you're interviewing at, they should have been there for at least three years. So they know the company really well. And they would have just left. And I'm like get on the horn with them if you can and interview them just like you would anybody else. Because here's the deal is they know the company really well and they're going to be a little bit more likely to not throw it under the bus but tell you the reality of what it's like to work there. And that's strategy, that interview is probably the most informative one you're gonna have.

Travis Miller: 30:03

I've never thought about that. And I've never suggested that before. How, how often do the former employees that they talk to? I'm just curious what the the outcome of that conversation is, how often do they-

André Martin: 30:17

Because they left for a reason. Yeah.

Travis Miller: 30:21

What information do does the person conducting that interview get? Do they- I mean, I'd hope it's honest. But does it come from a bias of, well, there's a reason I don't work there anymore?

André Martin: 30:32

Well, I think the first question traveling, ask them is, why'd you leave? Then you can ask them, Hey, tell me what it was like to work there. Tell me how leaders showed up. Tell me what the performance process is like, pay? How much development did you get on a daily basis? Did you work from six in the morning till 12? At night? Did you have a chance to progress your career and move around and do different things? Right? What's the recognition that they use to keep you motivated? Like these questions, you don't ask the question about why did you leave or give me all the bad dirt? All the skeletons in the closet? ask real questions that they can answer with objectivity. And most people will write because, you know, unless you're super tilted, and left on really, really bad circumstances, you know, anyone calls me about working at Nike or target or Google, I'm gonna tell them in reality, this is what it was like. Now I'm one person. But here's objectively what it's like to work there and just what you should be prepared for. And because I'm not there any longer, I'm kind of going to do it with an indifference more than trying to stick it to the my employer. Because I was there for three years, it probably wasn't all bad, right?

Travis Miller: 31:38

Yeah. No, and you make a good good point, this is something that we talked about when we were prepping this for this conversation is that there, there aren't necessarily good companies and bad code. There are, what someone might think is the worst organization in the world could be a tremendous, a tremendous opportunity for somebody else, and the best company in the world could be terrible for someone else. So I think that's, I think that's a big challenge for a lot of people because it is so There literally is no black and white to any of this, it is all shades of grey. It is it's very difficult for an individual when they're interviewing, I think to look beyond the job they're going to do, and the specific person that they're talking to during the interview process. That's right. And so what do you think is most important to an individual? And it's probably different for this is this might be a silly question, but is it? Is it what work is being done? Is it how it's being done? Is it why it's being done? Is it who you're doing it with?

André Martin: 32:53

Yeah, you know, I would probably say, in the end, one of the most important factors will always be Who are you doing the work with? The I'm just a believer that often, it's who you're doing the work with, rather than what you're doing that matters most? Right? Because if you have trust and energy and commitment in the group of people where you can probably go and do anything in the world that you want, right? So at the fundamental level, that relationship with the people really doesn't matter. But you know, what I'd say is, I think the work actually has to start with the companies that are hiring. And I'm sort of longing for a time when there's a realistic job preview. Imagine if you were you were interviewing for a job with my company. And instead of giving you a job description, this is what you saw, you saw a list of all the different ways that we get work done. Hey, Travis, when you socialize the idea here, you're gonna socialize via a big, beautiful brand deck, it's going to have poetry and beautiful pictures. And the way that you get anyone to do anything here is you gotta inspire them. Right for somebody that might be super cool. For someone else, that might be the most daunting thing in the world. So I've never used PowerPoint in my life, right? But imagine if all you saw was the way that we work first. And my question the end was, hey, Travis, that's our brand new crazy. Does that entice you? If you said yes. Then we go the next part of the interview, which is alright, here's the seven capabilities I need. I need a good podcast host. I need a good Podcast Producer, I need an organizational psychologist and I need someone that can run a forklift. Do you have any of those capabilities? And if you say yes, you know what the third conversation is? Great, if you're the podcast host, instead of giving you the 27 bullets of all the things you might do in your job, I'm going to tell you the next three projects that you're going to have to lead and be a part of. And I'm gonna ask you, Hey, do those three projects light you up? Are they something that you are really gifted at? And if you answer yes to that question, I'm giving you a job. Right. But imagine if that was the way that we did this. How much more informed candidates would be and how much more honest companies would be in that conversation, it would literally change the whole nature of what we're talking about.

Travis Miller: 35:09

Yeah. Well, it's it, I think it's, it has to come. A lot of it starts with an abundance mentality. If companies are desperate to hire anybody, because they need this thing done, or if an individual is, is desperate for a job, because we all need jobs. Yeah, it becomes difficult to objectively ask those questions without the internal bias.

André Martin: 35:37

Yeah, and Travis, I'd also say this, to your point, right? Again, back to what we started with, which is, hey, there's sometimes job job is just a job. But here's the other thing that we don't do very well. Like if I walk into a job, and it may not be my right fit, he may be really hard, I might be riding with my non dominant hand every day. But if I know why I'm doing that job. And let me give you, for instance, right, I'll go back to my situation. I've got two kids in college. Right, I have to make money. Yeah. Now, if I went into a job that I didn't love, every day, saying, it's going to be hard. But my kids college education is at stake, it changes my orientation to that job, instead of being a victim. Instead of being unfulfilled instead of being super frustrated, I start to look at ways to be effective, so that that other thing can be true. But if we're not clear about why we're there, then all it does is just feel like monotony, and stress and frustration and hardship. And you don't want to bear at some part of it, just kind of back it up and just say like, why are you in this job? What does it provide you? How does it help you I remember, I started my career at a steel mill up in Cleveland. And I was doing team leader assessment for the shift line, right. And I was doing all this great psychological assessment on these folks. And many of them were tremendous leaders. And I'd be like, you'd be so good at this job. You have every capability you need. And I remember a couple of them saying to me, Listen, I appreciate that. But you know why I come to work, I come to work. So I can clock out at five o'clock, I can go back to my family. And I can do the things that I'd love to do this job is a means to an end. And I don't want the other job because it changes my orientation, my life. And I just I thought man that is so progressive, to think like that. But that person knew exactly what that job was about. And the part it played in their life. I think many of us just don't.

Travis Miller: 37:33

Yeah. Boy, that's really interesting. When did that that shift happened, the the importance on the why and not only the, the way that you're talking about there, the why you're doing the work, but more about accompanies why? Why are they doing the work, and it seems like that has become so so much more important to people who you look back at. You know, over the last 150 years, people used to work to survive, I mean, to grow the food to make the shelter to create the clothes, and then Industrial Revolution people work to make money for their family. And now it seems like, Yes, money is still important. We need to, to work to make money. But we care so much more about the work we're doing and why we're doing it. Is that just a natural progression of taking care of the the creature comforts? I mean, we've got most of the time, Maslow's hierarchy of needs are taken care of. So now we're able to focus on how we are taking care of those needs versus just taking care of those needs.

André Martin: 38:52

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things that happen. One is 100% agree that we're in this post industrial age search for meaning in general, you know, purpose is all of a sudden become a word that we see all the time everywhere. And I mean, part of it is because to your point, you know, even at a societal level, like the US had the most consecutive quarters of GDP growth over a decade at this ever had, you know, right before COVID. And so we had this period where many for many, not all, there's still a lot of people struggling even more today. But we had this period where many people had the basic assessments so they could ask the larger set of questions. I think the other thing that happened was, it's one of those and sort of voiced aspects of COVID that caused us to sort of be by ourselves in this extended moment of self reflection, asking a different set of questions about what life's really about. You know, and I think that really spurred us on to start asking these questions, but I need more meaning I need more community, I need a place that I can feel committed to and that's sort of driven it. And the last one that's been a trend that's that's been contributing for sure is, is, I think part of what, what we started to see is that people want, they want connection, they want commitment, they want to be able to be in a place that that makes sense to them. And we're getting started that in other places in our life, there's just a lot of divisiveness, a lot of differences of opinions. And so, you know, I think that's also pushing us to find groups and people that that have an affinity for us, and we have an affinity for them. And so it might just be the new age of community, kind of finding ourselves back to some of those things, as many of our mechanisms to gain that have sort of disappeared, neighborhoods is sort of disappeared. religious institutions have sort of disappeared, you know, political affiliations have sort of disappeared, they're really bifurcated as well. So a lot of those places we've had that, you know, we now have to look to companies to fulfill some of that community fee that we used to get in other places in our lives. So that's, I mean, those are a couple of things that that I think about anyway.

Travis Miller: 41:06

Well, Andre, if you and me together can usher in the new age of community. That is something that I am all for. This has been fantastic. I really appreciate this conversation. Andre, if someone wanted to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to track you down?

André Martin: 41:22

Yeah, so you can find me at my website for the book, which is www.wrongfitrightfit.com I also am going to restart a newsletter that I did last year, that's called Monday Matters. It's supposed to be a few little micro doses of inspiration to help make your week a little bit better. And your first cup of coffee comes out Monday mornings, that one's currently mondaymatters.substack.com You can also find me over here joyful, we're doing some interesting work to add more joy into the workplace. So you can also find me there.

Travis Miller: 41:54

Well, Dr. Andre Martin, author of wrong fit right fit. This has been a pleasure. I'm going to mark this moment of gratitude for today. Grateful to you Noah Cuff, our producer. This has been HIRED! The Podcast, please subscribe to be notified of all future releases. Dr. Andre Martin, thank you so much.