Dr. Jonathan Lee Walton and Dr. Bill Leonard join Hyphenated Life and delve into the Bible, race, and faith amidst the pandemic. What does it look like to not just use the Bible as a prop, but to actually open it up and see what it has to say about racial subjugation and equity in America and around the world right now
Dr. Jonathan Lee Walton and Dr. Bill Leonard join Hyphenated Life and delve into the Bible, race, and faith amidst the pandemic. What does it look like to not just use the Bible as a prop, but to actually open it up and see what it has to say about racial subjugation and equity in America and around the world right now
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Speaker 2:One more thing. All right. Welcome to hyphenated life. I'm Andrew Daugherty and I'm David L'Hommedieu. And on today's episode, we are talking with dr. Bill Leonard and dr. Jonathan Walton, both from wake forest university school of divinity on the topic of the Bible, race and faith amid COVID-19 pandemic in America. And to be fair, you're talking with them as I sit out on the sidelines for this one, because of your relationship with them, which is significant. And mine is none at this point. And I'm looking forward to hearing, hearing the conversation and being able to just sit back and listen as our audience. Well, thank you, David. I think we are, really fortunate to have, it's sort of like double the pleasure with both of these gentlemen on today and double the possibility for what civil rights icon, John Lewis calls a good, good trouble. And these are two gentlemen who have made good trouble throughout their lives and their careers. And we are really lucky to have them both on today. Um, I know bill Leonard because he was the Dean at wake forest university school of divinity when I was in graduate school there. So he was the founding Dean and he was the one he's the reason I went to wake forest because I went to a luncheon one day while I was there. And he told this great story about Frederick Beachner and his call to ministry. And it was like Fred Beachner went to see his, uh, blind aunt in long Island. And he goes to her house. He sits down at the end of the table and she says, Freddie, I hear you're entering the ministry. Was this your own idea? Or were you poorly? And, and then in one of his books, he talks about that moment. He said, I had no idea how to answer her in that moment, but looking back, I would say it was not my idea at all. It wasn't anyone else's idea. It was rather a lump in the throat and itching in the feet, a burning in the blood at the sound of rain, a sickening in the heart at the side of misery, never remembered the words of Jesus. Come to me. Those of you who are heavy burdened with heavy hearts and I will give you rest. And so that was kind of his call, his narrative or call to ministry was that. And so bill told that story the first time I was ever at wake forest and I was just like, I have to come to school here. So that was that. And he has become a mentor and friend, and that was the ancient history of the divinity school, but that's how I know bill. And then Jonathan was at Harvard. I met him at Harvard through, um, Baptist news global, and we did a convocation there with, um, Baptist news global. And the whole theme was conversations that matter. So we actually talked about race relations, LGBTQ rights and, um, immigration. So all these pastors from around the country gathered there and he spoke to our group. And that was a couple of years ago, I suppose. Uh, and then he since went to wake forest, my Alma mater. So all that came together and Jonathan and bill have known each other for a while and been friends for a long time. So today in the Bible race and faith and mid COVID-19 pandemic in America, why, why did we get to that as a topic for, for our guests today? It seems like one of the things that has gone missing in the national conversation right now is where is the Bible in all of this? Because the Bible is being held up by politicians right now as a symbol that goes on interpreted. And so I think it's really important at this time right now, where we have, what many call the pandemic upon the pandemic, which is the racial pandemic on top of the global pandemic of Corona virus. Where is the Bible and how does that provide an anchor and roots to say something significant and unique in this cultural and global moment? So we have the Bible and race and faith amidst the pandemic upon the pandemic. And what does that mean? And what does that look like to not just use the Bible as a prop, but to actually open it up and see what it has to say about racial subjugation and equity in America and around the world right now, that's what part of what we'll be talking about on today's episode,
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Speaker 2:Welcome to hyphenated life. We invite you to join us on this journey to explore the connection of the sacred and the secular that inspires us to become more fully alive.
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Speaker 2:Well, welcome to hyphenated life. We're delighted to be joined today by dr. Bill Leonard. He is the founding Dean and professor of divinity Emeritus at the wake forest university school of divinity. Dr. Leonard's research focuses on church history with particular attention to American religion, Baptist studies and Appalachian religion. He is the author or editor of some 25 books, and he is one of the most foremost church historians of our time. Dr. Leonard writes a twice monthly column for Baptist news global in which I also have the luxury of writing for as well. He is an ordained Baptist minister, a member of first Baptist church, Highland Avenue, American Baptist churches USA in Winston Salem, North Carolina. We're delighted to have bill today and also joining us is, uh, Jonathan Walton. He is the Dean of the school of divinity at wake forest university, the presidential chair of religion and society, and the Dean of chapel. He was named to be Dean at wake forest university school of divinity in 2019 prior to joining wake forest. He was the Plummer professor of Christian morals and the PUC minister in the Memorial church of Harvard university. Dean Walton is a social ethicist who scholarship focuses on evangelical Christianity and its relationship to mass media and political culture. He's an outspoken advocate for social justice and civil rights. And his work has been featured in such publications as the New York times, CNN time magazine and the BBC dr. Leonard and dr. Walton. It is my total privilege and pleasure to welcome you to hyphenated life. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for that. And thanks very much. So we're going to take a step into some of these larger matters that relate to, uh, the Bible race and faith, certainly amid COVID-19 pandemic and America and, uh, bill and Jonathan. One of the, the national, uh, partnerships that we have is with BJC often known as historically as Baptist joint committee for religious Liberty. And we've had a series this past summer around Christian nationalism. And so I was just kind of curious when we think about Christian nationalism, that is to say a political ideology that merges American and Christian identities in some sense that that is to say, to be a real American, you have to be, u h, more specifically white and evangelicals. U h, this is something we have wrestled with as a congregation, but when we think about how that is so deeply embedded in the national consciousness, I kind of think about how is it that a middle Eastern dark skinned rabbi from a refugee family. When we think about Jesus has been so depicted commonly as white Jesus, it's almost like a, in some sense o f national mascot for American political interests. I would sort of curious for both of you to take a minute, to say a word about Christian nationalism, m any that call it white Christian nationalism, and how this depiction of a white Jesus in terms of American political interests came to be. And what you see as the consequences being today as a result of i t,
Speaker 4:That we're talking about a genealogy of white supremacy that we can trace back to the very project of enlightenment. When we talk about what it means to be a autonomous, rational, moral subject, these very definitions and understandings of autonomy and freedom are developing at the exact same time that an ideology of white supremacy and enslavement of Africa is rising to the fore. And so therefore freedom is the opposite of enslavement freedom and whiteness, the opposite of blackness people of color, and it's that sort of genealogy and history, right? That helped produce what we now know as this American project. And so therefore theologically, the kind of sacrality that whiteness has taken over time, right? And whether it's whiteness, whether it's maleness, whether it's varying Protestantism, it's the elevation of these values to being on par with God. And we begin to extract Jesus from his own historical and cultural context. He becomes decent mattify. He becomes a slave owner, the good ship Jesus, one of the great slave ships, Jesus becomes simply a projection of what we value and our varying hierarchy of authority. And so therefore what we see and what we're witnessing today, I mean, it's just a byproduct of what was launched four or 500 years ago.
Speaker 5:And as the culture develops, particularly, uh, not only in slavery time, but after the civil war Christians began to use the Bible and link a biblical texts with particular doctrines relative to white supremacy, uh, and, and the Paul line text, but also, Avery Bible texts such as the Mark of Cain and the curse of ham were all utilized to place, uh, people of color or Africans and African Americans, particularly, uh, in secondary roles as less, uh, lesser figures in what was often called the order of creation. And that white supremacy was at the pinnacle of this order of creation as set forth by God and, and preachers use those texts, particularly in the South to undergird this idea of white supremacy, uh, not only in slavery time, but then having lost the civil war southerners turned to the whole lost cause movement and went back to those texts, uh, not to support slavery, but to support, uh, white supremacy, uh, and, and, uh, a great many famous preachers, Thomas Dixon, white forest university graduate writes to the Klansman and the leopard spots as a way of affirming white supremacy in the post reconstruction South, uh, perpetuating this, this loss caused so that, uh, and, and I'll, uh, really move from something Jonathan said to say that what we learned from that is this is one way in which very specifically, uh, one can think they're right about the Bible, but be wrong about the gospel. And, um, uh, even in, in the 20th century, uh, one of the directors of the Southern Baptist foreign mission board, a man named of all things, dr. Love, uh, I'm not making this up, uh, developed a missionary plan, uh, in which Southern Baptist would first send missionaries to white Europe because the white race was the most suited one chosen by God who evangelize the quote, darker racist. This was a whole plan in the 1920s and thirties that was put forth by the Southern Baptist convention, uh, undergirding again, white supremacy. So again and again, these texts from the Bible were used, uh, to, uh, link the divine will with white supremacy.
Speaker 2:Thank you. And when we, when we think about sort of the popular image, uh, earlier this past summer with, uh, president Trump, standing in front of st. John's Episcopal church, holding up the Bible, uh, and, uh, too many, uh, pastors and progresses of our ilk, looking at that and saying, you're using the Bible as a prop, a church is a backdrop holding up a Bible that you don't read in front of a church. You don't attend that has been in some ways sort of interpreted as, uh, almost a cover for white supremacy in terms of holding up the Bible and it being kind of an emblematic of this Christian nationalism that we're we're living and breathing through right now. And so, uh, when you think about as, as sort of a segue to actually opening the Bible and reading the narratives, subversive narratives and scriptures, when you think about the Bible providing for a kind of spiritual root system for, uh, the dismantling of white supremacy, I'm curious about what specific narratives and stories bubble to the top for both of you, when you think about what needs to be really underscored from a biblical frame, not just a cultural or even a social theoretical frame, but in a biblical frame in bill. I think you mentioned this just a little bit, it's one thing to know the Bible and another thing you'd be right about the Bible and wrong about the gospel. So when you think about these biblical narratives, what do you see when we think about caring about racism as a genuinely gospel issue, what narratives really bubble to the top for both of you in terms of being a subversive narrative to this kind of dominant narrative of white Christian nationalism?
Speaker 4:Well, first of all, let me just say that in terms of holding, using the Bible as a justification and prop for violence and exploitation is nothing new. I mean, when we talk about violent evangelism, right? I mean, that is, that is, there was a history when we, again, it's, whether we are thinking of the conquistadores and Spanish conquest and, and the eradication of native populations in this country done under the auspices of the Bible. When we're talking about the pillaging of West Africa and the North Atlantic slave trade done under the authority and symbol of the Bible, whether we're talking about segregation and its expansion after the, the dismantling of that one moment where we had a multiracial democracy known as reconstruction in the late 19th century, that was done with the sum of the Bible. And so therefore the move that we saw most recently by Donald Trump in front of the Episcopal church, holding up the Bible while smoke and smoke and tear gas is still in the air. Wow. Uh, nonviolent protestors had been violently cleared out for him to hold up that Bible, Donald Trump was extending a long tradition of this sort of, uh, violent, uh, abuse, misuse, and exploitation of a symbol that many of us hold a sacred
Speaker 5:In terms of text. I go again and again, to Jesus, a sermon in the synagogue at Nazareth, uh, which really is often, uh, deemed his, his, uh, his trial sermon, his beginning sermon he's back home in Nazareth, uh, preaching to the people, uh, like in many of our growing up places have known us the longest, but may understand us the least. And, um, he, he, he reads the text. The spirit of the Lord is upon me as a nodded me to preach good news or, uh, to bring release for captives recovery of sight blind, who declared the year of the Lord's favor, the acceptable year of the bull. Uh, and then he puts down the text and they all say, yay, we're so glad you're here. It's wonderful to have the homeboy preaching. And then he begins to preach. And he preaches about race in that first sermon. He says there were all these widows in Israel, but the prophet went to, uh, the widow of naan, uh, who was, uh, not, uh, in with, within Israel. He says there were all these lepers and the prophet went not to the lepers in Israel about to name and the Syrian. And, uh, and so his first sermon is a universal sermon. It reaches out, uh, beyond, uh, the, the tribe in which he has participated, even though that is the chosen trot. He extends God's grace. And then, and this is how we know that congregation, uh, in the synagogue was Protel Baptists because they became so angry at his sermon that they wanted to throw him off the cliff. That's how I know that's a, that's a Protel Baptist congregation when, when you can start out and they love you, and then you preach the gospel and they're ready to not just throw you out to throw you off the cliff.
Speaker 2:You gotta preach the Bible and not the gospel bill. Right.
Speaker 5:The, I guess so, yeah. And, and that to me has always been, um, uh, a sign of that, that openness, uh, beyond the tribe.
Speaker 2:Hmm. Well, as we kind of think about what we have been seeing since, uh, George Floyd's killing, um, there seems to be in some sense, depending on who you talk to, I suppose, this sort of multiracial, multiethnic, almost capitalization of a movement. And as a pastor, the biggest question, the pastor of a predominantly white church, the biggest question I've gotten in recent months is what can we do? What can we do? What can we do, um, as almost a mantra, uh, this, this call to action. Um, and I'm just sort of curious, what would you think about the right and, um, proper role of white allies and what seems to be, not just a moment, but an emerging movement, uh, because historically white folks who look like me, uh, have had a tendency to come in and kind of commandeer or, uh, colonize about how things ought to work. And we have a sense that we don't need to be on the sidelines. We don't need to be silent, but I'm curious to hear from both of you to reflect a little bit about how you frame and see what is, um, the right calibration of white engagement
Speaker 4:And white involvement in this, uh, sort of George Floyd, America, where we're looking at, what we hope is not just a moment, but what can really, uh, have traction as a movement to quote my former, the late great Congressman John Lewis. W when you see something, say something, when you see something that is wrong, when you see something that is evil, when you see something that is unjust, say something, there's this assumption. When I hear my white brothers and sisters say that, well, what can we do when they ask the question? What can we do? There's two assumptions that are work. Number one, there's this assumption that all people of color know what to do. No, it's often we're asking the same questions of ourselves. What can we do? How do we, how do we seek to dismantle these varying levels of structures of injustice when we're all just trying to live right love, right? Raise our children, keep food on the table. It's not the families of color, wake up every day, uh, with an armor and a shield saying I'm going out to fight dismantle injustice and racism today. And I've got all the weaponry and tools. No, but it is. It's just a matter of when you see something, say something and taking a stand as imperfect as that stand, maybe. And the second assumption tends to be one of all of a sudden now whites are becoming more enlightened to a cause and we've got, and, and now, okay, now we've got to figure this out. Well, that's not true either, because guess what? White brothers and sisters have always been involved in varying multiracial alliances toward the cause of justice. Whether we're talking about the abolitionists movement with talking about the period of Rico destruction, we're talking about dismantling segregation in cities like Montgomery and Atlanta. That's how we have a Viola Louisa though. That's how we have a brother James Reeb, right? That's how we have a brother, Jonathan Daniels harvest for the calls. I don't think any of them, if you were to talk to them, they didn't know what they were doing. They hadn't read white fragility, what? They just saw something. And so they decided to say something and they got involved, right, as imperfect as their involvement and what might've been. And so that, that is just get involved, figure it out. Let's build the plane while we're in the air, but because guess what, we can't afford to fail and we can't afford to fall. I've my teacher this very week about this issue has been a young pastor. And I hope I can
Speaker 5:Say his name correctly, John onward. Checo, who's at cornerstone church in Atlanta and I've just met him. But I read an article that he wrote in which in part, he says a white folks like Andrew. And I need to be careful when we start by saying, we need to get to racial reconciliation, that there shouldn't be a black church or white church or a red church or a Brown church. There has to be one church. But before you can get to that, you have to talk about justice. You can't, you can't get to racial reconciliation by simply talking about Jesus apart from issues of justice and injustice, and what's gone wrong in the past and where we learn from the past to change the future. So, so I think it's one of, if when you ask what white people should do, I think I'll have two points as well. One is not to run to reconciliation until you've dealt with the questions of injustice and justice and the undergirding white supremacy that, uh, that was there from the start. The other thing is, uh, it's, it's less, at least initially, uh, what white people do then that white people listen to communities and individuals of African Americans and take their concerns, uh, about policing, uh, about, uh, incarceration, about poverty and about salaries and about education. Uh, and also, uh, about the whole political realm in general, as well as, uh, injustices in the body of Christ itself. So, uh, that's not rushed to reconciliation till we've done the hard work, uh, of, of, uh, racial repair and community.
Speaker 4:And if I might add, cause I really appreciate your you're saying that in terms of listening, and again, listening is tied to this kind of epistemic humility that I'm talking about. And as it relates to just figuring it out, right, you don't have to have all of the answers to get involved, but when you get involved and you begin to listen and you begin to learn in the process, that's not the same thing as deputizing people of color to be your personal tutor and instructor. That's right. I also think that's an important point to make. Yeah. Uh, again, we're all trying to figure it out, right? And sometimes it actually adds to the labor, particularly for of us who have been involved
Speaker 5:And are involved in this work, it adds to the labor and it becomes more laborious to not only have to do the work, but have to then train and carry someone else along. I've been learning to play golf lately. And I have an incredible a brother named James. Alison who's been my golf instructor and my golf coach, but there's two times that we work together is the time that I pay him. And I pay him for his time. And he, and he serves as my golf teacher, but I've also discovered a bill that I've learned more from him when I've just asked to go out and ride in the car and just go and just travel along with them. And I watch him and I watch his movements. I watch how he lines up. I watched the varying, uh, uh, positions of his hands. And it's just in listening and learning in the process that I'm beginning to grow as a golfer. And that's the advice that I would give my white brothers and sisters come along and listen and learn in the process of the work. And, uh, you made me think of this, about one of our mutual friends, Jonathan and, uh, Andrew, you know, him too. Um, my former pastor Daryl, Aaron, who lived two blocks from our house and we would sit on his back porch or my deck and talk about these issues. And I can never forget, uh, this is a predominantly white neighborhood. When he told me what he had told his son, who's now a junior, but was, uh, in junior high school when we became friends and he had to tell him how to, uh, act in our neighborhood. Don't run through people's yards, don't ride your bicycle by yourself at night, uh, in the store, don't run to the door. And, and, uh, I knew him and I knew his son and I was watching his son grow up and, and listening to him, talk about what he had to tell his son to live in our neighborhood. Uh, was one of those moments that has, has changed the way I think about, uh, how children are raised black and white
Speaker 3:In our country. We're here with Jonathan Wall.
Speaker 5:Well, and bill Leonard talking about race and
Speaker 2:Faith amid COVID-19 pandemic in America. We just have a few minutes remaining. And I wanted to, uh, I think some of the prophetic irony I discovered recently, uh, we hide behind mass these days because it's a matter of, of, of public health. It's a way to love our neighbors to do so. Uh, our congregation at pine street church here in Boulder, we, uh, we're going totally online for the remainder of the year. Uh, but I recently watched a sermon, John Jonathan, that you gave at Memorial church Harvard on the first day of black history month, last year, 2019, you spoke, I think, prophetically about different kinds of masks that we wear. And this was pre pandemic. Of course you said, imagine a world where rather than being cloaked in the costumes of superiority, we learned to align with one another in our own vulnerabilities. And then you quoted James Baldwin. Uh, we cleaned to our masks of hatred. So tightly for then we all for when we all take off our mask, we will be forced to deal with our pain. And so when we think about and build your story, uh, about, Darryl's so powerful, when you think about, uh, this journey toward healing and, and, uh, healing of racial subjugation, finding ways for us to join forces. And, and, uh, if you see something say something and all of the things that, uh, bill you and Jonathan both have shared with us in our audience today, when you think about the healing journey, as it relates to those masks, Jonathan, that you, so prophetically talked about, how aware are you seeing today, this sort of alignment of vulnerabilities or that, um, unveiling of our fears that you believe holds promise, uh, for a new world where we want to make together
Speaker 4:With all forms of supremacy. I mean, they become insufficient armor once again, to cite James Ball when he describes his eyes that we, that we can't afford to live in, but can't live without. And so whether it's white supremacy, it's, it's this, it's this, it's this badge of power and authority that fits male supremacy, right? I mean, it works the same way. Yeah. And these are all, these are all costumes that we wear to exercise a particular pecking order in our society and in the process, what's it doing for us? What roles they're playing for us? Well, it allows us to say, fortunately, I'm not him. Fortunately, I'm not her, but yet when we take these off with us, our maleness, our heterosexuality, right class privilege, we often see that at the most base levels, the things that connect us, our vulnerabilities, where we hurt our fears, our anxieties, those are the things that make us most human, and they also make us most beautiful. And when I think of the gospel narratives, when I think of Jesus's interaction, whether it's with a Samaritan woman at the well, whether it's those who are dealing with illness, debilitating illness, like, like leprosy, it's, those points of pain and those points of vulnerability and those points of weakness that he actually identifies with them and links them to the kingdom of God. And that, for me, that, for me, when I'm at my best is when I'm able to break through some of these varying, uh, Halloween costumes that I'm in on a daily basis and really just tap into the human condition.
Speaker 5:It seems to me that, and this is all too obvious, I guess, but, uh, one of the things that binds us globally with this pandemic is the recognition that we are globally vulnerable. Uh, and we've, we've particularly in the West. We felt we were so protected. Okay, we'll go to the doctor. Uh, we're we're not going to starve where, uh, we've got all the right systems. And suddenly we've realized that the whole world is globally, uh, bound to this and our, all of our American exceptionalism undergirded. Again, a great deal by white supremacy. We've found that, uh, because of the way we have acted to this global pandemic where a fourth of the cases, uh, in the world are us. So, so claiming the vulnerability that went with exceptionalism, um, didn't work for us really well. And, and, and likewise, maybe we can learn from this that, uh, we're also globally vulnerable may because of the environment. And we haven't gotten to that fully yet, but we're going to get there and we're getting there every day as the temperatures go up. And that those are two lessons in vulnerability that we all share. And we better take notice.
Speaker 4:So what I really appreciate your saying bill about this as this pandemic, the way expose the arbitrary nature of the things that we appeal to full authority. Yes. Even when we're talking about class privilege, right. And our occupations and the various accoutrements that collected right now, we understand the definition of essential worker has been appended. And we're seeing that, uh, things that we used to call such as menial labor, right? Yeah. Menial labor right now, we've has been proven during this pandemic to be most essential. Those who are cleaning up those who are attending grocery stores and gas stations. And so it speaks to Martin Luther King jr. His brilliant point many decades ago, there is no such thing as menial labor in this nation. There's only menial pay that's right.
Speaker 2:I want to wrap up our conversation today, Jonathan and bill, with this question, I I've sort of joked that as an alum of the wake forest university school of divinity, I think I miss class the day that we talked about how to pastor during a pandemic. Um, and so when we're kind of shifting on the fly and adapting, uh, in this exceptional time in our world and our nation and for our churches, uh, I'd like to close with this question for you both. And that is, uh, where are you finding hope these days? Where are you finding hope these days? Jonathan, I'd love to start with you
Speaker 4:Finding hope in the varying, small lacks of kindness and disruption. That's cutting against the culture. People who are understanding that we are all inextricably linked by a common fabric of humanity and garment of destiny and worshiping at the altars of me, myself. And I will only increase and will only, uh, expand the suffering this taking place in our world. But rather it's when we roll up our sleeves, it's when we begin to tend and take care of our neighbor. It's when we begin to support our local business owners, our local shop owners is when we begin to see that terms like government intervention, arch, evil, and nasty concepts. When we begin to see that the government has a greater role in our society, then to, uh, the kind of neoliberal framework of just encouraging entrepreneurial flourishing, but know that safety net since safeguards actually really matter. I mean, that is the work that it seems that we're all involved in right now. And I'm hoping that is, will not just simply be a mitigation effort in a temporary moment, but that it will be a new way of approaching our life together in this nation and in our world. Thank you, bill.
Speaker 5:Where are you finding hope these days? I find myself in all of a new generation of ministers who in this era are really first responders in my view and who are on the front line of caring for persons who are sick persons who are dying, persons who are hurting, not only with the virus, but with the chaos of our times. And they have committed themselves, I think, uh, to being instruments of vulnerable instruments of the Jesus story and the Jesus action. And I'm in awe of that with them, Jonathan and bill I'm so wildly grateful and humbled and honored that you would come on, uh, and share this conversation today on the Bible, race and faith amid all that's going on in our world. COVID-19 pandemic in America. You both are bright lights to me personally. And to many I know who are listening. And I'm just so grateful that you have, um, spent part of your, your time with us. Thank you for your generosity of time and spirit and your expertise. We are better for it. And so grateful. Thank you so much for having it. Thanks, Andrew. It's been fun. Thank you, Jonathan. Can we get a little blend love from Jonathan before we go? We'll give one love issuer in the words of Benjamin Elijah Mays, the love of God and the love of humanity are indeed one love one love. Thanks, Jonathan. Thank you, bill. Thanks for being part of[inaudible] hyphenated. Life is a production of pine street church in Boulder, Colorado hosted by Andrew darty and David[inaudible]. The podcast is produced by Phil Norman and executive producer, Alexi Molden special thanks to our guests today and the Leo Hill trust of Boulder, Colorado.