Rev. Dr. George Mason is the senior pastor of Wilshire Baptist Church in Dallas, TX, founder of Faith Commons (a multi-faith organization that promotes the common good), and host of the Good God podcast. This week, he joins Hyphenated Life to discuss the secret to longevity and authenticity in leadership, poetry and pastoral theology, the wisdom of interfaith partnerships for the common good, and the changing shape of church in America today.
Rev. Dr. George Mason is the senior pastor of Wilshire Baptist Church in Dallas, TX, founder of Faith Commons (a multi-faith organization that promotes the common good), and host of the Good God podcast. This week, he joins Hyphenated Life to discuss the secret to longevity and authenticity in leadership, poetry and pastoral theology, the wisdom of interfaith partnerships for the common good, and the changing shape of church in America today.
All right. Well, welcome to hyphenated life. My name is Andrew Dardy and I'm joined by my illustrious co-host here,
Speaker 2:David[inaudible] today. We're with George Mason, right? He's uh, an old mentor colleague friend. He kind of checks all the boxes for you. Doesn't he?
Speaker 1:He does check all the boxes for me. Um, I've known George for almost 20 years now. Um, back when I thought that the church was irrelevant and the church wasn't an organization, I even wanted to be part of, much less a minister. I met him, um, on Thanksgiving break in Dallas one year and heard him preach and thought, wow, I think maybe I should rethink whether or not I could become a pastor if this is what it could look like and sound like. And George has been a mentor. And when I get really pious, I call him a spiritual father, but spiritual friend for sure on him. Carra in the, uh, the Irish tradition of soul friend and just somebody who's deeply shaped my leadership and my approach to what it means to, uh, be in the church. Um, as a pastor. And now in the last few years, he's branched out and done several other creative projects, kind of like what we're doing here with hyphenated life. And so he has been a trailblazer for, uh, you know, progressive Baptist for the last 30 plus years. And doing that in one church is fairly remarkable and pretty unheard of in our, in our day and time.
Speaker 2:Right. Not even Tom Brady could make it all the way to that with his organization and is now in Tampa Bay, Florida, the beautiful, beautiful West coast of Florida there. So, um, so not only is, is he, you know, w I have a deep, close, personal connection with you, but what he's been up to lately kind of seems like right up our alley here, where we, where we seek to toe that wall and break it down between the sacred and secular worlds. He has a, and I'm sure we'll hear more about it, but what he's done with his podcasts, the good God podcasts, um, has, has been really cool. And, and, you know, I think a perfect guest, even if you didn't already know him. Right. For sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. The good God project is the podcast that comes under the umbrella of an organization, which is a multi-faith organization. He created in 2018 called faith commons. Uh, so yeah, the good God project, uh, it's an audio and video podcast and, um, it's, uh, at the intersection of faith and public life. And so a lot of that revolves around the city of Dallas, Texas, which is interesting because we hear all, all politics is local is what, uh, the former speaker of the house, uh, used to say in the eighties. Um, and all worship is local in terms of the church. And in some ways, all theology is local terms of the way we're connecting with our community. Do you know what I was born in Dallas, Texas, you were born in Dallas while I was born medical city, U S native Texan. I, it makes me a Texan through and through it. Cool explains the one pair of cowboy boots
Speaker 3:[inaudible]
Speaker 1:To hyphenated life. We invite you to join us on this journey to explore the connection of the sacred and the secular that inspires us to become more
Speaker 3:[inaudible].
Speaker 1:We are so delighted and grateful today to have George Mason as our distinguished guest. George has been the senior pastor of Wilsher Baptist church in Dallas, Texas since 1989. He has been a trailblazing leader in a progressive Baptist life, uh, for a long time. He currently is the lead advisor for the Baptist house of studies at Perkins school of theology at SMU in Dallas, uh, in 2018, George founded faith commons. Faith commons is a multiethnic multi faith organization committed to bringing faith to life by promoting the common good. You can find them at faith, commons.org. And, uh, one of the most interesting things to me from a distance is that he's also created the good God project, which is an audio and a video podcast that explores, uh, matters at the intersection of faith and public life and interviewing some leading lights in the city of Dallas. Uh, George birthed and directs a clergy apprentice program called pathways to ministry in Dallas. I had the distinct honor of getting my vocational start at Wilsher, uh, all cards face up on the table here being part of the residency program. Uh, and so George is a huge part of, of my life in ministry and theological DNA. Uh, he also contributes to the Dallas morning news often on subjects of public interests that intersect religion. Uh, he is a native of New York city, and you can't see it today, but he has a painting behind him as we record this call of painting from New York city from 1932, I think, and maybe, maybe George can even say something about it on today's podcast, but a native of New York city, not a Southern Baptist, uh, at all. But I think he likes to say a Baptist in the South or something like that, but a native new Yorker married to Kim, a lovely woman, and they have three children and six grandchildren. I won't ask him, which is his favorite today, but, uh, that would be funny, George, welcome to hyphenated life and for taking time to be with us today. We're so, so glad and grateful you have done, uh, done that.
Speaker 4:My pleasure, always a pleasure to be with you, Andrew, thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, today, uh, George has sort of a, a certain knack for not needing to, uh, over-prepare for things because things flow now, things flow so naturally for him. That's one of the, what are the parts that I'm not totally like him about? Although there are many things we hold in common, uh, but George, I thought today, I mean, it is so striking. I think it would be to our listeners, many of our core audience so far, uh, to hear that you've been pastor of a church since 1989, 31 years, uh, that involves some, some, uh, amazing evolution. I would imagine over that time. So why don't we start today? I'm just kind of curious about how you would describe, uh, your own evolution about being able to lead a church for 31 32 years. What what's the secret to your longevity?
Speaker 4:Um, I would say not doing the same thing the same way over and over again. Uh, you know, the old story of, uh, the teacher who went in to complain to the principal because she wasn't getting a raise or hadn't gotten promoted that year. And she said, I've been teaching here 20 years. And the principal said, uh, Oh, and, and, and the person who did get promoted or got the raise had only been there two years. And he said, uh, no, you haven't taught here 20 years. Uh, you've, you've taught here one year, 20 times. She's taught here two years, you know, and, and I think that that illustrates, you know, something of this whole idea that if you're going to stay in a place, you have to keep learning, you have to keep reinventing yourself. Uh, you have to keep, um, thinking in terms of, um, uh, not only the continuity of your relationship with people, uh, but also thinking about the, um, the moves that have to be made, the ways that you, you grow and change. And so, uh, I, I think, uh, it has to stay interesting.
Speaker 1:I think one of the ways you've made it stay interesting, at least to me being under your tutelage for so long, um, is, and, and I was just telling David this, even before we hopped on the interview today, one of the things that stood out to me about, uh, who you were and what your journey has really been since then, when I first met you and heard you preach at Wilsher in Dallas, when I was green and grin, and a total young grasshopper, uh, ed, ready to, you know, take the first flight out of the church at that point. Uh, what really impressed me was that you are somebody who integrates the things that you're passionate about in your work, whether it's art, uh, your pill, politically astute, uh, your work in social advocacy these days, uh, your love of, of things that just are about who, about who George is. And you've brought that to bear in your work. How have you been able to do that? And for some of our listeners might be curious about how you do that in a Baptist church, especially bring all of who you are of the fully alive George to your work in a way that probably has contributed to that longevity in some ways, or most ways.
Speaker 4:I, I appreciate you saying that. Uh, I, I guess I'm not terribly self-conscious about it, uh, or intentional about it as a strategy so much as just a way of life. Um, it, it does seem to fit with the idea of our spiritual conviction. That faith is always personal and incarnational. Uh, Jesus of course we say is the image of the invisible God that God is with us in a particular person, uh, in a particular people, Israel, uh, through a particular people, that church, uh, and you know, you look at your church's name is pine street church. It's a location, it's a, a particular place. It's not, um, you know, it's, it's not the street down the street, it's that street and it's, and, and I think you're not me and I'm not you. And so I, I think all of these particular isms are really important because, uh, you know, it sort of reminds me of, um, okay, here we go. The poet, w w H Auden Auden said about his poetry, that he hoped that it would be like a good Valley cheese local, but prized everywhere. Yes. Love that. Right. So that is to say, poetry is always better. If it's talking about particulars, uh, not about generalities and in the particulars, then you can generalize, you can find yourself in them. So I would say, right, uh, over the course of 31 years, I've been, you know, more or less interested or passionate about this or that subject or this movement in my life, this thing going on, how I'm changing and what's happening in me. And it, it comes out in my preaching. Uh, it, um, uh, and it's inevitable that it would because they called me not somebody else. Right. And, uh, and there was a time when I was in my thirties and now, now I'm in my sixties. And so, you know, it just is what it is. So all I'm saying really is, uh, that if you are authentically yourself, then the, the leadership of the church, the preaching, all of that will be reflective to some degree of who you are. And of course the trick is not to become, uh, so self-absorbed, or self-referential that everything, uh, ends up being about you, but rather it, there's a, there's an openness to other people to find their story alongside yours, because you've actually opened yourself up, uh, in, in certain ways, sometimes that's telling a story about yourself. Sometimes it's not even doing that sometimes as you say, it's, it's about, um, a particular interest in history at this moment that somebody else is interested in history or poetry or sports or something happening, uh, in, uh, at that time that, that you've been throwing yourself into, uh, social justice matters or, or some such thing. Uh, anyway, so yeah, I, I think that is a key and, and of course it does, uh, have the, um, the sense of how a church then begins to become more and more reflective of the consistency of its relationship to a pastor over time. That has, uh, the, the, the positive side of, uh, a cohesive community that understands itself in relationship to a consistent, uh, leadership, uh, team. And it also has, of course, the potential downside of a church, uh, becoming so associated with a particular person, uh, that its identity then could be in crisis when something happens, right? The pastor gets hit by a bus or falls off the pedestal in whatever way. Uh, and we all have seen that sort of thing happened many, many times, but, uh, I think there were positive things to come out of. Long-term pastorates, especially if you have a generally healthy pastor and a generally healthy congregation,
Speaker 1:I love what you're saying about particularity, and there are certainly a few ways we can go about that. W David and I were talking again, before we hopped on today about a tip O'Neill speaker of the house in the eighties, who said, you know, all politics is local, and you could kind of break that down into what you've described. You know, uh, all worship is local or a church is local, as you said, but the particularity of, and, uh, and, and the cheese image from OD. And I love that I'm going to have to circle back and keep that one in my pocket, but that's also the move of the particularity of I become, we, uh, and depending on who you talk to, I believe it's Malcolm as Malcolm X who wants wrote, uh, when I becomes, we, even illness becomes wellness. So even when you're in, you're the one who really taught me about the power of pronouns and the pulpit, by the way. But, so if we're not, even when we're not saying, I, uh, even when we're saying we giving voice for the whole community, in some sense, we're still telling part of our stories there. And I think that's part of the power of that particularity or that I becoming, we certainly, uh, in the art and craft of preaching is as you were describing there in part,
Speaker 4:Right? And I think a lot of this, uh, from the point of view of how to lead a church as a pastor requires that you have enough faith and self-confidence that between you and the church and the presence of the spirit in your life, uh, together you'll have everything you need to figure out how to be the church. God wants you to be the thing that is so disturbing to me at times is the, um, the sort of Walmart is a nation of the church, uh, where there, there becomes this sort of generic model that succeeded in this place and became wildly, um, expansive. And everyone became envious of this model. And now let's all go to school on that and turn our church into a, sort of a satellite of that, uh, whether officially or unofficially and, you know, that doesn't necessarily take account of the geography and the demography and the sociology and the, you know, anthropology of a particular place and people. And, uh, so you know, it w we all go sort of whoring after the latest, uh, most attractive model. And I think, uh, we should, uh, pay a little more attention to the uniqueness and confidence that should come from our training and history in our own place.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think almost what I hear there is a little bit, you talked about being authentic with who you are, be, who you are on the outside, be who you are on the inside. I think that I was once given that as a definition of integrity. Um, and I think that's a beautiful thing. And as you are on the inside, always changing what you are on the
Speaker 2:Outside is always changing. And you alluded to that as being a giving life to no longevity in a position. And then I'm hearing now also that can kind of exist organizationally, right? If you, you work from the, if you work the wrong direction, then you're, you're not creating something that's true and authentic and has integrity. And, and therefore it's missing out on some substance and, and really missing the Mark on whatever it's trying to do. Um, I know for me personally, um, music has been one of the, the driving, uh, things in my life personally, from creating music, hearing music, listening to music, and that has been one of the most inspirational, impactful ideas in my life. And as I sort of grew from, I was a music major, I have a bachelor's and master's in music and, and started here at pine street church about 12 years ago as the bass section leader in the choir. And here I am 12 years later, um, not necessarily with a piece of paper from a seminary, but a lot of experience living in the life of a church as a musician, and now as director of worship and the arts. And, um, one thing we have done here is we've begun to incorporate, what's considered secular music into a sacred worship experience. And for me, that comes from largely, um, that's, that's, what's inside of me and what has impacted me and what led me there. And I think it's, it's very much naturally become a part of our community here. We have, uh, it it's gone from, you know, one song, maybe a Bob Dylan song that references God or Jesus or something 10 years ago in the middle of a service. And then a few months later, another song that wasn't in the hymnal or in a praise book, and then has kind of grown to this idea where we really embrace that as part of our identity here on the corner of 13th and pine street in downtown Boulder. And we have an annual concert slash worship worship service on good Friday every year, we call it a good Friday musical meditation, and we select a secular album, um, from the Uber of classical, you know, not classical music, but classic albums that are well-known. For example, we've done a Stevie wonder album songs in the key of life. Uh, we did a Joni Mitchell album, a Radiohead album, a Pearl jam album, and w and we take that musical experience and frame it within the context of a guided meditative worship experience. I'm curious about your thoughts on, on if
Speaker 5:That sounds right or wrong or,
Speaker 2:Or, or somewhere in the middle, um, cause here at hyphenated life, we really like to delve into that place where the sacred and secular worlds can seem at odds. And we like to say that wall D shouldn't exist and doesn't exist.
Speaker 4:Right. So, you know, back to poetry again, it's Wendell Berry, uh, who, who talked about how there are no, um, th there are, let's see, what's his phrase, Andrew, do you know this one there's no sacred or unsafe grid places? Um, there are only sacred and, uh, desecrated places.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes. That really connects well to the Madeline lingo that we talk about where we can reference a lot. I think maybe every episode so far there is nothing so secular that it cannot be sacred. Yes. Same idea from Wendell Berry. Nice.
Speaker 4:Right. So, yeah. So I think David is, it's an interesting observation, you know, when you ask me a question, like, is it right or wrong? I would S I would say, we have to learn that there's more than one, right. Answer to a lot of questions. Uh, I heard a, um, or watched an old video tape of a guy who was a photographer for, mm. I don't know, um, maybe it was look magazine or life or something like that back in the day. And he was, he was speaking to the, um, million dollar round table, which was like, uh, this old, you know, sort of salesmen's club, you know, the sold a million dollars worth of stuff or something like that. And, you know, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, this was sort of a big deal, I guess. Anyway, he was talking about how for every great photograph that he took, um, that, that was printed in a photo, uh, spread in a magazine or a journal. He took, you know, maybe hundreds of photographs of that same scene. And from among all of them, there might be, uh, you know, a small handful that were right. And some of them were more right than others. And ultimately you have to kind of come down and say, you know, there's more than one, right. Answer here. This one fits this better than that. And, uh, and, and, and celebrate that, you know, not to say this other approaches is wrong or bad, or there's this angle, this perspective, this view of things now, you know, that doesn't mean that everything is equally right. Uh, I think that's part of the whole process of canonization. Say of scripture. We have a Canon of these 66 books. Um, most of, at least Protestantism Protestantism says that. Um, but you know, it doesn't mean that there's no wisdom outside those 66 books. Right. Uh, it, it means that the church across time has said, these are the most right. For the formation and shape of our understanding of the faith. And then we can read and appreciate, uh, great works of art and literature and, and spiritual wisdom and other traditions as well. But these are most right for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I liked that. I think, um, I think that's similar to how we use it, uh, here at pine street church, the idea of using, uh, non-traditional sacred music within the context of a Christian worship service. It it's certainly, um, from the very beginning, our focus has had, has been in, has always been to frame it appropriately, right. So you're not just dropping it in because that's your thing now, you're, you're, you're saying, is there something that could, that could enhance our experience of this common language that we have that is, that comes from the Bible, you know, and for that matter, you know, the, every, every church has a different hymnal in the, in the pews. And those are not, you know, made by some power on high or anything like that. So in most of the music that we sing in churches, um, particularly communally has been written in the last hundred to 150 years. So, you know, again, that's, I think a sign of times change and people change and cities and towns and blocks change in, um, in the church as an organization and institution changes in. And, um, I think that's exactly it that if, if there is a place for it, then that's like you said, that's, if there is a right answer for it, there are wrong answers for it, certainly. But if, uh, if the case can be made for it being the right answer, then, then bring it on. So to speak.
Speaker 1:And for the poet, Lauria, it's out there listening. Uh, we were trying to get the Wendell Berry quote, right? Uh, well, at least Andrew was, uh, there are no unsafe grid places. There are only sacred places and desecrated places all need to find a place to sit down.
Speaker 4:Nice. I
Speaker 1:Love that clincher. Yeah. Yeah. So finding places to sit down, I think it's what, what's what we've done with, with good Friday. Good Friday night, um, musical meditation. We've, uh, the last two years we've actually incorporated George, uh, a more traditional good Friday liturgy that happens before the good Friday night, a musical meditation concert that David was just describing. And it's interesting to me, you know, it's one of those things that you were mentioning earlier about not, uh, you know, not selling yourself out, so to speak, uh, of the church, just because what works in one location may not work in another. And that idea of particularity coming back, uh, you know, Boulder, Colorado is different from Dallas, Texas, uh, on more than one level. And so, as we're, we've been experiencing what's going on with these meditations, I can't help. But notice though, you know, is that the, the participation level for that good Friday concert is very different than for the good Friday traditional liturgy, you know, and I know that you're a good Moltmann is near and dear to your heart, historically theologically, you had, uh, the great German theologian, uh, but, uh, it's one of those things where, how do you live again in this hyphen space? And, uh, Moltmann talks about the, uh, uh, the idea that there's this dialectic of relevance and is dialectic of identity. So if we're thinking about identity, what are we rooted and grounded in, right. This particularity, but, but if the more we cloak ourselves in the language of the church and in language and rituals that may not, uh, immediately translate to folks that don't have a connection to the church in some way, uh, we risk relevance on the other hand. And so I think for me that good Friday moment of, of that liturgy and of the, of the meditation really brings that together in a way that I'm only thinking about this right now, but that's one of the ways we do live in a, in the dash or in the hyphen space as a church in this whole mix of identity and relevance that we're constantly sort of, uh, you know, negotiating and translating from the church to the community.
Speaker 4:Uh, I'm not sure this is, um, exactly right, but, you know, Debbie was talking about how we sing out of hymnals. Um, uh, most of the time in worship hymns that have been written in the last 150 years or so, and, you know, that's right, but you also have in a place like Boulder, especially people who don't know that him though, right? So that's not a song that's going around in their head. They have a different kind of hymnal per se. That is part of their cannon. That's well, you know, there, there's kind of a humble, uh, right, that that's happening in their ear of a different kind of music. And when they come to church, if there's no way to connect those two things, uh, th the disconnect is, is going to mean a loss of potential relationship and community. So you're, you're working that hyphen to try to get together the hymnal in the humble. I think it's
Speaker 1:Nice. I sort of, uh, in a time we have left, I want to circle back to this, uh, what particularities really bubbling up specificity, particularity, uh, location. So, George, I want to give a chance for you to talk a little bit, you know, we probably have some, eventually we'll have some common listeners, but for folks, especially in our Boulder community. And, uh, and here in yonder that may not know about, uh, your work with faith commons, what kind of brought you to create that, uh, and how the good God project, uh, I believe emerged out of that. Uh, could you just say a little bit about your work in those spaces, and especially as somebody who's deeply in rooted, uh, at the Jesus story, it had Christian tradition, uh, how you navigate those rich relationships with, uh, faith leaders around Dallas, that you have really created some powerful partnerships and friendships with,
Speaker 6:Thank you for asking about that. And I think it goes to something that you said earlier about how you stay fresh and stay in a place for a long time. And you talked about how we go through different phases in our lives and are interested in new things. What energizes me right now in this chapter of my life, I guess you might say is that while I have served a Christian congregation of Baptist, one of the sort, uh, for these 31 years, and before that, even as, as a Baptist, um, I am especially interested in seeing America rise up and live out the meaning of its creed. Uh, not just that all men and women are created equal as, um, you know, King said in his, in his speech, but, uh, in referring obviously to the declaration of independence, but also that first amendment, uh, which, um, talks about, uh, the equality of our religious traditions before the law. Uh, we have been historically a, uh, want to be pluralist nation, uh, in terms of our laws, but we have been, uh, that's only a Deseret theory if it's not practiced, uh, defacto, right? So, um, what we know is that that historically, uh, non-Christians have felt largely marginalized and, uh, tolerated, not celebrated as equal partners with a voice that's worth paying attention to, uh, and, you know, we maybe have had historically more Christians than we certainly have then, uh, as a religious body than Jews or Muslims or other religions. But we live in a time today of globalization, of immigration, of, uh, of intermarriage among religious groups. We live in a time when that is creating increasing anxiety in our culture, the feeling that there is a loss of Christian had Gemini, much of what's happened in the support of, uh, Donald Trump by white evangelicals is, uh, it is expression of this anxiety among a certain Christians that their place in our society is no longer being valued as for its primacy in shaping culture, uh, that, that others are having to be deferred to. We can't say Merry Christmas anymore in public. What does that mean? You know, uh, you know, who's going to tell me, I shouldn't be able to say America as well. Actually. That's not really the point and it's, it's more, uh, well, anyway, I could get off, but you, you say, why have I moved in this direction? Why I've moved in this direction is to, is to bear, witness through my faith, to my friends who are Jewish and Muslim and high and Hindu and Buddhist and, uh, and other religious traditions that they matter to me. And they should have a voice that, that should be heard by others. And so whether it's in the good God podcast or through faith commons working together side by side and in a community together, that's what we're trying to, uh, to say, and to all contribute together to the common. Good.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I really, you, you use the comparison of the terms, tolerance versus celebration. That's been a drum that I have have been pounding for a while that, you know, the solution to racial intolerance is not racial tolerance, it's celebrating diversity. Um, and it, it gets back a little bit to, you know, this common tongue thing a little bit, um, when you bring all these diverse communities together, that becomes a challenge and it takes energy and effort and passion and patience. Um, you know, not, not everybody grew up playing tiddlywinks and, uh,
Speaker 6:So know that.
Speaker 2:And, uh, so I, I love those listening. You don't know, George is a theologian of tiddlywinks
Speaker 6:Put that in there. Okay. But this is the thing, right? So theology is about everything. Yes. I remember. I remember when, um, when I was trying to decide on a major subject for, uh, my, um, PhD work, um, I settled on systematic theology because I went to see, uh, my advisor and he was talking about, you know, how you could do new Testament. You could do well Testament. You could do, you know, Christian ethics. You could do, you know, all these different things. And you said that you could do systematic theology, but that's about everything. And so I said, okay, well that's for me, there it is. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes. I think that it, it takes work like you're doing, and I, I certainly applaud that. And it's something that we, we talk about here and we move towards that. Um, and maybe by year 31, we'll, we'll have gotten there or closer to that. Um, you know, w who was a mother, Teresa said, I'm in love with, sorry, I love all religions, but I'm in love with my religion. You know, that sort of perspective could go such a long way in these times. And you're, you know, you're noting that giving up power is whether you realize that's what's happening or not, is a difficult thing to do for anybody individually and culturally. And, and what happens when you're, when you have anxiety and fear is you lash out in. And so what's the solution to that. And I think what you're doing is, is amazing. And I thank you for it.
Speaker 6:Well, thank you for saying, so I would say that it's not simply a, uh, concession, uh, and, and I know you're not saying that, but I think for many people there, it may be a suggestion that by giving up some sense of privilege of priority, that there's, again, this sort of noble, uh, sort of, um, uh, gift that you're giving to others. Uh, again, first of all, we have, we have to re-examine I think, uh, how much we have actually taken it upon ourselves to Rob them of their rightful place by presuming to own the space, you know, on our own. But the other thing I think that's a really rich is that you don't give up anything in faith that doesn't come back to you in so much more, um, beautiful blessings, uh, that it it's sort of like, you know, that, that passage that we think only refers to tithing in the book of Malakai, that if you, you know, you give your 10%, then you know, it'll come back, you know, there'll be crushed and pressed down and broken, and then come back, you know, many falls or like Jesus, um, uh, jesus' words about how, uh, unless a seed dies, you know, it remains just to see, but when it dies and then it can bring forth a great harvest. I think the church in America has to start to understand that about itself, better that instead of the narrative that, Oh, we are dying because we don't have the, of people coming to our churches anymore. What can we do to make it seem that we, uh, are reviving ourselves? You know, what, if we actually saw this idea of, of death as really just a gift of giving up to our neighbors, uh, this sense of love and relationship that we w we now are partners with one another, what would happen to us if we learn to see ourself and celebrate that we, by giving up our finding, uh, and receiving so much more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, it, I almost hear in that Wendell Berry quote, where it's like, we're playing musical chairs and we've been taking up two seats at the, in, in the game, you know, and it's time to say, Oh, there's room. You know what? You can have this seat. I don't need two seats in this world where, you know, where there's only enough sacred seats to go around. Other than that, it's just desecrated seats. So, um, yeah, I think,
Speaker 6:Yeah. Who is it bright? Was it black Brian McLaren who talked about build a bigger table? You know, if there's not enough room at the table, build a big
Speaker 2:Hyphenated. Life is a production of pine street church in Boulder, Colorado hosted by Andrew Doherty and David[inaudible]. The podcast is produced by Phil Norman and executive producer, Alexi Molden, a special thanks to our guests today and the Leal Hill trust of Boulder, Colorado.