Hyphenated Life gets to sit down with Ryan Daniel Dobson, the writer and director of the film Hosea, produced by Avril Speaks and Suzanne Watson, who also join us for this episode. Together we explore the expressive crossover of the sacred and the secular worlds of a cast of characters in modern day Oklahoma City and the Old Testament biblical story of the minor prophet, Hosea. The film itself is a modern-day retelling of this ancient story through the eyes of its forgotten female character, Gomer, Hosea's wife, represented by the character Cate in this inspiring film. Find out more about the film HERE
Hyphenated Life gets to sit down with Ryan Daniel Dobson, the writer and director of the film Hosea, produced by Avril Speaks and Suzanne Watson, who also join us for this episode. Together we explore the expressive crossover of the sacred and the secular worlds of a cast of characters in modern day Oklahoma City and the Old Testament biblical story of the minor prophet, Hosea. The film itself is a modern-day retelling of this ancient story through the eyes of its forgotten female character, Gomer, Hosea's wife, represented by the character Cate in this inspiring film. Find out more about the film HERE
Whereas she says toward the end, there's good inside of me. Not later when I'm fixed right now, I'm good. That's hopeful.
Speaker 2:One of the things that they, they show there is that, um, you know, you do have inherent good goodness within you and, and you don't have to be fixed. And in fact, you can't be fixed. So someone waiting on you to be fixed, to give you their unconditional love or to think that they can fix you. Um, there are fallacies, you know, and it's that, that sort of sacred versus secular that doesn't exist. Let's all come down here to the level playing field,
Speaker 1:Welcome to hyphenated life. This is Andrew Dardy, along with I'm David[inaudible]. We're here today with the writer and director of Hosea, the film along with two producers, Suzanne and Avril for a great conversation on a fairly extraordinary film. It's, it's very unique in the sense that it's, it's really a, uh, uh, a full narrative of a core Hebrew Bible story, the prophet Hosea, uh, part of, one of the, what they call 12 minor prophets in the old Testament. But this movie is about recasting and retelling that ancient story about, uh, the prophet Hosea and Gomer and unpacks the background of all of that story and, and very raw and real, uh, and human ways. And, um, all of these questions about relationships and faith and redemption and self worth and self love. All of those huge themes are spotlighted in Hosea. And it's amazing to me that, you know, a book like Hosea in the old Testament, that's not really well known. I was just kind of thinking it's not, Jose is not a natural, at least in my experience, a natural, uh, Bible story to explore and study it doesn't come up that often. And, you know, if you're a church nerd in the church lectionary calendar, we don't read from Hosea very often, maybe a couple of times over a three-year period or so. So it's very interesting that this story has bubbled up for Ryan Dobson, the writer and director, uh, and making a film about, um, a story that has such core themes of, of love and forgiveness and perseverance. Yeah. I don't think, uh,
Speaker 2:Top 10 most Googled books of the old Testament, probably. You're not going to probably hit on Jose on anybody's top 10 list.
Speaker 1:And, uh,
Speaker 2:Interesting to me that they titled the movie Hosea just like the book in the old Testament, but the main character isn't Hosea has it it's it's Henry it's well, Henry is, is the equivalent of Hosea. But the story is in this movie is told from the perspective of Kate, who is the biblical stories, equivalent of Gomer, exactly. Which is flipped upside down or at least backwards. Um, and I think that for me, changed everything, right? It, it, you go from the protagonist being this male salvation figure Hosea to we're seeing this story told through the eyes of, of, it's not, I don't want to say it's the antagonist in the biblical story, but, um, it's, it's not, it's not the good guy, right?
Speaker 1:Right. No, it's told through the eyes of what, uh, the director Ryan Dobson's called the forgotten female character, which is Kate, uh, uh, the Gomer equivalent in the old Testament story. And it has been told by two of the world's biggest faith traditions. You look at Judaism and Christianity as a metaphor for love and forgiveness. Uh, but it's also been used throughout history to, uh, for, for difficult things like subjugating women. Uh, it's been used to justify spousal abuse or to blame victims of violence and sex trafficking as though their own very painful experiences where their own fault. So this film offers an alternative and, uh, to that a more redemptive version of this ancient story. And it's interesting because it's such a subversive narrative in a certain way, because when you read the book of Hosea or, you know, lessons we have learned from that, whether through the church, mainly through the church, I guess if you're familiar with that story, it really is through the eyes of Hosea, which allegorically Hosea. If we want to put it in simple terms, Jose has God, Gomer is representative of Israel or humanity, which Kate is. And so we're seeing this story through the eyes of real raw humanity through Kate's character. And I think a lot of this too, is, uh, subverting a severe patriarchy that we get from a lot of biblical stories. And so we look at this story through her own eyes, through her own journey, with substance abuse, with, uh, a lot of messiness of love and addiction, uh, and her journey to find self-worth. And self-acceptance through all of that. It is a very different angle of vision than what, uh, we are, you know, taught in the church about the dominant narrative of Hosea, which I think makes
Speaker 3:Extra intriguing, welcome to hyphenated life,
Speaker 2:Invite you to join us on this journey, to explore the connection of the sacred and the secular that inspires us to become more fully alive.
Speaker 3:[inaudible]
Speaker 1:We're so happy today to have the writer and director and two producers for the film Hosea with us on hyphenated life. And I'd love to introduce, uh, Ryan Daniel Dobson. He's a filmmaker based in Los Angeles. He is the writer director of the feature film Hosea, the founder of revived transformed vintage clothing and producer writer of the narrative podcast. The thicket after studying theology in college, Ryan turned his attention to the entertainment industry with a focus on marrying theological and philosophical concepts to powerful visual storytelling and an in addition to the film Hosea, which we're talking about today, Ryan has written and directed several award-winning short films featured at festivals around the world, Ryan dental, Dobson, welcome to hyphenated life today. Oh my goodness. Thanks for having me. That's quiet. And just like to start most mornings this way. This is great. Nice. Yeah, very good. We're also joined today by Suzanne Watson. Suzanne began her career in the live special events world where she planned and produce major events all over the United States, including the Superbowl, what presidential inaugural ball college bowl games in the president's cup shortly after moving to Los Angeles, Susanne combined her love for the entertainment industry and experience in live event production to producing films. And she has produced several award-winning short films, and most recently returned to the Napa Valley fem film festival with her feature Hosea, again that we're talking about today, that wasn't the jury award for best verge performance recognition way to go, Suzanne. That's awesome. Welcome to hyphenated life. Thank you. It's so good to be here and last but not least Avril speaks is also joining us today. We have a whole small group of people on our, on our call. April has been carving out her path as a bold, innovative content creator for several years, not only as a producer and director, but also during her days as a former professor at the distinguished Howard university, she produced the award-winning film, Jen, which premiered in narrative competition at South by Southwest and one special Jerry recognition for riding. Uh, she also gained, uh, well, the film Jenn gained distribution through MGM Orion classics and continues to be seen throughout the world. Avril has also produced several films, including Hosea, which we're talking about today in the South African film, African America and the comedy Dottie and soul April has coordinated international film education programs, such as global media makers and the inaugural Hollywood foreign press association filmmaker residency. She is a contributing writer for Deere producer.com and has also directed feature films, the round table and the award-winning sophisticated romance. April speaks welcome to hyphenated life to you.
Speaker 4:Well, thank you. Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1:So my goodness, uh, Hosea the film as a pastor here in Boulder, Colorado at pine street church, I have just been thinking about, you know, how infrequently the Hosea narrative comes up, even for all the church nerds listening in the lectionary, which we generally follow here at pine street church in Boulder, how infrequently the Hosea narratives come up for liturgical worship. And so, uh, it is, uh, just a powerful retelling of this ancient story of Hosea, one of the 12 minor prophets in the old Testament for those who don't know, but this is through the eyes of what you all have described as the forgotten female character of Gomer and that character's name is Kate and the film Hosea. So I just sorta wanted to start with, with any of you and all of you of what inspired you to make this film. And how did you pick Hosea, uh, to, to do that?
Speaker 4:I'm fascinated by your point that, uh, Hosea doesn't come up very often, uh, in the lectionary or used in churches. I wonder why that is. Why are we scared by this text? You guys, um, I, uh, I, all of us have kind of slightly different versions though with similar stories about how we came to this idea in this film. Um, but generally it was because I think all of us having grown up in faith spaces have heard a version of this story being used that as we became adults, didn't flush with how we understood human beings to operate. So by that, I mean, for me, I was going to a Christian university in Oklahoma where we were required to go to chapel. And, uh, as part of one of those services, this text was preached on in a way that I recognized from my childhood, uh, where this person Hosea this prophet was meant to represent God. And so even just the way that that person then gets talked about from the pulpit oftentimes is like, he was probably a great father and had to be a fantastic husband because of course that's what he was like if he represents God in this allegorical story. And then conversely, the person of Gomer, um, almost takes on this mantle of like original sin, you know, the Freudian is she just, uh, sort of wanders around the world by her appetites. And, um, there's one specific point in the sermon where, uh, the, the person said the person preaching said that Gomer, um, left her, her children. The story says, the biblical story says she has that they have three kids together. She leaves her family and goes to sell her body for sex. And I remember for the first time as a growing human being going, wait a minute, that doesn't sound like, uh, the way a logical person operates. Like if you have a home in a marriage and three kids and you make the decision to leave all that, you probably have a series of reasons for that kind of decision. And so for me, that was the seed of just starting to, um, think and percolate on this idea of, well, how are we sanitizing this story and what are we losing by doing that? Uh, and that just began the long journey of wanting to take a look at this story, specifically the character of Gomer and think about what, what her life would have had to have been like in order for the decisions that scripture says she makes to have made sense. Uh, and I think Suzanne, you, you had a similar kind of desire to approach Gomer because of a
Speaker 5:Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about it this morning, Andrew, like what you said is I don't actually think growing. I mean, I grew up in the church. I don't remember hearing the story of Hosea really ever as it as a kid, it was really like in my late probably teens, early twenties, I was reading a book and it was sort of a retelling of that, um, of the Hosea stories. That's the first time I really remember understanding it or hearing about it. And that was the first seed that was planted in my mind of, okay, this is a really interesting story. Uh, but I, I wonder what this would look like if it was re-imagined in a modern day setting in a real authentic way with characters that are maybe like us or people we know, like, what would that look like? Because it wouldn't be PG and it would be hard and uncomfortable, but I think it would be important to tell. And that was sort of the first seed that was planted for me. And then years later, uh, Ryan, I had been friends for a long time and we both mutually, we told a mutual friend the same thing separately about us wanting to do this story. And so that's sort of how the whole thing got started is the two of us met at a coffee shop on a Saturday morning and said, let's, let's try it. Let's make this movie. And they gave each other a hug and a lot of meetings started and then we met April and that, and then the trio was formed.
Speaker 6:Yeah. I mean, I think, I think I'm similar to Suzanne. I don't, I maybe, I don't remember Jose of being like on the top of a list of sermons growing up. Um, but I do remember, you know, there, there are several other stories in the Bible where always feeling like, you know, the women kind of the women in the story kind of gets lost. And I remember, you know, sitting in church, listening to, you know, Jacob and Leah is one that comes to mind where I'm always just like, I should say Jacob and Rachel, cause it's always preached about Jacob and Rachel, nobody ever talks about Leah, you know? And so I've always had instances like that where I'm always kind of thinking about what about this woman over here that, you know, they just kind of left out of this story she's in there and we kind of read the line, but you know, we don't really talk about, so for me, uh, I met, uh, Ryan and Suzanne, um, actually right after I finished filming gin and was kind of in this space of, you know, doing films that, uh, reflect, you know, spirituality and that are looking at spirituality and faith in really interesting ways. And so for me reading this script was kind of in that same vein of, uh, of asking those questions about the women that we read about in the Bible. Um, so it was, you know, it was such a well-written script and, you know, the fact that it was coming from the perspective of Gomer was something that, um, I felt we hadn't seen before, um, and fit in my narrative of, of, of constantly asking these questions in my head.
Speaker 2:Three of you just talked about this concept of perspective. Uh, that was one of the things that really jumped out to me on a lighter note. I remember the last episode last season of the series arrested development was like six episodes. And every single one was told from a different character's perspective. And it was amazing how the same story from six different perspectives was six different stories. You know what I mean? We all understand that basically. Um, but to see it played out on film, uh, as what we saw here and, and I, you know, not to get too, too, uh, comprehensive about it, but you know, we're, as we're recording this, we're a day away from an election in a country that has been polarized beyond belief. Um, and I think one thing that we've lost the capacity to do as a nation is view the world from somebody else's perspective other than our own. And this movie really stands out to me that it, it is able to de take the biblical story like Hosea and flip it on its head. And the perspective that you guys came at this, with that you all came at this with, um, was one rather than from looking up from looking down from upon high your, in the muck of it, right. You're, you're, you're not, you're not, um, on a pedestal saying that you need to come up here to this sacred, Holy place, you're viewing the world and saying, this is the world down here in this secular messy place. Um, and so I don't know if you could comment a little bit about this idea that, that, that things happen in the real world, in this secular world. And we have to, we have to understand that and see things from all of those perspectives.
Speaker 6:First of all, it's awesome relief to know you love the movie. Um, it's always a little nerve wracking to come on these podcasts cause we, you know, we're not sure if we're just gonna find out that we're here so you can tell us what was wrong with it. Thank you for watching it. It's very meaningful to us. Um, yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head, as you were talking. It was reminded me of a Henry now and quote that I really love that now and said, um, I'm probably going to butcher this a little bit, but for the compassionate person, nothing human is alien.
Speaker 4:And I, when, when I think about, uh, Kate, the Gomer character in our film, one of the desires we had early on was to invite the audience into a compassionate position, um, when they, when they think about the Gomer character and Gomer as an archetype for ourselves or for other people in our lives. But I think it's very easy to talk specifically about trafficking or prostitution. It's very easy for people outside of that system to look in on it and judge it and sort of say like, you know, I think we might have a, uh, an innate picture of prostitution in kind of a Richard Gere, pretty woman, Julia Roberts sort of way. And we just expect people to stop doing a thing that they shouldn't do without understanding the on-ramp that people who are trafficked experience. Oftentimes they, um, their traffic tickets as miners, their kids, um, oftentimes poverty and substance abuse and sexual abuse are a part of their experience. And so when we understand that when you talk with organizations that work in trafficking and you kind of hear those stories, it completely transforms how you think about people who are experiencing a version of that kind of life. And I think that then transforms how we think even about the text, even how we think about scripture and what it means to us, um, how we think about, uh, subjects like love and identity and forgiveness and redemption. So, um, w for specifically for this story of Hosea, we do think that there's a meaning to be unpacked from the text, but also from the film when we're invited to see it from a different perspective. And I would love to just geek out and talk about arrested development for the rest of the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's great. Uh, you know, one of the premises of, of our podcast, we often quote Madeline Lingle. There is nothing so secular that it cannot be sacred. And I was really struck by a quote that I discovered, I think it was from me, Ryan, you say over time, you know, people in our most important stories, uh, slowly turn into what you call flat abstractions of a particular idea that a faith community wants to depict and they stopped being real people at that point. And you say the implicit danger then becomes we stopped seeing ourselves in them. And I think that's part of what is so powerful about seeing this through what you all have called the forgotten story or the forgotten female story in this. And thinking about Gomer, almost being depicted as more of a prop, which I think you all have talked about as well. I remember the great Phyllis Trible old Testament scholar who talked about, you know, the serpent, uh, in the Adam and Eve story, being a rhetorical advice to a re rhetorical device, rather to get to kind of the main point of the story. So when you're telling the story through Gomez point of view, uh, and getting at that subversive narrative, I'm just kind of curious in this might be a more basic question, but what drew each of you to Gomer story, uh, especially that again is, uh, David mentioned, it's sort of turning the story upside down a little bit on its head to kind of see through this, this raw humanity, this, this raw lens in a way that we, you know, we really don't get in Sunday school or don't get in this sanitized version of, of what, how the church tells the story. So what, what kind of drew each of you to that subversive point of view, uh, to, to really see this through Kate's eyes or through Gomorrah's eyes?
Speaker 6:Well, I feel like, I feel like for me, I mean, again, we talked about, you know, the fact that we don't get to hear this story. I mean, not only do we not hear Gomer story, like we often don't, I know I had never, even, I kind of glossed over the fact that she went back into a life, you know, like it was like, God say this, you know, prostitute, and then, you know, humanity would say, it's like, she went back, you know, what was that about? And I think that that was something, um, that struck me about the, about the script about the film is that, you know, to, to Ryan's point, you know, no one it's it's, it's just never that black and white that I just want to go back into this life, you know, that, you know, was potentially hurtful. Like nobody just makes that decision to just, just give up everything and go back. It's not that simple. Um, so I think for me, what drew me about this story was that w was really that piece of it. Um, you know, like I said, not only have we never heard her story, but that part w we not only have, we never heard her story, but even in the story that we do tell we kind of gloss over that part of her going back into that life. Um, and I was just, you know, I think so much of this movie is, is about what caused that decision and what was, you know, what happened as a result of that decision and so on and so forth. Um, and I just found that to be really, really interesting and fascinating and worth exploring. Yeah. And I think, I mean, this is really tough to do and to retell our story because we don't know her story. There's nothing in the, in this Hosanna story in the Bible, she doesn't speak. So we don't even have an opportunity to know what she was thinking. And like Ryan's talked about in April, I was like, this is a real person who, for some reason, they didn't give her an opportunity, whoever, you know, they didn't talk about what she was feeling and thinking. And it
Speaker 5:Seems like she was sort of was used as a prop or the way we retell it. She's often used as a prop. And so I was just interested, like, like April said earlier too, I mean, so much is told from the male point of view and the Bible, and there's so many male, um, stories, but it's like, there's a lot of females there too. We just don't hear their perspective. And I just thought, I think it would be really interesting neighbor already touched on this. And so to Ryan is like, what, why did she make the decisions that she made? Because this is a real person. And when we were making, or when we made the movie and we were doing like our first sort of rough screenings of the first cut, uh, in one of our screenings, uh, there was a little bit of a debate over sort of some of the decisions she makes because somebody felt like, well, I don't think that some that she wouldn't really do, like nobody would actually like do that. They would never really go back, you know, to the pump. And then we had someone else who was at the screening, who April, who was it, someone that dealt with? Um, it was a psychologist, right? Who works with women who were trafficked and she's like, no, this is exactly what would happen. And so I think that's interesting because we love to make assumptions about why people do the things they do in, unless we put ourselves in their place, we'll never really understand. And so that's what we were trying to do and what I was interested in, why I was drawn to the Gomer character.
Speaker 4:I was just going to say, uh, for me, there is an element, uh, of coming to the text that the exit Jesus of the text reminded me a little bit of that exercise of being an actor. The actors come to roles and are immediately interested in trying to put flesh on a role. So actors are asking questions like, does this person speak with an accent? Do they walk with a limp? And that reminded me of a, a Greek class that I had early in college, where I was for the first time introduced to the idea of the search for the historical Jesus. And this Greek professor said he was sort of inviting us to think about, uh, Christ as a human being who walked the dusty streets. And he said maybe Christ was balled. Maybe he walked with a limp. And that was just blew my mind because I knew that that was not possible based on lots of images I had seen in my Sunday school classes growing up. Right. Um, but it was it that was very formative to me. And I started wanting to approach each of these stories, wondering, uh, when you start to put flesh back on these people, how does it transform the way, not just that you think about them, but the way you think about the themes that we are supposed to be thinking about more broadly about the text, for example, specifically in this story, what is, uh, what does saving look like? What does salvation look like? It's very easy to read a text and sort of think that, you know, especially for me in the position I'm in, I know what this person being saved looks like. And I think for Gomer, for a person who is actually inside the experience, especially a painful one, someone stepping in and kind of a, you know, a superhero sort of way of being like, I'm here to save you with just the love of a good man, um, strikes false, like that is false for a person inside the space of that pain. Uh, so it really made me want to think about and hear what her story might've been like, which means, uh, to Suzanne's point, listening to the stories of actual women present day, um, who are, who are, or who have been in the midst of these experiences and hearing what their, their stories were like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was actually one of my questions. And you're already getting at that, but when you, I love the way you said that, how you put flesh on a character who, you know, so much, we don't know about her story, but I was kind of curious about what sort of homework or research that you had to do to build out Kate's character and you know, who did you talk to? How did you, uh, what did you find out through that process of really building out the humanity of her character, whether it's interviews or some of the things you already have alluded to?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I'm working with several organizations, especially here in Los Angeles who work in anti-trafficking space and hearing direct stories from women. Who've experienced this. And as I mentioned earlier, you start to hear through lines. I mean, it's important to say that, you know, this is a fictional depiction of a woman named Kate, and this is not at all to say, this is what all human trafficking situations are. Like. It's not, there's a whole broad experience, um, for people who have come through these kinds of, uh, traumas, but hearing this, hearing the stories of many women over a period of time, especially through those organizations, allowed us to sort of catch a lot of commonalities. And like I mentioned before, those are often that, um, it begins early, a really common version of this story is someone to say, I was 12, 13, 14. I didn't have a great home life. You know, um, I spent a lot of time say at the mall and an older guy, he was probably 18 or 19 showed interest in me. I remember one specific woman's story. She told a very, very clear depiction of like being in the food court and this guy coming up and being super sweet and just showing interest in her in a way that a man never had. And they just started dating. And over the course of time, the love and care and affection of that relationship became commodified, became commodified to gift giving and then became commodified to now, if you do other things for other people, that will be the, the, um, criteria by which I will continue to show you love and affection. And, um, when you hear someone telling that story and the, you know, the, the way that, um, sexual abuse and substance abuse and poverty get woven into that over a long period of time, uh, you, you realize like this, this is not someone waking up at the age of 18 or 20 some day, and just deciding to go down to the street corner. Like, that's just not how these stories
Speaker 5:Work. So hearing the commonality of the stories is really the main homework to being able to write a character like him.
Speaker 2:My background is in music and that's what my life has been dedicated to as an art form. And I've often said that I admire film and consider it built. Filmmaking is like the pinnacle of human artistic achievement because of the way it combines virtually every known form of art that humanity has, you know, from, from music to acting, to costume, to the visual components of cinematography, to storytelling. It's just so comprehensive and holistic, um, twofold here. One, I'm curious from a production standpoint, we have two, the two producers here. Um, what does that look like when you're creating a film combining all of these myriad of artistic elements in to within the movie? Um, you clearly highlighted the significance of human creativity and creative expression at the core of, of kind of all that is good, even within what we view as bad. The character Kate, um, is, uh, is an amateur photographer, perhaps more than that. And, uh, to me that was one of the really satisfying components of it. That's how you brought to life, the goodness in her soul from a, from a film perspective, but so sort of two aspects here from a production standpoint, what's it like to put all these things together and, and to from within the movie, you highlighting the significance of creative expression. Um, uh, what, why is that important?
Speaker 5:Uh, all of those elements together is a tornado. If you're, if you produce it's cause you like the craziness, like I actually miss production. I think I'm the only one that's like, I wish we could go back to production. Like I like a million things going on at once and having to make decisions. And it was, I mean, there was a lot of work and thought on the front end of that, you know, before you go into production, obviously, and your Ryan's the one who wrote this script. So he had all these things in mind and then you just producer's job is to put all those puzzle pieces together. So leading up to it, it's crazy and it's hectic, but it's a lot of fun to hire people who this is their, you know, for art production, this is their expertise. This person is like, this is what they're really good at. And to oversee all of those things. And Ryan was heavily involved in all of this with us. And, um, it was, it was honestly fun. It was, that was a fun part is seeing all those puzzle pieces come together. And then as far as your second question, I mean, you write what you know, and Ryan is an amateur photographer. That was his camera that she carries in the movie. Oh, cool.
Speaker 6:It was, uh, there's a lot of, uh, Ryan and Kate, so, um, but yeah, I mean, it was, it was just a lot of, this was so much fun, so much fun on when we got to actually be in production and get to that point. And then on the, uh, on the backend of the music or having Gungar score, the movie was just like the icing on the cake. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, to your point about the score, it definitely, um, took off once we, especially that, you know, without giving anything away, the final moment I'll say, um, was just, was really impactful. I mean, I feel like in terms of the pieces coming together, I, um, I really felt like there's, you know, we were doing, we're doing this film that has this kind of weight to it and like this heaviness to it, and, you know, all that Suzanne, that, that word is like such a perfect word of the tornado. Um, of just all of these elements, you know, sort of coming together and all of these, all of these elements kind of spiraling at the same time. I mean, I, I think about, you know, are just, you know, even the weight of our production, it was weird shooting in the middle of winter in Oklahoma, it was freezing cold. Well, it was, it was, it was burning pot the first day of production, but then the temperature belonged know plummeted, uh, down to like 30 degrees, you know, the next day. So there was a lot, you know, even just in the atmosphere of creating this film that I think, you know, just help contribute, um, in terms of those pieces coming together and having to work around all of those elements and, and figure it out and still keep the crew and still keep the cast, you know, excited and, and, um, comfortable, um, was, was another part of that, that element of producing the film, um, especially in light of what we were doing in light of the subject matter that we were, that we were trying to tackle
Speaker 4:When we think about intact inside the movie itself, um, you know, for me inviting people to bring, uh, the Imago DEI back to the Gomer character. So to think about the image of God inside the character of Kate, uh, I think of that as the act of creating that in as much as God is creator for us to be invited to the act of creating a, to have Kate do that. And for us to, as the audience to enjoy watching her create really helps, um, restore that in her as a character.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a character in the movie, Andrew, who's a curator of an art gallery. I fell in love with him. He was, he was great. And he's sort of a pseudo advocate for the goodness within Kate's, uh, spirit and soul and character. Cause, uh, he, he's the one who says, you know, you're actually really good at this. And, uh, th those parts of the movie were really, it helped for me balanced the whole experience out.
Speaker 5:He's one of the only care, one of the only men who don't commodify or try to change her, right. He's such an important character. And he was our moments of levity in the movie, which you definitely need in this kind of movie. And I just, he's a friend of ours. So it was really fun to see him come and play this character because that's not really what he's like, obviously he's not Andrew, but it's just so much fun. And then he and Camille, uh, so the Kate and Andrew character, they just, they didn't meet until, I mean, like minutes before they were shooting their scene and they just immediately had this sort of connection and charisma together. So it was, it was cool to get to see them shoot those scenes.
Speaker 2:That's great. Beautifully said. I D I think, uh, David and I have sort of a similar question about this, but, you know, one of the things that was just so striking to me and so impressive is that when you take such a core biblical story, like the Hosea story, and you have re-imagined it and recast it the way you have, you know, to do that in a way that isn't sort of, uh, uh, you know, I'm a pastor, so I can say this like Christian malarkey, right. I read that you're like you said, trying to proselytize at H how do you create a film that is so simple, you know, so centrally, biblical in terms of the core narrative and do that in a way that is so beautifully and radically, uh, human. And to me, you've done that. And it's sort of made me ask what is a Christian film anyway. And I think David, you have a little bit more of a nuanced way to ask that again, being with a background in music, I thinking like the artist Sufi on Stephens is, um, without question, he's a professor Christian, his faith in narratives of theology and Christianity are all over his music, but he's not playing at the Colorado Rockies faith day, right. He's not considered really by almost anyone to be a Christian artist. And yet all of this stuff is so omnipresent in its impact and to the listener. And I kind of felt a similar way with how you guys, how you all, I'm sorry. I keep saying you guys, how you all did this movie and, and I was impressed. And wondering if that was intentional front and center for your goals, um, that it would, that it would come across to everyone rather than just a select group of people.
Speaker 4:Yup. Well, I think, um, it's very important to point out that, you know, with movies, there are so many people involved. Um, and, uh, my, my particular worldview, my, and my faith, um, are not indicative at all of other peoples involved in the film. There are lots of people who were intricate parts of this movie that don't consider themselves people of faith. And for me to kind of make the movie be a thing for me, wouldn't be faithful to their participation in it. So I think it's really important to recognize that element first. Um, and then, you know, additionally, I think, uh, when we take a story and control it in order to do something for us, it probably is not a good story at that point. Um, and it's really easy for audiences to assume that the goal of the movie is to affirm their beliefs or to proselytize people, right. And, uh, we are not interested in that. And we, what we are interested in is a story that creates space and a good story is just entering into a space where, uh, in order for, for a moment of grace. And I don't mean that specifically in a Christian way, uh, a moment of grace redemption to happen there, there has to be an experience of loss of that grace of pain of need. And the storyteller has to be able to invite the audience to walk through that, that need, and that experience of pain in order to eventually arrive at the place of grace and redemption. And so I think if, if that's just the goal of what a story is doing, that it doesn't mean that it's it. I believe that it, God is in that space, but it doesn't mean that it's a Christian movie, that terminology by the way, is really problematic. Um, there's been some great writing on, uh, one of my favorite articles is written by a writer named Melissa Wilkinson, where she talks about a movie cannot take the Eucharist, therefore it can not be Christian. Uh, and it's, it's really problematic for us to call. Um, I understand why we do it. It's a functional term. Why we say faith-based films, why we say Christian films, but a film can not be Christian. If film cannot believe in Christ, the film can tell a story and then it can be a way for us to talk about God in the world. Um, I'm going a lot again, I know in April you have some, um, you've thought about this a lot, especially in terms of gin, right?
Speaker 6:I've always kind of found our sort of definition of Christian or what's like called the Christian film. And I've, I've wrestled with that for a long time and have found it to be, you know, somewhat problematic. And, you know, maybe some of that is because early on, you know, I, I grew up in church, but I grew up in a church that was very, um, you know, uh, I'll put it this way. Like, I didn't really hear of that term Christian film until I was much older. And that's just, wasn't the lens that the faith tradition that I grew up in that just wasn't a lens that we saw things through. Um, we saw art as something that was, um, you know, healing and for a community. And what that meant was that the community, you know, helps define how we, you know, interpret and, um, embrace a piece of art. Um, and then, you know, through that looking at, where do we see, sorry, where do we see God in? That was kind of a different approach? I think. Um, so I, yeah, I've always kind of found that definition that I should say the standard, you know, industry definition of Christian film to be problematic. Um, especially because, you know, most times, uh, Christian film is also synonymous with family friendly when, you know, and, and there's, there's that whole aspect of it too. And again, when I read the Bible, I'm like, there's some hardcore stuff going on the Bible, like all of this can't be family-friendly in that sense, you know,
Speaker 4:We should probably point out that Jose is rated R that's a good point. Like stories like Noah, by the way, you guys, a lot of people died in that story. Oh my goodness. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6:There, there, you know, some horrific things happened. Um, and I think when we, you know, I could go on and on as well, but I think when we, when we start to go us over that, we lose the very point of the gospel. You know, it's like Jesus comes to us in the midst of some very nasty, terrible thing. And Jesus comes in the midst of that and says, I've come to bring you light life, you know, and that more abundantly. And so it's like, when we miss the, like the dirt, then it's like the, then, then the point of God and of Jesus and the light, it does it like what you don't get the same impact on that. I don't think so. The, that whole idea of Christian film, um, you know, part of the reason why I was into this project was because we were kind of looking to sort of step away from that.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Cause it's like the, the inspiration came from this narrative, but it was never meant to be a Christian film, you know, it was meant to be, and I think it is a movie for the masses for bigger, for a bigger audience. And that was in your question. So good David, because it was hard through the years of like, how do we walk this line? Because this is going to, if we call it Hosea, people are going to have an idea of what this movie is about, but it's probably not that. So do we call it something out and it'll be just like, it was, this was really, really tough. And in the end, I'm super proud of what we have and these kinds of conversations that we're we're having. But, um, but yeah, I just that the title
Speaker 4:A lot that was a long road of us really work, struggling with the title for exactly Suzanne's point. The, the risk is that you call it Jose and people think they know what it is. Um, but at least they understand the connection, the biblical story. But if you don't call it Hosea, because of the way we told the story, there might be a lot of people who just watch it and never understand the biblical connection. And we think if that happens, then there's a layer to the conversation of the film that they would be missing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Andrew and I had that exact conversation, um, that I think most people wouldn't know that, and it might make it a little bit more difficult to tow the line, but it adds a layer of complexity and depth to the story and to the film that's just really admirable. And I think everything that you have been saying, especially in this last little bit here is what, what, what cause us to create this, this podcast called hyphenated life, trying to break down some of those expectations and barriers and, and have the nimbleness and, and empathy to see the world from another perspective. And I want to thank you each Suzanne, Avril, Ryan, um, producers and writer, director of the film, Hosea for being on hyphenated life with us today. I know we're just about to our time here. So, um, I wanted to see if you could go ahead and, and tell our listeners the best way that they can watch your film. Hosea
Speaker 4:Jose is available on iTunes, Apple TV, Amazon prime video, or Google play. You can rent or buy the movie on those four platforms. And we also have a discussion guide, which is a companion piece to the movie that is amazing. We take a deeper dive into our themes. So I highly recommend you check out. Our website has afm.com,
Speaker 2:But everybody listening, watch the Hosea film, watch it with friends and Ryan and Suzanne and Avril. Thank you again for joining us for hyphenated life today. What an extraordinary movie you've made. And, uh, we are all more fully human because of it. And, uh, we're so grateful for your artistic savvy and sharing your time with us today. Thank you.
Speaker 4:Oh my goodness. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3:[inaudible]
Speaker 2:If is a production of pine street church in Boulder, Colorado hosted by Andrew Doherty and David longed. You,
Speaker 3:The podcast is produced by Phil Norman and executive producer, Alexi Molden special thanks to our guests today and the LEL Hill trust of[inaudible].
Speaker 7:This episode is brought to you by the taco wagon. Maybe we can get free breakfast for you guys. If you're a burrito and you were starving, would you eat yourself? Uh, don't jerk me around on this. It's a simple yes or no question.