Hyphenated Life

Chaplaincy Reimagined

March 11, 2021 Hosted by Andrew Daugherty & David L'Hommedieu Season 2 Episode 5
Hyphenated Life
Chaplaincy Reimagined
Show Notes Transcript

Jamie Beachy's interreligious background as a former Christian minister with a deep interest in Buddhism and earth-based indigenous practices emerged through engaging the wisdom of care seekers, colleagues, students, and non-human relatives.  As the current director of  Naropa University's Center for Contemplative Chaplaincy Jamie teaches other care givers and healers how to care for themselves in this potentially exhausting path of work.

Among other topics, Andrew and David talk about how Jamie got to where she is in her life and career, as well as her work in more expansive understandings of Chaplaincy, care giving, and personal healing around trauma related wellness issues. Jamie is on the front lines of the up and coming science based healing movement centered around the use of psychedelics.

Speaker 1:

Welcome everybody to hyphenated life. We're joined today by Dr. Jamie beachy. She holds a PhD in religious studies from the university of Denver and the aisle of school of theology and the masters of divinity from Pacific school of religion in Berkeley, California. She has worked as a chaplain. She is a certified spiritual care educator and ethics consultant in diverse contexts, including academic medication centers, trauma, hospitals, hospice, and palliative care settings. She has an inter religious background as a former Christian minister with a deep interest in Buddhism and earth based indigenous practices that emerged through engaging the wisdom of care seekers, colleagues, students, and what she calls non-human relatives. Uh, she directs the Naropa center for contemplative chaplaincy, and, uh, she is also doing some pretty fascinating trauma and healing work, uh, as a sub investigator. And co-therapists for the maps sponsored phase three MTMA assisted therapy research study in Boulder, Colorado. For those of you who don't know what maps stands for, that is multidisciplinary association for psychedelic studies. We're going to be talking about her own journey today, uh, both personally and professionally vocationally and the work that she is doing today here in Boulder, Colorado at Naropa, Jamie beachy, welcome to hyphenated life underfilled to be with you. So, uh, I would love to start here today, and that is just, uh, I probably use the word curious too much, David, but I am curious about Jamie, what your religious and spiritual upbringing was like, what can you share about that with our listeners today?

Speaker 2:

So I grew up in Denver and was raised in the Mennonite tradition, which, um, is a pretty traditional denomination within the Christian tradition and the focus. There was a lot of focus in our community on work and service. So I'm grateful for that opportunity to really understand myself as a person of service in the world. I also really appreciate the music, you know, that the Mennonite church offers to the world. And those are some of the things that I remember most fondly,

Speaker 1:

Well, Jamie, um, you know, our podcast premise, and we talk about this in a lot of episodes, but a big premise is to bring together the so-called, um, secular and sacred spheres. Um, and one of our go-to, uh, quotes about that as Madeline Lingle, the wrinkle in time author, who said there is nothing so secular that it cannot be sacred. What would you say about this, uh, binary and how it has contributed or not to, and your experience or expert opinion to, you know, religion being abstracted or even devalued in public discourse in popular culture. So this whole secular sacred sphere, what, what do you think about, about that premise?

Speaker 2:

Well, as a chaplain, I've always been a person who represents a religious tradition. You know, for many years, the Christian tradition was I was ordained in the United church of Christ. And so in chaplaincy, we really bring the insights from our traditions into secular contexts. And so this question is really important for chaplaincy and how I would maybe approach it is to say that, you know, on the publics, in the public sphere, it's important to, I think, value secular engagement and secular discourse because people are coming from multiple religious perspectives and the separation of church and state, you know, is actually something that is really foundational to the traditional Mennonite tradition, you know, church and the Anabaptists. The way that I grew up was very much, um, you know, that they should be separate in the public sphere, but then when it comes to, to private practice and the way that we live in the world, um, I really don't see too much of a division between, I would perhaps, um, reiterate what Madeline Lingle is saying, that there, there really isn't, um, a clear distinction in my mind between the secular and the sacred and the way that I live my life. But when I encounter people that have different kinds of commitments, then it's important that, you know, and when it comes to our, our, our common laws and the way that we do things publicly as a community, then it would be important to have a secular spaces where multiple perspectives can really be, be appreciated and, and have space to, to, um, express, express their insights and values and commitments. And so I, um, but for me personally, really, I think over, over my lifetime, I've really shifted my view from one of, um, you know, religion as a place that I go to experience the divine in a community space with other people like at church toward just how I live my daily life and the, from when I wake up in the morning, you know, am I approaching my life as a sacred gift? And do I express my beliefs and values and everything that I do, or is it just something that's a set apart time in my life? And that, that distance between the, um, set apart in the way that I live has become smaller, the older that I've, that I, that I've become in my practice and in my faith. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. That's really interesting. Um, I think of, I don't want to get too controversial with the statement here. There is a foundational purpose of the church or Christianity as a religion, for example, to bring the church, to bring, you know, Christ's teachings to the world, like going kind of inside out. Um, and one thing we, we kind of bump into around here and especially in this podcast with topics that we get to, is this idea of reversing that flow of kind of incorporating the outside in, um, I think historically when you start tracing back to some of like the divides we're experiencing today in our country, a lot of it begins with, um, uh, uh, Christian movement to become more insular because of a fear of the outside or so-called secular world, um, in, in seeing how those, those, uh, sort of divisions have led to conflict and discord on a cultural level on a societal level is, uh, it's been interesting. I don't, I don't know, you know, one thing we don't profess here at hyphenated life is to have, you know, figured it out in how to solve all those problems. So I don't know if you have any thoughts about, um, you know, historically, uh, that, that shift, where we pulled those things apart, um, completely. And also, I, I just want to comment, I do, I love your, um, recognition that it is important to provide opportunity for all, you know, perspectives and people. So to create a place where someone can exist in a, you know, a secular space is important too,

Speaker 2:

Right. And I've really become to believe that. I mean, it's unfortunate that there's so much fear in the culture right now, fear of difference and fear of someone who might be other than myself and their values and beliefs. Um, I think there is a moment for many of us who are working in religion or who are religious practitioners, or have a deep religious commitment where we recognize that just to go deeper into our own faith provides that kind of security and stability that we need, and it's done it no longer becomes necessary to focus externally as much on what might be around me that feels threatening or feels like it might destabilize me. So like a tree, you know, really allowing our roots to run deep and to connect with the deeper insights from our traditions, the deep practices, the, um, in the Christian tradition, you know, uh, as a deep commitment to the, um, the path of Christ and the insights from the tradition that really orient and guide us in a way that we don't have, then we don't have to be afraid of, of someone coming into our, our, um, space or coming into a conversation with something that that's radically different from what I might believe and really in Christianity, it's the residing in that heart of love that divine love, and that really welcomes everyone and everything in a sense, you know, not that we always have to agree with behaviors that we're experiencing in other people, or we can also recognize that sometimes harm is done when certain beliefs are, are not, um, beneficial for the community or for, for, for, uh, ourselves or our families, but to really root down and, and reside deeply in that heart of love, then then fear kind of dissipates. And then suddenly this threat from the outside feels less of, um, of a danger to our wellbeing.

Speaker 1:

Well, Jamie speaking of trees, excuse me, and roots. I was so taken by the way. Well, first of all, that you're a former Christian minister. I'm very interested in knowing more about that, but you've also talked about how that journey from, uh, and I'm filling in a couple of blanks here, I guess, but, um, that journey from, you know, being a former Christian minister to your interest in Buddhism and how, um, your non-human relatives influenced and shaped you along that path, could you tell us a little bit about that journey for you?

Speaker 2:

Sure. So for many years, as I said, I was ordained in the United church of Christ and really appreciated that community and felt very, um, supported and inspired by that experience. And over time, I developed a deep commitment to Buddhism, which has to do with, um, connecting more to practice and meditation practice in particular, which for me really, um, provided kind of a balance to this way. I was raised to focus so much on service and so much on doing things in the world. And, um, so my grandfather bequested, or, you know, handed down his, his Bible to my father and the inscription, my grandfather was Amish. And then the F the family eventually became Mennonite, became a little bit more, um, engaged with the world. And, but in this Bible, he, he wrote, you know, a quote in there that we will do the works of, of him that sent me until we can work no more. And you all might know where that is located in the Bible. It's not coming to me right now, but this idea that you just work, work, work until, you know, there's no more time to work. The sun goes down and you rest and you get up and you, and then you go at it again. And for me, um, the Buddhist practice really provided an opportunity just to rest and to be present with myself and to root down, as I'm saying, and, you know, in this presence of love and compassion, and just, Intercon recognizing my interconnectedness with, with all other creatures and, and other people. And so Buddhism really became my path for some time. And, and then, um, also the insights from, from my chaplaincy work, just engaging other religious traditions. I started to recognize myself as more inter-religious and not so much, um, uh, Christian in a sense. So some people might refer to that as post-Christian, or, you know, I'll always be Christian. I mean, I'm Christian by, um, ethnicity really. I mean, the Mennonites are almost an ethnicity as much as they are a, um, a spiritual community or religious community. And I always, I will always practice in the Christian tradition, but there came a point where I no longer felt like participating in a congregation was really my path. And in the UCC, you know, to be ordained, there's really a lot of responsibility around congregational commitment and participation. And so I've stepped away from my ordination, but I still really understand myself to be Christian. And, and inter-religious in that. I also practice in the Buddhist tradition and in some, um, have spent time with some indigenous teachers as well. So I guess the answer is the first party for your question. I can try to take on the second part, if you like about the earth-based.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I would love to hear more about that. I mean, some of it, and then, um, I'm getting in over my head here a little bit, but, you know, one of the things that shaped me on my own journey is Celtic Christianity and its connection with the earth and, you know, being a Christian pastor, um, sort of realizing that Christ and creation are symbiotic and they go together they're, they don't have to be opposed to one another. It was just sort of this Eureka moment for me, eight or nine years ago. And, you know, over the last three and a half years here at pine street church, some of that, uh, sort of Celtic DNA or Celtic Christian DNA has seeped into our own congregational identity. Uh, I'm not, not fully responsible for that. You know, David helped me out here, but, uh, you know, we have a Celtic cross is spiritual symbol and, uh, what we really do in our worship experience and our worship practice together as a community really connects with a lot of that theology, that sort of minority report of Christianity, not the dominant Roman narrative. And so that's led us into some interesting directions, I think, over the last few years. So yes, I would love to hear, uh, about your kind of indigenous, uh, practice and earth based religious experience. And if, if you can maybe even connect that to the Celtic Christianity, if, if that's relevant in your own experience.

Speaker 2:

Sure. So I think that many of us in this time and place who descend from Europe are looking for ways to reconnect with our original, um, spiritual heritage, I guess our ancestry. I I've had many of these conversations just over the last few weeks, even. And I participate in a group of women that are, some of them are learning, um, Gaelic songs and really trying to recover some of the lost, um, wisdom of our own ancestral traditions. Um, and I think that many of us have entry into that, that world through experiencing, um, some of the insights and practices of the surviving indigenous communities in North America and South America. And I have such deep gratitude for some of the teachers and communities that I've spent time with, um, in sweat lodges and, and learning some traditional practices from teachers that have been willing to offer that and really see that as kind of an entry into my own, you know, motivation and understanding of what, what I might be able to connect to in my Celtic tradition is one side of my family is Celtic and, and also, um, you know, descends from Ireland and Scotland. And, um, yeah, I think that there is a lot of, um, motivation these days for people to recognize that at some point we were really displaced from some of those insights about how to be in right relationship with the earth. You know, most of us from Europe were, were fleeing from something and often, um, there was trauma involved in how that happened through colonization and through displacement. I was just thinking recently and reading recently about Ireland and how, um, tragic it is that really, if you, if you look at pictures of Ireland, I haven't been there myself. I'd love to go, go visit at some point, that's a goal of pilgrimage coming up in

Speaker 1:

2022. You can join us.

Speaker 2:

Well, I may just do that, but, you know, there's, it's tragic that in Ireland you look at photos and there are these rolling green Hills, but in one of this, these, um, I've read a book recently about, about the history of Ireland and, and really Ireland used to be covered in forests. You know, there were dense forests and now there's less than 1% in my understanding of the old growth forest left and in Ireland. And that was one of the strategies of colonization was to clear, cut everything and send it back to, you know, the, the, um, wherever, I guess it was great Britain and or wherever the wood was going, you know, to support, support the colonial efforts. And, um, and then that really kind of broke the spirit of the people in my understanding. And that's often how colonization works in, in, um, kind of stepping in and, um, and occupying, you know, lands that were previously really held by, by people that had deep spiritual practices and spiritual communities and deep relationship to the earth. And so for, for myself, as a, as a European American who, you know, didn't grow up with any, any conversations about Celtic spirituality or I'm sure there were things that, you know, like herbalism was sort of in my family gardening. And I'm recognizing that, that probably, you know, comes from this ancestral lineage and in ways that I wasn't aware of as a child. And so trying to recover that is, it feels a little bit daunting at times, but there's such beautiful opportunity to, to just begin reading and exploring and, and learning about our own heritage and how that can help us repair this time that we're in of, um, really broken relationship with the natural world that is so evident in, you know, climate change and all of the other problems that we're facing during this time that, that we're living through

Speaker 1:

Beautifully said, I, um, I might be on a little side tangent here, but, um, I also was kind of curious too about, you know, when you think about Christianity and Buddhism, I know that, uh, we're in Boulder, Colorado, even in our own congregation, we have some beautiful humans who practice Buddhism and yet find a home here at pine street church in Boulder. I wondered kind of what you would say about Christianity and Buddhism and you know, what they have at sort of a basic level. What do the two traditions have to learn from each other? And, and I guess I'm probably inferring a little bit, uh, here with this related question of are the Buddha and the Christ complimentary. I was kind of thinking about, um, I believe it was living Buddha, living Christ, tech, not hon. I think that was the title of it many years ago. I was just so fascinated and taken with that book, but could you say a little bit about, uh, of your own experience and wisdom around Christianity and Buddhism and how the two could really benefit from one another and the wisdom that, that both traditions have to teach each other?

Speaker 2:

Sure. So I can really only speak from my own experience. You know, there are many different manifestations of Christianity and Buddhism, and some of them I'm familiar with and other, other, um, other parts of the traditions that I'm less familiar with, but in my own experiences, as I was saying, the opportunity to really, um, move inward with Buddhist practice and explore, um, self-compassion and the importance of presence, and really contemplative deep contemplative practice guided in, you know, if you're in a room I've been on a few retreats and you're in a room of people and they're all practicing together in silence, and just the opportunity to, to allow myself to settle down and to connect with, um, this feeling of interdependence that I belong to something so much larger than myself and this developing these insights and practices that Buddhism is so, so powerfully, um, invites, you know, us to really feel the ways that our compassion can connect us to everything and all human beings everywhere and all beings and all, every part of nature is it was such a beautiful opportunity for me growing up in a tradition that was more focused on verbal prayers and community worship. And there was silence, you know, for sure at times it wasn't that, um, there weren't some really sagely, you know, saintly kind of silent, um, why souls in that tradition, but I think Buddhism has a particular, uh, technology almost for, and some people really consider Buddhism to be more of a science than a religion. It's really not a religion in the same way that Christianity is. And so it's accessible to anyone who wants to practice you, you know, you get your meditation app and you sit down and you, you, you can do it really from any religious or cultural commitment, um, unless there's a taboo against that for some reason. And so that invitation to really explore the inner world, I think, is, is what Buddhism may have to offer Christianity. Although, you know, I, I, I know that Christ's, um, time in the desert and the desert fathers, I think would share some similarities with, with Buddhist practice practitioners and practices. Um, and then as far as what Christianity might have to offer Buddhism, you know, I'm not, I'm not sure how to answer that other than I think some people really appreciate the communal worship and the opportunity for music and the public expression of song and shared, um, aspirations and, you know, not everyone feels that sense of community and connection, maybe in a, a song house where there's mostly silent meditation, some teachings, and not as much opportunity for the, um, you know, more artistic expression of faith. I suppose. I think that a lot of people appreciate both opportunities, but Jesus and the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Buddha, as you say, are, are certainly very, very similar in a lot of ways. And I would say that in, in all of the worlds, um, traditions that have really stood the test of time and have integrity, there's it always comes back to this heart of compassion and love, love for self, for the other, for the, the natural world for, um, you know, just generating this love into the world. That's so healing and, um, transformative and really puts us in the, um, this relationship to others that makes us thrive as a human community, regardless of which tradition we might be becoming from

Speaker 3:

Jamie earlier, you mentioned, uh, your, your experience and journey through chaplaincy play has played a major role in the diversity of your spiritual Allity spirituality, theological worldview. Um, and you are the director of Naropa center for contemplative chaplaincy. And so a couple things, one, Andrew and I were having a conversation before trying to like, kind of Def define what chaplaincy is, what makes a chaplain different from a pastor or, or, uh, things like that. So one, could you tell us what chaplaincy is and to, um, this, this idea of contemplative chaplaincy in the work that you're doing there at Naropa? And tell us a bit about that.

Speaker 2:

Well, this question of what is chaplaincy is actually something that the field of professional chaplaincy is really considering these days as the boundaries of, um, traditional chaplaincy are expanding and, and really there's a lot of, of expansion going on in the field right now. So I could give you my answer and it might be different from the answer you would hear elsewhere. Like if you're asking what is a pastor, you might also have multiple, um, answers, iterations coming towards you on that, that as well. Um, so I would say that chaplaincy traditionally has to do with, um, those who offer spiritual or pastoral care out in secular settings, or sometimes religious communities, but are identified as people that are able to respond well to crisis and transition, including death and dying, dying. And times when, you know, people are maybe really destabilized or there's traumas or other kinds of challenges that people face. And, um, so functional chaplaincy is really mostly takes place in healthcare settings these days in hospitals and hospices, but here at Naropa. So the center for contemplative chaplaincy has a few different commitments that we are exploring. And one is this deep, um, contemplative practice, this orientation towards deep contemplative practice, so that we are attending to our own and wellbeing. And as we are going into these spaces of crisis through contemplative practice, either meditation or in Christianity, we have folks that are committed to centering prayer, or, you know, in, in all of the traditions that, uh, chaplains might represent, there are deep contemplative practices that we are working to integrate into our practice of chaplaincy, so that when you're approaching, you know, the emergency room and maybe there's a death or a crisis, that's happened to be able to have that resource of contemplation before you go into the space and to develop, develop it well enough. So that in that space, you're really cultivating this open-hearted generous sense of wellbeing. That is, is well practiced and well honed so that when you go home at the end of the day, you know, especially during the pandemic, this is really important for chaplains and other, other healthcare folks these days. So that at the end of the day, you're, you're still well and well-supported, and not going home, you know, with burnout and yeah, moral distress and other forms of, um, just exhaustion. And so the contemplative part of, of what we're doing is, is really taking seriously contemplative insights and weaving them all through the curriculum. And, and then the master of divinity program here at Neurobic. But, you know, they get the deeper, the students have of the deeper Buddhist practice and, and training, but our, um, students are from many religious backgrounds and traditions. And so they're learning how to be really, um, stable, reliable, generous, you know, available chaplains to all of these situations, as things seem to be intensifying in the world in certain ways with the crises that we're facing. Um, and we are also really exploring the boundaries of chaplaincy. So what chaplaincy can mean in the world. So we have an eco chaplaincy internship that's developing that has to do with healing, the relationship between people in the land and doing some community grief rituals that, um, internship position has, um, it's a creative, creative opportunity to explore healing this relationship between the human and the non-human and that, because that is the nature of the crisis we're in, we see chaplains as having something particular to offer into that, that space. And then other opportunities like movement chaplaincy. We had a chaplain who was assigned to the ice detention center and the, um, sanctuary movement. And so she would take care of people that are in sanctuary in Boulder and Denver, and then there's the people in the detention. And so there's a lot of opportunities for chaplaincy to, um, move out into the world more where the, these situations of crisis and, and transition are happening and out of the institutions a bit. And that's what we're exploring it at Naropa with our contemplative approach to, to this work. So that we're, we're healthy, you know, and well, as we're, as we're doing it as, and as we're recovering from some of the things that we experience

Speaker 1:

As you talk, that is really fascinating and really a much more expansive understanding of chaplaincy David than what we were just kind of riffing off of before we hopped on with you, Jamie. But I I'm really fascinated in, and I think it's a fascinating direction that you're taking as you expand, um, the notion of chaplaincy and even getting into other ways of healing traumas. You've talked a little bit about, or have read a little bit about, uh, you know, the emotional damage, the psychological damage caused by sexual assault or war, um, crime, violent crime, or their traumas. And you have, uh, done some study and research around whether M D M a assisted therapy can help heal some of those traumas. Could you tell us more about what you're learning in this realm and what some of your own research is leading you to around, uh, some of these other traumas and, and therapies that can help with that?

Speaker 2:

Sure. So my path with psychedelic therapies began with my own healing journey. So after having worked as a chaplain for many years, I experienced myself, I experienced burnout, and this was maybe 10 years ago, I was struggling with, um, chaplaincy can be really intense because of the situations that we are facing. And healthcare is a pretty stressful environment, you know, to work these days, like many of the environments that people are working every day and working long hours. And, and so I decided for myself that I would try to heal, I also had, was diagnosed with a really low grade cancer, which fortunately it was easy to treat, but it was really a wake up call for me around how am I living my life and what do I need to do to heal some of this, um, overwork. And, and so I went down to Peru and I experienced an Iowasca ceremony because I knew that people were having experiences of, of healing and, and being able to do some deep, um, some deeper work than is possible in traditional therapeutic context sometimes. And so I went down to Peru and I experienced a lot of healing there. And really one of the messages I received that was so powerful for me was that this, um, beliefs that I was carrying about scarcity, that there's not enough, you know, there's not enough for me that I have to work harder than everyone else, and really just have every credential and degree. And that, that, you know, that, that would ensure my wellbeing in the world. That that message was really not serving me well. And in the ceremony, I experienced this, um, kind of just sickness in my body. I could feel it in myself, in my body, like the implication of this belief, I can feel how, you know, uncomfortable and just how it was making me sick. And so that I was able to, um, to heal from, you know, make a commitment to try living in a very different way. And that is, um, a lot of why I chose Buddhist meditation as one of the ways to, to really, um, recover from that always doing in the world. And, and then recognizing these, these, um, uh, ancestral messages that come through around scarcity that many of us have that, you know, there's not enough, or maybe, you know, some generations ago there was a famine or some kind of something in this message is passed down through the family. And so healing some of that as well, and moving toward just a more healthy way of being in the world. And so that's how I ended up, um, eventually being part of this MTMA therapy trial in Boulder, which is an FDA study, and we're using, um, you know, MDME assisted therapy to treat people with PTSD who have really, a lot of them have really tried, tried many other methods for healing from their traumas and have really not found relief. And in this, in the FDA studies in those phase two, we found that 67% of people that received MTMA in the trial a year after they received the therapy, they no longer report it PTSD. And so what that means is that having a more embodied, um, S sometimes mystical, but not always, but a really transformative experience where in each of these medicines, MTMA, Iowasca, you know, siliciden, they each have their own way of working with people and therapies that support that work, that get more at the root of the root causes of these illnesses and, and mental illnesses and Tron PTSD responses, so that we can sort of go to the root of it and deal with the source and begin this path of healing. And it's a complicated conversation because they each are, are so unique in their own way. But I have, um, interest in all of these paths, I suppose, and unfortunate to be able to be able to be on a, on a, um, a research study here in Boulder, that is a part of this, this beautiful movement toward helping people heal from, from traumas. You know, that sometimes are multiple, you know, go over multiple generations or patterns that are really hard to shift otherwise. Well, I'm so glad

Speaker 1:

That that your own personal journey of healing has led you to this research and this kind of cutting edge research, uh, to my ears. Um, I, I want to a couple of quick things as we head to a close one, is I, is it, how do you pronounce that word for those who aren't familiar with Iowasca retreats or, or practices, could you say a little bit what that ceremony entails or what it could, what it, what it could look like for people, uh, who are looking for some deep healing in their own lives?

Speaker 2:

Right. Well, it's important to be very, um, you know, discerning about places that you might, um, that you might go for an experience like that. Um, just like any really deep spiritual and, um, therapeutic experience you'd want to be really, really careful in discerning. So I would maybe direct you to chacruna is a wonderful place to kind of plug into what might be happening in communities that are understood as ethical and not exploiting the indigenous communities, where these, these ceremonies are taking place, or maybe maps, you know, connecting with the maps website, and you can become a member of maps and receive information about clinicians that are really advocating for these, these therapies. Um, but the ceremonies are, it's really hard to describe, you know, there's depends on which, which, um, uh, ceremonial context you, there are Iowasca ceremonies in various cultural contexts in the Peruvian context that I experienced with the Shapebos, um, healers, there was, um, you know, a lot of music and singing. So they're healing songs that are sung sung to people that are in search of healing and traditionally, um, the, they call them, you know, Pasa heroes, the, um, the people that are visiting the center for healing traditionally would wouldn't actually ingest any Iowasca, maybe just, uh, a bit to connect with it. But, um, these days there's opportunity to either experience the Iowasca yourself or just to sit and receive the healing and these beautiful songs that come from plant medicine, traditions, the Shapebos healers learn from the plants, how to heal people. And then they partner with the, the psychedelic, um, I will the medicines, and really try to work in the energetic field of the person who's, who's sick and this kind of message that I received about, you know, how, uh, uh, uh, uh, mental belief is impacting the, my body, you know, as something I think that people commonly experience and I would ask is also, uh, a purgative. And so, you know, that can be difficult for people if you're not comfortable like vomiting or the vomiting is common and shaking or crying, or there's the sense of like the medicine going into your body and then releasing toxic influences and things that are impeding, you know, health and wellbeing. But they're these a lot of the practitioners use many other medicines as well, many plant medicines, and Iowasca is one of the healing modalities, but there are many ways that people find healing for ancestral, you know, traumatic patterns that move through ancestral lineages, um, for beliefs that are not supporting us, including how we might be harming others and illnesses in our bodies. They're like the, they're like the surgeons of the, um, of the Amazon, you know, and they, they're, they're very sophisticated in what they do. So I hesitate to even try to represent it in just a few comments, you know?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I, I think, um, I remember that the, I own a healing prayer going back to Celtic, uh, spirituality quickly. We use a lot, uh, and use a lot in pastoral care practice with people going to surgeries. But, uh, and by the way, the, I own a healing prayer. I love this prayer. I was in Iona when, uh, my first night in Scotland ever, I've spent in the hospital and the next and the next day, uh, I got to Iona and it happened to be, uh, the serve, the, the healing service of the week and the Iona community at the Abbey. And they pray this beautiful prayer with people from around the world. And you get in a circle with 10 people and you kneel down and they prayer that, you know, everybody's says this prayer, and it's a spirit of the living, God present with us now, inter you body mind, and spirit and heal. You have all that harms you. And it was just such a powerful, uh, just a symmetrical moment of my life going through this kind of deep medical experience, then showing up at Iona the next day, and this is all happening. But one of the things I think about certainly in Western Christianity and I run into this and bump into this a lot in my own kind of personal journey is we're so word-based right. And how far can words really take us? And so what you're describing is this kind of deep holistic, uh, even though you talked about singing being part of the healing, there is a kind of full bodied experience of that, that I think at least in my corner of the vineyard in Christianity is really missing is how do we, how do we find that full bodied healing that people are so deeply longing for when we're such a word centric, uh, kind of tradition where, you know, spirituality's lodged between the ears. I think that's where I bump into the limits of my own kind of faith and, and system. And I know there are many ways to healing, but I think that's a predominant, uh, kind of form in Christianity that I just wish we could, uh, uh, in songwriting lingo, pop the quiff, David David, about how to get beyond that in some way. And I think there's a lot of deep longing about that. We just don't, we don't quite know how to do that. And how far can we go with that is what you were just saying.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's beautifully said and really looking to the plant teachers and the other than human teachers for those insights, because the plants, you know, are so much older than humanity and they have these medicines and songs to teach us and insights about how to be in the world. They've, you know, evolved over all of these millions of years and they are really seen as elders in these traditions. And so to open ourselves, I think to the other than human is part of that embodied experience and to really connect with the land through maybe offering, you know, our love and our commitment to the land that's supporting us and relearning how to be in right relationship with the trees and the plants, and to really see them as our elders, instead of something that is a resource for us to just be, you know, using for our own benefit, I think is some of the, the, the insights from those cultures, cultural contexts that we have unfortunately lost, you know, in our, in our modern, um, North American, um, dominant culture.

Speaker 3:

That's fascinating. Jamie, thank you so much for being on with us today. I wish I, I wish we could just keep going and going here cause there's so many lanes that we could choose. Um, and maybe, maybe we could have you on again and dive deeper into one of those lanes, but, um, thank you for being with us on hyphenated life today. And, um, is there, I don't know if there's anything that you would want to point any of our listeners towards any particular work you're doing, um, thing, any organizations you're involved in that you'd want to point people towards to find more information or how they might get involved. Some of these things that are really fascinating to me, this idea of eco chaplaincy, you know, um, helping, helping to heal the relationship between humanity and the earth. Um, yeah. Is there any, any place you'd like to send our listeners?

Speaker 2:

Well, I mentioned, um, chacruna C H a C R U N a. They're a wonderful organization for exploring, um, plant medicines and psychedelic therapies from a really ethical and, um, plant-based, uh, approach to that conversation. And then the center for contemplative chaplaincy, we have a lot of, um, information, you know, available as our websites, developing it in a Ropa. So I might direct you to those places for now. And, um, just appreciate being here with you, both and hearing about your co Celtic Christianity endeavors, and, um, you're right down the street. So it's about time that we had a chance to talk with each other. And I appreciate the opportunity

Speaker 3:

You so much for joining us. It's my pleasure. Hyphenated life it's production of pine street church in Boulder, Colorado hosted by David[inaudible] and Andrew Doherty produced by Phil Norman executive producer. Alexey Molden special, thanks to today's guest, the Leo Hill trust of Boulder, Colorado, and pine street church. If today's episode has inspired, you reach out to us at hyphenated life on our Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter pages. You can also find us@hyphenatedlife.org. If you are looking for a spiritual community, we'd love to join you on that journey. Go to pine street, church.net, to find out more

Speaker 4:

Podcast where we talk about what should I say? And other what would be a better

Speaker 5:

That's right. That's what I was thinking. We could just type it out.