Hyphenated Life

The Book of Hebrews

March 18, 2021 Hosted by Andrew Daugherty & David L'Hommedieu Season 2 Episode 6
Hyphenated Life
The Book of Hebrews
Show Notes Transcript

"We welcome guest co-host George Mason who interviews Anne Scalfaro and Andrew Daugherty about their newly released book of a collection of sermons about the New Testament book of Hebrews. 

Hebrews contains one of the most sophisticated discussions of the meaning of Jesus for the life of faith today. Andrew and Anne engage deeply about a complex book that makes Hebrews relatable. They guide us through a relevant way to hear the voice through whom God spoke in the first century, and who also speaks to us in the twenty-first century."



Speaker 1:

Long ago, God spoke to our ancestors[inaudible] forever and forever. Welcome to hyphenated life. We invite you to join us on this journey to explore the connection of the sacred and the secular that inspires us to become more fully alive. Hello,

Speaker 2:

And welcome to another episode of hyphenated life. We're glad you chose to listen to us today and this week, uh, our normal co-host Andrew Doherty is unable to be with us in that capacity. Uh, so it's myself and a substitute host a name you might recognize if you're a diehard hyphenated life listener, that would be Reverend George Mason of Wilsher Baptist church of Dallas, Texas. Uh, George, thanks for being in the copilot chair with me here today. Uh, it's good to see you and good to have you back.

Speaker 1:

Thanks so much, David. It's great to be with you and to be in this guest host role. I mean, it's not that Alex Tribec is unavailable to this and we have to have this guest posting this, this is just a unique situation because our two authors who are now our guests today, right.

Speaker 2:

That's right. Yeah. Um, we, we, uh, we have two very special guests today that we'll be talking with here in a little bit. Um, Reverend and scalp Pharaoh from Calvary Baptist church in Denver and Reverend Andrew Doherty. Perhaps you've heard of him from pine street church in Boulder, Colorado. The two of them wrote a book together and it's recently come out and, uh, so we wanted to bring them on in the capacity of, of special guests. And you were the perfect common denominator to come on and, and sort of moderate this conversation and journey through, uh, through a discussion today with these two wonderful, wonderful human beings. Um, I want to go ahead and introduce officially our special guests for today. Um, first we're joined by Reverend Andrew Doherty. Uh, Andrew is a senior pastor of pine street church. He holds a degree in religion and theology from Belmont university and wake forest divinity school. He's written for such publications as the Huffington post Baptist news global and the Boulder daily camera. He is the cohost of hyphenated life podcast. Imagine that and serves on the national board of directors for the Baptist joint committee for religious Liberty in Washington, DC. He lives in the Denver Boulder area with his two children, Addison and Aiden. Um, our second guest today is Reverend and[inaudible]. She is a senior pastor at Calvary Baptist church of Denver, a graduate of Austin college and Harvard divinity school. She's. She was ordained by Wilsher Baptist church and enjoys life in Colorado with her husband, Damon Anne's ministry locally and nationally is shaped by her belief that faith is a lifelong journey best shared in community, as it requires continual vulnerability, courage and compassion. That's beautiful. We are graced and blessed to have you and you Andrew here with us today on hyphenated life. Um, thank you for joining us. Thank you, David. And thanks, George. Yeah. Thank you, Anne. Yeah. So, um, it's been alluded to a little bit here. Um, today's podcast will be centered around, uh, the recently published book called Hebrews. They co-wrote this book a few years back and it's recently been published by Smith and WIS, um, and is available all over the place. It's, it's a, it's a homiletic, a book. That's a homiletical commentary on the new Testament book of Hebrews. It's not something that's, uh, necessarily vastly plentiful out there. Um, it's a pretty cool topic. And, uh, we're going to talk about the origin of that book, the purpose of the book, the content, and, and anything else that's around that. Um, so I might just, I'm going to go ahead and pass it over to you, George, and see if, is there any place you'd like to start in regards to

Speaker 1:

All these arms, just drill them because they're the experts, but, uh, I think, um, you know, earlier when w when they thank you for the introduction, they were both talking at the same time. Yes. And, uh, I think that's a sort of a, uh, an interesting way to get into the fact that, uh, this book is the product of sermons that they did together. Uh, and so, uh, although they didn't talk over each other, they talked back and forth

Speaker 3:

In these circles. I think that was so let's just begin with the whole idea of co-project and how you pull that off, because that's not something most people ever experience. And you did that for 15 weeks.

Speaker 4:

That's right. Six, 16 weeks, uh, right in, in the summer of 2015, that's a, that's how long ago it's been, since we were in a real live congregational setting together, uh, helping us come to life.

Speaker 5:

Yeah. And I would just say that this all began because Smith and Helen was, was doing this series and approached me and said, we have, uh, you know, we're doing this preaching through the word, it's a commentary that has to be preached sermons to alive congregation, and you cannot skip over any verses in the, in the, in the book. You can't just pick, you know, a chapter here and there. And, um, you know, I was interpreting the idea and I said, well, which, which book can I do? And they had two left Hebrews or revelation. Uh, and I said, well, I'll, I'll take Hebrews. And then I asked them, actually, could I invite my colleague Andrew to, to join with me? Cause it felt like, uh, a project that, you know, two voices is better than one. And, um, so we, we dove into it.

Speaker 3:

Terrific. And I think it's also, uh, apt that although this whole series is the PR preaching the word and so follows through all these books, that similar format it's probably uniquely appropriate for Hebrews, because many scholars actually believe that this epistle, so to speak is the consequence of a series of sermons. Can you talk more about that in your research?

Speaker 4:

Yeah. That, um, that was definitely, at least for me a point of entry to begin to feel the rhythms that, that Ann and I created with, uh, with tandem preaching. Uh, it, it helped me in terms of my own kind of theological spiritual imagination that this text really in certain ways, as a lot of new Testament texts, uh, are, you know, uh, began to be used in worshiping contexts, um, sort of a first order theology, so to speak in terms of practice. And so, uh, yeah, depending on which scholar you talk to, there is a general consensus, I believe, right. And that, uh, the preacher of Hebrews, this was almost a sermon, right? The whole book of Hebrews approached as a sermon. And I think that at least for me helped, uh, embody and, and, and emulate this text in ways that, that had an immediate connection to it.

Speaker 5:

Yes. And I think in addition to it being, um, a sermon, it was also important. It

Speaker 1:

Resonates, I think, on so many levels now five years ago. And certainly now, still because it was addressed to Christians who were exhausted, burnt out tired, certainly persecuted in a way that, that we are not today here in the United States and can't understand fully, but certainly people who had a sense that they were jaded in their faith and kind of what's the point of faith. And so in reading through it and realizing that it is a book full of both encouragement and a lot of meaty theology to hand in hand as a means of inspiring hope and raising hope, uh, that gave that gave me something to hold onto, you know, as, as we worked our way through this, that felt relevant for our congregation today.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. That was really the thread of continuity as well as just the theme of hope. And we kind of bumped into, uh, the thematic interpretation of raising hope and found that throughout the book of Hebrews in different ways. Uh, but I, you know, I think at least for myself and maybe, and too, it's a lot easier for me to start with a text and move out to more bigger themes, uh, versus starting with the theme and then going mining for scripture to support the theme. So, uh, that was, uh, a really nice point of departure as well, and, and letting Hebrews lead the way. But I think we identified early on this theme of, of hope and giving hope to a very weary, uh, congregation, like Anne said, jaded and looking for a new life, uh, in the community.

Speaker 1:

So you you've outlined a little bit of the sense that you get when reading the book of Hebrews, that it was being addressed to a beleaguered church, and it was seeking to, to, to bring hope and maybe to reinforce also, uh, the theological Christological centrality of the role of Christ and their faith. But I think one of the actually nice things probably is that we don't act, we don't know an awful lot about the specific context of this original time, which allows you to sort of, I think, move it from time to time and, and make it something that is easy to fit in our time. When you think about this time that we would preach it and you preach this back in, what did you say? 15, 2015. Yes. Right. So, so now here we are in 2021, if, if you were to say to someone like, say me, okay, George, you, you might want to consider, uh, doing this very same thing at your congregation and using this, uh, this book is a kind of a template for that work. What would you say about our current context that you would say matches up with? Or you can find some, some resonance from this context

Speaker 5:

That you saw of Hebrews, uh, so much George. I mean, I think for one, not too much has changed in the last five years in terms of the church is still beleaguered. We have a lot of the same social, uh, issues going on. And I think that what I found really inspiring about Hebrews as a whole is that it does, when we talk about raising hope, I think it does that in, in two ways. One, you think about raising a child, right? There's an element of nurture and care there's teaching you're intentionally, um, going back and showing how does hope come to be? How does faith come to be? It's something that has to be taught. We don't just come into the world with hope, right? So in that sense, we have to raise hope up in our church and ourselves and our children in society, but also this idea of raising hope up. Like if you think of lifting something up, we have to lift up hope out of everything that's going on in our lives lifts at higher, um, than despair, you know, and as we live, how do we both lift it above so that we raise our eyes to something greater, if you will. And so there's this two elements of it being very intentional. We have to teach it. It's not just going to come to us. Right. We have to teach our faith in a very intentional way and also then speak about it and proclaim it. And when we, um, go through things in our society that, uh, as we have this last year, um, politically racially, you know, we have to keep pointing people to hope, um, in a very vocal way as the Christian Church. And I think the book does both of those things.

Speaker 4:

That's right. I mean, one of the observations in reading back through the manuscript over the last year or so, and thinking about how this began is, you know, somewhere in the book, I believe one of his quotes, Flannery O'Connor, and, you know, she writes it, the meaning of redemption, uh, is precisely that we do not have to be our history, um, in thinking about, uh, you know, the ancestors and coming out of the wilderness and, uh, this sort of almost a re a refrain that redemption is not a straight line. It's not, it's not linear, but we learn from our past without being controlled by it. And, you know, some of these larger themes, whether or not, you know, there's certain illustrations in the text that might have been live in the moment from 2015, but there was an evergreen nature. I, I found that there was a freshness and a liveliness that really, uh, is emblematic of the book of Hebrews itself. Uh, w we've called a Hebrews a little bit of a biblical black hole, because if you look at the, uh, if you look at the rhythms of the church calendar, for instance, the book of Hebrews does not come up that often. Um, and so preachers don't hear much about it. I think that we don't really preach much about it, but it really is this, this theological theologically complex book, but holds all the spiritual treasure that, that, and kind of alluded to it is about raising hope that is ever fresh and ever new. And especially when we have lived through the pandemic upon the pandemic, I think these words kind of leap off the page in, uh, in all kind of fresh new way. That's not just about 2015 when we started this, but, uh, throughout 2000 years of history, that it's been a go-to central part of the,

Speaker 1:

You know, you, you, you talked about how the book itself brings hope by connecting the story of the people to them. It was written to the longer history of the story of Israel. The book is called Hebrews obviously. And so there is a sense in which this writer is trying to connect their experience and who Christ is and how he functions in the ongoing story to the long history of Israel, uh, th that happens repeatedly. And of course, probably in the most famous chapter of Hebrews is the 11th chapter where there's sort of the hall of faith. You might say, of, of these, uh, characters, uh, that, uh, doc, the history of, of Israel. Uh, but did you find yourself struggling at all, or do you think there is a challenge in this book, uh, that that would, um, that would leave people with the idea that, uh, Christ has now in, in, in being greater than superseded the history of Israel in the sense that, uh, the church has now replaced Israel. This is an ongoing contemporary challenge for the church, I think in relationship to Judaism as a living religion. And I wonder if you, if you have any reflections about that, how, how we might approach the book of Hebrews with all of that context in mind, including our own contemporary. Yeah, it's a, it's an excellent question, George. And I think, you know, as preachers, we always have to be sensitive to our, um, our Jewish history and heritage as, as Christian preachers, right. And how we frame this text and the audience to which it was spoken then, and now, and my sense, um, through Hebrews is there is a lot of going back, looking at the ancestors building on the faith, but all this sense of this is foundational work leading to Christ. Not that Christ is superseding taking over, but crisis following in this line of ancestors building upon, in such a way that we can then to right as, as the sort of, you know, hands and feet and Christ of the world today, Hebrews has this wonderful balance of from different chapters. Sometimes you get Jesus sitting on the right hand of God, right? And the angels are with him. And other times you have Jesus as the vulnerable suffering one here on earth, nitty gritty of Jesus's life. So it's, uh, focuses on the divinity and humanity of Jesus in a, in a pretty balanced way. And one of the, one of the people that's mentioned in Hebrews, which I didn't know anything about King, the Caltech, uh, there's quite a bit about him, uh, that you have to explain as you're preaching this, but there's this beautiful moment when he's welcoming Abraham back, uh, you know, from battle. And instead of like glorifying him for his military, he offers him wine and bread, and it's just beautiful illusion, right. To Jesus that is to come and the way Jesus blesses us. And so I really, I think that's how I read it and how we preached it is this Jesus is building upon this history heritage, this cloud of witnesses. And just as Jesus doesn't come in a vacuum, right. Neither do we, right. It's almost as if there's not

Speaker 4:

Natural separation between the sacred and the secular,

Speaker 1:

Oh, well, this is like the hyphenated life to thanks for the podcast. There are many other episodes feel free to explore. You're a great host. So Andrew, I wonder if, uh, if you could point out some surprises that you experienced in this process, as you dug into the book of Hebrews, because as I mentioned earlier, for most people, and for most preachers, we know that there are, there are texts that we can go to in Hebrews, uh, that we will draw upon, especially for Memorial services and funerals, right? There's some good ones there that, you know, the first few verses of the 12th chapter about, you know, hanging in there and perseverating and not giving up hope. And, uh, and, and the like, but there's so much more, uh, and, uh, where there some treasures that you came away with that you would say, I'm glad I didn't miss this because this, this exercise really, um, led me to these, these, these insights,

Speaker 4:

Maybe oddly enough, I mean, and just mentioned King King[inaudible], uh, for all of you enjoy. Um, but, uh, you know, I think too, it kind of relates to your, just the question you asked a minute ago, George, on, you know, this is not about supersessionism ride that Christianity trumps Judaism, that, that Jesus really is in a lineage, uh, of his own tradition. And I can't remember who said this, but, uh, I know Albert Nolan in his book, Jesus, before Christianity that, uh, I love this quote that Jesus did not come to found the church. Jesus came to start a movement. And I think there's a beautiful continuity that Jesus was standing up in his own tradition, not necessarily to create, you know, a do religion, but to revise his own tradition. Uh, and I think that shows up here in some very, uh, human ways that Jesus says, we say, you know, our Christian faith, that he's the, the, the full face of, of God. Uh, and how do we say that? And, you know, stand up in our own tradition, without it needing to Trump or nullify Jesus' very own tradition. Jesus was a Jewish, dark skinned rabbi. And, uh, and we don't th that part of his identity such a huge part of his identity is not negated. Uh, I remember there was a new Testament professor, uh, whose name is escaping me right now. Uh, but who said, you know, Jesus, didn't walk around the Galilee saying, uh, I'm the second person of the Trinity. Um, that was, that was, uh, a faith claim made by the movement that he started and that evolved, and the traditioning process that happened with that. So I, you know, I guess, what am I, maybe not surprises, but, uh, we find Jesus fully situated in his own Jewish identity in the book of Hebrews, um, and there's room for tradition and innovation in that. And I found that to be a really liberating and freeing that, uh, you know, George, you mentioned a minute ago, the spiritual hall of fame there in, uh, uh, Hebrews 11 and 12, and Jesus, uh, is, is, is fully located in that longer tradition. Um, and that may or may not come as a surprise to listeners who might not know a whole lot about the book of Hebrews, but that for me kinda came up again and again,

Speaker 5:

I was just thinking about how, um, when, when we're going through hard times or our congregations are like this pandemic, you know, it can be very easy to want to make hope easy to sugar, coat it, and to say, you know, it's all going to be okay, you know, it's, you know, God has us, right. You know, it'll be fine, but there's a sense in, in Hebrews, that hope is not something that's sugarcoated, that it actually takes critical thinking, good theology, biblical knowledge, and the heart. And there's a wonderful phrase in Hebrews, um, Holy partners and a heavenly calling. And I love the balance throughout the book of the preacher of Hebrews does not, um, does not allow his congregation to get away with an easy faith, right. A palatable faith that just goes down easy. There's a sense of, no, you really need to understand, uh, the crucifixion and what it means. You, you need to understand your ancestors of the faith and how they play into this. And so, you know, having those hard conversations, thinking deeply theologically is part of what gives us hope. And, you know, so many churches today want to make faith so easy and, and, you know, black and white, but I think Hebrews allows us to live in that gray and says like through the hard, the hard parts of faith, that's where the hope is raised.

Speaker 3:

You know, I think the word perseverance, uh, is really, um, important in reading this because it seems to me that it kind of bridges, uh, two poles that even exist in the book of Hebrews. Uh, you know, we w if you, if you read the book of Hebrews, it's the place that people go, who are trying to refute the idea of the eternal security of the believer, right. You know, there's a, there's an old controversy between Baptists and church of Christ about this, right? That a Baptist say that you are once saved, always saved and, uh, church of Christ, once you to, uh, realize that you can fall from grace and you need to be careful. So Hebrews is the place that those folks go, who say you could fall from grace, so you need to be careful, but it's also the place you go to hear that faith is the assurance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. And so it has that pole to it as well. Uh, did you wrestle with that concept at all with one another issue, uh, as you worked through this?

Speaker 4:

I think some of it for me, uh, is the, the theme of suffering. Um, I mean, we've all collectively suffered for the last year today, by the way, as we record this on March 11, um, and you know, this theme of, of, uh, running the race, uh, finishing the course running through the tape, so to speak, uh, that a lot of that is imbued with suffering and that suffering, not that any of us welcome it, but to accept suffering, even as we see it in the form of the cross, as Hebrews talks about in chapter 12, especially of, you know, it's not an admission of defeat, it's not an admission or a S a succumbing to weakness, so to speak, it is there's a sense of spiritual endurance that our, uh, spiritual cardio capacity is fueled and driven by this, uh, long heritage of this spiritual hall of fame again. But I do think that this theme of suffering that comes up, uh, at, as Ann mentioned earlier, this written and proclaimed to, uh, a congregation with, with drooping hearts and weak knees, um, that there is something really powerful about, um, working against that narrative. You mentioned Georgia that the church of Christ that we all needed to endure to the end, uh, in order to be saved, uh, well, we want to endure to the end, whatever that might mean, but that's the nature of hope too. Um, but the acceptance of suffering is part of that hope gives this, uh, a little nuance, I believe, to that, to that, uh, conversation, uh, the Baptist church of Christ conversation, George, you just mentioned.

Speaker 5:

Well, and I would add to that even though we have not seen maybe in our lifetime evidence of this hope that we have, that is again, why we go to the great cloud of witnesses. That's why you have this hall of fame, because we go back and we see our ancestors who have lived through hard things and come through. So when we can't have hope ourselves, we turn back the history to see how others survived. We turned to community to see how other people may be in a different place than we are right now. And that's part of it too. You know, that's part of the, we might not see it for ourselves right now, but if there are others around us, who can, um, that's why we're in this together. That's why we're partners in this heavenly calling.

Speaker 1:

No, that raises then the question of how the book ends, uh, because, uh, this is a highly theological book. Uh, and I mean, if you're looking for, uh, a place to go in scripture to really, uh, analyze, you know, a tone mentor, um, that relationship to, uh, Judaism and Christology, the nature of Christ, as well as Christ's work, you know, this is, this is a book you need to reckon with, but then, you know, as, as Tom long mentioned, you pointed out the sermon formal maybe kind of ends around chapter 12, and we have chapter 13. Uh, so we get a Baker's dozen, uh, here, uh, but the, the 13th chapter moves into practical theology. Doesn't it? Uh, and this is actually not that different from a lot of new Testament, uh, works where Paul is often highly theological until he gets toward the end. And then he starts chipping away at here's the practices that you need to follow and that sort of thing, but, but it really does come down to, and as you were saying that there are these ways that we, we will experience these theological truths only if we are in community with one another practicing them. Right. So talk about that 13th chapter and how it ends and where we're at leads us as we, uh, as we come through this.

Speaker 5:

Well, I, I mean, I think you said it well, George, it's just, it's practical theology. So if, if, if you want an example of how to talk to your congregation, frankly, about what it means to be a Christian, this is a great chapter to read, um, share our mutual love, give hospitality to strangers. Remember those who are in prison, um, do good. I mean, very short phrases, action verbs that people can, um, hold on to and can take into their daily lives and to be it's symbolic of the fact that, you know, we, we come to church and to Bible study, to worship, to be challenged and to be intellectually stimulated. We come to, um, share our own personal woes and burdens, but if we're also not out serving in the world, you know, what does our faith really mean for, for, uh, God's kingdom? And I think that this preacher of Hebrews realizes that, that we can get the right atonement, theology, you know, check all those boxes. You can, um, suffer together and share our burdens, but at the end of the day, how are we then raising this hope in the world, in society, in the community? And how do you do that? And you remember those who are in prison, you know, you do good, you serve others. And so it is a call I think, to, to go out and to be the church literally, um, that is th that's a sermon that never gets old. Right.

Speaker 4:

That's right. Um, we've talked a little bit. My favorite part of a worship service is the bin addiction. Uh, not because it's the end of the service, but because, uh, it's that 30 to 60 seconds where you get to say directly, uh, who people are and remind them of who they are and who they are in Christ. And I, I say this, uh, about chapter that Baker's dozen George. I love these, these words from chapter 13, let mutual love continue show hospitality to strangers. Remember those in prison, honor, marriage keep free from the love of money, be content. Don't be afraid, respect leadership, trust Jesus, do good. Share what you have. I mean, that's, that's a hell of a benediction for, uh, whether it's, uh, uh, a biblical book or what we're saying on Sunday morning. And I think for me, that, that kind of came full circle to be really is the heart of Hebrews. Is that tough love, uh, reminding us that faith, uh, that someone said is always one generation away from extinction, right? So how do we keep raising hope and raising faith for each new generation? And the heart of that is, is right there. Hospitality, trust being community together. Reincarnating, uh, the body of Christ.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. You, you, you talked about it, how it's a hell of a sequence there. And, uh, it reminded me that before I go to, uh, to preach every Sunday or as during COVID, uh, on Friday mornings, when I go to record it, my wife, Kim, the last thing she says to me, when I, when I leave is give them heaven. You know? And I think that this is a reminder to me at least. And it's what chapter 13 is trying to say too. It's, it's not, it's, it's not the old Jonathan Edward strangling, you overhaul and, uh, making you afraid enough to do the right thing. It is this proclamation of good news, this announcement that well, it's raising hope, uh, calling people to lift their eyes and to do so in, uh, these practices that make the truth seem even more plausible, uh, because we're living it in community with one another, uh, in this way, there's, there's a sense in which you can't only understand the faith in an intellectual intellectual way. You have to understand it in, in this life together as, as Bonhoeffer put it. Right. And, uh, so I think, uh, it's a, it's a beautiful way to end. You might read it as if the preacher was w was sort of coming to the end and said, I got a whole list of other things. I just want to get these in fast, but I think it, it, it really does have a nice sense of, okay, here's a firm anchor as we close. Right. Well, put, you can do a whole sermon series on those verses that Andrew read each of those rates. Okay. So which, which does as we, I know we're coming to a close here, David, but, uh, as we think about how to use this book, obviously one of the ways to do it is just to replicate your pattern that is to preach, uh, all of these sermons sit in a similar manner, using the texts that you've chosen, maybe similar themes, go through the whole book and do it in a season like a Pentecost as you did oversee summer. And, uh, that's one way to do that. Uh, what are some other possible uses of the book that you would recommend to pastors and lay leaders? Uh, Sunday school teachers in the light?

Speaker 4:

What I, what I love about this being a homiletical commentary and helping this come to life, you know, and God bless the people of Calvary Baptist church of Denver, 16 weeks of taking this deep dive into a more esoteric book to a lot of people. Um, but what I, what I do love about the whole premise that Smith and hell was set up for us in this project was that it's meant to be proclaimed and experienced to take that deep dive in a real life congregational context. And part of the benefit of that is I find this to be a more, uh, kind of accessible relevant resource for anybody for the Bible nerds out there. And for people, uh, who are looking for a faith formation resource, I think this could easily translate into small group ministries. Uh, for those of you who are listening, who might be wondering how to apply this, I think a small group setting, uh, where conversations can be had, because this really is as much as it is, uh, a deeply complex theological. I think the outcome,

Speaker 2:

Uh, for me of this, this commentary is that it is accessible. It is, uh, the best of what it means to be a human being, uh, and that I think shines through and in the sermons.

Speaker 5:

I agree. And I think, you know, I think you get the richness of Hebrews. If you read it all the way through or preach it all the way through, there are some chapters that are really good nuggets that you could pull out. Uh, for example, chapter four, um, in our book, it's, it's titled reclaiming rest, but it's about the importance of Savvis, um, which if we think about Hebrews as emphasizing perseverance and this long race of our faith rest is really an important part of that, but there's a component and Hebrews, and it's about rest here and now, but also what the, the heavenly rest will be one day. And again, George, you know, w what are we working toward? What, what is to come? So there are nuggets, and there's another great chapter about, you know, how our faith is as, as we're children. And so if you're looking at faith formation or the progression of faith, or if you want to dive into atonement theology, you've got a couple of chapters. You can really get into that. So there are some nuggets that you can pull out individually as well, um, to focus on, uh, thematically.

Speaker 2:

I'd like to throw out a third option if, uh, if the publishers are listening, I thought of this the other day, uh, it seems like a perfect text, a perfect book to include on alternative reading option lists, or have a whole course of study designed around it for students in seminary, aspiring pastors. Um, this is, uh, seems like it would be a great resource, so gotta get it out there. So then send it over to the seminaries, the religious studies departments, the theology departments around the country, because, uh, you're not going to find two better preachers out there to take you, you know, hold your hand through the entire book of Hebrews. Thank you all so much for being here today. This has been a total pleasure, George. Uh, I feel like we, we took off and landed safely a jumbo jet and partnership for the first time, Andrew, it was great having you as a guest and an especially thank you so much for being here today, um, for our listeners. What, how can you direct them to where they can find this book? You can find this book on amazon.com Apple books, or you can go to the publishing website, hell was.com, H E L w Y S. Uh, those are at least three places you could find the book.

Speaker 3:

Well, David, thank you for having me as a guest host. And, uh, and, and, and, and Andrew, uh, you know what you mean to me and, uh, I could go on and on about that, but, uh, I'm proud of you in this work. Uh, I'm looking forward to using it more, even with our church and, uh, each time we do, we'll be celebrating both of you. Uh, we, we talked about you're a delight in the word benediction and what it does. And David, I wonder if we could end our time together by asking Andrew, uh, to offer, uh, that beautiful benediction that you use that I know is indebted to William Sloane coffin, but that is, uh, uh, in your voice, um, always, uh, appropriate.

Speaker 4:

I, I would, I would love that as well. Um, it's, it's become ingrained in my spirit and soul here over the years. And it's beautiful. Thank you, George, for the invitation, uh, ed, thank you for being guest host today and thank you for who you are to me. And I know, and, and we could go on and on too about you, but you're in my spiritual hall of fame. And, uh, I'm so grateful and thank you for putting your good name on this project too. We're really grateful. And thank you. And as you say in the book, you were my perfect partner for this project, proud of you and grateful for you. Thank you. And so now for those listening in for us today, may you go out with these good words, ringing in your heart and head, may the Lord bless you and keep you may the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious unto you may God grant you the grace, never to sell yourself short the grace to risk something big for something good. The grace to know that the world is too dangerous for anything but truth and too small for anything but love. And so may God take your minds and think through them, may God take your lips and speak through them. And may God take your hearts and set them on fire.

Speaker 6:

Oh man.[inaudible] Oh, nice.[inaudible] to the dreadful dreadful hyphenated life. It's a production of pine street church in Boulder, Colorado hosted by David[inaudible] and Andrew Doherty produced by Phil Norman, executive producer, Alexi molding special thanks to today's guest, the legal Hill trust of Boulder, Colorado, and pine street church. If today's episode has inspired, you reach out to us at hyphenate as life on our Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter pages. You can also find us@hyphenatedlife.org. If you were looking for a spiritual community, we'd love to join you on that journey. Go to pine street, church.net, find out[inaudible].