Hyphenated Life
Hyphenated Life
New Conversation for the Dinner Table
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In a time when national healing is such a deep need, today we talk with public theologian, author, and pastor, Dr. Steve Shoemaker, about reality-based religion, the collective psychosis of our country, the tangled beauty of America and original sin, a poetry of protest and praise, and how we move forward toward justice and healing for all people.
Rev. Dr. Steve Shoemaker is an author, theologian, and pastor. He is currently pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Statesville, NC. He served previously as pastor of Myers Park Baptist Church in Charlotte, NC, Broadway Baptist in Fort Worth, TX, and Crescent Hill Baptist Church in Louisville, KY.
What are these moves? These, this is a new term. Are they dance moves
Speaker 2Like tick-tock. I think of them
Speaker 1As sermon moves. Oh, this is a , because I'm a Christian.
Speaker 2Welcome everybody to hyphenated life
Speaker 1Today. We're going to be joined by Stephen , Reverend Stephen Shoemaker , who I met once, who was a guest speaker at your ordination slash coronation service here at pine street
Speaker 2Search . Yeah, the installation service three and a half years ago on
Speaker 1Ordination installation, right?
Speaker 2Yeah. So Dr. Steve Shoemaker is an author and theologian and pastor he's written a bunch of books and articles. He , uh, is , uh , is a scholar's mind and a pastor's heart in so many different ways. And today with the felt like we cover a lot of ground talking about , uh, the premise of this podcast, Secora , uh, sacred and secular territory. Uh, we'll talk about reality based religion today. We'll talk about the tangled beauty of America and original sin and , uh, how we move forward in terms of justice and what he describes , uh , on today's show of forbearance. And we'll learn what that , uh, intriguing word means in terms of the national conversation and, and healing, healing, politically healing, spiritually , uh, and you know, one day hopefully post pandemic being able to worship together again , uh, in houses of worship across, across this country. Uh, we'll talk a little bit about poetry to , uh, what he will describe as poetry of protest and poetry of praise, which I think fits nicely into , uh, what we do to work for justice and , uh , healing, the injuries that we have endured collectively and personally , uh, during George Floyd's America, which he will talk a little bit about today as well.
Speaker 1I was mentioning earlier in talking with Steve it's, so it feels so comfortable and at ease and sort of safe. A lot of what we talked about here ends up touching on some fairly touchy subjects that we are coached throughout society to keep out of conversation at the dinner table. Right. Um, and he just, he, the way he talks about it is, is, is really nice, really a rare, rare person, I think, in that realm. Um, and I think the more you can listen to people speak about these things in the way that he does the better off we'll all be because it can be done as much as you know, I think for the second time, and in several podcasts, I've talked about banging my head against the table. And , um, I don't think any of us want to actually be doing that, but we find ourselves doing that. And, and, and he has this ability to put you at ease in these topics that normally have us with whatever your viewpoints are banging your head against the table. Um, yeah, sometimes
Speaker 2When we're talking about difficult topics or controversial subjects that, you know, it's the old joke about never talk, like you just said, don't talk about religion and politics at the Thanksgiving table. Well, why not? You know, and so when we think about , uh, how to, how to address those topics and subjects, sometimes what if we whisper instead of shout, and I feel like Steve does a lot of that, he's able to negotiate, not negotiate. He's able to facilitate conversations around difficult topics that normally make people's heads explode in a way that is constructive. It's almost like civil public discourse. You imagine that,
Speaker 1Right? I take him back to season one. We, we got to speak with David Plaza from the Tennessee , uh, journalists and, and how he's identified that as one of his passions. And he's out there trying to promote learning of civil discourse because it has largely been forgotten. And , uh, so when we're joined by people like Stephen Shoemaker , it's, it's a , it's a relief, it's a breath of fresh air. And a reminder that, you know, we, we could do this at the Thanksgiving table without the , uh , Turkey slicing knife, becoming a weapon, you know , um, for fear of it becoming a weapon more so because you know, it , it is eat so easy for a head to explode or, you know, temper to be lost. And , uh, and , uh, we can, we can do better, right? It's uh , for , at some football team, that's their slogan, isn't it? Is it the Patriots? I don't want to talk about the Patriots , uh , but do better. Right. And a part of that is, is , uh, in how you listen and how you speak. Both of those things go hand in hand, you can't just do one or the other. They have to both go together. And if you can really combine them, I think you get someone like Steven Shoemaker , who, you know, we can talk about the ,
Speaker 2And have fun and have a laugh here, there as well. Exactly. So
Speaker 3[inaudible]
Speaker 2Welcome to hyphenated life. We invite you to join us on this journey to explore the connection of the sacred and the secular that inspires us to become more fully alive.
Speaker 3[inaudible]
Speaker 2Into the fog. That's right. Onwards inbox , as Andrew said, Dave Dina who coined that phrase onward through the fog? No, I don't either. My uncle used to quote it all the time. I think it was former president. He quoted, but I don't remember who FDR or something. Maybe we're here today with Reverend Dr. Steve Shoemaker, who is an author theologian, and pastor. He is currently pastor of grace Baptist church in Statesville, North Carolina. He served previously as pastor of Myers park Baptist church in Charlotte, North Carolina, Broadway Baptist in Fort worth, Texas and Crescent Hill Baptist in Louisville, Kentucky. He is a colleague mentor and friend, and I couldn't be happier to welcome you to hyphenated live . Steve
Speaker 4Andrew, thank you for asking. I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 2We're so happy that you are , uh, one of my favorite , uh , shoe ma there, I do have a collection of Shoemaker isms by the way, and , uh , who doesn't, but one of them is , uh, I feel happy that goes deeper than the word happy. That's one of my favorites that applies today with you being here. Um, so I'd love to start at the beginning. And what I mean by the beginning is that our , uh, podcast premise is based, or at least supplied by this Epic sort of Madelyn L'Engle quote. And , you know, Steve, honestly, I think I might've learned this from you , uh, a decade or so ago when she writes there is nothing so secular that it cannot be sacred. Um, and that's a big part of the philosophy that inspired us to create hyphenated live . So , uh, I kind of want to start there. How do you see that sacred secular territory in terms of nothing so secular that it cannot be sacred?
Speaker 4Well, the , um , I mean, I go back to , uh , a belief that , uh, all that is is Holy and created by God and whether that's called secular secular street or sacred sphere, I don't think there's a dichotomy between the two
Speaker 2Nice that that fits our premise spot on. So I think that's a wrap. Thanks for joining us. Um , no , just kidding . Yeah, I, I that's , uh, as Andrew and I have gotten to know each other over the years, our conversations always drifted into, into the, the world of where that dichotomy, that false dichotomy really is , is such a source of conflict between humans and humanity and culturally and socially. Um, and we felt like this was a little something we could do to , uh, to create conversation around getting rid of that false dichotomy. Um, and so , uh, and I'm glad, you know, it seems like looking at some of the stuff that you've done , uh, recently , um, some , uh, editorial work for Baptist news global a lot at some of these articles you've written are just right up this alley. Uh, certainly in , I'm excited to talk about them. We're going to get into that in just a second. Uh , but we're going to riff here a little bit more, I guess, which David's way better at that than I am. Uh, but we are actually, we, we do record the podcast for our listeners out there. Uh, we do record it in the pine street church chapel downstairs at 1237 pine street, Boulder, Colorado. And so when we think about to that secular sacred spectrum, not a divide, but a spectrum, or even again, like David just said kind of a false binary or false dichotomy, it really has. And Steve , uh , you and I, co-led a pilgrimage many years ago to the Iona community. And I know you've made many pilgrimages there and that's part of what too has really informed our congregation in terms of our theological identity. Our missional identity here in Boulder is really finding language and a stream of Christianity that connects with Boulder, Colorado, where we , we hope it will connect with Boulder, Colorado. Uh, one of the least religious cities in America. In fact, besides Burlington, Vermont, I believe that Boulder is the least religious city in terms of religious identity in the United States. And I think Celtic Christianity, Steve is one of those , uh, sub streams or side streams , uh , in Christian tradition that has gone lost , uh, when we think about how to connect this whole sacred secular reality,
Speaker 4Right? Yeah, there is , uh, the , the , uh , Celtic Christians talk about , uh, two books of revelation, God fulfilled. God's self in two books, the book of the Bible and the book of creation and , uh , or the book of nature. And , uh , they respect them equally. Although most Christians don't pay much attention to the book of creation.
Speaker 2That's right. There are a lot of people that pay attention to the book of creation here in Boulder, though, right? I mean, it's right. That the alternate to cathedral of creation being the least religious city in our country is that it also rates as the happiest city in our country. And a lot of people attribute that to being right on the precipice of one of the most beautiful places in the world, which is the Rocky mountains. We have, you know, 30 minutes away is the Indian peaks wilderness 45 minutes away is Rocky mountain national park. And talk about the grand juror in all striking ability of nature and creation we're right here. So maybe they have maybe folks around here do have that book open a little wider than some that's. Right.
Speaker 4So I remember John Calvin once said that Christians had given up their season tickets to the theater of creation. And I know that probably the inhabitants of Colorado have not given up their seats . Okay .
Speaker 2No, they've been in the family for years, I think when it's like Packers tickets or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's, that's true. And, you know, we obviously come from a very specific , uh , location. We talked earlier. Uh, well, I guess last season now at this point , uh, but talking about how , uh, you know, we are in a particular location, I think we've often released it. I have thought about tip O'Neil the speaker of the house in the eighties when he talked about how all politics is local, you know, all worship is local law theology is local to some degree. Uh , and so I, I have great hopes here that, that our connection, or at least reclamation to some degree of Celtic Christianity and spirituality can really be fused with this love of creation and nature that we are surrounded by our friends here in Boulder, Metro, about that Christ Steve, that Christ and creation go together. They're not opposed
Speaker 4As a window. Barry says that the Bible is best read outdoors and the father outdoors the better. So I see what you're doing here is kind of , uh, helping people read the Bible outdoors, love it.
Speaker 2Well, we're going to step into , uh , a little deeper conversation around some of the articles and themes and topics that Steve you have written about in Baptist news global. And for those of you who don't know, it is an online, online news magazine and independent news source. And Steve is a regular op-ed contributor to that. And , uh, so I'd like to kind of begin today with what you've called reality-based religion. And when we think about the enormous shift we've had in our nation over the last few years, you've written that our nation is experiencing a mass psychosis where we drift in and out of reality , uh , we have been so immersed as we all know in so-called alternative facts and fake news rhetoric. Um, and Steve many people call you and consider you a public theologian, someone who speaks , um , in the public , in the public square for what you've called reality-based religion. And I love how you define true religion. You wrote the art of union with reality, true religion is the art of union with reality. Could you share with our listeners today? What do you mean when you define true religion that way?
Speaker 4Well, I got the, I got the idea from , um, from , uh, the great British theologian who wrote the book on mysticism, Evelyn Underhill, who, who defined mysticism as the art of union with reality. And of course at first glance, that kind of took me aback because you don't think of mysticism as , um, close to reality dewy , uh, they're kind of floating up above reality,
Speaker 2Where are the low flying mystics kind of, kind of thing.
Speaker 4Um, the , um, but , uh, when you think about it, if, if, if reality doesn't help live with life, as it is , uh, how much good can it be? Uh, it , and unless it's based on escape from reality, which of course some religions based on escape from reality , um, but facing truth, faith facing reality, facing ourselves and relationship to both of those, to me is at the heart of what religion true religion is
Speaker 2Beautiful. You say also that that facts are stubborn things because they are attached to reality. And as we record this, we are in the midst of the second impeachment trial of former president, Donald Trump. Uh, what would you say Steve, about how we have gotten to a place where , uh, we have to reaffirm on many levels that two plus two still equals four?
Speaker 4Well, I quoted in the article , uh, David gushy, who's a , um , extraordinary Baptist ethicist who says the primary category for him now of ethics is not good versus bad, but true versus faults that , um, reality is, is the first realm of making ethical decisions. And I think that , um, we need to think very carefully about that because how can you make ethical moral decisions if you cannot discern the difference training fact and faults , uh, you know, truth and falsehood and our age , uh , has in the last four years has been dangerously moving toward a place where people have less and less confidence and there being a place you can find truth or come to terms with , uh , facts that everybody can share.
Speaker 2I'm curious about what preaching and leadership in the church has been like for you over the last few years. One of the themes that keeps coming back in my experience and in conversations with colleagues and , uh, you know, observing churches here and there is this, what is the difference between being political and being partisan? Because I think sometimes when we address the big issues of the day, there's certain ears that are tuned into , Oh, he or she's being partisan about that, even when they say they're being political, what's been your experience in , in , I guess, putting on those turn signals between , uh, you know, how to, how to tease that out or pars out the differences between the two
Speaker 4To me , uh, for the meaning of political, I go back to the , um, the Greek word and the Greek meaning as , as the care for the welfare of the Polish . So the welfare of the city. And so politics in that sense, since it's a noble , um, a noble profession, because it talks about how can we care for the common good now ship , um, would to me would mean that two parties formed that have different ideas, how to take care of the common good. And , uh , this may be romanticizing the past, but in the past, both parties shared some of these ideas about how to take care of the common good, but that , uh, for recent years they've become more and more polarized on what the good is and how to get there. Um, in terms of church, you know, I found it almost impossible to address politics and the first meaning without people jumping to the conclusion that I'm being partisan. And the second meaning.
Speaker 1So as we, you know, you were talking about here, this, this , uh, inability for, for our country in particular right now, these days to come to terms with a common set of foundational base facts. Um, and I , I see that manifesting in many ways. Um, one of the, most of which is the idea of science, you know, science, a very foundation of science is based on discernible truths , observable facts, based on a process that's very thorough, very , um , proven. And, and yet, you know, for example, something like climate change , um, has become something that has become politicized , um, and not in the political realm, but in the social realm too, as far as politics has bled over into our social lives. Um, and, and that, so that, that to me represents that one of these foundational things it's really , uh, digging, digging, you know , uh, a crevasse between , uh, a crevice between, between half of our country. So what , um, what are your thoughts on, on science and faith and religion and, and how some of these seemingly disparate ideas might co-exist ?
Speaker 4Well, I think we need, as I suggest in the article, a reapproach Mont between the church and science , um, I noted that the church and , uh, that religion and science historically have had a very Rocky relationship sometimes , uh, the church in science found that felt themselves to be partners other times opponents. So , um, when, when Kepler said, I am thinking , I am merely thinking, God thoughts, God stops after God when he was doing the work as a physicist. Uh , that was a statement of the partnership between the two, but , uh , we've also seen periods when the Bible and science had been , uh, have been , um , described as , uh , as enemies as opposites and the search for truth , uh, from , um , you know, Tennessee Snopes trials, the monkey trials to , uh, uh, the evangelical churches pensions these last four years to dismiss and disregard science more and more.
Speaker 2Yeah. Well , one of the things that often comes up in conversations with folks who are, you know, outside of the church , uh, not immersed in churchianity that you ended, that we all know well, is that relationship between science and religion. And we know, you know, at some basic level that science spells out the, the how and religion spells out the why of the universe. And we need both science and religion to be compliments to each other. Don't we?
Speaker 4Yes, I think they are both searching to , um, observe the universe in a way that honors the, both the regularity and the surprising dimensions of the, of the universe. So I would see them hanging out. I would see them hand in hand as secrets after truth. I think you're right there , they're different. Um, there are different questions sometimes that religion asks and science asks, but I think we're all aiming for a , again, a better understanding of reality itself.
Speaker 2Well, I'd love to kind of move forward. Uh , you talk again in Baptist news global about the tangled beauty of America and original sin. And here we are in the middle of black history month. And what has made headline news in the religion universe any way over the past few months is the , uh , Southern Baptist conventions , uh , rejection and condemnation of critical race theory. Uh, even as you ride former president Trump for beta chiefs and federal agencies , um, and that, you know, Trump said that it teaches people to hate America. Um, you advocate a balance between what you call Messianism or that America is a chosen nation and realism. And so in this time , uh, we often describe as the pandemic upon the pandemic, especially the racial reckoning with the now George Floyd America, how do we, as you kind of allude to how do we hate what has been evil in our history, or, you know, racism as America's original sin, and yet also love what is good, especially conservative evangelicals who evolve it, that theological notion of original sin, and they , they can apply it so well to their personal spirituality, but not so well to the systemic , uh, original sin of racism.
Speaker 4I think that, well, let's start first with , um, George Florida and critical race theory and both Trump's , uh, attack on that in the Southern Baptist seminary presence attack on it. Um, what critical race theory does in essence is to make us help us face what systemic sin mains and systemic racism mains , uh , versus the more personal form of sand or racism that we generally talk about and which evangelicals major on , um, I think part of a sea change right now in racial understanding is this awareness now of the reality of systemic racism. Uh, I'm bet, you know, less than half of Americans had ever heard of the phrase, you know, 10 years ago, but now I think it's becoming part of our , uh, common parlance, which I think is a step forward. So can sand embed itself in structures of society, not just in the hearts of human beings and critical race theory , uh, helps us face the truth of that. Um, part of the way that Trump used it is to say that, to talk about racism at the very beginning of our history means to say that from the very beginning of our history, America was an evil nation. And as argue in the article, I don't think that's necessarily choices that we have to make. I think we , uh, if we have a realistic view rather than a messianic view of America, that means we can see the glory and the , um, and the sinfulness of, of our nation. Uh, it means that we can confess if you want to use that word, that America is from the same as made from the same cloth as every other nation of the world. And Americans are no better or worse than people in other countries of the world, which , um, you know, which in some ways , uh , debate some forms of what it's called American exceptionalism, which basically says we are unique, we are chosen and we are the nation, and we're really a better people than most other peoples of the world,
Speaker 2The King Celtic Christianity help in that conversation in terms of sort of what we talked about earlier on, around, you know, Pelagius Pelagianism and, and, and looking at it as original blessing versus original sin. I don't know, does this apply in that case and audit at a national level, or does it work against us?
Speaker 4Well, it's really interesting. Josh Holly uses plagiarists to , uh , come out part of his argument that America is a Christian nation , uh, and that we need to go back to a biblical truths in the moral cruise , in the Bible. Um, you know , I think that , um , I think the Jewish people have the best take on it when they say that we're born in the goodness and blessing of God, but that in all of us, we have a, yet, sir, how raw and a , yet sir , hot Tov. And yet , sir , Hiran evil impulse, and yet sir , hot stove , a good impulse and , um , the moral life of , of a nation and of, and of, and of individuals is trying to figure out how to maximize the yets or hot Tov and minimize it. Yes , sir. How raw. Um , but when I read that , uh, Holly was using pledges, I said, are you kidding me ? Um , but, but this is , um, I mean, part of his way of thinking, it's part of a group's way of thinking is that there is a Christian moral life that is the only basis for national moral life and, and that's defined in pretty specific terms. Um, so , um, yeah, I think , uh , I think , uh, I think that the doctrine of who human persons are, is important in the discussion. Um, I've always loved Reinhold labor's statement that man's capacity for , uh, evil , uh, for good, makes democracy possible. Man's capacity for evil makes democracy necessary , uh, that we need, we need to honor both at capacity for good and evil and find ways of living together, that address both of those.
Speaker 1I find myself thinking about the fact that I have both experienced and witnessed , uh , sort of , uh , uh, epiphanal understanding, or in one moment, you can suddenly grasp the concept of systemic racism with whatever it is, however you come to it. And once you do it's there, it doesn't go away. Right? You don't, you don't change your mind about it. It's, it's sort of, you know, once you look up and see the cloud, it's a cloud, you know, it's not, you don't look back up and it's something else, maybe the cloud morphs a little bit, but this idea that , um, that we can come to new understanding , uh, through openness and observation and willingness to listen and change from that, right. Um, we don't have slavery anymore. And I think for the most part, except for some extreme ism, like as a country, we can agree that that was bad and that was a mistake. And , uh, so to, to kind of pretend like it didn't happen, cause we don't want it to make us look bad at our beginning. I think it's, it's a stronger statement to say, we recognize that it was wrong and we changed. And , uh, and if you can recognize one instance of that, you sort of have to recognize it that anything can be improved or changed based on observation, based on opening your heart in your mind and your ears to what's going on around you. And so that gets us into today. Um, and I think if you can't even recognize our , you know, the sins of the past, how can you recognize the sins of the day? And , uh, I don't know what you, what you might say about that. And that gets back into the, the science debate as well. You know, that's also a foundation of science that you may have come to a conclusion based on a certain experiment, but that if another experiment has results, that change that conclusion, you have to be open to change. That's how progress happens. And we seem to be unwilling to make, to be , to be open to progress.
Speaker 4Yeah, it's the idea of truth that if it's not unchangeable truth, it's not truth. And in science talks about an approach toward the truth. And a lot of Christians are uncomfortable with that.
Speaker 1Yeah. The idea of certainty versus mystery, right. I see that church world largely divided like our , every part of our lives are you have, you know , um, Christians who embrace the mystery of life and Christians who embrace whatever truth is put on a plate in front of them for their next meal. Um , you're seeking
Speaker 4Floyd. Um, incident has spurred is a seriousness of study among white persons in America of racial inequity and what, and how racial inequity has been built into our legal structures and social structures. So for example, the GI bill that created the middle class for white people , uh , did not help , um, black soldiers coming back because they couldn't live in places where they could use the GI bill to , uh , to establish a home, which is the basic , um, place of war in a place of, of wealth among the middle class. Right?
Speaker 1Yeah. There there's. Yeah. One of, of so many examples. Um, and I feel like if as, as a Christian , uh, you're, you're observant that that is in existence. It almost feels like that there is , uh , a calling to address that , um, whether it be directly or through education and helping other people understand that, but then you end up, I think I said in a recent podcast, banging your head against the table because how can you not see this? Um, and I, I find myself doing that, you know, not necessarily in direct communication with people, but reading what other people observe. Like how could you possibly observe that?
Speaker 4Yeah, well, part of our defense mechanisms is we, we say, wow, I'm not guilty of what people did, you know, 50 years ago. Um, and I think that, I mean, for me leg sales phrase , uh, he is a Holocaust survivor of course, to fight against , uh, Emma's antisemitism, Holocaust actions, et cetera. He said, we're not all guilty, but we're all responsible. And I , I find that's a very healthy place to begin discussions. Um, we're not all guilty for what has caused racial inequity, but we are responsible for addressing those things now and seeing what we can do to change them.
Speaker 2I like that Steven , we think about moving forward in America . Now, when we consider the collective , uh, like you said, the, the mass psychosis, we're all , uh, seeking shelter and refuge and healing from , um, you also talk about how justice , uh, I think you said justice in the public square and this wonderful word that I hope you'll spell out for our listeners, forbearance forbearance in the body of Christ. Uh, you referenced St . Paul about that. That's another Shoemaker is that that's a great Shoemaker word for forbearance as well. Um, how, how would you , uh, kind of use justice and forbearance as points of departure for , uh, for moving forward and finding some, some collective healing?
Speaker 4Well, first , um, let's talk about the word justice and pardon me, and then it will go into the word for Barron's , um, to start with you. I would want to maintain that justice and forbearance are not antithetical to one another, that you don't have to choose between justice and forbearance . You know, there's a lot of talk about moving on and , uh , unity and , uh, um, but we , we know we need to face what South Africa faced , um, and, and do what they did in terms of truth and reconciliation, meaning , um , being always having to go together truth and reconciliation. Uh , but justice , uh, you know, justice is equity in the courts and the marketplace. It is , um, fairness in society, et cetera. Um, and so in America, we had the image of justice as a woman blindfolded with the scales of justice . Justice is blonde rule , w w we know now, and we're discovering more and more how that's not true of justice in America. So coming to terms of that's important. Um, I think , um, I like better the biblical image of justice from Amos, where justice is a , uh, is a sometimes warring flowing , uh , some always flowing sometimes roaring stream. And so I like to talk about the justice Singh and righteousness, righteous sing power of God to set things right. It's a very dynamic picture of, of justice. Um, and , um, I think that we are called as biblical people to be part of that , uh , at a flowing sometimes roaring river of justice and righteousness. And , and then I , I talked about right now addressing the wrongdoing and public officials , um, that we need to take care of, of that form justice of addressing either punishments and remedies , uh, to the wrongdoing that we've seen in public life. I was put on this bomb , a book I read last year. And part of the reason I read that book was because I was seeing in my congregation, a winding divisions and lack of, of honoring each other across political differences. The book was , uh , to address the , uh, uh, upset and angry anger in Protestant churches over homosexuality. But I think it applies equally to the political divide, right ? Well, well, Paul , uh , over and over, talked about Berets bearing with one another, carrying one another and our disagreements, and, and he talks about it so much that I can't believe I haven't preached on it much, or that we haven't talked about it much , uh, in, in , uh , in the church. So w what does forbearance main , I think it is living together in disagreement in which you are bearing with each other in your difference , uh, Dietrich Bonhoeffer talked about it as the ministry of bearing , uh , that's part of what makes the church, the church is this ministry of bearing with one another. And even when we think the other is in error or in sin, we bear with them because God has given them the freedom could be an error and sin , and therefore we must not cast them away. So I think that in church do a lot of repair work. Uh, you know, part of the division has been caused because we haven't been together singing each other, worshiping together, breaking bread together every week, as we did before, where if you had disagreements, you at least had to say hi to each other every week. And , uh , and talk together. That would, to me modify , uh , Mo uh , would be settled some of the sharpness of, of the disagreements. And then we couldn't talk to each other and in our disagreements and just see how we could learn from one another. Um, so I think the, the repair and the re and , uh, the, what I call, what , what Abraham Lincoln called the bonds of affection, how can we repair the bonds of affection that have been broken as we get back together? I think it is a kind of acknowledgement that we're going to bear with each other, even through, even through the sharp disagreements that we have had, and a suggested not as a kind of mandate of course, but I suggested that a foot washing ceremony may be the first sacred act we do together as a church when we get back, because what more hum humble, humbling, and, and humility based sacred action can we have in church than washing each other's feet.
Speaker 1And I also really liked this, this idea of forbearance that you you're kind of putting out there before today. My only experience with four barons had to do with my student loans. Um, so it had some different connotations for me, and I'm glad to have this one. I, I, and you hit on this point and something that hadn't particularly occurred to me, this idea of walking with one another and bearing each other's struggles and strifes and difficulties , um, today in the age of COVID and in the age of social media , um, where that in-person connection has been eliminated , uh, to an unreal kind of level , um, and others , a comedian, he talks about, you know, making nasty comments on YouTube , uh, you know, just sitting around and in your bathroom because you have no connection. You have no, there's no, no inability for you to make, say, whatever it is you think you're gonna , you want to say. Um, and that disconnect of, of being intimately in touch with one another, with our fellow church members, with our fellow family members, friends , uh, neighbors , um, that is a really interesting concept. And I , I love that idea of when we can get back from this, let's get down to the dirty, you know, before we even strike up the debate, let's wash each other's feet first and see if maybe that changes our tune a little bit.
Speaker 4Yeah. Can we say to each other, I'm sorry, what I was thinking about you the last 12,
Speaker 1Right. Right. Well, I didn't know you were thinking about me that way .
Speaker 4Uh, yeah. Um, it reminds me of the image of Christian community that I love that says that Christian community is like a rock tumbler where all of our sharp edge rocks are put together and tumbler and tumbled together until we are smooth and beautiful on the outside. And we've not had a chance to be tumbled together. Have we, again , river imagery,
Speaker 2The Riverstone's the same thing over time. They smooth and become beautiful objects. Steve, we'll wrap up here in just a couple of minutes. I , uh, sort of moving toward the end here. I know that you love poetry learned a lot of poetry from you over the years. And someone has said that , uh , poetry is a political act because it involves telling the truth. So just for fun or poignancy, what poets or poems are telling the truth these days in your eyes?
Speaker 4Well, one of my favorite poets , um, says that we need both the poetry of protest and the poetry of praise. If it's all poetry of protest, we , uh, um, we lose the energy to, to work for what is right and good and beautiful. So we need a poetry of praise to help bring us energy back into the goodness of life and the goodness of the world. So you're , um, you're asking me some poets that I'm rating these days. Well, Mary Oliver, of course , um, is an amazing poet. Um, and in terms of a poet , um, Wendell Berry , uh, most people know his essays and his , um, his , uh, fiction, but as his poetry is amazing , uh, William Stafford is , uh , from the last century was West coast poet who was involved in the , and the peace movement. And he is, he has written some of the most stirring poems that I have read, but both are trying to tell the truth. Aren't they free of praise and the poetry of protests. They kind of tell the truth about the divisions and the brokenness of the world, and about the beauty of the world.
Speaker 2Was it , is it Barry that says that a world worth saving is worth savoring?
Speaker 4Um, but that was kind of how I used , um,
Speaker 2Or is that, is that you can't tell the difference sometimes between Shoemaker ,
Speaker 4When did the association start with , uh, uh, it , there was this interview where , um, I think E w white , I think maybe point said , uh, I wake up in the morning, torn between a desire to save the world and desire to save for it. And , uh , which makes it hard to plan the day. He said . Um, and , um, I said , um, I think following that is a world that's not worth savoring. It's not worth saving.
Speaker 2Mm , nice. You need coffee for both though. Right?
Speaker 4Good coffee . Thanks . Good coffee.
Speaker 3Hyphenated. Life is a production of pine street church in Boulder, Colorado hosted by Andrew Doherty and David [inaudible] . The podcast is produced by Phil Norman and executive producer, Alexi Molden , special, thanks to our guests today and the wheel Hill trust of Boulder , Colorado .
Speaker 4I'm really pleased about what you're doing in the podcast with the hyphenated life, because I think part of the battle in our nation is a battle between those who see secularism as an enemy , uh , and the secular as a , the world of knowledge that we need to , uh , address this address as we would dress reality itself. And so I'm really pleased about that. Um, I remember ha Ray Abraham Heschel said the reason secularism as arisen has arisen is because of the insipidus of religion , um, that that religion has become so insipid irrelevant that people turn to , uh, the secular.