Author Rachel Joy Welcher stops by to discuss what got left behind at the purity ball. About twenty years ago, a torrent of literature related to sexual purity was unleashed in Christian bookstores. It spawned an entire culture with purity rings, True Love Waits concerts, and yes, even purity balls. Some of it adhered to biblical truth...but some of it did not. In her new book, Talking Back to Purity Culture: Rediscovering Faithful Christian Sexuality, Rachel discusses the effects this had on the Church and how we should think about issues of sexual purity going forward.
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Author Rachel Joy Welcher stops by to discuss what got left behind at the purity ball. About twenty years ago, a torrent of literature related to sexual purity was unleashed in Christian bookstores. It spawned an entire culture with purity rings, True Love Waits concerts, and yes, even purity balls. Some of it adhered to biblical truth...but some of it did not. In her new book, Talking Back to Purity Culture: Rediscovering Faithful Christian Sexuality, Rachel discusses the effects this had on the Church and how we should think about issues of sexual purity going forward.
Links related to today's guest:
(MUSIC PLAYING) I have a heart full of questions quieting all my suggestions. What is the meaning of Christian in this American life? I'm feeling awfully foolish spending my life on a message. I look around and I wonder ever if I heard it right.(MUSIC STOPS)
Amy Mantravadi:Welcome to the(A)Millennial podcast, where we have theological conversations for today's world. I'm your host, Amy Mantravadi, coming to you live from Dayton, Ohio, popularly known as the Gem City...although no one can tell me why. Whether you're enjoying the fall colors or locked up in quarantine, thank you so much for listening. I hope today's discussion will be beneficial for you. I'm going to be speaking with Rachel Joy Welcher about her new book, Talking Back to Purity Culture, and I'd like to offer a word of explanation before we begin. First of all, today's podcast will involve issues related to sexuality, and therefore may not be appropriate for small children. Second, you might be tempted to think from the title of Rachel's book that she is calling for greater sexual license among Christians than what the Church has traditionally taught, but this is not the case. Both Rachel and I believe that sexual activity ought to occur only between a husband and wife as scripture teaches. However, the Church has sometimes added harmful teachings to this simple biblical truth, and that's what we hope to address today. I'd like to start a tradition of beginning each episode with one or more scripture passages that are relevant to the day's discussion. For this episode, I will read from Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, chapter six, verses nine through 20."Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything. Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise up us through his power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For he says the two shall become one flesh, but the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with him. Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price; therefore, glorify God in your body." And that was First Corinthians 6:9-20 from the New American Standard Bible. Thanks be to God for his Word. Now let's head to the interview.
Jon Guerra:(MUSIC PLAYING)
Amy Mantravadi:I'm with Rachel Welcher, who is my first guest on the(A)Millennial podcast. How are you doing today, Rachel?
Rachel Joy Welcher:I'm doing great. So glad to be here.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah, it's great to talk to you. Of course we've interacted quite a bit on Twitter and over email over the past few years, but it's great to be able to talk to you, not in person, but about as close as we can get in these days of COVID. So just to introduce Rachel a little bit to everyone who's listening, she studied at The Masters University and St. Andrew's University, which was actually how we initially first got in contact because she was working on this same project while she was at St. Andrew's, and I was one of the lucky people to read a little bit of it at that time. Before that she worked for 10 years as a high school English teacher. She's contributed articles to The Gospel Coalition, Relevant, Mere Orthodoxy, The Englewood Review of Books and other websites, and she's currently working as an editor and columnist for Fathom magazine. Her published works include two books of poetry. The first is Blue Tarp and the second is Two Funerals, Then Easter. And then most recently the book we're going to be talking about today, Talking Back to Purity Culture. You can find her on social media. On Twitter and Instagram she's@RachelJWelcher and on Facebook@RachelJoyWelcher, nd that is Rachel without the second A. So yeah, I think that just about sums it up. So tell me, Rachel, you're getting about ready for your book to be released on November 10. How are you feeling about it? I saw that you just got your first copies- official copies in the mail. How was that getting to open up t he box?
Rachel Joy Welcher:Oh, man, it was kind of like Christmas morning to be honest. It's been so exciting to see some of the early reader reviews and I just feel like God is answering my prayers. You know, I've been working on this book for about three years. As you said, you were one of the people who helped me edit some of my early research. Amy is a very good editor. So it's been a long time coming, and so many prayers have gone into this project and to be able to see people holding it in their hands is- not to be cheesy, but it really is a dream come true for a writer. So I'm very excited.
Amy Mantravadi:Well, I should make clear to everyone that I didn't pay you anything to say that I'm a great editor. But I definitely do remember when I was reading over your, I guess, thesis it was called at the master's level, and thinking,"Man, this really should be a book." And now it is a book, which is just amazing. Again, I'm so glad that I could talk to you about it in the podcast. So just digging into the book itself a bit, and the first page, you write a little bit about what your plan is to do with the book and sort of the literature that's come out in the late 90s and early 2000s, as part of this purity culture movement. And you write that,"The books I had read promised that premarital purity would result in a flourishing marriage. They told me that sexual obedience would secure a specific blessing. When the reward didn't come, I was left to wonder what I had done wrong and whether others who had grown up reading the same books and hearing the same messages were wrestling with similar questions." So that sort of gets a little bit into the background of why you chose to write the book. What was the process that brought you through some of these difficult, personal and spiritual realizations to the point where you not only wrote about it at a master's level, but then decided to publish a book in response?
Rachel Joy Welcher:Right. Well, it was multiple things coming together because as an English teacher to high school students at a Christian school, I felt like I had a lot of interactions where students were- they had questions about things like sexuality and dating and purity. They had things they were struggling with and guilt. And so it was on my radar that these issues were still just very relevant to the youth of today, just like they were to me when I was a teenager. And then I had multiple female Christian friends who had been sexually abused and just in our friendship and kind of, you know, unofficial counseling, my heart was heavy for them and I wanted to see what the books of my youth said to those who've been sexually abused, like those messages about purity. How did they come across to people who'd had their virginity taken from them, for instance? And so that's kind of how it started was with research for my dissertation. And then after that I had a decision: I was either going to keep pursuing the subject and maybe apply for a PhD with my same advisor at St. Andrew's, or just start to write the book right then, and I really wanted to keep going and keep up that momentum. And I wanted to write something that was academic, but that was also really accessible to anyone who'd grown up with these messages. So this book is really an academic response, but also a very personal response based on the interviews and stories I've heard and based on my own life, because as you said, I also had to realize that these purity culture promises hadn't come to fruition in my own life.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah. I definitely got that from being able to read through your book. And in addition to reading about how it affected your life, growing up in this evangelical community and being exposed to a lot of the purity culture literature, it reminded me a lot of my time growing up in evangelical Christianity. And in some ways I had a bit of a positive reaction of,"Oh, I'm that never actually happened to me," or,"I never actually heard that problematic teaching." And I was kind of happy that I had managed to avoid it, but then there were definitely a lot of other things I said,"Oh yeah, I heard that all the time." You know, I remember being in high school at our Christian school and having one time during the year when all the girls would be brought into a room together and the guys would get to go do something fun. We would all have this talk about what we were going to wear to make sure that we weren't going to tempt all the boys in the school. And to a certain extent- I mean, I definitely support, you know, having dress codes and things like that, and I think that even I was fortunate that even those conversations didn't go to the kind of extreme level that you're talking about in your book. But I definitely was seeing things that I recognized in your experience either from something I had experienced growing up, or even more than that things I've heard from so many friends over the years who also grew up in the purity culture. And just so that we make sure that everyone who's listening is clear about what we're talking about in your book, you do contrast the purity culture movement, which developed a specific point in time- You talk about kind of the mid to late 90s into the early 2000s, about the time we were in middle school and high school- You contrast that with biblical sexual ethics, which had been the same throughout history. So what do you think helped to fuel the creation of this purity culture movement and how was it different from what had come before it and what the Church had usually been teaching about sexual ethics?
Rachel Joy Welcher:That's a really good question. I think what fueled the modern purity movement, which I focus on in my book, was a reaction to just this influx of and fear of STDs and teen pregnancy coming out of the seventies and eighties. And so it was very fear-based and reactionary. It began being taught, not just in churches, but also in public schools through abstinence education. And so this was a Christian- well, the message came usually from Christian environments, but it eventually bled into the schools. And once it became government funded, Jesus had to be taken out of it. So you ended up with this Christian subculture called purity culture that had some things in common with biblical sexual ethics and had other messages that were entirely unbiblical. And I think untangling those two things is what I'm trying to do in my book and what I wasn't able to do as well. When I was a teenager, I just took it all in without discerning the difference, because it was Christians who were telling me those things.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah, and you mentioned a lot of different books in your own book that you spend time interacting with and critiquing and really getting to the part of what their messages were. And I definitely remember everyone reading- It seemed like everyone was reading, at least, Wild at Heart and Captivating, and everyone had those books For Women Only and For Men Only. And they'd be[in] not just all the Christian bookstores, but they were at Barnes and Noble. They were being given to all kinds of people. And then that was around the same time- particularly I think under the George W. Bush administration, there was a real emphasis on government working with faith-based initiatives. But of course, when you're taking government money, like you said, you can't be pushing religion on people. So you have to kind of take some of the specific Christian-ness out of it and you kind of get left with this moralism. And so definitely that was jogging my memory as well. And yeah, you spend a lot of time focusing on those primary books that were associated with the purity culture movement that were released in the late 90s and early 2000s, and one thing you say about them is that,"Books that were meant to be tasted began filling the shelves at Christian bookstores and parents bought them for their teenagers who swallowed them whole. There was an assumption that anything about purity written by a Christian would be not only safe, but helpful." And that really resonated with me because- I'm sure we've all been to places- You'll go to Hobby Lobby and you'll see they have books there at the checkout, or you go to Walmart and they'll have a Christian section, or even at Barnes and Noble the"Christian" section, and some of the stuff there is good, but also I think most of us would look at it and say, there are some things there that kind of make us scratch our head. Like, does that really belong in the Christian section or what is this? But there is that same feeling, especially when we're so overloaded with things in our lives and so busy and wanting to do something to help our kids that we're just like,"Oh, well, this looks like a good Christian book on the cover, so it must be good." And wanting out of a good desire to do something, just handing that off to somebody. And what it makes me wonder, something that we could apply to our own lives today is what does this tendency we have- What does it say about our general purchasing habits and how we're raising our children? And did you have any thoughts about that in relation to the research that you did?
Rachel Joy Welcher:Well, I think it's interesting. I did a conference just a couple of years ago, talking about aspects from my book before my book was completed. But after the seminar, a father raised his hand and said,"Well, what books can we give our children, our teenagers?" And I think that's always the question that I'm asked. I get messages about it a lot where they'll say,"Ok, well, I see that you're tackling destructive messages in these core period of books. So which book can I give my kid?" The desire behind that is- I think a lot of humility- is a parent saying, I'm not an expert on this. Let's give my kid a book written by someone who has researched it. And I really respect that and understand. I think there's even some desperation there for parents of teenagers, where they're just grasping for anything to guide their teen in this formative and difficult time where they're going through puberty and they have all these questions. So when I was growing up, a lot of parents- my parents talked to me about sexuality and there was an openness there and they were, they gave me very solid teaching, but at the time all of us teenagers were reading these books, and I don't think that our parents really understood everything that was in them. And like you said, I mentioned that because they were written by Christians, there was an assumption that they were safe, but as a high school English teacher, I would contrast the way that we study literature in school, where we just- you know, students, it drives them crazy, but you analyze the heck out of a book, right? You pick out the worldviews and the themes and the symbolism and you write multiple essays on it. And we didn't do that with these books. Instead, we read them in isolation. So even though my friends were also reading I Kissed Dating Goodbye, I don't remember us ever talking about those books together in a way that was analytical or parsing through it. We were all just reading them together, but separately. And what happened was, I think we internalized some of the wrong teaching right along with the biblical teaching, and it's caused some damage. I mean, you and I've seen it. We watch people on Twitter talking about where they're at now, and some people have become so frustrated realizing that these teachings weren't true, that they're actually walking away, not just from the unbiblical teachings, but they're walking away from the Church altogether. So it's a real problem. I mean, we are seeing the ripple effect of this, of these books.
Amy Mantravadi:And when you mention the unbiblical teachings there, I'm trying to think back at some of the ones that you mentioned, were- one that I alluded to where females are seen to have a kind of responsibility for male sexual behavior. And that definitely plays into what you're talking about with sexual abuse victims, because how do you interpret that? If a woman is sexually abused, was that somehow her fault as well? I don't mean to put you on the spot, but what were maybe a couple other- just in case people aren't aware, with these books- what a couple other of the issues, problematic issues with them would be beyond what we've already talked about?
Rachel Joy Welcher:Right. Well, one of the issues is just that in order to motivate teenagers, to pursue sexual abstinence- instead of saying,"It's for the glory of God. Obedience is an act of worship for Christians, however imperfectly we perform it." You think about abstinence education in public schools. If you can't talk about the worthiness of Christ, then you have to think of a different way to motivate these teenagers to not have sex, and so the carrot that was dangled in front of these kids and in front of me even to an extent, was not obedience for God's glory, but this promise that if I stayed pure, I would get married. And the assumption was always that you'd get married within a reasonable timeframe. I don't know if that was stated in any of the books, but it just is what all of us assumed. You get married. You'd have mind blowing sex from night one, and you would have children with ease. That's a direct quote from one of the books that if you avoid premarital sex, you'll actually"have children with ease," meaning you won't struggle with infertility. So there were these kind of core promises that not only are not from scripture, but they also neglected realities like same-sex attraction. What did that say to teens who were struggling with same sex attraction? What about those who still aren't married and they're in their 30s and 40s? What about those been sexually abused? What about those who are divorced, like me? What about those who struggle with infertility? You end up with this sort of prosperity gospel and purity teaching that you have a fallout from, and all these people are now grappling with broken promises and God never made those promises, but they came from Christian books. And so a lot of people are associating those promises with the Church and with Christianity.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah. Thank you for providing that explanation there, because I think that'll be helpful to a lot of people not only to understand what you and I are talking about, but also to think back and realize,"Oh yeah, maybe I was hearing some of that stuff as well." And definitely where you're talking about- as far as the promises that were made by those books, like you said, they don't really gel with scripture, but in addition have not played out in the experience of myself or people I know. It's almost as if they're saying you'll never suffer in your life and we all know that that's not true. So one thing I especially appreciate about your book was all the interviews you conducted with average Christians, who'd been exposed to these purity culture teachings, and you discussed how it had affected their lives. And many of those conversations were really deeply personal that you have with people. And I totally understand why some of them didn't want their names included in the book, but what were some of the primary things you took away from those discussions for yourself and how did it affect your own thinking about these issues?
Rachel Joy Welcher:You know, there was a real emotional toll that those interviews took on me. For those who are into the Enneagram, I'm an Enneagram 2, and I'm also an extreme empath. I really take people's stories into my heart and it's a little bit hard for me to recover. And so I remember the months that I spent where- I do multiple interviews a day- whether I was meeting with people in person for coffee or over Zoom or the phone, people were- you were right. They shared with me things. I mean, they really were honest with me. One of the things that was particularly difficult was just how many Christians have been sexually abused. I don't want to say I was surprised, but it hurt me to just to hear these stories, and not only had so many of them experienced abuse, but they'd experienced it in the Church and by other Christians. And so just further complicating this narrative that if you do good sexually, you'll be sexually rewarded, and also adding to this false guilt that if you are sexually abused, somehow it's your fault because you could have or should have prevented it. I think that there was so much more of that than I realized there would be. And so it was a heavy time, but I was incredibly touched by how open people were with me, and it proved to me that this topic is one that is incredibly relevant right now: that our generation is grappling with these teachings and trying to sort out the good and the bad. And so that's really what came through is that I talked to Christians from all different theological backgrounds. Some had left the Church, some were extremely conservative, some were more liberal. So I talked to really an array of Christians and there was a common theme that purity culture didn't get it all right. And so that just proved to me that there was a need for this book.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah, and while I certainly haven't done anything like the wonderful research that you've done on this topic, I've had a few conversations over the years with people where they share kind of how these teachings have affected them, and many people who- and increasingly people are feeling empowered to talk about this, that they have sexual abuse in their backgrounds and often happening with people they know from the Church or from their family. And so it definitely...as you were quoting from those discussions, you had, I just imagined knowing how I had been affected by having discussions like that, that certainly that would have been hard for you and also not just for you, but how difficult it is for all of those people to be able to share that. And I was just so glad that they were willing to do that and felt like they were in a safe place where they were able to do that. So you have a great line in your book where you say that,"Virginity does not provide her purity. Jesus does." I was wondering, could you explain that a little bit for our listeners?
Rachel Joy Welcher:Sure. I think that was such an important message I wanted to communicate in my book because to just dismantle something is not enough. We have to know what, what do we do instead? What do we teach or believe instead? And so I wanted to dismantle these dangerous teachings and purity culture, but then I also wanted to return to what is actually true. And so I have a whole chapter on the way that purity culture idolized virginity, especially female virginity. And one of the things you'll notice in purity culture books is that there's this idea that virginity and sexual purity actually determines one's worth as a person. And again, specifically for women. And so there's these metaphors that many of us are familiar with, like the crumpled rose or the chewed up gum or the used car. And these metaphors were meant to communicate what happened to you when you sinned sexually. But what these metaphors did was not just alert teenagers to some of the dangers spiritual and otherwise of premarital sex, but it also communicated that they would lose personal worth if they had sexual experiences. And so I wanted to return to the theological principle that our purity, our salvation has its source in Christ, and that is unchangeable. So whether you are sexually abused or you make sexual mistakes and you sin, your worth as a person and an image bearer of God does not change. And not only that, I would argue that we all have sexual histories, whether it's something you've done physically, or it's just a lust in your mind, but we are all sexual sinners and sexual sin does not mean that you can't have a healthy future relationship with a spouse or with others in the Church or with God. And so we really have to return to what is the source of our salvation and the source of our righteousness. It's not our own actions, it's Christ's righteousness. And so our purity really can't change no matter what has been done to us or what we do. And of course what we do matters and what happens to us matters to God, but it doesn't change our worth.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah. It's really a very impoverished view of purity to not only just to bring it down to sexual purity, as opposed to purity it all other things in life, but then to bring it down to just,"Have you had this one particular physical action that you participated in or not,?" as opposed to a more holistic view of,"What is your thought life? Have you been looking at pornography?" And as far as actual sexual intercourse itself, making no differentiation between things you consented to and things you didn't consent to. And like you said, that kind of image of the crumpled up rose, which if anyone's ever seen the TV show Jane the Virgin that was out a few years ago- I think you mentioned it in your book- and the very first episode, and then they come back to it again and again- they show Jane as a little girl and her grandma- she crushes the flower and she says,"You can never go back!" Certainly it is correct that sexual sin is a big deal, and it's something that God speaks a lot against, but you know, the idea that either a mistake you made when you were a teenager or even something that was horrificly done to you when you were young, that you can never possibly recover from that and be pure for the rest of your life certainly doesn't take into account what it really means to be pure and the power that God has to sanctify us. So I really a ppreciated that you talked about that. Another important point you make in the book that we've alluded to- it has to do with who's ultimately responsible for maintaining sexual purity. And another thing you write in the book is that,"One of the main problems with modesty r hetoric is that it draws on the biblically unsupportable idea that women are responsible for the purity of men. If a man l usts after a woman, it is because she failed to protect him." And I know that you and I would both agree that there are things women can do that are not at all helpful to men in helping them to maintain sexual purity. But I think you're right to point out that this is another line of thinking that's been taken to an unhelpful extreme. And what kind of negative consequences has this mistaken thinking had i n the Church and really in society as a whole, because I see this line of thinking happening far beyond the Church and just in society in general?
Rachel Joy Welcher:Well, I draw a connection and this is where some people could get offended, but I hope they'll hear me out. There really is a connection between rape culture and purity rhetoric, and it starts with this idea, which is unbiblical, that women are morally superior to men and therefore morally responsible for what both genders do sexually. We don't see that in scripture. You go back to the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus talks about- if a man lusts after a woman in his heart, he's committed adultery. We are each held responsible for our individual sins. Now that's not to say that a woman couldn't be sinning by trying to selfishly cause someone to stumble: that's her sin. But if a man responds by sexually abusing her, that is his sin. And so I think it comes down to culpability. Culpability gets very confused when you teach that women are in charge of the sexual actions of men. This is where you get rape culture, the idea that,"What was she wearing when it happened? Why did she go to that party? Why did she walk down that street? She should've known better." That's rape culture rhetoric, and you see that bleed into purity culture with this idea that women can somehow prevent sexual assault: that it's within our power to make sure it doesn't happen. That was basically stated in multiple books, that if you act in a certain way, men will respect you and never abuse you. To an extent it might be true. There are certain things that we can wear or ways that we can dress that determine how people view us, but this idea that you could actually prevent sexual abuse from happening just by being an upstanding citizen: we know that's not true. The statistics prove otherwise. And so I think that you see not only women blamed for the sexual abuse that happens to them, but you even see Christian women blamed for their husbands' sexual sin, because there's this idea- and I actually just wrote an article about this for Fathom, it'll be coming out next month- but there's this idea that if women, when they're unmarried- they need to make sure that they don't sexually tempt men. And then once they're married, they need to be giving their husbands so much sex that he'll never stray, which is a strange way to look at it because it makes it sound like men don't have a moral responsibility: that they're constantly on the verge of sexual sin. And it's only women's sexual fulfillment in marriage that keeps them from exploding into adultery. So t here, you just get a lot of really harmful teachings that come out of this idea that women are responsible for both men and women.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah. And even some of these teachings seem rather contradictory because you talked about the idea that women are morally superior and need to be having a positive influence on men to prevent them from sinning. But also historically, there's been the idea out there that women are basically seductresses and that women are morally inferior and that's why you shouldn't be spending time around them. So a lot of this rhetoric, I mean, it's very fear-based, but it also doesn't seem to be very well- logically thought out.
Rachel Joy Welcher:Yeah. Sarah Moslener wrote a book called Virgin Nation. And if anyone who's listening is interested in this particular topic, she kind of traces the history of purity culture from the Victorian era on and shows how teachings about women changed based on what was trying to be accomplished. And so you'd see time periods where women were treated as morally weak, and then it would switch to men. Women are morally superior and therefore responsible. And it's a very interesting book to read, but in modern purity culture, you get this idea that came from gender essentialism, which is the idea that we're kind of controlled by our base instincts. And men's instincts are always barbarian type instincts, and women's are, again, morally superior, and these ideas do not come from scripture. They were secular thought, but they influenced modern purity culture rhetoric, which does set up women as the guardians of purity.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah. I think scripture is pretty clear that we all have a sinful nature. So apart from the work of God, we're all going to be drawn to sinful actions, but at the same time, we're all redeemable and we all actually are morally culpable for the things we do. We can't just say,"The devil made me do it," or,"The woman you gave me made do it," or anything of that nature. So you place a special focus in the book on Christians who have been sexually abused, are single or same-sex attracted, or struggle with infertility, and those are all things you've mentioned a little bit here. I was wondering what are some ways that the Church can be more supportive and inclusive of these individuals? And I would even add to that list, apart from just couples who are infertile, couples who have suffered miscarriages or couples who just haven't had children yet, or basically anyone who doesn't fit into that model of you get married in your early twenties, you have kids by your mid twenties: all the steps that people want you to follow and the boxes they want you to check off. I think that to a certain extent, anyone who doesn't fit that model can start to feel a little left out in the Church. So what are some ways that the Church can be supportive and inclusive of all kinds of people in the Church?
Rachel Joy Welcher:That's a great question. I really wanted to address some of these neglected realities that we face. Another one, I talk about all the ones you've listed and then also even just painful sex in marriage- where you can't have sex for whatever reason. That's something that purity culture never addressed: a reality that so many of the people I interviewed actually have dealt with either for short seasons or for long ones, depending on illness, depression, those kinds of things. I think one way that we can make sure we're being more inclusive is to stop worshiping the nuclear family. I mean, there's absolutely nothing wrong with rejoicing in a couple getting married, having children- those are beautiful, good gifts from God and I regularly rejoice even on my Twitter feed in the marriage God has given me, because I have seen divorce and despair. And I believe that whatever circumstance we're in, whether it's singleness, marriage- whatever circumstance that we find the ways that God is blessing us and we rejoice in those things. So it's not about downplaying the beauty of marriage and children, but the Church tends to treat people as though that's the norm. And while it might be the majority, what it does is it makes anyone who's not in that bubble feel pushed to the margins. And so I think things as simple as not constantly doing sermon series on just two things- marriage and parenting- but also talking about other issues like loneliness- how to pursue Christ in other ways. But if every woman's event is about how to be a good wife or a good mom, you're leaving out so many women and so many men who have different lives and they are honoring the Lord. They're living lives like Paul or like Jesus, where they are fully dedicated in their singleness or in their celibacy, or they're married, but they're childless and they're using their gifts and their time for his kingdom. So I think it's about making sure that we're not just always focusing on the nuclear family as though all Christians fit into that mold. And then it's also about appreciating those who don't fall into that typical mold and recognizing that they have their own unique giftings to offer the church family. I mean, ask a single to lead a Bible study. You don't have to be married to be spiritually mature. You don't have to have children to have compassion or wisdom. And so I think it's even about giving people ministry opportunities that don't fall into the nuclear family.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah, and I'm sure some people will hear what you said and despite all the qualifications you've given to it, will just focus on,"Oh, she says that we shouldn't be caring about families!" Honestly, I think if you look back throughout history, there was a time when the church really idolized celibacy and that was the ideal that got raised up. And then after the Reformation, there was maybe a correction of saying no, it's good to be just- you don't have to be a monk in a monastery. You can be married, you can have children, and these are all good and noble things. But the Church, as with so many issues, always has a tendency to gravitate to one extreme or the other, right? So either we're saying,"Being married and having kids is the ideal everyone should strive to," or,"Just being single and giving all your time to service is the ideal." And I think that what I'm hearing from you is that we need to be not going to one extreme or the other, but be embracing people at all- as Paul talks about, you know, in 1 Corinthians 7, where he talks about: it's good to not be married, but if you're in this situation or that situation, yeah, be married. I think that sometimes we miss the possibility that there could be more than one way for someone to be godly. And also, I think our cultural moment we're in right now where we're really seeing the breakdown of the family in a lot of ways- I think that tends to cause a bit of an overreaction.
Rachel Joy Welcher:You're pointing out too that it's very much cultural, more than biblical, the way the pendulum swings. And so there was a time when I think celibacy was probably a lot easier for Christians because there was more of a community: there was more respect for it. Whereas now I've heard some of my same-sex friends who aren't in marriages say that celibacy- people look at them strange and encourage them to marry someone of the opposite gender, even if they are not in that place where they feel like that's the right thing to do. Basically the Church seems uncomfortable with prolonged singleness and celibacy and as you point out, that's an overcorrection because if you look at scripture, Jesus was single. Paul was single and some of my spiritual heroes, Amy Carmichael, Rich Mullins, and Henry Nouwen. And they honored the Lord of their lives and they didn't have spouses or children. And so I am in no way downplaying how beautiful a family unit is or how good, and pursue it have as many babies as you can if you want to do that, but it's what you said. We shouldn't worship either stage or any particular circumstance because the body of Christ is meant to be diverse. We flourish when we celebrate our differences and learn from one another. Sameness is not what we should seek in the church. So I think just to go back to your question about how do we include those who've been pushed to the margins, another way is to stop segregating our Bible studies and small groups. I think when we only talk about sexual purity to a group of teenagers or a group of women in Bible study, and we're always having these conversations in segregation, all married or just singles or just those who struggle with pornography or whatever the group is- it's not wrong to have those groups, but I think we would benefit from more diverse conversations about sexuality. I talk about in the book this kind of dream I have that a small group would study my book and go through the questions together. And it would include a widow, someone who's divorced, a married couple, singles, same-sex attracted-people from all walks of life who could talk about these things together and realize that we have more in common than we think, that unmet longings come in all shapes and sizes, and we can share those things together and pray for one another. So I think it's also about trying to make sure we're not always segregating people into their relationship status or place in life, but seeking diversity.
Amy Mantravadi:Well, I think on that note, it's a really good place to wrap it up. I think we've been able to hopefully cover lot of what you talk about in the book, but there is a lot more for people, so I would very much recommend that you pick up a copy of Rachel's book Talking Back to Purity Culture, which hopefully by the time this podcast airs will be coming out very shortly after that on November 10th. Rachel, it's been a pleasure to talk to you and thank you once again.
Rachel Joy Welcher:Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
Jon Guerra:(MUSIC PLAYING)
Amy Mantravadi:I really enjoyed my discussion with Rachel about ways we can improve the Church's approach to issues of sexuality. Her book, Talking Back to Purity Culture is published by InterVarsity Press and will be released on November 10. As I previously mentioned, the music you've been hearing is the song"Citizens" by John Guerra off his album Keeper of Days. Thank you for joining us for this episode. Allow me to send you off with the benediction that comes at the end of Paul's second letter to the Corinthians."The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." Amen. Have a great week.
Jon Guerra:Is there a way to love always? Living in enemy hallways? Don't know my foes from my friends and don't know my friends anymore. Power has several prizes. Handcuffs can come in all sizes. Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one.