The past few years have revealed the extent to which sexual abuse has plagued both the Church and society as a whole. How should we talk to our children about this issue, and how can the Church improve its response when predators are reported in our midst? Author and advocate Rachael Denhollander stops by to discuss these important topics, providing advice and a bit of conviction. Also in this episode: Rachael reveals the less high-minded factor that has been motivating her this whole time.
Links for this episode:
Official website
Rachael's autobiography
How Much is a Little Girl Worth?
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram
"How Christian Theology Shapes Our Response to Abuse" - Speech at CCCU
"A Time to Speak: Addressing Justice and Forgiveness" - Speech at Calvin University
Rachael's testimony at Larry Nassar's sentencing hearing
The past few years have revealed the extent to which sexual abuse has plagued both the Church and society as a whole. How should we talk to our children about this issue, and how can the Church improve its response when predators are reported in our midst? Author and advocate Rachael Denhollander stops by to discuss these important topics, providing advice and a bit of conviction. Also in this episode: Rachael reveals the less high-minded factor that has been motivating her this whole time.
Links for this episode:
Official website
Rachael's autobiography
How Much is a Little Girl Worth?
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram
"How Christian Theology Shapes Our Response to Abuse" - Speech at CCCU
"A Time to Speak: Addressing Justice and Forgiveness" - Speech at Calvin University
Rachael's testimony at Larry Nassar's sentencing hearing
[ MUSIC PLAYS] I have a heart full of questions quieting all my suggestions. What is the meaning of Christian in this American life? I'm feeling awfully foolish spending my life on a message. I look around and I wonder ever if I heard it right.[MUSIC STOPS]
Amy Mantravadi:Welcome to the(A)Millennial podcast, where we have theological conversations for today's world. I'm your host, Amy Mantravadi, coming to you from Dayton, Ohio, home of the First Four. No, not the Final Four- the First Four. I wish I could tell you this means we are the hometown of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, but alas, I'm talking about college basketball. Well, there's nothing wrong with a little basketball, especially in these sport deprived times. Every year but last year, the University of Dayton's basketball arena has hosted the opening night of the NCAA basketball tournament, popularly known as March Dadness. We have the nature of the tournament bracket to thank for the First Four, because while a standard bracket must increase to the power of two, the NCAA wanted a different number of teams to compete. So we have our standard bracket of 64 teams, or two to the power of six, plus a few extra. Dayton's role as host of these opening games allowed it to also become the host of President Barack Obama and UK Prime Minister David Cameron in 2012, when the American leader decided to introduce his British counterpart to a game of basketball. No word on if Cameron was ever able to teach Obama the rules of cricket. Today's guest, Rachael Denhollander, has her own strong links to the sporting world, but not for anything she achieved in a meet. She has been honored by ESPN and Sports Illustrated for her role in bringing a horrific sexual predator to justice. I could fill an entire podcast or ten just talking to her about that experience, but today my primary concern is not to look back, but forward. Rachael was assaulted when she was still a minor, and it is a sad fact that children are often targets of sexual predators. While obtaining accurate statistics in regard to sexual violence is quite difficult, data released by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 2010 indicated that among self-identified victims of completed rape, 42.2% of females suffered this violence for the first time before age 18 while a full 27.8% of male victims were raped for the first time before age 10. In another study put out in 2003 by the National Institute of Justice, part of the U.D. Department of Justice, which interviewed those between the ages of 12 and 17, found that 74% of those who reported having been sexually assaulted were abused by someone they knew. While there's not as much information available about victims younger than this, but we can all think of high profile cases where the victims were very young. The identified victims of former Penn State coach Jerry Sandusky were as young as seven or eight years old. Now, I like you don't want to even think about the possibility of my son or anyone else's small child being abused in this matter, and by the grace of God, I hope such things will not happen. But the fact remains that there are people in the world who not only engage in perverted sexual desires, but also possess the devious nature required to break some of our society's few remaining restraints upon sexual behavior and violate the most vulnerable among us. We pray to God for their repentance and salvation, but we must also understand the way that a mind consumed by sin works. Such persons take advantage of the trust and kindness of others who have not lived so long in the same darkness. That is why I will be speaking to Rachael today about how we as Christians must defend the least of these in our homes, our churches, and our society. I know there are some people who feel uncomfortable with the term oppression today because they associate it with certain political connotations or positions, but it's important to remember that the Bible speaks about justice for the oppressed as defined by God. One passage of scripture that always strikes my heart when I read it is Ecclesiastes chapter four, verses one through three, where the writer says,"Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun, and behold, I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them, and power was on the side of their oppressors, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who were already dead more than the living who are still living, but better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun." That is the world we live in: a world in which sin is rampant and the image of God in all human beings is not respected often enough. The people of ancient Israel had a habit of honoring God in many ways, but forgetting to promote justice and righteousness for the least of these. Through his prophets, God condemned them for this behavior, as in these words he spoke through the prophet Amos."I hate, I reject your festivals, nor do I delight in your festive assemblies. Even though you offer up to me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will not accept them, and I will not even look at the peace offerings of your fattened oxen. Take away from me the noise of your songs. I will not even listen to the sound of your harps, but let justice roll out like waters and righteousness like an ever flowing stream." Jesus Christ also proclaimed himself to be on the side of those who seek justice, proclaiming,"Will God not bring about justice for his elect, who cry out to him day and night? And will he delay long for them? I tell you that he will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" Our test then is to be faithful in promoting justice for those victimized by sexual abuse and to seek to protect the most vulnerable around us. With those scripture passages in mind, let's head on to the interview.
Jon Guerra:[MUSICAL INTERLUDE]
Amy Mantravadi:And I'm here with Rachael Denhollander. Rachael was the first person to speak out publicly against the sexual abuses of Larry Nassar, who for many years had been a prominent doctor, connected to Michigan State University and treated the USA women's gymnastics team. She used her knowledge of the legal system to help build the case against Nassar, empowering hundreds of other women to come forward and speak about how they had also been abused. Nassar's convictions for sexual crimes have led to an ongoing series of investigations and lawsuits related to Michigan State University, USA Gymnastics, and the U.S. Olympic Committee, as well as contributing to the greater public reckoning about how we deal with such abuses. She continues to be a leading advocate on behalf of sexual abuse, victims and society as a whole, and especially in the Church. In addition to giving interviews and speaking at conferences, she has worked directly with those victimized by abuse and help to create resources for individuals and churches to think about how we protect and care for those around us. Along the way she is partnered with many other experts in the fields of criminal justice and trauma care. Rachael is the mother of four children and is closely supported by her husband, Jacob and among the honors she's received. She was the Sports Illustrated Inspiration of the Year. She was one of the TIME 100 most influential people, a Glamour Women of the Year recipient, a joint recipient of ESPN Arthur Ashe Courage Award. And she was named Michiganian of the Year by the Detroit News. And her published works include What is a Girl Worth?: My Story of Breaking the Silence and Exposing the Truth about Larry Nassar and USA Gymnastics, Discover Your True Worth, which is a devotional series, Becoming a Church that Cares Well for the Abused, to which she was a contributor, and her book for children, How Much is a Little Girl Worth? And she's also appeared in the Netflix documentary Athlete A. You can find her on social media, on Twitter@R_Denhollander, on Instagram@RachaelDenhollander, and on Facebook@OfficialDenhollander. So Rachael, before we get into the rest of the questions, I wanted to start out with one that was very hard hitting. So the world knows you as a selfless and honorable advocate on behalf of abuse victims, but i s i t not true that you have actually been motivated this whole time by something else, namely your desire for Haagen-Dazs non-dairy ice cream?
Rachael Denhollander:Ice cream. You know what, I have to confess, and it's always better to come clean about these things. The Haagen Dazs non-dairy ice cream is at the top. And I mean, it's just- there's just not a whole lot else to really fight for in the world.
Amy Mantravadi:Well, the time you were gracious to have us over to your home, I believe you actually offered us some of your non- dairy Haagen-Dazs ice cream, which truly-
Rachael Denhollander:Shows you how special you are.
Amy Mantravadi:It did. I felt very special at the time, and even more so when I saw on Twitter you continuing to talk about how special that was to you. So well, thank you. I don't think I actually had any. It seems like when someone offers you something that you know is so special to them, you don't want to take even any of it because- and also I might have a belief that non-dairy ice cream, isn't really ice cream, but...
Rachael Denhollander:I know, but we need to win you over to the right side.
Amy Mantravadi:Yes, well...
Rachael Denhollander:Gonna work on it.
Amy Mantravadi:There may be room for persuasion there. We'll see about that. So switching to a more serious topic, I could talk to you about so many different things today, but I was particularly interested to hear what you had to say about how we discuss sexual abuse with children. Particularly becoming a mother myself within the past year, that was something that was of interest to me. So just from your experience and in your opinion, when is it appropriate to begin talking to children about sexual matters, particularly sexual abuse?
Rachael Denhollander:You know, a lot earlier than we think. Really the concepts that our kids need to be able to recognize and identify and verbalize sexual abuse, those concepts are concepts we start instilling at them right away: concepts of bodily autonomy, concepts of consent, knowing that if something ever makes them feel uncomfortable or unsafe, or they're asked to keep it a secret, or if they just don't understand it, that there's a safe place to talk to- that they have adults in their life that will listen to them. There are a couple of things my husband and I do, and that my parents did that I found incredibly helpful. The first is just to keep open communication. Our kids have to know that the things that they're thinking about and the things that they're feeling- that it matters, even when I'm in the middle of parenting the umpteenth meltdown for the day with a four or five-year-old over something that I'm just in the back of my mind and going,"Why is this a big deal?" Part of what I keep in mind is if I want them to come to me with the big things, they have to know that their thoughts and their heart and their feelings are safe with the things that they feel like are huge. What is huge in their world is really huge to them. And so the very first foundational thing really is just having that open communication with your kids, treating their thoughts and their feelings and their concerns and their voice like it matters. In addition to that, we start right away with principles of bodily autonomy and consent, the importance of privacy, and the importance of respecting their boundaries. So in our household, we have a,"don't touch without permission" rule, not even a"fun touch" like tickling or hugging. You don't touch without permission, and they know that mommy and daddy will defend that. And so that just helps even at the youngest age, start enforcing the concept that nobody has the right to your body unless you give them permission for it. We start with concepts of what makes them comfortable, what makes them feel safe, the importance of privacy- so really articulating to them as we're helping them on the potty, as we're changing their diapers, as we're giving them baths when they're little and still need that kind of help, how important it is that they have privacy. When our kids make a request related to their bodies or privacy, we do everything we can to honor that and to verbalize that that should be honored. So just an example of this, I have- out of my four children, there was one of them in particular who really still needed help in the bathroom at a certain age, but they were very self-conscious to have anyone in there at the time. And so every time I'd bring them to the bathroom, I'd help get them on the potty and then I'd say, or my husband or dad or Jacob would say,"Mommy and daddy are going to leave now so that you can have some privacy and you just call us when you're ready," and we would verbalize to them every single time we take them to the bathroom: that their privacy mattered and it should be respected. This also meant that it was difficult sometimes to go out on dates or to go somewhere with Jacob, because this child of ours was not comfortable with anyone helping them in the bathroom, even a trusted babysitter or a trusted family member. They just weren't comfortable with that. And so we stopped until our child was comfortable having grandma or grandpa or a trusted aunt help them on the potty. We would articulate to them,"Mommy and daddy, aren't going to go out on a date tonight so that we can make sure we're home and that you're comfortable with the people who are around you." And so we verbalized to them over and over again how much that mattered. If someone violates their boundaries or their choices or their privacy, we make sure that we defend that right away, even if it seems like it really shouldn't be that big of a deal. Everybody who's a parent has had the,"Mom he's poking me! Mom, he's touching me," argument in their house where you're like,"This is not the issue that you're making it out to be," but because their principles of bodily autonomy are so important, we do defend that. And so those concepts are concepts that the youngest children can get, even as babies, that they can internalize and that they can verbalize. And then as they grow, the sexuality that their body can have just to start, our sexual concepts, their sexual knowledge grows as they age, but it builds off of their same foundations of consent and autonomy and privacy and comfortableness.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah. I think that's really useful because both from statistics I've read and just hearing people share about their own experiences who have been sexually abused as children, usually it's going to be someone they know, and someone very close" someone who would have their trust in some way or another. So maybe to us as adults, it seems very obvious like,"Well, of course you know when someone was touching you in a way that was bad." But actually, no, most of the time, for kids in particular, it could be very confusing because they're in this world where- when people are dealing with children, they're hugging them and, like you said, tickling and wrestling with them all the time. And for a child who has no concept of sexual touch, it can be maybe in their mind, it's a very- they don't understand when it's becoming something that's inappropriate. So I think that those are some good principles to keep in mind with children. In addition to that, you've already touched on this a bit, but what kinds of things do we need to tell our children to help them understand the dangers to which they might be subject?
Rachael Denhollander:So the other thing that we do a lot is we're really careful how we talk about their body. We talk about it in a very positive way. We talk about their private areas in a very positive way, and we talk about them as being worthy of respect. These are extra special parts of your body that should be respected- that deserve to be respected. And so that crosses into those concepts of,"This is why we don't violate your privacy. This is why nobody's allowed to touch without permission, especially these areas because they are worth extra special respect, and they're just for you." And then we also make sure that as we're talking about privacy and boundaries, private touch, all of those things, that we're using words that a child could encounter: concepts a child could encounter if they experience abuse. Not every child feels fear initially upon sexual assault. They might not be old enough to feel that fear, or it might come up even in a context like tickling or playful touch where they're more confused than anything. They just don't know what to make of it. So we use words like,"If you ever feel confused about the way someone is touching you, or you feel unsafe, or you feel uncomfortable, or you're just not sure, we want you to know that you can always come and talk to mommy and daddy about that. And so we use words that are much milder than the words that we typically think of with sexual abuse, because a lot of times when kids experience sexual abuse, it doesn't necessarily immediately trigger pain or fear. We certainly see times that it does, but it doesn't always. And a lot of the times, part of the reason kids don't disclose is because they don't recognize what they've experienced yet, or it doesn't feel quite right, but they don't have the words to put with it. So we try to help them identify those words- uncomfortable, confused, not sure- the types of things that they might experience if they were to experience abuse with someone who's close, who they would trust.
Amy Mantravadi:And particularly with very small children, there can be a real instinct that we want to protect them and just not have them have to worry about things, and we don't want to introduce them to sexual matters too young. And I think it's certainly true that you don't want to get into certain sexual matters with a young child, but people who abuse children are going to take advantage of their ignorance- are going to take advantage of the fact that they're not entirely sure what's going on. So I think like you said, that's why it's so important to find a way to- without getting graphic, to put it in a way that they can understand, so they'll start to clue in if- or at least know enough to say something to you, if anything were to happen to them. So turning it around from the perspective of a parent or anyone who's talking to a child, if a child tells you that someone has touched them inappropriately or made them feel threatened in some way, or something was confusing or uncomfortable, what should the response look like?
Rachael Denhollander:Yeah. I think the first thing to know is that it's pretty rare actually to get an actual disclosure of abuse from a child, because most of the time the child doesn't recognize it, or doesn't have the words to put with what they've experienced, or for children who are living in just horrific abusive situations, their entire perception of normal has been so distorted. They don't know what to call what they're experiencing. They don't know what's something they shouldn't experience: it's their entire reality. So it's actually pretty rare to get a disclosure of abuse. What's more common at times is to see the warning signs of abuse or to hear a partial disclosure. A child will say something that's not quite right or something that you don't quite understand."I don't want to see so-and-so,""This person makes me uncomfortable," or they'll just articulate not wanting to be around a certain person or in a certain place. Those are the types of things to pay attention to and just watch closely and ask some follow up questions. If you do receive a disclosure of abuse or something that sounds abusive, the most important information to find out is who and when. You don't want to go prying for details, as hard as that is. That type of information really does need to come from a forensic investigator to ensure that the child's memory and child's recall isn't interfered with in a way that's unintentionally suggestive, and also to ensure that the child isn't retraumatized by having to tell the story over and over again. But if you can find out the who and the when- especially the when- that will help give you an idea of what you might need to protect the child from and situations that the child might need to be pulled out of immediately, especially in the cases where it may be a school teacher or custodial caregiver, someone that they might be in contact with relatively soon. That also gives you critical information to report to the police and also to CPS, if it's a custodial person involved, or if that person has custody of another child. And so that's when that triggers that type of reporting. So knowing the who and the when is really the most important just basic information, but it's important when you ask those questions to not show shock or fear or disgust: to be very, very comforting and calm and safe place for that child, to be very reassuring, to help mirror to an extent their emotions. If the child is showing grief, you mirror grief-"I'm so sorry that that happened to you. That's not okay."- to help instill that the telling was the right thing, to help the child feel safe in your presence, and to help them know that you're going to do whatever you can to keep them safe. And then of course, the steps that you take from there include mandatory reporting to the police and likely to CPS, but also taking whatever steps might be necessary to make sure the child isn't encountering that person.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah. I think that's helpful, because as we see so often from people who don't take the right steps when they receive a report of abuse, some of it is certainly nefarious, but I think there are also some well-meaning people who either just don't know, or for whatever reason, maybe their personality or their own experiences lead them to either play things down and ignore them, or to immediately panic and start talking to all kinds of people. And like you said, making the kid tell their story again and again, things that could be more traumatic but necessary. So I think that's- go ahead...
Rachael Denhollander:Yeah. Just the other thing that's really important to understand is because most of the time abuse occurs with someone the child knows, oftentimes there's an emotional connection to that person, and if the child realizes that that person might get in trouble, it can cause them to very quickly retreat. And that might seem counterintuitive to an adult who's looking at the situation with very clear eyes and understands how manipulative and evil the abuser is being, but to the child, oftentimes this is somebody they care about. They don't want to get that person into trouble. And so if they realize by your response that they've gotten somebody into trouble, either because they're afraid of that person, or because they're emotionally connected to that person, it could cause them to back off. So again, you just want to be very careful with the way you're responding to that child, to try to help prevent that from happening, to help the child know that they're safe and that it was the right thing to do. And also not to kick in that fear response for having spoken up: fear of getting someone in trouble or fear of retaliation from the abuser.
Amy Mantravadi:That's another good point. Transitioning a little bit to how the church tends to deal with cases of sexual abuse, what are some of the typical errors that churches tend to make regarding sexual abuse, either in not preventing abuse or in mishandling reports of abuse? I mean, we hear about these things happening all the time, and you've been involved in trying to help a lot of people who have had this happen. So what kind of patterns do you see emerging throughout the church?
Rachael Denhollander:Yeah. How long is your podcast? How much time do we have here?
Amy Mantravadi:Take as much time as you like- within reason, within reason. I do have to go to bed eventually.
Rachael Denhollander:I know I hear you. Elora be up at some point here tonight. You know, the prevention piece is really interesting because a lot of times when people ask about prevention, they're thinking policy."What kind of policy do I need to have in place for my nursery, for my Sunday school?" And those are important. Policy is important, but policy is only as good as the people you have enforcing it. It's only as effective as the culture of your congregation. And a lot of times when people are thinking policy, there's massive gaps in how they're thinking policy. It's really common for churches to look at,"What's our church nursery policy? What's our Sunday school policy?" It's not so common for them to ask questions right now like,"What's our social media policy for our workers in the teen and college group?" In a vulnerable population where you're going to have a lot of ability for private communication if we don't have a policy about that. So there are places we have policy gaps, but the prevention side really is every bit as much about the culture of your church and your church's understanding of abuse for a couple of reasons. One, like I already mentioned, the policy is only as good as the people who enforce it. You can have the best policy in the world, but if your church doesn't understand what that policy means, they don't understand why you have that policy, and there's not internal motivation to follow it, it's very unlikely for the policy to have much effect in the end. It's way too easy to let your guard down, especially in a community like the church where most of the time, there's some sort of emotional bond between the people there. You feel like you know each other. You feel like you're in a safe place. That's the easiest type of place to let policy slip. And so the internal motivation and understanding that comes behind the policy, the culture around the policy is every bit as important, if not more so, than what you have down on paper. And so that really leads us to the cultural aspect and the relationship to prevention. One thing that we know about abusers after decades of study is that abusers target communities and target individuals who they believe are vulnerable, and that churches and religious organizations are one of the top targets for abusers, because they know that we often teach concepts of unlimited authority, I think to a very unbiblical extent, but it's something that is very useful to an abuser: this concept of unlimited authority. We teach grace and forgiveness. We teach restoration and oftentimes those theological concepts, which are beautiful when found in scripture, are wielded in a way that lacks complete knowledge about abusive dynamics and results in a situation where abusers are restored to positions where they can continue abusing or victims are silenced with a misapplication of forgiveness or teachings against bitterness or gossip. And so abusers seek out the religious communities for those reasons: particularly conservative, evangelical communities. And so the culture you have in your church surrounding abuse and surrounding those theologies is some of the most critical aspects of prevention, because that's what signals to an abuser that they will be safe: that if someone speaks up, they're likely to not be listened to- that they can manipulate their way into demonstrating repentance and that their abuse is not likely to be brought forward. Conversely, a church that handles that theology correctly, that is setting a culture of justice and righteousness, that understands abuse and abusive dynamics and articulates that publicly and clearly is going to signal to an abuser that this is not a safe place to prey upon the congregation. And so that cultural aspect is really key for prevention. It's also key for response because victims are always looking to see where they feel safe. They're looking to see how their pastors and how their fellow congregants understand these concepts. They're looking to see how we talk about victims of abuse in other contexts, because they know,"Oh, that's what they would think about me or that's how much they would understand about the abusive dynamics in my situation." And so if you are hoping to be a safe place for victims to come forward, to be able to minister to them, to be able to receive disclosures so that you can pursue and fight for justice, the culture that you set in your church and the way you understand those theologies is also key for the response aspect. It really takes both.
Amy Mantravadi:And I think just following up on one comment you made there about even the messages that we send to victims in our church- and every church has victims of sexual abuse if it's a church of any size. And I don't want to name any names, but I had an occassion within the past few months on Twitter where a major Christian leader was talking about the accusations that had been made against Brett Kavanaugh when he was a nominee for the Supreme Court, and basically saying it was all a smear campaign. And I understand maybe from a political point of view why people may feel certain way about that from a political point of view. But I tried to look at it as if,"Well, what if I was a sexual abuse victim and I read that and I may not know all the details of the political controversy over this? All I know is that someone accused a powerful man of a sexual assault, and it seems like you're just automatically assuming that it wasn't true. So should I come to you if someone powerful has abused me?" I think that kind of would have a real chilling effect on people. And I'm sure the person who posted it wasn't even thinking in that. He was just like,"Well, this is a terrible thing that Democrats have done." But you know, our words do have an effect, and certainly abuse victims who are already going to be sort of laser-focused on anything that's said pertaining to that, because it just is so close to their heart and soul. If they're not feeling comfortable, if they don't feel like they could trust people, that's not someplace they're going to want to stay, so I think that's a good point. And sort of related to that, the topic of sexual abuse is not often mentioned in sermons, and even biblical passages that touch on the subject tend to be mishandled in terms of interpretation. Just as an aside, in reading your book- and not the one for children, but the one that you know is sort of biographical- you gave an anecdote about a time that you and Jacob heard a pastor giving a sermon talking about a biblical story where it basically gave an interpretation of that story that was very harmful to sexual abuse victims, and I know this is something that happens a lot. So what do pastors need to keep in mind when they're preaching about these passages or the topic of sexual abuse in general?
Rachael Denhollander:I think there are a couple of things that really need to change with the way we approach scripture. The first- and really it's to simply apply our hermeneutic and our exegesis consistently across the board. You know, we always hear,"Well, let scripture interpret scripture. Let scripture interpret scripture," and the importance of taking the full counsel of scripture when we're interpreting a passage. We talk all the time about the importance of being very accurate and precise with the exegesis, making sure we understand the context and the culture and the words that are being used and the different ways they can be interpreted, not because culture determines truth, but because it informs our understanding of what's taking place in that passage. And unfortunately, we often don't see that type of care when it comes to passages directed at women and passages directed at sexual assault. And oftentimes even in the way that we wield those theological concepts against abuse victims, the dichotomy that's often presented between forgiveness and justice is an excellent example of this. Oftentimes, sexual abuse victims, particularly those that may be struggling with deep anger or deep grief at what they have been through- the response to them is just a blanket command to not be angry, to not be bitter, to forgive. Victims that pursue justice in the civil or criminal courts- it's not uncommon for them to be told that they're being vindictive or unforgiving. And we pit those concepts of forgiveness and justice against each other as if they're dichotomous, when in fact both are found in the character and the person of Christ. Both are found as integral components of the gospel. Both are found in the nature of God. We're not taking a fully orbed approach to justice and forgiveness. We're not allowing scripture to interpret scripture in how we teach forgiveness and in how we handle the concepts of justice. You can see this kind of just very sloppy exegesis when it comes to some of the Old Testament passages on what it means to, for example, be a biblical witness. We always hear this just very flippant,"Well, only on the testimony of two witnesses can we have a conviction." And the first thing that that really misses is that there is a principle behind that scripture. It was never intended to be a literal,"The courts can't do anything ever, unless there are two people who see it." And we can tell that when we look at how the Old Testament passages talk about even the Hebraic courts, for example: if a man is trapping wood and hasn't properly secured his ax handle and the ax handle flies off and it hits his neighbor in the head, there are very, very specific prescriptions for what's to be done in that case, but you're allowed to take the identity of the ax handle as one of your witnesses. You don't literally have to have two neighbors who saw the ax handle fly off and strike the third person in the head. So you can tell that some of those passages are giving principles for justice. It's the idea that,"Hey, you've got to look at the evidence. You don't take an accusation without any evidence. You have to have witnesses." But scripture actually defines witnesses not just as somebody who's seen it, but as somebody who has come to know of the facts. So if we are going to let scripture interpret scripture, it would give us a much better and richer understanding of what that passage was intended to mean and how it's applied. But oftentimes we don't take that level of care when it comes to the biblical passages on justice, especially as it relates to sexual assault. And I do think it's interesting to note that there's by and large with sexual assault- I don't think we would have a problem in our churches if the pastor walks in, for example, on a deacon holding a gun, having just shot a congregant- hypothetical scenario- we're not going to say,"Hey, you can't hold that deacon accountable because you didn't have two people who saw him shoot the congregant." We know better, and yet in the Southern Baptist Convention and in many other denominations, witnesses who have come forward with allegations of sexual abuse who have prior disclosures, who have people who have come to know, who fit the biblical definition of a witness, who have some of the types of evidence that we would look for trauma symptoms- neurologic damage- Those things are not understood to be a witness or evidence in scripture, because we're just flat out sloppy with how we handle scripture, and we handle it very inconsistently when it comes to sexual abuse versus other activities. That level of sloppiness is incredibly damaging because it not only misrepresents the character and nature of God and misrepresents scripture, but it also does incredible damage to God's children, and it allows predators to remain in positions where they can continue abusing and preying on God's children.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah. And you mentioned the Old Testament in particular. As I get older and go back and read so many of these stories again and again- I've been recently reading some through Genesis again, and it's just amazing how many times there are issues or occasions where basically a woman is put in sexual jeopardy for whatever selfish reason of the man. If you have- either when Lot offers up his daughters to the men of Sodom, or the many times that Abraham and Isaac always say that their wife is their sister, because they don't want anything bad to happen to him, they don't seem to care what happens to their wives. So it's definitely there to be addressed, but I think for whatever reason, we don't always see it. And I'm trying to think of any time growing up when I heard this kind of thing mentioned in a sermon, and I don't mean that as a particular indictment against the churches I went to, but I think it's common across all churches. So moving on, many people often speculate that the church's teachings on gender have opened the door for abuse or encouraged the covering up of abuse, and here I'm referring specifically to a more conservative end of the church. Do you think there is any substance to those claims and if so, what would need to be done?
Rachael Denhollander:I don't think we can get around how much that really has happened, because in a lot of the conservative churches' teachings of complementarianism and of their understanding of male-female authority, husband and wife submission, pastoral authority, congregants' submission, what ultimately has happened is that the wife is only allowed to have God-given rights when it's derived from her husband. So a good example of this is a very prominent teacher who I have a lot of respect for by and large, but this teacher did a question and answer session on what to do in a domestic abuse situation. And the first go around, the teacher did not even mention reporting to the police. He said she may need to endure being smacked around for a night, and then if it was persisted that she should go to the elders. Going to the police was not even mentioned. After multiple years of being pushed for a clarification to that point and to urge reporting to the police when you have criminal felon- when you have felony abuse, criminal abuse taking place, the teacher then did issue a clarifying statement, but his entire perspective on why the wife should go to the police was because she was also in submission to the civil authorities that God had ordained, and if she allowed her husband to continue beating her, then she was complicit essentially in his abuse and not submitting to the civil authorities by not telling them. Her entire ability to appeal for help, to appeal for justice was derived from her status as being submissive, not derived from her status as being a daughter of the King- not derived from her status as being an image bearer, but derived from her role as submissive. That is unbiblical and is ungodly and is not justice, and it absolutely is the type of teaching that keeps a woman in a situation where she feels like she cannot reach out for help. That teaches pastors to counsel in a way that keeps women in abusive situations. So, yes, I think we do need to own that there are absolutely ways that conservative theology has not only opened the door for but has paved the path for abuse and the cover-up of abuse. You cannot look at what so many prominent people are teaching in the abusive dynamics and walk away from that concept.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah, and it's interesting, cause I earlier today I conducted an interview with Kristen Kobes du Mez. That interview will be coming out before this one, I think, but I kind of asked her the same question and it can be very difficult to give a straight up and down, yes or no answer to this question, because especially the complementarian movement is pretty broad and things people define as complementarian is pretty broad. But like you say, when you get to the end of the spectrum where just being a woman is defined as being submissive, as it is in the nature of a woman to be submissive to any male that she comes in contact, you see how that could very easily open up the door for it to be very hard for people to get out of abusive situations. And oftentimes you'll see with that kind of theology, there will be the same treatment of children towards their parents or of all congregants to pastors. I mean, that could be the hardest of all: if you have a pastor who's done something inappropriate, because you have that authority over the whole church. So I think it happens when we take biblical teachings about authority and stretch them and force them to bear too much of a weight that was never intended for them. They become the lens through which we see everything else, which they weren't intended to be. So I think that you make a good point about that.
Rachael Denhollander:Yeah. And unfortunately, I think it's a lot less fringe than we want to think it is.
Amy Mantravadi:Yes. Well, that was another thing that I talked about in the other interview too. So yeah, it's something that seems to keep coming up. So in the wake of the#MeToo and#ChurchToo movements, do you see any encouraging signs? Are we getting any better at preventing and responding to sexual abuse than we used to be?
Rachael Denhollander:Yes and no. I am encouraged that we are having the conversations more. I think there is a somewhat growing awareness. There is a lot of reticence to want to be honest about the why's."Why do we have this problem in the Church?" And a very strong push to move anybody who has these concerns or who is active on these issues into a"other camp." The real benchmark for how much we understand and care about abuse is what we do when it's in our own community, and we're not doing a great job in our own community still. When I first- actually, we're at the three-year anniversary, just two days after the three-year anniversary of when I came forward about Larry. So it is three years to the day, I believe, that the Christianity Today article about Sovereign Grace Churches came out. In that article, I said if I had been abused by someone in the Sovereign Grace network and my abuse had been mishandled by C.J. Mahaney or another elder in the Sovereign Grace Churches, I wouldn't be being reviled right now as a hero for preaching the gospel. I would be being shoved out the church door as fast as I could, and my abusers would be being prayed for from the pulpit, because that's exactly what happened to the Sovereign Grace victims. Yeah, that's what I said in my interview with Christianity Today, and the backlash was so swift and so fast. It's exactly what everybody did. And that's just one example, but there are pastors I know who have lost out on book endorsements because they support my work. There are pastors and leaders and professors in the circles that we move in who say very vindictive and terrible- despite having completely refused to engage with my work or any evidence I've presented, because it's not comfortable to do so. Everybody wants abuse to be the convenient whipping post for the other camp, whatever that other camp may be, because it's safe when it's in the other camp. It does not cost you to care about when it's in the other camp. It does not challenge your beliefs or your ideas or your relationships when it's in the other camp, but how much we do when it's in our own community, how willing we are to speak up, how able we are to see the truth in our own community: that's the real benchmark, and we're not doing great. We're not doing great.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah. Sigh, heavy sigh. I think that's true, and I've certainly thought about what would happen if someone reported sexual abuse at my church or with any of the organizations or churches that I care about. And it's something that I actually talked a little bit with people at my church, and I should more certainly, but I think it would be a good thing for anybody, maybe even before you have to come forward with an actual report of sexual abuse, come to them with a hypothetical."If you heard such and such, what is the church policy? What would we do about that?" And probably from the answer, you could start to derive a little bit of where the church is as far as its culture, but certainly then when such a thing actually happens, you see if people actually abide by what they're telling you.
Rachael Denhollander:Yeah, that's a good benchmark and watching whether or not your pastor or leader is consistent in what they call out. So for example, conservatives were very consistent in calling out sexual abuse with Bill Clinton, and rightly so. Conservatives were very consistent in calling out some of the ways that Hillary has allegedly silenced the women that Bill abused in some of her work as an attorney: just decimating childhood sexual assault survivors on the witness stand and laughing about it. We have recorded audio tapes. Conservatives were very consistent in calling those things out. We were not consistent at all when there are even more accusations in"our own party." We were not consistent when there were allegations against prominent Christian leaders like Ravi Zacharias. When you can see a Christian leader who is calling out people in the other camp that is dead silent when the same or worse or more credible allegations are coming out against people in their own camp, we have a problem. And that tells you what you need to know about how much that leader understands dynamics of abuse and how they're going to respond when it would cost.
Amy Mantravadi:Well, so very true. And you know, something I struggle with emotionally, and I know a lot of other people have as well: just the seeming hypocrisy of the Church and being very willing to- for instance, when there was a sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church and we all concluded immediately,"Well it's because their priests can't get married. So that's the reason that all of the sexual abuse is happening," and I'm not saying that there doesn't need to be review of their celibacy policies, but when all of a sudden it turns out that the Protestant church has just as many problems, if not more- I think the thing about the Catholic Church is, because of the hierarchy, it became much more of a mass coverup, as opposed to Protestant church, you have a lot of little coverups.
Rachael Denhollander:It's actually harder to track.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah, so I think it is very telling when you see how people respond one way and in one situation another. But we all have our blind spots for sure. The question is, when you reveal people's blind spots to them, how do they respond? Did they think about it and consider it and eventually repent, or did they just double down and refuse to be in any way made uncomfortable by that? So you've done so much over the past few years to advocate on behalf of abuse victims. I'm wondering, what do you have planned next?
Rachael Denhollander:Oh, goodness. You know, a wide variety of things, anything and everything. So the boys' book that Jacob and I have worked on: the children's boys' book that mirrors the little girl's book is going to be coming out within the year, Lord willing, so I'm really excited about that.
Amy Mantravadi:Also very excited to get that for my son, because we have the girls' book, but I think it will be especially meaningful for him to have the boys' book.
Rachael Denhollander:Absolutely. We'll totally send you a copy. So that's set to come out- really excited about that. Working on more curriculum with Tyndale, so really, really excited about that. Doing a lot of speaking and educating, working with a lot of non- profits. We're going to be back at the U.S. Naval Academy. Work with a lot of universities. I'm actually doing quite a bit of consulting- doing crisis management for organizations that are finding themselves in the scandal, coming alongside their boards and helping them understand how you balance being a fiduciary with seeking justice and being ethically motivated, doing the right thing, being trauma informed. Working to help resolve legal issues between corporate counsel and survivors who have been hurt and asking that question of,"What does justice look like? What does restoration restitution look like for these people that have been harmed by your institution in your organization?" And moving them towards doing the right thing. I do a lot of education with bar associations and different attorneys groups. We're doing a lot of communication management for corporations who are in crisis. Again, helping them ask that question,"What is the right thing to do? What do we need to own? What do we need to..." and really starting as much as possible to begin motivating institutions to ask the ethical questions and to do what is right first and foremost. So doing a lot of corporate consulting, doing a lot of education, still working with writing, still doing a lot of volunteer work with various denominations and churches, and then walking alongside several survivors who are very dear to us. I think it's important to have all of those dynamics. I'm also working on some legislation- doing some legislative work. I'm really blessed to be able to take a very fully orbed approach to dealing with issues of abuse and to be able to speak into a lot of different situations a t a lot of different levels, but also to have people who are very dear to me who we're privileged to walk alongside. And then of course, there's homeschooling our four kids and married t o my wonderful husband and you know, normal life t oo.
Amy Mantravadi:Yeah. Well, sometimes I think about all the things you do, Rachael, and I say to myself,"I could never do all the things that she does."
Rachael Denhollander:I couldn't by myself either.
Amy Mantravadi:It's occurred to me now, as I'm listening to you, maybe it's been that ice cream that's been powering you all along.
Rachael Denhollander:It is the secret formula.
Amy Mantravadi:And if I could just get some of that ice cream, then maybe I'd be able to be running a million miles an hour too. So thank you for that revelation. But seriously, I would encourage all listeners: just be in prayer for you because you do a lot of great work and it's very challenging work, but I'm just so grateful to have you and Jacob and the many other people you partner with working on these important issues for the Church. And thank you for coming on to just answer some questions and hopefully it will help a lot of people to think about these issues.
Rachael Denhollander:Absolutely. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Jon Guerra:[MUSIC PLAYS] I need to know there is justice, that it will roll in abundance, and that you're building a city where we arrive as immigrants and you call us citizens and you welcome us as children home.[MUSIC STOPS]
Amy Mantravadi:It was an honor and a pleasure to speak with Rachael about these important issues. Be sure to look for all her books wherever you tend to make such purchases and stay tuned as she is taking on new endeavors all the time. Rachael's heart beats powerfully on behalf of the least of these, and I pray that the Church as a whole will continue to learn and grow in this area. The music you've been hearing is the song"Citizens" by Jon Guerra. He's hinted that he'll have some new music coming out in 2021, so there's some good news for us all. This season of the(A)Millennial podcast was written and produced by yours truly. You may tweet congratulatory statements@AmyMantravadi and send any and all complaints by mail to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, DC, United States of America. Ratings and reviews are very helpful when people look for a new podcast to listen to, so if you haven't done so yet, please leave your honest opinion about this podcast on whichever platform you use. I would not have been able to do this season of(A)Millennial if my husband, Jai, had not been willing to take care of our son while I conducted the interviews. I'm exceedingly grateful to him and to all the kind guests who contributed to these theological conversations. I will close us out today with an admonition from the Epistle to the Hebrews."Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. May his grace be with you now and forevermore. Have a great week.
Jon Guerra:[MUSIC PLAYS] Is there a way to live always living in enemy hallways? Don't know my foes from my friends and don't know my friends anymore. Power has several prizes. Handcuffs can come in all sizes. Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one.[MUSIC STOPS]