Kathleen Finlay: Regenerative Agriculture

Kathleen Finlay has been a leader in regenerative agriculture for most of her career. As President of the Glynwood Center for Regional Food and Farming, she’s s refined the organization’s mission and become a national figure in the United States in the world of progressive agricultural nonprofits. Under her leadership, Glynwood has become a premier learning hub for food and farming professionals. 

She’s also been instrumental in organising women who work for environmental progress and is the founder of Pleiades, a Network for Women Changemakers.

In this interview, Kathleen helps clarify the connection between food and human health, how to navigate the challenges of imperfect metrics, provides guidance for business decision-makers, and much more.

Related links: 

The Glynwood Center for Regional Food and Farming
Pleiades
“All We Can Save” (Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson & Dr. Katharine Wilkinson, 2020)

Click here for the episode web page.

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Brought to you by Re:Co, an ESG Software as a Service company helping clients achieve resilient competitive advantage in the long term.

Produced by Chris Attaway
Artwork by Harriet Richardson
Music by Cody Martin

Transcript

[00:00:00] Kathleen: The federal government tends to treat agriculture as a business sector and a commodity, not as a fundamental health need. So I think we ought to start looking at our policies and helping write policy and the passed legislation that supports farmers stewarding the land well, growing real food and getting that food to their communities.

[00:00:33] Jenn: Welcome to the future and sound podcast. I'm your host, Jen Wilson.

This is a podcast where we talk about prioritizing. Planet and profit. In each episode, we speak with world-leading experts who help us see the future we want and our role in it.

This is episode 12, regenerative, agriculture,

quick story.

When I was a graduate student, I decided to study the corporate response to the Haiti earthquake corporate interest and disaster response was increasing. And I interviewed major corporate donors and non-profit recipients of donations. One theme from my research was a bit perplexing. The common saying goes, what gets measured gets managed, but what if important solutions are hard to.

For example, if you've had a landslide during an earthquake, it may be easier to measure how many schools you've helped to rebuild. But what if planting trees on the bank just beside those schools would reduce the likelihood of future landslides and the need for restoring infrastructure? How would you measure the impact of securing a landslide prone slope, if another disaster didn't strike and the next a hundred years.

now, obviously these examples are very difficult and involve human lives and it comes up again and again in our work, just because it's difficult to measure a particular intervention doesn't mean it isn't important. My guest on the show today helps us think about the challenge of considering intangible benefits in another area, the realm of food systems

Kathleen Finley has been a leader and regenerative agriculture for most of her career. She's also been instrumental in organizing women who work for environmental products. Since arriving at Glenwood in 2012, she's refined the organization's mission and become a national figure in the United States in the world of progressive agricultural nonprofits under her leadership.

Glen one has become a premier learning hub for food and farming professions. Previously Kathleen was a director of Harvard center for health and global environment where she developed and shaped programs to educate communities about the correlation between human health and the global environment. She also created a farm friendly food policy for dining services and produced a comprehensive online guide to nutritional seasonal eating and cooking in the Northeast of the United.

Kathleen, I'm delighted to have you on the future and sound podcast. Welcome. 

[00:03:39] Kathleen: Thanks so much. It's great to be here, 

[00:03:42] Jenn: Kathleen. I thought we could start with a bit about your journey. So when we think about, you know, different career trajectories, where it's very clear, very linear and where we, where we go from one degree to the next step, you know, say you're going for a medical career.

That's one thing. But when I look at your journey, Kathleen, you you've been in academia. You've worked in the non-profit sector as an author, a producer of two award-winning documentaries. I'm really curious. What inspired you to take this journey? 

[00:04:14] Kathleen: Yeah, it's interesting. You know, some of us, I think have. A really clear and succinct division of how we want to contribute to the world.

And that's, that's never been my experience. I I'm curious by nature and get excited by looking at many different things from very different disciplines and perspectives. So that's really, um, That, that kind of, I don't know, you can call it, add of demand, whatever it is that desire that to kind of know a little about a lot of things has, has led me to a pretty diverse path.

Um, but all at the center of my work and my passion is, uh, is a sense of wonder about the natural world and a desire. To, um, to honor the nature and to protect it. So when I was young and I grew up visiting the foothills of the Sierra Nevada's and really just spent a lot of time outside, discovering.

Plants and animals and trees and adventure. That really led me to thinking about how we're connected to nature and that connection between humans and nature is really at the core of everything I've done, whether it's in food or in ocean conservation, or, you know, empowering those folks who are also.

Protecting nature. Um, that's, that's more, my interest lies. I'm looking forward to digging into those, uh, intersections between different fields and the sustainability movement. 

[00:05:56] Jenn: Uh, one of the things that I wanted to get a bit more detail on is Glenwood. So, you know, an important figure in the world of progressive agriculture.

I'm wondering if you could, uh, paint a picture for the audience, just about the farm and about. 

[00:06:15] Kathleen: Sure. So Goodwood it's the full name is the Glenwood center for regional food and farming. And what we are is a nonprofit that works in the Hudson valley to create, adjust, and healthy and equitable and sustainable food system.

We do that here in New York, but we are inspired by and work to inspire other regions throughout the United States and even internationally to be working on creating their own regional food systems. And we think regional is really important because that's the appropriate scale of healthy agriculture.

That's a. A decentralized way of looking at agriculture that can really optimize how he's doing the land and how we feed our communities. So we are headquarters. About, uh, an hour north of Manhattan and along the Hudson river. And we have a farm here it's dusted lightly with snow this morning. So it sounds beautiful.

It's totally picture S cause I look out my window as we're talking and, uh, we have a farm, we have a vegetable operation and a pasture-based livestock operation and the. The purpose of the farm is to train new entry farmers. So we have an apprenticeship program here and that's part of our larger farmer training efforts that are throughout the region.

So we have a farm business incubator that helps farm businesses within their first five years of operating. So that's really one of the main approaches we have is farmer training. Then we also work a lot on food access. We are essentially paying farmers that produce food. To distribute to their local hunger relief organizations.

So it's a little disruptive model of how hunger relief organizations typically work. They rely on donations and we're paying farmers to grow that food. So it's also getting way more fresh food into the hunger relief organizations here in the Hudson valley. So the farmers love it because they're getting paid, they're feeding their communities and need.

And obviously the folks in the community are getting the highest quality. Freshest food available with dignity. So, um, that work is really exciting. And then we have an approach where we just bring coal. We build coalitions by bringing producers together. So we have a coalition of CSA farmers. We have a coalition of grains and staples, producers, and bakers to try and foster production of grains and staples.

We have a livestock production groups, so we're sort of organizers. 

[00:08:57] Jenn: There are so many different routes to go down. Um, and I'm really curious to get your take on, on several elements. But one of the places that I wanted to start is when we think about one of the first things that you said that actually, you know, it's healthier to have a more regional food system for listeners who don't have as much background in agriculture.

Kathleen, do you mind explaining to us what some of the primary benefits from a health perspective are in having a local food system? 

[00:09:26] Kathleen: Yeah, sure. I mean the direct health benefits you're getting typically you're getting vegetables. If you're eating locally or regionally at their peak guest ripeness. So the nutritional value is high.

They're not transported long distance. You're getting them the day of, or day after harvest typically, so that the food itself is more nutritious. And then if you're eating seasonally, some of the interesting studies coming out of Cornell, um, helped me understand that even, I mean, most Americans don't eat enough fruits and vegetables period, but even if you up the serving of the number of vegetables that you eat in any particular day, if it's the same vegetables, you're not getting nearly the spectrum of nutrients, then if you.

A variety of vegetables throughout the year, which is what a regional food diet would consist of because you're eating seasonally. So just the breadth of the variety by eating locally is more nutritious. And then there's some other studies that show, um, that CSA is really one of the healthiest. Ways of getting local food.

And what I mean by CSA is it's an acronym that stands for community supported agriculture. And typically for a CSA, the customer pays the farm in the off season and then every week gets a share of the harvest. So that style of food distribution of is like one of the healthiest. Ways one can eat. It's also great for the farms because they get the cash when they need it the most, which is when they're buying seeds and equipment and gearing up for the next season and the customer shares the risk with the farmer.

So if it's a bumper crop that everyone benefits, but if it's a tough year for tomato, Both the customer and the farmer. I have to deal with the fact that it's a tough year for the tomatoes, but there's only been a few studies done that are looking at the health outcomes of CSA eating subscribing, and they're pretty significant.

So one study looked at the copayments for prescriptions that are usually tied to diet related disease. And those co-payments are cut in half after just one season. Wow. So we need more studies like that to look at the health outcomes of CSA. But my sense just from having now lived off of CSA for many, many years, and, um, seeing the benefits of when families start a CSA is that it's really one of the healthiest ways you can get.

And you can feel good about supporting your farm and your farmer, and it's typically more affordable than going to the farmer's market, or it's PR it's a little bit more affordable item per item than what you would find at a grocery store. 

[00:12:34] Jenn: I wanted to pick up on this point about the price, because of course you talk to the average person on the sidewalk on the, on, on the pavement here in the UK, and you ask them how they feel about food.

That's more sustainable or organic, whatever it might be. There might be a perception that it's just always more expensive. So maybe it's a privileged thing to access this higher quality, more local food. What's your take on that is, is, is that grounded in fact, or is that actually a notion? 

[00:13:02] Kathleen: That's not really true in most cases.

Yeah. I mean, it's like a little bit of both what I'm so excited about right now in our work and sort of where I'm the zeitgeists of food is. Moving the sort of foodie concept, um, you know, these really beautiful food that you might go to a restaurant and do a tasting menu. It's a fancy chef and it costs like 500 bucks before you even like order a drink.

But the type of food system that we're building at Glenwood is really about food sovereignty. It's about everyone having access to this beautiful food and. I see more and more how folks are moving away from that sort of elitist, privileged idea of the kind of food that we're talking about. It's still the same kind of food, fresh fruits and vegetables grown locally, but understanding it with a different lens and that it is.

It's really our right to have access to that kind of food for everybody. Everybody should have access to that kind of food. So we're, we work on that deliberately how to make it more accessible and affordable and the programs that I mentioned, but what needs to happen in order for that reality to manifest even more.

It's really policy changes at the federal level and at the state level, but the federal government tends to treat agriculture as a business sector and a commodity, not as a fundamental health need. So I think we ought to start looking at our policies and helping write policy. The past legislation that supports farmers stewarding the land well, growing real food and getting that food to their communities.

And that's just, we just haven't done that. So some of the food that, that type of food that comes from the farms that I'm describing can be more expensive. Although I would push back on. Like, if you joined a CSA, it's pretty affordable. It's hard to get to the farm sometimes for some folks, but then increasingly there are urban drop-offs and majors and small cities.

So you can probably find affordable food now, pretty widespread in this country. I pushed back on this notion that it's. Uber expensive, um, a little bit, but I also think that the brand, the branding of fresh, beautiful food has, has got to shift to something that's available to all of us from something that's just really privileged.

[00:15:46] Jenn: I want to pick up on this point. You know, one of the things that you're sharing with us is the important point about scale. So how do we. Scale some of these important principles. And I'm wondering Kathleen, you know, if you were an executive of a larger, uh, agricultural organization, that was for-profit, what would some of the principles be that you would incorporate into the more traditional approach?

Uh, seeing, you know, obviously Glenwood is pioneering and I've owned gals. What are some of the most important principles that you could put. 

[00:16:23] Kathleen: It's a great question. Um, I think that the type of farming that we're, first of all on scale, you know, I think that's such a fundamental American perspective on, on business is like, how do we scale it up?

How do we make it efficient? And I think what the answer to both of your questions is the same. We're working to build a system that is really resilient and resiliency sometimes has redundancy. It's not as efficient, but it is long lasting and adaptable, which is what we need in light of the climate crisis and other social factors and other factors.

So I think that this idea of the kind of food system that we see. It's not scaling that every business is bigger. It's a matter of replication. If there was a Glenwood and every region of this country, fostering this type of, you know, environmentally forward farming, that fee that makes food accessible to their communities, we'd be in great shape.

And I would argue that. Even with some of the lack of efficiency that you get when you scale the resiliency would be a net positive. And so that, that resilient type style of agriculture is the same. What I would offer to, if I were an executive of a larger farm or business, how do you build resiliency into your system?

And that's going to be different for every operation and every. Type of crop in every geographic location, but that's the lens I would start with. And on the practice level, that means doing things like rotational grazing, we're being really, um, conscious of the soil that you're farming and be farming for that soil.

Be doing practices like no till and things like that. So all of these practices that foster a sense of resilience. 

[00:18:28] Jenn: That makes a lot of sense. It was just thinking when you were talking about the health benefits, you know, in Germany, for example, you can go to the doctor and get prescribed time at a spa where you eat healthy, local food rather than a prescription.

Um, so it's, you had very interesting, uh, perspective. 

[00:18:46] Kathleen: What are the things you've been working on for a long time is how to incentivize. CSA subscriptions for, um, for folks through the, either their healthcare like insurance provider, or now we're working with employers. So as part of your wellness package at your place of employment, you get a voucher to join a CSA.

Um, and maybe you have a drop off at the office location. So that's like getting to just that. How do we. How do we start thinking about food for what it is, which is fundamental to human health and helping people get access to it, sort of when I think about, 

[00:19:27] Jenn: and on the scale and resilience point,

what I find really interesting about your answer is that in a lot of different industries, The critical piece of environmental, social governance factors or a framing that counterbalances or even increases profitability is of more long-term horizon.

[00:19:46] Kathleen: Yeah. 

[00:19:47] Jenn: And I'm wondering one of the things, obviously folks in business love key performance indicators and measuring and how maybe it's hard to get a measure, but how do we think about. Measuring resilience, measuring a longterm benefits of this kind of agricultural model.

[00:20:08] Kathleen: Yeah, it's a really great question.

And we do okay. In the short term measurements of, you know, we can look at health outcomes of CSS, for example, or we can look at soil testing or we can look at, um, you know, we track everything that we grow for. So you can kind of see how, how measure some proxy of how the land is doing by what you're producing.

It's abundance, basically. It's, fertility's so lots of short term measurements, but I think it's hard to get a number. I think that, and again, as an, as a leader of a nonprofit and in the nonprofit world, I'm constantly being asked to show metrics of the work that we do. And sometimes I can do that, but sometimes they're really intangible and their stories and their qualitative, I mean, they're they're yeah.

They're qualitative, not quantitative. So I don't know how to measure. For example, we started working with hard cider makers when apple growers were feeling like they couldn't compete anymore in the big apple right. In New York. And couldn't the apple growers were struggling. And so we started. Bringing back cider apples that haven't been in production in New York since prohibition.

And now there was like four or five cider makers in New York. Now there are hundreds of cider makers and there's a lot of apple orchards go inside or apples. And part of that work is bringing together this group of cider makers and growing that group of cider makers. And we can look at. The numbers like the finances of the cider industry.

We can look at an acres of apple production and cider apples. Those are metrics. The creation of this community of cider makers and how they all have each other's back and they help each other and they resource each other and they go to each other, like that is impossible to measure, but I would argue it's the strongest part.

So strongest impact of that work was the relationships we created the community we created in a, in a practice. So I think tying to. Measure something like resiliency. Long-term it's it requires us thinking about impact in a different way and realize really on storytellers and people who can help interpret progress in a way that's not really measurable.

That's tricky. 

[00:22:37] Jenn: It's tricky. And it's likely, it sounds like it's a combination between quantitative and qualitative, which often is the best snapshot of a picture, regardless. I would say, do you know one of the things that is really interesting about your perspective, Kathleen is just so often in this ESG movement, there's quite a bit of, I guess, thinking in silos.

And we've been talking about agriculture specifically, but you know, you've, co-authored a book on health and sustainability, sustainable health care, uh, if that's a more appropriate terminology and I'm just wondering from your perspective, What's lost when we look at say sustainability without considering health care and some of the coal benefits of having a more broad perspective.

[00:23:23] Kathleen: Yeah. I mean, I think it's critical that we try to get out of our disciplines and I think. Like academia is getting a little bit better, but we are so conditioned culturally to think kind of in a, in a, in a siloed way. We are, we are looking at this, we want to be expert at this. We want to be acknowledged for this.

Um, so I do see some progress and what's lost when you do that is just, it's just it's information. It's stretching your imagination about how to solve problems it's or how. The different issues. You know, one of my favorite things to do is to. Talk about what I'm grappling with with animators and artists and people who had like, no idea what, you know, cover cropping is.

So like, um, and because they might come at it like a totally different way and have different pieces of the puzzle. So there's a lot lost when you don't. Those things out, and these are everything is related to everything. Everything is related to everything and food is fundamental. So food touches everything.

You can't talk about climate change without talking about food. You can't talk about loss of biodiversity without talking about food. So it's, that's why I love working in food and agriculture because you can, you can kind of get to everything and that's what. Everything's connected. So, um, I think the more we can get at all of these issues, um, from multiple perspectives and areas of expertise, the better shot we have, that's a form of resilience.

[00:25:03] Jenn: In fact, um, another, another silo that's common, um, would be diversity and sustainability and that's something actually you've been leading on. And I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about. Your thoughts and then the opportunities in the future around diversity, as it pertains to sustainability, 

[00:25:22] Kathleen: like human diversity, 

[00:25:24] Jenn: human.

I know you've been a leader and I'm engaging with. Maybe I could share a little story from my side. You know, I was moderating a panel, um, a couple of months ago, uh, in Banff, Canada, and it was a panel about net zero and we'd done a pretty good job throughout the conference, uh, on different topics, having a diverse panel.

And on this particular panel, you know, it was really true. It was really tricky. And in sustainability, I think we have to be honest with ourselves that, you know, we do have diversity challenges. And so that's where my question's coming from. I think there's a really interesting crossover between sustainability and diversity and that it ties to your work.

I'd love to hear your thoughts. 

[00:26:09] Kathleen: Yeah. And when you tell that story, it was tricky because you ended up with, with a very similar looking panel, for example, hero.

[00:26:17] Jenn: Yeah. 

[00:26:19] Kathleen: Yeah. I mean, we've done such a poor job in this sector. So I was frustrated at a pretty young age on the lack of, of gender diversity and organizations, especially the large conservation organizations where I tended to make friends with other women who are all working for men who all served on boards that were men male led.

And that inspired me to. Organize women to help each other advance leadership in those sectors. And it's an organization called Pleiades, a membership-based network where we, we work to help each other in the work we're called to do around these issues of environmental and social justice. And. That work has been incredibly profound at, um, helping those women advance.

And I'm really proud of it, but there's still a ton of work to be done across. In fact, the needle hasn't moved that much since I started that organization in the large NGO space that addresses conservation international. I'm delighted that I've helped be a part of a new international organization called planet women that is women led and resourcing women around the world engaged in conservation efforts.

And again, frustrated by the lack of, uh, kind of more diverse leadership. This group of women just said, why don't we just start a new organization? And it's doing well. And I'm really proud of that, but, uh, still a lot of conversations to be had about, um, racism and the environmental sector and organizations role and becoming anti-racist organizations were doing that work as a historically white led well-resourced organization here at Glenwood.

We are deeply engaged in that work. And that's one of the most exciting elements of my, of my world today is having those conversations and becoming more inclusive and safe for people of color. And we center that work now, and most of our programs, um, I mean, these are not little. Issues. This is systemic.

Racism is a deep and ingrained problem, but I'm, uh, I hope that what we're doing here at Glenwood and what some other organizations are doing by acknowledging that and addressing it and talking about it is really, um, big helping kind of pave the way for a more equitable future. 

[00:29:01] Jenn: It's an admirable approach, Kathleen.

[00:29:04] Kathleen: Yeah, there's still a lot of. Lack of acknowledgement, like in those conferences, like really can't find, you know, you can't there's. So now there's also wonderful resources and we do this at Pleiades. You can, or developing a website so you can see members and their areas of expertise. So that, um, this idea that you know, that no woman could talk about net zero is like crazy.

[00:29:31] Jenn: I will say, this is a Canadian context. And so we were half the panel was, um, female, but we didn't have anybody that was a visible minority. And, but no, the, the point still stands, you know, it's, it might take a little bit more time, but diverse, uh, representatives of particular points of view are out there.

So, no, I think it's a really great approach that you guys are taking 

[00:29:58] Kathleen: the climate crisis. There's a group that was started by a friend of mine. I R Johnson, um, who published the anthology. All we can save, which is women writing about the climate crisis and her work now involves helping folks find expertise.

From my diverse range of white men. So that's another resource for folks that are listening, but it's growing lots of work to do. 

[00:30:24] Jenn: Absolutely. I wanted to shift gears a little bit and talk about a theme that is being woven through this series of the podcast. And that's the theme of greenwashing. So a major trend.

And I think this year, my prediction is that, uh, there's been a lot of talk about environmental, social governor. Um, a lot of interest. I was just at cop 26 and lots of CEOs were there and I predict that there's going to be a massive backlash against screen washing. And I'm interested in your perspective, Kathleen, to starting at a very high level.

How do you see or define greenwashing and the agricultural space? 

[00:31:08] Kathleen: Mm, I mean, in the agricultural space, it's on a few different levels. There's a lot of confusion about food for people. And I feel like some large corporations can take advantage of that. Like all natural. What does all natural mean when it comes to food?

Like what does it mean? There's no definition for it. You see it all the time. It's just like, of course it's on, it might have been sprayed with a zillion pesticides, but. It's broccoli. I mean, it's such as like, you know, it doesn't mean anything, so there's that, that happens like all over the industry. And then it's also.

Heroizing uh, the farm, the family farm, and like putting a farmers image on every piece of advertising for a large scale agribusiness. So you get this idea that you're buying. What this project you're buying is like from a family farm, which is just complete bullshit. I mean, it's like if it's, unless it's an actually a family farm, but, um, of course there are farmers at the, in part of that business, but it's not, it's not portraying.

Um, with reality, we're certainly not putting a concentrated animal feeding operation on a label, which is probably where that's the kind of system that stuff comes from. So there's just hundreds of examples of greenwashing on an individual corporate level. And then. There's been some great investigative journalism articles that look at menus that claim to be from local farms and call them out on that.

And I see that all the time, like, you know, farm to table, even like what is farm to table? Most food comes from a farm. It's just like which farm to the table. So, um, but it'll have a farm to table menu and say it uses local food, but it has, um, you know, tomatoes in February. That is just like a blaring people look over that.

So that's a type of greenwashing. So I think it's very present in the agricultural sector. And I think, you know, we have to kind of keep calling out players that are using our D our authentic desire to, to make the right choices. Um, but hiding the reality of, of those choices. And then like any, you know, like every organization in terms of how we manage our portfolio and how others are managing investments.

That's the other part where I kind of live ESG and, you know, try to measure how we're participating in the economy in general. That's also really tricky and I see more and more, you know, wealth advisors. Claiming ESG and it's hard tag ground shows how much it is, sort of talk there. But I think there's tools that are becoming more sophisticated to help folks make those decisions.

[00:34:20] Jenn: And when you're walking into a grocery store, Uh, maybe there's someone who's not a food expert and they're looking and they're looking at the, you know, broccoli. So this is okay. So they've finished their CSA, you know, for the week or for the month or whatever their cadences they're going into the grocery store.

And they're holding up the organic broccoli versus the non-organic. And if we think about greenwashing in that context, like if we're walking through a grocery store, what are some of the things to look out for to make sure that we're actually investing our dollars or pounds or euros behind the principles that we care about rather than the marketing?

[00:34:56] Kathleen: Yeah, I mean, it's tough. I don't really go into grocery stores off, 

[00:35:01] Jenn: um, wrong person to ask. 

[00:35:05] Kathleen: So I would advocate like get out of the grocery store, but I mean, um, that's maybe a little extreme, but, um, if your choices organic versus non-organic absolutely organic is going to be better for the planet in some way, you know, in, in a real way.

There's a lot of large-scale organic, they're big corporations. They're monocropping so my sort of advice to folks is. Sony junk, eat real food, right? It's a kind of basic if it has a, if it's in a package, like try to avoid that part. And then when it comes to fresh food, really try to find local food. I would buy local food.

That's not certified organic every day of the week, probably if it's really local, it's coming from a farm that is stored in the land with organic practices and. You're supporting your local farmers. So that to me is my number one priority. And then if it, if it, if that's not an option and I'm buying into a sort of more conventional food system, I would opt for the organic for sure.

[00:36:13] Jenn: Got it. That's good to know. That's absolutely good to know. And, and I guess coming back to you and your role at Glenwood, one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about Kathleen, it's really tricky is this notion of trade-off. There's never going to be any type of food with zero impact and one could argue.

Right. And so how do you think about. When you're leading an organization, that's really focused on impact. How do you think about in your decision making trade-offs between different benefits or costs to the environmental people? 

[00:36:49] Kathleen: Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I wish I had a very succinct answer for you. I think that's the practice of leadership and it's sort of like every day and depending on the scale of those decisions and the trade-offs that are involved, I typically get a lot of input and a lot of data, those diverse perspectives are really helpful.

And what we're trying to do is optimize. Health writ large. So I'd say like social health is included in that. Like how do people feel in these communities? So optimizing that and minimizing harm, you know, it's sort of like first do no harm. Agriculture is an extractive thing. So in terms of longevity, our farmers make decisions every day.

What is, where's that balance? What do we have to sacrifice and give up in order to achieve X? So they're, micro-managing that all the time. And then as a leader of an organization, I'm trying to look at the opportunities and, and what's there to serve our constituents, which are really farmers and food professionals and the Hudson valley.

And what's going to help them the most so that they can get that. So then that fosters fresh, healthy food on the plates of as many people in our communities as we can.

[00:38:21] Jenn: I like the idea of, um, focusing on doing no harm first. I think that's often a lens that, uh, can be missed. This is my last question for you, Kathleen, if we assume to the future is 2030 and the movement toward local food supplies has, you know, moved in the direction, uh, that you've envisioned.

How does shopping for food or thinking about food look different, you know, what could that future be? Yeah. 

[00:38:53] Kathleen: Yeah. I love this question. Um, So I think that what we would see I'm going to focus on the Hudson valley because that's where we work. But we would see working landscapes throughout the valley that are being stewarded with care.

Those stewards are a diverse set of farmers with, you know, not just white farmers, BiPAP farmers that are making a living by providing for them. Food for their communities. We have a, um, a national CSA subscription program that subsidized CS, CSA farmers, and minimizes the cost for folks to join a CSA so that every American can join a CSA.

Affordably and is eating there in their local food shed. And we are reaping the benefits of the health outcomes of that, of people getting fed. First of all, but getting fed with food that is really, really nourishing and that's affordable to, for. And my sense of this place is that people also have a sense of pride about the food in their region.

And that is part of how they think of where they live is what, what food scape is fostered. Um, so that's, that's a vision, 

[00:40:24] Jenn: just thinking about your vision. I'm all of a sudden, very hungry and craving a walk. I don't know. And to put dress. Yeah. That's such a beautiful vision and, uh, it's so refreshing to hear your perspective on, on how you're doing your part to make that vision happen.

[00:40:43] Kathleen: Thank you so much. What a fun conversation. Thank you.

[00:41:01] Jenn: thank you to Kat for joining us. You can learn more about her work by checking out the links in the episode. Distress. Or by visiting reed.co.com/the future in sound, the future in sound podcasts is written and hosted by general Elson and produced by Chris attaway. This podcast is brought to you by Rico and ESG software as a service company, helping clients achieve resilient, competitive advantage in the longterm.

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