Dr. Nicola Ranger: Ask for Policy

Dr Nicola Ranger is Head of Sustainable Finance Research for Development in the Oxford Sustainable Finance Group and Director of Climate and Environmental Analytics at the UK Centre for Greening Finance and Investment (CGFI). Nicola is passionate about advancing finance for sustainable, resilient and inclusive development. In this episode we discuss the nexus between business and government policy, greenwashing, resilient transition pathways and much more.

Related links: 

• David Attenborough - A Life on Our Planet 

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Brought to you by Re:Co, an ESG Software as a Service company helping clients achieve resilient competitive advantage in the long term.

Produced by Chris Attaway
Artwork by Harriet Richardson
Music by Cody Martin

Transcript

[00:00:00] Nicola Ranger: The rate of change that, that we need to achieve in global emissions and policy to prevent temperatures exceeding 1.5 degrees is huge. You know, every year that we delay, I don't think people realize the impact that that has actually. Because every year that you delay it means that you have to reduce even faster afterward and so it becomes less and less feasible incredibly quickly.

So it is really an urgency.

[00:00:39] Jenn Wilson: Welcome to the Future and Sound podcast. I'm your host, Jen Wilson. This is a podcast where we talk about prioritizing people. Planet and profit. In each episode, we speak with world-leading experts who help us see the future we want and our role in it.

This is episode 15: Ask for policy.

[00:01:12] Quick story.

[00:01:16] I remember sitting in class early in grad school. I think it was the first called Climate Week, and I remember we had multiple classes on the deep climate science trajectories, what was driving climate change, and then perhaps on the fourth day or so, we had a professor standing at the front of the room who started to talk about “actors” when it came to climate management.

He simplified the landscape into three main groups, civil society, business and government, and although that's very simplistic, I remember thinking at the time that this really clarified a way of thinking about the climate talks, because I had often felt in the early two thousands, mid two thousands, that when the Kyoto negotiations started to stall, or there were challenges that increased, pressure would be applied on business.

And it struck me that when picturing these three groups, again, civil society, business, and government, I was sort of picturing them as three siblings that were arguing, pointing fingers when things weren't going as they'd hoped. And when I think about climate talks today, I still have this visual in my head.

And I must say that the guest on the show today specializes in helping business and government not only respond to civil society but also for business and government to perhaps, rather than pointing the finger at each other, walk together. So I think she has a really important point of view given where we are right now when it comes to climate change and net zero commitments.

Dr. Nicola Ranger is head of sustainable finance research for development at the Oxford Sustainable Finance Group. She's also senior researcher for the Smith School of Enterprise and the Environment. Nicola is passionate about advancing finance for sustainable, resilient, and inclusive development.

Within her work, she leads research on resilient finance, greening finance, and emerging and developing economies. Climate and environmental stress testing and scenario analysis. There's so much more that I could provide as an overview of Nicola's background, but what I want to do is get into this conversation.

We're at the perfect point to really start thinking as a business community. About the climate discussions that are going on at an international level, national level, and within our businesses or our financial institutions. Dr. Nicola Ranger, I am delighted to have you on the Future and Sound podcast. Welcome.

[00:04:13] Nicola: Good morning, Jen. It's lovely to be here. Thank you for the invitation. 

[00:04:17] Jenn: So, Nicola, you've been working in climate for decades. You've been doing research in this space. You've been deep in the science and the policy. Just as a starting point, from your standpoint, what has your career looked like over the past couple of decades, and how have you seen the discussion really shift? If it has shifted in your view? 

[00:04:39] Nicola: Well, it's definitely shifting. Hugely. So I started out as a PhD student in atmospheric physics. So my background is as a scientist and I studied at Imperial College and, then very, very fortunately, my first job was actually as the lead scientist on The Stern Review on the economics of climate change.

So that was in 2005, fresh from my PhD, sort of launched into working with 20 economists at treasury on the economics of climate change and things were very different then on climate change than they are now. Hugely different. You know, we were really sort of making the case for why treasuries, why business around the world should really care about climate change.

Um, because that economic case was not anywhere near as strong as it is today. So it was very different. And you know, on the business side there were certain clear leaders in that space that were very active at that time. But it was a much, much different dialogue with the business community.

It was much more, you know, convincing them why this was important. Why the economic benefits of acting were much, much greater than the costs. And then actually at that time, the costs of the transition that we would need were expected to be much greater than they are now. So there's been a change in knowledge as evidence is coming out more, and more evidence that actually it's hugely beneficial, this transition. So that whole understanding of the issue was very different, and the whole engagement with business was very, very different at that point. 

[00:06:19] Jenn: That's absolutely fascinating. And so when you say, you know, research is increasingly pointing to the benefits of the transition, was there a moment in your career where you really started to see a difference in the conversation or particular insights that started to click with business leaders? 

[00:06:36] Nicola: The Stern Review did show that the benefits of acting were significantly larger than the costs and put a strong case for that. But I think the transition to understanding the idea of green growth as being beneficial. So it was a couple of years after that and obviously, people like Nick Stern were very involved in that. And the new climate economy work that was done, which really pitched this not as a  “we just need to take this hit on costs and we get the benefits” to be much more, “this is a massive opportunity for a transition, which is going to lead to many, many benefits, both in terms of growth and development around the world, but, but also in terms of environmental sustainability “.

So there was that sort of, whole green growth narrative and all the evidence behind that really started around, you know, a couple of years after the Stern Review. So I guess sort of in advance of the Copenhagen Climate Conference, so sort of 2007, 2008. And that's just sort of strengthened now and there's just an increasing amount of research coming out. Just last week for example, from my colleagues at Oxford, looking at the energy transition and the costs involved in that and showing very clearly that if you look at actually what's happened, the costs of renewable energies, for example, have come down so much faster than was ever anticipated and way faster than we anticipated back in 2007. And so in it's very clear that this transition is happening much faster and in a much more beneficial way than anyone expected.

So yes, the narrative has really changed and I think has really now understood that and understood the opportunities, the huge opportunities from this transition as well. And I think that's been a sort of growing momentum. But on the financial institution side that I particularly work with, definitely around the sort of 2015 and the introduction of TCFD.

So 2015 to 2017, that was the really big moment I would say for the whole financial sector to get behind this and interacts in with the business side as well, and I think it's just driven a huge increase in momentum. 

[00:08:49] Jenn: That's really interesting. On the ESG side, I think the term was coined around 2007 in tandem with some of the UN principles for our responsible investment work.

And what's been really interesting to see, obviously between 2010 and 2018, there was quite a run for tech stocks, right? You know, and there's also this momentum around “Oh, our ESG screens are actually tied to our investment results”. We're seeing, obviously with a change in the geopolitical landscape, some pressure on ESG return than publicly traded markets.

I'm wondering, as we look at this longer-term trend, from your perspective, how are you seeing leading business thinkers really take a look at what are the macro trends versus the short-term trends? 

[00:09:44] Nicola: Yeah, there's a lot of interesting issues in those questions that you just raised.

So in, in terms of the current situation, it's radically changed how we think in many, many different ways. The current crisis as a starting point, we as a community always sort of saw that this transition would be a nice, smooth thing that would happen.

And, you know, we had different scenarios for that, some of which we'd act faster, some of which we'd act slower. But in all of those cases, it was nice, it was nice and smooth. And we didn't very, very foolishly, take into account that actually that's not how things work in practice. I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on this podcast or not, but I always say, shit happens, in the real world.

[00:10:34] Jenn: You're allowed, I'll, I'll allow it. I think especially within this context. 

[00:10:40] Nicola: So 0.1 is we need to recognize that this transition is not gonna be smooth and there will be shocks along the way and we need to prepare for that. So that's, that's a 0.1 learning, and you'll see there are many ways that are being responded to on that. So again, in the financial sector space that, you know, the ECB now is really accounting for shocks, not just a smooth transition in when it's in its dialogue with financial institutions around transition risk. So that's one point.

But I think the two other wider points you made are so what does this mean for business? It's been, I would say there's a real divergence in approaches that I'm seeing. So, you know, there are some firms that are really holding fast to, “we are gonna make this transition” and obviously the thing that's emerging from these crises is we need to build more secure energy systems and more secure food systems as part of the transition. So we cannot be dependent on fossil fuels, a sort of choke point on all of us, that we are still dependent on that. So it brings even an additional reason why we need to be, um, transitioning out of these fuels now and transitioning into a new way of producing energy and, similarly on food. 

So you know, a lot of people are focused on the energy story, but there's a food story here as well. In our food supplies have been disrupted by the crisis as well. We're seeing rising prices in supermarkets here, but actually for many countries around the world, this is having a devastating impact on food security.

So there's another story here, which I don't think has been as prominent, around the need to shift towards more resilient food systems. And you know, COVID has shown the need to shift towards more resilient supply chain. So this concept of we need both this transition, but it needs to be done in a resilient way. 

But in this divergence I mentioned, so some firms are really understanding that and seeing, seeing this as a long-term transition and are really sort of sticking to their guns in, you know, we are gonna keep investing in this transition even during this slightly difficult phase of higher interest rates.

But you know, you can make a good buck from investing in fossil fuels right now. Let's be, let's be frank, because they're making a lot of money out of shock at the moment, but some are really sticking to their guns on this, both in the business sector, in financial institutions, but some are not. You know, that there is a buck to be made at the moment and some funds are certainly taking a lot of advantage of that at the moment, but, I think this is just a natural part of this evolution in how we think about this.

And I think that the key point, as I said, is that we need to be ensuring that as policymakers and as business leaders, we are recognizing that there will be bumps in the road and we are preparing for that and we are sort of moving even faster and harder on making this transition. But you also made an interesting point about ESG and the role of ESG and all of this, which I think is a whole bigger issue that we are facing.

So, yes. At the moment, as a result of these current crises and some, should we say ESG stocks, ESG funds might be performing less well because they're not holding fossil fuels, which are making a good buck at the moment. Part of that is, as I mentioned, this recognition of the shocks, but there's also just this much, much bigger issue in how ESG works at the moment and how we actually measure ESG and the data that goes behind it.

And obviously, there's a whole other discussion at the moment around greenwashing, and around how we can better monitor what companies are doing and monitoring their emissions and their transition plans, which is another really big piece of this where I think we're gonna see some quite big evolution in the next year or so to help manage those issues.

[00:14:47] Jenn: I think the point about greenwashing is extremely important, and I'd love to dig into that a little bit more. So when we think about the next year, I want to come to COP in a little bit, but let's stick with ESG for a second and the next year. How can ESG investors and those who are wanting to engage with ESG push through this greenwashing?

What are the changes that are most important right now to ensure that ESG actually has the impacts that many hoped it would? 

[00:15:20] Nicola: Well, I think that, again, there are different companies doing different things. So there are many, many companies that really, really support greater sustainability and, the full ES and G of ESG for those groups of companies.

The issues there are, you know, how do we make sure that we're actually not greenwashing? That our intentions are feeding through into the decisions that are actually being made on the front lines, that we are monitoring things properly and that the regulation is in place. And then you have the other companies that actually are greenwashing that are seeing an opportunity to increase their client base to increase their fee rates through badging themselves as sustainable when actually they're not. 

And so, how do we deal with those two problems, they're two quite different problems. Obviously regulation is gonna play a really, really important role in that. And we're seeing a huge amount of evolution on that. 

So the FCA recently published its approach to labeling. The Europeans are doing very similar as well. So there's a lot happening on the regulatory front and I think there's a general agreement that that's sort of how we're gonna have to tackle this. There needs to be greater regulation of what actually is sustainable and what's not sustainable.

And again, there's the role of data in all of that. I should say I'm obsessed with data because my other role is director of analytics at the Center for Green Finance and Investments. So I'm very obsessed with it. To make these transitions, we need to understand what's going on on the ground. And to do that, you need the data.

[00:17:02] Jenn: At Re:Co, we love data too, so I'm gonna drill into that. But before I do, I just wanna say that  I think that you're spot on in terms of, obviously, we're talking about the economy and there are so many different types of business leaders and businesses out there. I would say that for the most part, what I am seeing is that sometimes greenwashing is the result of green wishing. So this idea is that you have a group of people (because ultimately businesses are groups of people) that make decisions who know that a change is required, and start with a bold ambition, which is common in business when it comes to innovation or longer-term ideas that businesses want to turn into reality.

This is so pressing though, that they’re coming to a net zero commitment without the full strategy. And don't get me wrong, you can have long-term elements of the strategy, but it's very important to have concrete steps on how targets are going to be achieved. And I think that the other piece to this is a bit of upskilling throughout organizations because, you know, Nicola, your skill set on the science and policy side, this stuff, you know, you live and breathe this.

And I'm talking to a lot of business leaders who just, they really, they're at that educational point. And they're realizing that now that they're seeing some of the headlines related to greenwashing, and I'm seeing you nodding, it sounds like this resonates.

[00:18:25] Nicola: It does. So the vast majority of businesses I speak to at all levels in those businesses are really, really passionate about making a positive change.

And maybe that's because the ones that are negative don't talk to me. But across a whole wide variety. So my focus at the moment is on financial institutions. I talk to, you know, small pension funds, large pension funds. Banks at all levels. I talk to insurers and everyone that I speak to is passionate about this.

But actually, the, as you put it, upskilling is absolutely critical. Because if you are, you know, I was recently part of a panel in Edinburgh to trustees of pensions funds who were all extremely passionate about this. But if you've spent your career training to be a trustee in a pensions fund you can't be expected to understand everything. And there was a real fear about, you know, you have all of this regulation coming, all of these expectations coming. You suddenly have to become a world-leading expert in ESG data and sustainability. And it's really, really hard. 

So there is a process that we need to go through in terms of building capacity and a process in terms of sharing knowledge and data and training. And I don't think we can expect that to happen overnight. And I think that's realistic, as you say. So that has to be a key focus.

I'd also like to pick up the role of public policy in this as well. We have to accept the reality that on a day-to-day basis, people have concerns other than climate and environmental sustainability over the long term. So what we need to do is put in place the frameworks that align their motivations and incentives in their day-to-day work with these long-term outcomes.

And part of that is about the business culture and it's about the targets that a business sets and setting a good transition plan and all of the right institutional incentives to guide that. But it also is a really important role of public policy as well in ensuring that on a short-term basis, the incentives for businesses are aligned with our societal goals in the long term, and that's where good public policy comes in. It's where fiscal policy around the role of carbon taxes and trading systems, all of these things that we hear about the public sector has to play its role in setting that enabling environment. And if that's missing, I don't think we can expect business to do all the work for us.

[00:21:03] Jenn: It's very interesting to bring this up now and I'd love to get into COP and, you know, an international level. Some of the trends that we're seeing are conversations that are being had. Obviously there are different levels of policy, international, national, regional. Let's start with international. So, obviously we are having this conversation during the COP conference, and listeners may be listening after a couple of additional headlines come out.

But I'm just wondering what are some of the themes that you're seeing come out of COP and what does it mean for business and finance leaders? 

[00:21:37] Nicola: Yeah, so we are what sort of 2 or ¾ of the way through COP at the time we're recording this. So we still haven't had the big statement at the end, but there's been a lot of discussion around what's actually gonna be in that statement.

What we're seeing is, which is what we always see, that it’s sort of two steps forward and one step back. So an example of this, you know, earlier in the week it was reported that Biden, the US had got on board with this language around, we are going to transition out of unabated oil and gas.

Which felt like a massive win because that's what business needs. Business needs that pathway to be set by policy. If the policymakers don't set that pathway, we can't expect business to do it on their own backs for good economic reasons. So that was a really big moment, I thought, and a number of countries then started to sort of crowd in behind that.

But then the latest we hear, in terms of the text, is that that language has disappeared. You know, maybe it'll come back again in the next couple of days. We don't know. But that's what we are seeing, and in a number of other areas as well on financing, again, we've seen some really important announcements like the report on net zero and how we define that.

We saw the launch of the transition plan taskforce guidance, so we've seen some really strong standards coming out. And we've seen a lot of business support for that. So actually we're sort of seeing parts of things that are moving really quickly, but then it translating into those global agreements is where I guess we are in the negotiations at this moment, and that's where everything can be won or lost really. And it's too early to say if it will be. But the key point is, and I've often been more or less skeptical, I must admit around the COPs, so I’ve been to them over the course of my career and sort of seen this kind of two steps back, two steps forward, five steps back, just happening. And, and it's very frustrating. It's so important because as soon as you get that language in that text, it gives a hook to business to act.

And you see the many, many statements from business being hooked on a particular word or phrase in an agreement and it just creates a really big transformation, which is why obviously, it's so hard to negotiate, but if they get it right, it has such an impact. And I'm really hoping we see some progress in the next couple of days on things like setting this recognition that we do need a transition out of unbated oil and gas, for example, being a critical one, that we lost at the last moment at COP26, and hopefully,  that happens at COP 27. But we should also note that within those international agreements, there are so many other important things like the role of developing countries that we haven't talked about, and the finance needs to help them adapt.

You know, all of that needs to be locked down as well in the next couple of days. 

[00:24:44] Jenn: So if you were to wave a magic wand, in terms of the sentence that provides the hook, what would be the top priority areas that you'd love to see in an agreement? I know it's difficult to say because it's a complex document, hundreds of pages, that's always produced and worked on through these negotiations, but in terms of those key statements and thinking about the pension funds and the financial leaders that you work with - what would really help you if you got it from policy makers to say, look, this is a signal. Let's move forward. 

[00:25:23] Nicola: I mean, there are so, so many because the copy's incredibly broad in its coverage.

But certainly, I think having a clear statement on oil and gas, because that was missing. And coal, there's a general recognition that it’s a bad thing and needs to be phased out, which is great, but for oil and gas particularly in the current environment, it is going to be really difficult to secure text on that.

But we need that recognition that to get to net zero, and this isn't an opinion, this is a scientific fact, to get to net zero, we need to be transitioning out of fossil fuels. And if we don't hit net zero by 2050, we have zero chance, or maybe statistically, maybe five, 10% chance. But in reality though, we have none.

The rate of change that we need to achieve in global emissions and policy to prevent temperatures exceeding 1.5 degrees is huge. You know, every year that we delay, I don't think people realize the impact that that has actually. Because every year that you delay it means that you have to reduce even faster afterward, and so it becomes less and less feasible incredibly quickly.

So over the course of my career - I first started producing these graphs of global emissions back in 2005. And you know, back in 2005, we could peak global emissions in 2015. Nice, smooth, smoothly coming down. And then every five years you produce another one, the chart gets steeper and steeper, and global emissions still haven't peaked. And there is a scientific factor, and that's why we always talk about, having targets based on the science. That's what we mean. And the science says we have to transition out of fossil fuels very clearly.

Sorry, that was a long, long point on that, but I think that's absolutely critical, particularly in the current economic situation. But there are so many others. You know, deforestation is so important for many, many reasons, including the emissions that come through deforestation and the feedback effects that we'll see. If we lose forests, which are just immense, it will accelerate warming. So we saw at COP26 some really strong statements from a number of countries on that, and a number of financial institutions, and that looks like it will be strengthened at COP27. So that's, that's positive. We're seeing more countries and you'll see in Brazil, for example, a strong statement from President Lula on that as well.

But then on the finance, the adaptation and mitigation finance for developing economies, we're still quite a long way away. There's been a lot of discussion at COP around, you know, we need to fundamentally transform the financial architecture, not just the private financial architecture, but the public finance and these calls for Bretton Woods, for example, and I think we have to take that incredibly seriously because the system is not working, it's very clear. So we do need to fundamentally rethink that. So I, I'm hoping that another outcome will be a process put in place. I should say that in COP language, there's always a process put in place, but a real process put in place that will actually do that. Or actually, fundamentally think about what does our financing architecture need to look like to enable us to make this transition that we have to.

[00:28:55] Jenn: And when it comes to the business leaders that are listening in, it's clear what the wishlist would be for COP. And some of those pieces will likely be in the final agreement for this year. Some may not. But for those who have ESG on their radar, and who want to do something meaningful in climate do you have any messages for them as they look at these headlines? In terms of really being part of the transition and what it means to be a strong leader in this space? 

[00:29:27] Nicola: I think that there's a number of things that need to be done, both within the organization itself as a leader, but then also externally.

It is so powerful to hear business leaders saying what they want to see from government to enable them to act.  I really feel, on the rare occasions I get to speak to CEOs and they ask me what, what they should do, that's what I always say. Now you need to stand up and you need to say, “my business industry, in general, wants to do this. To do this, we need you to set this enabling environment”, be it, you know, a clear target or some sort of financial support to enable us to invest in EV infrastructure. For example, electric vehicles. So there, there are some really specific things that we hear from many companies about what's needed. That there is so much power from business leaders standing up and, and saying that, and we've seen that, you know, we've seen that at COPs. So for example, Aviva has been really on the front foot at COPs saying to government, this is what we need. This is what this transition needs to look like.

This is our role in it. This is what we are going to do and this is what the policy environment needs to do to enable us to do that. And there are a number of other business leaders, and that is so powerful because government listens to that. Or depending on where we are in the election cycle, they listen to that maybe more than they listen to the public.

So I would say that first and foremost is to stand up and be bold and tell government, tell the international community what you need. But then within organizations it's, as we were talking about, making sure the right skills are in place, making sure the right incentive systems are there within a company.

Having it recognized that if, if you are making strong progress in areas related to ESG, that you are rewarded for that. So, you know, those incentive systems are in place at all levels of the company. I think those sorts of things. So it's both the internal and, and the external to the company that business leaders need to be thinking about.

[00:31:30] Jenn: I love the idea of standing up and speaking up about what policy you know you need in order to enact a strong net zero strategy in your business. I think that's so powerful In terms of data, I mean, you're passionate about data. That's an area that you've been researching for some time and you're looking at financial institutions, what data they need to make, uh, the transitions we've been discussing, where are the data gaps right now and how can we best address them?

[00:32:01] Nicola: Yeah. So on the side of mitigation, and I should say that there's a lot more we need to be thinking about than just mitigation, but on the side of mitigation, it's absolutely insane. It sounds insane, but most financial institutions do not have information at the level of individual companies that they're investing in or their banking, and nor does government, which is really scary.

So government itself doesn't know detailed information on the status of mitigation for the main companies. Everything relies on company's own disclosures at the moment, or mainly relies on that, so that's one of the key challenges. So firstly, we need better disclosures from companies on what their emissions are.

They're actually all sorts of problems around how you calculate those. Like, we talk about scope three emissions, so you know, across the whole value chain, which are really hard to calculate, but are really important. Transition plans is a really key one as well. So it's really hard to say is this company doing the right thing?

Unless they have a clear transition plan so you can see what they're planning to do and independently verify that as well. So once that information is disclosed, it can start guiding all sorts of financing and regulation, et cetera, that can help that path. So the disclosure of that information is critical.

The verification by third parties of that is really critical as well. And we're seeing lots of technology, that's you, you can actually measure emissions from space, for example, you know, there was a big launch at COP of Climate Trace, which you were seeing in the newspapers. These amazing images of where, sort of point by to point where the emissions are coming from. So those sorts of technologies are really important. So that's on the mitigation side. So measuring emissions better, having that data available. And verified in some way, and also these transition plans as well. But then again, mitigation is everything. So on the adaptation side we are a long, long, long way behind, and there's a huge amount that needs to happen there as well in terms of just understanding the risks that physical climate change will pose.

So that's a huge gap both to your own company, and also along your whole supply chain. And then on the wider ESG and, in particular, having the data available to understand how is my business impacting the environment, but also on wider society. And that's a key challenge at the moment.

So we do a lot with a bank called BBVA, for example, a huge Spanish bank, who are really, really passionate to do more on this, and have set clear goals in terms of their social responsibility. But actually being able to measure that is really, really hard.

So there are huge gaps in the data, on the social, wider social environmental impacts that are just missing and are not really talked about anywhere near as much as the mitigation side. And we need that to change too. 

[00:35:21] Jenn: That's really powerful. And I think that one of the questions that I often get from clients is to this point about on the mitigation side. Companies often don't have the data at their fingertips. So, you know, how do I get my scope one, two, and three emissions calculated in a straightforward way? And, you know, there are estimates that can be made, but more and more it's critical that we have activity-based calculations done. And what I often advise is, really don't let perfection be the enemy of the goods. Let's start somewhere. Let's get a baseline and let's continue to move towards a better and better assessment. The key is that we're taking action in tandem with doing those calculations. And I wonder what your take is on that because it can be a bit overwhelming depending on, you know, we've even worked with companies that are 5 billion in revenue, who’ve just done a baseline assessment and have hundreds of sites, and it's just that feeling of overwhelm for them. But then once we get started, then it's like anything, you have that baseline and every year it's just about pushing it further. 

[00:36:34] Nicola: I totally, totally agree. I think there's a huge amount that you can do without having perfect data, and perfect data is an illusion. We're never gonna have perfect data. But that, you know, there's just simple things, simple changes that can be made. You don't need the perfect data to do that. And I do think that there's a risk at the moment, and we've seen this in conversations with many businesses. Regulation is pushing us at the moment towards needing even better data. And you know, there's been a lot of concern from business leaders around the risks that they would face in getting it wrong. And that sort of could be slowing things down potentially. So we could see the sort of perverse effect that regulation is potentially making things worse. Because people don't want to get it wrong. So they, you know, do perhaps less than it would otherwise. And I think we need to address that. Head on the EU taxonomy is an example of that, that we hear a lot from businesses about, you know, the huge amount of data that you need to analyze against all of these different policy investment type archetypes, estimating their emissions to a very high level.  I heard 60,000 data points, you need to comply with the EU taxonomy if you wanted to do it fully. So, you know, there's a real challenge at the moment.

[00:38:02] Jenn: Absolutely. My final question for you, Nicola, is, you know, obviously you've been in this space for quite some time. Many who will be listening are new to climate science and climate policy. What I often love to ask interviewees is about books that have really informed their point of view, uh, that has been really inspiring in their career. And I'm wondering if you have a book that's really resonated with you on your path, in your work that you'd recommend to them.

[00:38:34] Nicola: That’s a really hard question. So many wonderful books. Well,  I have to call out David Attenborough. I know it's an obvious one, but yeah, his most recent book last year and, and just everything he does on this.

So, you know, I, I have two, two children and trying to explain to them why climate change, they're quite young, so explain them why climate change is important is extremely difficult, but you sit them down in front of a David Attenborough documentary, particularly the David Attenberg documentary with Greta Thunberg, and they just got it immediately like, you know, mummy, we need to start eating veggie burgers, et cetera. Maybe in terms of a sort of communication tool, I would say that. But the key thing is just building up that understanding and the passion for why sustainability is important. I think there's so many details about how you do it, et cetera, but actually, once you have that passion and the understanding, that's absolutely critical.

[00:39:35] Jenn: Passion and understanding. I completely agree with you. Look, it has been such a pleasure, Nicola, to have you on this podcast. Thank you for joining. 

[00:39:43] Nicola: Thank you very much.

[00:39:58] Jenn: Thank you to Nicola for joining. You can learn more about her work by checking out the links in this episode description or by visiting re.co.com/the Future and Sound. The Future and Sound Podcast is written and hosted by Jen Wilson and produced by Chris Attaway. This podcast is brought to you by Re:Co, a software as a service company, helping clients achieve resilient, competitive advantage in the long term.

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