Dillon Hargrave: Uniquely Embodied

Join us in this episode of the Future in Sound podcast where we welcome Dillon Hargrave, a seasoned entrepreneur and the founder of Sauntermore, a nonprofit focused on empowering people with disabilities to excel in leadership roles. With over two decades of experience harnessing his entrepreneurial spirit, creativity, and the unique insights gained from living with right hemiparesis since birth, Dillon has dedicated himself to guiding leaders from the disabled community to realise their full potential through tailored coaching and consultancy.

In this episode, Dillon delves into the critical importance of integrating technology to boost employment for people with disabilities, the need for genuine diversity in corporate settings, and the strategic advantages of incorporating inclusive practices into business operations. Join us as we explore how these approaches not only foster a more inclusive society but also drive innovative business solutions.

Related links: 

• The Julian Way, Justin Hancock

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This podcast is brought to you by Re:Co, a tech-powered advisory company helping private market investors pursue sustainability objectives and value creation in tandem. 

Produced by Chris Attaway
Artwork by Harriet Richardson
Music by Cody Martin

Transcript

Dillon: There's an ongoing debate that we have within the disability community. And there's even, there's, there's a range of opinions on it. And that's to say, you know, disability as inspiration porn, you know, your story, this story is so inspiring. The most important thing is not that people are inspired. But they're inspired to take action. It doesn't matter quite so much to me what the action is, as long as people do start to take action.

Jenn: Welcome to the future and sound podcast. I'm your host, Jenn Wilson. This is a podcast where we discuss people, planet, and profit. In each episode, we'll learn from world leading experts who can help us see the future we want. And our role in it. This is episode 29, Uniquely Embodied.

Dylan Hargrave is a seasoned entrepreneur with a diverse background. Over the course of the past 25 years, he's honed his creativity, entrepreneurial prowess and resilience. All of this has been enriched by the unique perspective of living with the daily realities of right hemiparesis resulting from a pre birth stroke like experience, he's refined his expertise in leadership and community development through radical vulnerability and the emphasis on personal ecology.

I am absolutely delighted to speak with you today, Dylan. Welcome to the Future in Sound podcast.

Dillon: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I'm delighted to be here.

Jenn: I was wondering, Dylan, do you mind introducing yourself?

Dillon: Yeah, sure. I'd love to. So, my name is Dylan Hargrave, and I am from Tulsa, Oklahoma. My occupation is that I consider myself kind of a coach and a consultant, and I work with an organisation that I created called Sauntermore. And Sauntermore as an organisation specifically targets leaders living with disabilities, and we journey with them on their path of full potential. And what I do primarily as the founder of Sauntermore is I work with different leaders across industries who are really interested in exploring how to best lead considering that they have what I describe as unique embodiments, which is to say a disability that was either caused at or after birth really, or even before in my case.

Jenn: So interesting because this audience is used to hearing from business leaders who are either investors looking at investing in businesses or executives of businesses. And we're used to talking about the topic of diversity and inclusion. I think you have a really unique perspective on this and I'd love to hear how you think about terms like diversity and inclusion.

Dillon: Yeah, you know, it's really interesting that you asked that particularly right now. And I recognize that you are in London and I'm sure you have a very, um, global audience. And, you know, I'm speaking to you from the middle of the United States, Tulsa, Oklahoma. And, you know, to not get too political where DEI or diversity, equity, and inclusion are words that are very much hot button topics and many people say are under attack.

So I spent a lot of time thinking about what do we mean - what really do we mean when we say diversity, equity, or inclusion, right? And for me, when I think of all these things, I honestly put a very personal lens to it. Because not only am I a person who is living with a disability, I have other people living with different types of disabilities in my immediate family.
I am also a multicultural person, and I have a multicultural family. So, whenever I fill out, like, the census here in the United States, I'm occasionally offered the opportunity to explain more how I would describe all this makeup. And I say contemporary North American, right? And my point is to say is that I get my value from what I see is my own ability to include all of my diverse parts in my identity as a leader.

And I believe that when we think about diversity, equity, inclusion at an organisational level. We need to be thinking about how we can integrate all of the diverse parts from our stakeholders and our communities that we serve as a way to make longer lasting, more impactful business models.

Jenn: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and I'd actually really love to get into stakeholders in just a moment. And before we do, I'd love to hear, you know, when you're talking to business leaders about inclusion, what are some of the key messages that you share?

Dillon: Yeah. When I talk to business leaders about inclusion, you know, some of the key messages I share. You know, I think to try to kind of think about maybe some of the more technical things we've seen recently, I would say that one of the bigger things that I've been watching, and I think a lot of people who, those of us who work within the disability space have been watching, has been the increase of the use of technology, like Zoom meetings in professional spaces and we've actually seen an increase of people with disabilities being employed for the first time in a very, very long time, in my lifetime, at least. And that's something that is really interesting. I think that more importantly, when I get the opportunity to really have a heart to heart or talk to leaders about these things, is I think one of the really unique things that I've learned in my experience has been that, and I will admit that I'm coming, from a background where I identified as an entrepreneur, as a business leader, way before I identified as somebody who lived with a disability. And as a part of that, I really bought into this hustler mindset. There's not enough, never enough idea of how to lead a business, how to lead myself. And what I've learned by working with people with disabilities is to say that things will take longer if we're being intentional about including people living with disabilities in terms of how we work through the process of our business. But what I have been really pleasantly surprised by when I've gone through these processes is that by slowing down those processes, it allows for more authentic work to be created, which actually allows for more authentic outcomes. As opposed to just trying to rush through something as a way to say that we, you know, are feeding what I would call our addiction to productivity, just to get things done, just to check off the box or to fill up our calendar.

And so that's something I like to bring up as a way to really allow people to start thinking about what is the opportunity in the long term by being more inclusive of people living with disabilities in leadership positions specifically in the workplace.

Jenn: Dylan, what's an example of slowing down and getting more authentic outcomes?

Dillon: The best example I can give from my direct experience has been in a recent chapter of my career, specifically as a virtual assistant and executive coach of a disability ministry here in the United States. And that ministry is a nonprofit and whenever I started working with them, had a fiscal sponsor and as 1 of the 1st products that I helped them get through, we wanted to get them to become their own standalone 501C3, which requires a tremendous amount of paperwork and bureaucracy

Jenn: for international. Sorry, Dillon for international listeners. What's a 501?

Dillon: Okay. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to clarify. They wanted to become their own standalone nonprofit, which is to say they wanted to get their own tax designation here in the United States that allowed them to to become their own entity. And then they would no longer have to be sponsored by another, uh, organisation that allows them to operate basically under their fiscal authority. I'm not a lawyer, don't quote me on some of those things, but that's the basic idea. Does that help?

Jenn: You wanted to become a non profit on their own.

Dillon: Got it. I appreciate it. So the point is to say is that, you know, I had started a couple of businesses. I had been involved in some nonprofits. I'd never actually started or helped anybody do this process. So I think that one of the things I was really surprised by was that it took a lot longer, but it made sense that it took longer to me. Once we actually got through the process is because it required the me and the founder who has cerebral palsy and I work with him mostly to help him do his email and correspondence, but we had to read through as a team all of these documents as opposed to just having one person designated to accomplishing these goals. Which allowed us to be a lot more confident whenever we were able to get through the process that we had done it correctly and that nothing was missed, that our T's were crossed and our I's were dotted. And I think that that is what I would call a more authentic outcome for that process as opposed to saying, we're going to give it to this one person and they're going to do it. We're going to trust that they do it and we want them to get it done as quickly as possible because ultimately, you know, we have, we've set this goal and I would say that to be fair, there is an argument for the planning fallacy and my timeline that I set with it, but I think that for the sake of giving an example, that most organisations I think would have wanted that task to be accomplished in a much faster timeline than it was.
But I think that there was a richness through the process that allowed for us to be able to have a lot more, they'll be saying that the founder in particular expressed a great deal of relief when it was accomplished and a great sense of accomplishment for having done it with the team, even though it took twice as long as we thought it would originally.
Does that make sense?

Jenn: It really does. And, you know, I'm just thinking about real life examples in my, um, in my world. So having dealt with legal contracts and, you know, sometimes you have sort of internal controls or checks and balances on contracts. However, it can take much longer if you don't get the right input at the right time. So you run forward with a contract that you think looks good, and it goes a couple of steps. And then somebody who should have been involved at the beginning says, hold on a second, we need to start from scratch. And you, you know, incur additional legal fees. And so, you know, I do think that there's something about collaboration here that's sort of interesting and there are parallels even outside of, you know, diverse abilities, like we're talking about today.

Dillon: For sure. I totally agree with you and I think something that they're kind of maybe a bigger bucket or chunking up a little bit, you know, I've even had this conversation even with my mom is to say that as somebody who's lived with disability, we're a lot more open to asking for help and being real intentional about what we're asking for and how we ask and when we allow ourselves to receive that help that is ultimately going to bring new information to the table that allows us to the table. You know, take another look at whatever decision we're making. And that inevitably is going to take more time, but we should have better outcomes.

Jenn: It's really interesting. We were talking on the podcast, Eric Collins, who started a fund here in the UK called ImpactX, and they invest in underrepresented founders. And the way he described it was that if you have to have a lot of resilience through life, it's almost like when you exercise, and I know you're a big exerciser, you go through strain and that builds muscle and strength. For the next step that you take. And so he's actually had some European, global and European leading investments in terms of return by targeting, say, you know, black twins who are overlooked by other investors and he invested in them. And now they're, you know, unicorns kind of thing. And I wonder just as you describe, you know, being more, you know, open, being more open to asking for help, et cetera. If that resilience element also comes into the conversation from your perspective.

Dillon: Yeah, without a doubt, you know, and I mean, I could probably spend the next 40 minutes just talking about that alone, because I was, I'm very passionate about it.
And that's just a way to allow me, I'm saying that out loud, there's a way to say, let's keep it tight and keep it pointed. But I will say, I'll start by saying, I do remember hearing that on the podcast and I was really, I was really happy to hear that. And that was one of the reasons why I was eager to have this conversation with you, because I knew kind of where the podcast conversation was coming from, and I really do agree with that. And I think that my initial takeaway is actually coming from a little bit of a different orientation because one of my other contracts is as a casting director for an investment firm here in the United States. And in that role, I talked to business owners from all over the country, from all different industries, all different stages of business. And I do that, you know, talk to 25 to 30 people a week. And I will say that there is a, certainly in my experience, and I don't have a direct tally, so don't ask for the details, but my experience is to say that there is a much higher representation of people who identify as living with a disability in the entrepreneurial community. Then there is the established economy, I would say. And that's to say that I talked to so many people who say, I went through so many challenges that created such a resilience in me, that starting a business seemed like something that I could accomplish and, or they take that part of their story and say, that's why I was successful in creating this firm and creating this product or service or growing it to this degree, right. So I would say that it's been my experience and I would say as an entrepreneur who lives with a disability myself, I've learned how to have a tremendous amount of resilience that I've carried over into all of my roles, whether in my own businesses or working for other businesses that have allowed me to thrive. And I will say that one of the reasons why I have leaned so heavily into entrepreneurship is that there have been organisations and bureaucracies and elements of existing businesses that I've run up against that I can define as brittle, maybe, and not resilient. That have been painful to me to a degree to where I don't want to be in those organisations anymore, because I think that resilience and ability to come back and to even adjust and make, to really more effectively consider who you, what I would say the human element. It's critical. And I think that as humans, we all have to be resilient. Some of this is just required to do so more throughout their lives and others through a specific circumstance and conditions.

Jenn: Hey, it's Jenn. I just wanted to take a quick moment to let you know a bit about Re:Co and what we do. We're a tech enabled advisory firm that helps private market investors and companies measure sustainability metrics. Using our software platform, we also help you to set targets and focus your efforts on sustainability areas that really matter for your business.
And finally, we help clients to translate all of this work into your core value creation strategy or your business model. Check us out at Re.Co.com to get in touch. All right, now back to our conversation. 

So what does excellence look like? Say if you're looking at a medium sized business and they are absolutely nailing inclusion from your perspective, what are some of the things that you see in a business that's truly excellent in this regard?

Dillon: Yeah, it's a great question. I really appreciate that at this point in time in the conversation because it does allow me to paint a picture for people about what it does look like to get it right. And I think that's a great opportunity and a blessing for me to do that. And so I think what excellent looks like is… not only do, as an organisation, as a medium sized organisation, do you create an authentic environment of welcome for people living with disabilities, which is to say is that they feel like they belong at the organisation, which is very complicated, and I will say that It's best to be intentional and take your time on and ask for feedback about how you are successful in achieving that, but that's just the foundational element. I think that more importantly, people need to feel like they belong and they need to feel like they can contribute to that organisation in a meaningful way to the degree, and this is where the excellence piece comes in, to the degree to which there are clear pipelines for advancements into leadership for those people with disabilities. That they aren't just being pigeonholed in a specific role or a specific responsibility that they are seeing that they have the opportunities to create growth for them professionally. Does that make sense?

Jenn: Yeah, that makes sense. When we talk about sustainability and responsible investment in some of these concepts more broadly, ESG,   which I know has also been politicised in the United States as a term, but still, you know, the social and governance pieces. We think a lot about how do we embed that into the core of the business and to core strategy rather than it sort of being a peripheral or siloed approach. So, I mean, we would never bring a regular employee into a business and not think about their progression. People are always moving and growing. And so it strikes me as odd that you would bring a cohort in and not and not think about growth. So that's a really important point that you've just brought up Dillon.

Dillon: Thanks, I appreciate that. And I will say kind of in a parallel, maybe there's a little bit back to, you know, the, the brittle nature of certain business models and policies and structures that I've seen is to say that. If somebody has a, has a medical emergency and needs to take some time off as an example, uh, maybe they take off a one or two more days than they were allowed. Right. And then they, this is, I'm taking this from a direct example from my network is to say, then they are more or less forced to resign because they are no, they no longer feel like they're welcome in the organisation. That organisation then has to pay to replace them. And I think that far too often, and I've been working a lot more within the workforce space. People forget how much, how expensive it is to replace those people, you know? And I think that that's, that's what we forget about these policies that say you have to do, you have to show up in this seat for eight hours a day, for four hours a week, and now, or else, you know, you lose your job, well then it's gonna cost you another $30,000 or however much money to fill that again. And was it really worth it to have that policy in place for you to then have to go back and look for somebody else? And that's a question that's changing constantly for every organisation over time in every industry. But I think that it's important that we start to think about these things in a more holistic fashion.

Jenn: As you turn your mind to the next five to 10 years, what would you like to see in terms of, you know, trends and practices surrounding uniquely embodied individuals in business?

Dillon: I think similarly to the goals of people in other marginalised communities, I would like to see more direct representation and leadership. You know, I think in the next 5 to 10 years, it is possible for us to have, roughly, this is the quoted number in large, 25 percent of the population lives with some sort of disability. We should have 25 percent of people in roles of leadership in our medium to large organisations, specifically, who are living with disability.
And I think that, that would be great. Both an impressive and yet an achievable outcome in the, in that timeframe.

Jenn: One of the things that we're seeing increased conversation around here in the UK, and I'm sure it's global is some of the diverse cognitive, some call it disabilities, but say, you know, ADHD or dyslexia or, you know, different. So when you're speaking about, you know, differences, like how, what's encompassed in that?

Dillon: Yeah, it's a question that always comes up and I will say, I refer to those, those people as my neuro spicy friends may, may not be a little bit neuro spicy myself. And I will say that, you know, ultimately, I mean, I will say I spent years asking myself that question whenever I was kind of hit with it in my face about how do I identify as somebody with a disability?
How have I integrated that in my own identity? What does that mean for me when I look at, you know, my community outside people I spend time with? I would say that it's ultimately, I like to think of disability, and my organisation is built with this as a foundational value, is defining disability in the most encompassing way possible. Which is just to say, if you can define your experience in a way that says, whether it's through my physical embodiment, or through my cognitive makeup, however, I perceive my moving through the world or through my professional life is affected by this specific outcome that I've identified that's resulted to either my how I perceive that I'm moving through the world or how I physically move through the world, then that should be something that should be considered, and that should be something that should be explored and should be supported in, you know, and accommodation for that. Right. Even if it means you should be able to bring your crochet kit to your desk. Right. For some of my, my neuro spicy friends who, who have stimming things, right. They, that should be considered. So I think ultimately as a way to not get overly verbose, because I think that starts to get away from the point is to say, defining it in a way that's most encompassing possible and allows whoever the person is, who's with the lived experience, is allowed to express that in a way that's meaningful to them and allows them to be more integrated in their personal and professional lives or live to their fullest potential. As I say,

Jenn: live to your fullest potential and just honour, you know, what people are experiencing for themselves. I think that that makes a lot of sense. And Dylan, I wanted to come back to your point about stakeholders earlier. So one of the things that we're seeing here in the EU, quite an advanced policy called, you know, the CSRD here in Europe, where companies are being asked to report on quote unquote material ESG factors, meaning elements of sustainability,
social governance, et cetera, areas that are not only material to the company itself financially, but also material to stakeholders. And I'm just wondering if you can walk us through when you think about stakeholder engagement and how to identify stakeholders from a business perspective, what are some of the elements that you think through

Dillon: When I think of stakeholders…You know, I think of anybody who has a vested interest in the outcome of the organisation's activities, right? When I say vested interest in the outcome, I think specifically, I mean, you think of, we'll get academic for a second, right? So the most direct stakeholders are either the employees or management or ownership of the organisation and the customers, right? That's the, those are, those are some of the, the big bucket stakeholders. Also, what I think that people should be more aware of, and I think that we are bad about this in general, is, is what what are the activities of that business affecting in, in that community where that business is affecting, you know, where are you doing business and, and who are the auxiliary networks that are being affected by that. And I think that if you can maybe more broadly define stakeholders in a similar way to more broadly defining living with disabilities, then that allows for better narratives around what I understand you're defining as material, uh, benefit.

Jenn: It's just interesting 'cause it, that is, that is an area that basically everybody's thinking through how to define it, right? Like, how do we define our stakeholders? And I just, you know, I had the sense that you would have a nuanced approach to that. So.

Dillon: Well, and I mean, I can be a little bit more specific too, because I feel like I'm being a little bit high level and I, I don't, I like to be more specific when I can. You know, I think of just the, the show that we filmed them a casting director for we film it here in the city where I live, although it's, it's produced by an investment firm that's not from the state, but we film it in a place and we have contractors who work for the organisation, both coming from outside of the city and from within the city. And then inevitably, the money that goes into that production is dispersed throughout those various locations, right? So when you start to be particular about stakeholders, even for that one production, that one business, or that one product or service of a business model, then it starts to become very expansive. Right. So, I mean, I think that the, I would say maybe is a way to hedge myself a little bit. I would say just to be intentional about where, maybe kind of how you weight the impact maybe, because I think that, you know, that should be considered as well. You don't just want to say everybody that every action, every dollar touches should be considered the same. I understand the complex nature of it, and it's certainly something that we should probably be talking a lot more about.

Jenn: And if listeners were to do one thing differently tomorrow, after listening to this conversation, what action do you think they should take?

Dillon: This question leads me kind of into an ongoing debate that we have within the disability community. And there's even, there's, there's a range of opinions on it. And that's to say, you know, disability as what they define or what some people define as inspiration porn. You know, your story, this story is so inspiring. Okay. Right. And some people take great offence to it and some people don't. Right. And some people are happy about those things. I think what I have understood in my experience in my journey to this point is to say that the most important thing is not that people are inspired, but they're inspired to take action.
And to that point, I think that it's so rare that people are inspired to take action in a way to meaningfully engage within their own personal and professional lives. Relationships in a way that is more accessible and is more welcoming of people with disabilities, that doesn't really matter to me, and I think a lot of us in this space, what that action is.
It's just that they take intentional action. Is that they hear the story and then they do move to act. They do move to Think about, okay, well, you know, and, and I'll just speak, uh, stayed away from it intentionally to this point, but for the, in the United States, we have the ADA or the Americans with Disabilities Act is, it's an, it could be as simple as saying, are we really up to code?
Does our door really open when we push the button, right? How do we, how do we deal with that from our facilities management perspective? It could be that simple, right? Or it could be. Even more complex is to say, how do I actively recruit and engage and train people living with autism? For example, let's get specific, but it doesn't matter quite so much to me what the action is, as long as people do start to take action.

Jenn: That's really helpful. Thank you. And, and my, one of my favourite questions to ask on this podcast is, uh, my final question for you, Dylan, and that's, if you had to name one book that particularly shaped your perspective, what book would that be?

Dillon: It's a good question, and I'm glad I was able to think about this a little bit beforehand.
Um, but the answer came to me immediately, because it's very specific, and it jumps out at me because I actually currently work for the author as a consultant. It is the Founder of the Disability Ministry out of Dallas wrote a book that tremendously impacted my journey called the Julian way, which is also the name of the organisation. The subtitle of the book is a theology of fullness for all of God's people. And that really impacted me as a way to understand really the work that has been done historically around disability, social justice, specifically within the religious communities. As well as really what is going on today and in the next five to 10 years in that movement and the opportunities that exist. And so that's the book that, and I bought it, I think I bought them out on Amazon, at least at one point in time. And I've given that book away to so many people because I think it's foundational to begin conversations around anti ableism to understand the models of disability and how they impact people and the work that has been done historically, which there's, I would say, tragically little of, but you know, as a way to, to, for those of us who like to have an intellectual model for things to move forward.

Jenn: Dillon, thank you so much for joining us on the Future in Sound podcast.

Dillon: You're welcome. Thank you for having me. It's been my pleasure.

Jenn: The Future and Sound Podcast is written and hosted by Jenn Wilson and produced by Chris Attaway. This podcast is brought to you by Re:Co, a tech powered advisory company helping private market investors pursue sustainability objectives and value creation in tandem. If you enjoyed this podcast, don't forget to tell a friend about it.
And if you have a moment to rate us in your podcast app, we'd really appreciate it. Until next time, thanks for listening.