{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.148,"endTime":3.63,"body":"My guest for this episode is a member of the Creativity Found"},{"startTime":3.69,"endTime":7.492,"body":"Collective, a promotional and networking membership for"},{"startTime":7.672,"endTime":11.354,"body":"artists and crafters who share their creative skills with grown-ups"},{"startTime":11.614,"endTime":14.956,"body":"through workshops, online courses, products and"},{"startTime":15.096,"endTime":19.779,"body":"kits. There's a link to their page at creativityfound.co.uk. And"},{"startTime":19.839,"endTime":25.042,"body":"if you too would like to join us, visit creativityfound.co.uk slash"},{"startTime":34.84,"endTime":38.122,"body":"Having been really encouraged in primary school and loving to"},{"startTime":38.162,"endTime":41.485,"body":"draw, that was what I did for hours at home. Got into secondary school,"},{"startTime":41.725,"endTime":44.947,"body":"had an art teacher who said I wasn't very good, and I thought, oh"},{"startTime":44.967,"endTime":48.109,"body":"well, that's that then. I was just constantly in"},{"startTime":48.169,"endTime":51.372,"body":"trouble for insubordination. I really,"},{"startTime":51.412,"endTime":54.734,"body":"really was. But it was during my time in the armed forces that"},{"startTime":54.754,"endTime":57.946,"body":"I did learn to paint. And then a group of parents actually came"},{"startTime":57.966,"endTime":61.667,"body":"to me and said, the kids are loving it. There's dance classes. There's acting"},{"startTime":61.707,"endTime":65.169,"body":"classes. There's football classes. There's no art class. Will you do"},{"startTime":65.209,"endTime":68.55,"body":"an art class? And I said, absolutely no way. I've got"},{"startTime":68.73,"endTime":71.892,"body":"four kids. I've got four kids under 11. I"},{"startTime":71.932,"endTime":74.993,"body":"haven't been to the toilet on my own for five years. I"},{"startTime":75.113,"endTime":78.275,"body":"cannot possibly start an art class. But"},{"startTime":78.295,"endTime":81.491,"body":"I did anyway. Because of how I learned to draw"},{"startTime":81.511,"endTime":84.714,"body":"and paint, I've always wanted to have drawing and painting for those who"},{"startTime":84.734,"endTime":87.876,"body":"think they can't, because it changed my life and it has brought me"},{"startTime":90.545,"endTime":94.146,"body":"Hi, I'm Claire, founder of Creativity Found, a"},{"startTime":94.206,"endTime":98.107,"body":"community for creative learners and educators, connecting adults"},{"startTime":98.247,"endTime":101.408,"body":"who want to find a creative outlet with the artists and"},{"startTime":101.448,"endTime":104.969,"body":"crafters who can help them do so with workshops, courses,"},{"startTime":105.469,"endTime":108.75,"body":"online events and kits. For this podcast, I"},{"startTime":108.81,"endTime":112.592,"body":"chat with people who have found or re-found their creativity"},{"startTime":112.832,"endTime":116.594,"body":"as adults. We'll explore their childhood experiences of"},{"startTime":116.634,"endTime":120.357,"body":"the arts, discuss how they came to the artistic practices they"},{"startTime":120.417,"endTime":124.239,"body":"now love, and consider the barriers they may have experienced between"},{"startTime":124.279,"endTime":127.702,"body":"the two. We'll also explore what it is that people"},{"startTime":127.782,"endTime":132.125,"body":"value and gain from their newfound artistic pursuits, and"},{"startTime":132.205,"endTime":135.908,"body":"how their creative lives, in which they're practical, necessary"},{"startTime":136.328,"endTime":139.692,"body":"everyday lives. For this episode, I'm"},{"startTime":139.732,"endTime":143.273,"body":"chatting with Joanne Robinson, who has the armed forces and"},{"startTime":143.313,"endTime":146.433,"body":"a broken back to thank for her return to drawing and"},{"startTime":146.453,"endTime":149.874,"body":"painting. And her realisation that you can be taught how"},{"startTime":149.914,"endTime":153.175,"body":"to draw is the inspiration behind the online drawing and"},{"startTime":153.215,"endTime":156.815,"body":"painting course for adults that she runs as just one aspect"},{"startTime":157.015,"endTime":160.436,"body":"of the Little Art School. Hi, Joanne, how are"},{"startTime":161.036,"endTime":164.296,"body":"Hi, Claire, I'm very well, thank you. Thank you for inviting me"},{"startTime":168.099,"endTime":171.304,"body":"You're very welcome. Tell me first about the"},{"startTime":172.747,"endTime":176.633,"body":"There's this myth that you're either"},{"startTime":176.693,"endTime":180.274,"body":"born able to draw and paint or not. And the"},{"startTime":180.314,"endTime":183.756,"body":"Little Art School's whole basic tenet is that anyone can learn this."},{"startTime":184.016,"endTime":187.258,"body":"It is a taught skill. And not only can they learn it, but"},{"startTime":187.298,"endTime":190.54,"body":"it makes you feel amazing. It builds your self-esteem and"},{"startTime":190.56,"endTime":194.182,"body":"it brings the most incredible joy. That's it in a nutshell. We"},{"startTime":194.223,"endTime":197.324,"body":"can teach anyone from age five to 105. And we have students who are"},{"startTime":197.344,"endTime":201.567,"body":"five and we have students Not"},{"startTime":202.368,"endTime":205.591,"body":"105 yet, but we have got students in their late 90s. And we've been"},{"startTime":205.611,"endTime":208.854,"body":"going for 10 years. We've just celebrated our 10 year anniversary and we've"},{"startTime":208.894,"endTime":212.257,"body":"taught thousands and thousands of people how"},{"startTime":212.337,"endTime":215.66,"body":"to draw and paint. And it's brought enormous joy to"},{"startTime":215.7,"endTime":219.123,"body":"them. And I'm a passionate believer in it. And as well as the Little"},{"startTime":219.163,"endTime":222.346,"body":"Art School, which is a business where we teach children in"},{"startTime":222.386,"endTime":225.568,"body":"studios, we teach adults online. We also have"},{"startTime":225.628,"endTime":228.911,"body":"two charities, one where we teach people living"},{"startTime":228.951,"endTime":232.333,"body":"with dementia. It's called the Dementia Arts Trust. We use"},{"startTime":232.433,"endTime":235.875,"body":"drawing and painting. It's very much about what you can do"},{"startTime":236.235,"endTime":239.377,"body":"still. A dementia diagnosis often comes with, you can't do this,"},{"startTime":239.397,"endTime":243.02,"body":"you can't do this. It's about, well, you can draw and paint and it's magic"},{"startTime":243.12,"endTime":246.342,"body":"what we do with Dementia Arts Trust. And we also have a charity called"},{"startTime":246.362,"endTime":249.584,"body":"the Little Art Stars where we use specifically drawing and painting. It's"},{"startTime":249.604,"endTime":253.027,"body":"a very structured course. We teach children who are struggling"},{"startTime":253.047,"endTime":256.711,"body":"with trauma, often loss, grief, and"},{"startTime":256.791,"endTime":260.134,"body":"we use that therapeutic nature of art to"},{"startTime":260.194,"endTime":263.377,"body":"really build their self-esteem. We also work in areas of high"},{"startTime":263.438,"endTime":266.841,"body":"socioeconomic deprivation, and we use art for that. So"},{"startTime":267.201,"endTime":270.885,"body":"that's in a nutshell what we do, what we've been doing for 10 years. It's"},{"startTime":273.233,"endTime":276.415,"body":"In a nutshell, but there's a lot to it. Well done. It's wonderful to"},{"startTime":276.475,"endTime":280.157,"body":"hear about the various different ways that you can take what"},{"startTime":280.217,"endTime":283.579,"body":"you can teach to benefit so many different people."},{"startTime":283.939,"endTime":288.182,"body":"What about you? Were you creatively encouraged"},{"startTime":291.162,"endTime":294.363,"body":"Well, I really loved drawing when I was little and I think a"},{"startTime":294.423,"endTime":297.984,"body":"lot of children do love drawing, you know, when they're very small. I"},{"startTime":298.004,"endTime":301.304,"body":"did an amazing experiment at the start of the little art school"},{"startTime":301.324,"endTime":304.565,"body":"where I went around primary schools and I asked children in P1 in"},{"startTime":304.605,"endTime":308.086,"body":"Scotland, which is reception year, do you love to draw and paint? And"},{"startTime":308.666,"endTime":311.947,"body":"100% of children put their hand up. And by the time it got to P7, so I"},{"startTime":311.967,"endTime":315.607,"body":"don't know what that is in England, but it's the equivalent of the final year of primary school,"},{"startTime":316.108,"endTime":319.501,"body":"about 30% of children liked it and"},{"startTime":319.602,"endTime":323.907,"body":"hardly any of them thought they could do it. Whereas when you ask a five-year-old, can"},{"startTime":323.948,"endTime":327.112,"body":"you do it? Are you good at it? They'll go, yeah, I'm really good. Look."},{"startTime":328.023,"endTime":331.225,"body":"And for me as a child, that's kind of summed it up. I loved it."},{"startTime":331.425,"endTime":334.927,"body":"I don't think I was brilliant. I just remember getting older and looking across,"},{"startTime":334.967,"endTime":338.609,"body":"there's a boy in my class, Martin Wall, and he was really, really good. And"},{"startTime":338.649,"endTime":342.612,"body":"mine looked really simple next to this kind of beautiful shading"},{"startTime":342.632,"endTime":345.954,"body":"that he was doing. And it was that sort of start of,"},{"startTime":346.614,"endTime":349.856,"body":"oh, I'm obviously not very good at this. And then Having"},{"startTime":349.896,"endTime":353.278,"body":"been really encouraged in primary school and loving to draw,"},{"startTime":353.378,"endTime":356.66,"body":"that was what I did for hours at home. Got into secondary school, had"},{"startTime":356.68,"endTime":359.921,"body":"an art teacher who said I wasn't very good and I thought,"},{"startTime":359.961,"endTime":363.103,"body":"oh, well, that's that then. To me now, doing what"},{"startTime":363.123,"endTime":366.326,"body":"we have done over the last 10 years, I just find it appalling that anybody is"},{"startTime":366.386,"endTime":369.448,"body":"ever told that. But you wouldn't tell a child who's struggling with the"},{"startTime":369.488,"endTime":372.83,"body":"violin, yeah, no, you can't do that. You just say you've not learned"},{"startTime":372.91,"endTime":376.372,"body":"it yet. And for me, it kind of just disappeared. It"},{"startTime":380.635,"endTime":384.718,"body":"And the violin thing is an interesting comparison because"},{"startTime":387.953,"endTime":391.154,"body":"Absolutely. Musicians are always told they need"},{"startTime":391.174,"endTime":394.395,"body":"to practice. And yet, there is this myth that with"},{"startTime":394.435,"endTime":398.015,"body":"drawing and painting, you've either got it or you've not. So everything"},{"startTime":398.035,"endTime":401.496,"body":"we do at the Little Art School is about practice. I say it all"},{"startTime":401.516,"endTime":404.697,"body":"the time, practice, practice, practice. And it's been fascinating for me"},{"startTime":404.777,"endTime":407.918,"body":"over the last 10 years, as I've developed the Little Art School course and"},{"startTime":407.958,"endTime":411.079,"body":"methodology, and as my business partner, Melissa, has built the"},{"startTime":411.119,"endTime":414.419,"body":"business, as we've done this, I've watched"},{"startTime":414.48,"endTime":417.761,"body":"my children learn musical instruments. I've got four kids and the ones"},{"startTime":417.821,"endTime":421.243,"body":"who practice a lot are really good. And the ones who don't practice"},{"startTime":421.443,"endTime":424.605,"body":"ever, and you're saying as their music teachers and piano teachers coming up"},{"startTime":424.625,"endTime":428.007,"body":"the drive, have you done anything this week? They're"},{"startTime":428.027,"endTime":431.75,"body":"the ones who don't progress. I mean, it's a correlation. It's scientifically proved."},{"startTime":431.77,"endTime":435.472,"body":"There's been study after study after study done about it, which students progress"},{"startTime":435.532,"endTime":438.894,"body":"most at music college. And it's the ones who practice the most and"},{"startTime":438.914,"endTime":442.792,"body":"the ones who practice the least don't progress as much. I"},{"startTime":442.852,"endTime":446.133,"body":"think drawing and painting is the same. And actually, if you paint"},{"startTime":446.354,"endTime":449.815,"body":"every day, you will get to be really very good. And"},{"startTime":449.835,"endTime":453.176,"body":"we've proved that. We have categorically proved that over the last 10 years."},{"startTime":453.837,"endTime":457.998,"body":"And I have the same experiences with dance, because"},{"startTime":458.739,"endTime":462.56,"body":"you can keep doing it over and over and over again, say"},{"startTime":462.62,"endTime":465.741,"body":"it's a choreographed routine, and it does get into the"},{"startTime":465.781,"endTime":469.04,"body":"muscle memory. Yeah. So that it"},{"startTime":469.22,"endTime":472.662,"body":"comes much more naturally. And I even practice in my head sometimes as well. And"},{"startTime":472.702,"endTime":475.943,"body":"that really helps just running through a routine in my head. It's as"},{"startTime":476.023,"endTime":479.524,"body":"if it's happening with my body. Anyway, I digress. Sorry."},{"startTime":479.684,"endTime":482.845,"body":"No, because I think that's really interesting, Claire, because when you're drawing, it"},{"startTime":483.285,"endTime":486.426,"body":"is muscle memory. For example, drawing a line, people are always saying to"},{"startTime":486.466,"endTime":489.847,"body":"me, oh, I can't even draw a line. And I say, well, have you practiced drawing a line? Because"},{"startTime":490.168,"endTime":493.309,"body":"I wasn't very good at drawing lines. So every morning for"},{"startTime":493.389,"endTime":496.911,"body":"five minutes, For about a year, I practiced drawing lines."},{"startTime":497.031,"endTime":500.194,"body":"So now I don't need a ruler. I couldn't at first, but it"},{"startTime":500.214,"endTime":503.778,"body":"was muscle memory. So now when I draw, my hand knows"},{"startTime":503.818,"endTime":506.981,"body":"where I want to go because I've trained them in the same way that a"},{"startTime":507.021,"endTime":510.144,"body":"dancer would because it's physical. Holding a brush, holding a"},{"startTime":510.204,"endTime":513.907,"body":"pencil is physical, but nobody teaches people this. Primary"},{"startTime":513.927,"endTime":517.17,"body":"school teachers are taught in their primary school training. I"},{"startTime":517.19,"endTime":520.752,"body":"think they spent an hour being taught art skills and yet every"},{"startTime":520.792,"endTime":524.235,"body":"single day they're expected to draw with small children, but nobody teaches them"},{"startTime":524.275,"endTime":527.858,"body":"how to do it. It's one of my next plans. I"},{"startTime":527.878,"endTime":531.24,"body":"have been into primary schools and taught teachers. Please, please encourage"},{"startTime":531.26,"endTime":534.483,"body":"a growth mindset in all your children. If they can't draw, just keep"},{"startTime":534.523,"endTime":537.745,"body":"saying, oh, well, you just can't do it yet. Not, I can't draw."},{"startTime":538.553,"endTime":541.896,"body":"Yeah, completely agree. It's something we hear a lot from guests about the whole school"},{"startTime":541.936,"endTime":545.499,"body":"experience. And speaking of that, when you then started"},{"startTime":545.539,"endTime":549.202,"body":"to lose your confidence in your art"},{"startTime":549.523,"endTime":553.166,"body":"and your furthering your academic career, what did you do"},{"startTime":556.246,"endTime":559.529,"body":"I was always quite academic and bookish, so I love"},{"startTime":559.97,"endTime":563.654,"body":"reading. I studied history at Oxford University, which"},{"startTime":563.714,"endTime":567.177,"body":"was an amazing place to study and really surrounded by art."},{"startTime":567.437,"endTime":570.701,"body":"And as I progressed through the course, I found myself going more"},{"startTime":570.761,"endTime":573.984,"body":"and more to art history and ended up"},{"startTime":574.124,"endTime":577.308,"body":"studying a lot in the Ashmolean library and the museum, which I"},{"startTime":577.348,"endTime":581.272,"body":"just loved. So I specialized in 14th century fresco"},{"startTime":581.332,"endTime":584.676,"body":"painting, which I still adore. Mine and my husband's"},{"startTime":584.716,"endTime":588.24,"body":"honeymoon 23 years ago, we were in Florence and"},{"startTime":588.3,"endTime":591.88,"body":"on about day three, I went, no more frescoes. No more frescoes,"},{"startTime":591.9,"endTime":594.982,"body":"Joanne. Yeah, so educationally, that's the route that I"},{"startTime":595.022,"endTime":598.185,"body":"went down and art was definitely there. But"},{"startTime":598.205,"endTime":601.507,"body":"then I took a massive side swipe and veered completely away"},{"startTime":601.567,"endTime":605.31,"body":"from it. And I joined the Royal Air Force and became an intelligence officer."},{"startTime":610.457,"endTime":613.898,"body":"And why that choice? Was it a choice as such? Was"},{"startTime":616.259,"endTime":619.5,"body":"No, not at all. It was one of those things where I look"},{"startTime":619.52,"endTime":622.662,"body":"back now and I have literally no idea. I mean,"},{"startTime":623.022,"endTime":626.963,"body":"partly in all seriousness, I was ridiculously idealistic. And"},{"startTime":627.003,"endTime":630.324,"body":"I genuinely believed that I would probably single-handedly solve the"},{"startTime":630.344,"endTime":634.085,"body":"Bosnian crisis. Obviously, I did nothing remotely useful"},{"startTime":634.145,"endTime":637.486,"body":"during my time in the Air Force. And I definitely didn't solve"},{"startTime":637.506,"endTime":641.127,"body":"the Bosnian crisis. But I was an idealist and"},{"startTime":641.347,"endTime":644.708,"body":"I wanted to make a difference. And I think I was probably just"},{"startTime":644.728,"endTime":647.788,"body":"a bit of a moron, to be honest, in my early 20s. But I"},{"startTime":647.808,"endTime":651.529,"body":"did grow up. I did grow up eventually. I'm"},{"startTime":651.649,"endTime":654.89,"body":"sure you made some kind of difference. I"},{"startTime":654.95,"endTime":659.511,"body":"really, genuinely, absolutely didn't. And"},{"startTime":659.551,"endTime":663.032,"body":"how long were you there? I was in for six years,"},{"startTime":663.432,"endTime":666.613,"body":"which was probably six years too many, to be honest. But"},{"startTime":667.113,"endTime":670.653,"body":"I met my husband, so it's not all bad. And I made some very, very"},{"startTime":670.693,"endTime":673.894,"body":"dear friends. So I'm a"},{"startTime":673.974,"endTime":677.455,"body":"huge fan of the armed forces, obviously, but it's not for everybody. And"},{"startTime":677.495,"endTime":680.796,"body":"it definitely wasn't for me. I'm not sure it's a great place"},{"startTime":682.817,"endTime":686.14,"body":"Yeah, I don't know how much you want to tell me from that point"},{"startTime":686.18,"endTime":689.503,"body":"of view, but do you mean stressful? Do you mean regimen? What"},{"startTime":690.145,"endTime":693.566,"body":"And creative people often want to go in their own direction, in"},{"startTime":693.606,"endTime":697.707,"body":"their own route. And I think what you really need as a creative is freedom and"},{"startTime":697.787,"endTime":701.587,"body":"time. And the last thing that you're going to have in a highly structured"},{"startTime":701.627,"endTime":705.288,"body":"environment like the armed forces is freedom. It's"},{"startTime":705.368,"endTime":708.809,"body":"a safety critical industry where you've got to follow set rules."},{"startTime":709.309,"endTime":712.59,"body":"And I'm not sure creatives respond that well to"},{"startTime":712.63,"endTime":715.993,"body":"rules. I don't anyway. If I see a notice saying"},{"startTime":716.033,"endTime":719.178,"body":"don't stand on the grass, I immediately jump on"},{"startTime":719.198,"endTime":722.622,"body":"the grass. I can't help myself. I was just constantly in trouble for"},{"startTime":722.742,"endTime":726.194,"body":"insubordination. I really, really was. But"},{"startTime":726.755,"endTime":729.838,"body":"it was during my time in the armed forces that I did learn to paint. So I"},{"startTime":729.898,"endTime":733.841,"body":"came back to drawing and painting through the armed forces because I"},{"startTime":733.901,"endTime":737.424,"body":"actually broke my back, not doing anything remotely heroic,"},{"startTime":737.445,"endTime":740.507,"body":"but I broke my back and I was signed off work and I"},{"startTime":740.567,"endTime":743.71,"body":"saw a sign in a shop from the village hall near where I"},{"startTime":743.75,"endTime":746.993,"body":"was based. And it said, drawing and painting for those who"},{"startTime":747.073,"endTime":750.351,"body":"think they can't. I thought, oh, that's me. And I've got loads of"},{"startTime":750.371,"endTime":753.832,"body":"free time because I'm not allowed to work. Went in, I was"},{"startTime":753.952,"endTime":757.273,"body":"pregnant as well at the time with my first child. Started these"},{"startTime":757.313,"endTime":760.393,"body":"classes, five classes in. I remember thinking it"},{"startTime":760.413,"endTime":763.994,"body":"was like a light bulb, literally, bing, bing, bing. Oh"},{"startTime":764.014,"endTime":767.195,"body":"my God, you can learn how to do this. Anyone can learn how"},{"startTime":767.235,"endTime":770.616,"body":"to do this. It's a taught skill. I can learn the piano, I"},{"startTime":770.636,"endTime":774.017,"body":"can learn a language, I can learn to draw and paint. And"},{"startTime":774.057,"endTime":777.275,"body":"that's where it began. So it was 22 years ago. Were you"},{"startTime":777.316,"endTime":780.441,"body":"pregnant with a broken back? Yeah, I'd broken my back and"},{"startTime":780.461,"endTime":784.542,"body":"I was in recovery. I was actually at Headley Court, which is a residential place"},{"startTime":784.582,"endTime":787.683,"body":"where I was getting my back first when I found out that I was pregnant. And at"},{"startTime":787.723,"endTime":790.984,"body":"the time was told, you know, by the time you get to full pregnancy, you"},{"startTime":791.004,"endTime":794.765,"body":"may not be walking. But actually, I did yoga every day, wonderful yoga."},{"startTime":795.365,"endTime":799.246,"body":"And I was fine. It was fine. It wasn't a serious, you"},{"startTime":799.266,"endTime":802.647,"body":"know, I wasn't in a back brace or anything like this. I basically broke, it"},{"startTime":802.667,"endTime":806.067,"body":"was my sacrum and my coccyx and all that area. But"},{"startTime":806.287,"endTime":809.422,"body":"drawing and painting just became an"},{"startTime":809.682,"endTime":813.123,"body":"escape, a joyful, lovely escape"},{"startTime":813.543,"endTime":816.944,"body":"with no idea that it was going to become my career."},{"startTime":817.324,"endTime":820.465,"body":"I mean, it really was just to have fun. That was all I was"},{"startTime":821.165,"endTime":824.526,"body":"Yeah. So you have the baby, but"},{"startTime":824.586,"endTime":828.046,"body":"then left the Air Force. Did you"},{"startTime":831.013,"endTime":834.496,"body":"Yeah, I did. I did a master's. When"},{"startTime":834.516,"endTime":837.819,"body":"I had my second baby, when the two girls were both under"},{"startTime":837.879,"endTime":841.182,"body":"two, I started a master's in museum and gallery studies. So"},{"startTime":841.202,"endTime":844.545,"body":"I was kind of going already heading back into"},{"startTime":844.585,"endTime":848.348,"body":"this world, which I knew I loved, where I felt very comfortable in"},{"startTime":848.648,"endTime":851.951,"body":"galleries and in museums. And I did that master's at"},{"startTime":851.991,"endTime":855.715,"body":"Southampton University. had a wonderful time."},{"startTime":856.095,"endTime":860.218,"body":"And it really sort of was the start of something new. And then I accidentally"},{"startTime":860.278,"endTime":863.982,"body":"fell into journalism and began writing for magazines,"},{"startTime":864.142,"endTime":867.505,"body":"kind of top end baby magazines. And from that, I"},{"startTime":867.545,"endTime":871.028,"body":"got probably one of my cushiest jobs, which was doing"},{"startTime":871.108,"endTime":875.271,"body":"hotel reviews for five star hotels, taking"},{"startTime":875.311,"endTime":878.914,"body":"my small children to it. So my girls became really accustomed"},{"startTime":878.954,"endTime":883.278,"body":"to like, you know, Oh, I'm not sure this is five stars, mommy. Whereas"},{"startTime":883.378,"endTime":886.681,"body":"I've always been on holiday in a tent."},{"startTime":886.801,"endTime":890.045,"body":"They were doing their five-star hotels. Neither of them can remember it. They're"},{"startTime":890.065,"endTime":893.228,"body":"really cross, but we stayed in some lovely, lovely places. And I did"},{"startTime":893.288,"endTime":896.471,"body":"that for a few years, but painting all the time, trying to"},{"startTime":896.491,"endTime":899.975,"body":"improve my skills. Really fascinated by how you can improve"},{"startTime":900.015,"endTime":903.618,"body":"your skills. Because I'm quite spoddy and swattish, I"},{"startTime":903.658,"endTime":907.5,"body":"just always had notebooks. So every time I did a drawing, I'm"},{"startTime":907.88,"endTime":911.321,"body":"such a firm believer in being a reflective practitioner. So I'd do a drawing"},{"startTime":911.461,"endTime":914.782,"body":"and immediately I'd write, if I were to do this again, I'd do"},{"startTime":914.822,"endTime":918.304,"body":"this, this and this, or a wash didn't work. And"},{"startTime":918.324,"endTime":921.565,"body":"rather than thinking, now I'll just chuck it, I would go, why"},{"startTime":921.585,"endTime":924.806,"body":"didn't that wash work? Well, what if I tried this or tried this or tried this?"},{"startTime":924.946,"endTime":928.747,"body":"I mean, I must have about 20 files of notes where,"},{"startTime":929.388,"endTime":933.389,"body":"and I really, really wasn't a great painter"},{"startTime":933.469,"endTime":936.691,"body":"or artist. Definitely nowhere near the best in my little"},{"startTime":936.731,"endTime":940.492,"body":"class that I started with. In other classes, I went to lots"},{"startTime":940.552,"endTime":945.795,"body":"and lots of people who are much better than me, but I was quite fascinated"},{"startTime":945.855,"endTime":949.136,"body":"by the process of learning to draw and paint. I'd have these moments where I'd"},{"startTime":949.156,"endTime":952.337,"body":"go, oh, why did no one tell me that? If I'd known that"},{"startTime":952.558,"endTime":955.759,"body":"10 years ago, it would have completely changed. That's what our course is"},{"startTime":955.819,"endTime":959.04,"body":"based on. Our course is based on this idea of that it's"},{"startTime":959.1,"endTime":963.142,"body":"really structured. Look for shapes, look for tones, Think"},{"startTime":963.182,"endTime":966.365,"body":"about color theory. How does perspective work? What's the"},{"startTime":966.425,"endTime":970.168,"body":"science behind composition? How do you draw a face? How"},{"startTime":970.188,"endTime":973.45,"body":"do you draw a nose? It's not a triangle. It's actually a series of"},{"startTime":973.55,"endTime":977.113,"body":"balls in the face. All this stuff that was so interesting"},{"startTime":977.133,"endTime":980.563,"body":"and fascinating. That's what I was collating at"},{"startTime":980.583,"endTime":984.466,"body":"the same time as I was doing other jobs. And eventually, about 10 years"},{"startTime":984.546,"endTime":987.869,"body":"after that first class, I sold my first painting, much"},{"startTime":987.909,"endTime":991.492,"body":"to my surprise, I have to say. And then I started putting a few things in galleries"},{"startTime":991.552,"endTime":995.209,"body":"and taking commissions. And I still"},{"startTime":995.289,"endTime":998.532,"body":"felt, and I still feel, I've got so, so, so much to"},{"startTime":998.552,"endTime":1002.135,"body":"learn. I hope in 30 years time, when I hit 80, whatever,"},{"startTime":1002.475,"endTime":1006.198,"body":"I hope I'm still thinking, oh, a little bit more. Michelangelo said"},{"startTime":1006.238,"endTime":1009.48,"body":"in his 80s, I am still learning. And I've always"},{"startTime":1009.52,"endTime":1013.183,"body":"found that so inspiring. One of the greatest artists"},{"startTime":1013.223,"endTime":1016.786,"body":"in the world ever, every decade learning more, progressing,"},{"startTime":1017.206,"endTime":1021.253,"body":"changing the way that he painted. To me, creativity isn't"},{"startTime":1021.494,"endTime":1024.822,"body":"about sitting there waiting for something to happen. It's work."},{"startTime":1025.835,"endTime":1029.296,"body":"That's my other favorite quote. Picasso said, inspiration has"},{"startTime":1029.336,"endTime":1032.457,"body":"to find you working. So, when I've got artists who've been with me"},{"startTime":1032.477,"endTime":1035.879,"body":"and they've learned to paint and go, oh, I'm just not feeling inspired. It's"},{"startTime":1035.899,"endTime":1039.3,"body":"like, well, get to your studio. I'm really strict, quite bossy. Get"},{"startTime":1039.32,"endTime":1042.481,"body":"to your studio, start painting at eight o'clock in the morning. If"},{"startTime":1042.541,"endTime":1046.323,"body":"by 11 o'clock, you've not had any inspiration, keep"},{"startTime":1046.403,"endTime":1049.884,"body":"drawing, go and get a cup of coffee, come back, keep drawing."},{"startTime":1050.404,"endTime":1053.886,"body":"It's not going to strike you when you're just sitting there."},{"startTime":1054.426,"endTime":1058.108,"body":"You have to work. And I think that's another"},{"startTime":1058.649,"endTime":1061.991,"body":"part of creativity that's really misunderstood, that"},{"startTime":1062.011,"endTime":1065.493,"body":"it's like these blasts from above. It's not. It's graft,"},{"startTime":1065.613,"endTime":1068.714,"body":"and it's application, and it's ability to"},{"startTime":1068.794,"endTime":1073.317,"body":"fail, fail, fail, fail, and then to succeed. That's"},{"startTime":1073.377,"endTime":1076.599,"body":"my mantra, Claire. Does that sound very bossy? Yes, it does, Joanne. Yes."},{"startTime":1081.273,"endTime":1084.556,"body":"No, it's very sensible. And going"},{"startTime":1084.596,"endTime":1087.819,"body":"back to where you were making the notes on things that weren't working on"},{"startTime":1087.859,"endTime":1090.962,"body":"your own practice, as people who have listened to"},{"startTime":1091.002,"endTime":1094.665,"body":"the show before will know, I edit illustrated nonfiction books"},{"startTime":1094.705,"endTime":1097.908,"body":"and art subjects and painting subjects come up a lot. And"},{"startTime":1097.988,"endTime":1101.271,"body":"writing notes is always advised in those"},{"startTime":1101.351,"endTime":1104.754,"body":"books. and keeping them and keeping sketches and sketches and"},{"startTime":1104.774,"endTime":1107.896,"body":"sketches with stuff on. The same with the drawing. I"},{"startTime":1107.956,"endTime":1111.098,"body":"mean, writers don't think twice about going, right, I'm"},{"startTime":1111.118,"endTime":1114.46,"body":"just going to write something. I'm not in the right place, so I'll just do some free"},{"startTime":1114.5,"endTime":1119.344,"body":"writing. That's what you're talking about here with the sketching. You"},{"startTime":1119.364,"endTime":1122.866,"body":"mentioned actually selling work. How did that"},{"startTime":1122.926,"endTime":1126.108,"body":"come about? Did you have the confidence to go"},{"startTime":1127.765,"endTime":1131.227,"body":"I think I was in a Framer and the Framer had said, oh, I think that's really saleable."},{"startTime":1131.287,"endTime":1134.628,"body":"It was a series of paintings I did around Japan because I'd lived"},{"startTime":1134.648,"endTime":1137.93,"body":"in Japan briefly. And so, they went into the gallery and"},{"startTime":1137.95,"endTime":1141.572,"body":"I thought, oh, that's interesting. I wonder how that works. I'm quite curious"},{"startTime":1141.632,"endTime":1145.053,"body":"and not really that afraid of someone saying no to"},{"startTime":1145.093,"endTime":1148.595,"body":"me. It's something I'm trying to teach my artists now,"},{"startTime":1148.675,"endTime":1151.956,"body":"many of whom have completely surpassed me with their skills, which"},{"startTime":1152.017,"endTime":1155.161,"body":"is what I want. But just don't have the confidence to go into a"},{"startTime":1155.201,"endTime":1158.649,"body":"gallery and say, this is my work. Would you be interested in selling"},{"startTime":1158.709,"endTime":1162.103,"body":"it? And I just did that. someone"},{"startTime":1162.123,"endTime":1165.484,"body":"said yes and someone said no and then someone else said yes. And"},{"startTime":1166.085,"endTime":1169.426,"body":"then I thought, oh, I'll set up a website. So I set up a website and"},{"startTime":1169.926,"endTime":1173.767,"body":"people started coming to me with photographs of"},{"startTime":1174.768,"endTime":1177.909,"body":"often children or landscapes that"},{"startTime":1177.949,"endTime":1181.27,"body":"meant something to them and I was starting to sell commissioned work. It's very"},{"startTime":1181.31,"endTime":1184.471,"body":"hard for, and I'm sure there'll be lots of people in your community, Claire, it's"},{"startTime":1184.491,"endTime":1187.902,"body":"very hard to price work and it's really hard"},{"startTime":1187.922,"endTime":1191.023,"body":"to value it. And I'm sure that's something that comes up time and time and"},{"startTime":1191.043,"endTime":1194.564,"body":"time again. And one of the things I'm saying to my artists is, don't"},{"startTime":1194.684,"endTime":1197.964,"body":"think this took me two hours. Think"},{"startTime":1198.404,"endTime":1201.985,"body":"of the 10 years it's taken you to learn how to do it. Value"},{"startTime":1202.085,"endTime":1206.566,"body":"your skill. It upsets me that we"},{"startTime":1206.626,"endTime":1209.846,"body":"will pay for our walls to be painted and we'll pay"},{"startTime":1209.907,"endTime":1213.708,"body":"more for that than for an artist who's spent many,"},{"startTime":1213.728,"endTime":1217.19,"body":"many years developing these skills. We ran our first ever"},{"startTime":1217.49,"endTime":1220.712,"body":"art exhibition last month to celebrate 10 years"},{"startTime":1220.752,"endTime":1223.874,"body":"of the Little Art School. We sold most of the work. We had"},{"startTime":1223.894,"endTime":1227.296,"body":"a few professionals, but most of the work was our artists selling their work"},{"startTime":1227.316,"endTime":1231.158,"body":"for the first time. And for several of them, I could have sold those paintings 10 times"},{"startTime":1231.398,"endTime":1234.82,"body":"over for 10 times the estimate they'd given me. Because"},{"startTime":1234.84,"endTime":1238.302,"body":"I was watching people every day come in and their emotional reaction to"},{"startTime":1238.322,"endTime":1241.623,"body":"this work. One artist in particular, actually, whose work"},{"startTime":1241.703,"endTime":1244.864,"body":"is absolutely breathtaking. She started learning with"},{"startTime":1244.944,"endTime":1248.445,"body":"us as a very busy GP and parent, went"},{"startTime":1248.465,"endTime":1251.526,"body":"through six years of our course, and is now painting and"},{"startTime":1251.586,"endTime":1254.787,"body":"selling her work. It is just a constant fight"},{"startTime":1254.827,"endTime":1257.988,"body":"with me going, no, a bit more than that, I think. Add"},{"startTime":1258.028,"endTime":1261.669,"body":"another £100. But you must come across this all the time, Claire,"},{"startTime":1261.89,"endTime":1265.191,"body":"creatives who really undervalue their skill and"},{"startTime":1266.718,"endTime":1270.179,"body":"Yeah, definitely. I was at a fair the other day and"},{"startTime":1270.299,"endTime":1273.501,"body":"chatting to the lady that was next to me on my table and she had"},{"startTime":1273.581,"endTime":1277.022,"body":"put up, make me an offer and myself and"},{"startTime":1277.062,"endTime":1280.343,"body":"the other table next to me at these stalls and she was"},{"startTime":1280.444,"endTime":1283.585,"body":"kind of going in low and we were going, no, you could charge this for this, you"},{"startTime":1283.605,"endTime":1286.866,"body":"could charge this for this, going up and up and up. And the next time"},{"startTime":1286.966,"endTime":1290.428,"body":"she went to that fair, she did have her prices and I liked her prices."},{"startTime":1290.508,"endTime":1293.749,"body":"But yeah, it is, it's something, as you say, in the community that comes up"},{"startTime":1293.809,"endTime":1297.031,"body":"a lot. People being wary of how much to charge and"},{"startTime":1297.071,"endTime":1300.814,"body":"the same as you said, from the viewer's point of view, they're seeing an"},{"startTime":1300.914,"endTime":1304.457,"body":"object, a finished item, and they're not seeing everything"},{"startTime":1304.617,"endTime":1307.94,"body":"that's gone before that, which as well as practice and learning and skill"},{"startTime":1308.02,"endTime":1311.403,"body":"is experience as well, is life experience and what that puts"},{"startTime":1311.463,"endTime":1315.502,"body":"into your interpretation. So tell me then about why"},{"startTime":1315.602,"endTime":1318.863,"body":"and how you started the Little Art School. I'm"},{"startTime":1318.923,"endTime":1321.984,"body":"also keen because you've been mentioning about My Artist, so it"},{"startTime":1322.104,"endTime":1325.384,"body":"obviously carries on with the older people as well. I"},{"startTime":1327.365,"endTime":1330.986,"body":"Yeah, it all came about by accident really. One"},{"startTime":1331.006,"endTime":1334.126,"body":"of my daughters had changed schools and she'd ask me"},{"startTime":1334.146,"endTime":1337.387,"body":"would I go in and teach the children. This was my oldest"},{"startTime":1337.427,"endTime":1340.59,"body":"daughter. who'd come with me as a little baby in the baby carrier to"},{"startTime":1340.63,"endTime":1344.414,"body":"my first art class. So I went in and I did an art class and"},{"startTime":1344.574,"endTime":1348.017,"body":"it was one of those moments where I was teaching them from using"},{"startTime":1348.037,"endTime":1351.321,"body":"the Betty Edwards techniques of drawing on the right side of the brain."},{"startTime":1351.341,"endTime":1355.005,"body":"And there's a Betty Edwards drawing, which is an upside down drawing."},{"startTime":1355.565,"endTime":1359.086,"body":"And it's quite a complex drawing, actually. But what I was saying to the kids was, shapes."},{"startTime":1359.226,"endTime":1362.607,"body":"Don't think it's a knee. It's a hat. Look at the shape."},{"startTime":1363.088,"endTime":1366.549,"body":"Look at the size of the shape and how it fits next to the shape. So you're not thinking"},{"startTime":1366.929,"endTime":1370.51,"body":"that this is a portrait. All you're thinking of is shapes. So"},{"startTime":1370.53,"endTime":1374.171,"body":"they did this drawing, and then they turned them the right way around. And"},{"startTime":1374.211,"endTime":1377.572,"body":"the teacher had said to me, you have to come and look at this. And"},{"startTime":1377.592,"endTime":1380.853,"body":"there was a little boy there. He was 10 years old. She said, he can't draw."},{"startTime":1380.873,"endTime":1384.156,"body":"I said, well, I think we can both look"},{"startTime":1384.176,"endTime":1387.881,"body":"at this. It was a Picasso drawing of Stravinsky, line drawing. It"},{"startTime":1387.922,"endTime":1391.206,"body":"was like a photocopy of the original. The hair was standing up"},{"startTime":1391.246,"endTime":1394.831,"body":"on my arm. I said, well, he can clearly draw. She said, no, and she showed me his"},{"startTime":1394.951,"endTime":1398.536,"body":"book and they're stick men and they weren't even very good stick men. I"},{"startTime":1398.556,"endTime":1401.687,"body":"said, well, look, If you teach him, he can"},{"startTime":1401.727,"endTime":1405.01,"body":"draw. If you teach these kids, she said, well, will you come back?"},{"startTime":1405.05,"endTime":1408.234,"body":"So I came back two or three times. And then a group of parents actually came"},{"startTime":1408.274,"endTime":1411.978,"body":"to me and says, the kids are loving it. There's dance classes, there's acting"},{"startTime":1412.018,"endTime":1415.482,"body":"classes, there's football classes, there's no art class. Will you do"},{"startTime":1415.522,"endTime":1418.866,"body":"an art class? And I said, absolutely no way. I've got"},{"startTime":1419.046,"endTime":1422.169,"body":"four kids. Four I've got four kids under 11. I"},{"startTime":1422.229,"endTime":1425.492,"body":"haven't been to the toilet on my own for five years. I"},{"startTime":1425.612,"endTime":1428.775,"body":"cannot possibly start an art class, but"},{"startTime":1428.815,"endTime":1432.018,"body":"I did anyway. And we ran it that summer in"},{"startTime":1432.098,"endTime":1435.442,"body":"my dining room and my then three-year-old and"},{"startTime":1435.502,"endTime":1439.726,"body":"six-year-old were all running around. It was slight chaos. It"},{"startTime":1439.746,"endTime":1443.209,"body":"was great. And three weeks later, I took on a small studio and"},{"startTime":1443.249,"endTime":1446.634,"body":"started the little art school. It's really grown now."},{"startTime":1446.694,"endTime":1450.378,"body":"So, we've got over 20 people in our team. We've got the charities."},{"startTime":1450.458,"endTime":1454.362,"body":"We've got a trade organization. We've won a lot of awards"},{"startTime":1454.422,"endTime":1457.765,"body":"and done different things. But for me, the reason"},{"startTime":1457.805,"endTime":1460.868,"body":"behind all that is that I have a business partner. So, I'm very aware of"},{"startTime":1460.928,"endTime":1464.251,"body":"what I'm not good at. I don't have business"},{"startTime":1464.312,"endTime":1467.895,"body":"experience. I've never even worked in a business. pretty much right"},{"startTime":1467.935,"endTime":1472.019,"body":"at the beginning, like literally in the first week, I was incredibly fortunate"},{"startTime":1472.119,"endTime":1476.223,"body":"to have my business partner come alongside Melissa"},{"startTime":1476.263,"endTime":1480.246,"body":"Haddo and she has 25 years corporate experience."},{"startTime":1480.426,"endTime":1484.53,"body":"So she brought processes, structure, HR, financial"},{"startTime":1484.57,"endTime":1488.013,"body":"planning. At the same time as I've kind of created the"},{"startTime":1488.213,"endTime":1491.676,"body":"art of the business, the structured course, I've had the freedom"},{"startTime":1491.736,"endTime":1495.239,"body":"to do that because Melissa's created the business. She's"},{"startTime":1495.259,"endTime":1499.282,"body":"created a solid, sound, sustainable business. So it"},{"startTime":1499.362,"endTime":1502.704,"body":"was very much about two women bringing two different skill"},{"startTime":1502.724,"endTime":1505.946,"body":"sets to grow an organization and that's what we've done. So"},{"startTime":1505.966,"endTime":1509.229,"body":"we're equal partners, we co-own the company and it's"},{"startTime":1509.349,"endTime":1513.88,"body":"been an amazing, challenging, difficult experience,"},{"startTime":1513.94,"endTime":1517.662,"body":"but I wouldn't have done it with anyone else. We"},{"startTime":1517.682,"endTime":1521.024,"body":"work very, very well together. We're very different, but we work really"},{"startTime":1521.044,"endTime":1524.307,"body":"well together. We're really proud of what we've built and"},{"startTime":1524.347,"endTime":1527.749,"body":"the lives that we're touching. There'll be a different story every"},{"startTime":1527.789,"endTime":1531.512,"body":"week that leaves us pretty much in tears because art touches people."},{"startTime":1532.112,"endTime":1535.374,"body":"The Dementia Charity and the Children's Charity have really achieved things"},{"startTime":1535.574,"endTime":1538.956,"body":"so far beyond our imaginings, actually. It's been really"},{"startTime":1541.297,"endTime":1544.578,"body":"It's just been a privilege. And how did you, you're talking about"},{"startTime":1544.638,"endTime":1548.339,"body":"children there, but how did you come to start the adult programme"},{"startTime":1552.2,"endTime":1555.501,"body":"That's been a real journey, without doubt. That sounds about X"},{"startTime":1555.541,"endTime":1559.882,"body":"factor, doesn't it? But it has. There's no other way to describe it. Because"},{"startTime":1559.922,"endTime":1563.183,"body":"of how I learned to draw and paint, I've always wanted to have"},{"startTime":1563.263,"endTime":1566.664,"body":"drawing and painting for those who think they can't. because it changed my life and"},{"startTime":1566.684,"endTime":1569.852,"body":"it has brought me so much. I had a"},{"startTime":1570.032,"endTime":1573.26,"body":"massive imposter syndrome of, I don't think I'm"},{"startTime":1573.3,"endTime":1576.724,"body":"good enough to do this. It's one thing"},{"startTime":1577.484,"endTime":1581.186,"body":"teaching five-year-olds to draw a mouse. It's very different teaching"},{"startTime":1581.246,"endTime":1584.948,"body":"adults. So we started in the studios doing"},{"startTime":1585.048,"endTime":1588.19,"body":"evening classes and day classes. And we've actually had people who"},{"startTime":1588.23,"endTime":1591.992,"body":"went all the way through because it's very structured. It's six levels,"},{"startTime":1592.212,"endTime":1595.414,"body":"which if you do a level a year, it's six years, which is how we teach it"},{"startTime":1595.434,"endTime":1598.656,"body":"in the studios. So we had people going through that of"},{"startTime":1598.816,"endTime":1602.758,"body":"different ages. Some retired. We had one lady who started at 76. She's"},{"startTime":1603.398,"endTime":1606.841,"body":"84 now. She paints every day. couldn't draw at all"},{"startTime":1607.061,"endTime":1610.445,"body":"at the start and now paints complex, often flowers, but"},{"startTime":1610.465,"endTime":1613.969,"body":"she also does portraits in oil. We took her through that journey."},{"startTime":1614.429,"endTime":1618.155,"body":"Other people as well, people who haven't drawn since school, people"},{"startTime":1618.195,"endTime":1621.619,"body":"who have my experience of being told in our class they couldn't, so many"},{"startTime":1621.679,"endTime":1625.523,"body":"medics because they all have to drop the creative subjects"},{"startTime":1625.643,"endTime":1630.328,"body":"in order to focus on the science at a very young age. So"},{"startTime":1630.428,"endTime":1633.591,"body":"lots and lots of medics. So we did it in our studios. What"},{"startTime":1633.631,"endTime":1637.134,"body":"we found was with our children's classes,"},{"startTime":1638.208,"endTime":1641.331,"body":"If money was tight or time was tight, but that was the"},{"startTime":1641.351,"endTime":1645.193,"body":"thing the kids loved, parents will do anything to ensure that"},{"startTime":1645.213,"endTime":1648.336,"body":"the children come to their class. But with adults, if"},{"startTime":1648.436,"endTime":1651.819,"body":"money's tight, the first thing they'll do is give up their hobby,"},{"startTime":1651.839,"endTime":1655.641,"body":"particularly women. If time's tight, the"},{"startTime":1655.681,"endTime":1659.144,"body":"first thing they'll do is sacrifice the thing that"},{"startTime":1659.344,"endTime":1662.687,"body":"is bringing them joy, but not driving anything else"},{"startTime":1662.727,"endTime":1666.31,"body":"for the rest of their network, their group, their"},{"startTime":1666.35,"endTime":1669.649,"body":"family. So it was difficult really to"},{"startTime":1669.709,"endTime":1673.231,"body":"run the adult classes because people would drop out for a term, but"},{"startTime":1673.311,"endTime":1676.714,"body":"our course is structured. You need to be there. You can't miss composition out"},{"startTime":1677.054,"endTime":1680.416,"body":"and then go straight into the analogous color theory because you"},{"startTime":1680.456,"endTime":1684.099,"body":"need to learn the composition bit as well. Then the pandemic came."},{"startTime":1684.899,"endTime":1688.182,"body":"We were on the point of franchising the little art school two weeks"},{"startTime":1688.262,"endTime":1691.484,"body":"before the pandemic struck. Melissa and I were with"},{"startTime":1691.544,"endTime":1695.347,"body":"our lawyers, having our picture taken in our lawyer's studio and"},{"startTime":1697.405,"endTime":1701.408,"body":"our income stream stopped overnight because it was all class-based. So"},{"startTime":1701.448,"endTime":1705.911,"body":"Melissa and I on the telephone, Melissa said to me, well, what"},{"startTime":1705.971,"endTime":1709.113,"body":"can we do to keep building self-esteem whilst everybody's in"},{"startTime":1709.153,"endTime":1712.335,"body":"lockdown? How can we do it? So I said, well, what"},{"startTime":1712.375,"endTime":1717.358,"body":"about a YouTube channel and we'll do free art lessons on YouTube? So"},{"startTime":1717.378,"endTime":1721.855,"body":"she went, go for it. And I put the phone down and thought, Right."},{"startTime":1721.955,"endTime":1725.057,"body":"I don't know where to start. So I've got four kids. I asked the kids, they showed me"},{"startTime":1725.097,"endTime":1728.958,"body":"what to do. And the next day we had a YouTube channel launched. And"},{"startTime":1728.978,"endTime":1732.94,"body":"I think at the last count, we've had 350,000 views"},{"startTime":1733.58,"endTime":1737.082,"body":"across the world on our YouTube channel. And the reaction to"},{"startTime":1737.162,"endTime":1741.31,"body":"it was incredible. We'd done it for families and children. actually"},{"startTime":1741.43,"endTime":1744.591,"body":"loads and loads and loads of adults were doing the daily draw as well. And"},{"startTime":1744.611,"endTime":1747.992,"body":"then we started doing a daily draw on a Thursday. My"},{"startTime":1748.032,"endTime":1752.073,"body":"daughter actually taught it, but we did it for like an intergenerational one,"},{"startTime":1752.353,"endTime":1756.054,"body":"draw with the grandparents. There was a family in Scotland who"},{"startTime":1756.074,"endTime":1759.695,"body":"were drawing it at the same time as grandparents in Germany and"},{"startTime":1759.715,"endTime":1762.996,"body":"they were videoing themselves and chatting whilst they were doing the daily draw. So"},{"startTime":1763.016,"endTime":1766.516,"body":"it was to bring families together. Then I started getting messages from people saying,"},{"startTime":1766.737,"endTime":1770.559,"body":"I didn't know you could learn to draw. Why is there no online"},{"startTime":1770.599,"endTime":1774.103,"body":"course doing this? They said, well, there's loads of stuff online. And they"},{"startTime":1774.123,"endTime":1777.787,"body":"said, but your stuff's not online. We can do these single"},{"startTime":1778.087,"endTime":1782.051,"body":"lessons, but what about your structured course that you teach? So"},{"startTime":1782.132,"endTime":1785.654,"body":"by September In that first year of the pandemic, we"},{"startTime":1785.714,"endTime":1789.078,"body":"launched an online course which came with all the materials you need"},{"startTime":1789.418,"endTime":1793.003,"body":"to learn to draw and paint. We've got artists all over the UK and beyond."},{"startTime":1793.363,"endTime":1796.767,"body":"We have a Q\u0026A, live Q\u0026A with people coming in from all over"},{"startTime":1796.887,"endTime":1800.825,"body":"every month. We've built a community on Facebook. It's"},{"startTime":1800.865,"endTime":1804.007,"body":"been an absolute joy, I have to"},{"startTime":1804.047,"endTime":1807.228,"body":"say. The online course, which we would have never, ever done without the"},{"startTime":1807.268,"endTime":1810.77,"body":"pandemic, has transformed our business. We're still launching"},{"startTime":1810.79,"endTime":1813.871,"body":"the franchise. We launched the franchise next year, and that will be the"},{"startTime":1813.911,"endTime":1817.313,"body":"children's classes. But the actual online"},{"startTime":1817.373,"endTime":1820.614,"body":"course stays as it is, and it's an arm of the business that we're"},{"startTime":1820.674,"endTime":1824.076,"body":"really growing. We're growing it quite quickly. Drawing"},{"startTime":1824.116,"endTime":1827.858,"body":"and painting, where on your own or in a group, is"},{"startTime":1828.703,"endTime":1832.13,"body":"just can be frustrating, but on the whole, it feeds"},{"startTime":1832.17,"endTime":1835.676,"body":"your soul. And that's what we're trying to do with"},{"startTime":1838.144,"endTime":1841.808,"body":"That's brilliant. It's so lovely that you can share that with so"},{"startTime":1841.848,"endTime":1845.471,"body":"many other adults, which is obviously something that"},{"startTime":1845.712,"endTime":1849.415,"body":"we try to encourage here at Creativity Found, whether it be through"},{"startTime":1849.435,"endTime":1853.239,"body":"the inspiration of our guests on the podcast to"},{"startTime":1853.259,"endTime":1856.623,"body":"then going on to actually, okay, here you go. Here's something"},{"startTime":1856.683,"endTime":1860.146,"body":"you can do to give it a go. You know, you heard what the guest's experience"},{"startTime":1860.186,"endTime":1863.469,"body":"was, now you give it a try. You obviously, as you said, get"},{"startTime":1863.509,"endTime":1867.311,"body":"great joy and lovely social aspect from the business"},{"startTime":1871.88,"endTime":1876.084,"body":"Yeah, I do. I went through a period when I was really intensively painting"},{"startTime":1876.164,"endTime":1879.787,"body":"for the Daily Draw, where literally every day I was coming up with another painting"},{"startTime":1879.967,"endTime":1883.27,"body":"and then starting the online course. Because again,"},{"startTime":1883.29,"endTime":1886.712,"body":"a lot of imposter syndrome to overcome there of thinking,"},{"startTime":1886.773,"endTime":1889.955,"body":"what if somebody watches this and says I'm not very good with the"},{"startTime":1889.995,"endTime":1893.758,"body":"little art school because the teachers teach the course we've created?"},{"startTime":1894.639,"endTime":1899.497,"body":"You know, there's places to hide. There's nowhere to hide if it's just your hand. showing"},{"startTime":1899.577,"endTime":1902.879,"body":"how to paint a hopper or a remoi. So I"},{"startTime":1902.959,"endTime":1907.502,"body":"did definitely, it all tailed off for me doing my own, following"},{"startTime":1907.542,"endTime":1910.764,"body":"my own creative practice during that time. I also felt"},{"startTime":1910.824,"endTime":1914.066,"body":"a bit too exhausted. I did say to my best friend, I'm"},{"startTime":1914.146,"endTime":1918.428,"body":"creatively exhausted. And she said, that's so poncy. Can't"},{"startTime":1918.468,"endTime":1921.54,"body":"believe you actually just said that. But I think I just was a"},{"startTime":1921.58,"endTime":1925.501,"body":"bit, to be honest. So now, I'm kind of, Melissa"},{"startTime":1925.521,"endTime":1929.242,"body":"and I have worked out more of a realistic timetable. I'm really unrealistic."},{"startTime":1929.702,"endTime":1933.403,"body":"I'm like, oh, it'll only take 10 minutes, and it takes five hours. So"},{"startTime":1933.984,"endTime":1937.504,"body":"a realistic timeline, which means I'd feel less pressure to"},{"startTime":1937.604,"endTime":1941.125,"body":"pour out these lessons, and I'm painting a lot for myself"},{"startTime":1941.265,"endTime":1944.606,"body":"now, which is lovely. Because I grow, I garden, and"},{"startTime":1944.986,"endTime":1948.427,"body":"I get huge amount of pleasure from gardening. So, I'm"},{"startTime":1948.467,"endTime":1952.368,"body":"now really sort of growing flowers to paint flowers. So,"},{"startTime":1952.528,"endTime":1955.849,"body":"even as I'm growing, you know, and growing and working out how's"},{"startTime":1955.869,"endTime":1959.169,"body":"that going to look with the vase, I can see that that colour or shape or"},{"startTime":1959.229,"endTime":1962.37,"body":"form is going to create a beautiful painting. So, that's all"},{"startTime":1962.41,"endTime":1965.87,"body":"coming together for me. And I find gardening very creative and"},{"startTime":1975.178,"endTime":1978.724,"body":"That is all very inspiring. Do you now therefore"},{"startTime":1983.13,"endTime":1987.742,"body":"Surviving the pandemic for the business and the charities. was"},{"startTime":1988.442,"endTime":1992.224,"body":"an enormous challenge. All business, forward faces businesses"},{"startTime":1992.264,"endTime":1996.325,"body":"like ours had to go through this. And I think we pivoted, we"},{"startTime":1996.365,"endTime":1999.727,"body":"didn't just survive, we thrived. We built the most"},{"startTime":1999.787,"endTime":2003.108,"body":"amazing team of people. And this team of people are really"},{"startTime":2003.188,"endTime":2006.469,"body":"growing with us, very much developing the skills of these"},{"startTime":2006.569,"endTime":2009.678,"body":"incredible individuals. as we grow the"},{"startTime":2009.718,"endTime":2012.86,"body":"business together. So really the next few years for us"},{"startTime":2012.94,"endTime":2016.281,"body":"is about franchising our children's classes. The aim is to have the"},{"startTime":2016.361,"endTime":2019.463,"body":"little art schools right across the UK. So that's one of"},{"startTime":2019.523,"endTime":2022.724,"body":"our main sort of growth areas. But the second one"},{"startTime":2022.804,"endTime":2026.106,"body":"is the online course. I am two"},{"startTime":2026.226,"endTime":2029.568,"body":"thirds of the way through filming that now. It's going to take me another two"},{"startTime":2029.608,"endTime":2032.929,"body":"years to film the last 60 lessons. So"},{"startTime":2032.949,"endTime":2036.631,"body":"I'm quite focused on that completion of the online course."},{"startTime":2037.252,"endTime":2041.62,"body":"The actual online course itself has been like"},{"startTime":2041.66,"endTime":2045.802,"body":"the effects on people, the stories that were told are"},{"startTime":2045.842,"endTime":2049.003,"body":"such that we've done very soft marketing. We have not gone out and"},{"startTime":2049.043,"endTime":2052.304,"body":"marketed this. It's been very much word of mouth, partly because"},{"startTime":2052.344,"endTime":2055.926,"body":"it was just a sense of let's get it finished. And then we go, but"},{"startTime":2056.186,"endTime":2059.307,"body":"I want to take this and really fly with it. So at"},{"startTime":2059.327,"endTime":2062.769,"body":"the same time as the arts schools are opening across the UK, I want the online"},{"startTime":2062.809,"endTime":2066.05,"body":"course to be touching people. So just last"},{"startTime":2066.09,"endTime":2069.351,"body":"week, somebody told me about how the course had helped"},{"startTime":2069.391,"endTime":2072.692,"body":"them so much through the last two months since their partner"},{"startTime":2072.732,"endTime":2075.953,"body":"had died because you can lose yourself in drawing and painting. We've"},{"startTime":2075.993,"endTime":2079.174,"body":"had people who've used the course as end of life care, which has"},{"startTime":2079.214,"endTime":2083.114,"body":"been so moving, such a privilege to have"},{"startTime":2083.174,"endTime":2086.915,"body":"been part of somebody's final weeks where they've just painted every"},{"startTime":2086.935,"endTime":2090.436,"body":"day because it's given them something to give to people"},{"startTime":2090.496,"endTime":2094.256,"body":"as something tangible to leave, but also to just"},{"startTime":2095.077,"endTime":2098.992,"body":"fill yourself with art. They're"},{"startTime":2099.052,"endTime":2102.353,"body":"like the most sort of extreme end of the case, but just people"},{"startTime":2102.373,"endTime":2105.814,"body":"who are struggling with depression, people who are feeling lonely, or"},{"startTime":2106.074,"endTime":2109.275,"body":"people who've just never painted since they left school and"},{"startTime":2109.315,"endTime":2113.056,"body":"want to start. And then they start and they think, oh my God, I love this. And"},{"startTime":2113.437,"endTime":2116.901,"body":"I'm actually really quite good. So there are two business"},{"startTime":2116.961,"endTime":2120.704,"body":"elements that will be growing over the next five to 10 years. With"},{"startTime":2120.764,"endTime":2124.187,"body":"our charities, the Dementia Arts Trust at the moment is purely here"},{"startTime":2124.247,"endTime":2127.871,"body":"on the West Coast of Scotland, but we've just released a pack that"},{"startTime":2127.911,"endTime":2132.738,"body":"you can follow, Dementia Friendly Art Pack. means"},{"startTime":2132.758,"endTime":2136.679,"body":"that we can reach people further out. And we really do want to be reaching"},{"startTime":2136.739,"endTime":2140.261,"body":"people across the UK with our dementia project. So"},{"startTime":2140.341,"endTime":2143.802,"body":"it's about starting to roll that out. We've worked with St. Andrews University in"},{"startTime":2143.822,"endTime":2147.203,"body":"the past to validate our dementia course. And"},{"startTime":2147.343,"endTime":2150.964,"body":"we also won quite a major award about"},{"startTime":2151.384,"endTime":2155.426,"body":"innovation in continuing care for Alzheimer's. the research for"},{"startTime":2155.566,"endTime":2159.31,"body":"non-pharmacological approaches to dealing"},{"startTime":2159.41,"endTime":2163.173,"body":"with dementia and Alzheimer's. This is growing. You"},{"startTime":2163.213,"endTime":2167.477,"body":"know, dance is one of them, Claire, but dance, drama, language"},{"startTime":2167.537,"endTime":2170.8,"body":"learning. There isn't a pill. You can't take a pill when you've got"},{"startTime":2170.84,"endTime":2174.123,"body":"dementia to make it better. But if you could put what we did"},{"startTime":2174.163,"endTime":2177.345,"body":"in pill form, we'd be billionaires. We had"},{"startTime":2177.385,"endTime":2181.167,"body":"a session just a few weeks ago with a lady who"},{"startTime":2181.207,"endTime":2184.87,"body":"began to draw a cake. It was the lesson we were doing. It was a tiered wedding"},{"startTime":2185.09,"endTime":2188.492,"body":"cake, a celebration cake. What she did was she drew a doll"},{"startTime":2188.632,"endTime":2191.774,"body":"at the top, a doll's face. and then sat back and began to"},{"startTime":2191.874,"endTime":2195.075,"body":"cry. And she said, I've remembered my"},{"startTime":2195.135,"endTime":2199.016,"body":"girls. When my daughters were little, we"},{"startTime":2199.056,"endTime":2202.277,"body":"drew dollies all the time. And she began to draw dollies all around her"},{"startTime":2202.297,"endTime":2206.299,"body":"cake and write, I love you all around. And the memories from"},{"startTime":2206.379,"endTime":2209.58,"body":"this act of drawing began to pour out of her."},{"startTime":2210.1,"endTime":2213.361,"body":"We went to the beach. We had picnics on the beach and the tears"},{"startTime":2213.381,"endTime":2216.802,"body":"were all crying at this point. Everybody was crying. And as she left,"},{"startTime":2216.942,"endTime":2220.103,"body":"she clasped Esther, who runs the charity, she clasped her hands and said,"},{"startTime":2220.743,"endTime":2223.944,"body":"you gave me my daughters back today. This was the"},{"startTime":2224.024,"endTime":2227.165,"body":"best day. Now that's what art can"},{"startTime":2227.205,"endTime":2230.896,"body":"do. This non-pharmacological approach, society"},{"startTime":2230.936,"endTime":2234.459,"body":"is so dependent on drugs to make things better."},{"startTime":2234.52,"endTime":2237.823,"body":"Drugs don't have all the answers. There's lots of things and"},{"startTime":2238.143,"endTime":2241.427,"body":"art isn't the answer to everything, but it can be part"},{"startTime":2241.467,"endTime":2245.25,"body":"of the answer to many things. Our children's charity, initially"},{"startTime":2245.29,"endTime":2249.415,"body":"we started doing it with working with young carers and then scholarships. headteachers"},{"startTime":2249.455,"endTime":2252.761,"body":"would send children into our classes so that we could help build their"},{"startTime":2252.801,"endTime":2256.147,"body":"confidence. And then I went to one school and I said to the headteacher, do"},{"startTime":2256.187,"endTime":2259.733,"body":"you have, you know, I've got two scholarship places. She said, I've got 200 people"},{"startTime":2259.753,"endTime":2263.405,"body":"I could send you, Joanne, 200 kids that would benefit from this. but"},{"startTime":2263.765,"endTime":2267.426,"body":"the area that the school was in, nobody's going to bring them down on a Saturday morning."},{"startTime":2268.186,"endTime":2271.367,"body":"They're not going to turn up at 5.30 at your studio to pick them up on"},{"startTime":2271.387,"endTime":2274.768,"body":"a Monday night. So if you can bring it to us, we'll"},{"startTime":2274.788,"endTime":2278.068,"body":"do it. So I went back to Melissa going, how are we going to do this? And"},{"startTime":2278.309,"endTime":2281.569,"body":"Melissa and I came up with taking it in a suitcase and we went into"},{"startTime":2281.589,"endTime":2284.91,"body":"the classroom and the children come to us in the classroom. So it's"},{"startTime":2284.97,"endTime":2288.111,"body":"that, it evolves. Melissa and I describe it"},{"startTime":2288.211,"endTime":2291.992,"body":"as organic evolution of the business or making"},{"startTime":2295.016,"endTime":2298.923,"body":"Yeah, but you're presented with a need and then you"},{"startTime":2299.043,"endTime":2302.289,"body":"creatively work out how you can meet that need and"},{"startTime":2303.205,"endTime":2306.908,"body":"Yeah, we do. Melissa is also very much about the"},{"startTime":2306.968,"endTime":2310.47,"body":"sustainability element of it, not just environmentally. We're"},{"startTime":2310.49,"endTime":2313.853,"body":"very, very keen to make everything we do as"},{"startTime":2313.953,"endTime":2317.235,"body":"environmentally sustainable as possible. But for example, if we take"},{"startTime":2317.255,"endTime":2320.617,"body":"a child onto a scholarship, they could be with us for"},{"startTime":2320.938,"endTime":2324.44,"body":"10 to 12 years. So we need to make sure that we've"},{"startTime":2324.48,"endTime":2327.802,"body":"got enough money that we can take them through this journey. We can't"},{"startTime":2327.842,"endTime":2331.205,"body":"tell them, age 13, when they've been with us since they were five, sorry"},{"startTime":2331.225,"endTime":2334.507,"body":"love, that's it, it's over for you. And that's, you know, so much of"},{"startTime":2334.727,"endTime":2337.969,"body":"the business and charity planning that Melissa does, is"},{"startTime":2338.009,"endTime":2341.291,"body":"to ensure that there's a longevity to what we do."},{"startTime":2341.311,"endTime":2344.973,"body":"I wonder how and"},{"startTime":2345.013,"endTime":2349.576,"body":"you may already have thoughts on this, how we can break"},{"startTime":2349.696,"endTime":2353.097,"body":"the barrier bit. You're talking about primary school and"},{"startTime":2353.117,"endTime":2356.259,"body":"young children, and then getting to a point, whether it"},{"startTime":2356.319,"endTime":2359.821,"body":"be as your story was, or anybody else's story,"},{"startTime":2359.861,"endTime":2363.163,"body":"that that then stops. And then over here, I'm moving"},{"startTime":2363.203,"endTime":2366.398,"body":"my hands around, listening really helpfully for audio. over"},{"startTime":2366.478,"endTime":2369.561,"body":"here when you're grown up and then you go back to it."},{"startTime":2369.601,"endTime":2373.285,"body":"But what can be done in the middle to bridge, to"},{"startTime":2373.325,"endTime":2376.488,"body":"continue for people to still feel they"},{"startTime":2379.619,"endTime":2383.14,"body":"One of the elements I love about our online courses, because of the community we've"},{"startTime":2383.22,"endTime":2386.481,"body":"built, I feel like we're all learning from each other all the time. One"},{"startTime":2386.521,"endTime":2391.243,"body":"of the students is a very experienced primary school teacher. I"},{"startTime":2391.303,"endTime":2395.024,"body":"knew about growth mindset, but she's shown me books to read. She's really educated"},{"startTime":2395.064,"endTime":2398.325,"body":"me on that. That's the way forward, that"},{"startTime":2398.425,"endTime":2401.726,"body":"it's such a simple concept that can apply"},{"startTime":2401.766,"endTime":2404.947,"body":"to any area of your life. Not, I can't do it,"},{"startTime":2405.707,"endTime":2409.11,"body":"but I can't do it yet. It's very frightening watching"},{"startTime":2409.15,"endTime":2413.032,"body":"what's happening in education, as a parent and an artist, to"},{"startTime":2413.132,"endTime":2416.553,"body":"watch creativity be pushed further"},{"startTime":2416.593,"endTime":2420.335,"body":"and further and further down on a list of priorities. It"},{"startTime":2420.395,"endTime":2424.724,"body":"makes me so, so angry because, A, We"},{"startTime":2424.784,"endTime":2428.408,"body":"need creativity and we need the arts for our mental health. But"},{"startTime":2428.788,"endTime":2432.652,"body":"B, it's just economically so blind when"},{"startTime":2433.173,"endTime":2436.596,"body":"some of the most fastest growing areas of"},{"startTime":2436.636,"endTime":2439.8,"body":"the economy are in the creative sector. So"},{"startTime":2440.02,"endTime":2443.704,"body":"film in the UK is one of the biggest growing industries. It's"},{"startTime":2443.744,"endTime":2447.067,"body":"a multi-billion pound industry. And yet we're saying to kids,"},{"startTime":2447.527,"endTime":2450.77,"body":"oh, well, you're not going to make any money doing that, are you? We've got"},{"startTime":2450.83,"endTime":2454.133,"body":"children who've left the little art school who are going into different fields. So they've been"},{"startTime":2454.173,"endTime":2458.076,"body":"with us for years. One's training now to do graphic magazines."},{"startTime":2458.316,"endTime":2461.559,"body":"Another one's gone into gaming. Another one is film and"},{"startTime":2461.619,"endTime":2465.241,"body":"costume design. These are growing sectors. And"},{"startTime":2465.282,"endTime":2469.445,"body":"it's almost like as though there's a government fixation on"},{"startTime":2469.525,"endTime":2473.249,"body":"STEM. which is really to"},{"startTime":2473.289,"endTime":2476.532,"body":"the detriment of the creative arts. And I think it's"},{"startTime":2479.175,"endTime":2483.098,"body":"Those roles with tech are growing exponentially. The"},{"startTime":2483.138,"endTime":2486.722,"body":"young people are doing things that, you know, jobs that didn't exist"},{"startTime":2486.982,"endTime":2490.365,"body":"when we were in school. But the curriculum is still the same,"},{"startTime":2490.606,"endTime":2493.909,"body":"even though everything is moving so much faster. I hear some"},{"startTime":2493.949,"endTime":2497.715,"body":"lovely stories of people working in like creating"},{"startTime":2497.835,"endTime":2501.22,"body":"whole other worlds, which I find fascinating. And for"},{"startTime":2501.241,"endTime":2504.425,"body":"that, you need creative minds and you need the tech associated with"},{"startTime":2504.506,"endTime":2507.791,"body":"it and you need to be encouraging that. So yeah, completely agree."},{"startTime":2508.273,"endTime":2512.036,"body":"And having an education system that's based on a growth mindset"},{"startTime":2512.376,"endTime":2516.139,"body":"that cherishes creativity and puts it at its heart, it's"},{"startTime":2516.179,"endTime":2519.461,"body":"got to be the future. We're still teaching children in"},{"startTime":2519.501,"endTime":2523.143,"body":"a Victorian way. You know, even the school terms are"},{"startTime":2525.845,"endTime":2529.008,"body":"And as well, I think the methods of learning and methods of"},{"startTime":2529.368,"endTime":2532.49,"body":"showing your intelligence. There are other ways to"},{"startTime":2532.55,"endTime":2536.173,"body":"learn and there are other ways to show the knowledge"},{"startTime":2536.233,"endTime":2539.796,"body":"that you have. But we could be on this topic for ages."},{"startTime":2539.816,"endTime":2543.019,"body":"So I'm going to jump in and ask, how can people connect with you,"},{"startTime":2543.913,"endTime":2547.734,"body":"So, the easiest way to connect is to go to the Little Art School website."},{"startTime":2547.854,"endTime":2553.936,"body":"So, it's really easy to find. It's www.littleartschool.co.uk. And"},{"startTime":2553.956,"endTime":2557.498,"body":"that takes you to the company and there's loads of buttons all"},{"startTime":2557.598,"endTime":2561.079,"body":"over it that say messages, email us. And if"},{"startTime":2561.099,"endTime":2564.52,"body":"you want to get in touch with me personally, just click on one of those and"},{"startTime":2564.54,"endTime":2567.921,"body":"say, I'd like to reach out to Japan. to"},{"startTime":2567.941,"endTime":2571.203,"body":"Joanne and someone from"},{"startTime":2571.263,"endTime":2574.905,"body":"our team will always forward it to me and I will always, always reply"},{"startTime":2574.925,"endTime":2578.788,"body":"to things. I'm on LinkedIn, which I do use occasionally"},{"startTime":2579.268,"endTime":2582.59,"body":"and you can find me at Joanne Robinson on LinkedIn. We're on"},{"startTime":2582.67,"endTime":2586.032,"body":"all the usuals, Facebook, Instagram, we're"},{"startTime":2591.064,"endTime":2594.705,"body":"Oh, thank you, Claire. You see, you can't just point"},{"startTime":2594.765,"endTime":2598.026,"body":"the microphone at me and then I'll never go quiet. I chat far too"},{"startTime":2599.507,"endTime":2603.528,"body":"Thank you. Thanks"},{"startTime":2603.568,"endTime":2606.809,"body":"so much for listening to Creativity Found. I hope you enjoyed this"},{"startTime":2606.869,"endTime":2610.41,"body":"episode and gained some value from it. If you did, perhaps"},{"startTime":2610.45,"endTime":2614.571,"body":"you'd like to contribute a small monetary sign of appreciation, either"},{"startTime":2614.631,"endTime":2618.152,"body":"by becoming a regular supporter from as little as $3 per"},{"startTime":2618.192,"endTime":2621.474,"body":"month using the link in the show notes, or if you're"},{"startTime":2621.534,"endTime":2624.777,"body":"listening on a value-for-value enabled app such"},{"startTime":2624.837,"endTime":2628.26,"body":"as Fountain, Truefans or Podverse, feel free to"},{"startTime":2628.3,"endTime":2632.004,"body":"send a few sats my way. I also occasionally promote"},{"startTime":2632.044,"endTime":2635.167,"body":"products that I personally use, so please use"},{"startTime":2635.187,"endTime":2638.61,"body":"the affiliate link where relevant if you are buying from those fine"}]}