{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":8.127,"endTime":11.516,"body":"And it was such a terrible experience that it"},{"startTime":11.556,"endTime":15.025,"body":"really derailed me for almost a decade."},{"startTime":16.281,"endTime":19.423,"body":"On my first day as a lawyer, I"},{"startTime":19.583,"endTime":22.805,"body":"knew that I was in the wrong profession. It was like, I"},{"startTime":22.885,"endTime":25.927,"body":"feel like I am in a play. This is not my life. I"},{"startTime":25.967,"endTime":29.169,"body":"am in a play. I'm acting as a character who"},{"startTime":29.249,"endTime":32.551,"body":"is not me. This is someone else's life. I"},{"startTime":32.571,"endTime":36.093,"body":"took a huge pay cut. I still had a lot of student loan"},{"startTime":36.113,"endTime":39.194,"body":"debt that I had to start paying back. But no part of"},{"startTime":39.254,"endTime":42.616,"body":"me regretted that decision because my"},{"startTime":42.676,"endTime":46.397,"body":"quality of life was just so much better. I was so much happier. Because"},{"startTime":46.538,"endTime":49.682,"body":"even if you have 99 positive reviews, the one that's not is"},{"startTime":49.722,"endTime":52.926,"body":"the one that lingers and that you lie in bed thinking about. So it's like, don't"},{"startTime":55.0,"endTime":58.622,"body":"Hi, I'm Claire, founder of Creativity Found, a"},{"startTime":58.662,"endTime":62.584,"body":"community for creative learners and educators, connecting adults"},{"startTime":62.724,"endTime":65.866,"body":"who want to find a creative outlet with the artists and"},{"startTime":65.906,"endTime":69.448,"body":"crafters who can help them do so with workshops, courses,"},{"startTime":69.928,"endTime":73.21,"body":"online events and kits. For this podcast, I"},{"startTime":73.27,"endTime":77.072,"body":"chat with people who have found or re-found their creativity"},{"startTime":77.312,"endTime":81.054,"body":"as adults. We'll explore their childhood experiences of"},{"startTime":81.094,"endTime":84.817,"body":"the arts, discuss how they came to the artistic practices they"},{"startTime":84.877,"endTime":88.699,"body":"now love, and consider the barriers they may have experienced between"},{"startTime":88.739,"endTime":92.161,"body":"the two. We'll also explore what it is that people"},{"startTime":92.241,"endTime":96.583,"body":"value and gain from their newfound artistic pursuits, and"},{"startTime":96.683,"endTime":100.345,"body":"how their creative lives enrich their practical, necessary,"},{"startTime":100.785,"endTime":104.347,"body":"everyday lives. This time I'm chatting with"},{"startTime":104.407,"endTime":107.839,"body":"Mary Adkins. Hi, Mary. How are you?"},{"startTime":111.4,"endTime":114.782,"body":"You're very welcome. It's lovely to speak with you. Tell me,"},{"startTime":114.982,"endTime":118.984,"body":"first of all, what gets your creative juices flowing"},{"startTime":120.984,"endTime":124.286,"body":"Well, I'm primarily a writer. I write novels. So"},{"startTime":124.306,"endTime":127.667,"body":"that's really my my main thing. Although lately"},{"startTime":127.727,"endTime":131.189,"body":"I've gotten into cooking and making bread"},{"startTime":131.209,"endTime":134.39,"body":"and I'm thinking about signing up"},{"startTime":134.41,"endTime":137.922,"body":"for a sewing class. So I'm diversifying a little bit, but primarily"},{"startTime":139.228,"endTime":142.531,"body":"Yeah, oh brilliant. That's new to me since"},{"startTime":142.571,"endTime":146.093,"body":"we last spoke, the cooking and the sewing. It is,"},{"startTime":146.213,"endTime":149.876,"body":"yes. Brilliant. Okay, so did writing"},{"startTime":150.136,"endTime":154.019,"body":"and other kind of creative activities, did they feature heavily"},{"startTime":154.079,"endTime":157.642,"body":"in your childhood and were they encouraged at home,"},{"startTime":159.484,"endTime":162.766,"body":"Very much so. I was a big writer as a child. My mom still"},{"startTime":162.806,"endTime":166.289,"body":"has all the stories I wrote when I was a little girl."},{"startTime":166.309,"endTime":169.491,"body":"The first story I ever wrote was called The Baby, and"},{"startTime":169.531,"endTime":173.012,"body":"it's about a princess who has to live with a baby who won't stop crying,"},{"startTime":173.052,"endTime":176.213,"body":"and so she throws it in a dumpster and then feels bad and rescues it."},{"startTime":177.073,"endTime":180.194,"body":"And it's definitely when my little sister was born, I think I"},{"startTime":180.214,"endTime":183.856,"body":"was writing that story. So like, I was always"},{"startTime":184.296,"endTime":188.617,"body":"creative. At home it was very encouraged, and I"},{"startTime":188.778,"endTime":192.202,"body":"think I also, just my personality type, I really,"},{"startTime":192.782,"endTime":196.307,"body":"even from being a little girl, like I loved affirmation from adults."},{"startTime":197.288,"endTime":200.932,"body":"And so I really steered toward things"},{"startTime":201.393,"endTime":204.997,"body":"where I'd get that kind of affirmation, which for me was more creative and"},{"startTime":205.057,"endTime":208.44,"body":"less, for example, athletics. I was not"},{"startTime":208.46,"endTime":211.622,"body":"the sportiest. And as soon as it was clear to me that"},{"startTime":211.662,"endTime":215.023,"body":"that wasn't going to be what I was very good at, I set that aside."},{"startTime":215.043,"endTime":218.625,"body":"I was never a sports person. We bought my son cleats over the weekend and"},{"startTime":218.725,"endTime":221.987,"body":"my husband said, it's such a big deal to get your first pair of cleats. And I said, I've"},{"startTime":224.908,"endTime":228.41,"body":"No, I completely agree. I do like my husband's input for"},{"startTime":228.65,"endTime":231.851,"body":"buying sporty things. I'll go to Cathlon and go, Oh"},{"startTime":231.871,"endTime":237.052,"body":"my God, this is so scary. I've got no idea what's going on. So"},{"startTime":237.192,"endTime":240.978,"body":"did you plan to continue that?"},{"startTime":241.038,"endTime":244.464,"body":"Was it part of your, if you had a plan for the future"},{"startTime":246.988,"endTime":250.133,"body":"Yes, absolutely. I plan to be a writer. I"},{"startTime":250.173,"endTime":253.634,"body":"mean, I When I was applying to college, I remember I"},{"startTime":253.694,"endTime":257.076,"body":"applied for creative writing scholarships. I just knew"},{"startTime":257.096,"endTime":260.817,"body":"that I wanted to write. It was very clear to me. And"},{"startTime":260.877,"endTime":264.019,"body":"then I got to college and I was"},{"startTime":264.039,"endTime":267.52,"body":"getting a liberal arts degree. So they required, you know, the"},{"startTime":267.56,"endTime":270.802,"body":"curriculum included just like a diverse array of things"},{"startTime":270.882,"endTime":274.043,"body":"across the sciences and the liberal arts. But as soon as I"},{"startTime":274.083,"endTime":277.385,"body":"had an opportunity to sign up for an elective, I signed up"},{"startTime":277.405,"endTime":281.032,"body":"for a creative writing class. and just"},{"startTime":281.072,"endTime":284.494,"body":"thought that that was going to be what I did. And it was such"},{"startTime":284.534,"endTime":288.035,"body":"a terrible experience that it really derailed me"},{"startTime":288.175,"endTime":291.656,"body":"for almost a decade. So I"},{"startTime":291.696,"endTime":295.157,"body":"did not do well in this class. It was a short story writing"},{"startTime":295.197,"endTime":298.398,"body":"class taught by a local author. So she was"},{"startTime":299.038,"endTime":302.682,"body":"She was not a full professor, and I only share that to"},{"startTime":302.702,"endTime":305.925,"body":"say, looking back, I don't know how much teaching experience she"},{"startTime":305.965,"endTime":309.268,"body":"had. She had publishing experience, she was a published writer,"},{"startTime":309.328,"endTime":313.185,"body":"but the way that she ran this class In"},{"startTime":313.265,"endTime":316.649,"body":"my memory, it was very critical. It was like we were critical of"},{"startTime":316.689,"endTime":320.553,"body":"each other. She was critical of us. And I"},{"startTime":320.653,"endTime":324.097,"body":"didn't do well in it. I made like a B minus, I think, on"},{"startTime":324.137,"endTime":327.92,"body":"my first story. And that was really, you know,"},{"startTime":328.061,"endTime":331.384,"body":"like I said, I was someone who loved affirmation. So I was like, had always made"},{"startTime":331.424,"endTime":334.627,"body":"sure to be a straight A student. Like I would like lose a"},{"startTime":334.687,"endTime":338.71,"body":"leg before I didn't make an A. So to get a B- at"},{"startTime":338.77,"endTime":342.212,"body":"the thing I loved most when I had worked really hard and"},{"startTime":342.272,"endTime":346.454,"body":"at a school where we had pretty significant grade inflation. So like B-"},{"startTime":346.534,"endTime":349.636,"body":"weren't really a thing. Like it was, you"},{"startTime":349.656,"endTime":352.817,"body":"know, as long as you kind of tried your best, maybe you'd get a B, but"},{"startTime":352.897,"endTime":356.299,"body":"like B- was the equivalent of a D or an F."},{"startTime":356.439,"endTime":359.64,"body":"And I just thought, well, I must not be as good at this as"},{"startTime":359.7,"endTime":362.922,"body":"I thought. I must not know how to do this. I must"},{"startTime":362.962,"endTime":366.354,"body":"not know how to write fiction. And so I didn't take"},{"startTime":366.414,"endTime":370.098,"body":"another creative writing class in all of college. I just redirected. I"},{"startTime":370.339,"endTime":374.804,"body":"majored in public policy. I went to law school. And"},{"startTime":374.844,"endTime":378.268,"body":"that was an interest too. I've always been interested in the law and justice. So"},{"startTime":378.308,"endTime":381.451,"body":"it's not that that didn't interest me, but it"},{"startTime":381.531,"endTime":385.415,"body":"wasn't my first passion. My first passion was"},{"startTime":385.455,"endTime":389.259,"body":"the creativity. Now, to skip ahead, the ironic"},{"startTime":389.319,"endTime":392.641,"body":"part is that I'm a novelist. If I've had any"},{"startTime":392.701,"endTime":396.044,"body":"career, it's been that. I became a fiction writer"},{"startTime":396.124,"endTime":399.466,"body":"professionally. I look back on that time"},{"startTime":399.526,"endTime":402.749,"body":"now when I was 18, and I had that"},{"startTime":403.089,"endTime":407.352,"body":"one professor who I gave so much power over"},{"startTime":407.412,"endTime":410.756,"body":"defining me and I don't blame myself for doing that"},{"startTime":410.856,"endTime":414.359,"body":"because I was young and a novice and I didn't know"},{"startTime":414.399,"endTime":417.623,"body":"better. I thought, well, she must know who's good"},{"startTime":417.663,"endTime":420.902,"body":"at this and who isn't. But it does make me"},{"startTime":421.023,"endTime":424.304,"body":"sad. And now as a teacher of writing, I"},{"startTime":424.764,"endTime":427.965,"body":"work with adults, so mostly older than college age."},{"startTime":428.086,"endTime":431.607,"body":"But it's very interesting to me that so"},{"startTime":431.667,"endTime":436.129,"body":"many adults have stories like this about being"},{"startTime":436.229,"endTime":439.35,"body":"in some kind of class setting or workshop setting early on,"},{"startTime":439.711,"endTime":443.892,"body":"where there was like one teacher who somehow"},{"startTime":444.013,"endTime":447.315,"body":"ended up, you know, they ended up leaving that class thinking that they're"},{"startTime":447.355,"endTime":450.496,"body":"not good at this, and then they don't do it again for years and"},{"startTime":451.377,"endTime":454.539,"body":"Yeah, it's not new. It's so sad that it is"},{"startTime":454.619,"endTime":458.001,"body":"not new to me, having had 90 plus"},{"startTime":458.041,"endTime":461.463,"body":"guests on this show, that I have heard that a number of"},{"startTime":461.543,"endTime":465.145,"body":"times, whether at school, even, you know, even quite a young age,"},{"startTime":465.225,"endTime":468.688,"body":"which is even sadder, right the way through. Yeah, it's..."},{"startTime":470.039,"endTime":473.323,"body":"a recurring theme. But the good thing is in this"},{"startTime":473.423,"endTime":476.567,"body":"show is we have the encouragement to actually hear that"},{"startTime":476.607,"endTime":479.93,"body":"people do get back to it. So we will get back to"},{"startTime":479.97,"endTime":483.414,"body":"that. But tell me about law and public policy and"},{"startTime":487.853,"endTime":491.517,"body":"I majored in public policy in college and then I applied"},{"startTime":491.657,"endTime":494.82,"body":"and went to law school. I always liked being a student. I like"},{"startTime":494.84,"endTime":497.983,"body":"to learn. I still love to learn. Sometimes I flirt with going back to"},{"startTime":498.023,"endTime":501.187,"body":"school just to study something for fun, you know, like sewing. But"},{"startTime":502.348,"endTime":505.711,"body":"I just like being in the classroom setting. It's always been a true"},{"startTime":505.791,"endTime":509.075,"body":"joy of mine. So I really liked law school. It"},{"startTime":509.115,"endTime":512.638,"body":"was fun. I liked learning. Reading cases is"},{"startTime":512.698,"endTime":515.822,"body":"basically just reading stories. You know, they all start with the story of"},{"startTime":515.862,"endTime":519.205,"body":"somebody that has a problem and then it has to be solved through the law."},{"startTime":519.726,"endTime":524.091,"body":"So I, in a way, law school was kind of a distraction in"},{"startTime":524.131,"endTime":527.294,"body":"the sense that from kind of like the trajectory my"},{"startTime":527.334,"endTime":530.398,"body":"life was going because I was having fun. But then I got out of"},{"startTime":530.438,"endTime":534.825,"body":"law school, and on my first day as a lawyer, I"},{"startTime":534.965,"endTime":538.31,"body":"knew that I was in the wrong profession. It was like, the"},{"startTime":538.37,"endTime":541.695,"body":"way I described it to people, even that day, it was crazy how"},{"startTime":541.715,"endTime":544.859,"body":"much clarity I had immediately. It was like, I feel like I am"},{"startTime":544.9,"endTime":548.182,"body":"in a play. This is not my life. I am in a play. I'm"},{"startTime":548.482,"endTime":551.603,"body":"acting as a character who is not me. This is"},{"startTime":551.663,"endTime":555.165,"body":"someone else's life. And so it's not that it was so..."},{"startTime":555.365,"endTime":558.846,"body":"Because people are like, you must have been so miserable. Because I quit after"},{"startTime":558.886,"endTime":562.128,"body":"only seven months. I was only ever a lawyer for seven months. So"},{"startTime":562.148,"endTime":565.609,"body":"you must have been so miserable. And it's like, there"},{"startTime":565.649,"endTime":568.91,"body":"were aspects of the job I didn't like, for sure. But it was more this"},{"startTime":568.99,"endTime":572.992,"body":"sense of just being in the wrong life."},{"startTime":574.387,"endTime":577.854,"body":"It was very strange. Like, oh, this is not my life. I've"},{"startTime":577.895,"endTime":581.442,"body":"wound up in the wrong place. Almost like I were driving on a trip"},{"startTime":581.482,"endTime":584.769,"body":"and I just landed in the wrong city. Like, that's almost what it felt"},{"startTime":584.809,"endTime":588.048,"body":"like. And so by my second day, I"},{"startTime":588.088,"endTime":591.79,"body":"was looking for ways out. And people say, you must have been so miserable."},{"startTime":592.91,"endTime":596.212,"body":"But I hadn't even had time to be miserable yet. So it wasn't that. It"},{"startTime":596.252,"endTime":599.453,"body":"was just this sense of, this is just wrong. I'm not supposed to"},{"startTime":599.493,"endTime":602.635,"body":"be here. This is wrong. I'm supposed to be writing. I just had this"},{"startTime":602.695,"endTime":606.577,"body":"clarity. I need to be writing. And so when"},{"startTime":606.617,"endTime":610.611,"body":"I started looking for jobs on my second day, It"},{"startTime":610.651,"endTime":613.913,"body":"was just for jobs that would pay my bills so that I could have time"},{"startTime":613.953,"endTime":617.135,"body":"to write. My parents were very weirded out by"},{"startTime":617.195,"endTime":620.377,"body":"all of this. Like, you just graduated from law"},{"startTime":620.397,"endTime":623.598,"body":"school and you just started a new job. But I just had this"},{"startTime":623.658,"endTime":626.98,"body":"clarity around it. And it took me seven months to find"},{"startTime":627.04,"endTime":630.702,"body":"a job that would allow me to actually"},{"startTime":631.743,"endTime":635.245,"body":"be able to afford to live, so pay my bills, and"},{"startTime":635.325,"endTime":638.506,"body":"give me time to write, which was tutoring. And so I would"},{"startTime":638.546,"endTime":642.028,"body":"tutor mainly in the evenings because I was tutoring adults, many"},{"startTime":642.068,"endTime":645.329,"body":"of whom had work or school. And so I"},{"startTime":645.389,"endTime":648.851,"body":"would write during the day and tutor at night. And"},{"startTime":648.951,"endTime":652.812,"body":"I did this for about seven years. And"},{"startTime":652.832,"endTime":656.193,"body":"during that time, I was just being creative in the day. I was working on what would become my"},{"startTime":656.233,"endTime":659.534,"body":"first novel and then my second novel. And I was writing other"},{"startTime":659.574,"endTime":662.875,"body":"things, too, writing essays, personal essays. I really liked"},{"startTime":662.975,"endTime":667.196,"body":"writing a play at one point. So it was"},{"startTime":667.236,"endTime":670.397,"body":"a really happy time. I mean, I had to change apartments. I took"},{"startTime":670.437,"endTime":673.758,"body":"a huge pay cut. I still had a lot of student loan"},{"startTime":673.798,"endTime":676.878,"body":"debt that I had to start paying back. But no part of"},{"startTime":676.938,"endTime":680.259,"body":"me regretted that decision. because my"},{"startTime":682.841,"endTime":686.062,"body":"Wow, that's amazing. So you were"},{"startTime":686.102,"endTime":689.624,"body":"writing in all sorts of genres, but going back to"},{"startTime":689.744,"endTime":693.666,"body":"the unhappy experience of writing fiction,"},{"startTime":693.926,"endTime":697.108,"body":"did you include that in this new life that you had"},{"startTime":697.248,"endTime":700.83,"body":"straight away, or were you still a bit wary of going"},{"startTime":702.011,"endTime":705.272,"body":"Okay, so I still assumed I could not write fiction because of that"},{"startTime":705.412,"endTime":708.754,"body":"college experience. And so I was writing all"},{"startTime":708.814,"endTime":712.356,"body":"nonfiction. I did not touch fiction. I was only writing personal"},{"startTime":712.416,"endTime":715.557,"body":"essays. I decided I was going to write a funny memoir that"},{"startTime":715.597,"endTime":719.979,"body":"was humorous about my escapades as a child. A"},{"startTime":720.98,"endTime":724.181,"body":"lot of those were popular at the time, and so I thought maybe this is my way"},{"startTime":724.221,"endTime":727.443,"body":"to get a book published. And so I"},{"startTime":727.503,"endTime":730.744,"body":"pitched that book to a literary agent, and"},{"startTime":730.864,"endTime":734.368,"body":"he wrote back and said, This is a very 90s"},{"startTime":734.428,"endTime":737.834,"body":"book. Like, I could have sold this in the 90s, but I can't sell this now."},{"startTime":738.254,"endTime":742.782,"body":"But I like your writing. Do you have a novel? Do"},{"startTime":742.802,"endTime":746.229,"body":"you have a novel? Like, who says to someone, do you have a novel? Of"},{"startTime":746.289,"endTime":749.69,"body":"course, I did not have a novel, but I had had a secret novel"},{"startTime":749.77,"endTime":753.23,"body":"idea that I hadn't told anyone because I thought, I'm not good at fiction."},{"startTime":753.25,"endTime":756.391,"body":"I shouldn't do fiction. But this person had just asked me if I had"},{"startTime":756.411,"endTime":759.612,"body":"a novel. So I wrote back, well, I do have this"},{"startTime":759.692,"endTime":763.553,"body":"idea for a novel. And I wrote a little paragraph about it. And"},{"startTime":763.633,"endTime":767.153,"body":"he wrote back, that sounds so great. I"},{"startTime":767.213,"endTime":770.554,"body":"love this idea. Write the novel and then send it to me. And"},{"startTime":770.594,"endTime":773.735,"body":"that's why I did it. This one person is responsible for"},{"startTime":773.775,"endTime":777.208,"body":"my entire what became my career because"},{"startTime":777.228,"endTime":780.31,"body":"he gave me permission to just try it."},{"startTime":780.971,"endTime":784.174,"body":"And he didn't become my literary agent, by the way. Years later, he didn't want"},{"startTime":784.214,"endTime":787.537,"body":"the novel, but that was fine because it didn't really matter. I had"},{"startTime":788.518,"endTime":791.56,"body":"Yeah. So it took you time to write it?"},{"startTime":797.287,"endTime":800.668,"body":"How were you feeling when you were doing that?"},{"startTime":800.688,"endTime":803.988,"body":"And were you feeling confident? Did you feel there"},{"startTime":804.028,"endTime":807.809,"body":"were holes in your knowledge or confidence or"},{"startTime":808.93,"endTime":813.531,"body":"Oh, absolutely. You know, it's interesting looking back. I"},{"startTime":813.611,"endTime":816.791,"body":"think because I had had such a bad experience in"},{"startTime":816.831,"endTime":820.052,"body":"that one creative writing class, I sort of swung to"},{"startTime":820.092,"endTime":823.513,"body":"the other end, like I was like a pendulum that swung"},{"startTime":823.593,"endTime":826.749,"body":"to the other extreme. And I"},{"startTime":827.31,"endTime":831.255,"body":"did not sign up for a class. I did not read a book. I"},{"startTime":831.375,"endTime":835.372,"body":"googled how many words are in a novel. And"},{"startTime":835.432,"endTime":838.754,"body":"then I just wrote until I hit that dumper. And"},{"startTime":838.794,"endTime":842.055,"body":"it was so much fun. I mean, I"},{"startTime":842.116,"endTime":845.197,"body":"remember like I wrote a lot of it in bed. I'd just be sitting up"},{"startTime":845.537,"endTime":848.719,"body":"at night and wake up in the morning and just start adding to it. And it was,"},{"startTime":849.419,"endTime":852.781,"body":"I felt alive. Like it was just fun and exciting. And"},{"startTime":852.801,"endTime":856.103,"body":"this is in many ways why it did take me six years because that"},{"startTime":856.163,"endTime":860.485,"body":"draft was extremely messy and not just messy. I mean, it"},{"startTime":860.565,"endTime":866.338,"body":"was a first novel draft, but it wasn't, um, It"},{"startTime":866.418,"endTime":870.363,"body":"needed a lot of revision, I guess is the way to put it. It"},{"startTime":870.443,"endTime":873.586,"body":"needed structural work. It needed character development. It"},{"startTime":873.646,"endTime":877.31,"body":"needed a consistent theme. And so I"},{"startTime":877.35,"endTime":880.574,"body":"worked on it for years and years. I wrote many drafts of it. But that"},{"startTime":880.674,"endTime":884.178,"body":"first one, I just still have warm, fuzzy feelings about"},{"startTime":888.344,"endTime":891.788,"body":"Yeah. And you're still tutoring and writing other things"},{"startTime":895.713,"endTime":898.796,"body":"Yeah. So did you send it to"},{"startTime":900.618,"endTime":904.723,"body":"When I was done, I did send it to that literary agent, and"},{"startTime":904.743,"endTime":910.012,"body":"I never heard back from him. He ghosted me. But"},{"startTime":910.072,"endTime":913.334,"body":"I found another literary agent who became mine, and she"},{"startTime":913.414,"endTime":916.836,"body":"sold that book and then my two subsequent novels"},{"startTime":916.936,"endTime":920.179,"body":"after that. So my next two novels I"},{"startTime":920.239,"endTime":923.941,"body":"wrote more quickly, and those I worked on"},{"startTime":924.222,"endTime":927.824,"body":"in really different circumstances. My second novel"},{"startTime":928.044,"endTime":931.327,"body":"I wrote after having a baby, in the months after"},{"startTime":931.387,"endTime":935.135,"body":"having a baby while I was Yeah, still nursing and everything. So"},{"startTime":935.196,"endTime":939.039,"body":"that was a really specific kind of creative experience. And"},{"startTime":939.099,"endTime":942.401,"body":"then my third novel I wrote during"},{"startTime":942.421,"endTime":945.664,"body":"the pandemic. So that was also a very specific kind of"},{"startTime":946.785,"endTime":950.708,"body":"Yeah. Yeah. And do they follow similar themes"},{"startTime":952.57,"endTime":955.732,"body":"They're all really different. All three are"},{"startTime":955.792,"endTime":958.975,"body":"really different stories. The first one, for instance, is"},{"startTime":959.035,"endTime":962.358,"body":"really funny. There's a lot of laugh out loud moments. There's"},{"startTime":962.378,"endTime":965.741,"body":"a blog in it, and the blog is included in"},{"startTime":965.781,"endTime":969.344,"body":"the novel. I put a lot of internet comments on"},{"startTime":969.384,"endTime":973.127,"body":"the blog, so there's a lot of humor around our online communications"},{"startTime":973.167,"endTime":976.65,"body":"and how ridiculous those are these days. And then the second one"},{"startTime":976.71,"endTime":980.072,"body":"is more dramatic. It was about a sexual assault on a college"},{"startTime":980.132,"endTime":983.395,"body":"campus and the follow up from that. So the"},{"startTime":983.475,"endTime":986.677,"body":"hearing at the university and how the university deals with it."},{"startTime":987.277,"endTime":990.9,"body":"And it's really examining justice. That novel called Privilege is"},{"startTime":990.98,"endTime":994.202,"body":"really where my law background comes in. I got to"},{"startTime":994.242,"endTime":998.225,"body":"explore my interest in justice and legal proceedings. And"},{"startTime":998.245,"endTime":1002.008,"body":"then the third novel is about a caterer to a billionaire family"},{"startTime":1008.436,"endTime":1011.698,"body":"Where are these stories coming from that are so different? That's like"},{"startTime":1011.778,"endTime":1015.099,"body":"part of the fun for me is just waiting for the next idea, like when"},{"startTime":1015.139,"endTime":1018.361,"body":"it's going to appear and it feels kind of magical. I find that"},{"startTime":1018.401,"endTime":1021.743,"body":"really interesting too, like how ideas come. And"},{"startTime":1021.783,"endTime":1025.444,"body":"mine were all really different. I mean, the third novel,"},{"startTime":1025.504,"endTime":1028.725,"body":"the one that's set in Palm Beach, Florida, had a lot of"},{"startTime":1028.785,"endTime":1032.066,"body":"different iterations. Like it started out as one thing with certain"},{"startTime":1032.086,"endTime":1035.547,"body":"characters, and then it changed, and the title changed a bunch, and"},{"startTime":1035.967,"endTime":1039.608,"body":"even the setting changed. But the second, my second novel,"},{"startTime":1039.788,"endTime":1042.888,"body":"the Justice one called Privilege on a college campus, I"},{"startTime":1042.928,"endTime":1047.189,"body":"remember where I was when I had the idea. It kind of just like downloaded"},{"startTime":1047.229,"endTime":1050.398,"body":"into my brain fully formed. I was walking down"},{"startTime":1050.438,"endTime":1053.719,"body":"the street near my house and it was summer. I had on sandals because"},{"startTime":1053.739,"endTime":1057.599,"body":"I remember looking at my feet as I was walking, so"},{"startTime":1057.639,"endTime":1062.54,"body":"I didn't trip on anything because the sidewalk was uneven. It"},{"startTime":1062.58,"endTime":1066.161,"body":"was like, oh, it just came into my brain and"},{"startTime":1066.201,"endTime":1069.641,"body":"then it never changed. The premise didn't"},{"startTime":1069.661,"endTime":1073.262,"body":"change, the characters didn't change, the title didn't"},{"startTime":1073.282,"endTime":1076.763,"body":"change, the title came to me. I would"},{"startTime":1076.803,"endTime":1080.131,"body":"love for that to happen again because that was awesome. That was"},{"startTime":1082.753,"endTime":1086.056,"body":"Do you ever have any concerns about how other people will"},{"startTime":1090.519,"endTime":1094.022,"body":"Oh, definitely. I find the publishing process very stressful. It's"},{"startTime":1094.082,"endTime":1097.668,"body":"very it's the opposite of the creative"},{"startTime":1097.749,"endTime":1102.55,"body":"process. It's"},{"startTime":1102.59,"endTime":1105.951,"body":"like being perceived in the world and having it be out"},{"startTime":1106.031,"endTime":1109.551,"body":"there and then wondering what people think. I"},{"startTime":1109.591,"endTime":1112.672,"body":"mean, I did learn pretty early not to read reviews and I"},{"startTime":1112.792,"endTime":1116.053,"body":"do really try not to do that because it"},{"startTime":1116.433,"endTime":1120.174,"body":"usually doesn't end well. Because even if you have 99 positive"},{"startTime":1120.214,"endTime":1123.555,"body":"reviews, the one that's not is the one that lingers and that you lie in"},{"startTime":1123.575,"endTime":1126.816,"body":"bed thinking about. So it's like, don't do that to yourself. So yes,"},{"startTime":1129.417,"endTime":1133.158,"body":"Yeah. Yeah. Well, good for you for not reading the reviews. There"},{"startTime":1133.199,"endTime":1136.5,"body":"was a time when we didn't have reviews or we had to wait for the newspaper to"},{"startTime":1136.58,"endTime":1140.121,"body":"read reviews for theatre shows and you didn't have instant reviews for"},{"startTime":1150.333,"endTime":1153.776,"body":"Anyway, you said about your almost memoir about"},{"startTime":1153.916,"endTime":1157.439,"body":"the younger you, but you're writing a memoir now"},{"startTime":1157.519,"endTime":1160.782,"body":"I believe as well, aren't you? Can you tell me a bit about that and why"},{"startTime":1162.483,"endTime":1166.306,"body":"Yeah, so I just completed my first memoir And"},{"startTime":1166.847,"endTime":1170.729,"body":"it is very different than that first one that I pitched years ago. So"},{"startTime":1170.829,"endTime":1173.93,"body":"this one is about a year of miscarriages, that I"},{"startTime":1173.97,"endTime":1177.532,"body":"had three miscarriages in about nine months, and how that"},{"startTime":1177.592,"endTime":1180.914,"body":"experience was life-changing, or the better,"},{"startTime":1181.254,"endTime":1184.936,"body":"actually. Like how it led me to a sense of wonder and"},{"startTime":1184.996,"endTime":1188.398,"body":"to really examine how I was living and my relationship with my body."},{"startTime":1188.758,"endTime":1192.12,"body":"Those had been unexamined before. at least to the degree that"},{"startTime":1192.3,"endTime":1195.421,"body":"this year of losses led me to. And so that's what the"},{"startTime":1195.461,"endTime":1198.663,"body":"memoir is about. It's called You Might Feel a Little Pressure. I'm"},{"startTime":1198.703,"endTime":1201.965,"body":"in the process of pitching it to publishers right now, so it's still very"},{"startTime":1202.785,"endTime":1206.507,"body":"And was it something that you felt obviously you needed it for yourself? Did"},{"startTime":1206.547,"endTime":1209.769,"body":"you think, well, you're saying that you're pitching it, so I guess you do think you"},{"startTime":1212.464,"endTime":1216.066,"body":"Oh, absolutely, because I've always found"},{"startTime":1216.126,"endTime":1219.387,"body":"comfort in reading, particularly memoir. I mean, I read"},{"startTime":1219.907,"endTime":1223.729,"body":"a lot of fiction, too, for fun. But when I'm struggling through"},{"startTime":1223.809,"endTime":1227.131,"body":"something, my go-to is to read other people's stories of"},{"startTime":1227.191,"endTime":1230.472,"body":"having gone through it. It just gives me so much comfort. It helps"},{"startTime":1230.532,"endTime":1233.694,"body":"me see it in new ways. And so when I"},{"startTime":1233.734,"endTime":1236.877,"body":"had my first miscarriage, I thought, I"},{"startTime":1236.917,"endTime":1240.72,"body":"need to go find memoirs about this. There must be a lot. And"},{"startTime":1240.82,"endTime":1244.803,"body":"there were virtually none. I found one. And so once"},{"startTime":1244.963,"endTime":1248.506,"body":"I kind of came out of that year and felt like, wow, I really have"},{"startTime":1248.706,"endTime":1252.149,"body":"a lot that I'm unpacking and that I want to say about it."},{"startTime":1252.309,"endTime":1256.032,"body":"And I was still in it. Like you said, I've always processed through"},{"startTime":1256.052,"endTime":1259.674,"body":"writing. And so I thought, I want to process"},{"startTime":1259.734,"endTime":1262.959,"body":"this year through writing in a way that I don't"},{"startTime":1263.019,"endTime":1266.204,"body":"just by thinking about it or even talking with others or even"},{"startTime":1266.244,"endTime":1271.163,"body":"talking with a therapist. Writing is so different for me. I"},{"startTime":1271.203,"endTime":1274.545,"body":"would like for this to be a memoir that I could share with other"},{"startTime":1274.565,"endTime":1277.787,"body":"women. I was really thinking of women going through"},{"startTime":1277.827,"endTime":1280.968,"body":"something similar as kind of who I"},{"startTime":1280.988,"endTime":1284.33,"body":"was writing it for. I wasn't thinking of it as I was writing as like,"},{"startTime":1284.83,"endTime":1288.432,"body":"the whole world needs to read this. It was more like I was imagining myself,"},{"startTime":1288.592,"endTime":1291.754,"body":"you know, 18 months earlier and what"},{"startTime":1293.952,"endTime":1297.277,"body":"Yeah, yeah. As well as writing your"},{"startTime":1297.377,"endTime":1300.862,"body":"own work, you also help other adults to"},{"startTime":1303.867,"endTime":1307.132,"body":"I started a program called The Book Incubator a"},{"startTime":1307.352,"endTime":1310.727,"body":"few years ago and it's It's all the stuff"},{"startTime":1310.747,"endTime":1314.049,"body":"that I kind of wish someone had told"},{"startTime":1314.129,"endTime":1317.451,"body":"me back when I was those six years that I was working on"},{"startTime":1317.491,"endTime":1321.074,"body":"my first novel. Things like, you know, just keep going."},{"startTime":1321.154,"endTime":1324.436,"body":"Like the first draft, you just need momentum, like get it done. And"},{"startTime":1324.476,"endTime":1327.799,"body":"then how to revise and then how publishing works. I didn't know"},{"startTime":1327.839,"endTime":1331.101,"body":"how publishing worked or the different paths to publishing, what my"},{"startTime":1331.241,"endTime":1334.323,"body":"options were. And if I if I wanted a big publisher, how do you"},{"startTime":1334.363,"endTime":1337.612,"body":"even go about that? What does that look like? So I"},{"startTime":1337.652,"endTime":1340.994,"body":"created this program and it's a year long and it's really"},{"startTime":1341.054,"endTime":1345.017,"body":"for adults who want to write and write a publishable novel"},{"startTime":1345.137,"endTime":1348.699,"body":"or memoir, because those are the things that I and the other instructors"},{"startTime":1348.739,"endTime":1352.281,"body":"in the program are experts in. So not kind of like business"},{"startTime":1352.341,"endTime":1355.763,"body":"books or how-to books. We don't do that because we don't know about that. So"},{"startTime":1355.803,"endTime":1359.205,"body":"it's really the long form narrative, whether it's fiction"},{"startTime":1359.245,"endTime":1362.747,"body":"or nonfiction. And we work with people to write, revise and pitch"},{"startTime":1364.788,"endTime":1367.991,"body":"And I've just thought of this question now, so you're not prepared for"},{"startTime":1368.011,"endTime":1371.635,"body":"this one. With your own teaching and"},{"startTime":1371.715,"endTime":1374.918,"body":"the other people that you have that teach with you,"},{"startTime":1374.938,"endTime":1378.762,"body":"do you ever look back at or"},{"startTime":1379.082,"endTime":1383.187,"body":"learn lessons from that particular professor and"},{"startTime":1383.627,"endTime":1386.95,"body":"know how not to do things or how you don't want to"},{"startTime":1389.553,"endTime":1392.674,"body":"Oh my gosh, absolutely. Yes. I"},{"startTime":1392.714,"endTime":1396.437,"body":"mean, for instance, there's no peer feedback because"},{"startTime":1397.435,"endTime":1401.056,"body":"I think feedback is a skill. People need to learn how to give feedback"},{"startTime":1401.116,"endTime":1404.296,"body":"and they also need to learn what even to look for. You know,"},{"startTime":1404.316,"endTime":1407.577,"body":"like there's just so many things that go into giving good feedback. And"},{"startTime":1407.677,"endTime":1411.558,"body":"so I think it's actually a very vulnerable thing"},{"startTime":1411.638,"endTime":1414.958,"body":"to expose your creative work to feedback from someone else."},{"startTime":1415.118,"endTime":1418.999,"body":"And so, yes, that is a direct reaction to"},{"startTime":1419.119,"endTime":1422.7,"body":"that experience. Our feedback only comes from professional"},{"startTime":1422.8,"endTime":1425.988,"body":"editors in the program who who've been doing this"},{"startTime":1426.028,"endTime":1429.529,"body":"for a living. So they know how to talk to writers, they know how to say helpful things"},{"startTime":1429.769,"endTime":1433.01,"body":"in a way that doesn't shut down a writer, but is"},{"startTime":1433.13,"endTime":1436.51,"body":"actionable, like gives them things that they can actually do to make it better, which"},{"startTime":1438.171,"endTime":1441.311,"body":"Yeah. I like that phrase, it doesn't shut down the"},{"startTime":1441.351,"endTime":1444.832,"body":"writer, because that's exactly what happened to you. You were shut down."},{"startTime":1444.892,"endTime":1448.793,"body":"Exactly. Yes. That's a very positive outcome"},{"startTime":1448.933,"endTime":1452.214,"body":"and learning from a rubbish situation as it was"},{"startTime":1452.354,"endTime":1455.658,"body":"at the time. But going forward now, do you have"},{"startTime":1455.758,"endTime":1459.347,"body":"plans for the future near or far? Creatively,"},{"startTime":1459.387,"endTime":1462.535,"body":"you mean? Well, you can tell me other stuff as well."},{"startTime":1464.9,"endTime":1470.063,"body":"Well, we have a soccer game this weekend. I"},{"startTime":1470.223,"endTime":1473.745,"body":"am. I'm starting a new novel, which is exciting. And"},{"startTime":1474.085,"endTime":1477.267,"body":"it's a fun one. It's one I'm having a lot of fun with."},{"startTime":1477.287,"endTime":1480.769,"body":"So I'm bringing some humor back into my work. And"},{"startTime":1480.809,"endTime":1484.131,"body":"I'm really trying to read it for myself. It's interesting because"},{"startTime":1484.471,"endTime":1487.953,"body":"it was a dream come true that I was able to publish novels and"},{"startTime":1487.973,"endTime":1491.474,"body":"I would get these book contracts and actually get paid for my work. It"},{"startTime":1491.555,"endTime":1494.716,"body":"becoming a professional career was a dream come true. But at the"},{"startTime":1494.756,"endTime":1498.098,"body":"same time, naturally, writing"},{"startTime":1498.158,"endTime":1501.46,"body":"turned into work. It was how I was paying my bills."},{"startTime":1501.52,"endTime":1504.702,"body":"I had deadlines. I was supporting my family with money I"},{"startTime":1504.722,"endTime":1508.224,"body":"was making through writing. And so it's just"},{"startTime":1508.324,"endTime":1511.626,"body":"interesting. I realized at some point, oh, mentally, I've gotten to"},{"startTime":1511.666,"endTime":1515.088,"body":"this place now where the thing that used"},{"startTime":1515.128,"endTime":1519.271,"body":"to be really fun and playful is now what I think of as work. And"},{"startTime":1519.611,"endTime":1524.314,"body":"for me, that doesn't make for great inspiration. You"},{"startTime":1524.334,"endTime":1527.756,"body":"know, like the idea of, I don't know, it's just not inspiring to"},{"startTime":1527.796,"endTime":1531.918,"body":"think of it as work. So I'm really trying to bring back in that playfulness"},{"startTime":1532.739,"endTime":1536.081,"body":"that I had once upon a time. And it's harder now. It's harder now,"},{"startTime":1540.043,"endTime":1543.306,"body":"You've touched on another theme and it's good that you're able to notice it"},{"startTime":1543.386,"endTime":1547.169,"body":"and address it by doing something different about it. But that"},{"startTime":1547.249,"endTime":1550.392,"body":"theme of when you turn your creative thing into a"},{"startTime":1550.472,"endTime":1553.995,"body":"thing that makes you money, it makes it a different animal."},{"startTime":1556.635,"endTime":1560.278,"body":"That's fabulous. Thank you so much, Mary. Tell us how people"},{"startTime":1560.318,"endTime":1563.761,"body":"can connect with you. Remind us of the names"},{"startTime":1565.783,"endTime":1569.086,"body":"Yeah, so my novels are When You Read This is"},{"startTime":1569.146,"endTime":1572.509,"body":"the first one, Privilege is the second one, and Palm Beach"},{"startTime":1572.629,"endTime":1575.851,"body":"is the third. And if they want to check out"},{"startTime":1575.891,"endTime":1579.432,"body":"the program I run, it's thebookincubator.com. And"},{"startTime":1580.012,"endTime":1583.113,"body":"I also have a podcast. I don't interview guests, but it's"},{"startTime":1583.133,"endTime":1586.254,"body":"just me talking, sharing some writing tips and strategies. And"},{"startTime":1586.294,"endTime":1589.496,"body":"it's called The First Draft Club. So they can go check that out if they want"},{"startTime":1592.397,"endTime":1598.299,"body":"Brilliant. Good for podcasting. Yay. Love"},{"startTime":1598.379,"endTime":1601.64,"body":"it. Thanks so much, Mary. I've had a lovely chat. Me too. Thank"},{"startTime":1601.68,"endTime":1604.971,"body":"you, Claire. Thanks so much for listening to"},{"startTime":1605.011,"endTime":1608.192,"body":"Creativity Found. I hope you enjoyed this episode and"},{"startTime":1608.292,"endTime":1611.853,"body":"gained some value from it. If you did, perhaps you'd like to contribute"},{"startTime":1611.873,"endTime":1615.235,"body":"a small monetary sign of appreciation, either by"},{"startTime":1615.315,"endTime":1618.596,"body":"becoming a regular supporter from as little as $3 per"},{"startTime":1618.636,"endTime":1621.817,"body":"month using the link in the show notes, or if you"},{"startTime":1621.857,"endTime":1625.239,"body":"are listening on a value-for-value enabled app such"},{"startTime":1625.279,"endTime":1628.701,"body":"as Fountain, Truefans or Podverse, feel free to"},{"startTime":1628.741,"endTime":1632.443,"body":"send a few sats my way. I also occasionally promote"},{"startTime":1632.483,"endTime":1635.605,"body":"products that I personally use, so please use"},{"startTime":1635.645,"endTime":1639.067,"body":"the affiliate link where relevant if you are buying from those fine"},{"startTime":1639.147,"endTime":1642.209,"body":"companies. Thanks so much, I really appreciate it."}]}