Tyler Schwanke: planning the perfect heist

Initially skeptical about pursuing a career in film, Tyler Schwanke's younger, practical self chose to take a journalism course at college. However, his true calling in film and storytelling beckoned, and he tried out a number of programs, before completing his mixed degree.

After college, back in his high-school bedroom at his parents' home, Tyler needed to earn some money, and took a security job, where in his mind he began planning a fantasy of how an aspiring filmmaker might make some money – through nefarious means – to fund his passion.

Moving into a recruitment role, Tyler's employer offered funding for further education, and since he had begun dabbling in writing, Tyler took the opportunity to learn more about the craft.

Tyler's first published novel, Breaking In – an evolution of his earlier heist fantasy – was not the first he wrote, and in this chat we explore the challenges and triumphs of Tyler's creative process, as he reveals the value he gleans from feedback and self-critique.

Tyler’s personal anecdotes about balancing his writing with a full-time job and the support of his wife paint a vivid picture of the grit and perseverance required to succeed in the creative arts, while his insights into the publishing process, including the arduous journey of querying agents and working with editors, offer valuable lessons for aspiring writers. 

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Researched, edited and produced by Claire Waite Brown
Music: Day Trips by Ketsa Undercover / Ketsa Creative Commons License Free Music Archive - Ketsa - Day Trips
Artworks: Emily Portnoi emilyportnoi.co.uk
Photo: Ella Pallet

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Chapters

• 7:40 Early Creative Experiences and Film Education
• 17:38 Balancing Writing and Life
• 23:05 The Publication Journey
• 29:32 Creativity and Authenticity
• 31:53 How to Support the Creativity Found Podcast

Transcript

0:45

Ultimately, I didn't choose a school that had a film department, a film program, because I thought, well, it would be a really fun way to spend college, but I'm not going to work in movies. I was a very practical 11th grader. Apparently, I fell in love with it. I was not good at it at all. When I first got a camera in my hand, I had no idea where to point it. My frames were off. My story was inconsistent. But I got better. I don't need to get up at 5 anymore. I get up about like 6:30, have breakfast with my wife, and then I write for about an hour to 90 minutes and then close my laptop, open my work laptop, and you know, I'm at work now. Be critical of yourself. Look at something and go, why isn't this working? And then figure it out from there. Hi, I'm Claire. For this podcast, I chat with people who have found or refound their creativity as adults. We'll explore their childhood experiences of the arts, discuss how they came to the artistic practices they now love, and consider the barriers they may have experienced between the two. We'll also explore what it is that people value and gain from their newfound artistic pursuits and how their creative lives enrich their practical, necessary, everyday lives. This time, I'm chatting with Tyler Schwanke. Hi, Tyler, how are you? I'm good. How are you, Claire? I'm very well, thank you. Start by telling me, please, about your current creative pursuits. Absolutely. So right now, I am a novelist. I had my first novel come out, 2023. It's called breaking In. It is a what I call a coming of age comic caper about a young film student who is pursuing her dream goals. She's from Fargo, North Dakota, which if you've never been there. Right now it's February, so it's completely ice. It's like Planet Hoth from Star Wars. It's just freezing. And so she goes to New York to go to this film camp. She's 17. She's going into her senior year of high school. She's got this script that she has spent a couple of years writing. It's an homage to her dad who was killed in a. In a bank heist. And so she goes there to be part of this competition that the camp has and to also work with kind of her idol, this director, Ricky o' ner, and at the end of the film camp, the camp is actually closed down. The academy's closed down. We find out that Ricky has been laundering money from the students from his school. And so they shut down the school. Millie sent home brokenhearted. Six, seven months later, she's back in Fargo. She's in the movie theater, and she is watching the coming attractions and sees that a trailer for the next Ricky Onair movie. And it's her script. He's stolen it. And because of the way that the camp set up, she basically has no rights anymore. She's given him a script. So she takes her small but mighty film crew, turns her film crew into a heist crew, and they make a plan to steal the movie. Three days before the premiere, I get a lot of emails from folks, like, in kind of like, rural parts of the Midwest that have read this and, you know, said, I really feel seen. Like, this is me. This is what I've been trying to do. And that's really cool because this is me. Like, I'm milling in some ways. You know, I'm a Midwest boy. Apple pie here. No, but, you know, I don't have any Hollywood connections or anything like that, so it's kind of my attempt as well, is kind of to get my foot in the door with. With novels, but also just. Just my love of movies. Yeah, it's sold as a young adult novel, and it certainly is in some respects, but it's more of a crossover book for me. I get more letters, excuse me, emails, you know, from. From adults than I do teenagers. I think just, you know, everybody kind of relates to it because there's things that you can find yourself in it. So that's been really cool for me. But now I'm making the transition, trying to become like an adult novelist, which always sounds weird when you say adult novelist. It sounds like you're like a writing, like, erotic thrillers, you know, and. And I'm not, but, you know, just more for, like, an adult audience. I've got two projects right now that I'm kind of getting out into the world, and I think I'm gonna take a step back from the novel for a little bit, and I think I'm gonna try writing a script. I haven't written a script in, like, a decade, and it sounds really fun to do. So I think kind of, just while the novel stuff is figuring itself out, I'm gonna. I'm gonna try to write a movie or two and see how that goes. Brilliant. Yeah. Wow, that sounds super exciting. I think I was gonna mention the autobiographical element of the. Hopefully it didn't go quite that far in your own experience. I did. I don't. I don't have the Guts to do that. So. So part of the book, and this isn't really giving anything away, but Millie's in to taking her highest knowledge. Like she needs something more than that, right? That's not going to be enough. And she knows someone that works for a security company. And that came from my first job out of college. Graduated film school, sent my thesis films all over the country, got into, you know, some festivals, and it was trying to find production work, but I was living at home back in my high school bedroom and was kind of like, I need money, you know, So I got a day job, which actually was more of a night job. It was a second shift forward and midnight working for a security company. So that's kind of where the idea came from of like, originally this book was just like kind of a down in his luck filmmaker, really trying to make a break for it and thought, I have this job, I have access to codes. You know, maybe I could. I could pull off a heist of my own, use that money to make my own film. So the original kind of concept and I never got further than just kind of writing this, this down. You know, when I was, when I was working for the security company, I jot down notes on a piece of paper and kind of collect that. But the idea was like, oh, maybe I could like rob a Costco and then use that money. And then I was like, well, how would you rob a car? Like you break into a Costco, what do you do after that? Like, where, like, Costco's don't have safes. I don't think, like they probably, you know, deposit their money at the end. So it just. That was kind of like this kind of comical idea of like they plan all this and then they really have no idea what they're doing. And then it's really just kind of an escape at that point. Like, can they get out of the Costco before the cops get them? So number one, I was never going to try that, but I thought it was fun as far as kind of a story. And then it kind of just grew from there, where I thought, that's not very sympathetic. You're not really going to rally around a dollar. And as like filmmaker that thinks stealing is the answer, right? So that's kind of where the idea of the script being stolen kind of came into play. She can still be the good guy because the other person is the bad guy, right? You can be on her side. That's kind of the golden rule, right? Like, your protagonist doesn't have to be perfect can have defaults, but somebody else has got to be worse, right? Yeah. Before we get onto actually going to film school, when you were much younger, did you have positive creative experiences as a child at home or at school? Yeah, absolutely. My parents read to me at a very early age. I loved reading. I would read my Goosebump books and then kind of run out of, you know, I'd go through them all in like, in two days. So I would start reading my parents books, whatever they had, you know. So I'd read like Michael Crichton's Jurassic park and the Client by John Grissom when I was like in second grade. And then I started coming up with just kind of my own stories. And my. My mom was the like, classroom mob, right? That she would come in the helper and she would come in, like, help with projects and that kind of stuff. And one of projects, we did this really cool thing where we got to write these. These stories. And then my mom would go and type up everybody's like, 10 page story. And then kind of laminated. It was. It was this kind of. It was like a hard cover, front and back with like the pages inside. And then it was like, I don't know, glued inside or something like that. And then, you know, we would get it back and then we would draw on it. We would like, draw the covers and we draw pictures in it. So I have like. I made up my own version of Goosebumps because I was huge into those. That's how my mom and dad got me to behave, was if I'm good, you know, the next month I get the next Goosebumps book, because they came out every month. Yeah, so. So I wrote my own Goosebumps books and it was called Chills. And it was only one book. And I read it a couple years ago. I found it when I was going through old stuff and it's terrible. And there's a. And also, like, Goosebumps is about, like, mysteries and like, kind of supernatural stuff. And this is about a teacher that I don't know. There was a lot of gun violence and I was like, this is a lot for a first grader. Like, oh my goodness. So, yeah, I mean, it was just. It was a lot of fun. And I got to write a couple things like that. It kind of came and went. I didn't like, you know, totally grow up writing stories, but I always wanted to write in some capacity. I remember when I saw Harriet the Spy, I probably was like, in sixth grade, maybe for like two weeks, I spied at all my neighbors, and I jot everything down in a notebook. But then I gave it up because it was super boring. You know, like, I'd be rolling around the neighborhood and, like, sitting behind, you know, air conditioners, watching people, like, mow their lawn or sip lemonade. And it was like, this is. Yeah, this isn't really. This isn't really that exciting. I don't think I'm going to be a spy. It was like the jotting down, right? The fun stuff. And then. And then just even like in junior high, I wrote. I took a notebook and was writing a movie script or what I thought a movie script should look like. I didn't know about, like, slug lines and action and all that kind of stuff, but it was called Premiere, and it took place at a. At a Hollywood premiere, which is fitting because the third act of Breaking in takes place at a Hollywood premiere. But it was like, the characters didn't actually have character names. They were Will Smith, Jennifer Love Hewitt, I think, like DiCaprio, and then me. I was in there. And, yeah, Jennifer Lefebvre was definitely my love interest. So, you know, this is just an eighth grader hoping, you know, dreams come to fruition. So. But yeah, and, you know, just definitely, again, story, whether or not it's in a film or TV or the novel form, you know, something that I've just always loved, always had a passion for and, you know, kind of tried stuff on my own here and there as I grew up. Yeah. So then tell me about higher education. When I went to college, I toured a lot of places that had film departments. And I remember thinking, like, ultimately I didn't choose a school that had a film department, a film program, because I thought, well, it'd be a really fun way to spend college. But I'm not going to work in movies. I was a very practical 11th grader, apparently. So I picked a school that had a good journalism program. I thought it'd be cool to be, like, a music critic, Right. So, you know, the dream job at the time was like, to write for Rolling Stone. I did one semester, like, I didn't pick a major. I just did, like, a couple classes. And then I decided that, well, you have to, like, write for, like, small papers for not a lot of money, and you have no work life balance, and there's no guarantee. And there was just so much stuff that it said. I don't. I don't know about that. So I just kind of like, you know, went to school for a couple years, just kind of Figuring stuff out. And then filmmaking was not at the school I was at, but was at the school across the river, Minnesota State University. At the time when I went there, it was just, it was straight film. And we actually like shot like on like Super 8 and we would cut and splice and all this stuff that now I don't think they do anymore, right, because there's, there's very few labs that can process the film. But I just thought, you know, I thought, well, I'll get my genitals done. And I picked some classes that kind of filled in some of the liberal arts requirements, right. And just thought this would be interesting. I can just kind of learn more about something that I've always loved. And I fell in love with it. I was not good at it at all. I was very. When I first got a camera in my hand, I had no idea where to point it. My frames were off. My story was inconsistent. But I got better, right? And I actually went to. I took a year off. Me and one of my best friends from high school, we went to New York for a year. So I went from Fargo, North Dakota to New York, which is quite a culture shock, right? So I went to this one year film program and really just learned so much in such a short amount of time. But all the technical aspects of it. But I definitely fell in love more with like learning about script writing and story beats and that kind of stuff. So when that finished up, I went back to Moorhead to finish my, my degree. You know, I thought that was important, but also took a English creative writing emphasis as well. So I was, I was a double major, film production and English creative writing. So I learned so much about story through the English creative writing program. You know, that helped, helped me when it came to script writing and also storytelling and just saying, you know, like, where do I need to put the camera to convey the story to the audience? And that's really where I learned storytelling and really influenced my novel writing. So I think everybody kind of comes at their writing a book from, from different avenues. For me, I like to outline and I overwrite by quite a lot because I want every idea to be on the page for that first draft. And then that way I can read the whole thing and really see what the, what the story is about, right? And then edits and cuts and stuff from there. It's the same thing you do in film production, right? You shoot as much stuff as possible. You watch the footage and then you say, where's my story? What's working? What's not working, and then put it together from there. So that's really where all of this that came from. And then when I graduated again, you know, like I mentioned earlier, I went to the job working for the security company and that was through a staffing company. So gradually I ended up working for the staffing company as a recruiter. I did that for like a year. And then I transitioned over to recruitment for a healthcare company. I've been doing that in one form or another for over a decade now. But the healthcare company that I worked for had tuition assistance. They would pay$2,500 a year and that was enough for me to take one class at Hamlin for my mfa. And I didn't really care too much about like completing the mfa. It was just more of a. I'd started writing a novel before any kind of classes and I just sat down, said, I'm going to write a novel. And when it was done, it was okay. But I could tell there's a lot of things that I just needed help on and I wanted feedback right from people that it's not my, my mom or my wife, you know, somebody that's going to be like, dude, this part sucks. You know, this, this is slowing you down. So I wanted to have that kind of workshop feel. So I, I went in for my MFA and then it took me about 10 years and I sold Breaking in before I completed my mfa. And it wasn't something that I was working on for the school. So I would take like one class one semester and then the next semester I would work on my own writing. It was a really good balance and, you know, helped me really kind of advance my novel writing and take kind of what I knew from filmmaking and transition into the novel. I was really lucky that this company that, you know, was willing to pay for that. And then, and then Covid hit and I split from there. So I didn't even. I just like took the degree and left. Going back then before COVID and talking about balance, as you've mentioned, how are you balancing and fitting it in? Because you've mentioned obviously the full time job, the classes, the actual writing, your wife, you know, how is this all fitting together for you in your everyday life? Absolutely. So my wife is incredibly supportive. She knows how important this is to me, how, how much I've always wanted to, to pursue this and especially at the beginning where I didn't know what that would look like. You know, I had heard that it's good to have a routine, it's good to Kind of fall into a pattern. So I thought, okay. And at first it was just weekends. I would write, I'd be like, Saturday, I'm not doing anything else. And I would Write for like 10 hours. And it was, it was fun. But after a while that kind of takes its toll, right? You know, your body's all stiff, I'm sitting at a desk all day. And then kind of balancing with school and everything, I figured out a way to take those 10 hours, break it up over the course of a week. So I'm not doing all of this. And also the story is staying fresh because that's a big thing too, right? Is, is you write Saturday, maybe a little bit Sunday. I would read the stuff over the week because I wanted to at least be productive. I wanted to be doing something. But I was editing as I was going over the week just so I could do something. And I don't do that anymore because I think it's important to just let the first draft be the first draft and then read the whole thing and find out where your story is. Right. So I was editing stuff and then I'd be like, oh, I need to go back, fix this. Because I made this change and it's like, that's all second draft stuff. Don't worry about going back because you'll never get the first draft done if you do that. So just write it as it is. So I started getting up like five in the morning and I would write for about 90 minutes before going to work. So an hour to 90 minutes and then, you know, go shower and get dressed and go into work. Eventually I was, I was able to like, I work from home now, so I don't need to worry too. I don't need to get up at 5 anymore. I get up about

like 6: 19:42

30, have breakfast with my wife and then I write for about an hour to 90 minutes and then close my laptop, open my work laptop and you know, I'm at work now. So it's been, it's been really great. And then that way again, the story's fresh. I'm writing every day. I'm being consistent and I'm getting words on the page. Really, you just have to prioritize. I have met so many great writers that are way stronger than I feel I am, that have some really good short stories and parts of a novel, but I think it's hard for them to find the rhythm right. And they also have full time jobs and it really has to be like your second job and you can't call in sick. Right. You know, because if you do, the only thing that's going to happen is you're not going to finish your book, you're not going to finish your short story or whatever it is that you're working on. So I've just always treated it like that as my, as my second job. Again, I can't sell anything if I don't finish it. So that's always been kind of the driving force for me is, is making time, prioritizing. Sometimes you just say, I can't do that this weekend because I have this going on, or I can't do it until this time because in the mornings I'm writing, you know, and that's, that's consistent. And unless I'm like, out of the country, I got a vacation or something like that, you know, I'm writing every day. Wow. And talking of selling, how was that working out in your head as you were writing? So was it like, I've sold the plot, so I've got to write it, or was it, I'm writing it when I'm finished it and I'm happy with it, I'll try and sell it, or was it going to be a self publishing? What was your thought process? Yeah, I've never been really interested in self publishing. Not that I'm against it by any means. I'm. I'm not. It just wasn't something that I think motivated me. And what I mean by that is, again, this is just me, right, deciding that I want to write a book and I want it to be in bookstores. I didn't even think about an audiobook. And it's an audiobook now. And it's so cool because it's like a radio play. It was a component that I never considered, has been one of the really great surprises about this. But for me, it was, I want to find an agent because I know that helps get it published, right? If I knew a trick or I didn't need an agent and I could go right to the publisher, I would, I would have done that. But I didn't. So I thought, okay, this is going to be the first step. So, no, I never thought about anything other than finish the completed book, have friends, family, read it, give feedback, you know, workshop it until it's just exactly what I want and then go out and do the querying. And I should say that, you know, Breaking in was my third novel I finished. I wrote two other books prior to that, so one before I started my MFA program and then one kind of towards the beginning, I queried, and I probably sent over to a hundred agents for each one and got some read throughs, but I never, you know, got an offer. And I can tell a lot of why, because, you know, certain things about my characters, the arcs, the plots, too much at some time, you know, over sharing details, getting bogged down, not enough, maybe when it counts. So it was a learning tool for me. And, you know, so some people say, like, have you ever tried to go get those published, those. Those other novels published? And absolutely not. I don't want them. I don't want them out there. And people be like, this is, you know, this is the kind of writer he is. Because I've grown so much from that. But I'm grateful that I wrote those. Like, that's important to me. That was just as important as my MFA program. You learn so much by doing. You learned what doesn't work pretty quickly, right? You can see it, you can read it, and it kind of stands out. So, you know, make sure to be open, be critical of yourself. Look at something and go, why isn't this working? And then figure it out from there. So once I got breaking into a point where I felt, okay, great, I'm gonna try to get an agent, I had a friend of mine, he's another writer, Robert Kirbeck. He writes mainly nonfiction. He's written a lot about, actually the wildfires that are happening right now in la. He had a book come out called Malibu Burning a couple years ago, which is about the fires in Malibu. He told me about this company that's now out of business, unfortunately, called Writers Relief. And basically you would fill out a form and say, you know, this is what my book's about. This is where it takes place. This is the genre, all that kind of stuff. And then they sent you a list of like 30 agents that would be interested in your type of book. So I used that, and I think within the first 15 queries, I got an offer. Wow. Yeah. The other two books a year each maybe more. For the second one, I think I spent a lot of time, right. Over a hundred agents, a lot of reads, nothing. This one, within two weeks, I haven't, you know, so I was like, wow, okay, cool. You know, and I think again, that's just because I learned so much. I learned what didn't work and put it into what does. So I signed with my agents, and then we started sending out a little bit. And then Covid hit. He told me, look, everything's kind of just shut down at this point. And people aren't reading. I'm not hearing things. So we're just going to kind of pause and wait. So we really did kind of wait for about a year before he started sending it back out again. And then we met up with Boxstone Publishing. They loved the book and then we signed with them. And then I learned how long publishing takes. So I got an offer. Oh my gosh. I think it was like November 2021 and then May of 2023. So that's like 18 months later. Right. The book came out. But it was, you know, it was really educational from just the publishing, you know, aspect of working with an editor for the first time. I had never worked with an editor outside of a couple literary magazines and journals that maybe they said, you know, they would send over a revised vision of my story and say, these are some suggestions, but if you don't like them, whatever. And I'd be like, okay. And this is like, no, I think you need to do this. And this is why. And we need you to write this, you know, and, and, you know, so we actually beefed up the book a little bit. It was 84,000 when we sold it and it was published at 93,000. And that was, that was really educational for me. And, you know, stuff that I had took into my writing and have applied it to the projects I'm working on now. I got to learn about COVID design. I actually got cover approval, which I hear never happened. So that was, that was really cool. Yeah. You know, and then just, just having it out there, doing some book signings, talking on podcasts, you know, it's been, it's been a lot of fun. How long would you estimate, how long was the whole kind of writing process, including the two novels that you don't want people to see? How long were you honing your craft, do you think, to get to this point? Yeah, I've been writing fiction in the novel form since 2011. Yeah. So 14 years. Yeah. Yeah. So. And it took me eight years, three books to get an agent. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. And from a, an overall well being, lifestyle point of view, I mean, you've told us about the logistics of your lifestyle and when you write or when you work and when you speak with your wife. But does having this, does having this writing practice, do you think it complements other aspects of your life? I think so, because it scratches an itch that I have. Right. So in my day job, it's not super creative. Right. I'm a recruiter. I, I go out and find People to work for a healthcare company. But I think it's all about work, life, balance. And so me starting off my day doing what I absolutely love and then getting the opportunity to still have a full time job, I do love that aspect as well. But it's just, it's okay when I'm, when I'm having it, my day job, it's not me going, oh, I wish I was doing this, I wish I was doing that. It's like, you already did that today. You got to do that aspect. You know, it also helps just kind of like thinking outside of the box, you know, when it comes to kind of different things in a different perspective. A lot of my coworkers and people that I work with come from a business administration background or they come from a human resources background, you know, and I'm like, well, I did film production and if you want to talk Beowulf, I can eek, eek it out. You know, I can tell, I can tell you what my teacher wanted me to take from it. But so I think, yeah, I mean, it's really just kind of, you know, it's opened up other avenues where, you know, I never really thought I'd be like on podcast for this and I've loved that part of it. You know, I've done about 16 of them and I didn't realize how much I love talking about the creative process. And when I get emails. This last one I got was from a gentleman that said his son is an actor looking to go into film school, I think this coming fall. And he had heard me on a podcast and that's how he found the book. And so I just thought that was super cool and nothing I never really put into play. Right. You know, never really gave serious thought about. So it's been fun. Kind of different aspects of that. And then I got to be on a morning show. It was a local morning show for North Dakota Today shot in Fargo. So that was fun. You know, I was on TV and I didn't totally embarrass myself. So, you know, big win there. I've never watched it. That's the thing. I've also learned I've never listened to any of my podcasts and I've never watched myself on tv. So yeah, I just, I have no interest. I hope it goes well. I hope this feel, this feels good. But I'm not going to go back and. Because I think I would just nitpick and I think it would be easy to get like over involved in that aspect of it. Worrying Too much. I think the biggest thing for me is I just, I hope people realize that I'm just trying to be authentic. I'm telling you how much work it is not. So you're like, oh, okay, we get it, dude. You know? Yeah, yeah, you. You did it. No, I'm saying you could do it too. It just takes a really long time and not for everybody. Some people know somebody or they're just like the world's greatest writer and takes one draft. Awesome. Cool. That didn't work for me. That never happened for me. And this is what I've done. And so it's just, it's fun to kind of share that with other people and in different aspects. Like right now, for me, I draw a lot of inspiration from, from writers, but also like actors, musicians, people that really kind of struggle and take a lot of, a lot of time. You know, like Chapel Rowan. Right. Like a couple of years ago she was doing Pink Pony Club at like, barbecues. Yeah. You know, or like community events. And now she's on the Grammys, you know, like, dude, cool. Good on you. Well, how did that work for her? She didn't stop. She continues. She worked on it. She perfected it. And I think that's, I think that's really, really important to, to know that if this isn't going to be your full time job at the beginning, you still have to treat it like, like a second full time job and really. Commit yourself is something that this podcast we talk a lot about. And a lot of my guests a have a job and then do their other creative thing that they want to be doing alongside that. And again, we have talked a lot about the amount of time we're being realistic here. You don't just do a thing and then all of a sudden it's a wonderful thing that everybody knows about and it's really useful for everyone that's listening to know, oh, that person has gone through what I'm going through now. I'm not the only one that is slogging through this. So that's the reality and the authenticity is very, very important. And if you were to listen back to this podcast, I'm sure you wouldn't be nitpicking any of it. We'll see. I don't know about that, but. Yeah, but I don't mind if you don't listen. I mean, I'd be nitpicking about me. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I'll edit beautifully. You'd be perfect. How can people connect with you, Tyler? Yeah, So I have a website that has links to all my social really probably Instagram and my Facebook page is going to be the bigger ones. So that's where when this comes out I will put it on my socials, encourage people to come find me. And then my website also has links to where you can order the book and then also just learn about, you know, different opportunities and stuff that I have coming out. And what was the website called? Just Tyler Schwanke.com lovely. Thank you so much Tyler. It's been really lovely to speak with you. You too, Claire. I appreciate the time. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, perhaps you'd like to financially contribute to future episodes at buymeacoffee.com/creativityfound. There's a link in the Show Notes. If you are listening on a value for value enabled app such as Fountain TrueFans or Podcast Guru, feel free to send a few sats my way. And if you have no idea of what I'm talking about, you can find out more by listening to my sister podcast called Podcasting 2.0 in Practice.