From Banking to Broadway with Norman Calvo

A conservative New York mortgage banker turns his hand to performing cabaret solos and tap-dancing in Manhattan's Times Square. 

In this episode, Norman Calvo shares how a devastating childhood choir audition silenced his voice for decades, and how an unexpected encounter with an opera singer client in his 60s allowed him to find his voice once more.

We explore the power of starting from scratch as an adult, the vulnerability of freezing during your first public solo, and how embracing a creative outlet can completely redefine your social life and personal identity. 

Norman also offers advice for anyone afraid of putting themselves out there, emphasizing that when it comes to finding joy in retirement, you truly have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

The Choir Audition Scar: Norman shares the devastating childhood experience of being rejected from his seventh-grade choir, which sidelined his artistic confidence for decades.

The Hand-Written Mortgage Magic: How a face-to-face meeting with opera singer clients in his 60s sparked a late-in-life journey into singing lessons at the Brooklyn Academy of Music.

Falling on Your Face to Learn: Norman recounts freezing on stage during his first-ever solo and explains why making mistakes is the ultimate way to grow as an adult.

Tuxedos, Top Hats, and Tap Dancing: From a conservative Wall Street uniform to performing 'Putting on the Ritz' with a cane, Norman describes the pure fun of adding physical performance and tap lessons to his creative toolkit.

The Holistic Banker: How performing cabaret completely transformed Norman's social life, broadened his conversations, and led to a heartwarming joint talent show with his granddaughter.

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Transcript

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Norman Calvo: 1:01

When you're in the seventh grade, you get lined up in front of the choir director and sing this note, sing this note. And of course, I couldn't sing it at all, but my friends could. And I was completely devastated. Fascinating to take myself out of the mortgage world, out of the business world, and finally connect with something creative. That was the most important part of the whole process for me. I was just mesmerized, absolutely mesmerized by it all. It's like creativity magnified, exponential creativity. It's like it's not just one song or three songs. It's 15 songs with all of the story behind the songs.

Sam Sethi: 1:47

Hi, I'm Claire. For this podcast, I chat with people who have found or refound their creativity as adults, explore their childhood experiences of the arts, discuss how they came to the artistic practices they now love, and consider the barriers they may have experienced between the two. We'll also explore what it is that people value and gain from their newfound artistic pursuits. This time, I'm chatting with Norman Calvo. Hello, Norman, how are you?

Norman Calvo: 2:19

Good morning, Claire. I'm really well. How about yourself?

Sam Sethi: 2:22

Yeah, very good, thank you. Start by telling me what your current creative outlet is, please.

Norman Calvo: 2:29

Well, the main one, of course, is my cabaret show and my singing. I'm part of a cabaret troupe here in Manhattan in Times Square Broadway, and I also am producing my second full length one man show. So it's really singing and doing cabaret shows.

Sam Sethi: 2:47

Brilliant. I'm not jealous at all. Love it. When you were younger, was creativity, whether performing or in other formats, was that something that was encouraged in you at home or at school?

Norman Calvo: 3:01

Really not? No, no. I grew up in a relatively poor family and did okay at school, I guess, at the beginning, but we didn't have much in the way of creative outlets because, you know, people around us that were taking music lessons or piano lessons or whatever, and that just wasn't an opportunity for me whatsoever. It just wasn't. So as far as theater was concerned, I actually, for many, many years, I said, you know, I've got to find a way to get out of here, to get out of this situation. Not necessarily as a kid, do you know much about economics or things like that? But I knew that my only claim to fame was to excel really well academically so that I could find somewhere to go to school and go to a good school and things like that. So I did extremely well later on, junior high and high school, in academics, and that was my way to get out of my current situation. So it was just academics, primarily not even sports. I wasn't good at sports.

Sam Sethi: 4:01

You did tell me previously, however, that there was some music around you, even if it wasn't for you to do for yourself.

Norman Calvo: 4:09

Yes. Here's what I absolutely loved. Across the street there was the family. The mother was a. She used to play classical piano music. They had a grand piano in their living room. My brother and I would always play in their house. And. And so I love listening to the music. Cause it just sounded amazing. Throughout the house, there was piano music. My friend's brother, I mean, there were three kids in the family, but his brother also playing piano. He ultimately became a conductor and one of the orchestras here in the States. And the friend that I. That I played with mostly actually became the famous Kenny G. So famous saxophonist, actually. It's funny, he was. Before he became famous, he was part of the Ringland Bailey Brothers circus act. They performed all over the United States. And so that's what he used to do before he became famous. But I always enjoyed listening to their piano music all the time. And when Kenny was playing saxophone at the high school band and things like that, it was just a pleasure listening to it all. I never could do it myself, but it was a pleasure.

Sam Sethi: 5:19

And if there weren't opportunities to play an instrument for yourself. But often in school there were opportunities to sing. Did you have that option?

Norman Calvo: 5:27

That was the other problem, Claire. You know, when you're in the seventh grade, you. You get lined up in front of the choir director so that the choir director can choose who's going to ultimately be part of the choir. And so we had everybody lined up and sing this note. Sing this note. And of course, I couldn't sing it at all, but my friends could. And I was completely devastated because I knew at that time that I wanted to have some sort of fun or creative outlet or something. I didn't call it creative outlet when you were 12, 13 years old. But I was devastated because my friends did, and they had so much fun in choir. And, you know, later on, in later years, 8th grade, 9th grade, 10th grade, when I would try to sing, people would make fun of me. And ultimately I said, okay. It was discarded. All creative adventure was discarded for years upon years upon years upon years.

Sam Sethi: 6:24

What a horrible experience. Take your confidence away from you. Just like that, as a little person.

Norman Calvo: 6:30

Devastating. Absolutely.

Sam Sethi: 6:33

Okay, so you fought back in your academics and after school. So what happened after school?

Norman Calvo: 6:39

Well, after school, it was interesting at that time. And we're talking about this 1970s. It wasn't like nowadays where you have to get a job real quickly or go to graduate school or become a doctor. Everybody was trying to find themselves. I left the United States for five years and traveled all around Europe. I taught English in Spain. I worked on a farm in Switzerland for a long time. Morocco, Italy, everywhere. There was a book at that time called Europe on $10 a day. And believe it or not, when youth hostels only cost $1 a night, I was able to live on $10 a day. It was the greatest thing in the world.

Sam Sethi: 7:19

So when you came back to the States then, and you had to be a grownup, I believe I came back.

Norman Calvo: 7:26

I was 27 years old. I never had a formal job. I mean, I had odd jobs here and there. So a friend of mine was a recruiting director and education director at a local real estate company, and he said, you know, why don't you try becoming a realtor? So I said, okay, well, that's great. I'll take my hand at it. And I became really, really good. But I'm from Seattle, and at that time, there wasn't really any Microsoft or any ebay or Amazon or things like that. So the biggest industry there was really Boeing making the airplanes. And there was a huge, huge recession in 1982 where the economy there just came to a halt. I mean, there was just nothing left, and people were not buying houses. So ultimately, the company that I worked for failed because there weren't any sales. And son added in the local newspaper to become a loan officer at a bank, at a mortgage company. And I said, okay, let me give it a try. They were offering me fifteen hundred dollars a month for three months and then total commission afterwards. I said, geez, I need that $1,500. Whether it's three months or not, I need that money. So I did that. And I quickly, quickly became a really, really good loan officer and very, very successful at it. I built a career. It was only maybe three weeks ago that I finally retired from that career. 44 years as a loan officer. I had built my own company. I sold my company to a bank here in New York and loved every single minute of it. Really, every single minute of it. Fascinating career, that's for sure.

Sam Sethi: 9:06

Oh, brilliant. That's fabulous. So let's move on then. And coming back to singing. So a few years later, you're not completely being put off by yourself. Previous experiences. Tell me about coming back to singing and trying it again.

Norman Calvo: 9:22

Well, what happened? You know, it was funny. I was already in my 60s. I was about 63 years old, and I was very Successful in the mortgage world. But as it turned out, I had a couple of clients who were both opera singers here in New York City. And it was still at the time when mortgage applications were filled out by hand. You know, the customers would come in face to face, and we would ask them questions, and we would fill it out together. As I was filling it out, the wife told me, norman, wow, what a voice. Oh, God, you must be a phenomenal singer. I looked at her like she was from outer space. Really? I mean, okay, so I have a booming voice. Yes. Okay, that might be nice, but singing, she's gotta be nuts. So I said to her, I said, sarah, really, really? No, I can't sing a single note. I can't carry a tune or single sing on key. Well, as it turned out, you know, mortgage applications, they take about a couple of months. So I'm always talking to her. And ultimately she said to me, during that two months period, she said, norman, how would you like to take singing lessons? And I said, oh, well, that's interesting. Yes, I'll. I'll take singing lessons. Okay. For me, it was an opportunity. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't. Who knows? Who cares? But the Brooklyn Academy of Music was right down the street from my office. And so it was easy for me just to go there during lunchtime, take a lesson and see how it goes. And to see how it goes, it took me, like, months and months. Our first lessons were, sing this note. Like the seventh grade choir director. Sing this note. La la la la. Thank God. When she saw that I couldn't do that, she went towards a different way of teaching me. She said, okay, here's a note on the piano. Listen to this note, and then tell me if this note is higher or lower. Great. You know, if the notes were far apart, well, certainly I'd get it. But we kept laughing about this, because as soon as she got closer and closer, closer together on the notes, I was correct 50% of the time. And ultimately, for months and months, we would do that. And then she would add on, you know, repeat this note. Repeat this note. And it started working. It started working. I wasn't the best at it. I really wasn't very, very good. But it kind of got okay. And it was about a year, year and a half of just taking the lessons. That's it. And just by coincidence, one of my realtor friends, we had a Christmas party. My company sponsored a Christmas party. And we got to talking, and I didn't know he was a singer, and he didn't know I was taking singing lessons, but it came up in conversation and he said, well, why don't you join the Gotham Rock Choir Now? The word choir to me was like, oh my God, I'm not going to go through this again. I'm not gonna audition, no way. And he said, no, no, no, Norman, they need male voices. They need male voices. Go, go, go, go. So as it turns out, yeah, I made the inquiry and the guy came in and he didn't ask me even to sing or audition. He said, oh, you're taking singing lessons. Okay, all right, the next time that we're all going to meet is Tuesday night at 7 o' clock and come on, join us. So I joined the Gotham Rock Choir and I didn't know what I was doing, Claire. I wasn't embarrassed, but I was always singing off key. I know that that's how it all started. Ultimately, one thing led to the next.

Sam Sethi: 13:10

Yeah, did you find it? Because obviously you've been singing one on one with your singing teacher. So how did it feel when you're then with other people? It might be a positive thing because I know that, you know, singing with other people and doing creative activities with other people can have positive effects, but it could also be quite daunting when it's not just you and you're singing teacher. How did you find that?

Norman Calvo: 13:34

Well, as long as everybody around me was singing with loud voices, that was great, you know, but I did my best. It took me about two years to finally get up enough courage to do a solo. And I kept on taking singing lessons. So that was really, really wonderful. But it took about two years with all of our performances and there were four big, big performances every year. So I was singing nicely. It was just a lot of fun. I was the oldest person there. You know, everybody was in their 20s and 30s. For me it was social. Really interesting to talk to these young people and see where they're at, what they're doing. And really fascinating to take myself out of the mortgage world, out of the business world, and finally connect with something creative. That was the most important part of the whole process for me. But finally I got the courage to audition and now it was a real audition for a solo. And the song that I chose to audition for was Let It Be by the Beatles. And Sarah and I had gone over this, you know, when Mother Mary comes to me singing words of wisdom, Let it be a thousand times, a thousand times. And I got the part. I got the part. The first line in Let it be. Oh my God, I was so proud of myself. So wonderful and incredible. So the concert time came, and I was there in front of the whole choir. Now the choir is 100 people, and the audience was at least 150 people, maybe way more than that. And I froze. I just completely froze. But the music kept on going, and finally I had enough courage to start, and it came out totally wrong. I mean, so bad. So bad that the guy who sang the next line was off key. And finally the third person sang it. Okay, but here. Here's the interesting thing. After the performance, my wife was there, my kids were there, business associates and friends were there. And they came up to me and they told me how wonderful I was. Norman, that was so great. That was so great. That was so great. Well, I didn't look at the video for at least a year or two years afterwards, and it's like, oh, my God. What? I was wonderful. You sang beautifully, Norman. Claire. You know, it's like when you're teaching your kids how to ride a bike, they fall off all the time. But so great, Joey, so great. Oh, let's do it again. Let's do it again. And they're going to cry, and then blah, blah, blah. But you know what? That's the way to learn something. You got to make the mistakes. You got to, you know, fall on your face and really, really screw up. And ultimately, if you have enough courage to keep on going, well, that's just the way it is, you know? And as an adult, what do you have to lose? I wasn't even embarrassed. I didn't even know enough to be embarrassed because everybody was saying how great I sang.

Sam Sethi: 16:45

Yeah, that's choir. What you've spoken about at the beginning is cabaret and then a solo show. Why cabaret? How did that come along?

Norman Calvo: 16:54

It was actually. It wasn't unusual, but it was just fortuitous. A couple of the people in the choir, we became friendly and things like that. And they said, hey, Norman, why don't you take a look at this opportunity? So they had already joined a cabaret group. And I said, okay, what do I got to lose? I enjoyed singing so much, and I enjoyed going to the rehearsals and the practicing on my own and things like that. And they said, oh, it's a little bit different because there's only six people in each class. And you'll get the opportunity to sing alone and perform alone. And of course, it was scary. It was. But I said, okay, let me, you know, let me join. And there. You didn't have an audition. They just assumed that you knew how to sing. But I joined a cabaret group and we gave performances. Each of us got three songs. And at the beginning, it was the same thing. You know, the pianist was there, and there was a group of six people plus the cabaret director. And you had to choose your own song. The first song that I ever chose was what do youo get when youn Fall in Love by Burt Bachrach. I thought it was easy, simple, you know, it was not easy, was not simple, but it was fun. And the pianist worked with me over and over and over again to finally get that right note from the very first word. That was the key. Because if I got the right note on the first line or the first few words, I usually could continue properly. But it was hearing that first note and getting it right. So Sarah and I continued to work together. And ultimately she said, okay, let's start this way. Let's start this way. Let's start this way. And it worked. It really, really worked. Finally, I wasn't perfect, but I was getting better and better and better and better. And a couple of the people that were in the group had their own solo shows, and they said, oh, please come to see the show. And I was just mesmerized, absolutely mesmerized by it all. It's like creativity magnified, exponential creativity. It's like it's not just one song or three songs. It's 15 songs with all of the story behind the songs or behind their life or whatever theme they had. You know, one was doing a Frank Sinatra theme. So he was always talking about, you know, various shows that Frank Sinatra did in Las Vegas or in New York City or whatever, in London. And I found that just, wow, I gotta do that now. Of course, I was still an amateur, but nobody said no to me, and I said, okay, I'm going to try it. It took years to finally get that first show done. But it was the most exhilarating, fascinating, exciting time of my life. It was so much fun.

Sam Sethi: 19:56

Yeah, I understand that thing about singing the note, but I used to be in pantomime, and I would choose songs as well that I thought were easy. And then I'd be going, oh, this isn't easy at all. And there was one lady in our pantomime. It was just a Village affair. It was brilliant. And she had a really good ear, so she would do that. She would give me the note just before I start so I could start at the right place and have that confidence. So I completely understand that. The other thing about cabaret and solo show is that you're not standing still, you're moving around, you've got the talking in between, as you did briefly mention. And you've got to write that and rehearse that. So how did you find that other aspect of performing around simply singing? Did that come easily?

Norman Calvo: 20:44

Well, no, it did not. I mean, it didn't come easily. I remember one time, the very first time I had to kind of dance on stage and it was, it was really a dance. So I wanted to sing the song, you know, putting on the Ritz. And Fred Astaire has a phenomenal video online on YouTube. But the dance scene in that song, Putting on the Ritz was just, oh my God, how am I going to do this? How am I going to do this? Well, fortunately, the cabaret director did have a lot of Broadway experience and so she helped me with all the moves. And I had a tuxedo on with a top hat and a cane. And we took two months of specialized one on one training to get the moves down correctly. It was a much simplified version of the Fred Astaire video. But once again, Claire, you know, it was, it was exciting and fun. That was the key about being creative. If you enjoy it and you love doing it, it's just so much fun. And once again, I wasn't perfect answer at all, but it was just an amazing amount of fun. You know, I was a very conservative, very staid mortgage banker, extraordinarily conservative, you know, the Wall street type, you know, business suit and everything. And all of a sudden I putting on a show, well, it worked and the audience loved it. So yes, I love the performing. And as a matter of fact, for my first cap ratio, the suggestion was for me to do a little bit of tap dancing. I took tap dance lessons for a year and once again it was just so much fun.

Sam Sethi: 22:35

You had another feather in your bow with your tap dancing. I think like you're talking about the fun and it just all sounds so joyful. And I think people love doing it as well as watching it because it takes them to another place when you're performing. I certainly feel this. I take on another character and I can become another person. And I think when you're watching things as well, you are in that environment as well as that, that I can already, already hear the joyful side of it. What other benefits has building this into your everyday life brought to your everyday life, do you think?

Norman Calvo: 23:14

Multiple, multiple different benefits. I mean, everybody knew me as this mortgage banker, but then all of a sudden what happens? Because all my Friends and relatives came to my shows and my kids and the friends of my kids came to my shows. So all of a sudden I became this, I'm not going to say a celebrity, not at all. But what happened is that it opened up the field to multiple different conversations with people so that things became much more interesting in life. And what I mean by that is that when you just in business or you're doing banking or whatever, you're a mortgage banker, you talk about that. But now that there's theater or music or singing or cabaret in your life, other people are curious and interested and you start talking about things that you never would have talked about before. So conversations became much more interesting. The people that I meet and become friendly with now become much more interesting. The world opens up and it becomes so fascinating. Like, I taught English in Spain when I graduated from college during those five years of traveling. And I said to myself, you know, why don't I do that again? And so there's a company that you volunteered for a week at a time. They need English teachers in Spain to teach executives. They already know English, kind of, but they need to improve their consistency in speaking naturally English. So I did that for a week. And part of that was the English teachers had to put on a talent show. On last night, if I tell you, Claire, I got a standing ovation. And it was, it was kind of like, I'm a new person. That was one of the benefits of the whole music, the cabaret singing. I became a new person. I wasn't this one sided individual, that was just a banker. No, I was a singer. Oh my God. I'm the singer. What? How could that be? And I'm not a good singer. I mean, I'm good enough. Of course I put on the show, but I'm good enough and people love it and people respond to it. So it wasn't just the standing ovation, it was everybody else in my life all of a sudden started thinking of me as a more, I don't know, more holistic person, but a more interesting person. And people who never would have really talked to me before now all of a sudden have tons of things to talk about. So that was one of the biggest benefits of doing this and fascinating. And I did a talent show with my granddaughter and she's in my next cabaret show. You know, it's just a lovely, heartwarming thing to add music and creativity to somebody's life because it makes you a broader person, makes you a much more interesting person. That's how I. That's what I feel about it as well.

Sam Sethi: 26:17

Yeah, yeah. That's fantastic. And for other people that might want to become more interesting people, have you got any advice for anybody else who's thinking, I want to reignite a previous creative passion or start something creative for myself? Any words of wisdom? Norman?

Norman Calvo: 26:36

You know, the interesting thing is that you've got nothing to lose and everything to gain. Because if you're afraid of putting yourself out there, so to speak, well, it's not your job. You know, you're not going to become the next, you know, Ariana Grande or you're not going to become the next Frank Sinatra. You're not going to do that. But you're going to have fun. So why limit yourself to just your standard life when you can expand your horizons and become somebody who you might want to become? You have nothing to lose. You're not going to do this for money and you're only going to do it so that you can enjoy your life a lot more. That's really the best thing. You've got nothing to lose and just go for it. Because to prevent yourself from really, really having fun, you'll have just too many regrets as you get older. Just too many regrets. So it doesn't really pay.

Sam Sethi: 27:28

Perfect. Thank you so much, Norman. I've had such a super time. Tell me, how can people connect with you?

Norman Calvo: 27:35

Probably the best thing is to take a look at my substack. Normancavo.substack.com thank you so much, Norman.

Sam Sethi: 27:41

It's been absolutely fabulous.

Norman Calvo: 27:43

Wonderful. Claire, thanks so much for having me on your show. It was really fun.

Sam Sethi: 27:48

You're very welcome. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, perhaps you'd like to financially contribute to future episodes at buymeacoffee.com/creativityfound There's a link in the show notes. If you are listening on a value for value enabled app such as Fountain, TrueFans or Podcast Guru, feel free to send a few sats my way. And if you have no idea of what I'm talking about, you can find out more by listening to my sister podcast called Podcasting 2.0 in Practice,