Main Street Business

#594 Donald Miller on Why Your Brand Message Is Costing You Sales

• Mark J Kohler and Mat Sorensen

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Mat sat down with Donald Miller to break down how the StoryBrand framework and airplane model can transform small business growth. In this episode of the Main Street Business Podcast, we dive into marketing, sales, and clarity in messaging so entrepreneurs can scale with confidence.

SPEAKER_01:

Every human being wakes up identifying as a hero in a story. A hero is character that wants something and overcomes conflict to get it. So as it relates to your business, my question to you is what's the conflict that your customer is trying to overcome? They are the hero in the story. You never want to position yourself as the hero in the story. The reason is that's a weak character. That's your customer. Your customer is a weak character. Every customer out there has a problem and they're looking for somebody to help them. And so what you need to do is position yourself as the guide helping the hero win. And all of a sudden, people start paying attention to you. I always say if you want to grow your business, talk 75% about the pain your customer is in and 25% about your product. Your sales will go up.

SPEAKER_03:

Welcome everyone to the Main Street Business Podcast. This is Matt Sorensen, and I'm honored to be joined in studio by Donald Miller, best-selling author, teaches people how to consult and grow businesses, and has worked with probably thousands of business owners in growing small businesses. So it's a pleasure to have you in the studio here today.

SPEAKER_01:

Great to be here.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Well, we've got an audience of Main Street business owners. This is the Main Street Business Podcast, after all. A lot of small business owners, some big business owners, some people with a side hustle, some people trying to launch a business. And I know you've got a lot of books out there, but I wanted to start with your flight plan on how to grow a small business. I've listened to some of your podcasts already, and I've ordered your books. I should have had them here before you got here, but I but I've been listening to a lot of your stuff, and I was really captivated by how you talk about an aircraft and how people should be thinking about their small business.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I'm an accidental business guy. I mean, I started out as a memoirist and had a really successful career there, and then wrote a a business book about messaging and suddenly had a staff of 35 people and a thousand certified coaches and all this kind of stuff. So I found myself moving very quickly from sitting around in my underwear writing books to actually having to put on pants and go into an office, which is just very foreign to me. And I don't tend to do well if things get complicated or confusing. And so one of the things that that I wouldn't like to buy that's complicated Well, yeah, it's that that's the case too. But also I need very simple frameworks and processes in order to run my operation. And so created those in order to grow my business, and they worked very, very well. And then I would share them with friends. And basically, the realization that I had when I was trying to figure out without a business degree, trying to figure out how to run a small business and grow it, is that a business works like an airplane. As long as I kept that airplane model in my mind as I was making decisions, I made much, much better decisions. And my business doubled year after year for quite a long time. And I actually do credit with credit that growth. I don't credit the growth with the airplane model, though some of it, I credit not crashing with the airplane model. And here's what it is the cockpit is where the leadership sits. It's the vision casting, it's where this thing is going. And so you have to reverse engineer where is this plane going? How much fuel do we need? Who do we need on board? And you do that with mission statement guiding principles. A lot of people already know that. Those are actually really important. Uh, your mission statement. I I have a formula for a mission statement that I think is much better than most mission statements. Most mission statements are not memorable, hard to actualize, written by sound like they were written by lawyers. Mine is just we will accomplish X uh by Y, because of Z. So we will have in my particular business a thousand story brand certified guides, right? By 2027, January 1 of 2027, because a lot of people need help creating good marketing. That's my mission statement. Yeah it's we will accomplish X by Y because of Z, because I think you need to define the objective, you need to put a deadline to it, and then you need to have a reason that this is an altruistic motive in order to motivate a team. And so that that's my mission statement. That's the the cockpit. The wings of the airplane represent your products. They give the company lift. You have to have something to sell in order to get the numbers up.

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

So you have to have products that are highly profitable and in demand, and that creates lift. And then the jet engines of the airplane are your marketing. And your right engine is your marketing, your left engine is your sales. If you don't have sales, you have a single engine aircraft. But those things have to be really sharp, and you increase the thrust of those engines by clarifying your message. The body of the airplane, the fuselage is where the people sit. Uh, that's your overhead. And you want to keep that light as light as you possibly can. So you never want a bunch of people in that thing if you don't need them. And then the fuel tank is the cash flow. And those are the those are the seven parts or the six parts of an airplane that you've got to manage if you're managing a business. So what would happen is somebody would come to me and they would say, Don, you know, we want to, you know, we want to put some new furniture in the office. And it's a hundred grand. And the way I looked at that was you're you're putting a lot of weight into the fuselage of the airplane. And so I would say no. And they would say, Hey, we want to spend a hundred grand on advertising. And I would say, okay, that sounds good because it's making my ride engine sharper, you know, or more, more thrust. So they'd come in and say, wait, why is it it's just a hundred grand furniture of this? Right. Well, let me explain to you how an airplane works. And as long as I kept that in my mind, we kept from crashing the plane.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And you know, so you're constantly making those decisions. Or if sales are sputtering, you know, the fuselage is too big, our overhead's too big, our marketing isn't efficient enough, our sales isn't efficient enough. Uh and if we're running out of gas, we're done.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And I think I think the first thing I when I think about this uh metaphor, which is excellent, I think, is like what's the type of plane you're trying to build too? I just think of my own experience in building our own businesses, is like I've found there's like an optimal speed that you hit in your business, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Of growth.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. And we scaled some businesses very quickly. And in some ways, you have too much fuel. Like the the marketing and sales is cr is phenomenal. And you're gonna crash out. Like you really are. Like that that body of the plane cannot handle it. Your team, your culture, your delivery of your product or your service is threatened if you screw that up.

SPEAKER_01:

And well, not only that, you you end up taking off in a Cessna, yeah, and two hours later you're in a Boeing 737, and the team that ran the Cessna doesn't know how to run this airplane.

SPEAKER_03:

Very true.

SPEAKER_01:

And you know, there are people who are just really, really good at flying a Cessna, they're amazing.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And you find yourself firing them or letting them go or trying to figure out how to transition them out because this this plane has just gotten too big for them.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And that's what I've, you know, you heard the saying, you know, the people that got you worried about the same people that get you worked out.

SPEAKER_01:

Not only that, but you as the owner have to change. Yeah. You have to figure out a whole new set of skills.

SPEAKER_03:

We'll have to evolve. And that goes so when you think about um the cockpit and leadership, I also I think of like the person flying the plane, you know, and it's driving that business every day where it's supposed to go. You also got like, how do I construct these different pieces? And maybe even like focusing in on how do I know what's out of whack?

SPEAKER_01:

Anytime a business is going down, that is your you know, your leads are drying up, your revenues, you know, you you had a negative month and you're moving money out of your safety account back in to fund it. What's wrong is usually your wings aren't big enough or light enough. Yeah, your right and left engine aren't producing enough power, and the body of your plane has too much weight in it. So you gotta throw people out of the body of the plane, which I don't recommend.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

What I recommend is you actually analyze your products and say, is there a way I can make these products more profitable? Can I batch things together to create a new product? Can I take three or four things and you know, if I'm running a little pet store and I'm selling kennels and puppy food and this, can I actually put together a new puppy kit and batch it together and sell a lot more of those? Well, what you did is you just took the wings of the airplane, you made them bigger and lighter.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And then you go over there in your marketing engine and you promote that in the you know, in the paper or whatever, you know, on online, however you're gonna promote that. Or you have somebody in the body of the airplane who's at the cash register, and you make a rule. Anytime somebody buys kibble, they have to say, Did you see our new puppy kit over here? Is there anything over here that well that's gonna increase sales? So you have to think like that in order to to fix the but it's always it's always the airplane is not built right. And then that what that does is it tells you what to fix.

SPEAKER_03:

So as you've looked at, you've looked at and consulted hundreds, thousands of businesses, I presume. Yeah, probably thousands at this point. Thousands. I think marketing and sales is something that solves all problems, right? Like I knew you gotta like execute on it, but you know, if you get the marketing and sales right, you know, that can mask a lot of problems in the business.

SPEAKER_01:

Mask is a good word.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, right. It's not solving it. I should say that's probably not the best word. It's masking it. Where do you spend most of your time when you get into a business owner and they're cons you're consulting with them? Where do you spend most of your time that's gonna move the needle?

SPEAKER_01:

If they've come to me and they're really hurting, we talk about their message, which I would I would put in that marketing engine. I basically say, what problem do you solve? And if they can't answer that question, we have an amazing opportunity.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh we have an amazing opportunity. I've seen companies answer that question, come up with with a sound bite to answer that question and double their business. Yeah. Uh by just talking about what they sell differently. And so I think there are there are what I would do is I would start with five sound bites. They they the the acronym spells out the word peace.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay. So taking notes, guys.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So the first is the problem. Okay. What's the problem that you solve? That's the most important soundbite that you every small business owner needs an answer to that. Okay. And that's the number one thing that you want to talk about from here on out.

SPEAKER_04:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

And there's a lot of reasons for that. Uh mainly because problems are interesting and you're trying to get attention.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

They also qualify customers. Yeah. The next one is the empathy soundbite. Here's why I care about the fact that you have this problem. Yeah. The next one is the answer, and that's where you put the product. I have a product that's going to solve this problem for you. The next one is the C, P-E-A-C. So C is change. When you use my product, your problem will go away. Life changes for you. And then finally, the end result. What does life look like after I buy your product? Let me give you an example. A company came to me recently uh called You Need a Budget. Wineab is the name of the company. This is a$50 million app in the Apple store. They're making$50 million a year selling this app. They have a cult-like following. People love this app. They use it to manage their money, they use it to manage their lifestyle. They came to me and they didn't like the word budget because it's really not about restrictive stuff. You know, it's about spending and you know, a bunch of re rules on, but they're already doing really well. So let me let me give you the the the peace sound bites. P was have you ever worried about money? So everybody listening to me as it relates to your business needs a have you ever worried about?

unknown:

Right?

SPEAKER_01:

Have you ever worried about? Then they said, We know how it feels to worry about money. So that's it's very simple. That's your empathetic soundbite. The answer is also very simple. Download the YNAB app. So P E A, download the YNAB app is the answer. C is we'll we'll help you get good with money. So that's how we we're changing you, we're transforming you. We're gonna help you get good with money. The end result is so you never have to worry about money again. Now let's say I'm at a cocktail party. Todd Curtis is the CEO. Todd, let's say Todd's at a cocktail party and somebody says, Todd, what do you do? If he says I'm the CEO of Wineab, it's an app that helps you figure out how to spend money well and uh not not let it drive you crazy, you're gonna get some casual conversation. But if if you say, Todd, what do you do? and he says, Well, have you or anybody you ever known worried about money? Yeah, all of a sudden that's a more interesting conversation. Right, totally, absolutely. I'm wondering where this is going. And then he says, I really feel for you. I have 65 employees who feel your pain, feel your uncle's pain. Everybody worries about money, and we really care about them. What we want them to do is download the Wineab app off of the App Store. It's gonna teach you to manage money, and we're gonna help you get really good with money. That's what that app is gonna do so that you never have to worry about money again. Yeah. That is a much more interesting way to describe your business. We value Matt, we value products that solve problems. What most business owners do is they talk about their product thinking that the person will figure out what problem it solves, and nobody ever figures it out. So if you actually lead with the problem, then express empathy, which basically creates a bond between you and the person that you're talking to, and then position your product as the solution to that problem, the perceived value of that product goes way up, and people are much more likely to buy it. Then you talk about the change that you personally are going to experience if I use my product, if you use my product. That says there's there's not just a product, you're going to transform me. And then the end result is the happily ever after ending that you're going to have if you use my product. So essentially, every story is about a hero who's at peace. Then they fall into a hole. Then a guide comes to the edge of the hole, empathizes with them, throws a rope down, pulls them out of the hole to return them to peace. Yeah. And that's exactly what you're doing with your business. You're saying, here's the hole you're in, use this rope, which is my product, so I can pull you out of this and you can get back to normal.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Now this is coming, is this this is stuff out of Story Brand 2.0. This is your latest book that's out. Where you is this where Pieces comes out in?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's actually there's actually more than that in there, but that's in there, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So, because I know you talk also about, you know, the hero is the customer in the story and the guide here is the business. Right. I also thought it was interesting too. I was reading some of your work about that somehow like this problem that you're trying to solve and your message, or I guess your answer and what you're trying to change is also like expressing some injustice in the situation of what you're trying to solve. Yeah. Tell me about that. Because I'm actually going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you're getting into the additional information. You're, you know, the advanced. Every business listening to me needs those five sound bites. Yeah. Philosophically, here's why you need them. Because every human being wakes up identifying as a hero in a story. A hero is a character that wants something and overcomes conflict to get it. So as it relates to your business, my question to you is what's the conflict that your customers trying to overcome? They need a new roof, they need a plumber, they need, you know, they're they don't want to do their landscaping anymore. What's the problem they're trying to overcome? They are the hero in the story. The hero is ill-equipped, afraid to take action, in desperate need of help. You never want to position yourself as the hero in the story if you run a brand. The reason is that's a weak character. That's your customer. Your customer is a weak character. The guide, which is in almost every movie you ever see, Mr. Miyagi, Young. Obi-Kenobi. Obi-Wan Kenobi. Mary Poppins is the guide. The guide is a much, much stronger character who helps the hero win. So every hero, every customer out there has a problem and they're looking for somebody to help them. And when you come along and you play the hero, I own a locksmith company and I'm trying to grow it. I inherited it from my father and I want to pass it along to my son. I I I'm not hearing anything that is helping me out of a hole here. And so what you need to do is position yourself as the guide helping the hero win.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And all of a sudden, people start paying attention to you. The the way you do that is you empathize with the customer's pain. You talk about their pain constantly. I always say if you want to grow your business, talk 75% about the pain your customer is in and 25% about your product.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And you'll you'll your sales will go up.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. It's interesting. I know like Nike had a whole theme for a while about um honoring athletes, basically, and on honoring like it wasn't about their product. You know, it wasn't about like our shoes do this. It was more like honoring athletes, which I thought was like an interesting way to look at.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so what they're doing is they're they have defined an aspirational identity for their customer. When I talk about change and that the transformation that a hero goes through, think about YNAB. Their last sound sound bite is you'll never worry about our money again. Yeah. And also, we will help you get good with money. That's an aspirational identity. So what Nike is doing is saying, you know, look at these athletes and how great they are and how amazing they are. Yeah. And associating that with their Nike swoosh and all of their products, because you would like to also be a great athlete, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And so I'm going to go buy these products to feel like the aspirational identity that Nike is presenting. When you have that many products and your company is that big, it's very hard to do actual sales. And so selling an aspirational identity is a move that multi-billion dollar brands can do. I would say if you have a small business, it's not your best play.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

In other words, you know, Coke probably spends five billion dollars a year, Coca-Cola or more. I don't know their marketing budget. And all their marketing is is really, you know, can it's just sort of like a feel-good marketing.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

If a small business tries to do that, they'll go bankrupt.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

The reason is we all know what Coca-Cola is. I don't know what you do.

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

So Coca-Cola doesn't have to explain what it does, it doesn't have to explain the problem that it solves. It doesn't have to do any of that because it's a household name. And a lot of times you'll take your hard-earned money as a small business owner to a marketing firm, a small marketing firm, and they'll use Coca-Cola's playbook. Yeah. And they'll put you in bankruptcy doing it.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And they'll still take your money. What they need to do is actually just explain what problem you solve, put it on a billboard, put it on meta ads, and start making money.

SPEAKER_03:

So this peace method is very specific for small business owners. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, even a big if you're running for president, that's the script. So it's not just I my one of my clients is national security. This is the script we use.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

On China policy. So it's it's not just small businesses. Big businesses need to do this too.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I love it. And I do think, you know, I tell our team a lot of times, I'm like, the the problem our customers face is like our opportunity, actually. Like that's why we exist as a business to begin with. And so we are able to solve their problem. This is more in the execution of our services as we kind of talk about it as a team. But I'm taking notes here on how to articulate this from a marketing message.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I mean, you could say something like with a self-directed IRA. You could say, you could say something like, have you ever wanted to invest creatively, but you can't because your money's tied up in an IRA? You know if you if you want a more control. I I I'm I'm tempted to say, do you want more control over your retirement investments? But I think that's a little bit too elusive or vague. It doesn't trigger that desire. Yeah. So if you actually say a lot of people invest in real estate or crypto or these sorts of things, they want to do these things, but they don't have the money.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, actually, if you put your retirement into an IRA account, you can you can invest creatively.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, I you know something like that would be how I would open the conversation.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Yeah, I think we kind of talk about how we let you invest in assets you know and believe in. And see, but you gotta like identify what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, you help us control. I have no control over what I'm investing in. If I gotta fund a SEP IRA, right? Yeah. Um, but if I put that money into a self-directed IRA, I have a lot of creativity and control over what I do with my retirement investing.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And maybe maybe that's an angle. You want to test these.

SPEAKER_03:

And I think the empathy angle is you've wanted to do this. Haven't you ever wanted to invest in this and have more control and freedom and flexibility to invest in what you know and believe in? Yeah. Rather than what's on the menu. Yeah. I mean, that's not bad. Fidelity. Yeah. Well, open up a self-directed I, right, directed I'm going to do it. We're going to change your life. And you're going to live happily ever after having a retirement you're looking forward to. There you go.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, there it's see, it's easy. It's easy.

SPEAKER_03:

There you go. I mean, uh, you know, I'm a good student. Well, tell me about you got some AI stuff that you're doing too. And I've been like really I've poo-pooed AI on our in our team in many ways, I have to say. Yeah. I'll get copy or I'll get stuff, and I'm like, did AI write this? And they're like, yes. I'm like, because it's kind of there and it sounds really good, but it's wrong.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You know? The problem with AI, if I if I go to Chat GPT as a writer, as somebody who's written, I don't know, 15 books now, it takes me, I I do work with AI to write.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It's slower because the prompts that I'm putting in are so long. They're almost longer than the answer it's giving me. And the problem that the reason that bad writing is coming out of AI is because the prompts you're using. Yeah. You're not giving it, yeah. You're not telling it what not to say. So what I did was created storybrand.ai and gave it 110 single-spaced uh pages of notes on. So for instance, storybrand.ai will never let you play the hero in the story. It will always position you as the guide.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Uh it will not make that mistake. And everybody makes that mistake. Story brand will not be vague, it will not be elusive, it will not be probably my favorite. It will not let you use inside language, it will not do any of that. And so the the results are much better. I would still say consider everything that comes out as rough draft, you know, and test it. But what I wanted to do is take and improve from a writer's perspective, and I've written many books, uh, what AI was going to spit out. And so storybrand.ai came out of that.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So I want to get where we are today because I want to get those three things out on the table. How to grow your small business. Yeah. I want to talk about what you're doing with Storybrand 2.0. We got in AI, because that's all cutting edge. People do want to hear about AI. And I'm trying to figure that out. Everybody's trying to figure that out, right?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

But I want to just talk about like some of the lessons you've learned with working with small business owners.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Then maybe some examples or two where you've seen transformational change. And because I we run across business owners, you know, you know, as a as a business and tax lawyer, I'd get them on the phone and they're making so much money, they're just like want every tax strategy out there. Yeah. And I'm like, wow, they're so successful. And then we got other ones fighting issues, problems here and there, and they're like hanging on for dear life. And like, I'm just gonna go back to my job. Entrepreneurship and small business is really hard. Yeah. Right. And um, so there can be a lot of success and a lot of failure, I think, in entrepreneurism, running a small business. What have you seen that's consistent or would be instructional for most small business owners listening right now to make meaningful impact in their business?

SPEAKER_01:

I I the number one thing, and I've got two, but the number one thing is that you need to worry about and figure out is what problem am I gonna own? That's it. Uh you have got to own a problem. And when people think of a leaky roof or a dog that barks every time somebody knocks on the door, they've got to think about you if that's the problem you solve. Yeah. And so you need to work on your sound bite that says, if you're struggling with X, call me. Well, what's X? Most people are vague or they list too many things and it goes in one ear, out the other. If you can actually nail that problem, that's the biggest challenge to growing your business, is people can't figure out why they should buy from you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Now the the only reason anybody pulls out their wallet and buys anything is to solve a problem. And so if you own a problem, then everybody who has that problem is going to give you money. But if you are vague and elusive in how you talk about it, you're not gonna own the problem. The money is in the problem. So that's the number one thing.

SPEAKER_03:

What's a good example? Do you have you have do you have an example of someone you've worked with or even your own business expertise where you had to like refocus that and it was like transformational change? Like it's not sometimes like, you know, we think of the aircraft, it's not so much like that the the wings or the products are wrong, whether it's the locksmith or the plumber or whatever it is. Like they have the expertise to solve the problem. They're just messaging it wrong.

SPEAKER_04:

Right.

SPEAKER_03:

Who's up in the cockpit is like going around like you know, they can't hit the right the right path forward, whatever it is, you know, to like drive that plane efficiently to make it profitable.

SPEAKER_01:

Let me give you a non-small business example, just because it's a fun example. National security. So the national security, the NSA is a massive organization. It's classified how many employees. I don't have a security clearance there, but I've worked with them quite a bit. They have so many challenges. Eight or so divisions, cybersecurity, Signet, you know, they work with the Pentagon, they work with foreign security analysis and organizations. They have to do uh congressional authorization to fund the NSA every single year. So they're going to Congress every year and asking them to re-up the budget, which means Senate hearing after Senate hearing after confirmation hearing. So what they didn't have though was a controlling idea because it's a it's actually a relatively new organization. Massive, the budget is is not disclosed. And they have all sorts of problems. I mean, people think they spy on American citizens, they don't. Yeah. You know, like Hollywood is really misrepresenting them in a terrible way. And so as as we worked with them, we thought, well, you know, they had kind of a tagline, which was protect our freedom, defend the future. But that that's that's an example of vague.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So when you go m member to meet a member of Congress and they have some power to affect this authorization, and you say, Well, defend our freedom, you know, they're going, what are you, the Marines? What are you the Pentagon? What are you making us a helicopter? What are you doing? So we needed something more specific than that. And the interim director actually came up with intelligence means victory. Three words. So now you go to Congress and you say, Well, as you know, intelligence means victory and we need billions of dollars. What are they saying yes or no to? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Victory. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Right? And it's also in now intelligence is just what they collect, uh, but they also protect our intelligence. That has some weight to it now because it means we get defeated if we don't have it. That's the sort of sound bite that you're looking for. Something that immediately says, okay, let's talk about that. That seems really, really important.

SPEAKER_03:

Whoever's buying, whether that's a customer or a member of Congress, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, because really what is Congress saying is like we're we're running a pretty bad deficit, yeah, and you're asking for what? And so what they're actually saying is, why are you important? Why should I fund you? Well, defend our future, protect the freedom, it's not gonna motivate a pen on a check. What's gonna motivate that is intelligence means victory. And so, you know, you're looking for that sound bite that explains why your product is so urgent, what problem it solves, and it needs to resonate with your customer in seconds, really in milliseconds. As soon as you say it, somebody needs to say, I need that, or my uncle needs that.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Or tell me more.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, because I I might want to buy this. Let me give you an example. Let's say you're at a cocktail party and you meet two people who do the same thing, same product, same price, same quality. Meet the first one, you say, What do you do? They say, Well, I'm an at-home chef. You know, I come to your house and I cook. You're gonna have questions about where they went to culinary school, you're gonna have questions about who they've cooked for. You ever cooked for anybody famous? You know, things like that. Next person, an hour later, same product, same price, same value, everything. What do you do? Well, you know how most families don't eat together anymore because they don't have time. I'm an at-home chef. I come to your house and cook. Completely different conversation.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, way better positioned.

SPEAKER_01:

But it's the same product. But but chef number two is gonna do all the business. Yeah. Because they've positioned their product as the solution to a problem. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I love that example because it gets it what it gets at the problem you might not think you're solving. Like Yeah, what's the that's a what's the real problem? What's the real problem? You're not solving food. No. You're solving I want to eat at home with my family and I don't have time.

SPEAKER_01:

That's exactly it.

SPEAKER_03:

And that's way more compelling. Like I'd buy that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

We do, I buy that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

We have someone that comes to our house that cooks for us because we have that problem.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And you want to eat at home. Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

You want to eat healthy and you want to eat together and you don't have time to cook.

SPEAKER_03:

And I don't buy it because I need food. I buy it because I want to be at home.

SPEAKER_01:

That's exactly it and pay a premium for it. I get my haircut on my front porch. Yeah. So I don't have time. Yeah. You know, so it it let's say, and I probably charge I probably pay twice as much for a haircut. Yeah. But that that barber, you know, she Robin, she might introduce herself by saying, you know, really busy people that don't have time to get a haircut. But in this age, day and age, you gotta look good. I come to your house. I come to your house and I cook. And I cook your house and I cut your hair.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That's how she should position herself.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And she can charge twice as much for doing that.

SPEAKER_03:

Can I tell you one of the best sells I just remember this moment? I was I had a BMW at the time. Love that car. It was this BMW six series. I took it in to get fixed. It had a had a tire blown out on it. The guy, this is the guy like, you know, just selling me tires, right? And he comes back and he's like, All right, well, I have that tire, but it's like$1,200. I'm like, for one tire? And he's like, yeah. He's like, but I'll put it on in 45 minutes. He's like, and he and I was like, done. He sold me on time because I thought when he phrased it that way, I thought, I'm gonna have to go somewhere else. Go to Costco or discount tie, wherever you go. Yeah. And he knew I was in a hustle because I was in there, like, all right, how much longer will this? What's the time? When can I get in? Like, so he kind of had a this is just a you know a one on one thing, but I'm just thinking.

SPEAKER_01:

That was really, really intelligent of him. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I was like, done. He's like, cool, you'll be done in 30, 40, 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_01:

But I mean, yeah, I mean, I you know, I probably would have made the same decision. That's so interesting. Because he reframed it that as not being about money, but being about time. He didn't think that's the same.

SPEAKER_03:

The thing is, if you don't buy that tire, this matches your other tires.

SPEAKER_01:

He was like And also you you quickly realized if I don't buy this tire, it's gonna cost me hours to figure out how to solve this problem. That was probably a$600 tire.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, exactly. I knew I looked in the 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_01:

He charged you$600 for the 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_02:

I was Googling what that tire really was for. It was not$1,200. And he knew that. Yeah. He told me that.

SPEAKER_03:

He's like, go get somewhere else. But but I do think some of those attributes to your services, that could be the plumber or the locksmith. A lot of people who do might DY DIY the service that you that you sell, right? You're a lot of times you're giving them back time, which you can tie to their family or the things that they otherwise may want to do or love.

SPEAKER_01:

Or is there a big you know, one thing to ask ourselves is our product solves problem X. Is there a more valuable problem that it also solves? Our problem solves a hungry family. But a family that can't connect because they they can't sit together at dinner anymore is a bigger problem. Well, let's switch to that.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Let's talk about that now.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And let's see if that gets a better result. You're you're always looking to sort of say, is there a bigger problem that I can solve here? I have a friend who wrote a book about the Enneagram, you know, personality theory type thing. I got an email from him and it said he's doing a spiritual retreat for 50 bucks on the Enneagram. So I texted him back and I said, I'll pay 50 bucks to learn what you know about the Enneagram to help me spiritually. But I'll pay 10,000 if you can help my team connect with each other and understand each other. He called me and said, What are you talking about? I said, It's the same thing. Yeah, just sell it, package it in a different way and solve a bigger problem. Now that's all he does. And he has two houses doing it. Because he took the same product instead of selling it for 50 bucks, he sold it for 10,000 bucks because it's like a cordless drill. I can either come and hang a picture or I can use it to build a house. Yeah. But it's just it's the same drill. So you got to figure out what problem am I solving here.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and I think you know, you've got a whether it's marketing or sales and however your messaging, your story, what whatever this is, like we have a certain amount of attention from people and this window of buying opportunity, whether it's an email that you got or you know, it's a one-on-one conversation, it's a whatever it is. It's an ad, it's a website. I mean, people have limited attention span, and we do think they will connect the dots.

SPEAKER_01:

No, they won't.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Like you gotta lay it up for them.

SPEAKER_01:

You do. You you can't, you know, we have a notch around our office and it's don't make people think.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, do not make people think. Spell it out so clearly.

SPEAKER_03:

Don't bury the lead.

SPEAKER_01:

Which by the way, the reason that people are are not clear is because it's extremely hard. It's very, very easy to say things that are vague and confusing. It is extremely hard to say things clearly. But when you say things clearly, nobody has to think to figure out why they should give you money. So it's worth sitting and thinking about the sound bite that I'm going to use. And one of the reasons I love sound bites is you write it once and you repeat it a million times. Yeah. And you memorize it and you just say it. It's just a line.

SPEAKER_03:

Part of your team culture, too.

SPEAKER_01:

That's exactly it.

SPEAKER_03:

It's very digestible.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. 15 minutes can save you 15% on car insurance or whatever it is. Like that's your line. Yeah. And you just repeat it over and over and you make a billion dollars.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. So I started this dialogue here of one major thing, and you talked about sound bites, getting clear on the problem that you're solving. Like, what problem do I own?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, own a problem.

SPEAKER_03:

How about that? Own a problem.

SPEAKER_01:

And and let me just say this real quick. Many small business owners will say, Well, all my competitors solve the same problem. Let me just tell you if you're saying it clearly in the mind of the public, you're the only one solving that problem. Yeah. You're the only one. So clarity is your competitive advantage. If so many good one-liner science, well, you know, think about like think about like Peter's Clarity is your How many doctors out there are helping you with longevity? Yeah. A million? How many can you name? One.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Why? Because he communicates the clearest. Yeah. Peter Atia. And so you want to be that person in your industry. You want to own it. You're going to own it with clarity.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. I think you said you had two things. You said one was what problem do I have to do?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, the other one is a whole other, a whole other world that we can dive into. But maybe let's give him a taste of the case. Yeah, you need a master plan. You know, I learned uh I read Pete Carroll's book. Oh, I think it was called Win Win Forever. Yeah. Okay. I met him and got to know him, and we spent some time together. Not much. He probably wouldn't remember me now, but he did remember me for a minute. But he he's he's an inspiration for me. And he made it all the way to the head coach of the Jets and the head coach of the New England Patriots and was fired. He had 500 seasons, I think, with those teams. He had a year off in Southern California where he was from, and he decided you know, the thing I've never done as an NFL coach or as a coach, period, is put together a master plan of how I would run a team. I've been winging it. And so he he spent a year putting together a giant binder of how he would run practice, how he would run meetings, how he would recruit players, all this kind of stuff. And he got organized. He even had a page on how the receptionist would answer the phone. So he became a micromanager of a team. USC called him and said, Can we interview you for the head coach job? Now, what was true at the time was USC already had their head coach, but the board was saying you need to hire you need to interview two other coaches in order to we're not gonna let you hire this guy. Well, Pete lived in the area, so they were like, Well, we don't have to fly him in. Yeah, let's get him in here for 30 minutes. Yeah, yeah. So he comes in, he drops this binder on the desk, and they start asking him questions. Like eight hours later, he's still sitting there and they're they're blown away by this guy. And they actually say, What would you say in the press conference if we made you head coach at USC? And he said, Well, turn to page 433 because I already wrote it. And he did. And they hired him on the spot.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And uh he they were and he took him to multiple national championships. Then he goes on to Seattle, takes him to two Super Bowls, and wins one of them. The difference between you running a good business and you being a champion is that master plan. And I just saw a clip of Nick Saban in a meeting at Alabama. He had a binder. I'm not making this up, man. That binder was 20 inches thick. I don't even know that. I don't even know where they got that binder. Like who makes that binder? It's this thick. And you say, well, how does he win national championships? He knows how you're supposed to drink from the water fountain.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And you better do it right.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And everybody knows their job. There's no excuse. He's not winging it. And that's the point I'm preaching to the choir because that's the point I'm in with my company. Like if we're gonna get to 100 million, we need we need a master plan on how everything in this business operates. Yeah. And um, that's the journey I'm on next, is that master plan.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and I think if we go back to that the plane analogy, you know, if you're that captain in the cockpit, you know, flying that thing, you better know everything about that business, how that plane's supposed to fly.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, that is like your well, and you do it with you do it with checklists. You do not you do not trust your gut.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. And that's why they do that thing, right? But the whole team know their role and what their responsibility is. What do we do if there's danger? What if this warning goes off, right? Like all these contingencies and things you think of for flying a plane. This is a business. I mean, that stuff is complicated and hard too.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep.

SPEAKER_03:

There are challenges.

SPEAKER_01:

And people can get hurt.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

People's livelihoods are at stake.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, there's a lot at risk. You know, your own, your employees, your customers. I mean, you've got to win on all those different areas. And I think it can be difficult to be at the helm of that. And and having a plan, I mean, we we try to do this. I'm just thinking of so many things to do here for myself, but I gotta get not caught up in that. I can totally um relate to that preparation and planning, the initial thought in it. But I will say one thing is being willing to change and adapt to.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And that there could be contingencies like in Pete Carroll's binder.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm sure every page changes. Yeah, you know, what happened. That's how your marketing director comes back and says, Hey, I'd like to change how we do a webinar. Okay, well, let's talk about it. And then rip that out and put it in.

SPEAKER_03:

What do we do? You know, there is no more Pac 10 or 12, whatever it was. So well, Donald, awesome to have you here.

SPEAKER_01:

Matt, thank you. I've I've I've really loved this conversation.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, it's been great. I got you a tax tip too. You got me a great tax tip. Before we go here, self-rental rule. If you didn't make it here on the podcast, so we clipped that out. But uh self-rental rule for any of you business owners buying real estate for your own business, which Donald's doing, you can use a self-rental rule to write off your real estate losses against the business income. All right, where should people go um to learn more about you or anything you've got coming up?

SPEAKER_01:

Storybrand.com. Okay, storybrand.ai is where you can go, and I'll write your sound bites for you. I love it. And by the way, that's free. There's a paid version, but you get it for seven days for free. So uh let me write your sound bites.

SPEAKER_03:

And I'll write your sound bites for you. So you're always good with the messaging.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, you don't just teach me. Let me let me let me say it better. Let me say it better. You're saying it wrong and it's costing you money. Let me rewrite it for you. Go to storybrand.ai.

SPEAKER_02:

So you can make more business.

SPEAKER_01:

That's exactly so you can make more money and enjoy your life. So you stop sounding like a fool.

SPEAKER_03:

See, we gotta get to the change and the end result too. I'll carry that through.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that that's yeah, so that you can retire with an IRA that you can control. Yeah, with a lot more money.

SPEAKER_03:

You're actually looking forward to. Not dreading. Awesome to have you here. Thanks so much. Get over to Storybrand 2.0.

SPEAKER_01:

Storybrand 2.0 is the book on Amazon.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, storybrand.com and then storybrand.ai.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

All right. And then you have an event coming up too.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Oh, yeah, we do. We have one in uh January. It's a story brand your business live. It's limited to a hundred people, but I'm in the room for two days with you. And I'm gonna really write your sound bites. Okay. I'm gonna tell you when they're when they're wrong. Okay. And we've got about 20 coaches who are gonna be in the room kind of hovering around and make sure you get it right. So if you just want to nail it down, you want to get your five sound bites.

SPEAKER_03:

Other business owners.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, other business owners, other business owners. We're gonna look at uh your website and show you how you can do things differently. And you can find out more about that at storybrand.com. Actually, I'm sorry, storybrandyourbusiness.com.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, is where that one is.

SPEAKER_03:

Storybrandyourbusiness.com. All right. Well, thanks for being in today. Um, thanks everyone for being here for the Main Street Business Podcast. We'll be back next week with another amazing episode. We'll see you then.

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Mark J. Kohler

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