Welcome to this podcast series on Neocharismatic leadership with author, leadership expert and coach Dr. Ghadah Angawi and executive leader Martin Hedley, where they will both explore the recently published book, Neocharismatic leadership and the coaching topics, it covers
Martin Hedley:
Ghadah, we're still talking about the first stage, search for opportunity, and the same role, challenging the status quo. I'm beginning to feel that we're covering this role in two episodes to do it justice. It would only be fair to our listeners who come from different leadership levels and backgrounds then we do, to do so. In fact, we've received some questions and comments which I'd like to reflect on through our discussion around what does this challenging role look like from an ordinary individual perspective? And perhaps we can go into a topic that faces everybody worldwide as a way of explaining this?
Ghadah Angawi:
Yeah, sure. Thank you, Martin, for for this explanation, I felt the same, that we have to address each role from different levels of leadership, whether it's in organisations or in social contexts, or just being an individual who wants to influence others and build followers.
Martin Hedley:
One of the questions that I get a lot, and it is related in many cases to climate change. Now, we don't want to go into any sort of political discussions here, we're going to use this as an example to explain what how a neocharismatic leader will approach it versus somebody else. But the question I get asked is, so what kind of change? Or what kind of challenge should I instigate? Or should I look for to be a leader in? The first thing that I do is I say, there are three aspects to consider here. The first one is the amount of change. So do you need an adjustment? Do you need to make a major change? Do you need a fundamental redesign? Or do you need to completely disrupt something? Okay. The second thing, of course, is your approach to this. And the third is the tools or the method that you use to do it. So let's go first to the level of change, when a neocharismatic leader is looking for change, or or just comes across some opportunity to make a change? How would they determine whether they have to disrupt, redesign change, or just make an adjustment? What would you say?
Ghadah Angawi:
First of all, as a leader, they have to first assess their own environment, which is rule number one. So is this something that falls into their expertise, their vision, their strategy for for their own career, for their own personal vision in life? It does it affect the people they love the people they care about? Or does it affect the people in their organisation, or just the people that live with them in their communities. So this kind of assessment is important. And then they start looking around and seeing who is around them, that part of it, that will take part of it, because it could be their families, it could be their colleagues, it could be their peers, it could be just people they meet on the street every day, who live around them. It's important because there is no movement without rebel effect. Anything you do anything you say, will have an effect on others. And then they will come to the decision with this challenge is going to be a drastic major challenge in that community that will disrupt or is it just some kind of a smooth movement that will help people understand a specific value area? If we take your example? Would it be them being part of conversations or a meetup group or somewhere where they can vote for something? Or is it that they can write about it or what kind of challenge they want to pose. And when we talk about challenge, there is always a group that will be with you and a group that will be against you. And there's people who are not sure whether to follow you or not, is the challenge about you standing out, or is it about you influencing? And when you look at neocharismatic leadership, the whole thing about this style is influencing others, and bringing about transformation in a positive, altruistic, ethical way. So if you put that in this context, you cannot ignore the fact that whatever decision you make, it's not about you. It's not about you becoming famous or being the the leader inflicting change.
Martin Hedley:
Yes, because we are asking all of our listeners to consider themselves leaders and then to go on and be leaders. So that doesn't mean that they're necessarily going to lead the entire world against climate change. No, but what it does mean, is that, are you going to be a leader in your community? Are you going to be the leader, for the sake of you believing that it's the correct thing to do, as opposed to wanting to be seen as a leader? And so this is exactly where I go in the deeper coaching discussions that I have. And I say to people, okay, if you believe that a total disruption is the right way to go. And, you know, we've seen some environmentalists that have got a become quite drastic in their fight for climate change. Because they say, you know, the world is not sustainable the way we're treating it, and we won't survive. Well, yeah, that's a pretty big issue. Everybody in the world is interested in it, right. But, if I cannot get all of the other people in the world, to agree and to do something about it, then it doesn't matter. It's going to end anyway, right? So I, as a neocharismatic leader, I've got to make sure that I am doing the right thing by setting the example and then building from that. So when I say, disruption, or a minor adjustment, okay, no, I can't go around changing the way that countries do their farming, or the way that countries generate their electricity and things like that, that clearly is something that has to be done at a governmental level, and an inter governmental level. But what I can do, and what I've noticed over the last five years is, you know, I've stopped getting reusable cups at Starbucks, for example. And I take my own cup, now, at least 70% of the time, I don't buy plastic bottles, when I can help it, it's got to the point now that I'm so used to doing that, and people are so used to seeing me do that, I now get angry when I get plastic packaging back from the grocery store that isn't necessary. So now, you know, five years ago, I didn't think about it. In the last three years, I've really been thinking about it and now I'm writing to grocery stores saying this packaging is too wasteful and too destructive, please come up with something else. Right. So that's an example of me exercising my rights to say this isn't good enough. And people if they want to check on me, they can look at the way I live and they'll see that is following the goal that I want, which is to reduce the effects of global warming. So perhaps, and perhaps if I was younger, it would be a bit different, I have a different perspective. But you know, I might have the energy to go out and get a group that goes around and educates people in a community in their town or something like that, you know, that is going to win people over. And that is going to affect the ultimate disruption that we want that will cause us to take global warming seriously. Whereas just being confrontational, and this is of course the second point that I was going to go on to, just being confrontational, actually turns as many people off as it as it excites, it's going to have the absolute opposite effect.
Ghadah Angawi:
It's asking people to let go of the comforts. This is where it becomes dangerous. You're asking them to change their values, without going through the process of changing their beliefs.
Martin Hedley:
Exactly.
Ghadah Angawi:
You have to address their belief system. And I remember when I started doing things around the environment, because remember, I started in 1998, doing my master's degree in education for sustainability and it was a huge learning for me to go through that course, than I was raising my kids. My 13 year old daughter does not want to use a straw because he knows that straw will stick into a fish throat and kill it. But the thing is, we have to do it in a way that helps people understand, because this is when they start doing something about
Martin Hedley:
Right, and that's where the second piece comes in. it. So what approach are you going to take, if you're going to be this neocharismatic leader? and you again, like anything, there's a sort of an extreme left and an extreme right to this, and the scale in between. So are you going to use a confrontational approach, in that you want people to just start doing things, encouraging, or perhaps just empowered? In other words, when I talk to people who I'm coaching, I say, you know, the people that you're leading already can make this change by themselves? Are you making sure they are empowered to make it? Whereas on the other side of the coin, are you going to have to confront people? And if you're going to confront people, you know, how are you going to confront them, but then still win them over at the end. So if you confront them for the sake of confrontation, you're probably going to turn them away from what you want. But if you confront them with an idea, and this will lead to the third piece, if you confront them with an idea, right, and then they will sort of stop and consider the idea, you've got their attention, because you confronted them and now your approach dramatically drops into sort of instigation. So for example, you know, did you know how many dolphins were killed every year through these huge plastic chains that form in the sea? And that if we all stopped drinking out of plastic bottles, we could stop this in 10 years? Well, that's not an impossible ask. So I can say, you know, I can actually do something about that. And I think it was one of my children telling me that story five years ago, that has now caused me and my family, the whole family to start asking questions, like, why is that in a plastic bottle? Is the glass bottle better? We don't know. It's certainly we are more more recyclable and could be better. But, again, I need to know a little bit more information, but I'm certainly willing to question whether I should have had that plastic bottle. So that's a change that's happening.
Ghadah Angawi:
Exactly, and doing the thing I said about influencing people's beliefs, they start to adopt new beliefs that will help them change their values, what they value in life, what they want to keep what they want to let go of, and that influences their behaviours. But as you said, neocharismatic leadership is not just that stage of searching for opportunity, then there comes the second stage where they start formulating a shared vision and articulating that vision. And this is the stage where you start influencing people's beliefs. Yes, then you move into the stage where you devise means to achieve the vision, where you act, where you take personal risks and unconventional behaviours. And people see you doing this. And this is when they think this person is serious about it.
Martin Hedley:
Yes, that's right. That's what you want, you want your followers to believe, because it's true, that you are serious about a subject or a topic. And once they believe that, then they will, at least, they're at least open to following you. So this brings me to the third point of my coaching for individuals that are trying to do this. And say, remember, the question that I get from them is usually, well, should I be all based on data and logic? Or should I just be driving this with emotion? And the answer, unfortunately, is yes, you have to do both. But you've got to understand why. You know, a good leader, neocharismatic or otherwise, a good leader is going to present you with facts and figures and logical arguments, you hope. And most people are willing to listen to that. Now, that does depend on the credibility that you have with where that information is coming from. So for example, if somebody said to me, the so and so vaccine doesn't work, you shouldn't use it. Then I'm going to say, okay, so where does that information come from? And they go on and I say, well okay, there's sort of medical science on one side that has studied this for many, many years. And then there are some people that are questioning it on the other, but there's no credentials there. So it doesn't mean I'm going to totally discount it. But I'm more likely to go with the overall consensus of a number of experts. Not one expert is very important, but the overall consensus of experts. If somebody comes to me, though, and says, Okay, I read an article that was written by Al Gore, about climate change, then most people are going to say, he's dedicated about 20 years of his life to this one topic, I at least, will owe it to listen to him, that and he actually is a good artist, so he can get it across. But again, he he's the leader that can get the message across. And he's the leader that by demonstrating in his own behaviours, some changes, he can get people to emotionally buy into that topic. Okay, so I've got all this data and all of these facts in front of me. And now I'm beginning to say, yes, I believe them. But that's not going to move people. No, now you have to take that you realise your lead is, that you're leading, and people are following you. Now, you've actually got to turn that around and use your emotive power to get them to do something. So I cut down my usage of plastic bottles last year by 70%. How are you doing? Okay, well, wow, there's a challenge, isn't it? There's a little bit of data there, the 70%. But actually, nobody's going to question you, if you say, so they're probably going to say you I didn't cut mine by anything. So I could do better than that. Right. And that's where the emotive side comes in, you have to balance this, you can't just go in and immediately start complaining to somebody that they're not doing enough. Or they're not doing the right thing. Absolutely, you're right, you have not got into their belief system, you're still threatening their current situation, instead of giving them an opportunity to change something that needs to be changed.
Ghadah Angawi:
You're addressing the behaviours, you're not addressing the cause. Because it's what they, in their core, they believe in. So when we talk about neocharismatic leaders, it's not just the role itself that stands out, it's the whole concept, the whole behavioural roles, together with the model itself from stage to stage, it's intertwined. And remember, we spoke about, you know, a leader moving from one stage to another, sequentially, or jumping unsequentially, yes, like from from phase one to phase three, and then going back to phase two, and then going back to behaviour, number one, and then so they're constantly moving around in a concerted effort to try to achieve that vision, and drive everybody around them. So you cannot separate one role on it's own.
Martin Hedley:
No and that's what appears to be daunting to some people. So when I'm coaching, I remind them, first of all, that, no leader get's this right, every time, many of us just get many things wrong every single day. But we get more things right than we get wrong. And people recognise that in us. That's the first thing. The second thing is, you do unfortunately have to break down leadership into all of these components into these phases and roles and everything into to understand each one is it's own entity, and then you put it back together in your own hole, what actually makes sense to you. And then when you're there, that's when it has become you. You are being altruistic, you are truly following what you believe in. And so it's the sum of all of these things that we're talking about, put together, that will help you a) find the challenge that you need for the status quo. And then as we slowly move into how to formulate this shared vision, many of these skills are going to come back, and we're going to we're going to hit on them again.
Ghadah Angawi:
I think we're approaching the end of our episode, I would like to ask our listeners to think about one challenge to implement that whole. And it means all what we said assessment, sensing people's needs, a long term vision, and then coming to that space of challenge and see what kind of response you get from others. How do they interact with you? And the way they interact? Take it in, assess again, and think about it.
Martin Hedley:
Yes, I think this is a very valuable exercise because no matter how big or small a topic you pick, there is the responses that you get from other people are going to give you a lot of hints as to how you are approaching neocharismatic leadership. And I think it's going to be of great value to them. We're sort of wrapping up the first stage now they're challenging the status quo. And we're going to be moving on in the next set of podcasts to formulating the shared vision. Please continue to send in your comments. We do appreciate them. And thank you for tuning in. Goodbye.
Introducer:
Ghadah and Martin, hope you enjoyed this episode. There is more information available at Neocharismaticleadership.org and if you would like to discuss coaching or training for yourself or your team, you can contact Ghadah and Martin through the website. We look forward to your participation next week. Until then, goodbye