We are so delighted we got this chance to bring a Neocharismatic Leader on board from Africa. The world needs people like her and certainly, young leaders who strive for a noble goal. At the core of Neocharismatic leadership is the notion of altruism. Farida demonstrates that in its clearest sense. I hope this will bring light to your world at a time when we all need inspiration.
Listen to it on YouTube here
https://youtu.be/uX6dg2m9OQg
Listen to it in your favorite app on your smart device
http://www.neocharismaticleadership.org/podcast-en
For the book
http://www.neocharismaticleadership.org/ncl-book/
We are so delighted we got this chance to bring a Neocharismatic Leader on board from Africa. The world needs people like her and certainly, young leaders who strive for a noble goal. At the core of Neocharismatic leadership is the notion of altruism. Farida demonstrates that in its clearest sense. I hope this will bring light to your world at a time when we all need inspiration.
Listen to it on YouTube here
https://youtu.be/uX6dg2m9OQg
Listen to it in your favorite app on your smart device
http://www.neocharismaticleadership.org/podcast-en
For the book
http://www.neocharismaticleadership.org/ncl-book/
Welcome to this podcast series on Neocharismatic leadership with author, leadership expert and coach Dr. Ghadah Angawi. And executive leader Martin Hedley, where they will both explore the recently published book, Neocharismatic leadership and the coaching topics it covers.
Martin Hedley:Welcome back, everybody to our latest interview in the neocharismatic leadership podcast series. Ghadah we'll introduce our guest in a moment. But I want to say that we've been very fortunate to find this individual who's extremely busy and is quite an influence in Africa. So I'm sure you're going to really enjoy hearing what we have to say. So Ghadah Welcome.
Ghadah Angawi:Welcome, everybody to this episode, where we have a very special neocharismatic leader guest from Nairobi, Kenya, Farida Bulhan-Aliwa is the East Africa director for Practical Action, an innovative international organisation putting ingenious ideas to work so people in poverty can change their world. Farida oversees the organization's work in four countries in the region and across four offices. She has an academic background in international human rights law, postgraduate studies in sustainable development and poverty reduction and brings over 15 years of experience working in Sub Saharan Africa, across development and humanitarian context. She worked with organisations like the United Nations and save the children. Farida has held management and leadership positions at national, regional and global level. She is passionate about building inclusive and equitable societies, and has worked on national, regional and global policies and programmes that advance human rights, specially the rights of women and girls. Welcome, and we are very happy to have you here.
Farida Bulhan-Aliwa:Thank you so much, the honour is really mine, I'm extremely, extremely happy to have had this opportunity, and at this time just to be able to join the podcast. So thank you for having me.
Martin Hedley:Great, welcome, Farida. So the first question that I want to get into is, it's quite a standard question of ours. But I want to give it a little background for the listeners before I ask it, and that is that, typically, we will be speaking with leaders who either work with big companies or big organisations where, they are dealing with people that have means people that have education, people that have a lot at their disposal. And a key part of our story is trying to reach those folks that don't have any of that, and trying to establish leadership in people in you know, rural villages, and in very difficult situations to try and help them improve their lives. So, when I asked this question, it's really important that we're looking for, what are the commonalities between leaders of people with means and leaders that work with people who don't? So, there's a sequence of past circumstances that has made you who you are, would you tell us how you became a leader?
Farida Bulhan-Aliwa:Thank you, Martin. Such a simple question, but can be so complex in trying to find a response. But you're absolutely right, I think I have to reflect and look at my own journey. And what led me to this position when we start to think about the environment that's needed to just enable people towards leadership positions. And my reflection is really in terms of how difficult that has been in situations and environments that have not necessarily opened doors for me. But I've had to challenge them myself. And that reflects on a lot of environments that I'm working in, where people have no opportunity or limited opportunity to influence and affect decisions that really are about them. And so I reflect on being a very young, very energetic, very inspired woman, looking to make a difference. I myself was merely a child when I was given the opportunity to take part in a research on violence against children. And it was definitely one of the most striking experiences in my life. First of all, just thinking that we had so many problems, and the solutions just didn't seem to address them. And that to me, inspired me to work in this field, inspired me to understand human rights, to understand systems to change them. And for the past 15 years, I've been working towards that. And understanding the lack of opportunity was part of that journey for me, and understanding the problems and looking at solutions that would address those problems is what has driven me to who I am today.
Martin Hedley:Okay, that is fantastic, because that's very different view of what drove you. I mean, clearly, you're experiencing seeing trauma or children in trauma, is what motivated you, which is rather interesting. And so while that contributed to your leadership skills, who stood behind you?
Farida Bulhan-Aliwa:That, to me is a fantastic question. Because when I reflect on it now, if it hadn't been for different people in different positions, and I have to say, very strong women in different positions in my career, opening up opportunities for me, sometimes even believing in me, that I could actually carry out certain roles, I don't think that I would have had those opportunities, or I would have definitely had to fight a little bit harder for those opportunities than I have today. And so in that environment, I found people who identified certain things in me, who nurtured certain qualities in me, and definitely gave me the opportunity to try, so a little bit of risk taking as well in my career. And I remember the first leadership position that I had, I was I don't think I, I was 25 years yet, I might have been 23 or 24. And I was offered a programme director position. And it was one of the experiences that still stays at the back of my mind, because I remember this announcement being made that, Farida is going to be the new programme director. And I actually had someone resign on the day and walk out of the room and said, No, I'm not, there's no way this young woman can do this job. And just just in that position, I had to learn. I had to learn how to react, I had to learn how to define myself as a leader, how to understand the role, but also what success would look like. And just like that, that reaction actually provided the drive for me. And I think I've always taken it in my stride. And I really thank the people at that moment who gave me that opportunity, because I definitely did not think that I was ready for a leadership position of that magnitude. But it definitely helped me build the necessary skills I have. I definitely made mistakes, hopefully learned from them. But importantly, it definitely catalysed a lot of other opportunities into leadership, learning, how to manage people, how to manage organisations, how to identify opportunity, but also just manage the entire stress that comes with leadership, especially at a young age. For me.
Ghadah Angawi:This is amazing because for me, as a leadership expert, I'm really touched by the idea of putting a young person in a leadership position, and asking them to lead at an early age, which is a risk in itself for your leaders. It's a risk for you to take as a young person, and also having to face and confront, someone giving you that harsh remark that they're not going to be under your leadership, you're much younger than they are. But it tells me so much about what leadership is about, that our young people should be given the opportunities they are when they show up that they they can lead and the confidence that you were given. This is so courageous, from you to accept as well, this position, although you could say no, no, no, that's not my goal yet. I still have few years to go before I could do that. I congratulate you for that. And we learn so much as leadership experts on how to grow young leaders. And that really leads me to the next question. How do you define leadership?
Farida Bulhan-Aliwa:You know, I've been asked that question so many times and Because I've learned a lot of my leadership from experience, I've just told you almost being thrown, thrown into the position. And obviously, I reflect on it in that it was potential that people saw in me. And it's definitely what I've taken into how I even define leadership, how leadership to me is about creating those spaces, it's about inspiring it's about nurturing. But it's also about being able to, to manage different situations, manage complex situations. And that, to me means that leadership is actually a little bit of everything. But importantly, just how ability to be able to inspire and set vision, but also to carry people along with that to understand different environments, and be able to then influence a lot of those spaces. And I can definitely say it's still a journey that I'm on. And I take every day as that learning experience. And so I have a few years under my belt, in terms of learning what that leadership experiences is.
Ghadah Angawi:I love the idea of understanding the context and the environment. How do you do that with people?
Farida Bulhan-Aliwa:One of the things that I've learned in my career is the importance of reflection, the importance of also that leadership requires a little bit of taking the backseat, and understanding that space, picking up on on whether it's people or ideas or especially in our world, innovation and solution. So it's been able to really identify with the space that you're in, and then harness and nurture that into where we want to go. And I don't think there's there might be that working formula. For me, it's about being adaptable, and being agile enough to come into a space, understand the space, and then apply myself and who i know I am to that space.
Ghadah Angawi:So you take a lot of time and listening and understanding, assessing the environment internally and externally taking it in. And that's exactly the first role of a neocharismatic leadership. And you mentioned as well involving people in that.
Farida Bulhan-Aliwa:Yes, yes, absolutely. And I think that has been an important part of my own journey as a leader, just from my example of having, of walking into a room and in most cases, people prejudging me, I'm just lucky that my grey hair is starting to set in but, you know, for most of that started my career, I it would have been the same response, who's this young person, who's this young woman, what could she potentially bring. And so being able to sit back reflect, identify those opportunities, set that vision that people are looking for, because that that expectation is that as a leader, you're coming with something that you're bringing something, you're influencing change in whatever space that is, that requires some real consistency in how I have approached different situations, but at the same time, understanding who's around the table and who I'm working with. And when we set that vision, it's about what, how everyone can resonate with a vision, and how each and everyone is contributing to realising that vision. And that, to me means success. I remember a good example is when I started my current role as regional director for Practical Action. And it wasn't a necessarily easy position to come into. It was also a very new space, a lot of new people and a lot of new faces, and a lot of expectation. And I remember telling our CEO at the end of the first year, when he was reflecting on, we were both reflecting on successes and challenges in my first year. And he asked me, he said, what would you identify as your biggest success, and I said that no one willingly resigned from the organisation, I was able to keep them there to believe in an almost radical change that I was proposing. And to me that was my indicator of success, that I had a very lean team but a dedicated team that were willing to put in the work, that had bought into the vision and thinking about we're almost five years from that time, we're in a much more comfortable space and the same dedicated team who have grown with me in that journey,
Martin Hedley:Goodness me. It's just amazing to me to think about Ghadah, as we go on with t e other podcasts, to think about what it took for the peopl that have appointed Farida into that leadership position at th t age, I mean, we probably ne d to delve into what was in thei minds, because that was indeed ure leadership. But when you lo k at the United Nations enor ous organisation, you loo at, say, the children, again, another enormous organisation k own worldwide, and you ave experts that have been st dying poverty, and, you know, l ck of access to health care, tea hing, whatever it is. And they o viously consider themselves exp rts, and they probably do now, an incredible amount aca emically about the subject, a d yet somebody at the age f 24, can actually come in and ead. So it really shows the, h w can I say, the dividing li e that, it's not absolute kno ledge that makes you a lead
Farida Bulhan-Aliwa:The one's that stayed, I think it's still r, the skills that you had, o viously, you didn't have 30 or 4 years worth of experience. An I find that to be, I find t at to be really encouraging and inspiring. So thanks for shari g that with us. When you wor with experts that have been round for 30 or 40 years, an you're young, you come in and you want to lead, you want to ma e change, how do you deal with those people, the ones that did't resign, the ones that staye okay. about focusing on three things. Obviously, that clarifying expectations both ways is important. You know, what they
Ghadah Angawi:Yeah, amazing. Since we're talking about the would expect from me, but also linking that, or de-linking i almost to the position, right what we typically know what w typically see, as a leader, think that's where th disruption is, when when I wal into that space or in I start i that space. So being able t almost circle that back to t the expectations of the role, o that leader is important, bu also being able to have tha dialogue. And that appreciation as I said, in terms of that w are both people, and recognisin that what they're bringing, ca contribute to that shared ision is important. But for me, it's always about dialogu, it's always been able to unde stand people to be able to app eciate what they're bringing, s that hopefully it's both ways a d that they can appreciate hat I'm bringing. And it's no easy. It's not that simple. I t ink I've oversimplif ed that. And just from experi nce, you're always going t have people as part of any team that would have very, very strong opinions or would hav divergent opinions. And for me, I think leadership, what've learned, but what I know, and that's also important is h w we channel that energy, I tend to call it even energy, because think opinions is what makes s different. If we can channel t at towards a common purpose, y u know, has always been my wo king formula. I am also very pinionated and I can also chall nge as I've done in different s aces, it's probably why I've got this far. But at the same ime, it's how we just funnel th t, how we channel it into that ommon space, how we build to ether. And I've really, you k ow, maybe because I had that e perience early on, I've also lea ned to almost expected but al o how to manage it. And I've b en pleasantly surprised then, h w almost easier it has become ecause I also model or I al o put forward the type of of te m and people and culture that I want in a space. And for me th t is what has been able t to lead to success in very dif erent spaces. challenging part of your leadership, would you like to share an experience where you felt that you had to challenge the status quo in the decision, some people were there and some people weren't, but at the same time you managed it to be nice to add that because that's really the third role of neocharismatic leadership in the first stage, we've already touched upon the two roles, the first two roles, assessing the environment, sensing people's needs. And now we are challenging the status quo, which is in the stage one of the search for opportunity in transforming any organisation and context.
Farida Bulhan-Aliwa:Absolutely, without giving too much away, I think they've been very, very many spaces where I have also felt that I've come across, or I've challenged, and sometimes I get the reflection that I've challenged too much. But I definitely think to bring about change. I think we have to, we have to constantly challenge we have to constantly ask ourselves questions around, especially in our sector, what we're doing, how we're doing it, you know, are we really bringing about change? Those are important and fundamental questions that we ask ourselves, as we carry out our work, which might be slightly different to the corporate world. But when you're in the social, especially justice, space, those are fundamental questions. And I found my myself in different organisations, being that force of challenge, asking ourselves, you know, what are we doing? How are we doing it? Are we really making an impact, and that hasn't been received, sometimes as positively as I would have liked. I felt in one instance where a senior colleague of mine felt personally challenged by my approach, maybe he felt that I was being a bit too disruptive. And I had to reflect as well, I had to, in that situation, really assess whether this was me as an individual, or I really saw myself as contributing to changing that organisation, to be better, to be forward looking, to be more inclusive, which are very important values, to me as a person. And it did become, it did feel at that time, that it was a personal opinion. And I was challenging another colleague, but also made me reflect that I needed to also address that, that there's the organisation, but we're also people, and I needed to be I needed to create a space where I was clarifying that it wasn't, and that decisions that we make as individuals can also influence who we are as an organisation, or a company or an entity. And that singular contribution is what we are giving to the whole. So I know, it's not a particular example of challenge, but it's definitely something that I've come across when when I'm looking at building myself as a leader, but also influencing change.
Ghadah Angawi:Yes. So there's on one hand, coming into the situation, challenging the person because of a personal need for challenge. And there is, on the other hand, the need to challenge because of the greater good, that the benefit of the whole organisation. And you need to pull back to reflect whether this is coming from this or that and how can you consolidate? That is great to hear. Because obviously, with altourism, being at the base of neocharismatic leadership, one need to go back to their inner core and reflect on their thoughts and emotions and how does it sit with their intentions.
Martin Hedley:Yes, thanks for bringing out the idea of challenging people as well. Farida because what I've noticed over the years is, there are times where people are ready to be challenged and times that they are not. And of course, if you have a large team, everybody's in a different part of that scale at any one time. So it's almost like you're constantly moving the leavers forward and backwards because, you know, this person isn't ready right now, but this person, I can give them a real challenge. So, knowing that we have to do that. Is there a time where you actually challenge somebody and it turned out to be the wrong time?
Farida Bulhan-Aliwa:Yeah. Absolutely. I remember, you know, probably building off my own experience and, and feeling that, you know, creating that space for opportunities, so important and so when I'm working with people, I'm constantly thinking about conversations and encouraging them around growth and looking for opportunity. I remember having pushback once. And it was an interesting conversation because I had one of my team members come back and actually said, I don't think I'm ready for this. Or I would like to focus on this one thing that I'm doing, and I feel that this is too much of a stretch. And again, a point of reflection for me, because I had to realise that, my own journey probably has been exasperated by the fact that I clamp on to opportunity I am excited by challenge. So when I see it, I go for it. But that's not everyone. And it really understanding that we're different people. And so we would have a different response to new situations and how we adapt to new situations was an important realisation for me. So I appreciated the feedback I definitely did. And I actually had to pull back what my intention was for this person to stretch into a role, because they fought for not, you know, for failure, for fear for failure they tried. But they actually reached this point where they were able to come back to me and say, I think it's a little bit too much. And I'm not ready for for such a stretch. So I actually had to reflect on that and accept that as well. And look at reworking what we had planned. And you know, where I thought that this person could move it to, and also make that more of a conversation. I guess I was coming off as being too suggestive. But really making it more of a conversation, especially when it comes to managing people or looking at growth or potential, and all the good things that we would identify in people, but also realising that it needs to be a conversation about where they are as well, in that journey.
Ghadah Angawi:Yeah, and it seems to me that you come across as an unconventional leader who takes risks, not only with opportunities in the context, but as well opportunities with people so that you want to grow them into a better version of themselves. And I'm wondering now that we are in people management and people inspiration, motivation, what would How would you define your best approach to motivating people and encouraging them?
Farida Bulhan-Aliwa:I think it's linked to how well that strategic leadership is as well. Working on creating that vision, which not only inspires, but I believe, motivates as well. Because if we can work towards that same vision, then I believe that we're all waking up with the same motivation to come to the workspace. But then I think it would be really important then to understand the individual, to understand what they're contributing to that, to contribute to success, what success looks like. And with that, be able to work with them on understanding their own strengths. There's always room for improvement, or betterment. And so not necessarily looking at them as weaknesses, but definitely areas of growth. And that does also take some modelling. It does take working with people, I don't think I've ever worked on top of anyone, but when it comes to decision making, that's a totally different context. But it definitely means, collaborating with people and working with them on a growth strategy at an individual level as well.
Martin Hedley:In a traditional world, if you read a lot of leadership books, they're written by people that have run big organisations. So typically, they'll talk about all of the key topics, would you be revenue and profit and product and all of that, right? Which is not relevant in your world at all. And probably thank goodness it isn't because it's a wonderful balance. But one thing that all leaders no matter what they're doing, come across is, once in a while you're going to get a decision which tests you ethically. And the difference between neocharismatic leadership and and a more traditional view is that it's the ethics and the altruism of the leader that encourages the followers, fundamentally. So, how do you approach ethical decisions? And have you ever had to face a very difficult ethical decision that you could perhaps talk to us about?
Farida Bulhan-Aliwa:Yeah, absolutely. I think it's one of the things that, as you're saying, we might have the perfect strategy, we might work and, you know, develop perfect teams. And you know, we might not talk about revenue, we actually do because it's income is necessary now world. But at that output level, it looks a bit different. It looks, it looks a bit different. But at the same time, you know, we're still we're still people, we're still people running organisations, we're still people who are trying to make a difference. And it doesn't mean that we're alright, it doesn't mean that we have the right answers. And unfortunately, sometimes we have to go through experiences, to understand what's right and what's wrong. And I think for me, you're absolutely right, Martin, it's what we model. And there have been situations myself that I haven't made the right decision. And no matter how calculated, I would understand risk and measure risk, it's still the same in our world, we try to mitigate all sorts of risks, understand our context, to the best that we can. Sometimes it just, you know, situations turnout in different ways that you would never anticipate, I think, for me, the most important things out of that is what you take away from that situation. As a leader, I've had to be in positions where I've had to acknowledge that I haven't made the right decision. And importantly, be in a position to understand what have I taken from that? And what do we want to take? What do we want to take as an organisation forward, but if I have to think of a particular example, where I feel like I was, I was slightly pushed, and I felt that this one might be testing me a little bit. And, it was a situation where we had, we had other people, we work with partners, we work with different stakeholders in the work that we do. And, in looking at some of our decision making, we hadn't made the right decisions. And I felt the pressure on where I was in the scheme of things. Did I have a power? Because sometimes it's about power, right? Did I have the power to actually stand up and say, I think we made a mistake. And if we don't act, now, we might be making a bigger mistake. And reflecting on it, I actually felt that it was my position to say something. And when I did, I was challenged, because obviously, this was a scheme of decisions that were made by a number of people in a very big and complex environment. And it would have repercussions, reputation, financial, others that we would just consider as risk. And so the decision to either keep quiet, or stand up for something that I truly believed had gone wrong, but not necessarily just that it had gone wrong, that I felt that we could, we could turn it around. And that to me, was the focus that appreciating that things go wrong, but also being in a position that we could turn it around, we could do better, we could, not necessarily correct it, but make sure that it doesn't happen again. And so that was where my my position of influence was coming from. I remember some butterflies in my stomach moments where I had to stand up with donors and board members and, you know, really be able to justify my action. And it made me feel like this was more about me than the collective. And eventually, we were able to solve it. Eventually, we were able to learn from it. And importantly for me, it set some some strong values. That of course guide how I work today in terms of just being able to identify what is also wrong and right in a situation and also be able to just model it as much as possible. Also recognising that I'm human, and that I'm not perfect, and just as much as I could do to make sure that we're really, building around values as well.
Martin Hedley:Excellent. There is no perfect leader and how did the people that work for your with you in your teams? How do they respond to you when they know that you've, If they know I mean, I'm assuming that they know that you stood up to say something was wrong. How did they feel working with you afterwards?
Farida Bulhan-Aliwa:I think at the beginning, like a natural reaction, a lot of people were actually scared. And because there was an immediate reaction to place blame, which, as a leader, I've tried very hard to learn from that situation in terms of where should the focus be. And if we focus a lot on blame, which iPhone, do we actually get to that point of solution. But being more solution orientated meant that we would, we would circle back to who did what and why and what went wrong, but being able to focus on that solution, to be able to understand that, if we didn't act, we could have a worse off situation than we had now. At a point in time I did feel that I was standing alone, and that a lot more people were watching, then contributing to the situation. But my level of conviction kept me going. And as much as I could communicate what was happening and where I saw the real solution, I did get a lot of support, then. And obviously, when we finally solved the situation, there was a lot more confidence in me. And I think that's part of leadership, it's those situations where people will turn to you and and see what you did in that situation. That unfortunately, always keeps us in the spotlight as leaders, because everyone wants to very quick to to pass an opinion. But really, it's about how you manage that situation, how you problem solve how you find that solution. And at the end of it, an important part was how I communicated back to my team and said, look yes, there was a few things we did wrong. This is how we we decided to work on it. And definitely, learning from that, where we wanted to go, there were things we needed to improve. There were things that we needed to definitely work better on. And this is where I wanted us to go.
Ghadah Angawi:Yeah, I really admire your self awareness, your ability to reflect within yourself, on what's right and what's wrong. I think this is one of the prerequisites for neocharismatic leadership. There is a lot of room for expansion. When you reflect on an experience, you learn from that experience, and your space where you reflect with yourself expands more. This is really what we're looking for in leaders. One last question. I know we're beginning to run out of time, is what would be a great advice to give to young leaders?
Farida Bulhan-Aliwa:I read a beautiful quote the other day, that it's one of the simplest questions, but I think there was someone who said, the most cliche is to tell young people to believe in themselves, I still think that's really important. I really think that's important. But at the same time, my advice would be that it's young people to make opportunities for themselves. That's important. And sometimes they don't come as easy as we would like, and we would think, but at the same time, is to not doubt themselves to believe in themselves. Absolutely. To spend time in understanding and and developing themselves because that's an important part of success. But it's also to be able to just craft their own spaces. I remember a talk that I had a couple of years ago, I think just before COVID and I was talking to some young girls, about social entrepreneurship. And this is because especially in Africa, we have a very, very young population and large number of young people graduating from universities and colleges, which is excellent. But we have a problem with how much of them are being absorbed into formal employment. And so this talk that I was having with them was about how much opportunities in entrepreneurship and they didn't look at me like Really? Because that structure or the system is built around, I need to graduate and I need to get a job when it was about could they find opportunities for themselves to build themselves as entrepreneurs and really look at what is that vision for themselves at an individual level. And so I would still want to support young people to take opportunity, to find that opportunity for themselves to look at what needs to change for that opportunity to come their way. And definitely like looking at, a night sky that might have a billion skies up there. I think it also takes the person looking to find the one that's shining the brightest. So it's about changing the way that we definitely look at people and how we appreciate the diversity that we have.
Martin Hedley:Yes, Farida, you ave given us and our listeners tremendous amount to think bout, from a totally different erspective than we've had efore. So first of all, thank
Introducer:Ghadah and Martin, hope you enjoyed this episode. ou very much for your making ime to speak with us in your ery busy schedule. And also hank you for the for the work hat you do and for the people hat you do it for. I think that hat's absolutely outstanding. I hink that you Ghadah and I w ll be following your career, act ally, for the next few years. And I wouldn't be surprised if we're talking to you again. But thank you so much. So on beh lf of Ghadah myself, Farida, tha k you very much. And to our list ners. Thank you very much for j ining and we look forward to ou next episode. Tak There was more information available at Neocharismaticleadership.org and if you would like to discuss coaching or training for yourself or your team, you can contact Ghadah and Martin through the website. We look forward to your participation next week. Until then, goodbye