Ghadah puts this in context by referring to the original research on Neocharismatic Leadership and why she chose her own categories when discussing this role. She then speaks about examples of unconventionality and what it requires from a leader to get them right. She mentions the role of intuition and being present at the moment to facilitate the emergence of unconventionality. Martin adds his own understanding and experiences as he always does spice it with his challenge to the listeners at the end to continue to bring in examples to enrich the episodes.
Ghadah puts this in context by referring to the original research on Neocharismatic Leadership and why she chose her own categories when discussing this role. She then speaks about examples of unconventionality and what it requires from a leader to get them right. She mentions the role of intuition and being present at the moment to facilitate the emergence of unconventionality. Martin adds his own understanding and experiences as he always does spice it with his challenge to the listeners at the end to continue to bring in examples to enrich the episodes.
Welcome to this podcast series on Neocharismatic leadership with author, leadership expert and coach Dr. Ghadah Angawi. And executive leader Martin Hedley, where they will both explore the recently published book, Neocharismatic leadership and the coaching topics it covers.
Ghadah Angawi:Welcome again to another episode where we discuss more neocharismatic roles on an organisational level. Our last two episodes, we covered roll six of taking personal risks. And today, we will focus on role seven and stage three of devising means to achieve the vision, which is unconventional leadership behaviour. What does it mean, how does a leader act this role, and where? Why is it important, or what does it do in the process of transformation? And finally, how can we do that in an ethical moral way? Remember, we are in a leadership journey to transform an organisation or a specific part of it on a larger scale. And we are discussing this only from a leadership behaviour perspective. Although we do cover other details in the context,
Martin Hedley:Ghadah, there's so much information coming out here that much of it is going to be different people are not expecting it. When I first looked at the issue of unconventional behaviour with leaders, I got a lot of pushback from some of the people I was mentoring because, you know, they said "Oh, no, the leader must be stable, the leader must be consistent and that's how they build integrity, and we want to follow them." And I said that is true. But of course, if you do that you end up after a short period of time with the status quo and leadership doesn't like status quo. So how do you avoid getting stale? So I would be really interested to find out what your definition of unconventionality means, in terms of leadership.
Ghadah Angawi:Yeah, let me go back to Congo and kanungo original research and book charismatic leadership, which was published in 1998, where they laid the ground for neocharismatic theory and crafted the model I have based my research on, the two scholars had the two roles merged together, they call it taking personal risks and unconventional behaviour, I guess for them it all related to acting in a surprising way to their followers. But digging deeper, as I did my research, I found that the two are different, nevertheless related, mainly because taking personal risks does sound very unconventional, when it is least expected of leaders, especially that the time when this research was done in the early 90s, especially that the business context was very traditional in many ways that if a leader came out of the blue and broke a rule or two, it became the talk of the town. Thus we are labelled unconventional, or the leaders are labelled unconventional, if not defying the norms. And when they are unconventional, they look as if they are taking personal risks. Because they are, they are exposing themselves to criticism and maybe in extreme cases, loss of their leadership position and the job in general, as in one of my research cases, one leader has encountered this incident well nowadays it's more of the usual to stand your position and be brave and expression in expressing what you think no matter what your leadership rank in the organisation. So there is a connection, as we explained earlier, between challenging the status quo and taking personal risks challenging the status quo, which is rule number three, the first stage and taking personal risks, which is rule number six in this stage devising means to achieve the vision, but unconventionality has an enhanced further meaning to it. In the world of millennials, I'd say because it's a new context right, which we are going to explore today. I found that taking personal risk may seem unconventional. After a while people get used to a leader being a risk taking person and it ceases to surprise them anymore. Thus, it is important to be unconventional regardless of being risk taking or not, as you the leader continue to surprise your followers through your daily decisions and actions. So this is how I see it unconventional is defined in the literature as a leaders behaviour that is perceived as normal and surprising by followers. The perception of the behaviour as novel alludes to the perception that the behaviour is original, authentic or new. This surprising component captures the uninspected element of unconventional behaviour leading to a paradigm shift or change of perspective from the follower side. This is really good because first, the leader attracts the followers attention in the moment and role models what needs to be done the right thing to do, regardless of the hierarchy or the power context. Or the rules, if I may say, which I hate to break, but sometimes breaking rules that are not written in stone, they're just rules. They're there to facilitate the organisational effectiveness and success. But if the situation demands that the leader acts unconventionally breaking specific rules, not ethical rules, definitely, that is where unconventionality happens. So what happens with the followers, they perceive the new role model, they learn, and they are transformed in how they problem solve, how effective they are, and how they communicate with each other in the moment. So nowadays, we live in a vocal world. And there isn't enough time sometimes to strategize in the moment what needs to be done or follow the rules. Sometimes a leader needs to be very unconventional. So this is how I see it.
Martin Hedley:Okay, that's really interesting, because as I was preparing for this, I thought about several examples, not only from my own leadership style, but also some of the other major leaders that I've worked with and worked under for many years. And I found some of the reasons for unconventional behaviour, usually fit into two areas, one was a sort of procedural reason for doing it. And another one was a more human reason. But if I go through some examples with you, I think this will help bring the subject to life for our listeners, in practical terms. So the first one, the first approach that I've seen to unconventional leadership is, is simply surprising somebody so you're intrigued by the idea they come up with. So let's say for example, you're the leader of a division or even the leader of a company, and somebody on your team comes up with a very unconventional idea. And they're thinking, you know, the boss isn't going to go for this. But in fact, the boss just gives it five minutes thought and says, Well, yeah, absolutely give it a shot. Let's see what happens. And it's sort of that unexpected ness about that particular kind of conversation that empowers people tremendously and they say, "oh, my goodness, you know, the boss really, really wants me to do this. Okay!". And what happens now is the adrenaline flows and the creative juices flow. And this is where something completely new comes up. Would that be a great example of unconventional behaviour?
Ghadah Angawi:Yes, exactly. And I was thinking about the same examples, because people don't expect leaders to engage that quickly. The traditional ways, you put a proposal in, you give it a thought, it goes away for a few days. And then the leader comes with a response of like, we'll explore this further, this is how things are usually done conventionally. But unconventionality requires a leader to be agile, to be innovative, to be responsive, and to be communicative, In the moment. That doesn't mean this decisions are not well researched, or well assessed. It just means they're able to give themselves in the moment to be there for their followers and engage with them. True. Very true. Thank you for the example.
Martin Hedley:Okay, so in fact, there was one very specific case I can remember. And this is where somebody had made what we all thought was a bit of a crazy suggestion. And the boss did say"Yes, okay, go ahead and do that." And afterwards, we were concerned, and we said, well, we were pretty certain this isn't going to work. You know, the analysis says it won't work and the boss said, "Yes, I agree with you. I don't think it will. But, it's a great learning opportunity for this individual, because they're now going to learn a lot about the whole issue and the whole project, and they'll probably come back with their own understanding of why it won't work." He said, "But then again, they might come back with a solution." We can never tell.
Ghadah Angawi:Yeah, right. You never know. Give it a go and try. One of the examples that I have also witnessed is the leader is not expected to behave in specific way say that travelling together. And the leader is expected to be in first class, but he surprises everybody else in his senior leadership team and takes the economy class where he is with other employees who are not in the leadership team. And that in itself sends a message to the rest of the team, that the leader is willing to go towards being humbled, towards engaging with other people, other employees. Having shoulder to shoulder training courses with ordinary people from the organisation, was one thing I witnessed in another organisation. So engaging in activities that you're not expected to engage in as a leader, showing empathy, stopping in the corridor and greeting someone, you know, and having a conversation with them, this kind of gestures, they're very unconventional in my opinion. Shortening a meeting, because you wanted the leadership team to engage together, rather than just going through the formal business to business, asking them to engage in a specific activity that helps them just to talk to each other as human beings where you stop the conventionality of daily work.
Martin Hedley:Yes, the spontaneity as I like to call it is a very strong aspect of an unconventional leader when you sit in a meeting, and obviously, you're listening to what's going on in the meeting, but you're reading the body language. And you see everybody in the meeting is somewhat slumped and a little little reserved, and you don't really think that everybody's bringing their full game into play. So that's when you do want to shake things up and shaking anything up, there's always a risk, right. But in many cases, the reward is going to be much better than not trying in the first place. So I can think of situations where as you say, a meeting has been shortened in order to do something fun at the end, which was completely unexpected. I've seen several leaders do that. But possibly the most significant way I've seen it is when a leader has simply taken the entire team and said, "I'm going to shake up the entire company, or I'm going to shake up the entire industry", all of a sudden, everybody is suddenly on the edge of their seat going, oh my goodness, what's coming next. And it's just the idea that you've already become unconventional, that you've given everybody permission to become excited again. Okay, so then you announce what it is you're going to do. And literally you watch the engagement after that. And so sometimes just the idea of shaking something up can be really good to keep people on top of their game, to keep all of the ideas totally fresh and creative. and again, avoid slipping into that status quo, which for any organisation is his death. If you let it go too long.
Ghadah Angawi:Yeah, we can't really tell every leader what they're supposed to be doing to become unconventional. But we can ask you specific questions that helps you examine your context, because what is conventional in one context might not be conventional, in another context, and this is where things can become different. I think this is where coaching is important. Coaching the unconventionality. The unconventionality itself requires you to be unconventional in the ways you think, like you will think out of the box, you think creatively. And it means that I as a coach, I can challenge you, and see where this is going and help you come up with ideas in specific moments in your, you know, situation where you're facing the challenges that will help you break that cycle, vicious cycle.
Martin Hedley:Yes, very good. I like to coach people and say, it's like you have a toolbox of unconventional activities, and you carry it around with you, just in case, so you might carry it around in your car, or you might carry it around in your briefcase, whatever it happens to be. And then when you see a situation where you can use one of these tools, it's great to use it, but you cannot overuse it. Because of course when you start creating unconventional behaviour and activities constantly, then you're going to end up with a sort of anarchic situation in the organisation, and that's going to be destructive. So a funny exchange happened with with me and one of my mentors many years ago, and I said, Okay, so in a big organisation, you know, when I was talking maybe 100,000 people working in the organisation, in a big organisation, if you're unconventional, 10% of the time, and conventional 90% of the time, you're not really going to disturb anything, but that 10% should be enough to keep the juices flowing. And she said, Yes, that's true. And I said, Okay, so if you're an entrepreneurial organisation, your very existence is trying to shake something up. Maybe it's an industry, for example. So perhaps 70% is unconventional and only 30% is stable. And then she made a joke and she said, Yes, wouldn't it be nice if we could have a chart where you could put the size of the company on one hand, and it will tell you what percentage conventionality you have and what percentage unconventional and we did laugh about it. But in my work as a coach, I've realised that wasn't such a crazy idea. Because if you understand it's a sliding scale, and there is never an absolute position on that scale. You've got to think of the context of your organisation and the readiness of your people to accept something like this and you can use unconventional techniques either to, as I say, shake up the entire organisation or simply to show your approachability to maybe make a joke that's that you don't normally do. Or, as I saw one, leader do, he came to the annual conference and the first thing he did was he danced an Irish jig in front of about 1000 staff. And that was just so unconventional, they loved it, they absolutely loved it. And of course, again, they were then sitting on the edge of their chair to listen to this speech that followed. So this takes me into the human side of why you need to be unconventional, but you're not a robot as a leader, you know, yes, you're supposed to be consistent and give praise and all of the usual subjects, but you've got to show your human, especially a neocharismatic leader, you cannot be one unless you show your humanity, but also to be able to show a sense of fun, keeps the tension level down, and allows the individuals in the organisation to rise up, be more productive, more creative.
Ghadah Angawi:Yeah, I really love that part around showing your humanity. Because people look at leaders as idols, sometimes that they're, they always say and do the right thing. And they're highly respected. Nobody should object. This is like the traditional conventional view of person has spent years of their lives until they reach that leadership position. So they must know everything, and there must be right all the time. I think being unconventional and making mistakes in the process sometimes shows that you're human, you might make a judgement, but it might not be the right judgement. And you're willing to accept suggestions and ideas from different people at different levels of the organisation. So I really love that idea about humanity. And I think part of being unconventional as well as showing part of your private life in a way that shows how you're balanced between your physical, your mental, your intellectual, and this also gives a good example for others as they follow you. So a really good example here comes to my mind is when I was doing my PhD in my University Institute of Education, 11 years ago, I witnessed one of the department leaders, in his suit going into, the corridor, and I was sitting in the main hall, and then they came out with a cycling gear, full cycling gear, like really going on a race, and it was raining outside, you know how it is in London. And they just had their suit on their backpack, and they hopped on the bike, and they cycled home. And upon asking other peers, they said, Yeah, they always do that, cycle from home to work, and from work to home. And it really hit me since then, I've been cycling regularly. Personally, it's part of their private life was on display. And it was very unconventional, especially in higher education. So I hope that our listeners have got the digest of it.
Martin Hedley:Yes, indeed. What strikes me about that, though, is that if you're in a small entrepreneurial company, and obviously we'll get to that in our next episode, but if you're in a small entrepreneurial company, you're not surprised if the entire management team bikes to work. I mean, it's just, it's just the craziness of life, if you're running a company with 50,000, people, it would be considered an amazing surprise. So we as individuals, as followers also have this sort of expectation of our leaders to do certain things, and not to do certain things. So the fact that you do shake things up, I think, is great. It keeps people awake, and paying attention to what you're doing, if you're attempting a really tough change in any organisation. And it could be that you're generating it from the inside, or it could have been enforced upon you because of some big change or in the industry or government policy, for example, you've got to take people through that and the more you can relate to them on that human basis, they're still going to be attracted to look at you, because they want to see Oh, I wonder what's coming next. And keeping an attraction to the leader, provided it doesn't become sort of celebrity status is very, very powerful.
Ghadah Angawi:Yes, it is. I think it boils down to self awareness of a leader of what's the choice is in the moment, self awareness of how they are perceived, and what is required from them to show, so that their followers are influenced by them, and thus they influence the transformation of their organisations, from one state to another.
Martin Hedley:Indeed, I think it's extremely powerful.
Ghadah Angawi:Yeah. Thank you very much for being with me today, Martin, and next episode, we'll talk about what you've just mentioned, entrepreneurs. Looking forward to our next episode.
Martin Hedley:Yes, we'll see you next time. And thanks to all of our listeners. Bye bye.
Introducer:Ghadah and Martin, hope you enjoyed this episode. There is more information available at Neocharismaticleadership.org. And if you would like to discuss coaching or training for yourself or your team, you can contact Ghadah and Martin through the website. We look forward to your participation next week. Until then, goodbye