As we approach the end of 2021 both Ghadah and martin admit that the last two episodes were very unconventional and in fact planned unconventionality as they call it here. In this episode, they give more examples of the relationship between context and being unconventional and what that does to the followers, including the use of drama and movies in sparking your innovation and authenticity!
As we approach the end of 2021 both Ghadah and martin admit that the last two episodes were very unconventional and in fact planned unconventionality as they call it here. In this episode, they give more examples of the relationship between context and being unconventional and what that does to the followers, including the use of drama and movies in sparking your innovation and authenticity!
Welcome to this podcast series on Neocharismatic leadership with author, leadership expert and coach Dr. Ghadah Angawi. And executive leader Martin Hedley, where they will both explore the recently published book, Neocharismatic leadership and the coaching topics it covers.
Martin Hedley:Welcome back, Ghadah. And to all our listeners, thank you for joining us again, we're going to continue to talk about the unconventionality aspect of Neocharismatic leadership. And if you remember, in our last episode, we were talking about mainly how it manifests itself in larger organisations. But when you have a small organisation, and again, it doesn't matter whether it's a company, or whether it's a charity, or what have you, the very nature of what you're trying to do is unconventional many cases, you're bringing a new idea to market, you're bringing traditional ideas to an area where they are non traditional, and you're trying to create something new out of it. So when I mentioned the crazy tool, about depending on the size of your company, you can work out exactly how much stability and how much unconventionality you need. Remember, in the entrepreneurial model, we actually need the teams and the leader to be as unconventional as possible. But there are some very important caveats. That we need to know, specifically in terms of where that unconventionality manifests itself. Isn't that right, Ghadah?
Ghadah Angawi:Yeah, so I am thinking about several ways of displaying unconventionality in this context, the smaller organisation context, your own business context, social entrepreneurism. I'm thinking about the idea of your business as being unconventional, and how you situate it and make it stand out in the middle of many other unconventional businesses. So even though it is something you've spent time studying, doing your market research and planning for and starting it, you still have to make it stand out between other competitors. And this is one area of unconventionality. The other eight relates to you, because you are the starter of that business, you are the face of that business, you and that business or one entity. So how do you show as unconventional and surprising and novel and authentic, to the world, and I say to the world, because right now, your business is not in a small village where nobody else seeing it, it's mostly going to be online, it will lead to the speakers of your language, it will reach places where people even probably won't speak your language, but they will see your products. So how do you show up as a person in that space, as unconventional?
Martin Hedley:Yes, I'm glad you asked that. Because whatever we do these days, we seem to be doing it in a room full of mirrors, everybody can see anywhere in the world. So, if I'm creating an earth shattering new product, for example, that goes out on the internet, and everybody finds out very relatively quickly. But similarly, even if I'm working on this very small social enterprise, in a very rural part of the world, I'm still going to require perhaps donations from other parts of the world. So I'm still going to have to show them what's going on, so everything we do is in this room with mirrors. And the way I like to look at it, particularly when I first started coaching entrepreneurs, I want to find out exactly how much unconventionality they have actually applied, to understanding what human changes have to occur, for the new idea to be accepted. So we can be unconventional for the sake of it. And that's great. When you're coming up with ideas, you're coming up with something that's totally unique. And I don't just mean what the market is called the unique service proposition because usually that's just a slight tweak of what everybody else is doing. I'm talking about something radically new. Like when Steve Jobs came up with the idea of the Mac, for example, it turned out to be an incredible unconventional idea to make something very simple. So what I'm trying to find out is how much test to be done in the market. So go out there and give all of your crazy ideas to people test them out and see you know, how they react, in many cases and what people will typically tell you is, the more complicated you come out with explaining what you want to do, the less excited they get. So you keep sort of simplifying it and simplifying it until they get it when you look at a lot of the newer companies and this is particularly true on software. On the internet, many other companies have absolutely crazy names, which was virtually unheard of 30 years ago. But today, it seems like if your company doesn't have a crazy name is not even going to get any airtime in the Twitter sphere or the Facebook sphere if you like. So when an entrepreneur tells me that, you know, oh yes, I've come up with some really crazy ideas. And but we settled on this one here, because it seems to be the right mix between an unconventional idea going into a conventional world. And I think that is the crux of the matter, you have to realise you're going into a conventional world. And so your unconventional idea has got to slide in nicely, okay, so it means you've got to focus your team on being unconventional outside of the organisation, much of what we talked about in the last episode about big organisations as being unconventional inside the organisation. And there seems to be a tipping point with a very young company or a young organisation, if you take the unconventionality into the company and you embrace it too much, then again, you will very quickly get anarchy, people will lose focus. And of course, you do not have the financial backing, that a larger company or a larger organisation would have, and you have to succeed.
Ghadah Angawi:So it is important to plan your unconventionality and and it means you have a sequence of unconventional behaviours that gonna show at specific moments in the future, one after another, in order to surprise your audience. And it means the moment you say I have it all, you know, I have my business plan in place, I'm ready to launch that is very conventional, because there is no complete business plan. There is no launching time anymore. You are launching every moment you are displaying yourself out there, which means you display unconventionally, you get the feedback, you change, you evaluate yourself in that moment, you're not that deviating totally from what you're doing, because you have to keep focused, as you said, but it's built on how unconventional you're showing the outside world. I could relate this to influencers, why influencers are successful and have more followers because they're very unconventional. And I'm sure if we ask some influencer, how do you show up so unconventional? They say, Well, this is what I did in the beginning. And this is number two, and this is number three. So they do have a plan for their, for their unconventionality. And I think from a research perspective, as I observe people's behaviours, I think they're creative. They're not limited by the ideas. They're not limited by that what needs to happen next, and what should happen now. Because the moment you walk into the most assured, that's when you when you stop being creative. There is a very big correlation between conventionality and creativity. We said before new behaviour surprising, it means that you are surprising people, every time you show every time you speak to them.
Martin Hedley:You are and I want to go into this concept of planned unconventionality a little bit more because to most people, when you first hear it, it's an oxymoron, it makes no sense at all. But again, that's because we're taking a conventional view of it. But when you are the leader, you are more than just the doer, of course, you are the leader of the orchestra, you are conducting things. And therefore, it's like, I liken it with people that I'm coaching to, to them becoming an actor for a moment, you know, the first thing an actor will do is they will sense their audience. And you know, there may or may be the same play every single night that they're doing. But you know, some nights, the audience might come in and there's an angry mood other nights, it might be a tense mood, other nights might be a happy mood, you have to sense the mood of the audience and then apply any kind of unconventional behaviour to it in order to get a laugh, a reaction, a tear. You know, that's how an actor will work. And in some respects, as leaders, we are actors. So it again, just like the actor has this toolbox of unconventional things they can do to make that one show that one night just a little bit special is what we have to do as group leaders. And it's to know Okay, my team needs a bit of an uplift today. So I'm going to do something unconventional and I've got three or four things that I would typically do. Let's see what fits the mood. So while everybody else is talking ideas and business and market share and all of the other stuff, you're actually listening, but you're also half thinking, I really need to shake this up. I wonder what I can do, to point out that we're going down the wrong path or that we're just getting stuck and going around is circles.
Ghadah Angawi:Do you remember when we concluded the last episode with self awareness, the way you talk to yourself, the way you sense your own, perceive what's happening around you, and sense your own thoughts and emotions. This is where your novelty comes from. This is where your genius ideas, your authenticity, it just arrives when you tap into your own thoughts and emotions, and your intuition. Because intuition follows. So the emotional part of your self awareness, it provokes the ideas, it brings the solutions it creates. And if you allow enough creation in the moment, you will get that unconventionality just comes arrives.
Martin Hedley:Yes, there's another aspect that is a more practical aspect of this planned unconventionality. So one example I give is when I was in the global banking industry, okay, and I had employees all over the world, I was travelling a tremendous amount. So one of the things that I would do is I would actually make time or I would make space to sit and think so people said, Oh, you're travelling so much, you know, how do you keep up with that? It's like, Yes, okay, it was a slog to do all of the travelling, but there were times I used to just settle myself in a corner somewhere, or just relax in an aeroplane or something like that, and plan to think about the audience that I'm going to where are they at? What's the best intelligence that I have about them? And do I need to just simply turn up and say, Thank you, and everything's going very well? Or do I really need to shake up the status quo, in which case, what is the best way to do it, and of course, humour, if done well, can be a very good way of being unconventional. In a way comedians are constantly unconventional and so that's why they are comedians. That's why they're funny. So again, it goes back to this idea of protecting some time on your busy schedule, to actually think about whether you need to be unconventional, whether it's for just a quick joke, or whether it's three months of intense work to change the entire direction of your organisation that has to be thought through and planned. But it shows to the followers as if it was spontaneous.
Ghadah Angawi:So another example, based on what you've just mentioned, is our episode today and the previous one, we usually plan me and do what we are going to exactly say and how we're going to say it and the stories, like we organise ourselves, but this time, me and you decided that this is not going to happen this way, we are going to be very unconventional, we're just going to engage in the conversation, see where it takes us. This is exactly what we want everyone else to do, in their own context, is to be spontaneous, to be genuine, to be easygoing.
Martin Hedley:Yes we have to be able to coach that into individuals. And I find this is one of the most difficult areas of coaching because it doesn't follow a particular process, you can't really give it a model. You know, the all of the things that coaches all of the tools that coaches typically use to help people understand what they need to do don't really apply here. This is something that each individual has really got to internalise and think, you know, what level of unconventionality am I comfortable with. So if you are terrible at making jokes, then don't use humour to do it, right. If you're a terrible dancer, don't dance in front of the group. But you know, there are always things that you are good at, there are always things outside of work that you really enjoy. And when you do them people look at you say, Wow, that's a pro. Those are the kinds of things that you've got to think about and put into your toolbox and then think very carefully about when would I use this tool so that when the moment comes up, somewhere in the back of your brain, it goes, oh click, I've got a tool that I created for this. I'll use it right now, when you do it that way, 95% of the time, I think it works beautifully. And there's always going to be one situation where it falls over. But it doesn't matter. Because if people realise that you're human, and you're trying this, and then you make a mistake, well, what do they think?
Ghadah Angawi:I've seen some people on social media, they stutter, they make a mistake, and they apologise for the mistake and they continue without cutting that part, without editing it, and that shows their humanity their unconventionality. The other thing I wanted to ask you what is the role of we spoke about the role of a coach in your life as a leader. What is the role of your team in the unconventionality process?
Martin Hedley:That is probably one of the toughest questions because you don't particularly want your team to know that you have planned your unconventionality right? Now, of course, hopefully you're developing them too. So you are teaching them how to do this as well, I think that's important. But the team itself needs to give you the feedback that says, okay, the unconventionality is getting so serious, that we're totally confused from day to day, and we're not focusing or we're not achieving anything. That's great feedback, because it means you've got to pull the team back a little bit, you've got to, you've got to ratchet it down a little bit. On the other hand, if you get feedback from the team, which says, You know, I think we're stagnating or it's getting, you know, it's getting stale, the ideas are not fresh, then that's the trigger to tell you, you know, it's it's time to enliven it again,
Ghadah Angawi:Yeah, how about if one of your team members comes up with an idea for you to implement in the organisation, or outside? Would you take that as an unconventional idea that will help your business that will promote you?
Martin Hedley:Yes, my personal experience as a leader was when team members came up with that you never wanted to? Well, first of all, you never shut them down. Because an idea is just an idea. It's not good, bad or indifferent. Okay? It's not until it's evaluated anyway. So you should never shoot down an idea. But you know, if it sounds like it wouldn't take a lot of time. And it's not hugely risky, but it's got some intriguing plus sides to it, then why not? You know what, why not that that individual, whether they do it by themselves, or whether they form their own little team doesn't really matter, you know, let them run with it for a little bit, and let the company or the organisation learn from that experience, you know. I think that that's a great way you can encourage your direct reports. Or other people are in the organisation to develop the very skills that we're talking about here as well. And of course, as a leader, you've got to develop your people, as much as you have to develop yourself.
Ghadah Angawi:I'm thinking how we are also seeing in many movies and drowns these days, how to become unconventional. And maybe there are learnings in some of these, especially real life shows like documentaries, where you see real life, people act in an unconventional way and get results and the producers, they do highlight the lives of these people. So I encourage the listeners as well to think about that as a resource, because we're trying to help you find how to find your unconventionality in your own context. As I said before, we can't really tell you exactly how it works. But with a bit of creativity, and outside resources, and some coaching and with your team pitching in and helping, I think you will be able to show up as an unconventional leader.
Martin Hedley:I believe that's absolutely true. Because if you look at documentaries, in particular, it is the more unconventional presentation of an issue that tends to give a more interesting story. But I also advise by coachees that sometimes the documentary might be biassed, not necessarily on purpose, but it might be simply because there's certain information missing it's not a complete story. So use it as a model for how to get people to think differently. That's very good, you know, but, but don't follow the exact same techniques. Because typically the person writing that documentary or delivering the documentary has practised and practised and practised and you know, this has now become their, their brand if you like. So it to them is not unconventional, that's the only danger. But I think it's a great, basically free resource.
Ghadah Angawi:Yes, it's exactly the same when you seek an influencer in your field on social media. And you think, Oh, I'm gonna copy what they do exactly. You're going to their profile, you see their clips you you see what they write, but it doesn't work, because it's not coming from you. So remember the definition of unconventionality, is novelty, being genuine, authentic, and coming from the heart. And it's new, new because it's related to you. It's not related to anyone else.
Martin Hedley:And that's great. Now Ghadah it looks like we're going to be out of time and I have thoroughly enjoyed this unconventional approach to putting together a podcast. Hopefully our listeners have to and don't forget to send us any information or questions through the website so that we can address them on the podcast. Thank you, everybody.
Ghadah Angawi:Okay,
Martin Hedley:Bye Bye.
Ghadah Angawi:Goodbye.
Introducer:Ghadah and Martin, hope you enjoyed this episode. There is more information available at Neocharismaticleadership.org and if you would like to discuss coaching or training for yourself or your team, you can contact Ghadah and Martin through the website. We look forward to your participation next week. Until then, goodbye