The Water Table

#103 | Rapping About Drainage– A Water Table First!

• Jamie Duininck • Episode 103

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Jamie sits down with Dr. John McMaine with South Dakota State University Extension to talk about the importance of listening when solving problems in water management. Learn how both urban and rural water management issues are intertwined, why it really is all about relationships, and don’t miss the Water Table’s first rap about agricultural water management. This episode has it all!

Chapters & Episode Topics:
00:00   Today on the Water Table Podcast
00:24   Welcome Dr. John McMaine
01:12   All about the journey
01:50   Applying knowledge through extension
03:30   Back to Kentucky
04:20   Urban practices to an agricultural setting
05:41   Wood chip bioreactor vs. bioretention cell
07:00   It’s all about community
08:50   The takeaways
10:35   The perceived issue vs. the actual issue
12:00   Another podcast – Streamlines
16:00   Kentucky basketball
17:30   Let’s collaborate
19:00   Maladaptive vs. adaptive
20:30   Opportunities for solutions
21:40   Fun fact: Dr. McMaine raps

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Jamie Duininck (00:00):

Join me on The Water Table today as I interview John McMaine from South Dakota State University. We're talking water quality and water quantity, and how he has been involved through South Dakota State and transforming drainage. Welcome back to The Water Table podcast. Today, I have John McMaine with me. John is a PhD from Oklahoma State University, currently working at South Dakota State University, and we'll be moving on from there.

(00:35):

We're going to talk about that a little bit, but John uses and likes to share water management tools to better equip agricultural stakeholders with user-friendly practices to address challenges related to water quality and water quantity. Welcome to the podcast, John.

John McMaine (00:55):

Thank you so much, Jamie. It's a pleasure to be on.

Jamie Duininck (00:57):

Yeah. Tell me a little bit about you and kind of how you got to where you are today and at South Dakota State. I know you work with somebody fairly well-known in this industry, and Chris Hay. Just tell us a little bit about your journey.

John McMaine (01:13):

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm from Kentucky originally. I don't have a huge accent, but it may come out every once in a while. So did my undergrad and master's at University of Kentucky in Biosystems and Ag Engineering, Oklahoma State for PhD as you mentioned in the intro, for again, Biosystems and Ag Engineering, and within both of those experiences, in particularly, in my PhD, I had a lot of experience in Extension. For those listeners that don't know what Extension is, it's essentially the outreach arm of all the land-grant universities.

(01:45):

And so basically, my role as a PhD student, and now, at South Dakota State, is to take the research, the knowledge that we gain at the university, and make sure that can be applied by anyone that needs it across the state or the region. And so I really feel like I found a passion within Extension because I enjoy research a lot, but I like research that I'm able to connect to people and to connect to actually solving problems. And so whenever I was finishing up my PhD at Oklahoma State, this position opened at South Dakota State, and the appointments, or what I would be doing was 80% Extension, 20% research. And fortunately for me, I was competitive for that because again, I had a lot of that experience, and it's not something that's very common within PhD programs. Mostly it's research-focused.

(02:40):

Sometimes you do some teaching, but you don't often get the opportunity to do extension, and so I was competitive, got hired, and really hadn't done a whole lot of drainage or water management in a production agriculture setting, but again, had, I guess interest and some ability to connect with people, and so that's what really got me started. And so then, I've been at SDSU in Brookings for the last seven years. 2017 is when I started, and it's been great. We've loved every minute of it.

Jamie Duininck (03:15):

Yeah, yeah, and I hear you're moving back to Kentucky here in the, I don't know if it's near future. I'm not sure when you're moving, but ...

John McMaine (03:24):

Yeah, so we are, and it is coming in pretty hot. So it'll be this summer, summer of 2024, and moving back to be closer to my parents. And my role there will also be extension and research, a little bit of teaching there, but more on the urban side.

Jamie Duininck (03:43):

Sure.

John McMaine (03:44):

And I've talked to a lot of my colleagues, and I've talked about how much I'm going to miss the ag drainage community, and they say, "Well, just enlarge that community, right?" I mean, because a lot of the practices and the principles that I've learned and applied in ag drainage, they're applicable for stormwater and stormwater management.

Jamie Duininck (04:05):

Yeah, yeah. I actually was going to ask that question around, "How can you bring what you've learned in, really, the upper Midwest agricultural arena and around subsurface drainage, and the practices that you guys are teaching, how can you bring that to Kentucky?" And so maybe speak a little bit more about that. Is there going to be any opportunity to work in agriculture, or will just be more on the storm sewer, but both questions, and how are you going to be able to implement that?

John McMaine (04:38):

Yeah, that's a great question, and it's probably to be determined to some extent, because I didn't know what I was going to get into here in South Dakota, and just whatever gets funded, that's what you end up doing, but yeah. So from the practices perspective, it's encouraging to me that, really, all the things that I learned in my master's and PhD, which was more related to the urban stormwater side, all of that, I've taken kind of the foundational knowledge and apply that in ag drainage. And then, as I look forward, things like a bioreactor, woodchip bioreactor, which is pretty common, tile drainage, edge-of-field practice, really, all the mechanisms that we use to reduce nitrate with a woodchip bioreactor, that's the same as, say a bioretention cell with an upturned elbow. And just to go quickly through those two practices, woodchip bioreactor, it's a trench filled with woodchips. You need two things for denitrification to happen.

(05:44):

You need an anaerobic or low oxygen zone, so essentially, you need saturation. You need water to stay somewhere in that bioreactor, then you need a carbon source. So in a woodchip bioreactor, of course, it's woodchips, and then those microbes can get to work, converting that nitrate into dinitrogen gas. Well, then, you look at a bioretention cell, which would be similar. It's a depressional area, so basically a bowl in the landscape, kind of like a detention basin, but then, you force water into the ground, so kind of similar, you're passing it through a media, and then you can manage the outlet.

(06:27):

Essentially, the tile that's draining that rain guard and a bioretention cell, you can manage that so you have a layer that stays saturated. Again, we have denitrification that can happen in that situation because of that saturation, and then also, same as what would be in a woodchip bioreactor. So a lot of the concepts really transfer really well.

Jamie Duininck (06:47):

Sure, sure. Talk about a little bit about that community you've been involved with, that started at South Dakota State for you, and you've gotten to build some really great relationships over the last seven years. Just talk a little bit about the community and the people you meet and how they've influenced you.

John McMaine (07:07):

Yeah. Man, I've definitely gotten to stand on the shoulders of some giants. So the person that was in my position before I came to South Dakota State, Dr. Chris Hay, who moved from SDSU to Iowa Soybean Association, and then recently moved into private practice as a consulting consultant. Really, he laid such a great foundation in South Dakota for drainage research and extension, and he's been just an incredible mentor to ... Even just the little mundane things about planning events in South Dakota or the people I should talk to, those are really key.

(07:46):

The small details matter, but from a research perspective, getting to work with people like Chris or Dr. Gary Sands at University of Minnesota, Tom Scherer up at North Dakota State on the Extension side, they have been such a welcoming group, and really, all the way across the Midwest, Jane Frankenberger at Purdue, Matt Helmers at Iowa State. I mean, really, just incredible people, first of all, and then just very welcoming and encouraging. Honestly, I can't think of a better way to spend the first seven years in a faculty position other than getting to work with those folks, so it's been really helpful.

Jamie Duininck (08:32):

Yeah, yeah. What would you say your ... What's one or two takeaways that you'll have from your time there in Brookings, both personally and professionally?

John McMaine (08:46):

Yeah.

Jamie Duininck (08:46):

It's quite different, right, from where you've come from, so ...

John McMaine (08:50):

Yeah, for sure. One thing that I think translates really well, both personally and professionally, and really, across the board is the importance of relationships. And this is relationships with stakeholders, so drainage contractors, farmers, other researchers, other Extension faculty and staff. And, really, relationships, when you get to that point, that's what you can get to with trust, and really, you need trust in a relationship to make progress. The other thing that is important about relationships and kind of about this feedback loop is with Extension, and if your boots on the ground, if you're out there working with folks, you hear what the actual problems are, and so a lot of times researchers, and I'm not throwing anyone under the bus, but we can have some great ideas, but it may not be to actually solve a problem.

(09:54):

So we can innovate, we can develop technology, but if it's not something that addresses the issue, then it doesn't move the needle. It doesn't actually impact anything positively, and so I think those would be two things. One is take the time to develop. Maintain relationships, number one. Number two, just be willing to listen and learn.

(10:23):

We have worked with communities, small communities in South Dakota, and we did a project where we've done about 30 interviews with small community leaders, leaders in small communities, I should say, and in our minds, what we thought was going to be the issue ... We thought it was going to be technical expertise, was their kind of limiting factor for managing water. Their limiting factor for managing water was funding, and it's not that the funding isn't out there. There's lots of low interest loans, there's programs from the federal or state government that help them with infrastructure projects, but a lot of these townships, they don't have the tax base to even provide the match dollars to access that funding, or maybe they don't have the 30 or 40 or $50,000 to do the engineering study that they need to be able to get to that funding source. So if we'd gone in with this intent of, "We're going to develop this technology, and we're going to come up with these innovations," and really, that would've missed the mark, because they couldn't use any of that because their limitation was access to the funding in the first place. So relationships and listening, I think are two big takeaways that I've had.

Jamie Duininck (11:35):

Sure, sure. Oh, I appreciate you sharing that and just the conversation around trust and how a relationship really is. In order for that to go forward and for you to move quicker, there needs to be a certain amount of trust, and the more trust you have, the faster it goes, so that's great.

John McMaine (11:57):

Absolutely.

Jamie Duininck (11:58):

Great stuff. Tell me a little bit about ... It sounds like you have a podcast, and tell me a little bit about how that came about and what you enjoy about that, and what is the purpose of it?

John McMaine (12:13):

Absolutely, yeah. So we do have a podcast that's called Streamlines. It's on the SDSU extension website, as well as on Spotify. I wouldn't say it's an active podcast right now. We're at 17 episodes and holding.

Jamie Duininck (12:30):

Sure.

John McMaine (12:30):

We haven't put much out recently, but yeah. I'd say the impetus for that was really trying to think about how we connect with people again. And the traditional Extension model would be your standard field days, fact sheets, maybe some blog type articles, and those all have a place and they're all good in their place, but you're not going to read a fact sheet while you're harvesting corn. You're not going to go to a field day if you only have limited time, but you're in the car a lot, or you're in the truck a lot, you're taking a trip to town a lot, and so, really, it kind of came about as an opportunity to maybe engage people in a different way and be able to connect with people that we wouldn't necessarily, like that we are missing. And so what I've enjoyed about that, in the format that we do, is we do some interviews ahead of time, take sound bites from those interviews, and then my colleague and friend, Anthony Bly, he's a SDSU Soils Field specialist for SDSU Extension, he and I will discuss those interviews in essence.

(13:50):

And the really cool thing is, kind of going back to being able to stand on the shoulders of giants, I've gotten to talk with just some incredible people, which I'm sure you feel the same way, Jamie. It's so awesome when people come on and just blow your mind about different topics and research they're working on, so it's been really fun.

Jamie Duininck (14:10):

Yeah, yeah. Actually, the day we're recording this today, where we've released our 100th episode, so this one will be around 100, and 300, and four, somewhere in there.

John McMaine (14:24):

Congratulations. That's awesome.

Jamie Duininck (14:26):

Yes, but what's been ... The reason I say that isn't to brag, it's because of the same thing. It's been really enjoyable, way more enjoyable than I anticipated it to be. It was more like this is a good thing to do, and then finding out that it's a good thing to do, and you also enjoy it, and it gets you to connect to more people and build relationships, and then provide education.

John McMaine (14:47):

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jamie Duininck (14:48):

Because the cool thing about podcasts is they sit there, and you can come back to them over time. It's a nice library of information for education. So I feel the same way, and I'm glad I asked the question because it's been neat here, and definitely, full disclosure, I haven't listened to the Streamline, but I certainly will, so I'm happy to do so.

John McMaine (15:12):

Yeah, awesome.

Jamie Duininck (15:14):

Do you plan on starting that up back in Kentucky or ...

John McMaine (15:18):

I hope so. Yeah. So my former master's advisor, she started a podcast with someone else in Kentucky, KYH2O, and they cover just different topics related to water, connected to water in Kentucky, so things like karst, topography, so how cave systems develop, and within limestone, and just really interesting topics. Bourbon, of course, is really big in Kentucky, and so talking about the connection between water quality and the bourbon industry. So there is somewhat of a precedent, and it's something that I really enjoy. I think the biggest thing will be making sure I prioritize my time appropriately because they do take a lot of time too, so ...

Jamie Duininck (16:08):

Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. Now, way off the subject, but you're going to Kentucky, and are you going to have a positive influence on that Kentucky basketball program, because it seemed like they took a step backwards here?

John McMaine (16:22):

Yeah, that's a really good question. Yeah, it's been a whirlwind the last few days and weeks. I kind of thought of some corollaries between Mark Pope going back to Kentucky and me going back to Kentucky. He's an alum of the university and was in a position that he really enjoyed and appreciated, and embraced the community, but now he's going back, and so I kind of feel some corollaries there, and hopefully it works out good for both of us. We'll see.

Jamie Duininck (16:57):

Yeah, yeah. Well, you're leaving a pretty good program there right now in football, and both men's and women's basketball, right, so ...

John McMaine (17:06):

Absolutely. Yeah.

Jamie Duininck (17:07):

Yeah, yeah. So that's been fun for you over time there too. So, John, thanks for joining me. Anything that you would like to add to The Water Table? You got any other thoughts on water quality, water quantity?

John McMaine (17:23):

Yeah. So maybe one thing that I'll bring up, and it's fresh on my mind, I did a colloquium yesterday for the Social Science Department here at SDSU, and I guess one thing that's kind of maybe come forefront over the last seven years, and it kind of goes back to those relationships and kind of the need for solving problems that exist, but it's been really real and apparent to me the need to really collaborate across disciplines and making sure that we do try to address the full suite of issues. And so, for example, from a water quality perspective, we can think about, again, different technologies that are proven that we know can improve water quality, but there's still barriers to putting those in, and so I really appreciated working with social scientists, with economists, and I think that that's critical. I mean, we have to do that if we're going to be able to move the needle. I remember, so Robyn Wilson, Dr. Robyn Wilson, she's a behavioral scientist at the Ohio State University. We had her come out last year and do a keynote for our Student Water Conference, which we started three years ago, and she talked about maladaptive versus adaptive behavioral change, and I'll just quickly go through that.

(18:55):

So maladaptive is essentially solving one problem. If we think about in an urban setting, a storm sewer does a really great job of reducing flooding, localized flooding. It gets water away from the area, sends it downstream, but really, that's the only problem that it addresses. And so there's other things we can think about that are adaptive that address multiple issues, and so that would be like a storm sewer, but with a bioretention cell upstream. And we can think about that with tile drainage too, right?

Jamie Duininck (18:55):

Right.

John McMaine (19:29):

It does a fantastic job of addressing an issue of too much water in a field, but how can we look at tile drainage to address multiple issues? And so when we think about controlled drainage, maybe we're also addressing the water quality piece. Maybe we're also holding a reservoir for maybe a little bit of extra water in the summer, drainage water recycling, something similar to that. So I guess that's one thing that's fresh on my mind that I wanted to bring up, that number one, acknowledging that there are many barriers, and every situation is unique, and we have to address those social barriers or the behavioral change aspect in addition to just the technology, and then, number two, "How can we make technology do more for us to be able to achieve multiple objectives within that?," but-

Jamie Duininck (20:27):

Sure. Sure. Cool. Well, I appreciate your thinking about that, your involvement in that, and it's going to be really interesting for us to continue to stay connected and for you to see where you can take this and take some of the knowledge and experience you've gained in agriculture and apply that a little bit more on the commercial storm sewer side of the equation, as there is, as listening to you, there is so many opportunities and so many things to solve in both areas and that collaboration, working together, finding ways to use information from one area into a completely different area. I think it's really going to be beneficial to have somebody like you, looking into that because so many others just don't have the exposure on the agricultural side, so thanks for that.

John McMaine (21:21):

Sure. Yeah. No, I appreciate that sentiment, and hopefully, yeah, I can kind of connect some of those dots. Yeah, yeah.

Jamie Duininck (21:30):

Yeah. So a fun fact that I heard about you the other day was that you like to end certain meetings, in-person meetings with transforming drainage and some of your colleagues with a rap of kind of what you learned during that time. So if you're open to it, I think The Water Table would like to hear our first live rap here.

John McMaine (21:55):

Yeah, right on. Yeah. So I'll do one that ... So a little bit more background on this. So that Conservation Drainage Network group, the Transforming Drainage group, again, I mean, kind of a testament to how welcoming they are.

(22:17):

I was the ... See, maybe three years ago, I had a presentation at that meeting, so there's 100 people in the room, and one of my hobbies, I kind of like to put words together that rhyme, and it's kind of fun, but I said, "Let's start this off with ... Let's do the introduction as a rap, see what happens," and I didn't really know what to expect.

Jamie Duininck (22:44):

Yeah.

John McMaine (22:44):

No one in the room knew what to expect, but it was great. It was fun. And so since then, I've kind of carried on that tradition and done it some in SDSU, and definitely have kept doing it at the Conservation Drainage Network annual meeting.

Jamie Duininck (23:00):

Sure.

John McMaine (23:00):

So the one I'll do right now is the first one I did at that Conservation Drainage Network meeting a couple of years ago. So the situation that we're facing is eutrophication, high nitrate concentration in the Mississippi and Atchafalaya River Basin. Eutrophication is a combination of concentration and flow to the Gulf of Mexico. Our contribution is low. You see, SD, top of the watershed.

(23:23):

Our contribution is not that rare. We want to keep it that way, keep our contribution to base so we can say we came to play in this ballet to mitigate the gulf's decay.

Jamie Duininck (23:30):

Wow. Very, very good. I got the whole team back here, and they're getting out their gold chains and they're going after it back there. But anyway, that was awesome. Thank you. I didn't know what to expect, and I'm glad I asked. So glad I asked.

John McMaine (23:46):

There you go, yeah. Yeah.

Jamie Duininck (23:48):

So thanks for being the first on The Water Table to rap for us, and-

John McMaine (23:51):

Yes. No, that's fun.

Jamie Duininck (23:52):

John, appreciate the time. Good luck to you here in the future as you move to another opportunity with your family, and let's stay in touch.

John McMaine (24:04):

Sounds good.


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