The Water Table

#136 | From Worry to Water Management: How Fairgoers Feel About Water Quality

• Jamie Duininck • Episode 136

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When it comes to water quality, what do people really think? Host Jamie Duininck took The Water Table podcast on the road to the Minnesota State Fair to interview fairgoers and hear their concerns. You'll hear genuine, on-the-spot answers, covering everything from local lake health to field runoff to worries about nitrates and other materials reaching the water table.

Jamie and Prinsco Application Engineer, Trey Allis, unpack these conversations to address concerns and discuss how water management practices, such as control structures, offer solutions for improved water quality.

Chapters:
00:00 - Welcome to the Water Table Podcast
00:28 - Today’s guest Trey Allis
01:40 - Discussing water quality at the State Fair 
03:00 - Importance of water quality
03:35 - The effect of runoff, impervious soils and algae
04:46 - Concerns about the impact of agriculture   
07:35 - Water management practices and implementation
12:16 - Sub-irrigation, drainage recycling and other opportunities
17:55 - Let’s talk about research
18:45 - Nitrate issues and control drainage
22:42 - New contractors and the use of technology 
25:49 - Adopt a storm drain
29:10 - Wrap-up


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Joel (00:00):

The local paper, a couple years ago there was some concern about nitrates and so forth getting into the water table.

Speaker 2 (00:06):

One thing that I think about is water quality as well as water accessibility and clean water, especially given that we're a state that has so many beautiful natural resources, rivers, lakes, and streams.

Corey (00:17):

Well, I enjoy our lakes because I'm from Minnesota and I have noticed though that there has been an increase in the green algae and plants that are growing in them, and I am concerned about that.

Michelle (00:30):

Whatever does go in the drain ends up in our waterways and that affects the quality of the water that is around us here in Minnesota.

Jamie Duininck (00:42):

Welcome to the Water Table Podcast. Back with a second episode from the Minnesota State Fair. I was at the State Fair back in August and had the opportunity to just talk to people and to visit with people about water and how they feel about water, what comes to their mind when they're thinking about water and water on our agricultural landscape. We got some really interesting comments and so I invited Trey Allis in here because I think some of the things Trey does for Prinsco, working with the ADMC, and different projects that are going on and that we're supporting or we're funding around water quality, and some of the interesting things is these questions get at a lot of that. So I thought it would be fun, Trey, to just listen to the comments and then have a dialogue back and forth about what our industry is currently up to, what you're currently up to with some of your colleagues around the country as far as water quality and how we are not only supporting it, but finding solutions to some of the issues that are out there.

Trey Allis (01:49):

Yeah, no, that sounds great. Be a good cross-section for type of folks that you're talking to and not necessarily all the ones that we get to, the researchers and all the experts that we have at the ADMC and some of those circles, so hearing it from more of the general public, some of their questions and thoughts on this will be fun discussion starter.

Jamie Duininck (02:08):

Yeah.

(02:09):

So we took an afternoon, beautiful day, we walked around the fair. We got a lot of no's to say, "Would you talk to me about water?" But we got some great yeses and so let's watch the clips here.

(02:22):

The Water Table's at the Minnesota State Fair this year, trying something different. And found a new friend here, Joel from Fountain, Minnesota, which is very Southeastern Minnesota, down by Lanesboro south of Rochester. And, Joel, down in Southeast Minnesota we hear about some water quality issues now and again. Is that something that's prevalent in your county and in your area? Do people talk about it or not so much?

Joel (02:44):

The local paper, a couple years ago there was some concern about nitrates and so forth getting into the water table, so there's been talk about it.

Jamie Duininck (02:53):

We're in the 4-H building here at State Fair. Jennifer and Ann are joining me here, we just had a nice little conversation and just tell me a little bit about what you guys do.

Speaker 2 (03:03):

Well, I lead the 4-H program and we have over 50,000 young people in the 4-H program, and so we are running a youth development program, so there are programs that take place either in school or out of school.

Jamie Duininck (03:14):

Let's talk a little bit about water. What do you think about when you think about water and the future challenges or how we deal with it?

Speaker 2 (03:22):

One thing that I think about is water quality as well as water accessibility and clean water. And especially given that we're a state that has so many beautiful natural resources, rivers, lakes, and streams, and you name it, so thinking about how can young people understand the importance of water quality and continue to sustain that and build it over time.

Jamie Duininck (03:42):

Just found some friends here at the State Fair. Taking a little break, Corey, Mark, and Josh, and talking a little bit about water. And you guys live in the Metro and Eagan. From a perspective of people in the Metro, what do you think about when you think about water in Minnesota? Do you have any concerns, Josh?

Josh (04:00):

Well, when I think of water in the South Metro, I'm thinking of runoff to our lakes and ponds that our fish need to survive around there.

Jamie Duininck (04:10):

How about you, Corey? Anything you're thinking about when it comes to water?

Corey (04:13):

Well, I enjoy our lakes because I'm from Minnesota, and I have noticed though that there has been an increase in the green algae and plants that are growing in them and I am concerned about that.

Jamie Duininck (04:26):

Mark, anything to add to this conversation here at the fair?

Mark (04:29):

The water runoff was a big deal for us this year, we replaced our driveway. And we're not allowed to make our driveway at all bigger. There are three lakes surrounding our neighborhood and they're very strict about that.

Jamie Duininck (04:43):

At the State Fair here, I'm with Marty and Fred. And we're just walking around Machinery Hill and we got into a discussion about water and agriculture, and let's talk a little bit about that. What are you thinking about there, Marty?

Marty (04:57):

I am thinking that all those things that go into the soil that we use to grow corn and soybeans definitely go into the water. When it rains, runoff, it's a concern. And you don't have to look very far to look at rivers or ponds or anything that has a problem.

Jamie Duininck (05:17):

Maybe start with the conversation I had there with Marty and Fred, and her thoughts, which I know a lot of people think about as farmers are using a lot of different chemicals, and then we're putting pipe in the ground and pipe is the conduit for those chemicals if they aren't attaching to the plant or the soil, for that to run out into the stream and then ultimately the river and the Gulf of Mexico. And so, let's talk a little bit about that. We've been working on that as an industry for a long time. And we've talked about it a lot on the Water Table too with nitrates and all of the different practices, but what's going on currently? I know you've been at some meetings this summer, and give me some thoughts.

Trey Allis (06:01):

And probably the first one to start out with there is fertilizers applied to fields for crop growth, and soil health, and applying nutrients to in order to have a crop. It's not the goal for the farmer to overapply nitrogen, overapply fertilizer for that to then go down the stream and create some of these issues. What we're seeing and what a lot of research has been focused around here the last probably 20 years is what are some of those mechanisms for how that, through the nitrogen cycle, and I'm not expert on it by any means, so I might get off my skis real quick on it, but nitrogen is applied to the field, water carries nitrates with it, and that's what we're seeing from the tile water. So when you're asking about what can be done and what are some of those solutions in place, one is have be able to grow the crop that you're intending to grow, so it utilizes as much as that nitrogen before it gets into the tile water.

(07:00):

But then there's a handful of practices more coming on the downstream side near tile outlets, and I think you mentioned them in a few videos with saturated buffers and bioreactors, essentially creating an environment for that tile water that might be rich in nitrates to go through a bed of some organic matter and have the microbes use their natural processes to turn that into nitrogen gas up in the atmosphere. And essentially then you get cleaner tile water or drainage water on the downstream side of that too. So some of those, there's a few of those tools that we have in the toolbox for managing some of that tile water, but then also it's all part of a system with surface runoff and with buffers on the edge of the streams, if you start to implement things like cover crop and no-till to keep more vegetation on the soil, to keep that soil in place. Because with sediment then you start dealing with some of the issues with phosphorus and maybe some of the other pesticides and whatever else could be more in that surface water.

(07:56):

So that was something that jumped out to me looking through some or listening to some of these videos is you have some of these same conversations with a farmer, they can talk about it on their land and all the things that they're doing in place there and are really familiar with some of that, when it gets to the public and more the general public can talk to... Maybe more folks from the Metro area is it's water quality and nitrates and things in our rivers and lakes and they want to keep that for recreation. We all do, but it's just a little bit of not necessarily a contrast in the differences, but different perspectives on when we start talking about water and start talking about some of these topics and some of these issues. It looks different with different folks and the different viewpoints too, so it's like I said, an interesting way to go about this discussion of this topic is to have these different perspectives that we can dissect and talk about a little bit more.

Jamie Duininck (08:50):

And I think people are always interested in hearing about the practices, and I noticed that at the fair is some of the times I would talk about edge-of-field practices. Even if I didn't explain them, but I just mentioned edge-of-field practices and water level control structures, people got interested in that. Either they asked a question or you could just tell by how they responded. "Oh, good. I think about these things. I really don't know much about it, but I'm glad that there are people working on the issues."

(09:21):

And I think, we've talked about this before, but one of the issues with our industry is that it's all, you can't see what we do and so there's pipe out in the field or in our yards at our plants, it gets delivered to a field. It might only be in that field for 12 hours before it's installed and once it's installed it's underground and it's working every day. But people don't know that, so they don't really understand. They know that we're managing water, but what does that mean if you're not part of the industry, if you haven't seen it done before? It is kind of hard to visualize and to understand how that all works for the greater good. But to hear that there's these practices, you can relate to that, edge-of-field, we know what that means. We know about surface runoff because you can see it and we know how that would help. So I think it's just really great for us to be able to talk about those things so they can connect what they're already thinking about in a concerned way.

Trey Allis (10:23):

Mm-hmm. Kind of a similar topic with you know things that you see and you mentioned some of the erosion, some of those issues on that side. There's really good programs out there for the cover crops and for waterways and for different WASCOBs and again, some of these other NICS practices that are putting things on the landscape that do help water, slows it down, manages it, keeps everything where it should be from a sediment standpoint, from an erosion standpoint. Where those things are really easy to sell, you can have field days on those all the time. That's great to see. It's a little bit different when you get to say a field day on a saturated buffer, a bioreactor, or even just a general tile project. We're like, "Yep, there's maybe a couple intakes that you can see and a couple of water level control structures that are out there too." And then that's about all they really get out it from that standpoint, so it's good to tell the story a little bit about all this infrastructure that is underground that's doing its job 24/7.

Jamie Duininck (11:19):

Yeah. And I don't want to get too much into this, but you and I happened to be part of a meeting where people were talking about the opportunities we have to store our water on our field or on our property and then be able to subirrigate with that water by creating a wetland or an area to store and compound that water for a while, and then be able to use it back during the growing season. And there's a potential that that could work quite well. It's probably going to be very expensive and maybe there'll be some cost share, but the reason I bring that up is I do think that's something that the general public can get behind pretty quickly because it's something they can see and they can understand it right away. Well, if it rains and it goes through your pipe, but it's not leaving your property, you're then storing it for when it isn't raining.

(12:17):

Makes complete sense to me and why wouldn't I be willing to help with that? Because I am concerned about, through tax dollars, because I am concerned about water quality and what's happening to the lakes, rivers, streams.

Trey Allis (12:30):

Yeah, and that's drainage water recycling is that project. And that theory that's out there is essentially capturing your drainage water in the spring when there's too much precipitation, too much rainfall, hang onto that water before it leaves your site. And the one meeting that we were on, they're looking at capturing essentially 100% of the average rainfall to keep on their property so it doesn't go downstream with, again, all the other nutrients and all nitrogen and nitrates and all that other stuff. With it is if you're able to essentially self-contain your whole field and all the water and everything that falls on it and that you apply to it, there's a lot of opportunity with that from a promotable standpoint, like you mentioned, that's a good story to tell is if we can keep all this in one spot and you're going to have the benefits of the yield and why people do drainage and irrigation in the first place, be able to have those benefits along with not having the adverse effects and some of the trade-offs that we see with some of these practices independently.

Jamie Duininck (13:32):

And I want to just move forward a little bit and one of the comments that was made by the family that was from the Metro area. They talked about water and issues where they wanted to expand their driveway and they weren't able to because of the impervious soil and the impervious amount of area on their lot with their house and their driveway. And that's always been interesting to me, an interesting discussion because there is a lot of opportunities for our industry, from the water management industry to get more involved in that, but there doesn't seem to be a huge appetite from cities, counties, state, municipalities, I guess is the right way to explain that, from the standpoint of requiring that kind of thing. Because it would be pretty simple to require if you're going to put an addition onto your home or a new home, just a few thousand gallon tank that stores the water and then you can use that for irrigation, washing your car, whatever you might want, watering your shrubs.

(14:40):

And a year like this year in the upper Midwest, that couple thousand gallon tank never... I don't care how much you're going to water, you would've had water available to you through that tank. Some years maybe you would have to supplement with something else with your well or city water. But that is an interesting concept that I think has a real opportunity to continue to grow. Not so much in agriculture, but what we do. We are a water management company outside of just the agricultural area being one segment.

Trey Allis (15:12):

Yeah, and it's all kind of that similar approach. And that's what's been fun throughout my career is focusing more on the agricultural side of our business, but then seeing that crossover with a lot of the stormwater management products that we have and some of the approaches that housing developments or shopping malls are doing something similar, is they're storing their water, they're holding onto it and they're looking at treatment trains and different things like that. We're crossing over some of that into on the egg side as well, which is kind of cool to be able to cross-reference some of those different industries and those different markets. And then more on the small scale on some of the DIY stuff that folks are essentially looking to do in their backyard with rain barrels and storing that water and can do it independently of whatever else is going on. It's good practice to hang onto your water for when you might need it later. So it's kind of fun to see that same concept in all these different markets too.

Jamie Duininck (16:02):

Right. And there's just opportunities all over. In Minnesota, I think we have... Maybe you know the number, but I think it's over 80 watershed districts. And I think it's 88, so you can check me and see if I'm right. But that's a real opportunity for the continued education of the general public through the watershed districts, and we can help there, even though sometimes with people like that we're seen as very specific use for our industry and I think it can be broader than that. So being at the State Fair and talking to people gives me some energy around those kind of issues too and how we can help solve problems.

(16:47):

The other conversation that struck me was the one I had with Joel from Fountain, Minnesota, and soon as he told me where he was from and I said, "Where's that?" Because I didn't know-

Trey Allis (16:55):

The Sinkhole Capital of the USA. [inaudible 00:16:58].

Jamie Duininck (16:58):

Yeah, I knew exactly where he was going to go with the nitrate issue because they've had some of them there. And talk a little bit about what you guys are doing from a research standpoint and anything that you'd like to share that's maybe new or needs to be said about what we're doing around nitrates right now.

Trey Allis (17:18):

Well, it kind of all revolves around some of those same practices that we've been talking about and we're kind of at a point of scaling them up more so. So it's been really cool to see down in Iowa is a lot of batch-and-build programs that are taken off from the one that we piloted maybe five, six years ago, something like that, a lot more independent and tackling more on the watershed scale. I'm not saying the full watersheds for some of these smaller watersheds, but we're going to have an opportunity to look at what are these practices doing when they're consecutive, when they're treating as much essentially tile water as we can in these areas to help with those nitrate issues. There might be a little bit different nitrate issues around Fountain with lime stone and stuff like that too, so that gets back to the farming practices. And they have more topography there too, so that's terraces, that's contour farming, that's some other stuff. Tools in their toolbox there as well.

(18:12):

But from the water management standpoint, on the treatment side of things where there's going to be some good research and some papers coming out on the impact of some of the stuff at scale here in the next handful of years, but then also probably more on the water storage side of things too is, again, there's opportunities for those, for terraces and for WASCOBs to slow down that water, hang onto it, control drainage. And on slopes it's going to be a little more difficult, but essentially hanging onto your water, using that water profile as that sponge and as an opportunity to slow down that water to hang onto it. For some of these, it's really going to show here, I know we're in a wet cycle here the last couple of years up in Minnesota, but when we do start getting into some drought conditions and you were to have these practices in there like controlled drainage, drainage water recycling, things like this, where you are conserving that water, there's going to be a time where it's going to pay off and you're really going to need it.

(19:08):

Again, not necessarily up here around Wilmer where we've been wet all spring and all summer, but again, it all evens out. We all take our turns on some of this stuff. So there's again, tools in the toolbox that for the most part we just need to get the word out there more on a lot of this stuff. So there's a lot of good research work going on through the ADMC and things that we're working with with some universities and some other folks there, but then being able to tell that story on it is going to be, again, probably where the most impact is going to come.

Jamie Duininck (19:37):

Yeah. Well, great, and again, the stuff that you guys are doing in your industry has really built over a long period of time. It's over 40 years of some of the first researchers that have retired, either long retired or some more recently, but feels like you have such a great nucleus of researchers and industry people that are involved in this and have a lot of momentum. So like you said, getting close to scaling some of this, it's really going to be an interesting, don't want to use the word watershed moment, but an interesting time that we're living in right now to see how we can scale this and what we can do with it because it's really exciting and there's really a lot of opportunities.

Trey Allis (20:24):

Mm-hmm. And it's going to take a lot of effort there too. Just the sheer volume from the contractors that are going to need to be competent in some of these areas and say bidding some of these projects and how they're going to be designed and making sure that everybody can be able to provide the designs, provide the work for quality installation. Because that's the other thing that we don't want to have go wrong is have all this effort, design all these practices, get them implemented, but not have them all be buttoned up and be the right way. And then there's going to be finger pointing on the back end. "Well, I tried X, but Y happened." And then let's not create the good story that is out there. And again, to capture that potential for that opportunity that is there. And like I said, it's going to take effort and going to take a lot of work and competent people that are all working with this.

(21:16):

So that's also part of what we're doing with ADMC and some of the other members is trying to build up that competency, build up that education piece from contractors, but also the public and some of the watersheds and some of the folks that are out there making some of these decisions, the farmers, the landowners, the absentee landowners, that could be some of the people that you're talking to at the State Fair of saying, "Hey, this is a good idea." Again, some of the tools that are in your toolbox as a landowner for things that you can be doing on your land. And again, spreading that message a little bit more to continue this scaling up and hopefully a little more organically too.

Jamie Duininck (21:52):

Yeah, I appreciate you mentioning contractors in that because in my time in the industry, I've really seen that change where there was a lot of older contractors and they maybe weren't as technology savvy as the young guys are today, but that dad and grandpa have retired, younger guys taken over. And there just is not only opportunity, but there's a desire to do more of this work too. So I think to catch the vision of the opportunity that's out there with water quality and how we can be a solution for that has really changed over the last, for sure, 10 years, maybe even 5 years, where there is the younger contractor has a lot of interest and hunger to be involved in that, and that's exciting.

Trey Allis (22:39):

Yeah, and they move fast too. With thinking through these different solutions, that's been kind of fun talking with some of them that. You start talking about, say drainage, water recycling and their gears start getting working and you go, "Oh, I can we be doing this, this, this on these? Well, this farm that we just did two weeks ago, well, we could have done that here. Well, how big a pond would we have needed?" And it starts, their gears are turning in some of that stuff too, so that's fun to see.

Jamie Duininck (23:01):

Yeah, because it's going to take that, it's going to take everybody involved. And I think that was part of the reason 20 years ago, it didn't move as fast as there just wasn't a desire from the contractor community to be as much involved in. They were more involved in, "Hey, we're going to do what we've always done. We're going to-"

Trey Allis (23:16):

Know that it works.

Jamie Duininck (23:17):

Yeah, "Take care of your water problem on your farm," But not thinking about, well, that's creating another problem. So it's exciting to see these new guys or younger guys I should say, grabbing onto it.

Trey Allis (23:31):

For sure.

Jamie Duininck (23:31):

At State Fair here. Great day, it's like 75 degrees. I'm with Jake, sitting here. Jake waited like a half hour in line to get this doughnut. How is it?

Jake (23:40):

It's quality for sure.

Jamie Duininck (23:40):

It was worth it.

Jake (23:41):

Absolutely.

Jamie Duininck (23:42):

So Jake, you kind of an urban guy from my perspective.

Jake (23:46):

Yes.

Jamie Duininck (23:46):

Live in Saint Paul. What's your relationship from the standpoint of what you know about and what you think about how farmers in Minnesota and rural America manage their farms, and when it comes to anything about water that you might know?

Jake (24:00):

Not a ton from my side, mainly my side being living in Saint Paul is dealing with water in an unfinished basement, which isn't the worst thing, but not too much. I have a lot of family who live in North Central Iowa. I've heard a lot of talk about the lack of water in specific areas to really keep soil compact and fresh for crops. It's tough on farmers.

Jamie Duininck (24:22):

Well, I think one thing that's interesting that you just mentioned, you got water in your basement last week. You don't want water in your basement, and what you'll probably do over time, if that happens again, is you'll go to Menards and you'll pick up some pipe and you'll either do it yourself or you'll have somebody come and put that pipe around your foundation. It's going to pull the water out of your basement. That's exactly what a farmer is doing is managing that water table, they're not taking it away, they're not draining wetlands, they're not doing any of that, they're growing a better crop, so we can use the flower and that kind of stuff for a great donut.

Jake (24:54):

Absolutely.

Jamie Duininck (24:54):

So I appreciate your time today.

Jake (24:57):

Thanks for appreciating me. Appreciate that.

Jamie Duininck (24:58):

Thanks for being on the Water Table.

Jake (24:59):

Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

Jamie Duininck (25:00):

Back at the fair here with Michelle from Farmington. Michelle, you're working here today-

Michelle (25:06):

With Adopt-a-Drain.

Jamie Duininck (25:08):

Yeah, Adopt-a-Drain. Maybe just start by telling me a little bit about your experience working here, the kind of questions you get from people, and how you're educating people here at the State Fair.

Michelle (25:16):

So essentially, we are encouraging people to adopt their local or area storm drain near their home or work area, teaching them about how whatever does go in the drain ends up in our waterways and that affects the quality of the water that is around us here in Minnesota.

Jamie Duininck (25:33):

What do you know about agricultural water management using pipe to control the water table?

Michelle (25:39):

I'm not as familiar with agriculture fields, but I do know that we are working towards having plants in between our crops so that we're minimizing the amount of tilling that's going on, but also keeping the water in the ground as opposed to evaporating it. And I also know that we can use corrugated piping to be able to convey water to where we're needing it to go, and those buffer zones are amazing because they are helping keep those nitrates out of our water.

Jamie Duininck (26:08):

Well, thanks, Michelle, for the time here today on the Water Table.

Michelle (26:11):

Thank you.

Jamie Duininck (26:11):

Those last two clips that we watched, Trey, were more people that don't have as much knowledge on agriculture, they're more suburban people, let's call them, because they weren't really urban, but suburban people. And yet it's really interesting to talk to them and fun to talk to them because the guy that talked about having water in his basement is really a drainage situation. It's really pulling that water away from the foundation so it doesn't get into there. That's what we're doing is we're pulling the water table down in a farm field so that the roots can grow deeper and creates a healthier plant. On our agricultural side, we also obviously have a stormwater division and a residential division of Prinsco. But to me, those kind of conversations are just fun because you can educate somebody on how drainage works, why it's important wherever you are. You can't look at it and say, "Well, that's a bad thing on a farm field," but then go home and enjoy seeing your sump pump working.

Trey Allis (27:13):

Yeah, it's doing the same thing there.

Jamie Duininck (27:14):

Yeah, because it's doing the same thing.

Trey Allis (27:17):

Yeah. And that's to get at, and maybe a point that we were making earlier as well, is there's things that you see have the most impact. You can't see nitrates in tile water, so that's what, especially talking with a lot of old-school farmers is, "What do you mean there's something in there? It's clean, I drink out of that, it's just fine," but that's just some hidden... You don't know what you don't see. And things that you do see really drives those programs. And that Adopt-a-Drain program too, good thing to promote, good thing to have out there to bring more awareness to the water quality side of things and how water is managed, how water is treated, all of that too.

(27:54):

And the other good thing that I think she said is using pipe and some of these systems to put the water where you want it. And I kind of got at with the guy talking about water in his basement as well, it's like, "Water isn't bad, but I don't necessarily want it in my basement." So there's things that we can do to protect what we have and put the water where we want it and still have what we need to, whether that's your basement or whether that's your farm field as well.

Jamie Duininck (28:19):

Yep, yep. Great.

(28:22):

Well, it's been fun to just have these discussions and then share them with you and just have a dialogue about what I learned and the people I got to talk to at the fair. And maybe next year you and I should go there together and talk to more people and be a little bit bolder about our questions.

Trey Allis (28:40):

Yeah, we can do that as long as you're buying all the food.

Jamie Duininck (28:43):

All right, well, I can do that. So thanks for your time today, Trey.

Trey Allis (28:47):

Yep. Thanks a lot, Jamie.

Jamie Duininck (28:48):

Appreciate it.

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