The Water Table
The Water Table
#138 | Set It & Forget It… Making Controlled Water Management Accessible
Control structures— Can you really set ‘em and forget ‘em? Guest Host Trey Allis is joined by Scott Lukan, Agri Drain President, and Josh Shuler, Agri Drain Product & Business Manager, to dig into controlled water management. They break down the scalable solutions available to the industry and the role of Agri Drain in making them more approachable. Learn how these “levers” are helping farmers and landowners reduce nutrient loss and gain greater control over their water and pocketbooks.
Chapters:
00:00 Welcome to The Water Table podcast
00:42 Introducing Scott and Josh
01:52 About Agri Drain
03:00 Water Level Control Structures
06:30 Precipitation and Crop Needs
08:30 Set It & Forget It: Setting A Schedule
10:15 Benefits of Controlled Drainage
14:37 Dry Years Versus Wet Years
17:07 Innovative Product Lines
19:05 Inside View of Structures and Valves
23:06 Phones, Cameras, and Monitoring
25:15 Practices That Maximize Effectiveness
31:38 Performance Reports
33:01 Retrofitting Existing Tile Systems
42:15 Weather Patterns and Adaptability
44:10 Innovation and the Future of Controlled Water Management
47:02 Wrap-up
Related content:
- #119 | Revolutionizing Drainage - Improving Infrastructure with Technology
- #114 | Crumbling Ag Drainage Infrastructure = Unique Upgrade Opportunities
- #110 | Bridging the Gap Between Water Management Research & Application
- #46 | How the Next Generation is Using Technology to Take Ag to the Next Level
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Scott Lukan (00:00):
The NRCS says that there's 30 million acres in the Upper Mississippi Watershed that are suitable for this practice, drainage water management.
Josh Shuler (00:09):
Maximize the use of that tile and then hold back every last drop that we can hold buys us days and weeks into the growing season.
Scott Lukan (00:17):
So I think that's what's really cool, is it's a system that can grow with the land.
Josh Shuler (00:21):
We've had automation out for a long time, and I think a lot of people don't realize that, and they don't realize the benefit that it brings to the table.
Trey (00:36):
Welcome to The Water Table. Today we're joined by Scott Lukan, the President of Agri Drain, and Josh Shuler, Product and Business Development Manager also with Agri Drain.
(00:47):
Going to be able to talk a little bit about water management and some of the things that are going on within Agri Drain and the industry, and where a lot of this stuff is going with agriculture water management. So, thanks for coming on and being able to come up and do this in person. Appreciate it.
Josh Shuler (01:02):
I appreciate the opportunity.
Trey (01:03):
Awesome.
Scott Lukan (01:04):
Thanks for having us.
Trey (01:05):
Yeah, for sure. And to kick it off, maybe want to give a little background on you guys and on Agri Drain. Josh, you have an extensive background in some automation and GPS, and some stuff within agriculture. Want to give a little highlights to how you got into Agri Drain here?
Josh Shuler (01:22):
Yeah, been an ag all my life. Graduated and went right into the precision ag industry. Worked for Trimble for quite a while and left for a little bit. Thought that I was tired of the corporate life, but no, I need to be on the driver's seat. I came back into water management in 2011. I was a duck to water. So I ran that business for quite a few years. Had the opportunity to come and join Agri Drain about a year and a half ago and been loving it.
Trey (01:49):
Awesome. And Scott?
Scott Lukan (01:51):
Yeah. Yeah. We've got obviously a rich history of water management in Agri Drain, and a company that was founded back in 1976. And we were excited to bring on Josh to our team because we've got a great team in Adair, Iowa where we innovate and manufacture these products.
(02:10):
And that's what it's about, is the people in this industry, and the smart things we're doing to bring great new tools to producers and contractors out there. So yeah, it's fun.
Trey (02:25):
Yeah. So people probably know Agri Drain a lot. Prinsco, we make the pipe, but you guys essentially make a lot of the other ancillary support products that work with pipe and different drainage systems, things like that, intakes, Stringer Trailers, bar guards, a lot of that stuff. But also probably something that's most well known is your structures, right?
(02:46):
And that's probably why we're going to get in talking a lot here today about that, and the overall approach to water management, specifically with those structures. So, maybe want to give a 10,000-foot view on what are some of the structures and what are some of the products doing on the landscape when we're looking at a ag field?
Scott Lukan (03:06):
So, I'll start with some of those ancillary products we've always made to keep these tile systems free of debris, make it easy for the contractors out there working hard to install those things are super important. And we keep making those and innovating those.
(03:24):
But yeah, the exciting part is the water level control structures brand is the Smart Drainage System. And we're really excited about what we're doing with the Smart Drainage System. And yeah, Josh, why don't you tell them a little bit more about what we're doing.
Josh Shuler (03:37):
I think the key thing here with water level control structures is manual have been out for a long time and we've had automation out for a long time. And I think a lot of people don't realize that and they don't realize the benefit that it brings to the table, but we can go through and help add on to the benefits of tile. And I think that's a key thing. We're never a detractor. We're trying to add on and enhance what you can do.
(03:59):
It gives us the ability and that lever to really hold back the water when we need it. And I think everybody's, "Well, I want to get rid of it." Well, there's times when you need it and there's definitely periods of time when you need it more than others. And when you have water level control structures, you have the ability to do that, either manually or with automation, we can do it where it takes care of itself. And that's a key thing.
(04:19):
And we've really concentrated, as Scott said, he brought me on to really concentrate on building our automation up, building out a family of products so we can scale in with any producer, whatever their comfort level is, up to and including things that we haven't even invented yet. So we're always trying to also look ahead and be innovative in that as well.
Trey (04:41):
Yeah. And like I said, those manual structures, they've been out there for a while, but it's still kind of interesting for how often that I have to essentially go through and explain when we're talking with either farmers or even contractors.
(04:54):
But essentially, it's just stop logs in your tile system where you can more or less dam up your water, raise your water table to an elevation that you want it. Right?
Josh Shuler (05:03):
Mm-hmm.
Trey (05:04):
And then what you're saying with these Smart Drainage Systems is taking that to the next level and building in kind of that iterative approach there too, is be able to manage that where you want it and when you want it. Is that all fair to say?
Josh Shuler (05:16):
It is, because we know that a lot of these structures are always next to the road., They're easy to access, and when you need to get there. So, that's why we also lean into automation because it allows us to do that hands-free, because setting that level at the proper stage of crop growth is important, is very important.
Trey (05:36):
Yeah. So talk about that a little bit. And I know there's some graphs and research out there for essentially water needs throughout the growing season for essentially corn and soybeans. That's the most popular here in the Midwest, but want to give some of the wave tops. I know you have a nice chart in some of your presentations on that, but can you talk through that a little bit? Essentially, how does precipitation line up with water needs for the crop?
Josh Shuler (05:59):
Well, I'm going to take one step back and say there's periods of time when we definitely want the water to go away. So there's four key periods of the year. I think one of the questions pertaining to this is people ask, "How do I schedule it? What do I know what level to go to?" Well, to the charts you mentioned, as you go through and once I understand that I know the planning date of corn, we'll just pick corn for a topic. I know from that, the length of the hybrid, how many growing days before we really stop setting roots and really start going up.
(06:31):
Each of those periods, I know when to close the gates, what level, what root level I'm shooting for, because early in the spring we want to let it all go. We want to dry the soil down, warm it up, get a nice seed-bed, promote nice deep root growth, establish that because that's key for later in the year when we don't have the water. And then shut the gate and set it at a level, that 18 to 24, 26 inch sweet spot, depending on what crop that you're doing, and try to hold that as long as we can.
(07:01):
We're not manufacturing water, but we're going to hold back everything that we can and take advantage of those late summer rains if we get them for as late in the season because that helps reduce our stress. But where that water is taken from and the profile, I think would surprise a lot of people. Top one and a half to three feet, that's where the majority of the crop uptake is occurring. So, being able to understand our crops and our soils for wherever region you're in, and then setting that automation to hit that at the appropriate time, that's key. Because we can, with our fully remote multi-level, we can actually chase that level up or down on a date. And understand our plan date and the length of our hybrid, that is important.
Trey (07:44):
Yep. So essentially with those two, I guess, pieces of information, you're able to build out a prescription for your tile system, essentially.
Josh Shuler (07:51):
We can essentially set a schedule for the entire year, entire growing season. Now, if you go inside, "I want to adjust something," we can always do that. It's not like it's set in stone that you can do it. And I don't have to move any stop logs to make that happen. That's the other beauty of it. It's taken care of itself, because like I said, accessibility and time, there's that word that people undervalue as farmers, they don't value their time. "Oh, I'll have time for that." Well, they got time for 15 other things. No, they don't. So it's key.
Trey (08:25):
Yep. Then it's a few weeks later and they're like, "Oh yeah, I never did get around to it."
Josh Shuler (08:29):
And when hours and days makes a difference, that's important.
Scott Lukan (08:35):
And I think a key to hit on here is that you can make it as complicated or as easy as you want. And that's what we've been working hard at Agri Drain to do, is make this practice and this product more approachable. You ought to be able to go and, with a brief explanation, install it, set it and forget it for the year as well, if you'd like.
(08:57):
If you want to put more resources into it, the management, get more intensive, you can do that as well. But we want to lower the barrier to entry, where folks realize about any application, you want some sort of management there than just letting it go all the time. It's always a good idea to drain, right? That's always going to be-
Trey (09:25):
That's always going to pay.
Scott Lukan (09:26):
No matter what the weather's going to be later in the year, to drain in the spring is a smart bet most times.
Josh Shuler (09:32):
There's times a year when we only want to drain enough, not all. That's a key distinction.
Trey (09:38):
Yeah. I'll ask you about how it plays out with maybe different water years like we've been having here in the Midwest last handful. But in general, talk about some of the benefits for control drainage, for drainage water management, automation, some of this stuff. I guess in reference to regular tile system, 'cause we've been in business for selling tile for a long time because that it pays and it's essentially selling itself now, too.
(10:07):
Where we're at with some of this water management practices is we don't even know about some of those benefits or really realizing them. But talk about some of that information on how, I guess, either your ROI or how well does these structures and these systems maximize the rest of your drainage system?
Josh Shuler (10:28):
Well, there's several key metrics here. I think a lot of times in the past, we've talked about water quality. Water quality is a key thing that we want to use and highlight and do in every chance that we get. But profitability, yield increases, benefits like that, that's what puts food on the table, right? So if you look at adding a water control structure to most drainage systems, we could get a 5 to 15% additional benefit in yield. It's going to vary from year to year.
(10:56):
Sometimes it's not about the gain, it's about making sure we stop the loss. "When everybody else is having a down year, we've kind of leveled out, and we didn't get the 5% above what we thought we were going to get, but we didn't dip like everybody else did because we had that lever to go in and really control it." So it gives us that lever to do it.
(11:14):
Like I said, with water quality, when you look at it from that perspective, which is what you've heard a lot from the industry for a long time, it's important. Everybody cares about water quality, but they also care about yield. But if you look at water quality, if I'm managing that water appropriately, we know that we can save up to 40% of the nitrate and phosphate removal from the soil that's escaping in the tile system in the field, which is where we want it. That's an investment.
(11:41):
We've already paid the money to put it in there. We want to use it for longer, and we don't want it getting out into the water table and the streams and rivers and things. And then you can start adding practices, saturated buffers, denitrifying bioreactors and things like that. Those are add-ons.
(11:57):
Drainage water management really should be the cornerstone practice that we implement, and it goes in a lot of places that a lot of people don't give it credit for, or they think it's going to benefit a small area when it actually benefits up to an entire drainage system. So as you can tell, I'm passionate about making sure people understand that there's a lot of yield benefit there.
Trey (12:20):
Yeah. And then tacking on that automation to it as well, I know there's some research studies that were presented on here maybe a handful of years ago. And they were showing a yield decrease on some wet years or on a wet year maybe, but that was essentially due to poor management where they knew that water table was high and the water was saturated and none of their rain came, where that water wasn't able to move out as quickly because they didn't manage their stop logs in the first place. And that's where that automation piece comes in. Right?
Josh Shuler (12:50):
Absolutely. Yeah, because proper management of the system, it doesn't matter what piece of technology we're talking about on the farm, right? If you don't use the tool properly, you're not going to get the result that you want.
(13:01):
So when we come in and we properly manage it for the growth stage and things like we talk about, times of year, times when we want to hold it, times we want to let it go, hours and days matter. So with automation, we're given that lever to make sure it happens, even if you're tied up doing 15 other things.
Scott Lukan (13:17):
Yeah. And the product makes it easy, right? At all times, when you install this properly, whenever there's too much water that isn't not only not providing a benefit, but could be a detriment, the tile system works the same way if you weren't managing it, right?
(13:37):
It's still going to flow with the right drainage coefficient. It's still flowing the same way it would. You're holding water below the roots, 'cause you have some space there between your tile and where the plant's roots are most of the time, most of the year. So, there should never be a negative effect. You're only picking up positives.
Trey (14:01):
Yeah. And especially in dry years. And dry years, which we had here a handful of years ago, I know through Iowa was pretty bad here, early 2020s. Now here, the last couple years have been pretty wet. And now, from my perspective, there's a lot of people that have a lot of short memories with, well, kind of the same way, "Why would I install tile? It hasn't rained here in two years anyway." But then now on the flip side is, "Why would I want to hold it back? All we get is rain."
(14:28):
So that's some of the challenges that we have with putting this out there, but that's a good point with essentially preparing for these scenarios too, is the way I think about it is every, say, sub-irrigation system works as a controlled drainage system. Every controlled drainage system works as a regular tile system too, depending on how you management. So you have the ability to build then, as long as you have that planned out on the front end with a lot of these drainage systems as well.
Josh Shuler (14:54):
Yeah. And I think a lot of the dry years started out with wet springs, and when we need the tile, and then you move into the summer, and that's, as you say, people only remember that growing season when it got really dry.
(15:07):
But if we can control that water early in the year, promote deep root growth, really maximize the use of that tile, and then hold back every last drop that we can hold, buys us days and weeks into the growing season.
(15:22):
That lowers the stress and disease levels in those crops and helps hold, if not increase the yields, like we talked about. Sometimes we're not getting giant gains, but we're not dipping like everybody else. We're maintaining that, and that's key.
Scott Lukan (15:40):
Pattern tiling experienced the same challenges of like, "Well, what about with the drought?" Well, even if you are going to have a drought later in the year, it still made sense to tile it, to make that crop more resilient and ready for that drought. It's the same thing with management. You're just amplifying the effects of that tile system you installed.
Trey (16:04):
Yeah, for sure. And being able to, well, to manage that too. I know there's some people that really get either really techy or really controlling on whatever that they have, but now they can do it with tile systems essentially, too.
(16:16):
And again, you mentioned building out some of these product lines for ease of adoption and scalability. I know you're coming out with a couple different versions of some of this automation, some of the tech that's going to be in these structures. You want to talk through some of that stuff a little bit?
Josh Shuler (16:33):
Yeah, we have a new 1,000 series is what we're calling it. It's a locally programmable, locally meaning it's not necessarily connected. It's a Bluetooth, so you can set it up on your phone. It's very easy to set up, very easy to manage, very easy to install. We can do retrofits on a considerable percentage of the structures that are out there and really add automation. So just because you have a manual doesn't mean we can't automate it.
(16:58):
And this system by default is built to be scalable. So, if you want to move up in technology as you gain comfort, or you want to add capabilities, other things come along, we just change the box, the guts, the system don't change, and you just move up the chain of advancements.
(17:15):
But I can't stress enough that we're really trying to lower that barrier to entry as much as we can, make it easy to use. Everybody's got a smartphone, whether it's an Android or an Apple device. Go through an app, interface with it, you don't even have to open the box. You can be within 50 feet of it in your truck if you can access it from that.
(17:34):
And it runs on the schedule, which is based on what we talked about in the chart earlier, what your planning dates are. So I figure that out, get my chart, put in my dates, it's done for the year. If I want to come back and check on it later in the year, I can, but it's going to take care of itself. And we can run up to two gates. So, what that allows us to do is control full drainage and then in season drainage. So, it gives us a lot of flexibility there.
Trey (18:04):
Yeah, and within those structures, too. So you mentioned the original ones, all manual stop logs where you had to lift up each stop log in order to get to your full drainage. That involved getting outgoing to each structure, getting into them, pulling up the stop logs in order to manually control everything. What are the insides of these automated structures or these valves, even the manual valves, what do they look like? What's all going on inside there?
Josh Shuler (18:30):
So, even a manual with a manual slide gate, we call it, is the same guts for the most part as you would have on automation. So we have a manual slide gate valve at the bottom to allow for full drainage. We have PVC logs stacked on that. If you have a second valve, it'd be stacked on top of the bottom, one at whatever level we need to hit, based on the depth of your main.
(18:51):
But the guts between the manual slide gate and a full auto is really just replacing some manuals with the actuators, depending on which system, maybe on the sensor or two. But on 1,000 series, there's no sensors. We can control up to two valves, so it's adding that and moving right on.
(19:07):
It's really a great step. If somebody's not ready for automation yet, they're on that urge, manual slide gate, because it's easy to convert. We want to make sure we fit what you need and what you're comfortable with, but we also are really trying very hard to make sure there's really no more excuses, right? We've lowered that barrier to entry as much as we can. It's a no-brainer.
Scott Lukan (19:32):
Yeah. It's different strokes for different folks, right? If you haven't figured out from this podcast yet, Josh is a bit more technical than me. But I want something that's going to work and that it's approachable, and I can put it in the ground and forget about it. So, I'm going to go more towards the 1,000 series, where I can just pull up in the pickup, open up the app, program it easily on the app, and go.
(20:02):
Josh is the guy here who's going to be up at midnight, seeing where his water level is and the weather coming and he's going to change. I'm going to set it, forget it. And I think for a lot of farmers, that's what they're after, 'cause you're farming 5,000 acres in three or four counties. Set them all and forget it.
(20:24):
But once they're comfortable with that, who's to say, "Okay, now I'm going to get a little more intensive in my management," and you're going to upgrade the tech? The box is already there. The infrastructures, you don't have to dig in the ground again. All you need to do is open that up and maybe change some of the technical parts inside of it.
(20:42):
So I think that's what's really cool, is it's a system that can grow with the land. And we know tile. This is a 50-year practice here, a structural practice, which I don't think we say that loud enough, of how long these investments last to some of the other investors in ag.
Josh Shuler (21:05):
Generations.
Scott Lukan (21:05):
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Josh Shuler (21:06):
Maybe multiple generations.
Scott Lukan (21:07):
Yeah.
Trey (21:07):
Yeah. And having that ability in there to manage that, like I said, whether you don't want to deal too much with the tech and whatnot, but hey, maybe your kids coming up are going to be more savvy in that realm too and want to have that control.
(21:23):
But it gets into how do we set up these systems, whether it's tile, whether it's automation, all this stuff, how do we set it up in the right way for that 50-year investment where it isn't just conventional drainage?
Scott Lukan (21:34):
Yeah. You never want to go back and say, "Man, I wish I would've done it that way." And I hear you say that all the time. What's your saying? Something about doing it the right way first? Start small, do it the right way, you can build on it?
Josh Shuler (21:49):
Oh, yeah. I look at it a little bit as, we start talking generational, the first thing that comes to mind is when you put tile in, it's going to be there for a long time. It's a significant investment. It's generational. So let's make sure we put it in, not just the way we've always done it, but the way that it affords us the opportunities to scale in technologies like water control structures or other things so we can build on that. So do it right the first time. And even if we can't build 100% of it, but 100% of what you can afford and scale yourself into it.
(22:23):
I worked on a lot of projects where they had to phase it, and guys would go through and they would do it while it's 100 degrees, and then come back a few years later and split it. My advocation was always do 100% at the way you want it to be final to start and then build into it.
Trey (22:41):
Yeah. No, that definitely makes sense. One thing I got when we were talking here just a little bit ago, my brain went down a little different rabbit hole. And with talking about essentially managing tile systems on your phone, the analogy that popped into my head is essentially with trail cameras. And now part of that is here it's late October right now and then it's entertaining to look through all that.
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]And that's the same thing with cell cameras came about, now I can check everything that's going on. "Hey, what happened overnight? Where's everything moving?" What's going on now? Versus back, well, I might say dad to grandpa's age, well, you're just going to go out and hunt, but now you have more ability to see what's going on, what animals are where, what's some of that stuff.
(23:28):
And having that ability, like I said, to have that stuff out there. And trail cameras are modulated, you can move them around. It's not the infrastructure stuff that we're talking about, but that might be an interesting or a similar approach to what people can take here in the future, too.
Scott Lukan (23:44):
Yeah. To be able to look back at the history of what was your water table at throughout, and then lay some weather history over it and things like that. You could definitely geek out on that, for sure. And you see some weather coming in and you go to bed and know it's hitting overnight, and then you get up in the morning and see, "Okay, how'd that affect the water level and the structure?"
Josh Shuler (24:10):
Yep. How did the system react?
Scott Lukan (24:11):
Yeah.
Josh Shuler (24:12):
'Cause we can customize the way the system controls on our fully remote systems based on how that system really does react. You can design it for a certain drainage coefficient and expectation, but we all know sometimes that's a little different when it gets into reality.
(24:26):
So, I'm more of set it and don't worry about it. I'll check in and see how things were going, but I'm not concerned about it because we've set it up so that it's always going to keep things they way they ought to be.
Trey (24:36):
It's going to be doing its job?
Josh Shuler (24:38):
Yep.
Trey (24:40):
Talking a little bit about where some of the stuff is applicable, a lot of times you see, yep, flat fields with whatever, 1 to 2% slope with certain soil types and whatnot. I know you guys are doing work at how we can maximize some of those acres and some of that stuff, so maybe want to dive into that a little bit, as maybe even how much land is suitable for drainage water management, control drainage, whatever we're calling it nowadays. And yeah, some of the kind of practices and approaches with how to maximize that area, the effectiveness of these structures and of these practices.
Scott Lukan (25:18):
Yeah. Well, the NRCS says that there's 30 million acres in the Upper Mississippi Watershed that are suitable for this practice, drainage water management, right? And if it's an acre here or there, it's tough to manage. So you want to look for large flat areas. They say 1 to 2% slopes or less than 1 to 2% slopes to effectively manage the water table. You want to look at a management zone where it makes sense to invest, to put in the structure, right?
(25:59):
But when you're talking about cost for an automated structure, starting at just over $5,000 and going up from there as to how big your structure is. It's more expensive on an 18-inch main than it is on an eight-inch main 'cause the size of the structure and what we're handling. It's a bigger structure, more material to put in the ground. But as you automate it, the base level automation is only about upwards 3 to $4,000 of that price.
(26:30):
So, let's say you're at $6,000 for a structure, about 2,000 of it's in the structure, or 6,000 for an automated structure, base level, programmable approach. About 2,000 of that's in the structure, about 4,000 that is in the tech, right? And as you get bigger and grow from there, more bigger structure for a bigger main, that's going to add some onto it.
(26:58):
And then when you desire a more intensive management with a data plan to where you're looking at it on your screen and can actually manage it remotely, and change settings remotely without going to the field, then that adds a little bit, too. But still on that eight-inch main, you're still less than $10,000 with the full-blown automation. So I think you have to look at how many acres do you think you're managing with that. Right?
Trey (27:26):
Exactly. Yeah.
Scott Lukan (27:27):
Yeah. So that's where the ROI comes in. And we have better tools for calculating that ROI now. Would you spend, let's say you've got an eight-inch main there and you're going to start with that $6,000 approach to set it, forget it, and not try to intensively man, just set it to a schedule, which is personally where I would start?
(27:50):
If you're doing that for an 80 acre management area, your ROI might struggle a little bit, right? But you start getting 10, 15, 20 acres in that primary management zone. And just because it's not in the primary management zone doesn't mean that as you rise in elevation out for the rest of that 40 acre field, that it's not getting some benefit as well.
(28:11):
And definitely a water quality benefit, 'cause it's all flowing through there or being held in that bottom primary zone, and rather than putting nitrate down the watershed. So, still a lot of benefit in acres that aren't in the primary zone. So, you start getting $6,000 to manage a 5 to 15% yield over 20 acres, it pays off. It's an even better ROI than the tile you decide to put in the ground in the first place, which we all know is a no-brainer these days.
Josh Shuler (28:49):
Yeah. And I think the other thing about it is we talk about restrictions on slope and we always think about the bottom of the field. Where I come from, there's flat bottoms and there's flat on the hill. You can go and attack both of those. And we have things called inline water gates, where we can actually extend the influence of that one structure.
(29:09):
So instead of putting multiple structures, we have the option where we could put inline water gates, which are submerged, or well, buried. I shouldn't say submerged. Buried water gates that allow us to kind of step into that topography, whether we call them lifts, so a six inch, a 12 inch or 24 inch lift. So we can kind of stair step that in. And you can pick up pockets maybe that aren't that perfect 1 to 2%, where going up and catching a hilltop or something like that.
(29:37):
So, there's definitely options when you look at it, where you extend the influence of that singular investment on a structure. You can buy online water gates, which are going to be cheaper than the structure themselves. They're buried. It's not a secondary thing. Whatever I do here influences those directly. So it's really, I still have one control point.
Trey (29:56):
Yep, one control point, but yeah, you're maximizing your acres that are pushed out further in elevation topography and some of that stuff.
Josh Shuler (30:03):
And that can scale. We could do 3 to 5, we could do 10 water gates. It just really depends on the topography and what you're trying to do, but it's very beneficial.
Scott Lukan (30:13):
And that's the same water gate that we've had that on the market over 10 years. And they're out there doing the work and never been dug up. They're just out there doing it and will continue to do it.
Trey (30:26):
Yep. I know that's something that people get kind of hesitant of, essentially a buried valve in their field. You said they're performing out there, that they've been around for a while. They're still out there active doing what they need to do. Right?
Scott Lukan (30:43):
Yeah. We've really never had a significant amount of calls on them, "Hey, this thing malfunctioned?' I can't think of one in the last handful of years. I'm sure there's been one out there 'cause nothing mechanical never fails.
Josh Shuler (31:04):
Yeah, though we wish.
Scott Lukan (31:05):
But yeah, there are not many occurrences. I'm struggling to say we haven't really had a call. Right?
Trey (31:17):
Sure.
Scott Lukan (31:17):
But there has to have been some failures here or there, but I think they work very effectively.
Josh Shuler (31:25):
When you start introducing inline water gates, I think really the only thing that you have to be aware of is if you have surface intakes. If you have surface intakes, that's something we need to address because we don't want trash getting in there. It'll flush all the standard stuff you'd find in a tile system. You start introducing large matter, that's not good even for the structure.
Trey (31:45):
Right. It's not good for your tile system either necessarily.
Josh Shuler (31:48):
Yeah. Everybody loves blowouts, right? They go dig them back and find that plug? No.
Scott Lukan (31:52):
Yeah. And the water gate's designed during high flow that it flushes itself out. And that's why we don't have issues, it's because the design, what it was invented. So very smart design.
Trey (32:05):
Yeah, for sure. Talk a little bit about retrofits. So obviously, there's tile systems that are out there that are performing the way that they're supposed to perform. How does or how can farmer contractor, is there easy plug and play? Do you have to go back and address all of your designs from jump in order to have, say, a regular conventional tile system work with water management?
Scott Lukan (32:33):
Yeah, I think that the size of the box, there are some limitations there. Really small sized tile in the box, is too small for a valve, but most of your mains aren't going to be six and four inch anyway. So anything eight inch and above, we can go into that box and retrofit. And if it is a manual that you already have installed, we can bring automation. We can put in an actuator and everything needed there. So, that kind of builds on that.
(33:05):
I'm going to take this a little bit different direction. We know what it's like when the crops come out and you've got a small window to get these contractors to get things tiled, right? So, slowing down to put in water management and train a farmer on this and that, you need to be able to just, when you're throwing in that main, throw the box in and you can bring everything else later. Whether it's going to be a manual or it's going to be the highest level of automation, all of it can be done later. Weeks later, months later, years later when you're not as busy. So I think that's important point. I'm glad you brought it up.
Josh Shuler (33:41):
Yeah. And if you've got an existing tile system that has a smaller main, like six inch main, we can always just put a six-inch copper on an eight-inch box. We just limit the size of the box down eight inches for our valves to make sure they work efficiently. But yeah.
(33:56):
And there's a lot of systems out there I think people don't initially think that they could do. They're looking at the staunch restrictions of slope, but every chance we get that we can help control that back and slow that when we want to, that's key. Right?
Trey (34:11):
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's where my head goes too, is like I said, we don't have any structures management necessarily on our farm, but every time that we're out there thinking of ways that, "Where would they go and how well would they work?" And again, "What acres are we picking up with that?" And stuff like that, too. So things like that, that is an option for just regular, again, conventional tile system layout can function with management on it as well.
(34:38):
There's probably some efficiencies you could pick up if you're laying it out ideally from jump, and that's kind of what you're talking about before too, is, "Hey, let's start with this theory of water management in mind and then kind of work back from there." But what about these systems that, again, are already installed for conventional drainage? Is it as easy as tossing in a structure near the outlet?
Josh Shuler (35:00):
Some of them, definitely it is that simple. Others, I think it's going to take a little evaluation. That's something, see the tile map, see the topography, make sure that it is a... We love to sell structures, but we want to make sure it's the right answer. So there is going to be a little bit of evaluation there.
(35:16):
But I will say, and I think more often than not, the answer will be yes, definitely more than what people think. But yeah, there's definitely benefit. And to my point earlier, if you're putting into the system from scratch and designing it in certain ways, it's great. But if it's conventional, something that's already there, it shouldn't scare us to look at that option.
Trey (35:41):
Right. Yeah. And the way that I have been talking about this for a long time, it's tools in the toolbox for what we're doing on the landscape, whether again, that's control drainage, saturated buffers, bioreactors, vegetative buffers, all this other stuff that's out there too.
(35:56):
And say we know that there's some issues with tile water and things that are coming up both from water quality and water quantity issue, but we have these tools that are out there.
(36:07):
And that's kind of the main purpose of this podcast and bringing on folks, the experts in the industry, experts in research for how this stuff is all playing together, and trying to outline some of that stuff. So yeah, that's again, more tools, more education on the matter is all the better.
Scott Lukan (36:24):
Yeah. And obviously, farmers and drainage contractors, they know that there's not a one size fits all to anything in either of those industries, right? I'm just thinking back to the summer at some farm shows talking about different intakes. And one guy loves this one and the other one says, "That's going to plug too much on my land. I need this one that flows." There's never a one size fits all. So, waiting for the perfect time to do it the perfect way, you can't get caught in that trap either.
(36:56):
So, get with your contractor and take a look at your main and take a look at the tile maps he has with you. And chances are there's a management zone that could make sense there, both from a agronomic standpoint and then water quality, because we have to keep defending this industry too, water management and the good things we're doing. And part of that is when we have options to hold water back, especially in the fallow season, to where we're not putting those nitrates in the watershed, we want to be able to do that. So-
Josh Shuler (37:33):
100%.
Scott Lukan (37:39):
I try and look at it as, how often do you really want all the water off your field? What's the average depth of tile around here, would you say?
Trey (37:50):
Three to four feet.
Scott Lukan (37:51):
Yeah. So let's say 42 inches. How often do you want all 42 inches is-
Trey (37:58):
Dry?
Scott Lukan (37:58):
Dry. Yeah.
Trey (37:59):
Not very.
Scott Lukan (38:00):
Not very, but maybe at what, from late June to mid-August, you'd want it lower because that's where your crop roots are. You'd still want to have some water available, but you're talking about two months of the year. And then obviously in the spring, when you're warming up the soils and drying out to do work, but these fields, they can be holding water at all times, which is good for them and it's good for the watershed. Keep it there. Groundwater recharge.
(38:37):
You've got data centers going in all across the country and we're all hearing, "Ah, they use a little bit of water, don't they?" And now, we've got big tech companies, who I won't mention, but are trying to look at ways to, "How do we save more water in certain watersheds where we use a lot of water?" Because the residents there, we realize it's energy and water constraints. So, we have these big fields in the Midwest that can hold water and they can scrub water. These fields are big bioreactors too. Right?
Trey (38:37):
Mm-hmm
Scott Lukan (39:14):
So tiling them and the health that comes with the soil from what we've done is fantastic, and leveraging their holding capacity to do what the soil profile is naturally designed to do is a good thing, too.
Trey (39:36):
Yeah. A whole lot of untapped potential from a water storage standpoint on that, too. I know we talked about the environmental benefits that come with it as well. And a lot of the nitrate reductions come from holding back that water, just holding back the amount of flow. For the most part, letting the soil do its thing, keeping those nitrates there.
(39:54):
And then especially in that fallow season where there's a lot of stuff running off and going through the tile too, that again, doesn't need to be going down the drain, pun intended, but able to, again, hang out of that, keep it in the field.
(40:09):
Again, that's another message that I always like saying, is the goal for a farmer isn't to put more nitrogen down the watershed. They pay to put it on their land in the first place. So let's keep it there. And that's something that, again, tools for help keeping that there and keeping the water there, too.
(40:25):
Same thing with moisture. My grandpa, I think he was the one that was famous for saying it, or at least what my family quotes, is whenever it's getting to a dry part is, he'd always say, "Well, don't worry, it'll rain. It just needs to know when to quit."
(40:41):
So again, having these options for different tools, different tools in the toolbox for different management for the land in respects to water. And again, building in the tech and automation with a lot of this stuff too is really cool to be, I'm sure for you guys, to be on the forefront of that and to continue to develop that, and kind of push the industry into probably this next phase, being able to manage water, not just getting rid of it.
Scott Lukan (41:07):
Yeah, the weather's changing, right? And when you have options, you have adaptability.
Josh Shuler (41:12):
Exactly.
Scott Lukan (41:13):
Right? And how you choose to do that, that's your choice. But I don't claim to know anything about the climate over large swaths of time, but we do know in the last 10 years or whatever that there's more intensive rainfall events, and the time in between those rainfall events is longer, right? So, if you can have options with your water management system, that's how you fight that. Right?
Josh Shuler (41:44):
Yeah. It's the next big lever in the whole precision ag scheme of things that people are... You're looking for hand levers in every aspect of your operation. Everybody's crunching the dollars, looking for ways to save pennies.
(41:58):
We don't want to throw away any investment that we've done, to go down in the drain, and we want to be able to adapt with things at the most fundamental level. Water is the foundation of everything in ag. Everything depends on it. And the proper management of it, this is just one major lever to help you control that.
Trey (42:16):
Yeah. That's the other thing I've been saying for a while too, is there's precision everywhere in agriculture, whether that's with the equipment, with the irrigation, with fertilizer management, all this stuff. Not necessarily within water. Kind of more or less until now, or until recently, where we have that ability to manage what we have going on, especially in the subsurface, on the subsurface of your fields, and being able to have that tool and that resource to continue to maximize all your other inputs.
(42:47):
Because like I said, it's a system. A lot of it's all built on water, and your moisture, you're not going to have a crop without any water. So being able to build all that with a strong foundation and manage all those factors, all of those variables that are out there the most effectively. And that's something cool to be part of, and yeah, I'm sure you guys feel that, too.
Scott Lukan (43:07):
Yeah. There's some cool stuff going on. We have a customer in Southern Missouri that is sub-irrigating through their tile. How many bushel is he getting on that ground? It's over 200.
Josh Shuler (43:19):
Well, you got a boost of about 75 to 80 bushel. Just going from standard practices to adding that.
Scott Lukan (43:26):
And he's pretty manual. I mean, with gas-powered trash pumps and pumping out of a well up through there, but the price of the ground down there and his small investment to do that, he's doing really well. And then you've got some of these, you know more about these than me, some of these drainage water recycling projects where they're digging ponds and putting it back over pivots and that.
(43:49):
You're raising the hurdle for your expense, your investment, you need to have that return, but there's some cool stuff going on with water. We all wish we could make it rain and have anytime we want. And if you want to put in pivots and have that source, great, but not everybody has it. There's lower steps or tiers that you can achieve without going full bore with digging ponds and putting in pivots and things like that.
Trey (44:18):
Anything else that we didn't touch on here yet that's all going on with Agri Drain and the industry, what you guys seeing here moving forward?
Scott Lukan (44:28):
No, we're excited to keep innovating, keep making these products more approachable so that these water management systems function effectively and you have more options with them. That's what excites us and what we want to keep doing for the... That's what we feel our place in the industry is. Right?
Trey (44:49):
Mm-hmm.
Scott Lukan (44:50):
Is bringing better products for everybody that makes what we do. This is a great industry. These are great people. We're doing great work along with ag, but even outside of ag, stormwater and public lands, wetlands, things like that. Just taking care of the land, it's an obligation we all have and it feels right.
(45:14):
And we need to keep innovating with these products that help the contractors putting these things in, and the landowners that want to do what's best for their land and their pocketbook. These things, they go hand in hand. So yeah, we're fired up about that and where we can take our products in the next 10 to 20 years.
Trey (45:34):
Couldn't agree more. It's been fun. We were talking about this here earlier this morning, of it's a fun time to be part of this industry with a lot of stuff going on. And a lot of good people that are doing a lot of good work, and companies that are putting out a lot of different innovative solutions out there, too.
(45:51):
Yeah, like I said, fun to be part of and fun to work with you guys, as well as many others within the industry, too. And thank you for coming on and sharing more about the tools in the toolbox for what you all have working on and some of the new innovation that's coming out here soon, as well as I'm sure will continue to come out and keep driving this industry forward.
Josh Shuler (46:15):
I can't help but smile, but I'm always looking for the next step.
Trey (46:17):
The next step, the next problem, next challenge?
Josh Shuler (46:22):
Always listening. We're always working on it.
Scott Lukan (46:24):
And I'm always looking to keep it simple. Right?
Josh Shuler (46:27):
Sometimes you guys do something wrong.
Scott Lukan (46:31):
No, thanks for having us on, Trey.
Josh Shuler (46:33):
Appreciate it.
Scott Lukan (46:33):
It's been fun and we always appreciated time to chat with you.
Trey (46:37):
Yep, absolutely. Thanks a lot guys.
Josh Shuler (46:38):
Appreciate it.
Scott Lukan (46:39):
Thank you.
