Elizabeth Ballinger and the work of Trish Arnold.

In this episode Lizzie and Robert discuss the work of Trish Arnold, teaching in lockdown and the potential politics of transformation. Lizzie can be contacted at elizabethballinger@yahoo.com and if you would like to talk to Robert : robertprice1869@gmail.com 

Transcript

Unknown Speaker  0:00  
Yeah,

Elizabeth Ballinger  0:00  
it's tragic. It's tragic and that the saddest thing was that I was a bit gagged we were all a bit gagged. I couldn't speak to the students I couldn't really email anyone and explain I couldn't say sorry to the students that I taken halfway through a journey and that that were fully intending me to carry on to the end of their journey. I wasn't able to to be respectful to them, and I that was really hard. That was really hard.

Robert Price  0:27  
Hello, and welcome to the history of actor training in the British drama school. This week, I'm delighted to have as my guest Elizabeth Ballenger, Lizzie Ballenger? Liz is a friend and a colleague and an extraordinary movement teacher who works in the tradition, the lineage of Tricia Arnold. So sit back and enjoy this one's quite a long podcast I'm putting this one out as a single as a single along single. So maybe if you if that's if you think it's a bad idea, let me know. But anyway, here we go. A Conversation with Elizabeth Ballenger. Enjoy. Anyway, let's let's get on a more a more enjoyable journey. So you just mentioned 22 been a 20 year journey for you to to understand or assimilate the work to have it. So could you could you take us back? I haven't. I think we've actually introduced you so quickly. Welcome to the podcast. This week. I'm talking to Elizabeth Ballenger. Lizzie Ballenger? Lizzie has been a colleague of mine for a long time. When did we first meet? I remember having urata Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  1:38  
yeah,

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:38  
probably 1000 2000. And I think I joined there as a on a sort of placement in 2008. Yeah, sometime around that. Yeah. Even quite terrifying. When I first got there.

Robert Price  1:52  
I was terrifying. Yeah, no, no, no, no, I can't I don't believe that at all. And and then we were colleagues at lambda from a year later, a couple of years later. I can't assume Yeah,

Elizabeth Ballinger  2:03  
see about 2000. Well, I think I started at lamda. Yeah. Great.

Robert Price  2:10  
Good. And so how did you let's let's then restart at the beginning and go forward. So should we start it? Why don't we start for the crack? Why don't we start with you at Rada. So so 2012. You you join that institution? Where have you been before that will go backwards. So I've never done that before.

Elizabeth Ballinger  2:30  
2012 I started at lambda so 2000 and 2006 to 2008. I was doing my MA at Guildhall, so MA in movement training for actors. So it was after just on the back of that, that I started at Rada, which was Yeah, sort of ridiculous and incredibly lucky to walk into that job straight after graduating. Yeah, so that was the first training at Guildhall. We were the first year of cohorts. It was a new Ma, that Patsy had set up and Wendy owner, she was head of movement at the time. And I was in fact, I'd applied for the voice of really keen to do voice. Yeah. And in the audition, I was desperately trying to impress the Patsy. And Wendy kept asking me questions about my background, you know, obviously I'd put in a CV and things about, like, I used to do dressage, and I did Thai boxing, and lots of physical things. And she just kept sort of probing me and I was like, No, I want to talk to Patsy about the voice. And they basically phoned up after the interview and said, you know, we don't think you should do voice we think you should do movement. And I was a bit like, Oh, all right, then. Why not? Yeah, I don't really know what it is. Um,

Robert Price  4:04  
well, that I didn't I had no idea about. So. So you but you were an actor? Yeah. Amazing. I mean, that's the way life works. Isn't it often? So you were you were an actor at that point? Yeah,

Elizabeth Ballinger  4:14  
I was an actress I trained at Manchester met in the late 90s. Gosh, I even remember and yeah, three Yeah, did the did the three year course. And it was I guess I didn't really know what movement was because it was also integrated the training a man that was was so you just moved all the time. There was Alexander in work in everything. There was voice work and everything and it felt I'd be maybe that students experience now. Maybe it's the same for students now. I don't know. But it sort of just flowed. I mean, I think there were things that were lacking as an actor training like the

Unknown Speaker  4:57  
the

Elizabeth Ballinger  4:58  
real specificity and detail That even my voice teacher at the time, said that there wasn't enough sort of precision in the training. But the fact that movement and voice and Alexander work and then interacting just all blurred sort of moved quite beautifully. What I ended up being offered this place at Guildhall, I was a bit like, really sure what movement is like, how do you train to be? What is it? Like? Why would you? I don't really remember movement classes. I mean, I think I'd only I do remember things like five rhythms, which I've never getting very fed up movement classes or whatever sort of dancy things or contact implementations we were doing. I used to. I loved it and hated it at drama school. So it was interesting. Yeah, when they sent me a movement person.

Robert Price  5:51  
That's amazing. And maybe when you said precision, could you? What do you mean by that? Precisely, just I'm fascinated.

Elizabeth Ballinger  5:59  
I think AI is a sort of structure, the training, and it didn't quite have enough structure, like I vaguely remember doing some sort of dialect work, but it just really briefly touched on it. Trish Bailey was my voice person, she's a Canadian woman, she did work quite closely with Patti. And so there was lots of really good voice work. But, but it never really, I never made the shift of into text. So I never really understood how voice and movement actually helped you in the rehearsal or in the, with the text or with the language or with the physicality of a scene. And so, one thing that I've really taken from the training was that my body was was sort of effortlessly open and responding, and impulsive, and breath. And, you know, all those things, because we did so much movement, whatever movement was movement and voice and Alexander it. It was a sort of lovely, embodied sensation, but I don't feel that I knew how to actually put that translate any of that into acting or use it as a skill. I think that's what it is being able to use the craft I've been given as a as a skill to, to inform what I'm doing in the rehearsal

Robert Price  7:32  
room. And do you think, do you think you're right? I mean, do you think that that was sitting inside you? So do you think there was an embodied knowledge? Which would you had and that understanding how to apply it was unnecessary? Or do you think there was actually a gap?

Elizabeth Ballinger  7:48  
I think there was actually a gap. I mean, it's so when I came to my MA training, I was being told quite regularly not to explain anything to students. And you just I mean, it's a Tricia Arnold, you know, lots of reputable practitioners work like that they don't need to you don't need to explain what you're doing to people, you just do it and they just take it on and embody it and then it translates. And I I struggled with that in my MA I was a bit like biter. I guess because I'd had this experience at drama school where I was embodying all this work, but not really knowing why or how to use it or to have any grasp on it, you know, like you were saying earlier about the actor wanting to give the actor a skill that they can use and take with them not just do it in the moment and then it leaves them you know, I want I want to take that skill with me and I want to be able to apply it in everything I do whether I'm on a huge stage or in a tiny black box or in front of a camera or making up my own device work or in the pub earning my hourly rate. You want to have that skill. And so I guess it's this battle of understanding and embodying

Unknown Speaker  9:07  
which

Elizabeth Ballinger  9:09  
I think I probably still battle with a bit Hmm, well, definitely how much to explain and how much not to explain how much to trust the work and how much does it actually help the actor to understand what they're doing? So whether Manchester I don't know whether that was a choice, you know, I mean, ever brilliant is like Neve doubting I mean, she's, you know, she's completely brilliant. And, and Trish was brilliant. And the acting teachers were I thought they were all great, but I don't know Trish Bailey. Sorry. Just the voice

Unknown Speaker  9:45  
person. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth Ballinger  9:50  
So yeah, I was an actor and I worked for a bit and

Robert Price  9:54  
but you hadn't encountered Trish Arnold's work at Manchester then? I see. I always assume that. I've been I always, always, always assume that work can be a part of your work as a as a drama student, and then you've been involved throughout throughout your career. But that's really, that's really interesting. So amazing. You went to Guild Hall thinking about being a voice teacher, and they said, we think you should try to be a movement teacher.

Elizabeth Ballinger  10:18  
Yeah, I was 31. And I was, you know, I'd worked, I'd done a bit of acting, and I gave up and I just got a much better with the crew. And, you know, I love the social life of it. But I didn't really want to be on the stage. And I'd worked in psychiatric wards for years, and it sort of nearly gone mad. So when I ended up at Guildhall, and they offered the move replace, I was like, Well, yeah, all right, then why, I mean, it really wasn't a sort of too much of a considered, it's just, I need to do something, I need to go somewhere with my life, I need to get some more training, I need to, I need to get and I've always loved the theatre, what the theatre offers. So I just took it. And so it's only in that first term really, of trading at gilt all that people kept saying, Oh, you, you move Really? Well. You're such a beautiful mover. And honestly, no, I had no idea. I had no idea that I had a scale moving. Yeah, or, or an understanding of way to release and breath. And I had no idea who Trish Arnold was. And I just was dropped in as this first student and Metro straightaway at the beginning of the training, and she gave me some one to ones I had to go off to her flat in Kilburn. And yeah, just got thrown in the deep end, really, and discovered the, how amazing the world was. And yeah, I'm still here now. Just

Robert Price  11:50  
amazing. So how long was the How long was that? Ma?

Elizabeth Ballinger  11:54  
It was two years, two years, it was meant to be two years part time. But you just threw yourself in and, you know, followed all the actors around went to every movement class, I went to all Patsy's classes as well, I just left back in I love the fact that I was back training back in a back in a drama school and back in a in a learning environment that as a, you know, in my early 30s, no, not in my early 20s. And, and even those 10 years made a huge difference. So I just soaked up everything I went to every class you could imagine. I just did everything. Yeah, and learnt it and followed Wendy around. And she she is brilliant. And she is what I've observed how she taught. And I guess it's the learning how to teach is the interesting bit. And that's, you know, I know you did the central core sets. You could observe endlessly, but actually to learn how to teach is something that you do after your training, you then have to sort of learn on the job, and you learn through lots of mistakes, and you have those three years of just not having a clue what you're doing, really. and discovering, just discovering how to pass on what you've experienced and what you understand in your body. And how do you pass that on to other people. And I think that bit of my my work only then really, really deepened when I went to lambda. So I was at Roger to start with a mouth view. I was doing lots of work at Mountain View lots of work at Dharma centre, you know, as a new teacher, you're sort of running around everywhere. By actually got asked by the RSC, I've met Jerry Leslie, he was up there as head of movement. And he asked me to go work at the RSC with him. And I said, Oh, I just I just had that to have my first child just hang on. And then the lambda job came up ahead of movement at lambda. And Wendy said, Oh, you should apply. So I checked my application for men. And it was Jane Gibson was on the panel at lambda. And then they phoned me up a couple of days later and said, we're not going to give you a head of movement. But we would like you to come to lambda and teach and we're going to pay for Jayne Gibson to mentor you for two year mentorship. And I guess I yeah, I had these sort of amazing options. Jen Gibson when I was at Guildhall, Jen Gibson was this figure of real? Everyone just looked up to her. She was a sort of amazing movement director. No one had really met her I certainly hadn't met her before. She was the first mentee of Trish Arnold was head of movement at the National what you know, Associate Director of cheek by jowl and so I was quite amazed that actually she was going to wanted to train me and lamda we're gonna support that. And I had this position at the RSC that I could have taken so I had a really difficult

Unknown Speaker  14:59  
choice

Elizabeth Ballinger  15:00  
that went with the Jayne Gibson one because I just thought they're getting much more detail in the in the work and learning how to teach it on a deeper level, which would be really valuable.

Robert Price  15:15  
Why do you Why do you think lambda invested in you in the teaching in that way? What was what was? Because that's quite a thing, isn't it to be given a two year mentorship, supported entirely by an institution? What What were they? Was that was that something they saw in you? Or was that to do with the fact they wanted to work to be part of the training? What do you know what the thinking was there?

Elizabeth Ballinger  15:34  
I think two things. And I think, because there is this strong lineage of movement work at lambda. So Tricia node was there in the 50s developed all of her work at lambda. And she passed it on to Jay Gibson, who was also there as an apprentice and and then carried the work on Outlander. Rodney was taught in that style of movement work style is probably the wrong word. Johnny Baxter, who was the head of movement was taught by Jane, there was a real strong sense of that work in the building. Anyway. But there had been a little gap where this particular work hadn't actually been taught there because Jamie left and went out into the profession. And other things came in, you know, equally wonderful things. And I for some reason, I don't know why they got Jane onto the audition panel. I don't know maybe that was a Rodney sharks, it would have been Joanna at the time, who was principal?

Robert Price  16:44  
And we when we talk about Rodney, we're talking about Rodney.

Elizabeth Ballinger  16:47  
Yes. Yeah.

Robert Price  16:48  
who's currently still lander, though, I think, I think leaving soon and Rodney was the head of the acting course. Everybody's had various positions over the over the over the years, but I'm a social school. Head of Drama school. Yeah. But but sort of almost the, almost the spirit of lambda for for quite some time.

Elizabeth Ballinger  17:10  
Yeah, indeed. So whether it was him that had got Janan? I don't know, actually, but um, she was on this audition panel. And I think they were quite keen to get that work back in to lambda to follow on the lineage tradition.

Unknown Speaker  17:31  
You know,

Elizabeth Ballinger  17:32  
I mean, not not just because of the lineage in the tradition because the work works.

Robert Price  17:37  
And presumably, they were seeing an absence, presumably what they had identified with something they thought was missing from the training. I mean, that would be my Yeah, you'd hope? Wouldn't you think that would be the thinking? Yeah,

Elizabeth Ballinger  17:46  
yeah. Yeah. And then I think the second part of it was that Jane has been on quite rightly with it. I mean, James was saying it about yet that people can be very protective about their work. And Jane had been very protective about her work and hadn't passed it on to anyone. And I think she got to a point in her career, where she felt it was actually important to pass the work on. So she, obviously I don't know, saw me in the audition. And so I could move, or I decided that I was the one that she wanted to pass the work on to. And knowing that I'd been at Guildhall and that I'd worked with Trish anyway. And I had some understanding of the work. So yeah, I mean, it was quite a remarkable thing. It's a it's a big investment. It's a lot of money. It's a lot of financial investment. It's it was a really unique thing. I don't think it has happened anywhere before for them to for a drama school to actually commit to training on the job training. A teacher Yeah, in order for them to embed the work really deeply into into the school. And that's essentially what happened. I mean, the mentorship went on for over three years. And I taught lots, and lots and Stoke carried on teaching at Rada. And yeah, then the mentorship, finished and jet. I mean, to this day, I still check in with Jane and she used to come and watch my classes at lander every now and then and just just sort of keep keep on top of it. Until obviously, very recently, where I'm now no longer at lambda. But I think Jane, I think there's still a connection. You know, I don't know how much the the work will continue that but I think there are still links with the work.

Unknown Speaker  19:56  
Yeah, what's that really

Robert Price  20:00  
Maybe at the end of the interview, we can we can return to, to the, to the end of your time at lamda because that's a that's a story I'd like to talk to you about. I would be interested to know how that happened and and what you think about that. But because this podcast is concerned with the history of of actor training, and now we have a sense about your journey from from student of Manchester to actor to, to doing the PMA Guild Hall finding tissues work What's it What's your ma at Guild Hall in Tricia, his work was that most of the training or a big chunk of it or?

Unknown Speaker  20:36  
Yeah,

Elizabeth Ballinger  20:36  
pretty much yeah, it's the Guildhall training at the time was very much about cherishes work. So once so Trish had been teaching at lambda for many, many years was head of movement She then went over to Guildhall and was head of movements at gilt or So then she sort of passed on the work to various people there like Sue left and Jackie snow Wendy or not, who then carried on Wendy took over as head of movement Danny McGrath as well. So the the the ethos behind the movement work at Guildhall was absolutely based on Trisha Arnold's work and, and, you know, like it all trainings that whoever's doing the work puts their own sort of flavour in it. And Wendy is a was an actor, brilliant actor herself and is a great director. And she, she took the work and, and connected it to acting and did lots of projects, but but the movement work sort of filtered into everything, which was brilliant, and it was absolutely brilliant. So you had sort of Patsy's work and Wendy's work that that fed the whole of the training. So I think I was very lucky to be there at that time, because I yeah, I again, I'm not sure if guild is like that so much now, but you know, it's a thing, it's a different thing. It's may have its own brilliance now. But at the time, I felt very lucky to be involved in those two very established training ethos. how you'd explain it.

Robert Price  22:17  
All that training is really hard to talk about, isn't it? It's, it's, it's something that I'm realising even more and more talking to people because we can, we can sort of sketch out history as we can we can talk about where people came from or what they did, or, but I think it's really difficult actually, to articulate what what this thing is that, that we all teach a notoriously difficult. So let's have a go. I think it would be really good, good fun to try and try and get somewhere with this question. Because I know when I was an actor, for instance, and when I was a voice teacher, I sort of I don't think I understood any of it. I don't think I don't think I understood voice work. I don't think I really understood what an acting class was. I certainly didn't understand what a movement class was. I know what a coaching session is. And I know what a choreographer is, and those things are really, really clear. So maybe we should is that somebody sewing? Yeah, I've

Elizabeth Ballinger  23:06  
got an X. Sorry. That's okay. And extension. is hell. I mean, I've asked the butcher keep the noise down, not do any insane drilling. So, yeah, that might be the

Robert Price  23:19  
comic comic swing. Okay. And it's good. Maybe so plank will come come over your head down. Also sounds better people having sex next door. Anyway.

Sorry, yeah. Okay, very good. That's good. That's reassuring. Um, so let's talk about so so Trish Arnold's work now I've got a feeling that of the sort of the big bunches of work that would go on in drama scores. I think, I've got a feeling that Trisha his work might sort of be some of the least well known or that her maybe hair is a self publicist, or that is a label is not something that people have an understanding for. They will they might know about Alexander Technique. They might have heard of Kristen. They might even know something about certainly laburnum maybe, yes, but I think the Trish work is a little bit lower on people sort of radar. So so let's let's talk about Trish. So we've, who were who was channelled, where did she come from? What was she? What was she up to?

Elizabeth Ballinger  24:20  
So she Trisha No, she was born in 1918. And she in Scotland, and she trained as a classical ballet dancer at the Sadler's Wells ballet. She worked as about as a classical dancer for a few years with the Royal Ballet Company. In fact, I've found a copy of her CV the other day and she says on her from 1976 and she says she worked on film, she worked in theatre, as adults as a ballet dancer, so she's got quite an extensive career as classical dancer. She then has gotten married, had children and then post children, she started to teach ballet to young people, and realise that she was just a bit bored with it. And it was. She saw a little clip of her speaking about it the other day. And she said it just felt really unnatural, teaching this very restrained style to small children. And so she, I think, started sort of exploring other avenues. And through a friend, she met Sigurd leader, who was I think he called himself a modern dancer at the time. So this is sort of 30s 40s 1940s.

Maybe later, no,

but it must be a bit later. Yeah, it must be late 40s, early 50s. Yeah, Sega data she met in early 50s. And she then joined his dance company. And the next day, this is why I'm hopeless at these things, because I just can't remember names and date.

Robert Price  26:13  
Not a problem doesn't matter.

Elizabeth Ballinger  26:14  
He said something like the modern dance school. He was in London, you know that they're all so sick. He later worked with Kurt yars and Darden, and they were all part of this Dartington crew. So the it's interesting hearing James's talk about Yat and Christopher and all those, all those connections, they're all part of they're all part of the same movement, say movement. So sacred later that and Kurt yoss did that the very famous piece the green tables at Green table, and it gets called. And then Sigurd, later came to London set up his own school, and that's where Trish ended up. And she trained with him for two years. So because of the connections to the work that Sega later have done with loreburn, and he, it was all about swings and weight and free flow. I mean, again, just mirrors all the things that James was talking about with the axe work. And, and Trish absolutely adored it just found it. So she talks when you used to hear her talk about simulators, she would light up just how different it was to the classical style. So she did that for a couple of years. And then it was the lambda connection came because Michael, so you'll have to help me on names again, under pressure. I can't come anyone's name. No, no, no, no, Norman

Robert Price  27:47  
McCowan? Yes.

Elizabeth Ballinger  27:48  
And Norman. They approached second later because obviously there's all those connections they used to get later they there will be connections with the Old Vic school and let space go. They approached regulator and said, Do you have anyone who you think might be interesting to teach movement at lambda, and Sega data suggested Trish. And so she went off to have an audition at lambda with Michael and northern. And she did a couple of swings because of their work and history and relationship with Michelle's on Denise and all that connection. They've thought brilliant, yeah, great, and employed Trish to teach movement. And this, this is a sort of interesting back to church because she was a dancer, she hadn't even thought about breath or the voice and when she turned up at lambda and started teaching, it was Iris Warren. So there's a famous quote from Trish that Iris Warren turned up reader in her class, both of dominating formidable woman and said, I hope you're not going to do anything that stops them breathing. And and Trish admits that she hadn't even thought about the breath she was a dancer hadn't thought about the voice. So basically, she learned on the job. She learned she she adapted all of the work that she understood from sacred later and she had worked with as a modern dancer, and translated it for the actor and made all of the movements enable the actors to breathe and speak and and find the fluidity to express with spoken word as well as through the body. And that's Yeah, that she she just carried on at lambda and develop the work and ended up being head of movement. All during that period, because I think northern was head of movement when Trish was there. And then Trish took over from Norman

Robert Price  29:55  
and Norman became Prince

Elizabeth Ballinger  29:56  
Norman became principal Yeah. And then all during those those years sort of late, I think it was 55. She ended up at lambda and then on until late 70s, she that's where she met Kristin Linklater, because Kristen came back to lambda Kristin was taught by Trish, although Kristin herself says she doesn't really remember much of the work with Trish as a student. But when she came back to lamda, to teach, and she obviously started to understand and work alongside Trish. And they, they basically developed a whole body of work to do with the body and the voice together and question then when she went off to America, and set up the Shakespeare Company of Shakespeare and Company, and he taught in Massachusetts, are there comments? or questions? Wonderful, so maybe Minnesota that zone you know, amazing developments in her her work, she employed Trish. So she took Trish with her, shipped over to America and, and and did all of the workshops, the Stratford Festival. Trish was over there quite a lot. So that this, in fact, the book that I'm putting together about all this work, Kristin gave me a lovely quote, just before she died actually about the work that her interests were doing at lambda and how most of Christians work on freeing the actor's voice the body side of it comes from Trisha has movement work. And Kristen, still use worked with a woman called Mary Conway in America. And Mary still, even now is continuing that sort of collaboration of body and voice and, and runs workshops and things.

Unknown Speaker  31:52  
And

Elizabeth Ballinger  31:54  
so that was one aspect of Trisha, his work was the connection to voice and Christian. She worked a lot at the Royal Court. So she became quite a big movement director, but the directors were were, you know, she shipping around, she did loads of work at the Royal Court. And she also set up common stock, which with Frank Witten, which is a really first community theatre. So Trish was a co founder of that. So she was really popular and dynamic and was sort of in the main, you know, globally, like internationally. She was all over the place, doing this incredible work.

Unknown Speaker  32:41  
But no, not really.

Elizabeth Ballinger  32:43  
That's what's weird.

Robert Price  32:45  
Yeah. So just, I just, I'm really interested. So so going back a little bit. So she's, she's she, she's audition for lambda, or interviewed for the job at lambda. They're looking for something at the time. And I think this is something that I've got to understand more and more is that is that the rich tradition or the other way of doing things that that we were a part of, was part of a desperate search. I think during those middle that middle of the 20th century, it wasn't that there's been a kind of handing on handing on from the setting up of router in central it's that there was I think dissatisfaction and even a crisis in in British theatre, mostly actor led actually or actor investors what then became directed to lead and the drama schools were people like Michael McCowan, they didn't know how to do it. I mean, the Old Vic school did close the the London theatre studio close. Michael Chekhov had gone to America from Seton Hall, calm as a jetski had gone back to America. So all of these interesting sort of people who offered some kind of hope for a British theatre that would be like an European Art Theatre, like the, the theatre of the French. They've seen all the Russians. I think that's what the people wanted, and didn't know how to do it. So Michael McCowan wants to set up a drama school, which was in some way replace the Old Vic school. And they started looking for people, they start trying to find a way to assemble that and there are some people who have worked with Michel Santoni. And they go to those people, but they don't actually know what they're doing. I think they know they're full of intelligence and art and, and knowledge, but they don't actually know how to train a whole actor. So Trish walks in, they see something in her and she starts she starts teaching and what she's teaching is related to a form of contemporary dance. Is that is that what you would

Elizabeth Ballinger  34:34  
call that modern day? Yes, really? Yeah, modern dance. Yeah, that has come out of that and has worked, you know, has connected to connects to Narbonne. That's, you know, the

Unknown Speaker  34:45  
other important link, I

Robert Price  34:46  
think, that's the link. So she's teaching that work and I suppose Michael McCowan and normally I'm hoping that that will create actors who are as improvisatory and free and and creative and sort of I mean, you read about the things that sundanese companies did, and it just sounds so you know, extraordinary total theatre, physical theatre, I suppose, are on the on a tear, that sort of type of stuff. But she doesn't. So that's what they're hoping from her. So she starts teaching classes, and she's teaching a dance class. And then we have this, Iris Warren comes in, and she, and they have a conversation. And obviously, it must have resonated with her. So she must have then watched people acting and realise that that was a good note or a more than a note. But yeah, a really crucial thing to understand. So then she's, what when she's teaching, what is she hoping will will happen? What she tried to do to the actors in her class? And in fact, what are you doing? So when you meet first, your actors, and you've inherited this and develop this, this tradition? You've got this work, you've got swings, you've got all kinds of vocabularies? What are you trying to give them? Or what are you trying to, to? To turn them into what what's actually happening in that work?

Elizabeth Ballinger  36:02  
Well, I think at the beginning, in the very early stages you're trying, I mean, this is so hard,

Robert Price  36:12  
is that I know, I know, I'm

Elizabeth Ballinger  36:13  
not trying to write this book, it is just, you know, it's ridiculous. Because I could do the work, I could do it, I could do it in my body. But words it becomes it just all sounds. So it just makes, it makes it sound so sort of futile. It's not. So sometimes it's best just not to speak about it. I mean, I guess, if I was trying to try to really keep it simple, it would be about connecting them to weight, giving them an opportunity, so they can understand the weight of their body. And that is where release, that's where they'll discover release. And that's how they'll begin to let go of tensions that are unhelpful. I mean, this is, you know, talking to you. So you don't know this, but you clearly this is the same in invoice to a certain extent. I mean, your your piece that when you were reading about Kristin Linklaters views on how to act to train an actor that would be it would be exactly the same, exactly the same for the body, you just you, you start with yourself, you connect a weight to you think about alignment, you think about placement. I mean, this phrase comes up quite a lot. Good placement. tricky, because, you know, it suggests that there's bad placement. But yeah, there is, I mean, there is unhelpful placement, that affects expression coming out freely with clarity.

Robert Price  37:38  
Mm hmm.

Elizabeth Ballinger  37:40  
So yeah, that early stage, that's what you're trying to do get back together to understand that there are unhelpful tensions in us all, find a little bit more alignment, strength, strength is really important. You know, the right sort of muscularity, the strength around the spine, for me, personally, I really get them connected to their spine, get them to, to feel the centre of the body. And then you start sort of playing with with free flow with swings, because they're all about weight and space and that relationship of near to far, they start to, to give you an understanding of Breath of breath, that releases effortlessly that links into the spoken word. The swing connects you out into space, you know, think thinking about audience thinking about space behind you. I guess that would be all the sort of early part of the training and then and then when the body's in a place where they they have a bit more understanding of their own body or they have a little bit more. Control isn't the right word. But yeah, I think that the body is working for them rather than against them, they have choice when you want them to have choice, don't you? I could choose to do this, I choose to do that, that then they can then they can be incredibly playful, then then you you you know, by the time I get to the second year, they've had a really rigorous year of training. And and they it really does shift in the second year that the movements become more dynamic. I use a lot of little desk work as well because that's what Jane has passed on the trician and analytic test. And, and they they they do some some movement work at it, and then it frees them to the last part of the class where they improvise and play and create and we use text quite a lot. Yeah, and that is a whole other world of, you know, areas that you can go into like mask work and animal work. I do. I used to do all the animals At lamda, I used to do it at Roger, I don't anymore, because I don't have the time. So you could take it into all these other areas you can focus on on sort of what's considered movement. What did they call it lambda? It's a bit more specific. It's like, you might work on elements. So you might work on deadly sins, or you sort of focus it into into a particular area. Does that?

Unknown Speaker  40:29  
So?

Robert Price  40:31  
Yeah, we're on a, we're on our way up ready? So totally. It makes it makes it makes lots of sense. I mean, it is difficult, it is difficult to talk about. But if we're, yeah, if we're talking about weights, and what it means to move that, that into a more dynamic place of expression, but still holding on to that, I mean, I think that's crucial, because the moment that performance hit so the moment that needs to do something hits that inevitably produces often huge amounts of tension in all kinds of places, which is parasitic and, and unhelpful. So I think that's a lot of what we're all doing. Training is getting people into a place where they can work from you just generate job attorney, call a good use or call it waiter, whatever you call it, but it's it's it's it. Although, although we only have words to describe it, when you see it, or when you have an experience of it, it's palpable. And it's powerful. And it's and it's clear. So that, that that the the worker mask and the work on animal studies, that work, I suppose also comes from Suzanne beings teaching, there are multiple routes in it. Yes,

Unknown Speaker  41:39  
yeah. Yeah.

Elizabeth Ballinger  41:40  
I mean, I think Patricia was the Michelle Santoni aspect. It was being in lambda and being around all those, those that people who are absorbed and had worked with Michelle's on today and we're, we're carrying on that tradition. She She soaked it all up there. She did end up going and working with Jacques macaque for a bit she did a three month long course or something with Jacques macaque so that she did some evening workshops with lips piske she, you know, as as we all do, we soak up what we can get, but I think the mask and the animal work, yeah. came out of the Michelle Santoni. tradition.

Robert Price  42:16  
Yeah, I guess. Yep. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think there's a there's a teacher called Suzanne being is often mentioned now, who works with capo Yeah, and who is, is probably generated or originated some of that work. This swing? So in a way if we were talking, I mean, maybe this is, I think it's okay to be simple, isn't it? We can we can get somewhere with this simple thing. So when I've watched your work, and when students do your work, the swings seem to be a sort of a signature part of it. Would that be fair to say

Unknown Speaker  42:45  
lately?

Robert Price  42:46  
Yeah, yeah. And so the swings come directly from I forgotten his name, but he did leave. Sick. Leave. Yeah, yeah. sick leave sick later. So that's, that's, that's, he did they were kind of his work. Yes, I found his

Elizabeth Ballinger  43:02  
work in the sense that he that he worked with Kurt yoss, who also worked and worked with loreburn. So they all they're all, you know, the, they're all talking about the same thing, their sense of free flow instead of the bound, held presented forms of movement or dance. So Trisha was once say that she she's never, you know, I'm writing the books and she's pernot pioneered all this movement work but but Trish would say I you know, I didn't I didn't invent this I I've just developed it from from centre zone. So that's what we all do.

Robert Price  43:42  
Hmm. But she at least does develop that work and makes it something which is for an actor training rather than for a dance training. And is there is there more to that than I mean, in terms of how you would note that or the other way you would lead it or when you when you when you embody it for people what is it you're embodying? Is it we breath is one part of it? is there is there more than that the difference between dancing training dancer and training and an actor? What are the what are the differences there?

Unknown Speaker  44:10  
Well,

Unknown Speaker  44:13  
yeah,

Elizabeth Ballinger  44:13  
so I think for me I can so I just if you look at this film that Mary Conway did have Trish Arnold, she made a film but partly because it's so hard to articulate in written form. Yeah, this work and and it does sound very simplistic when you talk about it and it absolutely isn't simplistic. When when she's interviewing various movement, people on this film they all talk so beautifully about the swing they really, Jay Gibson talks with such articulation about it su Lefton Shona, Morris they all they all have this understanding of the swing. I I just don't feel I could talk about it, but I, it sort of moves me, that's all I can say is that on a personal level, it they, they have all the humanity in them. So what I absolutely adore about the work is the playing with the drop and the suspension, this, this release of weight and, and the sort of natural rebound that comes out, when you let go of weight, you naturally rebound out of it back away from gravity. And, and for me in in that, in those moments is is is hope and despair. And that's, it's that sense of just giving up and giving in and that you just spring back into a place of hope and into the next impulse and into the next moment. And, and the swings have it and the swings, they connect your your centre of your body, your your sensation, your thought, your feeling or emotion. They connect everything internally and externally. Because it constantly travels from one point to another point. And then it repeats and it returns and I guess, you know, are really crude. explaining it. It's it's that sense of life. It just keeps going and keeps going and and there is a drop, and there is really awful bits and there are joyous, delightful moments of excitement and suspension. And

Robert Price  46:37  
yeah,

no, I get that that's really profound. Now I understand you see, because I can No, no, I completely that that's beautiful. Because that's, that's life, isn't it like when you when you let go, when you finally let go and you and you, you, you discover yourself when when that when you encounter that, and then you express that, or you or you you do what you want to do. There's real majesty in that. And as an actor, you're constantly treading that line between, between trying to trying to control and, and or even your setting. I often think on a bad night as an actor, as the words are coming through your mouth, you're sort of trying to make them do what you want them to do as they're coming through you and then it never works. None of it really nothing happens. And so that the balance between discipline and diligence, and, and chaos and play and trust ultimately, is, it's easy to say Blimey as easy to say to an actor, you have to trust you trust it, you have to let go. But incredibly difficult to do. And so if that if that for you sort of has inside it almost that experience, both as an experience but also as a metaphor. That makes that makes complete sense. And that's a very, you're right. That's a profound thing. Because that is like, like prayer isn't it's like, I'm not I'm not Christian or religious at all. But I remember one night when my youngest son was was quite badly injured, and I was in the hospital with him. And we were waiting for the surgery and they weren't sure whether he was concussed or brain damaged. Or it was one of those terrible, terrible, terrible nights. And I remember crying and it was it was a kind of crying I'd never done before because the tears just kept on flowing and flowing and flowing and flowing and flowing. And I prayed I pray to whatever God I could, I could sort of find and just said, you know, forgive me, I'm, I've been a rubbish person. You know, as long as that being a little boy, you know, if you just if you just make him, okay, I promise I promise to be good. I promise to be good again. But I remember having a physical sensation in that moment of just kind of giving in and letting go and feeling completely hopeless. And, and sort of encountering something that was really felt really, it was quite nice feeling to go help me Actually, I felt so safe in Yeah. And so maybe all of that somewhere in there somewhere in your swing?

Elizabeth Ballinger  49:03  
I think it is. I think it's you know, I think it's the risk like they you know, we talk about risk for actors and not staying safe and not staying comfortable. And I I often find myself saying the risk is in just letting go like that in itself is a huge risk. I mean, particularly now in this present environment, you know, we've COVID and everyone is holding on and I think it's really important to find a space where you can let go it's it's incredibly vulnerable, it's incredibly exposing what what I I guess personally for me and what I can see the actors are exploring and discovering is that if you if you can connect to the Tricia is you to talk about it like a balance of technique and expression. That the technique is there in order to enable the expression and and for me if if an actor can find this spine and their centre They have specificity and they understand direction, and they have clarity in what they're doing with their body. And then when they let go, they can they can completely let go. And it's safe. It's safe because it's, it's sort of contained within the technique. And and it doesn't, it doesn't. It's not, it doesn't become sort of psycho drama.

It doesn't,

doesn't touch. Me, yes, we know that it obviously it touches on all of that, but that's not my intention, my intention is to, to give them a safe space where they can absolutely risk with the weight of their body and trust that that rebound is always there, that they can give up and they bounce back, they can come back to a place of stability and centering and, and, and that that is incredibly expressive and artistic, and every play every single text that they work on, whether it's you know, EastEnders or, or Shakespeare, they there are all of those moments in every character's life, because it's, it's human, it's about humanity, there's a moment of drop and a moment of suspension. And I yeah, that's, that's why, I guess for me as my as the actor, or what interested me about acting in the first place is, is that is the having some, I don't know, playing with humanity in all its different possibilities. And the work really offers that. And it offered it it with with space and silence and you know, not not too much talking, like it's a big thing not not to do loads and loads of talking just to keep quiet, give them the space to have their own experience. And then they can send it on to another actor or into a scene or into a play or to an audience, but but it has to, it has to happen in a very safe

Robert Price  52:04  
place.

So you're, you're actually, so the work that you teach is very shaped. So it's very, it's very structured. It's a very elegant deconstructed pedagogy. But that'd be fair to say.

Elizabeth Ballinger  52:20  
Yes,

I think it is. And structure. Yes, there is.

Unknown Speaker  52:27  
I mean, I again, I'm

Elizabeth Ballinger  52:28  
a bit nervous about saying that because I've been attacked and accused, in the past of it of the work having rigidity, because some people mistake structure as Yeah, as being something sort of rigid and fixed. And why can't the actors just like roll around the floor whenever they want? Why can't they ask questions whenever they want? Why can't they go get water whenever they want? Well, that's that's all part of sort of creating a space that is held and contained, and held and contained enough so they can have really revealing moments. And there is a there is a technique. Sorry.

Robert Price  53:12  
No, no, God, no, no, I'm, it's just that. Yeah. So that's, I feel the same way. And I feel that by offering a space like that, you actually you actually make a safe space. Absolutely. A genuinely, a genuinely safe space. So that so that, that that there's something I keep on thinking is that there's a there's a politics to that, too, and it's not an not unnecessary and negative politics.

Elizabeth Ballinger  53:36  
Yeah, I agree. I agree. And also, there's, you're creating a space where, where, if necessary, an actor or a student can, can, can hit against that, you know, they can find the frustration of why can't I fidget? And why can't I shuffle and why can't I disconnect when I want to disconnect and and you know, and we come across that all the time students get really fed up when they want to ask a question in the middle of a moment or in the middle of a movement. And I say no, just just hold it, partly because you might be able to answer it yourself. If you if you just yourself, you might discover the answer, which is much better for you than me telling you. But also, it's it's sort of interrupting the moment that you're in, it's interrupting the experience that you're in, wait till the end of the session. And they that's really hard for some people, but

that is also my job is to create that space where you know, like a child and a parent you have to hold. You have to hold their shit, don't you you have to take it and not not react back you. You have to create the space for them to you have to create the boundaries for them to bash their heads against and that is also misunderstood. That's very misunderstood by people who don't understand the work or don't understand what we're doing in the space.

Robert Price  54:59  
Did you Did you find that out? Or did you were you taught that by by your mentors? Was that something that's been? Because I think that's completely true. And I'm not sure, I'm not sure most people understand that. And I don't know how I know that I don't know whether I was ever taught that or whether I saw it or whether I figured it out or whether I spoke to colleagues in staff rooms, but that aspect of the work,

Unknown Speaker  55:20  
I think,

Elizabeth Ballinger  55:22  
I think that's probably a lot of that is down to Jane Gibson. I mean, partly Trisha as well and and obviously influenced Wendy's work and my training at Guildhall, but I think at that early stage, I, I wasn't I was just learning the movements, I was just getting my head around, having to be able to stand up in front of people and teach I mean, even that was sort of terrifying. When I worked with Jane, I, she really instilled in me that sense of of holding the space and not filling it with words, you know, I look through all my mentorship notes, and it constantly says stop talking, stop talking, stop trust the drum, the drum creates the dynamic, give students the space to have their own experience. And if I talk through everything, I'm, I'm putting my, my input onto them, and they have to discover it for themselves. So I think Jane did, she did, she did sort of really pull that out. And that comes from Trish, because that's how Trish would have taught, you know, don't don't like let them have their experience. Let them discover for themselves. And I think that's what good pedagogy is. That's what good teaching is. They because we were there with them for such a short amount of time really. And you know, if you remember your training, I remember my training, I was just like, floating through it. All right, well, you know, when I go to the pub lot, right, really committed and loving it, but, but just doing it just not thinking about it. I mean, that is part of being young and being in a training. So yeah, that's my job is to let them have their experience. And then they discover answers themselves. And they take that on. for themselves, they take it on when I'm not there with them in a play, you know, we're in a film studio. And I have recently I've had so many lovely emails from ex students saying how much the work, just stays with them and, and helps them keep together and helps them be unemployed. And, you know, I had one student say, I just want to thank you because my grand died of COVID. And I've been doing your work regularly. And it's just it just keeps me together. And that's there's that wonderful balance of it gives them weight and swing and freedom and release and expression but it but it also has a containment and a structure in a and some boundaries. And that's what keeps people together, I think. Yeah,

Robert Price  58:04  
absolutely. Tell me, let's let's go kind of off off piste a little bit. So tell me tell me your teaching experience you've had that that really moved you or changed you or tell me a story about something that happened that that could change the direction of your work. Let's try that anything popped to mind.

Elizabeth Ballinger  58:28  
How much of a story it is, I think things like my, my dad's jet a couple of years ago, got died of cancer got cancer and you know, was dead sort of three months later. And, and working through that, you know, that stuff going on? Personally, I mean, obviously, we all bring a bit of ourselves into our teaching, but at the end of the day, we are the teacher and it's their experience, isn't it? So, you know, so I keep my stuff to myself? I never I don't chat to students Personally, I don't know anything about them. Really.

Unknown Speaker  59:04  
I you know, I keep

Elizabeth Ballinger  59:06  
that sort of professional boundary. And I I think the students I was teaching at lambda at the moment must have

known about it No, I was doing a movement. That's it. I was doing a spine undulation and I just burst into tears. It was it really was a it was the the release in the spine, the movement, the expression in the movement, so that just, you know, I couldn't I couldn't sort of contain the containers anymore. And they were all sort of very supportive and very quiet. And just that, that sense of them, getting them into their bodies where, where collectively we were all in this space, supporting each other and being really open with like that sort of Blurred Lines. of revealing expressive, but but contained idea just it's not really a story. But it was just a real moment real palpable moments where I was sort of standing in front of this group of young actors, and they were all in this incredibly open place. I think it was the first time I've really felt what what it is when people talk about being open, being open and available and in the moment and all these like say catchphrases or get thrown around. And as an actor, I didn't really have any clue what they were talking about. But that was a moment I went, Oh, yeah, this is a this is this is what the work does. It contains you, it supports you. It's it allows me to support them in some way. They were supporting me because I showed some vulnerability. And we just carried on through the movements. It was it was just a very moving experience. And I think I I don't know. Yeah, that must they all influence. They all influence, don't they? I mean, I can't think of any other

stories. I

mean, I've got horrible. Everyone has awful stories of terrible teaching at the beginning where you just can't, you can't you can't withstand the what happens in the space like the students can be quite bullying, can't they? Sometimes when you're a new student when you're new teacher? Hmm. Yeah. And I think the mentorship really helped me to, you know, loads of really deep experiences in that mental shift where I I learned about my own fidget Enos and my own unwillingness to just be still and, and connect to what I'm doing what I'm saying in that moment. Jane used to say, why are you fidgeting? I've got one bit of notes of why you keep fidgeting all the time. You're like, You're like a ditzy schoolgirl. Because every time I spoke, I was sort of shuffling around.

Robert Price  1:02:01  
Yeah, when I

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:02:02  
came, you know, through a long process when I came into a place where I could be still, and I now I now walk into any class or any rehearsal or any situation and I we start with stillness and silence. And I, I hold it. And I hold it. And I insist that they hold it. And then we begin the work and that little things like that, then they're not funny stories. But

Unknown Speaker  1:02:31  
they're then moment. No, I

Robert Price  1:02:33  
wasn't, I wasn't. No, it wasn't after a funny story. I'm looking for things that that that helped us to, to really see and to and to get at least a sense of our what happens in our rooms, because I think as I was saying, at the beginning, people will say that acting teachers who work in the Conservatoire drum schools, whatever you want to call it, are kind of silent about their work. But I think that's partly because no one ever asks us like, it's not if people are seeking no one. I mean, you know, I I could go for years without anybody asking me anything about what I did. You know, and just people I got employed lots and people have presumed somebody like the work I don't know. But it's, it's it's not secret, because we're keeping it a secret. It's secret, because partly because nobody seems to want to know, and partly because it's hard. It's hard to talk about, because often you're dealing with things. I mean, when you when you told that story, I can imagine that and I'm sure most people listening and so I know what that tangibly is like to be in a room with people who are who are in a different place or a different space and who and and the thing is when you're in that you go Oh, that's a bit like when I saw Michael Gambon being a phenomenal crapping craps, last tape or when I went see Slava snow show or when the Russians came over, and I saw their extra that's they were kind of like that, like that, that thing, that that energy in the room. And it's just another gentleman's name, it's hard to do without it. That's it, that that right there is the thing that we want to be working with more and more and more and more and more, if we want to make really, really good theatre, and that's all great TV or proper film or word. And you can see when you meet extraordinary people have really good actors, really good directors they have they're there in that space. Yeah. So that's what we're, that's what we were after. I think

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:04:30  
that's what they want. That's what students want, isn't it? They because they force they understand that they absolutely are talented, and they Yeah,

Robert Price  1:04:38  
yeah, exactly. Which is why the which is why the work of, of? Well, most teachers, I think it lander and Radha most I don't, I don't know about everybody's particular practice or students relationships with everybody like you. I would try not to talk to them about it too much. But my sense is that an awful lot of the work was achieving that was giving them that experience. And that because they're artists, like you say they're they're hungry for that, and that I don't think is going to change. Like, I wonder if I was a brilliant, ambitious, artistic, imaginative 18 year olds in London right now. And I'm thinking, where do I go? To get this, this experience is going to move me a long way along the journey of doing something extraordinary. I think there's still going to be a few folk knocking around who want that. I don't know where they go to get it. I don't know what I know. I know. People often ask me for recommendations, and I'm, I'm less and less sure what to say.

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:05:38  
I think it'll be sort of shortcut, not short courses. I think it'll be private courses or private workshops, I think they'll be you know, there'll be people setting up I mean, I've done it myself. But you know, and I know other people are doing it and thinking about doing it and spaces where where you just go and you pay a fee for a class and you might go regularly, because you can and you love it, and you want it and you get hungry, and rather than it being all sort of contained in one training. I don't know. I mean, I like to hope that it won't disappear entirely. It's very tempting to believe that but I must admit, the other thing that lots of people are, I think often it comes from comes from sort of fear or because they when they don't understand when people can't quite understand what we do in the space. But they see the effect it has on the students that you know, partly one of the slight downfalls you know, I don't know if that is true, but if the students really love your work, it's not it's not me that they love it. They love the work they love the experience of coming into the session and repeating and and exploring discovering new stuff and and the the consistency of that the continuation of that they are people who don't understand what happens in that space get a bit. I think they get a bit fearful about it, or they get a bit unnerved by it and certainly I know bodywork, anything to do with the body. If you're not someone who isn't if you're not naturally connected to your body. It's quite intimidating. It's quite exposing it's, it's, I think it gets labelled as this sort of weird thing that they're doing in the room. And it will get a bit gooey and the students love it. And but no one cannot explain what's happening. And no one really talks about what they are doing. You know, it's and yeah, things like trishaw. No, they're not no, like, as an advisor, like you were saying about Myers now you can just go Meisner, and that's it. Everyone knows everyone has an understanding everyone can, can link onto it catch on to it, you can't do that with really good movement work, unless it's loddon, which is love and by itself is not so about actor training, you know, it's like, that's the thing about Yes, isn't it? It was the collective The, the amalgamation of the work and and putting it into after training. But so I think people get scared, and that that's why things get cut and taken out. Because it's

Robert Price  1:08:22  
what also Yeah, the people that often end up running drama schools, I've never had the experience of being trained. I mean, they you know, it's sort of agonising is you end up with lots of people that are either running or administering even at an artistic level, because often they're drawn from, from the world of directors or dramaturgs. Or, or people who, who use actors and and use the stuff of actor training, but but I've never been through it. So until you've actually had the experience of a changing of what it is to be changed and transformed in yourself. Before you transform. It's how would you know, how do you have a clue? I don't think I mean, I often say to people, when I started teaching in drama schools, I'd been an actor for years, and I don't know, there may invoice studies. And I started teaching it rather than lambda. And I didn't really have a clue. And it took me a long time to understand and to watch and to see change in people. And to see that often people were owning something which even they didn't understand they would, they wouldn't know what had happened to them, they become something they turned into something and what they turned into is a much more free, creative, effective artistic being. And then they have careers based on that and they make work but they don't know they don't know where it was that that connection was made necessarily. So actors also aren't always the best people to to ask about their training.

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:09:43  
And I think the other misunderstanding is that they think we were asked to change you know, that sense of transformation and change. That is some somehow taking away from your own identity. You know, another sort of dangerous word to to use and put out but That's a real mistake, that isn't, that is such a mistake to think that the work that I would be doing in the room, perhaps, is taking away from someone's identity or or someone's cultural background, it's enhancing it. It's, it's, it's entirely about your own identity in order to then have choice over what you're doing with your instruments and who you are, and, and put it into something else or play someone else who has a different identity or a different desire. And I think that's also a mistake. I keep hearing people saying to me, these ridiculous statements about movement, and because it's all about, you know, chaining the one court Yeah,

Robert Price  1:10:51  
I've heard things. I've heard that one, you know, it's all but it's sort of a 19th century or white, courtly body? And you're gonna think I mean, I guess certainly not, you know, Alexander. Alexander lost his voice, he was actually lost. Yes, he was, he was in trouble of not being able to make his living. So you worked out what he was doing. And then he and then he found a way of changing that. That's not about the politics identity, that's about being able to speak on a Thursday night when you need to do a show. I think that's the crux of this, like, what what about, who are you to tell me that I can't experience different things who used to say that I shouldn't develop choice in the way I do stuff with my body? Or my voice? Or my breath? Or my mouth? What? What What's that? What was the politics of that, like, I'm, I find that more as more than anything else. A terrible reaction, don't understand why we've decided that it's okay to tell people you are what you are. And we will simply kind of give that you are a little polish, and we're here to stay that will you will give you confidence. And maybe you can practice and asleep being you and then and then you can leave, I get that it's really complicated working with people's identity and sense of self. Yeah, I think it's really

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:12:12  
requires unity as well,

Robert Price  1:12:14  
you know, real sensitivity and care. And, and, and, and I think it could be screwed up in, in all kinds of terrible ways. And I think all kinds of terrible things are sent to actors in training and, you know, genuinely horrendous things. So I don't think it's simple. But I but I don't think it's simple. And I and I, I certainly really resent being told that it is that it's it that people should be left as they are. Yeah. So. Okay, well, I think I think I think we've got somewhere we're talking about Trish and talking about your work. And I don't know whether you can bear it. But I quite like finishing these with the sort of the tale of how it how it came to an end. So So you were working with interest is tradition, you'd you been mentored a great expense by, by the lambda students in a way. I mean, you know, they're paying their fees. So lambda had invested in you, you've been, and I have to say, I'm not sure if I've said this to you. But I remember working with you at Rada on a show, I think it was a day I think we worked on. And of course, the work was brilliant. And then right at the end of our time, at lambda, or close to the end, we worked on a production of the country wife, which I was really proud of, and loved working with you, of course. And I remember thinking, wow, you know, almost with a slight irritation, I don't think in that time, I changed very much. I don't think I learned much, or but use you were transformed. I mean, you were a wonderful teacher before. But by the time you came into my room for the country wife, you were kind of a stellar teacher, so I could see the effect in you more in you actually, essentially, what you said about Tricia is notes, which there's something about the vigorous and the rigorous note and the honest note, isn't it? Yeah. But if if somebody can give it and somebody can take it on the other side of that, there's great power. So so that was that there we were, that was 2019 I think and now now neither of us work at lambda. I won't talk about my my journey. That's, that's not the subject of this podcast. But could you tell me your story? So we started saying on Friday 13th we went for a pint with Jenny Lippmann, who was also not at lambda. And so how did you get from from from working at lambda as part of that tradition with all of that investments to not working? I don't know.

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:14:42  
I don't know what happened. I yeah. It's a I mean, I had a big conversation with Sarah Franklin who's runs lambda now and and I never met Before I mean, I might, you know, met her briefly spoke to her sort of once in a corridor. And I, we had an arranged meeting and, and she was asking me all about the work and my background and. And then and then yeah, very, very quickly sort of started saying using words like rigidity and formality and, and unsafe. And

Unknown Speaker  1:15:24  
I kept,

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:15:27  
I kept having to say, hang on that stop, like, what Where are you probably getting words like rigidity from was, because that's the absolute opposite of what the work is. And it's likely through me and I ended up, you know, having to defend my work, I guess. And, and I, you know, I, you know, me, Rob, I'm not one to just sort of, take it I I will stand up for myself. And as I'll correct people, if I think that they're saying something that's inappropriate, and I, and I'm sure Sarah won't mind me saying either that I, I stood up for myself there. And I said, Oh, hang on a minute, you're you're making sweeping judgments, because you've never actually seen the work, you don't have any understanding about the work. So I'm, I'm a bit confused why you're making all these judgments and being quite just a bit unnecessary, really come in and watch the work? And she said, Yeah, Yeah, I will. I will, you know, and then asked me to do all her movement directing and all those shows. And so yeah, great. Okay, I thought we could, you know, she'd come in and see some of the work and we could, she might discover how it isn't rigid at all. And actually, it's all about play, and it's all about improvising. And they have all that space to do that. But I don't know, somewhere along the line, there were a few meetings and I, you know, perhaps I, I spoke out and I, I questioned, you know, phrases like? What's the word they kept using in those meetings? consultation, or there's been lots of consultation within lambda. And I remember one meeting saying, I've just, I don't really know what you mean by consultation, because no one's really talked to. I don't think anyone has had conversations, like, I really don't know what your what your vision is. I mean, I know it from a spreadsheet, that, that I don't know what you're planning to do. But I'd like to know, I'd like to be involved in it. And I'd like to know, and yeah, and then, and then I think it you know, we all had this, there's lots of redundancies and there was possibility of taking voluntary redundancy. And I, I think I got a little feeling that I, the work wasn't going to stick around. And I got my voluntary redundancy and, and I took it and left. And the same with Johnny Baxter. He got in got his voluntary redundancy. And I don't think we were in. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Because now I think probably she, you know, she's got someone else there. And she's probably quite interested in the work but but maybe when the students respect that the work and the class and they're asking for it all the time, it makes you a bit of a threat, I don't know makes you a bit too popular. I mean, I don't consider myself popular in any way. But I think the work is popular with with actors and and if you're not the sort of person who's just going to keep quiet and agree with everything and accept changes, then then you can't really stay in those institutions. I can't keep quiet. I think my principles and my integrity, I mean, I curse it quite a lot of the time, because I'm sure it doesn't do me that much good in the end, but yeah, I I got out and I'm sure I wouldn't have stayed. You know, she she probably wouldn't have wanted me there anyway. But yeah, it's tragic. It's tragic. And the saddest thing was that I was a bit gagged we were all a bit gagged. I couldn't speak to the students, I couldn't really email anyone and explain I couldn't say sorry, to the students that I taken halfway through a journey and that, that fully intending me to, to carry on to the end of their journey. I wasn't able to to be respectful to them. And I that was really hard. That was really hard. It's hard for me because I've lost my teaching. And you know, Landrieu invested loads of money in the book as well they they put loads of money into wards and this you know, get these books out and get donors and publishing deals and and the whole lots just just sort of gone. I mean, the book hasn't because I'm obviously it's mine and the work is with me and Jen Gibson always said the work is you're not the work isn't the institution. The work is in you. So I lambda lambda is not me I'm the work is in me and I I'll use it. Take it where I want to or need to. Huh? Yeah, yeah. sad, sad, sad.

Robert Price  1:20:15  
What traits training isn't it? It's like this Yeah, one can keep keep a career going and find places to work and hopefully find places to teach. I mean, there's something terrifying about running out students, I think that's the sort of the, the ultimate nightmare that somehow somehow one will end up with no one to teach that would be just horrible, having spent so many years trying to understand it and gathering things and and honing stuff and filtering and developing. But anyway, that's, that's, that's fine. It's interesting what you said about part time courses or evening classes, or maybe some more of an America it's more of, I mean, hilariously, it's more of a Victorian model. I mean, that's what people did in the Victorian days, you know, you go and see some little lady in a, in a in a flat above a barber shop somewhere and you do a thing. I don't know whether that's it's not very satisfying, is it? I wonder if you can get as far maybe you can, maybe you can do a class and get where you get to by doing it? by doing a course I don't

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:21:10  
know that, you know, weekly if you did a class weekly, like if you did one voice class weekly one movement class, we cleared an acting class weekly, I'm sure. Like, over the course of, you know, yeah, 10 weeks and 10 week blocks, you're you're basically getting a training. I mean, I think the joy of it all being in one building is that it offers its own sort of securities, and I've got hammering now in the background. It's soft, it offers its own community and, and, and place yeah, for a young actor to really immerse and throw themselves in it. But But life isn't. Yeah, I don't know. I think that's a luxury that we had, I don't know if that is going to carry on. It feels. Everything's all of it sort of. Yeah, some big changes aren't the big changes going on? Hmm. Not just in john school. But but but everywhere, in society and globally. And I just think we have to adapt. I mean, that's the one thing that I I trust is that I appointed the work is that we're enabling other people to adapt, and that we have to adapt as well. I mean, why would we not? Why? Of course we can adapt. And yeah, the fear is that people won't, won't want us. Yeah, that is fatal.

Robert Price  1:22:38  
It's also not as much fun I would have been doing Of course, like everyone, I'd be doing more a bit more teaching. And I've got a lovely students I see. And sometimes I'll be there this week. I was in the premiere in in Lewisham, which is a fairly, a fairly bleak experience of the best of times, but in the midst of COVID. It was just sort of fucking horrendous. And I was I was seeing people that I really liked. And I enjoy teaching. So yes, so I can I can teach my bedroom the premiere. Yeah. But it's not as much fun as being being in the staff room at lambda and having a, having a glass of wine at the end of the day and toy students talking about their work and caring about each other's practice. And it's a it's a hell of a lot that

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:23:15  
we have to set something else, I have to just do it ourselves. You know, I think there's enough people My God, I've had so many conversations with people now saying, they're fed up with these, these institutions, they're fed up with the the rules and the bureaucracy that goes on in them. And I know it's so lovely hearing those things from Annie like the, the sort of revolutionary side of it, and James and, and David as well, that it just doesn't feel possible, does it now, I don't know. But it just has to be a Quiet Revolution. It has to be a it's a 21st century revolution. It's it's not okay, sort of seeps in it. And it shifts rather than it being Oh, we're all walking out of this. And we're all going to set up something else. And

Robert Price  1:24:10  
what its property means that if we could all just get a big house somewhere in the I mean, you look at the rose booth at least 15 and the new college and that's what they used to do. They find some sort of slightly derelict house in Hampstead Heath and they'd buy it and they do it up and they don't move in. I mean, I'd love that. I do that. I do that tomorrow. Happily, but But yeah, I don't think we're not going to find that. That house anymore. Okay, well, I think we should probably probably draw to a close. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you'd like to Is there anything you'd like to bear witness to anything that's any he want to scratch or scratch you want to issue?

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:24:48  
I don't take so. I mean, yes, funny. I'm sure there's loads of things that I've missed that I think are really important to

Unknown Speaker  1:24:56  
get out there and talk about

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:25:00  
To understand the work, but you just have to do it, you have to do it. I mean, at the end of the day, people have to do it. You have to have the actual experience and not not just hear all the words. The words are amazing, you know, that's lovely hearing people talk and

Robert Price  1:25:16  
huh

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:25:18  
it's the other thing Janie's to say there's there's loads of people that can talk about the work, but being actually be able to teach the work. This, this is a very different thing.

Robert Price  1:25:29  
So you teaching online? I am.

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:25:32  
Yeah, so I'm in the building at Roger. And mine is in the building at Mountain View, but only temporarily, because it's miles away from where I live. But I'm also doing workshops for graduates online. Yeah. Which I sort of set up at the beginning of the last lockdown, I think just contacted a couple of ex students from lamda, and just said, Oh, like just put some sessions on to spread the word and let me know if anyone's interested. And I was flooded with emails, which was delightful. And I've been running regular workshops since then, like, eight, nine months now.

Unknown Speaker  1:26:15  
And

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:26:17  
yeah, there for just people to drop in. Like some people don't come for a few months, some people come every single session. It's sort of cheap and cheerful. I've done some invoice practitioners, I've done a whole load on movement to screen. Yeah, that's not the same as being in a room is it? But when actors, there's no industry, I mean, unless you can get a bit of film work. There's nothing else going on. And I think it's an opportunity for them to just stay connected to their craft and breathe and be in their body, even if it's in a sitting room.

Robert Price  1:26:53  
Do you do Would you accept sort of, I'm just wondering, do you want to give a link at the end of this podcast where you say your email address or the name of the company? Do you want to do that? So you know, yeah, my Listen, yeah, I'm

Elizabeth Ballinger  1:27:04  
gonna do I'm halfway through setting up a website. I just can't be bothered with all that stuff. Although I know it's important. I don't do Facebook. I don't do any of those things. Again, I'm probably missing a trick but I don't care. I quite like the fact that it's just growing organically. So yeah, people people just email it's Elizabeth ballenger@yahoo.com

Robert Price  1:27:26  
brings us to the end of our conversation with with Lizzy the banging in the sewing got a bit loud. So you won't get to hear us say goodbye. But anyway, I'm sure you can imagine. So thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed that podcast. There'll be another one next week. I think I might interview Alan Stanford, a legendary Irish actor about his time at the Guildhall in I think the probably the 1960s. But I'll I'll let you know. Thank you so much for listening. Have a good week. Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai