.png)
She Built It® Podcast
Welcome to the She Built It® podcast. Join me as I talk to women who have successfully built it - a life and business that they love. We dive into the topic of “how” they built it and talk about everything from having the courage to make career leaps to the details of how to lead effectively, build teams, implement growth strategies, and infuse tech innovation. Magic happens when we focus on the part of ourselves and our business that brings us joy so let’s dive in.
She Built It® Podcast
Trust Is the New Marketing: What Brands Get Wrong About Proof and Claims
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
On She Built It®, Susanne Mitschke, co-founder and CEO of Citruslabs and Harvard-trained epidemiologist, pulls back the curtain on what's really happening in the wellness, beauty, and consumer health industries. From claims washing and heavy metals in protein powders to why transparency is now a growth strategy, Susanne explains what separates the brands consumers actually trust from the ones making promises they can't back up.
She also shares what most founders get wrong about clinical studies, how brands have turned failed study results into powerful marketing stories, and why the gold standard in research is more accessible than most brands think.
Stick until the end, where Susanne is busting some of the most common health myths, including why cold plunging may actually be increasing inflammation in women, and what your menstrual cycle has to do with your training performance (follow her on LinkedIn for more details).
Episode Resources -
ClinicalTrials.gov - learn about clinical studies from around the world
National Institutes of Health (NIH)
Federal Trade Commission - Protecting America's Consumers
National Advertising Division (NAD)
Investigational New Drug (IND) Application
Connect with us:
She Built It® CEO, Melanie Barr Instagram
Welcome to She Built It. I'm your host, Melanie Barr. Suzanne Mitchke joins us today. She is co-founder and CEO of Citrus Labs. Through clinical studies and scientifically backed claims, she works with brands across wellness, beauty, and consumer health to build trust, credibility, and stronger connections with consumers. Her clients have included Poppy, Fitbit, and Trophy Skin in a market full of big promises and wellness claims. What separates the brands that earn real consumer trust from the ones that don't?
SPEAKER_00This question is twofold. So, first, obviously transparency is key. Transparency can mean different things to individuals. But transparency to me means number one, ingredient transparency, which means what's on the label isn't actually in the product. So that is one big thing. And this is when uh ingredient testing actually comes in. Um and they are fantastic companies that also spot check, for example, different categories. A couple of weeks ago it was protein, before that, it was creatine. Um and they are just spot checking different companies to see what they are saying is on the label, isn't actually in the product. That, and then also is the product free of contaminants, heavy metals, for example, any pesticides or any weird fillers or something like that. So this is more about safety, and the other thing is about efficacy, and this is where I am essentially living, and that means the product doesn't do what the marketing says it does. So, for example, when you have products that are supporting sleep or that are supporting hormonal balance or that are supporting skin health, for example, are these products and the claims on these products, are these claims actually substantiated? And then also when they are substantiated, when they say oftentimes in italics, like we did a study, but they are not publishing anything about the study. Who did the study? Was it the brand? Was it a researcher that is working with the brand? Oftentimes we see doctors launching brands. Was it the actual founder who did the study? Was it a third party who did the study? And then also what were the methodologies? How was the data collected? How long was the study? Who was enrolled in the study? All of this information I'm personally looking for when I shop for products.
SPEAKER_01And your business is so timely now because we're all thinking about what is going into the foods we're eating. As I make a protein shake during the day, I'm thinking about what is in the protein. Consumers want to know. I have 12-year-old twins. My daughter loves skincare. So when you think about what you're putting on your skin, it's really important.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. For for skin, that's that's even a little bit different. We we talked before about something like greenwashing. What I'm seeing right now is that it's it's less concerned about greenwashing and is stuff that I'm putting on the skin or am I am I eating is that safe? What I'm seeing more right now is what I call claims washing. Um, because now we moved on from this clean ingredients because almost everyone is doing that now because consumers were pushing so much into that direction. What I'm seeing now is more that these companies they are making incredible claims, but they just don't have the substantiation to back it up.
SPEAKER_01And that's where your company comes in to do the testing.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. That's what we're doing.
SPEAKER_01Take us back a moment and share with us a moment you've decided to launch Citrus Labs and how did it lead you to what you've built today?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I have a background in epidemiology and biostatistics. I'm from Harvard School of Public Health and have worked in clinical trials, mostly on the FDA side my entire life. And then some of my friends in LA where I live were launching brands, skincare brands, supplement brands, and they were thinking like a step ahead because so many brands are launching left and right now. They wanted to do something different. Um, so they were leading with science versus with clean label. They were all clean, but they wanted something different, and almost 10 years ago, that was still a big differentiator. And then they got quotes from a couple of CROs, which is short for contract research organizations. So these are third parties, like my company, Citrus Labs, who are conducting independent studies on behalf of the brands. So these brands are paying these companies, but that doesn't mean that the results are rigged, for example, right? So they got like oaths and estimates from these companies, and I couldn't believe what I was seeing because we are talking about supplements and cosmetics. They they don't need a 500 study, uh FDA type clinical study that costs half a million or even more. So then I was asking if I could consult a little bit on behalf of them and just run a study, and that was very successful. So as a result, decided to actually uh make a business out of it.
SPEAKER_01That's so smart of you, and especially for today when we want that transparency.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. And it's very interesting because 10 years ago, the supplement industry as we know today was non-existent. The supplement industry started obviously, supplements have been around for decades, but it the craze around it and also them looking cute and in like nice packaging and stuff, started more in 2015 with a company called Ham Nutrition. They were one of the first ones who actually created fantastic packaging that you were putting on the counter and showing your friends. And now in 2020, through COVID, that really accelerated because then everyone was so concerned about their health, and people were actually looking for more natural stuff to support their health. And this is how the functional food and functional beverage industry exploded. And you spoke earlier about skin and skincare. Also, beauty from within is really thriving.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because everything's moving so quickly, and it's how do we take care of ourselves? And I think that started during COVID when we were all at home. It's like, how can I have a spa day or do something nice? But that's continued. And now we're we're continuing to take care of ourselves like we did through that time.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_01What are most founders still getting wrong when they think about product claims, proof, and credibility?
SPEAKER_00I don't think that founders are getting anything wrong. It is more about them not knowing. So when I when I look at brands and brands that are in the press or that are having a bad reputation because some of them might think it's what they're doing is misleading. I don't think of it that it is malicious. It is more about them not really knowing what they can and what they cannot do, right? So one thing I am very the fans of is so for claim substantiation, obviously the gold standard would be to run your own study on your final formulation, be that in skincare supplements or functional food, functional beverage. If if you have a product, you should run a study on it to actually show that it works. But some of them cannot afford that. So this is when ingredient research comes in. Um so this is research based on single ingredients, and when you have, for example, uh vitamin D or even creatine, there's extensive research about these ingredients. So you can create claims around that existing research, and that is totally fine. But where I think most brands are crossing a line is when they phrase it like this was their own research, and then when you click on learn more, and then you have to scroll down and scroll down, and then you see, oh, so that was coming from a study from you know 1990 or the early 2000s.
SPEAKER_01And things have changed since then.
SPEAKER_00Yes and no. So most uh ingredient research uh stands as is, but we are actually learning more things now. We are having better methodologies to actually showcase how the different products impact our physiology, and that's really exciting. So one thing if they are citing like older literature, is more like they are missing out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I I'm thinking more every day about lead and plastics. Everyone is in that that mindset when it comes to products and what we're consuming and putting on in our bodies.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. A couple of months ago, there was this company consumer testing. It's a company that is doing spot tests on certain products, and they did a spot test on protein products, and they had a bunch of protein products testing for lead, for example, and for other heavy metals. And it actually came out that a lot of these products had concerning doses of lead and other heavy metals in it, and that's obviously not ideal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so important. How do you think leaders should think about scientific validation as a growth strategy and not just a legal or a compliance step?
SPEAKER_00This is a great transition because when we started, a lot of brands they uh they wanted research in case anything happened, in case the FTC came knocking or the NAD, the National Advertising Division of the Better Business Bureau. What I'm seeing now more and more is that consumers are demanding to see the research. And one thing that I found really cool was recently our marketing manager found an ad from one of our clients and they displayed our study, but they didn't say anything about us or methodology, just we did a study and these were the results. And based based on that, we had a couple of comments there where consumers were asking, like, can you share the clinicaltrials.gov link? And I thought that was fantastic because that shows that consumers are really educated right now of what's good, what's on the fence, and what is actually not best practice. And for everyone who doesn't know what clinicaltrials.gov is, it is from the NIH, the National Institute of Health, and it's essentially a database of all clinical trials that have happened in the United States. And it is best practice if you run a clinical study to actually register your study on clinicaltrials.gov. And ideally, you also publish um the results of your study on ct.gov as well.
SPEAKER_01So interesting. And I'm sure AI and the knowledge that we have that we can easily get today is supporting your business and that we can have all this information really quickly. And that we can get the links more easily to do that deeper research.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. What I'm also seeing is that many brands now also start to do white papers on their study, but really the gold standard is a publication and a peer-reviewed journal. And some companies that do that very well, for example, are AG1, the green powder company. One thing I want to say to that is discouraging for brands with the highest standard, like AG1, doing peer review, and then other like health influencers are kind of taking an exploratory endpoint. So in a study, you have a primary endpoint. This is essentially the question you try to answer, and then you can have secondary endpoints. They are still important, but it is really important that the primary endpoint that you are answering that question and that this part is statistically significant, and then you have exploratory things where you just want to check if we would do this, would it make sense? And then could we maybe run another study on it if it makes sense? And there was one influencer who took an exploratory endpoint that was completely irrelevant to the study and destroyed the entire study just because of an insignificant exploratory endpoint, and that led to some brands not wanting to publish so that this doesn't happen to them, even though from a scientific perspective that is completely meaningless.
SPEAKER_01So interesting how influencers can take things in a certain direction.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01When a brand is deciding what to test or prove, how do you help them focus on the claims that will matter most to the business and consumers?
SPEAKER_00It is less about us telling them, but more of them telling us. So when when we work with a brand, we ask them what claims they want to make, and then we can create a study out of it. That said, sometimes study results are not positive. Exactly. Sometimes the claims they want to make might not be substantiated by the study, but then we are having other claims that they might have not thought about, right? That are then significant often, and then they can they can take these claims for their marketing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I would think the study would help the company to adjust where they need to adjust as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we also had a a couple of our clients whose results came back not favorably, and they took that as data points and then reformulated, and then did the study again with a new product, with a stronger product. And they uh some of them were even very transparent with their own consumers and said, Hey, we did a study. You have no idea what happened to us. Our product apparently sucks. So sorry. We now, you know, reformulated and hope to have a better product. And then, you know, that that's a fantastic marketing story. When you start out, it's not ideal, then you reformulate, and then you have a better product.
SPEAKER_01So true, because then consumers want to come back to you because they think, oh, okay, there was an issue, they fixed the issue, it's probably better than it was before, and now I want to try it.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it shouldn't be that complicated, too. And it's I think it's okay to take a customer on the journey with you.
SPEAKER_00I think so too. I do believe that some some brands have issues with it because they think if they make mon one mistake, then a consumer would never come back to them. But I I think I consumers know that stuff happens and their goal is just to want transparency. And the brands that are transparent, they are winning.
SPEAKER_01And it seems like a consumer, I mean, I would feel this way, if they weren't forthcoming with the information, I would be less likely to buy it than if they said, okay, we found something, we fixed it, we it's even better. And that would give me more confidence to try it again. I think so. But if if they hide it, then I'm probably never buying the product again.
SPEAKER_00Yep. I would argue the same way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What have you seen happen for brands when they move from marketing-led messaging to messaging that is backed by actual data?
SPEAKER_00When marketing that is actually backed by by data, brands feel more confident. Feel more confident talking about their product, feel more confident also about what they can and what they cannot say, and also feel more confident about that their product actually makes a difference. One thing I want to say is that it's a really good indicator when a brand already has fantastic reviews. One mistake that I see brands make based on reviews is that they often take what a consumer said and think that this is the only way something can happen. So for example, if a consumer is is using a fiber product, it's a fantastic product, and then they they write in a review that this helped them going from diabetes to non-diabetes, then I would I would take that with a grain of salt because I have seen that fiber products can move the needle in a biomarker called HBA1C. That's essentially the average blood glucose level of the past three months, and that's a really good indicator that a product like that can actually help. If it reduces HBA1C help with diabetes, it's not a cure. And you don't know as a brand if that person maybe did an entire lifestyle change, you don't know if that person might take medication on top of it, you just don't know. So this is where then clinical studies come in. Uh, oftentimes it is a disappointment for a brand when they want to showcase that this helps with diabetes, but then it doesn't. And also, brands shouldn't make these claims around disease population because typically that that would then trigger an IND, an investigational new drug application with the FDA. So that is another thing to keep in mind. In case you are a brand founder and you think you can help with any health condition, that's fantastic. But maybe don't enroll in your studies a uh disease population because it it could trigger something from the FDA.
SPEAKER_01And it's great that you can educate founders and brand leaders on what they can say to their consumers and how they can what they can build their brand around.
SPEAKER_00Yep, yeah, absolutely. That's that's what you know we do on a daily basis. And I understand that it can be very complex and often we sometimes come, yeah, and friends come to us, but this brand is doing it. And we are like, yeah. And they will get an FDA letter soon.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, interesting. You work across wellness, beauty, and consumer health. What patterns do you see in brands that use research well and grow with more trust?
SPEAKER_00Brands who use research well, they are winning the market, to be fair. And they are they are very transparent on their research. Especially in beauty, we see a lot of them. It helps with the appearance of fine lines, wrinkles, right? More glow, more hydrated skin. And then we typically see that asterisk, and then it goes into the statement based on a uh a third-party clinical trial with, I don't know, 30-40 individuals. So, specifically in skincare, what I see brands who are winning is they don't overpromise, they show more about their study versus that little statement. And especially in skincare, if you have claims in the 90% or 100%, that is typically the result of a consumer perception study. Most consumers know by now. Because if you compare that to, for example, gold standard skin pseudocals claim, skin suitical says that it it reduces wrinkles by 30%. And that is a more transparent and more realistic claim versus saying that in 100% of participants it reduced the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles. So that is one thing, specifically for cosmetic skincare and for supplements and functional foods, functional beverages. It is really about transparency around the research, very similar to skincare. Who did the study, what was involved in the study, how was data collected, what was measured, and who were the people that are in the study? What kind of population was it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and beverage is becoming such a big item today with all, you know, protein water and energy drinks, and not that all of those are necessarily good for you, but it seems like beverages are popping up. There's a lot more of them on the market today.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Functional beverages, also mushroom beverages. Anything with mushroom is is really trending these days. Mushrooms for sleep, for cognitive health, being more alert, being more productive.
SPEAKER_01For the founders who want to build more authority in a crowded market, what is one thing they should prioritize earlier than most?
SPEAKER_00Speaking from science, I think being very transparent, not only you know in product, in your in how you are communicating your product benefits or your product ingredients to consumers, but also being very transparent in terms of manufacturing, for example, then having this supply chain open to consumers. This is really important for building trust. And trust these days is everything. And we are working with very big brands and we are working with very small brands, and the small brands are are winning because they are very transparent around what their products can do, cannot do, and also very transparent of what's in their products, and very transparent in terms of supply chain.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I would think they could move a bit quicker too. Yeah, definitely to make the changes and the fixes. Yes. What brings you the most joy in what you've built through Citrus Labs? You seem to really love what you do.
SPEAKER_00It's really cool when I walk through Whole Foods and I see claims, and then I'm like, this is us. That's what we did. Um, so that is very cool. I also love the fact that a lot of a lot of brands are now going toward more the traditional route, which means peer-reviewed journals. I think that is extremely nice, gives them credibility and gives also the research a lot of credibility because everyone who ever went through peer review, it's not easy. These people, they are very critical.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it seems more important than ever because we can get a lot of the information just quickly. So it seems like we're going in a direction of transparency is definitely so important for brands today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I I also really like to just educate consumers about it as well, about what they should think of when they are buying like new products, or even like the products they like right now, when they are not like 100% working for them, thinking more about like why are they not working and could there be like better alternatives?
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much for joining us today and for for making us think about everything that we put in and on our on our body. Really important. And what you're doing for businesses is really, really incredible. I'm sure it helps a lot with growth. Please share with our listeners how and where we can find you.
SPEAKER_00You can find Citrus Labs at www.citruslabs.com. And if you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, you can find me at Suzanne Mitschke on on LinkedIn. I post a lot about women's health on LinkedIn. This is also one of my passions. So if this is something that's interests you, then you can go and follow me. And I do a lot of myth busting in terms of male standard protocols and what works for females.
SPEAKER_01What is some of the myth busting that you're seeing and that you're promoting on your social channels?
SPEAKER_00What's really trending is longevity and is based on male physiology. So for example, you can take cold plunging. A lot of my girlfriends they like to cold plunge because they heard it on a podcast that cold plunging is good for you. And and it is. If you are a man, it can actually be a fantastic way to recover. But for females, it actually is doing the opposite. So for females is increasing inflammation. A lot of my friends are like, but it gives me this mental clarity. And I'm like, yes, it gives you mental clarity because your body is literally in fight or flight mode. Exactly. So if for females, if they like like cold immersion, that is fantastic. But it shouldn't be ice cold. Um, it should be more around 15 degrees Celsius, which I think is around 55, 57 Fahrenheit. That's kind of the sweet spot. But sauna works a lot better and is is a proven benefit for the female physiology.
SPEAKER_01It's so interesting because when I think about which one I would choose, I would definitely probably naturally choose the sauna over an ice cold plunge.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that is your body telling you that you should rather not do this, right? You when you think about training, training for an event, for example, a half marathon in your case, or or a marathon, then we do have different uh cycles in our menstrual cycle. We do have different phases. So there's the follicular phase, which is the start of your of your period, uh, which actually goes through ovulation, so it's roughly the first two weeks, and then you have the luteal phase, which is from ovulation through the start of your next period, which is roughly the last two weeks. And if you think about how you train in the first half, this is where you should do your speed workouts and your heavy lifting. In the second half, this is where you you can rest a little bit more naturally. Even if you think about another hack longevity protocol is fasting. Fasting, especially in female athletes, is extremely bad. You shouldn't do it. If you want to do it, if you want to try it, you should do it in the first half of your menstrual cycle in the follicular phase, but not to an extent as a man would do, because it essentially messes up your hormones. And uh before I knew this, I have fasted and my training was off, my performance didn't improve, and I actually gained a lot of weight, even though I was super active. And I was talking to one of my friends about it who is a coach. He's a man, and he was telling me, of course, because you are a woman, you need to eat before you work out, otherwise you're just gaining weight, and your performance will be completely off. And this is something that I even didn't know until someone told me about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you just told me so many things I didn't know. It's so interesting to think about because you see these things on social and you think, oh, I should try them, but you don't stop and think what works for a man might not exactly work for a woman. Yep. So interesting. Thank you for sharing that with us, especially about the weight training and everything, too. It's interesting to think about that in that cycle.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And also when you think about weight training, one thing I want to add is when you transition to menopause, perimenopause, postmenopause, this is when weight training becomes even more important. And they are two schools of thoughts around it. So one is to try heavy lifting, fewer reps. The other school is uh that you do more reps and do a little bit of less weight. But regardless of what you want to do, lifting weights becomes crucial in perimenopause menopause because that actually helps with psychopenia prevention. And especially during that age is also really important to increase your protein intake as well.
SPEAKER_01Last year I did more cardio and running, and this year I said, okay, I'm gonna do 30 minutes of strength training every day, and then layer the other on. And I feel better. I just feel really good. And you feel stronger too, because cardio is great. It doesn't necessarily make you feel stronger.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um and also I would argue you might even are now a stronger runner. Is that right?
SPEAKER_01Right. Yes, yes. I feel so much better.