Celebrity Interview | Entertainment & Film Industry - Director Bronwen Hughes reflects on years since the White Collar pilot

Celebrity Interview | Entertainment & Film Industry - Director Bronwen Hughes reflects on years since the White Collar pilot. 

October 23 marked the 14th anniversary of the USA Network series White Collar premiere. The crime drama starred Matt Bomer as talented con man Neal Caffrey. To avoid returning to prison, Caffrey strikes a deal with the FBI to work for them as a consultant. 

The series was created by Jeff Eastin, with the pilot directed by Bronwen Hughes. The series would go on to run for six seasons.

Those familiar with my own story know the part White Collar had on me during some difficult times. I am incredibly grateful to Bronwen for taking time out of her busy schedule to come on The Staffa Corner Podcast.

Transcript

Greg Staffa 0:00

You're listening to the Staffa Corner Podcast, a Staffatarian look at entertainment in life with your host, Greg Staffat. My guest this episode is a guest that I wanted to have on for a couple years now. I'm really excited that she's come agreed to come on. Rowan Hughes is the director that did the pilot for White Collar on USA Network. While she's done some amazing other work, we're looking at 14 years since the pilot first came out. And so I really wanted to take this look with her to look at the pilot itself and everything behind what started one of my favorite TV shows. Uh Bromwin, thanks you for joining us today.

Bronwen Hughes 0:57

Uh it's my pleasure, although you put me in a state of shock by saying 14 years. Holy cow!

Greg Staffa 1:03

Time flies.

Bronwen Hughes 1:04

Yeah.

Greg Staffa 1:05

First off, let's tell us a little bit about yourself.

Bronwen Hughes 1:08

Let's see. I come from films and comedy shorts for kids in the hall, and then the world swung over to television where the good stories were starting to be told, so we became sort of format agnostic, and I've been lucky enough to be busy on all fronts since that time. White collar being actually one of my early lucky, lucky breaks.

Greg Staffa 1:30

No, it was one of your earlier breaks, but the episodes of stuff that you've done beforehand were established TV shows. So when you're brought on, you had a frame of reference, I would assume, unless you direct, you know, did one of like the second episode or something. But you had other shows had had like a history behind it. What was it like coming on doing a pilot?

Bronwen Hughes 1:51

Ah, well, actually, here's the truth. If you come from films like I do, that's the only thing you really know is setting it up. Meaning a film director is doing a one-off. So you are, you know, establishing the look, putting the cast together, putting the crew together, getting the art, the sensibilities of the of the, you know, the sort of art direction together. And you know, it goes all the way down the line to score, loop group, um, whatever else, and even you have a hand in marketing. So coming from films, you think that's normal. And then you join television, like you've just mentioned. And it was in honesty a kind of a shock that they don't want your ideas on music, they don't want your ideas on who's gonna shoot it. It's already in place. So I learned very early on that you sort of had to sort of jump on the moving train, find the best in everybody, and try and eke a bit of yourself into it because I figure that's why they hired you. So, in honesty, in doing a pilot, it's like going back to my first instincts when I get to draw on the things that I consider part of the cinema language, all of the sound design, the music, the obviously the casting and the shooting style, you know. So it wasn't new territory to do the pilot, it was like the thing I was most in love with when I started in films.

Greg Staffa 3:12

So you really have like a ground side perspective of setting up the tone, the look, and everything like that. So as much as Jeffrey Easton gets credit for creating it, you feel that you had a wide range of opportunities to have your hand in everything.

Bronwen Hughes 3:29

Yeah, I mean, you know, you have corporate bosses on any level of this industry, the features and even independent features, it's kind of a myth that it's independent. You got lots of bosses, whether they be, you know, sales agents or financial or whatever they are. So you're always answering to someone, but but when you come in as director number one, you do have a great say in the language of it, right? The style, the language. And you have a big part of the say in the casting, though ultimately the big stamp of approval will come from you know the corporate bosses and the network and the studios. So, because that's their currency.

Greg Staffa 4:08

You're you're giving the pilot, it sounds like the pilot has a lot more that goes into it versus coming in for an episode number 20 of a of a series. Were you given more time? I mean, was there how does that all work when you're you're given the pilot now? You have to kind of build everything, but we're also dealing with TV, which has a limited schedule of how fast you can do it. So, what was that like?

Bronwen Hughes 4:32

You know what? The industry's shifting on the pilot front, everything's shifting really. But in the classic mode and in the the world of 14 years ago, pilot, holy cow, I still can't believe it. The pilot gets a bit of privilege, right? We got a few more days to shoot it than usual, we got a bit more money to shoot it than usual because the the pilot is the best put for best foot forward, and you're hoping uh by doing the pilot that they will pick up the rest. Nowadays, of course, the streamers will just say, We're doing all 12 episodes, we're all doing, you know, they go right for it. But the pilot is really the audition piece of early days television, and therefore you get a little bit more going on, you know, in your tool chest. Now it's kind of swung the other direction where they want to spend as little on the pilot as possible in case it doesn't get picked up because the money will go in the garbage if it doesn't. But that was a shock to my system in years lately. But the white-collar era, it's really treated with great, you know, hope and respect and support. So that's what we got. And then, you know, the the other good news for me is that USA was a brand new network. So not only did I have the luck of doing show number one on a on a show that was just being built, but it was one of the early shows of an entire network. So it was not like you arrive, you know, at a network that's got its own language already. Like if you do a CW show, it's got to look like a CW show, or if you you know, a CVS show looks like a CVS show. We didn't have those rules. So I kind of just did what I think was right for what was written on the page and what the guys, you know, were coming up with. So, and I was naive, besides, in the very best sense of the word. I was like free to to do what I thought was right and not sort of worried about, like, oh, I wonder what they're gonna say down the line. I didn't know what down the line was like. So off you go.

Greg Staffa 6:31

White collar was, I think, one of the rare shows that I can remember that had almost they had an extended version of the pilot too.

Bronwen Hughes 6:39

Yeah, that was an that was a thing that they like to do at USA Networks, which I I love and doesn't happen so often very often uh anymore. But you know, the pilot is supposed supposed to hook the audience for the future, and they wanted to go deep, right? Things are very much in shorthand in episodes that are half hours or the full hour, which is 42 minutes. So USA took up this practice of doing these, you know, longer first episodes in the name of drawing the audience into the world, which of course for the filmmakers and the actors is drawing the characters deeper, drawing the whole thing closer to a feature. And and so, yeah, that that was great fun for us.

Greg Staffa 7:23

Now, a lot of shows that we see in the last 10 years or so, uh, we're seeing a lot more shows filmed in in Canada. Uh White Collar was kind of the exception of filming in New York. In several of my reviews, I commented how the city almost became a a character itself. Was that early decision? How did you guys just decide? Or is that the higher-to-bees that decide, hey, we're gonna film in New York?

Bronwen Hughes 7:46

Oh, I'm glad you say that. Thank you. The the city is a character. I mean, the city's the character in in so many ways, in so many things that actually shoot in New York, and you don't realize you're missing it when you're doing the cheat for you know, Toronto or something else. But it really is such a a cinema pleasure to spin the camera any direction and have texture, people, history, patina, you know, depth, whatever it is. So we love making it an authentic New York. I can't really remember how strong the push was. They usually do like a comparison budget for Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver, something like that. I think there was that kind of discussion, but I'm actually very big, and Jeff Easton, the show's creator, we haven't talked about Jeff, but he's of course ground zero, very big on writing things that absolutely have to take place in you know the city. And when I shot it, I tried to frame it so that to try and replicate that in any other cheaper place would be almost impossible, nigh impossible, because you know, we made the rooftop of June of uh June's place, the Tudor City thing that is just ginormous production value and very hard to replicate or find an equivalent. So I mean the other funny set that we had to come up with was June's house. The the rooftop is actually Tudor City, which is a different place, but June June's mansion was quite a find and quite a search because it I mean Jeff and the writers of the of the future team, they're Californians, right? So they wrote this sequence about June having a swimming pool on her roof, which you know was the ultimate luxe for for Matt Bomer's character Neil Caffrey to roll up on when you know when he scores big by meeting June. And so we searched and searched and searched, but there are no Manhattan houses with swimming pools on the roof. And we were shooting in winter, so so it was sort of like the California leak and true in the script that someone presumed we could find the swimming pool. And obviously, there is no swimming pool in the final result, but we got that way, way beautiful rooftop instead.

Greg Staffa 9:59

Yeah, that's when Hollywood. I mean, I'm in Minnesota, so and anytime Hollywood tries to do winter, we always kind of laugh like, oh, that's they think of uh winter as you know when you see it on TV. So you get hired. What was the casting process like? How involved were you with that? And who's kind of your first couple of people that were cast for the show?

Bronwen Hughes 10:19

Ah, well, pilot director is involved from the beginning, but like I say, the you know, the um there's a head of casting at the network and the studio. It's a studio and a network, right? And they're kind of both very much involved. Network has ultimate approval, but the studio is making it happen. And they have a head of casting who is terrific and sees everybody, right? Like they are casting so many things at once, and they've been to every play on every back alley, knowing who's coming up next and spotting new talent. And the good thing with television versus films is that they were looking for new people, right? When you when you're casting for a film, it's all about the sales numbers and are they an A-lister and are what's their value? Meaning, unless you know they've done a million films, you kind of don't get your financing. In in television or in this television, and certainly in White Collar, we really had the freedom to find the right people and the best, best people we, you know, despite whether they were A-listers already or soon to be. And so we went looking, and you, you know, the way it works is the casting director of the network works with local casting directors in different cities, New York, LA, probably other cities too, and the agents send in their people, and there are rounds of casting going on that get weeded out to a shorter list, but still a long list, for us to see, actually, me and Jeff Easton and the immediate producers to see, and we weed it down and put forth people to the studio, and they weed it down and put it forth to the network, or maybe it's in a slightly different order than that, but you know, there is this sort of short listing and shortlisting process that goes on. And it came, we were obviously looking for Neil Caffrey and Peter Burke, the two leads, first, because on that the whole show hinges. And the crazy thing was that I personally threw down very early for Tim Decay. I just thought he was magic, the quiet version of magic compared to the flashy version of the Neil Caffrey character, which is very hard to find actually, but electrifying, funny, dry, droll, all those wonderful things. And so I really wanted him immediately and said so. And then, of course, we're looking for Neil Caffrey, who's uh who has a role that is swagger and you know he makes his way through the world on charm and breaking rules and wits, and so it's great fun to look for someone like that, but it's also very hard to find, you know, a lucky charm. And we found a lucky charm in Matt Bomer. However, the role was written for a guy who'd been in prison for 10 years, and Matt Bomer was very young, and so in doing the math, people were like, Do we believe it? Was he real, you know, is he hardened criminal? Do we believe it? And you know, mathematically he would have had to have gone to jail as a teenager, so it was a slight difference from what was written. But finally, we just couldn't, we just knew there was star power in the room with Matt. So uh we chose him. And I think the only mathematical mention of how long he was in prison is sort of, you know, is no it no longer says decades in prison. I think the script was changed to be like a good long while. So nobody does the math.

Greg Staffa 13:44

Fuck just the numbers a little bit. No, I I love their chemistry. So is there any other rounding out the cast? Was there any other unique opportunities or unique stories in finding them?

Bronwen Hughes 13:55

The other best story was in trying to cast the mozzie character because that guy could be anything, you know. As written, he was basically a weirdo. So, what does that mean? Uh and then so the agents sent their weirdos. So we had fantastic casting sessions looking at these various interpretations of how this mozzie character might be, and all we knew is that he had to be unique and he had to be non-straight, right? To think different, to see the world different. That's kind of the point. And ultimately, Jeff Easton put forth his friend who is Willie Garson. And Willie Garson does not have an acting resume that's that long, but he'd done some good stuff, and then you meet Willie Garson and you realize he is all those adjectives that I just said. He's his he's a one-off, man. He's his own thing, and kind of a weirdo in the very best sense of the word. So that's how we got Mozzie.

Greg Staffa 14:53

Wow. No, he has since passed. Is there any special story that you're willing to share that isn't too private of working with him?

Bronwen Hughes 15:02

Uh no, I didn't, like it's so sad that he passed. I can't even fathom it, you know, because I haven't seen the guys for a number of years because I've been flitting around the world on other jobs. So I've I had a little bit lost touch and didn't know what state anybody was in. And then I've heard the news on Willie and I was kind of flabbergasted, and of course, wrote to Jeff immediately. You know, I don't know if I have any kind of funny story other than every day was a funny story with Willie Garson. And, you know, the the he's really kind of just the cool guy that would sort of bring a next level to just straight-up dialogue, and you know, the between him and Matt comparing hats, I remember, was was great fun. But the two of them together, I think, are really a great pair of of uh unique ones.

Greg Staffa 15:56

So now directing an episode versus directing like a feature, you laid out uh a complicated mystery that needed to be solved, but we knew the mystery wasn't gonna be solved throughout the season, if not the series, you know, of of everything going on in Neil's past. How much information are you given as a director of just the pilot, or is it just here's how far I need to get the ball to, and then hand it off to someone else? Or are you given you know inside knowledge of how things are gonna go or directions are to go, or is it just I need to get this script from point A to point B?

Bronwen Hughes 16:33

Uh well, in truth, we're not given that much. Well, it depends on different different jobs is different things, but I would say the vast majority of the jobs, we, meaning myself and the actors, don't get a ton of future information, mostly because the writers are desperately trying to figure it out in many, many shows. And I think Jeff had a you know a good handle on it, which is how he pitched and sold the series, but all the details are not yet worked out. It's too dense, they got to string it out for too many shows, and a little bit it's okay because that puts the actors and yourself only in the immediate present, yourself meaning director and actors, in the immediate present of what we need to know. We can't like tip the hand or get ahead of the audience or you know, have one care character ahead of the other. So a little bit living in the absolute present of only having fleeting bits the way memory comes to a person is okay.

Greg Staffa 17:34

So you're a lot like the fans and in the dark, but you're one step ahead of everything.

Bronwen Hughes 17:39

Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously what you get from uh your briefings and the script, of course, usually if you notice it is what matters, right? It matters to notice the ring on the hand, it matters, you know, the way he reacts when you say her name. All of those things are are part of the planting of seeds for people hanging on to figure out what's really going on. So it's important stuff. And actually, what I what I just said about, you know, the look on his face, I think that Matt Boomer plays plays that so very well without words, just to know how affected he is by the very mention of her name or the possibility that she's you know out there somewhere, he can his face can speak volumes.

Greg Staffa 18:25

Now, at what point you're filming the pilot and you're laying the groundwork for for tone and everything like that. Is there a point in the director's mind that says we actually have something here? Or is it just kind of one of those things where you're so deep involved in it that you can't see the outside picture where you're like, oh, good luck. I hope this works out for you. This is here's the pilot.

Bronwen Hughes 18:50

It's kind of a great question because I've been wrong many times. In fact, I'm convinced myself I'm the curse of death. If I like a pilot, it's not going, and vice versa. So I'm trying to be neutral at all times. I think you dare hope when you see something good, you dare hope that this is good. But it's tricky, man. It's chemical combustion. It's the same with making a film. Individual sequences might be amazing. The dailies might make them write letters to you about how amazing it's all looking. But the chemical combustion of putting it all together is a different animal, so you don't really know until you really get, you know, close to the whole thing being together. And then you really don't know again until you put it in front of an audience. I I mean, television you watch alone, of course, but you do have to screen it in front of in a room full of people because you kind of start to know things immediately the first time you put a show or a story in front of people. The first thing you tend to know is, oh my, it's boring in this part. Or like you hear people coughing or shuffling. Or if you hear obvious reactions like laughter, you get a clue there, or no laughter is a different clue, you know, when you're expecting it. So it's very humbling to know that you never know, though you dare hope.

Greg Staffa 20:10

That was a good way to put it. And I think I think overall it came out to to above average reviews. I wasn't reviewing at the time. Uh I didn't review it until a couple seasons in. Kind of overall a positive. I mean, it went on for several seasons, so you must have done something right. When you're when you're doing a pilot like that and then you you go off to do other stuff, is there a lingering of like this is my being? I mean, because to me, you know, before meeting you or talking to you, you know, I always considered Jeff as to be the dad, you to be the mother. I mean, you but you both laid the groundwork. Is that kind of how you you feel as directors when you do things like this? Is this is this you know maybe not don't go back to it, but this whole, you know, this is your you created this child versus you know coming in and babysitting for a few episodes, this has a little bit different meaning to you. Do you approach it like that way or see it that way, even if you you don't go back to it, it just is there a kind of a special place in your heart for this, or is it just over me overthinking?

Bronwen Hughes 21:12

No, you're not overthinking. Like, I mean, I personally really, really care, which is kind of a problem in my career, by the way. If you don't care, you can do a lot more things and make a lot more money. But I really care. So I gave it my all, which you know, maybe decisions certain people don't agree with or certain people are impressed by, you never know. But I really dug deep for myself to try and do what I thought was the most intriguing, entertaining, fun, unique, whatever, you know, whatever makes something good. I was trying for it. And obviously, like I said a minute ago, you don't really know, but you care, so you try and you work hard, and you try to leave no stone unturned with the possibility of what could make it even more so. So Yes, it holds a special place in your heart. Yes, I feel like a mother, though possibly a surrogate mother, because Jeff's, you know, long gestation period is longer than mine. I mean, the other truth is that when I go so deep into projects or even just episodes, that once I finished it, I never look at it again. I can't bear it because all I can see is the things I failed at, or I would have done better. And I'm not the only person that talks that way. I've heard actors say that many times. But uh a little bit of space makes it possible to watch again for your podcast. And I enjoyed it, I will admit. But um the guys were the most impressive thing. So so yeah.

Greg Staffa 22:37

Playfully biting into what you just said, what's what's like a little critique that you look at for the pilot and say, I wish you would have done this differently. Not a you know it doesn't have to be like, oh my god, I can't believe we did this, but like what's is there something that I mean yeah, it sounded like there's something that nigged in you with with that comment, or it's just you're talking in general.

Bronwen Hughes 22:59

Well, I mean, the good news with time is you kind of forget. I think people say that about childbirth, like after a bunch of time you only remember the good bits, but but uh I I will, you know, there is one kind of uh sequence that just didn't go as planned, so it's not specifically my fault, and that is the sequence when they're riding in the car. The guys are driving through New York City and they're talking, and you know, it's simple enough to write it on the page, but you know, driving sequences are big technical nightmares in a production. You have tow vehicles, you have, you know, the you the car, the the vehicle, the vehicle's making squeaky noises, the sound is ruined, the traffic is held up, there's horns honking because the New York City police are telling people to stop at this, you know, crossing for way too long for New York City patients. And and the number one thing that made that sequence impossible was it was a snowstorm. So it was right before Christmas. It was a terrible snowstorm. We should have not have been on the road, but you know, production waits for no man, and we went for it. And you know, all I remember was being desperately happy that they said the words at all. That is not the same satisfaction as having, you know, watched the scene and knowing that we've done the finesse work and the nuances and everything I've ever hoped for was tried. Uh-uh. It was like they said the words, the snowstorm is happening, they are alive. We cut.

Greg Staffa 24:27

Well, let's get the hell out of here.

Bronwen Hughes 24:29

Yeah, like that.

Greg Staffa 24:31

What other kind of special uh moments were there that you have that kind of just linger with you? Like whenever you think back to those days, you know, is there certain scenes, just funny moments?

Bronwen Hughes 24:44

Um, well, I remember a funny day. Tim Decay is the hero of this one. We were at the Brooklyn Navy Yards, which by the way, doesn't exist anymore. This the whole New York City is raised to the ground and condom condo fied. So we're kind of showing you in New York that you know is from another time. But it was fantastic. Brooklyn Navy Yards, fishmonger warehouses, where we're doing the final sequence, right? Where they finally find the bad guy. And we had to figure we we were racking our brains on you know what the trickery would be to get the guys, Neil and Peter, to the FBI into the warehouse. And I mean, you write something, but then there's the practical realities. Oh, the door doesn't happen there, there's no window, whatever it is, whatever was written on the page didn't physically exist in the real world, and we had to figure out how do we get the guys to the warehouse. And it was like way too long with the ticking clock of production, not figuring it out. And then a truck went by, I think it was the fish truck, and Tim Decay said, Why don't we run behind the truck? And they just ran like stink behind the truck and used that as their cover to make their way into the warehouse. And we were all like, you know, what kind of hacker, what uh, you know, rigging, what no, sprint like heck behind the fish truck, and that's how they got in the warehouse. In truth, in re-watching it last night, I think they cut that bit out. Maybe in the final stages, I wasn't involved with, but it was the moment that Tim Decay was my hero for saying the most practical, brilliant, and energizing thing of the day.

Greg Staffa 26:37

Sometimes the easiest fix is is the easiest answer.

Bronwen Hughes 26:41

Yeah.

Greg Staffa 26:42

Or the hardest fix is the easiest answer, I guess.

Bronwen Hughes 26:44

Well, whatever it was, it was like, of course, run like stink, go.

Greg Staffa 26:50

No, I mean, this this show has a special, like we talked about online, uh, the show has a special place for me. I had started watching it while I still had a house, and then I lost everything, and it was just one of those shows where you know it's you're finding the good in in someone, uh, finding the redeeming qualities in someone, and a show about friendship. I mean, there wasn't I can't remember strong language, I can't remember over sexualizing or seeing anything over sexualized. It was really about two guy friends. And, you know, there's of course deeper elements to that and and Neil's love life and stuff like that, but the at its core was it just friendship. And you know, we see that progress throughout the series and whatnot, but it was really established well with the pilot, and so I think that's why I was hooked from day one. And then when I lost everything, you know, so many people say you need to find a way to get through it, and you need to find little victories. It's easy when you become homeless to say, you know, I want a a house where they pick a fence and a dog, and I want to find a relationship again, and you know, I want you know this and that. But that's not gonna happen overnight. And so I needed something that was week to week, and that became a TV show. And so once a week I would save up money and and get a hotel and be able to have a you know, shower, shave, and and have a bed, but then watch white collar. And so that really became my my step is because you know I wanted to see what happened next week and you know next week, and that became you know, silly as it sounds, it became just a little thing that I needed to look forward to. You know, when you you lost everything, you're kind of looking for that that rare little thing that says, What do I need to look forward to next week? And it's so easy to give up and drown yourself in your sorrows. But I was like, Well, I want to find out what happens to Neil. And so when I lost everything, that became kind of my my transition. And I've ended up being able to talk to Jeff and and we had a you know a couple conversations. Um haven't gotten an interview him yet, but that's on my my list too. But um, you know, I've gotten talked to some of the cast, but when I wrote about it, I wrote a blog that says, you know, how a TV show helped get me through homelessness, uh, an entertainment site saw it, uh, your entertainment corner and said, hey, we we love your passion, where you're not, you know, you're not judgmenting a a show or trying to rip it, you're looking at it through a different set of lenses, and we'd like you to come for the right for us. And so the first show I started reviewing then became white collar. And it's all because of what you and Jeff created. Had he not created something that was very successful, you know, who knows what else I would have found or what else I would have done or whatnot. So for me, I have a huge amount of respect for for what you did. And so that's why I've been trying to get uh you on the podcast for for so long, is because it really meant I mean some people just see it as a simple TV show, but you know, sometimes it has deeper connections with people um more than just a silly TV show.

Bronwen Hughes 30:01

Well, in my heart explodes to hear you talk about it, honestly. Like you gave me that preview before we got together on this podcast, and the idea that anything I've ever been involved with can have an effect on someone in a positive way, in a way of having them see the light when it seems pretty dark, is just the biggest reward I could ever, ever hope for, no matter what I'm working on. And the fact that you are where you are right now, Greg, is so impressive. Like, holy cow, again, what an amazing story. I think your TV show is a story. Yours, I think your I think your story is a TV show in itself. I'm sure it's gonna be written someday, possibly by you. But you are so impressive and so kind. And I just wish we can all make more things that are not um using the cynicism of the world as their currency, but rather the sort of, but not you not using the cynicism of the world we have right now, but rather the positivity and the fun and the charm and the connection and the human connection. If these things can have any kind of effect on someone, never mind the grand arc of a journey you've taken, we will be doing good things.

Greg Staffa 31:21

And what what is it about white collar as that inherent? I mean, there's other good shows out there, and there's others, but like I said before, you know, the the amount of sexualization, the amount of of language, the the you know, the violence a show like White Collar could have had.

Bronwen Hughes 31:39

Yeah, I think I think that that kind of commitment is the vision of the network. Bonnie Hammer at the top, top, top, and Alex CPL was an executive, I remember, that they they felt confident that they could do something that was engaging, entertaining, non-sucky, and and not, like I said before, use the currency of violence and and sort of bad dark edges to engage people. And I think people want that, man. I mean, I think so many people want that, but even when I look at my own choices of what movies to see or what shows to watch, I'm like, ah, do I really want to see that person disemboweled? Or you know what I mean? Like, I choose to not watch a lot of things, and I wish I felt like it wasn't total fluff. There's human human depth to watch, but I don't have to feel rotten at the end of it.

Greg Staffa 32:39

And you guys followed Monk initially, I believe, which kind of similar in tone. It does seem like USA Network kind of had their template that they they went by. And looking back, now a lot of their shows were kind of like that. Because you also did the pilot for Fairly Legal, didn't you?

Bronwen Hughes 32:58

Yes, I did. Yes. Uh hot on the tail of this one, lucky me, you know. Um, yeah, I mean, it they made it their brand. They there was a phrase for it. It's like uh Sun Blue Skies, I think it's two parts of the phrase. They that was their brand. Blue skies, sunny skies, something like that. I'm getting it wrong, but they decided to do that. They I do believe that White Collar was a very big hit for them. Actually, Bonnie Hammer took Matt Bomer as her date to the Emmys, so she was very proud. And you know, when it took off the way it did, thanks to people writing about it like yourself, I'm sure, you know, they believed they had something. In fact, they had something so good that then other networks started to mimic it, and I would go into meetings on other shows for other networks, and they'd say, you know, you know, we want this is this is what we're looking for, and say the blue skies thing again. And then I would go to further meetings on USA shows, and they're like, uh, we got to reinvent ourselves because everybody's ripping off our blue skies. So it came sort of full circle that it was so imitated, uh, that you know, even USA had to do other things from then. But it was kind of a a great moment that it was so well received in the first season, White Collar, because they had something.

Greg Staffa 34:16

I was a big fan of Fairly Legal, also. I had interviewed uh Baron Vaughn. When you do directing, so you did White Collar and then Fairly Legal. Is it because of White Collar that brought you Fairly Legal? Is that like a studio thing, or it just happened to be that they were both at the same studio?

Bronwen Hughes 34:34

No, that one was directly because they liked what I did on White Collar. Can you make this next one a hit too? So that's you know, that's really what you want to hear, you know, and you hope the gravy train continues. It doesn't always, by the way, because you know, people want new faces, new talent, new vision, so you don't get to ride the same gravy train forever. But luckily, you know, for me, I got at least to do one super charming uh show after white collar on the strength of it.

Greg Staffa 35:06

Wow, that's great. Any other final thoughts on white collar? Any special memories, stories you want to share?

Bronwen Hughes 35:15

Huh, let's see. We've talked so very long. I feel like I told you everything I can remember. I didn't remember many things to tell you the truth, and then I watched the show to get ready to speak to you as a jog my memory kind of thing, and you know, it all came. It it honestly feels like yesterday. That's it feels like yesterday that I did it because the experience of making these things, but this one in particular, you are so present and so uh sort of uh every sense is involved in trying to put it together and you dream it at night, and you you know, there's no difference between waking and dreaming when you're making something like that because it takes it all out of you. So it doesn't feel like time has passed, and I'm just so very thrilled for the guys uh Jeff, Tim, Matt, all of them that they've gone on to amazing big things and superstardom in Matt's case, that's for sure.

Greg Staffa 36:11

Almost got to interview him once. He had a movie premiere that I attended the red carpet for, and he had a pull out the last minute, but his grandma and his dad were there. Uh, so I got to talk to them, and she sent a message to Matt that I was able to pass on to his people that uh was very touching and kind of fun to be able to talk to them. But I was able to share my story with them too, and just kind of say, you know, your son's show helped get me through a very tough time, and so they're appreciative of of that.

Bronwen Hughes 36:43

So but um he would probably if Matt got that message, even if he's pulled in many directions and couldn't be there for you that night, I am sure he would absorb it. I am sure he would feel uh appreciative of knowing that and probably flabbergasted. And probably flabbergasted like I was when you told me. So he's the very best sort, you know. He answers all my messages, though I don't see him very often.

Greg Staffa 37:08

Yep, I'm hoping one of these days to hopefully after the strike is over and um I'm able to talk to him finally. Uh, I'd love to have you on again when we're able to talk more about you know what your current work is doing. But I sincerely haven't appreciated you coming on. Um just a little podcast here, but for me it means a lot. And just given everything that's happened, it means a lot to be able to talk to you. And I hope to have you on again uh so we can talk about current stuff. But uh I sincerely appreciate your time and thanks for joining us.

Bronwen Hughes 37:41

Greg, the thrill is mine. Honestly, you've taken me to a place that I didn't expect to go to today, and it's been really fantastic. And like I said, your stor your own story makes my heart explode. So thank you.

Greg Staffa 37:53

That does it for this episode. Thank you for listening to the Staffic Corner.