BeerWise Podcast
The BeerWise Podcast, hosted by Mark DeNote, editor of Florida Beer News, delves into the dynamic world of craft beer, offering listeners a comprehensive look at industry trends, news, and in-depth interviews with key figures shaping the beer landscape.
Each episode explores the past, present, and future of brewing, providing insights into the evolution of beer styles, brewing techniques, and the stories behind renowned breweries. Whether you're a seasoned beer enthusiast or new to the craft beer scene, BeerWise serves as an engaging platform to expand your knowledge and appreciation for the art of brewing and craft beer culture.
BeerWise Podcast
Ep. 40: Attorney Trevor Brewer talks Beer Laws, Business Shifts, and Finding Community
What does it really take to succeed in Florida's craft brewing industry today? Attorney Trevor Brewer pulls back the curtain on the business challenges facing brewery owners across the Sunshine State in this revealing conversation with Florida Beer News editor Mark DeNote.
Trevor's journey into beverage law began when he noticed a local brewery's prolonged "Coming Soon" sign and later learned the owner had sold his prized toy collection to finance his dream. This entrepreneurial spirit captivated Trevor, who has since advised approximately 40% of Florida's breweries over the past decade through his practice at Brewer Long in Longwood.
The discussion dives deep into market analysis using Trevor's monthly "Brewer's Report," which tracks production numbers and tax data. His findings reveal a sobering reality: Florida brewery sales peaked in March 2022 and have since declined to March 2020 levels despite a growing number of breweries competing for market share. This challenging landscape requires brewery owners to be increasingly adaptive, with many diversifying beyond traditional beer into distilling, wine production, and non-alcoholic offerings.
Perhaps most valuable are Trevor's insights on what truly differentiates successful breweries. While adequate capitalization remains critical, he emphasizes that strong community connections—both externally with customers and internally among owners, staff, and even landlords—often determine which breweries thrive long-term. The most resilient operations have established themselves as neighborhood fixtures, constantly evolving to meet the needs of their specific communities while maintaining financial discipline.
Hello and welcome back to the BeerWise podcast. This is the podcast that looks at what's going on in the world beer-wise. Hello and welcome back to the BeerWise podcast. I'm your host, mark D'Anotte, and I'm the editor of Florida Beer News. This episode I'm joined by Trevor Brewer.
Speaker 1:Trevor is a lawyer who specializes in some of the nuances of business that affect small breweries. Trevor has advised breweries from his office in Longwood and, after talking to him, it turns out a good portion of Florida's breweries have consulted with him at one point or another while facing a challenge or opening their brewery. Trevor also produces the Brewer Report and it's an analysis of some of the taxes paid by Florida breweries, production numbers and the names of new breweries who are opening in the state. It's a nice snapshot of what's going on in the beer industry right now. Trevor tries to produce this information monthly and each month it's an insightful look at Florida's beer and brewers.
Speaker 1:Brewer Long also started sponsoring the Florida Beer News newsletter, which can be delivered to your inbox weekly. I did want to get Trevor's perspective on some of the challenges that we're facing in small breweries and what he sees in the statistics and the reports coming out of Tallahassee. Here's our conversation. Trevor, thank you very much for joining me for this episode of the Beer Wives podcast. I'm the Beer Wise podcast. I'm excited to talk to you about what's going on in the beer industry from the kind of 10,000 foot view that you see.
Speaker 2:Well, it's my pleasure. I've always enjoyed speaking with you and just talking about this industry, which I love.
Speaker 1:Likewise Thanks. Can you talk a little bit about your background and how you got into the glamorous area of beverage law?
Speaker 2:Sure, no, I'm happy to. So I'm an attorney. I've been an attorney for almost 25 years now, and always practicing in the Orlando area, and you know, from the start, my practice has been focused on small businesses generally, and what I mean by that are businesses that are owned by one or a small handful of entrepreneurs. Some of them are small, some of them are big, but it's that small core group that I've always been working with and I've always really enjoyed that aspect of it really working closely with entrepreneurs to help them with their businesses. So where I kind of got my start in the beer business was back in 2013. And about that time the Hourglass Brewery in my neck of the woods, which is Longwood, was just opening, and I remember driving by it on my way to and from work and being excited that a brewery was coming. I'd visited breweries before in Breckenridge and Asheville and other places, and so I thought, oh, this is really cool. And I remember that they had a sign up, you know, coming soon, and the sign was up for a very, very long time you know months and I remember thinking, geez, you know what's taking so long. I was actually concerned that, you know, maybe they opened and closed overnight and I missed it. That wasn't the case. They finally did open and I remember going in um one evening after work and talking to the bartender, who happened to be one of the owners there, and you know it was great, enjoyed the beer and just got to talk to him about you know the process and just what, what it was. And so I I remember asking him well, geez, what, what, what took so long? Glad you made it, but what took so long? And he said well, you know, we had to deal with the government agencies a lot. We would fill out our paperwork, we would, you know, send it to them and we might get something wrong, and then they'd send it back and we'd collect and have to get together and try it again, and there's just some back and forth that took to get that done. And I, you know, I said, oh, you know, well, that's, that's interesting. And so what I was thinking at the time is that, ok, well, there's got to be attorneys that do this. There are attorneys for everything, you know, was my thinking. And so what I did?
Speaker 2:I remember, you know, going back to my office after that and just Googling beer attorney or alcohol attorney, florida and didn't really find anything. Didn't find anyone that was really focused on that, certainly not anyone advertising. So I thought that was interesting and so that clued me into the fact that, okay, well, there's some need here, and so it got me more interested in talking to people. The other thing that really got me interested in talking to more people like this owner was the other thing he told me that night. I remember asking him well, where did you get the money for this? What was involved? How'd you get this open? And I'll never forget he told me I sold my toy collection. And I said you did what he says I sold my toy collection.
Speaker 2:So, he had had a bunch of classic toys. You know he's a collector, I still know him very well and he still collects you know a lot of toys but he sold off a big chunk of that and use that to raise, you know, the funds to start his brewery and I just, you know, thought it's like, oh man, you know, this is, this is my kind of people, you know these, you know, you know really kind of you know labor of love, putting putting the you know everything they have into it, and so that really kind of got me hooked. I then went on to just talk to that team other breweries, other folks and just hey, what, what's, how does this work? What's your experience like? How do you make it? What do you do with it? All these kinds of things that I really just enjoyed.
Speaker 2:In my business I do a lot of work with other professionals doctors, engineers, things like that. I do a lot of work with technology companies, things on the internet. I didn't, especially at the time, didn't do a whole lot of work with people who made stuff, who had equipment that was, you know, you could look at, that was shiny and it was tangible. You know I didn't do a lot of work with people who made stuff that I liked and could enjoy and can say, wow, this is really good. So that, too, kind of really got me excited about being in it. Obviously, the industry was really, you know, growing up in a large extent at that time too, so it was a lot of fun to get in on the ground floor.
Speaker 1:And so how many breweries on average do you meet with and say a year? How many breweries do you in a 12-month period? How many do you meet with helping?
Speaker 2:so it's. It's changed a lot over time. Um, I, I think we, because you know we have done and helped with the initial licensing for probably going back, based on the federal numbers, probably about 150 to 175 locations, okay, over, you know, over about the 10-year period of time Now I, so I work a lot with those folks and continue to work with. So, you know, once you start the thing, you know there's some need.
Speaker 2:But there's been probably another. You know 50 to 100 breweries that I've talked with at various times and helped with different things where they might have dealt with the licensing but they needed some additional assistance on, say, distribution or even just general business stuff Like, hey, we have employees, you know, we got other things we have to deal with contracts, leases, things like that. So it's been a big chunk of breweries that we've supported over the years. Now wineries and distilleries too. You know easily more than than 200, probably close to 250.
Speaker 1:More than than 200, probably close to 250. Okay, okay, some fast math. That seat, that means that we have about 500 ish in the state. Give or take, that's about 40 percent of the breweries in the state that you've, you've, uh, you've touched which is, which is a really impressive number yeah, no, and yeah, I'm certainly happy to do so.
Speaker 2:you know, I just, I just, you know, enjoy talking to, to folks and obviously when, when I started out 10 years ago, it was it was a much, it was a much smaller group is easier to know them all. Um, but now you know, it's just just trying to keep up with with new ones and and so, um, it's, it's good to talk about. Met a lot of great people through the process.
Speaker 1:Did they?
Speaker 2:did they end up finding you through the grapevine or how does a new brewer find his or her way to your door? So these days a lot of it comes through Google. So one of the things that I do a lot of, and have done a lot of, is a lot of blog posts through our brewerslawcom blog, of blog posts through our brewerslawcom blog, and that really I just kind of use as the repository for when I learn things about how the industry works from a legal standpoint, with a legal angle. You know, that's where I put it, you know, and just kind of put it out there for the masses, and so a lot of folks find that information. In fact, sometimes I'll go to I'll have a question about oh, how does this work again, or I've forgotten how this works, and I'll do a Google search and my blog post comes up in the first results, and so that's always a little concerning when the guy who wrote the blog on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But that's also indicative of kind of how the laws and these rules work is that it's hard to hold it all in your mind and that's why I write it down and do that. So a lot of it comes that way. A lot of folks have given great referrals for us. We've been able to meet a lot of folks that way. I hear a lot of times oh, you know so-and-so, referred me to you, said you were great, helped with them, you know that kind of thing. In fact, you know, got that message from somebody today, but a lot has been through word of mouth and then the Google searches.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's funny. I was talking to a distributor from out of state the other day looking at Florida breweries, that they were that uh, who was who was doing what, and he had your last blog post that and that was. That was where he was pulling the numbers from, cause, honestly, it's a lot easier to pull numbers from your post than it is to do from the state.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know, and that's that's uh. You know, uh, you know just something that we're, you know, committed to doing um and pulling and trying to make those numbers accessible. You know because and I'll tell you why I do that, you know, because I, again, I have as my target, you know, those entrepreneurs, those people who maybe they are considering selling their toy collection or cashing out the 401k or just leaving a job to go start this, and I want them to know as much as possible what it looks like. You know what the numbers, what to expect. You know how to do your budgeting. Things like that we don't have, you know, a lot of. You know good hard information, you know, for that it's not easy to get that. You know good hard information. You know, for that there's it's it's not easy to get that. So I tease out of the state's record keeping what I can just to to to to give them something that they can, you know, map themselves out on.
Speaker 1:Well, and it makes sense, because opening a brewery or being a brewer is such a niche, such a niche market and such a it's not something that you if you've been any other thing, you can just transfer over into the beer industry. There's a lot of specialized knowledge that's required.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, which is one of the reasons why, you know, 10 years later, I still really enjoy my work in this, in this space. You know, the people are great and I've always loved the people, but I enjoy my work because, you know, in some ways it's still a challenge. You know we're still trying to figure it out. You know we're still. You know I deal with the ABT all the time and they're still trying to figure it out. You know, you know what. What does this law mean? You know how does this apply, and especially in a world where now, you know, we have a lot of breweries that are adding craft distillery licenses to their space and so, okay, what does that mean?
Speaker 2:How do we manage that? And so it does continue to present new opportunities and new challenges, and that definitely keeps things interesting for me.
Speaker 1:I know, and I know every year the ABT usually does a panel at the Florida Brewers Conference, and that was one of the impressions that I got too was that they're handed laws by the legislature and then basically it's their job to figure it out. They don't get a set of guidelines for all of them. They basically have to pardon the overused, saying they have to build the plane as they're flying it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and just as a you know, on that point, I, you know, I, obviously I I kind of go, you know, head to head with the abt on some issues, um, but generally, um, have a lot of sympathy for them, have a lot of sympathy for for them, you know, trying to figure this out, trying to be right by by the industry, with the resources they have and the guidance they have and those kind of things. And so I do think, you know, it is something that we, you know, we can work together on, but but yeah, it's not easy for them or me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and they end up being the big bad wolf a lot of times. That where they have to either put their foot down or not end up knowing you know they, they get egg on their face because the law has to get interpreted different ways, though I got it.
Speaker 2:I got to do it somehow. Yep, no, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1:I want to. I want to talk a little bit more about the Brewers Report, that, that blog post that you, that you do, and so every month you, you publish a post on your site about, basically, the state of beer in Florida, who's up, who's down, who's opened and what the numbers mean. And so I know it's been. I know it's usually a month or two when you get the numbers and you have to interpret them, but in your view, right now, how is Florida beer looking?
Speaker 2:So let me make this one caveat at the front just so we can have it out there. The Brewers Report, those numbers that I get from the state ABT website, those reflect what are called tax paid sales numbers. So what that is particularly is the sales numbers that are reported by breweries to the state for what they are selling in their own tap rooms, pacing rooms, restaurants, if they're that. Importantly, it doesn't reflect distribution. So I just have to caveat it that way so that you may have someone who they have very little presence on my report but they're doing a huge job in distribution. There's no way to capture that and disaggregate it from the information that the state gives to us.
Speaker 1:Does it reflect tasting room sales as well?
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, yeah, tap rooms, tasting rooms, any time that it is the manufacturer that is responsible for reporting and paying excise taxes, it's all about excise taxes. It gets on that port, and so there are actually circumstances. One of the biggest ones always on the report is actually Anheuser-Busch. Well, you know they're not, they don't have a big tasting room, but they give away a lot of products, they do a lot of promotional work where they're paying their own taxes on it, and so you know that's a lot of their revenue does come through their own tap room, their own tasting room. It does. A fairly good reflection of what they can expect is what I have found, and so I just want to have that caveat, what I have found, and so, you know, just want to have have that caveat.
Speaker 1:That makes sense. So if a brewery is strong in distribution, they may not. They will most likely not be strong on the brewer's report because they are, because that doesn't like ABI. When a craft brewery outpaces ABI, they didn't outpace ABI in distro, they outpaced ABI in taproom sales and taxes paid and nobody's going to lie. You can lie about your barrel numbers, but you ain't going to lie to Uncle Sam about it, because that means you have to pay taxes on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're not going to overstate it, that's for sure. No, that's exactly right. So, yeah, so it's a measure of it. Getting back to your question, what does it look like Right now? It's, you know, I'm going to tell you. What I'm sure everyone tells you is that it's been rough, you know, and the numbers reflect that. In fact, what I am looking at right now, as we talk, I have it up, is the last 12 months sales, in fact, and that's the number that I like to focus on, because it is basically an aggregation of the industry sales in the last 12 months. You know, you know, going forward each month, and that kind of smooths out any of the OK, we had a great you know, you know, great holiday season, but then we got down, so it's a little more of a smoother of it. And what that shows, based on my numbers, you know, as I have it, is that the peak came right about March 2022. And it's been a bit of a downhill since that time. And so, if you know, if anything, you definitely can see in the numbers that you know there's a, there's a big dip. You know, right in the few months or the four months, that that COVID really had everything shut up, shut down. There was kind of a boost that came right after that, after after people got out and felt more comfortable going back out to these places. But ever since about early 2022, march 2022, it's been kind of steadily down back to the point now where we're right back around where those March 2020 numbers were. So it's been a bit flat over that period.
Speaker 2:The other thing that I really like to look at and I'm going to I'm going to pull that up so I can speak to it here um is is the um, the uh, sales per per brewery, because we've had so much growth with so many new breweries that are coming into play, and I worry that okay or I consider okay are they just cannibalizing themselves? Is the industry growing or are we cannibalizing ourselves? In that sense, the peak in my numbers on an average monthly sales per brewery was right about March 2018. And then it's been dropping since then. There's a big, big drop when COVID came about and then bounced back by about March 2021. So about a year there that they were really feeling that, but as more and more breweries have come into place, it's drifted down a bit Not hugely, in fact.
Speaker 2:I'll say that the end of 2024 actually started to to bump back up. So we may, you know, maybe seeing the you know, either a leveling out or or a bouncing back up, but but it does seem to be that that you know that, as an industry as a whole, it's it's it's had a had a bit of a rough spot ever since, you know, in 2022. Yeah, that's period, it's, it's. It's had a had a bit of a rough spot ever since, you know, in 2022, that kind of, yeah, that's period and so now the the size of the proverbial pie is smaller and there's more.
Speaker 1:There are more breweries that are coming to get their piece of the proverbial business. What is the beer business?
Speaker 2:yep, no, that's, that's exactly right. And and another thing that I really like to look at a chart I like to look at is the percentage of distribution. So we have the okay, here are the beer sales that are going on in all these breweries, all these craft brewery tap rooms. We do have from the state, the total distribution numbers. We can't disaggregate them, it's just total, but we can, you know, take the ratio. Okay, how do our you know, you know, taproom sales compare to distribution sales and what they show is that it's been flat and kind of coming down since about right about that same time, march 2022. And so what that tells us is that you know, if anything, that the decline in craft brewery sales in that March 2022 period to now has tracked a bit under what the you know, the performance for the overall industry is Not a ton. It's mostly a flat line percentage of distribution, but it is a little bit below.
Speaker 2:Now the other part of that just if you were to look at the okay, what are the last 12 months of distribution? That's everything, that's not a craft brewery taproom sale were to look at the okay, what are the last 12 months of distribution? That's been, you know, that's everything. That's not a craft brewery tap room sale. That's been down to, you know, in that same period of time. So you know what I'm seeing in the numbers and again, I'm not an economist, you know, I'm just a guy. But is that really since March 2022, but is that really since March 2022,? The Florida craft brewery industry has has suffered, but it has suffered in line with what craft beer and beer frankly generally has has suffered in that same period as tastes change, different demographics go in different directions, and so it's it's a bit of a rough spot for for the industry generally.
Speaker 1:So there's no so. So you're not seeing. So it's not like distribution sales are decreasing, as taproom sales are increasing and they're, and brewers are reclaiming some of that share in their own four walls. It's more.
Speaker 2:You're seeing declines from the overall numbers all over the place. Yeah, I, I, I am, it's, it's seeing declines from the overall numbers all over the place of that are down in close to the same percentages, if maybe a little bit more, you know. So, craft breweries maybe a little bit more in that as a beer sales per brewery as we continue to grow, you know the number of breweries in Florida. Those sales have been down too, although it has, in, say, the last quarter of 2024, ticked up just a bit. And so that might, you know, might be, you know, indicative of, you know, some good things to come. But we got to wait to see. But it's still still been a tough couple of years for breweries.
Speaker 1:So that that kind of echoes the, the number, the number of breweries that have been going out of business. I mean, it seems like every month or two. Every month I've reported on at least two to three on a good month, only two to three that have that have gone out of business, whereas some months it's more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and unfortunately, you know, I just just you know before we hopped on here, I was looking at your website and saw the update about one of those which was our client and you know, very, very unfortunate that they didn't weren't able to make it last longer. So, yeah, no, it's very hard. I mean, you know not, I certainly don't want to suggest that that you know, my pain is anywhere compared to what? What the the pain that that these entrepreneurs go through as they're wrestling with this Um, but it's um, it's, it's, it's. You know it's hard to watch, it's hard, you know it's it's. You know it's hard to watch, it's hard, you know it's hard to watch. People, you know, have put a lot into this, worked hard, and they do, you know, and they do, you know, the very best they can. And you know, sometimes it doesn't work, and there's not always a great explanation of why it does or doesn't work, and so you know, I feel for them, you know, quite a bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's a good point, is that nobody just starts a brewery on a whim and is an overnight sensation. I mean, you're talking about months, years of sweat equity and blood that's poured into a business that just one, a couple of bad months can shut down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, for sure, no, it is. It is very, very tough.
Speaker 1:What kind of surprise have you seen? Any surprises, I guess, in the past three to six months that are making you kind of optimistic? Or are you seeing more clients coming to you looking to open breweries? Or are you seeing, do you get when people are closing? Do you get those calls as well?
Speaker 2:I do get a number of those calls as well, and we, you know, there are some things to deal with. Just any time a business, you know, is considering going under, there's a lot to think about and pay attention to. So we get those calls. I guess what surprises me in a hopeful sort of way, is that there are people who are still buying breweries or, I'm sorry, opening breweries. There are people who are buying existing breweries and I think in terms of what are positive that's actually probably the most positive thing that I see is is when there are, you know, existing breweries are being bought and sold, and why I say that that is, you know, positive, it's because I get it.
Speaker 2:You know this is a hard business and sometimes people who have done it for 10 years, they're tired or they're just. You know they've, you know they did what they could with it and the best thing that can happen for them is that someone can come along and take it and continue to run it, maybe tweak it, maybe change the name, do some things to it, but it's really healthy for the industry. You know that there is a market in people buying and continuing on breweries and have had a number of opportunities in the last year, particularly to work with folks in that situation. So that's very, you know, very, you know very positive. But yeah, just generally in terms of surprises, you know people still open breweries. You know there are, you know at least two a month. You know two between two and six a month you know are coming online, based on what I see, and so that's really really, really good. It's good for the industry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's good to see and there's a lot more used equipment up there now for sure there's a lot more used equipment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you see breweries shifting their operations or shifting what they're doing? Do you see distilleries? Do you see what is the? How is the brewer surviving from what you see? How is the brewer moving forward?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it is, and it's, you know, again, I've been doing this for 10 years working with these folks and it is. It is always about, you know, making you know the changes to stay current and stay relevant. So, back in the day, you know you, you know, going back to the hourglass, you know it was, it was not a, not a glamorous location where they first opened, um, and that was fine. We had a number of breweries that were just, you know, old garages, you know, with some some picnic tables or folding tables and a, you know, a one barrel system. You know, and, and that's what it was, well, you know, that was fine.
Speaker 2:Then we saw, you know, mmm, within, you know, five years ago or so, people really get started yet clued in okay, well, we need a food. You know we need to have a place. You know, if we're gonna, if we people really get started to get clued in, okay, well, we need a food. You know we need to have a place. You know, if we're going to have people come and stay, we need to give them something to eat.
Speaker 2:So we had a lot more people add food offerings and things like that, and then we had, you know, more people who wanted to be able to provide cider or wine alternatives or things, not beer. So we saw a lot of people adding winery license to the mix and now, yes, so now it's been the distilleries, you know, okay, can we now add distilleries to to the mix, even, you know, and and that's been, you know, kind of a trend as well as just non-alcoholic beverages, and so a lot of folks are doing more of, you know, the NA beverages, seltzers, things like that, just to always kind of be trying to meet what the market is looking for. So, yeah, very, very much. So there's always something new.
Speaker 1:Gotcha, does Florida still not allow a brewery to have the same building as a winery, that you have to operate in different facilities?
Speaker 2:No, that's not exactly the case. So what I mean by that is it is possible to have a single premises, a single building, in which you have a beer operation, a wine operation and a distillery operation. Now, it could be a bit tricky. You know there are rules that the federal government have and there are rules that the state government have, especially the federal government. It's very much about keeping separated the products from a tax reporting standpoint, because there are different excise tax rates that apply to beer than wine, and so from an audit standpoint, they want to know okay, you got to have a place where the beer goes and the place where the wine goes. So those kinds of things From the state level it's permissive, but it always goes back to the well, the statutes don't really cover that, and so you're dealing with the ABT and us and others trying to interpret them in a way that, okay, can we do it? You know what does that mean in this case, but more often than not it can be done. One of the things that in my world you know, one of the things that in my service makes that much easier to do, is if, for instance, if I'm working with a new manufacturer, a new proposed manufacturer.
Speaker 2:Looking at the plans from the very beginning Okay, where are things? So much of my business actually, and so much of the licensing is all about the site plan, the diagram, what goes where? Where are you putting things? What walls are between things or fences or things like that? So, so that's a big part of it. So, yes, it is very it is possible to do that. It does require some planning and the best place to start with that is certainly before you start putting up walls and start doing your build out and things of that nature.
Speaker 1:Gotcha Gotcha. Ok, that was a nice surprise from. I know that wasn't always the case where they wanted you to have used to be. That was a nice surprise from. I know that wasn't always the case where they wanted you to have used to be. They wanted you to have two separate facilities. Yeah, what do you see as the biggest challenge in opening a brewery right now?
Speaker 2:So the biggest challenge now really has been the biggest challenge for the whole period of time and really in any business it's the upfront capital requirement.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:It's the idea that you're going to start a business that is relatively capital-intensive. You've got to buy equipment, yes, you've got to put money into steel. You are going to sign a lease that and probably have to be paying rent for several months before you can even open in this space. You're going to have to to pay people to to make the beer, to serve the beer, all those things all before you really start. You know turning a profit, and so you know you have to have a fair amount of dollars in advance in order to get you to the point that you are breakeven, and that is challenging. Now, that being said, I've seen some amazing. You know some people do some amazing things with very little dollars, and so you know there are ways to survive, but it is very, it is always very challenging to you know to do that.
Speaker 2:I always say people should, you know, do their business plan, do their projections, you know, find out whatever that number is and then double it, because you know it's going to take that much to just get the runway, to allow your brewery to kind of get in the groove and start operating.
Speaker 2:The amount of money that needs to be put into just marketing, just just pure, you know, letting people know who you are, where you are and and those kinds of things it takes. It takes a lot of work to to get attention for these places, especially in the, you know, these crowded communities. There's a lot going on, a lot of different bars and restaurants and places that people can go um, and so it takes a lot of effort, um, on the marketing side, to to to be noticed and to be able to stay in the game long enough that you can, you know, develop a, you know a group and a critical mass that allows you to continue on um. So so, yeah, so that's very much the the the biggest challenge is just being well-capitalized enough to to give your brewery a good launch.
Speaker 1:Gotcha Gotcha and that that that makes sense. They say the best way to make a million dollars in brewing is to start with three.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, I agree.
Speaker 1:One last question, and then then I'll kind of get to the sign-off here. But in your opinion, what are three to five things, aspects, differentiators, that every successful brewery can have to future-proof themselves?
Speaker 2:That's a great question, so I'm going to have to think about this one. I'm going to have to think about this one. So what are the things that breweries have that future-proof themselves?
Speaker 2:Aside from money. That's a given. Aside from money, I'll give you that I think the ones that do particularly well are the ones who have a community and can stay flexible and meet the needs of that community, and I'll expand on that a little bit. I mean the breweries that I see that quote unquote do well are the ones that are well situated in a community, either in a neighborhood or just some geographic area. You know that people in that area identify with them.
Speaker 2:Some of the best breweries, some of the most quote unquote successful breweries that I see are the ones that are way out in the middle of nowhere, you know, in middle Florida, where there's just there's just nothing else for these people, and so you know that is serving their community. You know, and they do a good job with it. And in some cases, you know, in a big urban place like Orlando or Tampa and things like that, you could still serve your community in a much smaller space. You just have a lot more people that are densely packed, but you could still be successful in that way.
Speaker 1:Well, there are a lot more neighborhoods that you can then be the neighborhood brewery to.
Speaker 2:Yep, correct. So just you know being, you know being rooted in a in a active and vibrant and engaged community, is really important. And then the second part of that you know I mentioned was being flexible to the needs of that community. Being flexible to the needs of that community and that can be everything from what type of beers you serve, what type of non-beer products you serve, just what type of activities you have, you know, do you have food? Do you not have food? Do you have food trucks? You know just all those kinds of things. How well does it? Does it, you know, coincide with the community, because, at the end of the day, every brewery is trying to get people there and trying to get them to stay there. And so you know that is. You know we are over-programmed. You know people, we have lots going on, and so you have to give people reasons and more and more reasons and different reasons to keep coming back and do different things. And so I've seen, you know, lots of different ways, whether it's video games or axe throwing, or, you know bingo, or all sorts of things, all ways to keep people, you know, coming in, and I think that that's important.
Speaker 2:The you know the last thing I'll mention, you know, kind of in the same vein. You know, what helps to future-proof breweries is not only having good external community relations but having good internal community relations. Owners of the brewery, you know that small group of entrepreneurs who you know are putting it on the line. And, more expansively, the staff. You know the people that that they, you know, that they depend on to to make beer and serve beer and do those kinds of things. I mean, I have seen a number of breweries that have imploded, not because they weren't selling beer, not because they weren't a fit in that broader community, but because there was either acrimony or disagreement or tension or things that were going on either within that ownership group or within the employee group or something internal to it. That, yeah, that'll sink you just as fast as anything else.
Speaker 2:That's in this line, and I guess I would throw in, kind of put it in that category too, the relationship between the brewery or the brewery management and their landlord. You know that's a key relationship which, can you know you can sink or swim. I've seen some landlords which are fantastic and just do amazing things for for their tenants and really, you know, allow them to survive, especially during the COVID time. You know those kind of things, whereas you've seen some landlords that you know will cut off their nose to spite their face. You know that just make it impossible. So you know those communities, both external and internal, all those are the things that really make for success and money.
Speaker 1:Awesome, awesome. Well, I think that's yes. Of course, if you don't have the money, that's kind of the the money or the beer it used to be. You know, I hearken back to those optimistic days of my youth when having good beer was all you needed, right. And if you had good beer you could go through the financial mistakes and all of the other things. And you know, reading the books of all the founders of the breweries and the you know recalls they had to do and mistakes they had to live through, and if you did that today, you would kiss it goodbye.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's bygone Now. That being said, I will say that I have, you know, seen a number of breweries, a number of businesses, face some real challenges and have been able to survive it. So, you know, survival is possible. Now, the other thing, kind of on that note, I've seen, you know, a number of breweries, a number of brewery owners, hang on, survive for the time, but it's really just kind of prolonging the inevitable. And so you, you, you know, for my sake, you know, you see them put so much into this and and they really want to, will it to be successful, and that can take a toll on these folks individually. And for me I wonder, it's like, you know, I don't know. You know, are you, you know, is this good for you, is it good for your family, those kind of things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it harkens back to the comment you made too about community, where finding that community, that community, can uplift you. I've seen it a couple of times where the brewery is is not doing well and they just put a post out to the community and and the community response just they come from out of the rafters just to help the brewery.
Speaker 2:So yep, yep, absolutely, yeah, no, at the end of the day, and I think that you know, whatever the you know the slump that craft breweries are in now, I think that people do like the idea, just like I do, of you know, enjoying something that somebody made you know that, that you can go to a place and you can, you know, really you know appreciate that this person, through their knowledge and effort, you know, brought this thing into, to being, and I think there there is a, a, a place for that and certainly an opportunity to to celebrate that, and you know, I think, that craft breweries will continue to do that Awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that's a good way to wrap up. Trevor, if you're game, I have six questions, a six pack that I like to end every interview with.
Speaker 2:So if you're, good, yeah, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1:So the first question I have for you is what is your current favorite beer?
Speaker 2:My, current favorite beer. Are you looking for a specific brand?
Speaker 1:or a typology. Whatever you want to give me, so if you want to name go ahead.
Speaker 2:I'm going to give you a typology and I'll explain why I've really been enjoying a number of good Colches now. I've always liked Colches, but the the weather's good for it. But, and I'll tell you I I don't like to pick favorites or I have a hard time picking favorites. What I really do appreciate is taking a style and enjoying different types of that, just to see the nuances of the differences of it.
Speaker 1:And so.
Speaker 2:I I like to say that I am blessed with a very indiscriminate palate, you know, because I could drink something and say, well, that's good. It's like I could drink something else and say, oh, that one's good too. You know, they're different, but they're both good. So right now I've really been enjoying just good, good crisp Colshas.
Speaker 1:Okay, next question If you could only drink one style, what would it be?
Speaker 2:One style I would have to do a. You know I'll call it an American pale ale, used to be, we just called them pale ales. But I think I'll be more specific American pale ale, you know just. You know I love, you know I do like the. You know the balance. I do like something a little hoppier, and so those usually fit the bill pretty well.
Speaker 1:Okay, next question what's the last beer you had that changed your mind?
Speaker 2:The last beer I had. That changed my mind. This is a great question. Um, so I would say um, would say um, I will, I'll say this and I'll um, I'll throw out, you know, a shout out on on this one. Um, I had, um, you know it's been a little while, but um, tripping animals, no mamas. Um, mexican style lager, and and where it's very good I enjoyed. Where it really changed my mind was just in that, you know, can Mexican-style lagers be any different? You know, yeah, you know, is there. You know it seems like, oh, you know, they all kind of taste the same, but no, you know that one was, and there are others, but that was one that's like, no, really very different, very refined. You know, I really enjoyed that one particularly awesome, awesome.
Speaker 1:Then next, when it comes to beer, what do you wish?
Speaker 2:you really understood when it comes to beer, what do I wish? I suppose that, um, I wish that I don't know. I, you know I'll. I'll say it this way. I don't know if this is a positive or negative, but you know, I, I wish that I better understood. You know the fuss, I will say, over New England IPAs, and I mean, I get it, I've had, you know, you know, and they're good, but I just, personally, I feel there's too many of them and not enough. You know other other good stuff and so, you know, maybe somebody out there could really, you know, you know, show me, you know, oh no, I'm not appreciating the subtleties of it, I'm not sure, but I, you know, they're fine, but they're not, I feel they're, they're overrepresented at the moment.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, next, uh, what is one thing you wish everyone knew about your and it's usually about the brewery, but in this case, about you and your business.
Speaker 2:So that's a great question. I wish that you know that everyone would understood that. A couple things One, that I do want to help them. I do want them to be successful. Two I know some things, but I don't know everything.
Speaker 2:I I know what I know from just my experience and training, but there's plenty about this that I don't know. So, for instance, you know, I barely know how beer is made. I don't know. You know a ton about how you know the tax reporting happens. I mean, I deal with this all the time, but I don't, I don't, you know, plug in those numbers. It's just not something that I do.
Speaker 2:And so I wish generally and I do get this, so I'm not saying that this is foreign to me that you know people. You know, generally speaking, I want people to know when it's time to call me and when it's not time to call me. You know when it's time to listen to what I say. But, but you know, make a decision that maybe isn't exactly what I'm telling them to do. You know, just to, to be the business owner at the end of the day, I want to provide advice, but always, always, it is their business. They got to own it, live with it, those kinds of things, and so I definitely want people to. I want people to come away from any kind of interaction with me feeling empowered and able to better run their business and tackle the legal aspects that are related to it.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay. Then finally, what is the greatest lesson you've learned in the beer industry?
Speaker 2:The greatest lesson that I've learned in the beer industry, um, um, I've learned that brewers, people who engage in this business, are incredibly creative and warm and helpful. I don't think I've ever seen an industry that is more supportive of their competitors. They're collegiate in that way and so and there's a lot of room for for optimism. So I think that again, I've been doing this you know, kind of had a special focus on this industry for over 10 years now and still very much enjoy it, so much enjoy my my interaction with it, with breweries and people who want to get into the business, and it's for those reasons Awesome, trevor, thank you very much for your time.
Speaker 1:It's been great talking to you and I will I wish all the best in the future.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you too, and all the best to Florida Beer News. Appreciate your work.
Speaker 1:That was my conversation with Trevor Brewer of Brewer Long. My thanks to Trevor for taking the time to speak with me about his story and what he sees happening in Florida beer. Are there any guests that you'd like to hear on the show? Reach out. I'm at social media, at FLBeerNews, or mark at FloridaBeerNewscom to let me know what's going on in your world beer-wise. I want to thank our podcast sponsor, copper Tail Brewing, for their support of the show.
Speaker 1:Copper Tail Brewing is located just outside Ybor City, across from Ikea, and has been brewing Florida-inspired beers since 2014. Available in distribution all over the Sunshine State, as well as in their tasting room, enjoy Freedive IPA, unholy Triple Night, swim Porter and Cloud Dweller Hazy IPA wherever you can find them. Please remember to like, subscribe and follow BeerWise on your favorite podcast platform so you don't miss an episode. Also, please remember to review the show on your favorite podcast platform to help us reach new audiences. Florida Beer News and the podcast are now on Patreon.
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