BeerWise Podcast
The BeerWise Podcast, hosted by Mark DeNote, editor of Florida Beer News, delves into the dynamic world of craft beer, offering listeners a comprehensive look at industry trends, news, and in-depth interviews with key figures shaping the beer landscape.
Each episode explores the past, present, and future of brewing, providing insights into the evolution of beer styles, brewing techniques, and the stories behind renowned breweries. Whether you're a seasoned beer enthusiast or new to the craft beer scene, BeerWise serves as an engaging platform to expand your knowledge and appreciation for the art of brewing and craft beer culture.
BeerWise Podcast
Ep. 40: Em Sauter of Pints and Panels Talks Visual Beer Education
When Em Sauter began drawing beer cartoons fifteen years ago, she had no idea it would transform into her life's work. As an advanced Cicerone and certified beer judge, Em brings a wealth of knowledge to her visual creations, but it's her unique ability to translate complex beer concepts into approachable cartoons that has connected with audiences worldwide.
"I'm a visual learner and I love to draw," Em explains, describing how Pints and Panels originated as a study tool for her Master Cicerone exam. What started as personal notes blossomed when she shared them online: "I just put them on my website and immediately people were like 'I love this!'" That enthusiastic response launched a journey that would lead to two published books, a Spanish-language beer guide, and a career traveling the world to share her beer knowledge through art.
The power of Em's work lies in its accessibility. Her cartoons break down barriers that often make craft beer seem intimidating or exclusive. "It makes beer—some of the most complex topics in beer—very accessible and easy to break down for new learners," notes podcast host Mark Denote. This approach is particularly evident in Em's library classes, where she creates safe spaces for beginners to ask questions they might feel embarrassed to ask in trendy breweries. These sessions often incorporate fun pairings like beer with ice cream or chips, helping people think about beer beyond traditional contexts.
Beyond pure education, Em has developed creative "lifestyle pairings" matching beer styles with everything from NFL teams and Star Wars characters to presidents and TV shows. These playful connections follow principles of climate, coolness, and cherished preferences, making beer appreciation part of broader cultural conversations. When a drawing of Guinness blends went viral, it sparked important discussions about international beer terminology and the cultural sensitivity around names like "Black and Tan."
Whether you're a certified beer judge or someone who's never ventured beyond mass-market lagers, Em's visual approach to beer education offers something valuable. As she continues drawing her way through the beer world one cartoon at a time, she reminds us that learning should be as enjoyable as the subject itself.
Hello and welcome back to the BeerWise podcast. This is the podcast that looks at what's going on in the world beer-wise. Hello and welcome back to the BeerWise podcast. I'm your host, mark Denote, and I am the editor of Florida Beer News. This episode I'm joined by Em Souder.
Speaker 1:Em is an advanced Cicerone, a certified beer judge, co-host of the All About Beer podcast and the artistic mind behind Pints and Panels, a cartoon directed at visual education in the beer and brewing space for the last 15 years the beer and brewing space. For the last 15 years. Em's cartoons have been very enlightening and insightful and she has also worked them into two books Hooray for Craft Beer and Pairing Beer with Everything. In our interview, em walked through her background, how she began drawing pints and panels and where the cartoon is going in the future. Em also produces pints and panels drawings for some unscientific events like football teams, movies, friends, characters, tv shows and more. Em talked through her pairing process as we went through a spontaneous lifestyle pairing.
Speaker 1:I also want to thank our sponsor, coppertail Brewing. Coppertail Brewing, located just outside Ybor City, across from IKEA, has been brewing Florida-inspired beers since 2014. Florida-inspired beers since 2014. Available in distribution all over the Sunshine State and in their tasting room, enjoy Freedive IPA, unholy Triple Night, swim Porter and Cloud Dweller Hazy IPA wherever you can find them Now. Here's my conversation with Em Sauter. Thank you very much for joining me on the podcast. I'm excited to talk to you about pints and panels and visual beer education.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:I'm excited. I've been using your drawings in classes that I teach about beer and I find that they're really helpful. What kind of what was it that? Can you take me back to the beginning, and what was it that got you deciding that this was something that needed to exist?
Speaker 2:Well, the reason that so Pints and Panels has been around for 15 years celebrating my 15th anniversary, thank you. It originally started as a drawing exercise in art school for beer reviews, so I would get to try more beers. But you know, the thing about beer is that it's very regional or local. So, like reviewing a beer in Vermont, you know most people in Vermont can get it, but that's it. A beer in Vermont, you know most people in Vermont can get it, but that's it.
Speaker 2:And so I was taking the master Cicerone exam and I'm a visual learner and I love to draw. So I was like, well, how can I help me learn about stuff? And it really helped. I mean, I didn't pass the master, but that's a very hard exam. You need to multiple. Yeah, kudos to anyone that can do it. But it was.
Speaker 2:It was really helpful to me, to me and I was like I wonder if anyone else would like these, and so I just put them on my, started putting them on my website and immediately people were like I love this, yeah. And I was like, oh, my goodness, this is it. And people have been telling me to do beer education, but before. But like, I'm of the firm belief that you can't tell people to do. You know, like people don't learn it until they learn it for themselves. And so for many years I should have I should have been doing this a long time ago, but I did it when I felt like it was helpful to me, and then it was helpful to a lot of other people, and then it expanded, and then it became a business, which became my full-time job, and I still can't believe that the four-year-old in me, yeah, is very happy that I'm a full-time artist that's outstanding it's very nice, it's a great job.
Speaker 2:I get to go everywhere, meet people. People really enjoy it and it brings people some joy and it brings me joy to create it. So it's it's, it's wonderful. I'm very happy so you started.
Speaker 1:When you started drawing pints and panels, you were working in a brewery um up in the new england area, maine right no.
Speaker 2:So I started pints and panels and art school in vermont. So I was at um I've, I went to summer camp in Maine, but I never lived in Maine. I wish I could. I wish I wish I could live in Maine. I love Maine.
Speaker 2:Um, I was in living in Vermont, so I graduated from the center for cartoon studies in 2011. And that's where kinds of panels was part actually of my thesis, uh, there. And then I moved to Oregon for a year and worked in a beer bar and then I moved back to my home state of Connecticut to work at a brewery until 2018. And then I left there and then started working in the tasting room at Fox Farm, which is in Eastern Connecticut, a small brewery in Eastern Connecticut, which I still do occasionally. Actually, if someone has the flu or someone goes away, I'll jump in for a shift and it's always nice to see the regulars and it's a really great place to work because they were really flexible. You know I'd be like I need to study, I'm taking a month off, and they would say, absolutely Okay, it was really amazing working for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no. Well, and that ties into my question how was it to have to be in the industry and then drawing about the industry, and then how do you keep that? Now that you're not, now that this is your full time, how do you find that inspiration? And how, where do you, where do you pull your ideas from?
Speaker 2:I mean, I still, I still know a lot of people in the industry. So I'm the co-host of the Olive Overear podcast. So every two weeks, don Tess, who's my co-host, and I interview some really great people in the industry and I think actually hosting that podcast keeps me engaged. And then being on the internet you know social media talking to breweries blue skies growing at a quick clip, and that's been good to reconnect with people.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, being on Instagram talking to breweries who you know, people will message me and they say have you ever drawn this? And I'm like, oh, actually some of the best work I've ever done is other people being like, hey, I need this for a class or can I commission you to draw this? And I'm like, oh, yeah, like there was a guy who owns a cidery who wanted the Guinness blends and I had never drawn that, which is crazy because it's such a good idea and it was my most looked at two million people or something insane. Like it went viral and it was also a really great teaching moment because a lot of people in America don't know you shouldn't call it a black and tan.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And so it was a very good teaching moment to be like in Ireland. This is a half and half and Pints and Panels will teach it the Irish way, and there was a lot of discussion of you know cultural and things you know using, or the crazy thing is so Guinness and cider to me as an American is a snake bite.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Or to other people in, I believe, like Australia, it's called a poor man's black velvet, because black velvet is Guinness and champagne. And so people were like you're wrong, it's this. And I was like no, we, but we also. There's so many different names, so it was cool to actually it was a very good learning. The comments were very thoughtful of like oh, when I, like my mom, used to drink Guinness and blackcurrant juice is popular it used to be popular in the 70s and they were like it's what pregnant women used to drink, or if people didn't like the flavor of Guinness, it helped them drink it, ok. Or if people didn't like the flavor of Guinness, it helped them drink it Okay. And so it was just a really like. I learned a lot about the history of like pub culture and how people use different drinks throughout the world, and it was really cool. Some of the comments were garbage.
Speaker 1:I think that's the internet, yeah the internet, yeah I think that's the internet. Yeah, the internet, yeah, but that's that's fascinating to see, to see the cultural blend and the kind of bringing people together over this and because the the you're educating the people in the comment section as much as anybody.
Speaker 2:And I actually, yeah, I don't usually comment Like it's. If someone has a question and it's like what is this? I'll respond, but I usually if someone's in the comment section and they're being a jerk, I don't, I don't, I'm never. That's. My big rule is I'm never going to engage negative comments. It's not worth it. But it is a really like people will have questions and it's fun to be like oh, no, this is you know.
Speaker 2:Or like sources, or because Guinness is such a worldwide beverage, yeah, and a beloved beverage at that, and so it's cool to see it be used all over the world in different ways that I didn't realize and I learned not to call it a black and tan because I called it a black and tan last year and a lot of my Irish people who like follow it were like, hey, you can't do that. And I. It was a great learning lesson for me where I was like, oh my gosh, take a step back. Really sorry, I didn't know. Yeah, um, and then make sure that you know, because sometimes you don't know and it's always good. Beer is such beer, such a worldwide beverage that you're. I'm learning new things every day well and it's fascinating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, personal, it's like to people in certain cultures that's, that's an insult, versus over here it's like oh, I made a mistake, that's serious business.
Speaker 2:And I had no idea and I was, you know, I was incredibly apologetic and I learned something. And then you know, when you make a mistake like that, you take it as a learning lesson and you go on and then you're like OK, let's make sure that other people like if you read, there's a really good black and tan wikipedia page where it's like giant companies like ben and jerry's made a black and tan ice cream, which was a really bad idea, and they, because they didn't know, and it was like, and they were very like, oh, oopsie, you know, like I'm really sorry, but yeah, there were some comments where they were like no, it's a black and tan, and I wanted to be like go to Ireland and order it and see what happens to you. But I was like that's not. Pikes and Panels would never do that. That's not on brand?
Speaker 1:Sure, but the educational aspect of it is is now you're bringing that to people that wasn't there, that they didn't have that knowledge before, and and for those that are open to the learning of it, that's. That's. How many times do you? I mean, you produced, from what I was reading on the website, a cartoon a day, essentially during weekdays.
Speaker 2:Yes, there is a lot of art being created constantly, and so and there's the content my website is basically built out for almost another year in advance oh my goodness okay it's a, it's thousands and thousands of of there's so much art and then.
Speaker 2:But there are some days where things feel very much in the now.
Speaker 2:I know, I know that, I know that you want to talk about ai, art and um, like the thing I did for my pal eric, who was like, hey, let me give you money to draw me as an action figure instead of, you know, putting it into your computer.
Speaker 2:And I was like, well, I'm going to draw that and post that today because it feels there's things in the beer world and there's things in life that are very of the now. And I was like, well, I'm going to draw that and post that today because it feels there's things in the beer world and there's things in life that are very of the now. And I'm very lucky that I can kind of create content and create things to teach people stuff quickly and kind of in a way where it's still relevant. Because I mean, if I had drawn that action figure and posted it in two weeks, but it's things are instant gratification of our society and things being so like there'll be another AI prompt that people will love in a week. I know there will be. Yeah, that's just how it is, and I will say politely please don't do that.
Speaker 1:Sure Well, and I think theitely, please don't do that. Sure Well, and I think the trend. It's amazing how quickly it started from nothing and then now it's all of a sudden it's everywhere and people don't realize. My daughter is into that. She's going to law school but she likes to draw and she posts art and she reminded me she's like you know, that's the machine and she's always to law school but she likes to draw and she posts art and she reminded me that's the machine and anything AI art. She's very against, but it's because it's taking away from the creators and the folks who make their living with art. So I do understand and you're right, if you posted that in two weeks it'd be completely obsolete because it's so quick.
Speaker 2:And there's another, like I have a comic in the tank I want to draw. That's like, look, I'm an action figure and it's like an artist being like please don't do that, you know. Like you know, it takes away this. It's environmentally like you know the things that take the servers to run, it's very wasteful.
Speaker 2:And then next week, week, the same person's like I look I've, they made me a puppy and it's like, oh my god, you know, like people you always get, there's always one person. So, like every week, someone will be like I'm really, or they'll apologize and it's like. I apologize, it's not fine, but it's. You know, you didn't know. Yeah, and I try to keep pints and panels work price. You know that people can afford it because I know art is expensive.
Speaker 2:Yes, and so I try to make like commissions are very reasonable. I do a lot of like architecture stuff. I'll draw whatever you want it's. I'm a business and I want to work with you. Um, but then, like I see businesses that wholly use AI for all their social media and I'm like why?
Speaker 1:Yes, Well, it's free. But then those are also folks who've never tried to make it as an artist or had to be in that particular business as a writer, creator and try and sell things and make people understand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's also just not a good look and you don't get a lot of engagement with them, so you're actually hurting yourself by doing that. Um, I'm okay with like once in a while and I think there's. I'm not fully against like all ai. I think ai can be used in, can be used for certain jobs and other things that help people, but as an artist it's just hard because you watch it take away your job. What?
Speaker 1:if that was your job.
Speaker 2:It's stressful.
Speaker 1:And this is just the first wave. Ai can be applied to so many positions and jobs that people do Yep, absolutely, Totally understand that. Looking at your comics and your inspirations, though, I do want to touch on where you find inspiration for, or is there a general like stream that you find find inspiration for? Or does the beer inspire your art, or does the art inspire you to look at certain beers?
Speaker 2:I don't, I don't know. I find actually I get inspired most when I drive my car, like I get my, and I have to like pull over and be, like write that down, um, like I'll just be. Or you know, inspiration comes from other people. They say, hey, have you done this? Or I would love you to draw this, and that opens up doors to certain other things. And then I've really enjoyed learning about, uh, spirits, and now I'm learning about wine and that's a source of. So I guess the alcohol kind of inspires the art because there's so much to learn about and teach. Sure that it's, it's a lot of fun. And then there's certain artists that I really like.
Speaker 2:When I see an artist who draws kind of my style, like there's a lot of things, I actually just had to turn down a job because the person, what they wanted, I can't, I literally can't draw, and I know artists always have to be aware of their um, not faults, but like they're, they're constricted by certain things they can and can't do. And I'm I'm a cartoonist that I can only draw certain things and the person wanted them, like sitting in a way, and I, I I was like I'm gonna, I'm gonna be honest with you, you're not, I'm not going to be able to draw that and I'm like I'm really sorry but I have to turn this job down. And they were very like it's okay, but at the same time I was you're just kind of not inhibited, but I don't know what the word I'm looking for is. But you have to know what you can and can't do, and there's a lot of cartoonists and artists out there who at first blush don't look like great artists but their work is really stylistically interesting or things you know, gives a response or like, makes you feel something. And I like cartoonists and artists that the simplicity is the goal but it still makes you feel like it's. Yeah, I mean, art can be anything, to be honest. Sure, I don't.
Speaker 2:I mean I remember in arts in college, so undergrad, there is a, there's a cartoonist or he's a nana or he's an artist. Um, I think he's scottish, his name is david shrigley and he has a huge following on social media and he basically draws like it looks like a child drew it and he's like giraffe is angry, you know, and he'll just like write giraffe and thousands of people love it and it's one color and people find joy in these kind of like simple, childlike drawings and I always I remember seeing his work in college and was like if he can have an exhibit at our art museum then I can be an artist, and it's very like. I don't know what the point of this is, but it's just kind of. I get excited by people who are doing making a living by drawing very simplistically and people really find joy in what they do and people really find joy in what they do, and that's and you can.
Speaker 1:I think one of the things that I respect and I really enjoy about your work is that it makes beer. It makes some of the most complex topics in beer very accessible and it makes it easy to break it down for new learners in the beer industry industry people who maybe don't think that nine different varieties of hops are really, really fun to talk about. But you could talk about how the applications of them and the art style is. It's inviting and it shows that it's not that it's much different than if I did it in 3D or tried to illustrate it with AI art or anything like that. So the art style, the simplicity of it, helps make it make people less intimidated of those topics. I think is what I'm trying to say thank you.
Speaker 2:No, I really. I I think the simplicity of it, because art or a beer, like you said, it's really complex, super complex, and so it's. How do we like? It's biology, it's chemistry, it's a lot of science, it's a lot of science, it's a lot of big words. You know stuff like that, and so how do we make it approachable for new people? But also, like beer 202? You know, I know about beer, I know what hops are, I know what a mash ton is, I know how a band of lambics made, but, you know, helping people understand more and being excited about beer. I mean, beer is such a global beverage as well. I that's.
Speaker 2:The thing that is so crazy to me is the majority of my followers on instagram are not american. They are yeah, it's like 60 are outside of the united states. A lot of them are in latin america. I'm actually taking spanish classes. I take spanish classes twice a week so I can be better at my spanish. Um and uh. Yeah, england, canada, uh, but yeah, brazil. So I mean, that's not in america, but yeah, it's a. Really it's cool to meet people. I got an email from a guy today in kiev, ukraine, who's like like hey, I'm building a beer bar. It's about to open. It's new. I want your art on the walls. How do I do that? I'm in Kyiv and I was just like, wow, this is really cool.
Speaker 1:So that's outstanding and that's and it. But I think it also speaks to the global nature of beer and how beer culture in the United States. I remember going to Belgium for the first time and being blown away by the culture there and how different it is from over here, and I think that that speaks to it, because for me I'm isolated in my bubble and if I stay in my bubble too much then I forget that craft beer is only 13% of sales of beer in America, whereas around the globe Belgians export what half the beer they make. So it's a fascinating subject to think that. Absolutely, people in other countries every once in a while I'll see that too, but my audience is mostly American and it's like no, canada, it's huge Canada, england, belgium, all those other countries, so that's really cool. Canada, england, belgium, all those other countries.
Speaker 2:So that's really, that's really cool. My husband yeah, my husband and I were in England on vacation and in the Google maps, you know when, like if you look, it says like restaurants and hotels and whatnot, they have a pubs button and I was like, oh man, that's so cool and I bet in Belgium they probably have a cafes button.
Speaker 1:That's really yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 1:It's so important to them, and they'll maintain that too. I mean pubs. The word pub is one of those that over here is such a different connotation than in other parts of the world. What is what's the biggest challenge you've had in, whether it's drawing something or an idea that's been difficult to manifest, is there any? What's your biggest challenge been as a visual artist in beer.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, I guess the challenge is I mean, people, a lot of people care, so it's not to get people interested. So there's that, that's good. I do wish there was more things I could draw. The challenge is making sure you practice. You know, like if a violinist doesn't play for a certain period of time, they're not as good. And so trying new things, making sure the art you know it, it it's dang to turn down because I can't draw someone sitting and it's like, you know, if you worked on it a little more, maybe you could. So being a better artist is always something that I want to do.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, make it mean making people really love beer and making sure that people understand how, because in america a lot of people consider it a commodity. You know, you buy it at the grocery store with pasta and ketchup and avocados, I don't know, yeah, foods, and so a lot of people don't think about how it's made. I mean there are tons of products that I never think about how they're made and I just buy them and consume them. And so it's getting those non-beer drinkers and I think Pints and Panels is really good at that is saying like, look, this is a really you know, go to the Budweiser factory and see how Bud Light is made because it is engineering marvel of food science is made because it is engineering marvel of food science and it's fascinating. I've taken the budweiser tour, actually several times because it's so. I find it very, very fascinating. Um, and the mill I did. I just did the miller tour in february for the second time and that's it's just really cool to see like a big brewery and then also on the other flip side, going to your local brewery and being like what's that, what's that, how does that work? How does that work?
Speaker 2:You know, answering questions and being, you know, interest and interesting learning, like trying to know more about the world around you and getting non-beer drinkers to realize or not, but like people who consume beer, but People who consume beer in a commodity fashion. I do a lot of beer classes at local libraries. That crowd is my favorite because they're learning but they want to learn. They're there, no one's bored, they have great questions that beer geeks wouldn't ask and they have stories. You know everyone has a beer story and so I get to stay afterward and like talk. You know I was in East Berlin in 1979 and I had this poor style? Do they still do that? You know, it's charming, it's super charming, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I teach beer classes through a rec center with a retirement community and, honestly, one of the biggest things that they want to do is take pictures of the beer and send it to their kids and grandkids. And they want a safe space because a lot of times if you ask questions, some like they have are very elementary, they don't want to get made fun of, they don't want to get teased. Elementary they don't want to get made fun of. They don't want to get teased. That you know. And and sometimes in the, the stereotypical craft brewery that you know, the pinkies up in the metal stools, um, and the edison bulbs, they are afraid that they might get teased about that, and so the the safe space aspect is a big, big part of it too and libraries are so good for I do.
Speaker 2:I mostly teach. I've taught other classes in like new york and massachusetts, but my home state of connecticut, like, and then libraries will have me back. We'll do a lot of a great way to get people who like beer but not like beer geeks is doing like pairings. So like beer and dessert is a really beer and chips is a really fun one because that's not expensive to do. You buy like six bags of chips and then, um, the brewery that I work at, part-time fox farm, donates all the beer. So there's always really good beer and it's just a fun. It's the super. We've done super bowl snacks um pie, ice cream and beer pairings or libraries will have they'll buy ice cream from their local like scoop shop and people get really excited because it's something like beer and ice cream wouldn't work together. A lot of people don't think that works together and it absolutely does and it tastes great and it's a fun way to like get people to think about beer outside the like. What get people to think about beer outside the like? What hager tailgate um football game, baseball game, for backyard barbecue that a lot of people kind of put beer into and yeah, I, I think about I went, I, I didn't like tequila.
Speaker 2:You know, when you're in college and you have like you have jose cuervo gold and you drink too much of it, you get sick, and then you're like that's disgusting, uh, or you just have it in margaritas, which is delicious. But I went to a tequila bar and the bartender was like this is mezcal, this is tequila, this is like reposada tequila, this is anejo and like what? They didn't have to do this, yeah, but walked me through all of it and now I'm like tequila is so good because you just have to find the good stuff. You know that warm keg of pbr in the corner at the, you know, at the, the frat party is beer, but it's not a Chimay White.
Speaker 1:True, true, even though they're similar ABVs, it's very, very, very different intentionality and very different price point. Yep, but also yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That would be an interesting combination Chimay White and PBR and pairing different foods with it and seeing what's what you could do. A really good like PBR. I really like American lagers with sushi Because it's really like fruit, like there's a fruit element and a lightness to it. It's usually higher carbonation and so it goes really well with like lighter dishes like sushi, sashimi, stuff like that. And then I mean mean chimay white is just um, like saison's with beers. Triples are a powerhouse of like gold, the gold standard of food pairings.
Speaker 1:They pair with so much good stuff and so yeah, well, and the, the belgian single, the potter's beer, is such a in in the states it's not as well respected as it is certainly overseas, and it's. It's one of those that every time it's like the one time Chimay white came or Chimay gold came to my market was by mistake Somebody hit the wrong button and there was like two pallets that showed up and so then the distributor has to sell it and they're just like they have no idea. So it was an embarrassment of riches, and then it's gone and it'll probably never come back again for a decade.
Speaker 2:So I remember seeing Chimay Gold on a. I was at a Belgian restaurant in Chicago and I was like wait, we get that. I've never had that before. And I was like I want that and it was so good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. It's been probably two or three years since Chimay Gold came and I actually was in a beer store the other day and I saw it and I was like I don't know that, I want to, you know yeah, knowing that it's got several, several years on in an antique store. Um uh, how, how have you seen your drawings evolve since you started 15 years ago?
Speaker 2:so I switched to the ipad. So I draw digitally now and that's been two and a half years. I was diagnosed with wrist tendonitis and my physical therapist was like, the way you draw and the way you clean up and like because so I was I used to draw everything pen and ink and then I would upload them to my computer and color and clean everything up in Photoshop. But the way I would do that it was a lot of like wrist motion, because you're kind of cleaning and whatnot, and so he's like if you buy an iPad and switch to the iPad, you can do the coloring in there and then that's a broader, more of a forearm stroke I didn't even realize, I didn't even think about that and less tiny wrist movements, and so I switched, which was a huge. The wrist tendonitis is gone, so that's nice for the most part and I feel like my work's gotten a little. It's like cleaner but also looser. I don't know. My work doesn't really change that much.
Speaker 2:I started drawing my style in sixth grade. I liked Archie Comics. I tried to draw Archie Comics and this is what I came up with. And I remember going to art school seeing some of my drawings from high school and they were like, cool, nothing's changed. And I was like, yeah, basically, but the work now is a little more, I think, more the iPad affords a lot more like looseness. I don't even know how to describe that because you have so much different. You know pens and, like you know, I can spray paint, I can draw with a pen. I can spray paint, I can draw with a pen. I can draw what looks like a pencil pastels, painting, charcoal, all sorts. You have every medium at your fingertips and so it's given me I use. I literally only use one, one pen, although I've been using a different one for trying a new style, you know, because I wanted to break out of what I was doing, see what it's like.
Speaker 2:And then coloration I have a palette that I really like. That that was something that they really taught us in art school is that your color and your coloration are also kind of art. So, like, what colors do you use? And kind of use those? You know, are you doing warm, are you using cold colors or which kind of yellow stuff like that? So I have a set color palette that I go, that I pull from, that is in a library, like on my ipad and then everything gets still just thrown up to photoshop where things get kind of put together like a jigsaw puzzle. So I'm not really doing still. I still do it, but I don't really do like straight cartooning where I draw the boxes and it's one page. That's pretty rare nowadays.
Speaker 2:I still do it for certain magazine. I do it for a friend of mine has a magazine called Full Pour which is like a drinks and cannabis magazine. That's new, it's been around for a few years. That's like the one place I do like street comics and I do history comics for her magazine. So actually I'm working on the Goza one right now. But I've done like Icebox, my Box, mostly like classical styles the Doppelbox story that's fake about the monks, that's not true, okay, um, stuff like that. So because beer history is also a lot of like hearsay and yeah, yeah, I mean nobody knew they were making history when they were doing it yeah, and they a lot of things weren't written down, and that's the thing.
Speaker 2:That's crazy is like people talk about hazy, ipa, and where did it come from? And people will mention one brewery and I was like that beer wasn't hazy like I guess they like is the kind of the pre-version of hazy and then so I always kind of push back on certain beer and that's what 12 ago. And no one wrote it down. They didn't know they were making history. So it's a lot of in 50 years. I'm sure it'll be completely wrong who did what, but that's just how it is.
Speaker 1:Well, and when they think they're making history like brewed IPA, then they do write it down and it goes away in like four months.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or cold, which I still like, cold ipa. Well, now there's a lot more west coast pilsners, which is essentially called an all malt version of lower alcohol version of cold ipa. Um, I'm all for evolution. I think that it's a really cool. I always get agitated when people are like new styles and I'm like don't drink it.
Speaker 1:Then yeah, come on. Well, and and this and this business environment, can you argue, is something that brings people in. That's, ultimately, what I go to is that you know the numbers and what the Brewers Association released today. The numbers aren't dire, but I visited four breweries in Tampa that recently opened and one of them was doing no sports. No, everything's quiet. One of them did sports and it was baseball, and they had 60 cars in the parking lot. Everybody on a Wednesday. Everybody else was dead quiet, and it's like the ones I love were dead quiet, but the one that does baseball has 60 people. Not that they weren't good, but it's just. It's fascinating to me to see.
Speaker 2:So if people love the milkshake IPA with raisins and carrots, then Sure, Don't drink it then If you don't want them, it's not for me. But also they'll have a lager or a pale ale. I mean I love. I'm from New England, I love hazies. I think hazies are great. So you know, as long as a brewery, I think, has some, you know a couple options a couple hazies, maybe like a dark option, a couple lagers, Like I think that's great, Something for everybody.
Speaker 1:You know you want people, everyone, to come in and try something that they like, they don't want to, you don't want to have to like settle and be like oh, I guess'll get the that double ipa versus the other double ipa, which, which you know, ironically, 10 years ago you'd be lucky if there was one. You know everybody. When hop slim came out, everybody was chasing it. Now everybody's looking at hop slim.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know things change the beer industry. Everything moves very quickly and then everything is also evolving. Styles evolve. You know the German Pilsner of today or the Goza of today is not the Goza of Leipzig. You know there's, but it's still a Goza, and so it's. There's so much. There's also a lot of different ways you can make beer too. You know I can put in these, you know this color for these pops, this, this malt, and it's a stout. But I can use all different types of ingredients and it's still a stout.
Speaker 1:I find it interesting in talking about especially Gozes and Berliners, how, with some of the fruited sours and some of the innovation that's happening, that base beer is so lost. And so I mean I don't know. I know I've had dozens of Berlinliners, but it's been so much, so long since I've had a base berliner. That it's. You know, if you put a goza and a berliner side by side, I think it would be somewhat difficult to tell the difference at first.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I mean, it depends on. It depends on like yeah, I, I agree goza should have a little more like spite salt and spice to them than a and berliners. But yeah, I don't know, I don't know people making like a three percent berliner.
Speaker 1:I could really go for one of those right now that'd be great yeah, summertime, I mean even even the gozas with a nice salt bite um the fritz beam ones you don't see those or the oh yeah, yeah, yeah the fun little bottle, yeah, that cool bottle, yeah, um, I do want to.
Speaker 1:I do want to bring up, um. I know we're we're times ticking on, but I want to mention your uh lifestyle pairings, because that's always a. Those are fun and when I see those I always kind of look and see if, uh, what is what? Um, where you paired some of the things that I like. So I want to start by talking about your beer and NFL teams and how you found those styles that you paired those with, because I'm a Dolphins fan and I think we got Fruited Berliner, which makes sense because it's in Florida, and with Florida ice. But I'm wondering how you decide what beers go with what teams.
Speaker 2:So in my newest book, which is Pairing Beer with Everything, I actually have a page where I break down there's four C's, because there's four C's with beer and food, which is like cut, contrast, complement and cut, oh clash. Four C's for beer and life pairings, as I used to call it, or like, yeah, calling them is coolness, cherish climate. And I should have the book next, but I don't remember the fourth one. It'll come to me Because climate.
Speaker 2:So are you in a warm like? If it's a cold place, do I want? What kind of beers do I want? If it's a hot like Miami's a cold place, do I want? What kind of beers do I want? If it's a hot, like miami, a hot place. So I kind of went with like a fruited berliner, uh, coolness. So you know what's the most popular nfl team or what's the most popular of this? Um, I'll go with a popular beer style like hazy ipa or any ipa really, and then cherish the things that you love. You pair with a beer style that you love, okay. So in my book I have a girl. That's like my favorite beer style is hellis and my favorite team is the boston red sox, and so that's why I paired them together, okay. And then, oh wait, did I say? I said, said climate cherish coolness, and I, yeah, I don't remember my the fourth one. That's embarrassing. There's a fourth, there's a, buy my book for the fourth one. There you go, there you go.
Speaker 1:That's how I turn it. I only have I have Hooray for Craft Beer. I don't have the pairing book oh, okay. Yeah, the know you were traveling for the, the, your book tour, when I, when I originally tried to schedule so then, what about then? Okay, so how about those concepts with beer and star Wars characters?
Speaker 2:It was very similar. I you know you also well, you also do. Another thing I do is I kind of pair and people I've had people be like please don't do this which is pairing like evil characters with dark beers Okay, Because they're like that gives dark beers a bad name and I'm like but the beers are dark and I'm like I don't know what to tell you.
Speaker 1:But it creates engagement because if people are going to have that conversation and they have an opinion, that's half the battle sure yeah, yeah. And who's to say that darth vader doesn't chow down on imperial stouts when he gets?
Speaker 2:I mean it's it's, it got imperial in it. It's yes, you kind of like you can't not yeah, absolutely, I can almost hear the music.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then I I my one of my other favorites is Titanic and Icebox. When we're talking movies that one's kind of a little dark, but applicable some styles that you're like I definitely think about.
Speaker 2:You know what goes well with what and why. It's also in the book I talk about like, but there's also kind of go with your gut. So, like you know anyone and then like, whatever pairing you choose, especially with lifestyle stuff, is correct. You know there's no real reason and if you have a reason for why you did it, then it's the right answer, and so that's what. That's what I tell people in the book is like if you think that this goes with this and you have a reason for why you did it, then it's the right answer, and so that's what. That's what I tell people in the book is like if you think that this goes with this and you have a reason why, then it is right do people?
Speaker 1:do people confront you or or you know, pull you aside when you talk or appear for your book about any of those?
Speaker 2:oh, I'm, I'm. I know people get upset when I give a beer style they don't like with a thing they like.
Speaker 2:I don't have an example, but I know that that's what you're saying yeah, yeah, but and I'm like I don't, this is this is what I thought, and here's my rationale, and I always have a rationale for why. And and they're like, oh, I guess you know, but people, yeah, people get very hurt when it's like something, especially like something that's like part of their identity, like sports, or like beloved, like star wars, beloved movies, things that people love so much. And I'm not trying to, I never try to offend. They have reasons beyond, like I would never. It's beer, like I'm not trying to use it for any kind of ulterior motive, it's just it's. They're really fun to do. I have a whole list of other ones I need to draw. I have a beer and goonies pairing that I need to work on.
Speaker 2:Um, that's because, that's what you and people are like. Oh, have you ever like the lot of them? You know there's some that I can't like. There's some like it would have killed to do a white lotus one. But I don't watch hbo dramas. So because it's baseball season, I'm watching baseball. Okay, I'm also watching 80s telenovelas so I can work on my Spanish, because those are wild. That's good TV. I did an HBO shows one, I think White Lotus. I did it with Italian Pilsner because that was the Italian. It was, I think, two seasons ago or last season. It was in Italy. Did you do a Game of Thrones one? I did do a Game of Thrones one. I did watch Game of Thronesones one. I did do a game of thrones. I did.
Speaker 2:Well, I did watch game of thrones okay I was, that was, that was a I yeah, I was my. We used to go to my husband's friend's place because we didn't have hbo and so he would, but and it was on after mad men and I watched mad men okay and so I had to. I was like well, I, I guess I'm watching this now, and then I yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, on that, in that vein, I did want to. We talked a little bit about this before, but I did want to see if you'd engage in some spontaneous pairing and talking about and the theme I want to go with is American presidents. If that works for you, we're going to stay out of the modern realm. Thank, you.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that yes that is fine, yes, and so I want to ask you a president, and then you tell me what style you think and your kind of rationale for it. Okay, so you go in nines. So I'm going to go in nines. Okay, and so the first of nine would be Lincoln.
Speaker 2:I mean, lincoln is our probably most popular president and you know he's beloved by everybody, so I would probably do. And he's also like, he's also. Oh, and we're going to be on this podcast for another like hour, if I'm going to give these like long wind, I love and I have, I love the CBC is in Indianapolis in two weeks, ok, and Benjamin Harris that's where Benjaminjamin harrison is from. Okay, uh, are the 19th centuries. Joe biden, because he's, he's between just, uh, not just arthur, that's old school. Uh, grover cleveland. Okay, the two non-consecutive terms, um and um. For isaac, I would just all right. I would say for abraham lincoln, probably something super popular like hazy ipa or double ipa okay, next then fdr, another popular president very popular.
Speaker 2:Um went through a lot of wars, depression. I'd go somewhere like maybe darker he did a lot of stuff with like oh gosh, uh. Yeah, I would say maybe because like I'm also trying to think of like geo, like geographically, where they're from and so he's from like like outside new york city so usually when I something like but it's not upstate new york, I would say some like he was a very strong and also a long president. Yes, so like, maybe something like age beer, like Doppelbach or like a triple or something like that.
Speaker 1:Okay, I like it. I love the presidents Okay, then after that. So I'm curious, this one Teddy, teddy.
Speaker 2:Roosevelt, I would say something high alcohol like something like he would be like triple IPA or like a, like an icebox, you know, like cause he like wrestled bears or like they said he did. I don't know. He was out there with the buffalo you know he got shot and finished his speech. Yes, that is true. I could not do that, no me either.
Speaker 1:okay, so we say icebox for that one. I would do icebox, that is true. I could not do that. No, no, me either. Okay, so Ice Bock for that one.
Speaker 2:I would do Ice Bock. Yeah, I always lean German because German there's a wealth of beer styles that really are very versatile.
Speaker 1:Okay, how about Ronald Reagan?
Speaker 2:For Ronald Reagan I would do something because he's kind of a yuppie. So I would go come in California and something, maybe like a blonde ale or maybe even like a goza or something refreshing, okay.
Speaker 1:How about Andrew Jackson?
Speaker 2:And then Andrew Jackson, apparently. Yeah, he's a tough, also kind of a jerk? Yes, not kind of a jerk, he's a jerk, was a jerk? Yeah, so I don't know, I would do like a barrel-aged stout.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Because there's that story of all the people that, like, attacked the White House and, as they were partying, and they lured them all out with, like a bolt, like barrels of cider and whiskey to get them out after his inauguration. Okay, oh yeah, I would do like a barrel aged out.
Speaker 1:And that goes to tennis, his Tennessee roots as well. And yeah, with the whiskey, yep, yeah. How about Herbert Hoover?
Speaker 2:I was going to say, but he's also like not Supreme Court Justice.
Speaker 1:There aren't many exciting of all the presidents. Herbert Hoover was a Supreme Court Justice. I'm sorry that's Taft, that's Taft, I'm mixing up my presidents. He was in All in the Family theme.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's kind of a sad, sad like he doesn't do a great job well, and he's the one that got stuck in the bathtub.
Speaker 1:I think. No, that's taft. Taft got stuck in the back.
Speaker 2:I don't know why I'm keep mixing up taft and hoover no I saw his chair okay, his giant chair and uh, we went to the taft house in cincinnati which is a it's a natural like national, like uh monument or park, like it's really cool, um, and you can like walk through it and then taft's actually a really cool uh figure, his family is really interesting and like, yeah, anyway, um, I don't know, for hoover I'd pick something kind of like sad, like dark, like not sad, like dark. Miles are great, but like he starts the, you start the great depression. Is who? Yeah, hoover's before fdr, yeah, I would say something like kind of sessionable, I don't know why british, but like maybe like dark, mild or like porter, some kind of like dark, somber beer, because he's ushering in a kind of a sad time in american history.
Speaker 1:Okay, um, what about?
Speaker 2:uh, dwight eisenhower, the general I would, yeah, I would do something kind of like forceful and it's like you know, because he commanded so many people, um, I don't know, maybe something, maybe something like a like russian imperialist town or like a baltic porter, something like that okay, um, and international too yeah, international or like quad. You know something like high alcohol. Like you know, we probably saw a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and like to relax at the end of a long day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I could go for quad.
Speaker 1:It would be great. Okay, you've already used Porter, so you can't use Porter with Washington.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Porter would have been a good one with Washington. And then yeah, same thing with whiskey and barrel-aged stuff. I would go British then Maybe Strong, Bitter.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Because you can also, I like using bitter in its dual form, where a bad team will get a bitter.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Or I mean he fought the you know the bitterness of fighting his homeland to create a new nation. Okay, could be seen as something like that, yeah, okay. Or barley wine.
Speaker 1:Okay, Okay. Um, then last one. Uh, that couldn't do about the guy who legalized homebrewing, Jimmy Carter.
Speaker 2:Jimmy Carter. I mean you could always lean into the peanuts, Okay, Because he was a peanut farmer. Okay, and do like a peanut butter stout or something like that if you wanted to do that. Or I mean his brother also made Billy beers, just American lager, Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, that was a fun exercise. I appreciate you doing that and it gives us some insight into your your process yeah, it's fun.
Speaker 2:I mean you go with your gut, you don't overthink it. There's a lot of choice. You know there's usually more than one choice. I gave you a couple for each and it's fun.
Speaker 1:I should do a president's one for like 19th century, like or like founding fathers would be a good one yeah, yeah, maybe for the fourth of july or you could do two ben franklin and every beer, because he just yeah like to try everything and he was a big wine guy too he was a big yeah he liked to have a good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he lived, he lived well yeah, yeah, very true.
Speaker 1:um, all right, and I appreciate your time. I'm not going to take any more of it. It was a blast talking to you and getting to know you a little bit, and then you have, just so the folks know.
Speaker 2:You have Array for Craft Beer and a second book that's Pairing for Everyone. Yeah, pairing Beer with Everything is the title, and then you can buy that on my website uh, pinesandpanelscom, or if you'll be, I'll be I don't know when this episode airs, but I do a lot of pop-ups that I usually have books for sale, um, and if you buy them from my website, I'll sign you. I'll draw you a little picture and sign it for you and mail it off. I also have I also have a book in spanish as well, um, that was published, so I have that on my website as well. It's called Pints and Panels. It's just a style guide in Spanish If you want to learn about beer styles in Espanol.
Speaker 1:I've got you Very good. Then you're going to be at Craft Brewers Conference as well.
Speaker 2:I will in Indianapolis. I'll have two nights, tuesday and Wednesday, the 29th and 30th of April. I'll be at Sun King from five to seven and the All About Beer podcast. We're doing live episodes, so come and see a live podcast recording starting at four o'clock on both those days. We're doing two episodes.
Speaker 1:Awesome, awesome. Thank you very much, em, and I wish you all the best with it.
Speaker 2:All right, thank you so much, mark, this was great.
Speaker 1:That was my conversation with Em Sauter of Pints and Panels and the All About Beer podcast. My thanks to Em for carving out time to talk about the great work she's been doing with visual beer education and where the comic is headed in the future. My thanks also to Copper Tail Brewing for their support of our show. Copper Tail Brewing is located just outside Ybor City, across from Ikea, and has been brewing Florida-inspired beers since 2014. Available in distribution all over the Sunshine State, enjoy Freedive IPA, unholy Triple Night, swim Porter and Cloud Dweller Hazy IPA, wherever you can find them. Are there any guests you'd like to hear on the show? Reach out. I'm on social media at FLBeerNews or mark at floridabeernewscom to let me know what's going on in your world beer-wise. Please remember to like, subscribe and follow BeerWise on your favorite podcast platform so you don't miss an episode. Also, please remember to review the show on your favorite podcast platform to help us reach new audiences.
Speaker 1:Florida Beer News and this podcast are on Patreon. I've begun new fundraising efforts for the website and podcast in hopes of making some more updates and changes. Check out patreoncom slash floridabeernews spelled out Florida for information on how you and your business can help fuel our growth and get some cool rewards. Florida Beer News also has a new newsletter which comes out each week on Friday. Sign up for the newsletter on floridabeernewscom and have the week's news delivered right to your inbox. That's all for now, until next time when I'll be back to talk about what's going on in the world. Beer wise Cheers you.
