BeerWise Podcast
The BeerWise Podcast, hosted by Mark DeNote, editor of Florida Beer News, delves into the dynamic world of craft beer, offering listeners a comprehensive look at industry trends, news, and in-depth interviews with key figures shaping the beer landscape.
Each episode explores the past, present, and future of brewing, providing insights into the evolution of beer styles, brewing techniques, and the stories behind renowned breweries. Whether you're a seasoned beer enthusiast or new to the craft beer scene, BeerWise serves as an engaging platform to expand your knowledge and appreciation for the art of brewing and craft beer culture.
BeerWise Podcast
Ep. 49: Khris Johnson of Green Bench Brewing believes beer brings people together
The history of a city lives in its landmarks—some beautiful, some painful, all part of the collective story. For Khris Johnson, head brewer and co-owner of Green Bench Brewing in St. Petersburg, reclaiming one such symbol became the foundation of a brewing philosophy that balances exceptional beer with social responsibility.
Green Bench draws its name from the 3,000+ green benches that once dotted downtown St. Petersburg, marketed as symbols of community but tainted by segregation policies that prohibited Black residents from using them. Khris explains this wasn't a name chosen lightly: "These were some serious conversations we had internally... We have to understand what we're actually saying to our community." By acknowledging this difficult history, Green Bench commits to creating a truly inclusive space that delivers on the original promise of community.
This commitment extends beyond symbolism. Khris serves as a founding board member of the National Black Brewers Alliance of America and the Michael James Jackson Foundation, working to increase diversity in brewing industry ownership and production. His involvement with these organizations reflects Green Bench's holistic approach to building a more inclusive craft beer culture.
The technical aspects of brewing receive equal attention as Khris offers a masterclass in decoction mashing—a traditional technique that creates distinctive flavors impossible to achieve through simpler methods. His passion for these time-intensive processes speaks to a broader philosophy: "I find tradition to be quite innovative... It's not something that most people understand because they don't do it anymore."
From the development of their flagship Sunshine City IPA to their pioneering lager program, Khris demonstrates how Green Bench has evolved with the craft beer market while maintaining a clear identity. As lager grows in popularity, their commitment to traditional brewing methods positions them at the forefront of this trend.
The conversation culminates with Johnson's most profound lesson from beer: "This industry is so much better with more people in it, with a more diverse crowd, with an inclusive group of ideas, histories, influences, and characters." It's a philosophy that makes both better beer and a better world—one pint at a time.
Hello and welcome back to the BeerWise podcast. This is the podcast that looks at what's going on in the world beer-wise. Hello and welcome back to the BeerWise podcast. I'm your host, mark Dinote, and I'm the editor of Florida Beer News. This episode I'm joined by Chris Johnson, the head brewer and co-owner of Green Bench Brewing Company in St Petersburg. Chris joins me to discuss his origin story in beer, which stretches into the brewery's backstory, how he became a part of it and what the Green Bench symbolizes for St Petersburg.
Speaker 1:Chris is involved with many causes in the beer industry and related to social justice and equality, as well as lending his expertise to others to help them learn and grow, from the Michael James Jackson Institute for Brewing and Distilling to teaching at the USF Brewing Arts Program in St Pete, to the National Black Brewers Alliance, just to name a few. It would have taken several hours to discuss everything Chris is involved in, as well as the beers that Green Bench specializes in. So this is episode part one, with a second part promised for an indefinite time in the future. But before we go to the interview, I need to thank Coppertail Brewing for their sponsorship. Coppertail Brewing has been making Florida-inspired and Tampa-brewed beer since 2014.
Speaker 1:Enjoy a Freedive IPA, unholy, triple Cloud, dweller Hazy IPA or Night Swim Porter in distribution throughout Florida. Thank you also to Barrel Aged Media and Events. Barrel Aged Media and Events hosts beer tours, curated tastings and other beer events wherever beer can be enjoyed, from in-home tastings with friends to a special birthday party or even a corporate retreat or dinner. Visit BarrelAgedMediacom. Birthday party or even a corporate retreat or dinner. Visit barrelagedmediacom for more information on how we can add more to your next event with craft beer. And now here's my conversation with Chris Johnson of Green Bench Brewing Company. All right, chris, thank you very much for sitting down with me. This is a long time coming. I'm excited to finally get you on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, glad to have you.
Speaker 1:Awesome, Awesome. Well, I like to start every episode talking through kind of your origin story and what got you um, how you got to first into craft beer and then how you get to green bench from there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I got into craft beer in college, um, I was going to USF um in Tampa and, uh, I had recently switched majors from kind of a pre-med track, which was a pretty intense sort of study load, decided I didn't want to go to med school anymore, became a literature major because I liked reading and writing and I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew I could kind of do anything with that. So I guess from that I ended up, like, uh, looking for a hobby, cause I had, like a lot more time on my hands, um, and so when I was you, you backtrack just a little bit when I was um in middle school, my dad was a home brewer, um, so I was aware of home brewing as a hobby from that perspective. I didn't know that much about it. I didn't really pay that much attention to what my dad was doing, frankly, at the time. But I knew he had this hobby that he liked and so, uh, you know, I kind of wanted to try it. You know, I like a lot of things my dad likes too. So I picked up homebrewing. Um, actually, right before I picked it up, I I realized pretty quickly, cause I was 21. I was like I don't even know if I like beer. You know like I've had beer, but you know I don't know if if I like this thing.
Speaker 2:The upside about knowing that my dad was a home or having my dad as a homebrew beforehand for me was that, um, I knew by the time I was 21, and, frankly, before that, there was a lot more out there than sort of the macro beers. So, whereas a lot of my friends only really knew beer, as you know the big three, if you will, and you know light lager for the most part, um, and so I had, I was aware that there were IPAs, I was aware there was Porter, I was aware there was stout and and and and red ales and other things, uh, beyond sort of the main, you know, the main macro beers, um, so I spent, honestly, like a year drinking, frankly, um, trying to understand if I even liked beer. Um, I found, uh, that I really liked it. Um, and specifically, what I realized was you know, I, I, I downloaded on my phone. You get a free, uh, beer judge certification program, the BJCP app. You can download it for free and it has all these guidelines you know it was like 80 something or plus guidelines of beers, and so I would uh, I was fortunate at the time that we had access to some beer by that time. So you're probably talking. This is probably like yeah, oh seven, oh eight around there. Um, yeah, it was oh eight, I think actually was when it when I turned 21. And so, uh, I would go to total wine and do a mixed pack, cause it'd be a wall of beers, but I'd pick like one style a week and I'd do a mixed pack of like one style and I'd sit down with the BJCP guide over the weekend and I'd drink the six pack over the weekend. But I would just read it while I was drinking it, um, just casually, and that taught me a lot, like it taught me not.
Speaker 2:Only, you start coming across terms you don't know. Sure, right, like a simple one, like dry hopping, like I didn't know what the hell dry hop meant. But you read that and you're like, okay, what's that? So you Google dry hopping. Okay, Now I know what dry hopping is. And you come across these other words and you look that up. Oh, I know what this is. And now you just start was that? You know?
Speaker 2:There's many interpretations of individual styles and generally speaking, they can be pretty broad. Like, a style can be all sorts of different flavors. You know, like, not everyone's dry stout tastes like everyone's dry stout, even though there is a technical definition for that style. There was cool range in between and I found that to be the most fascinating part was that, you know, I can have an IPA that tasted like, or a pale ale that each one of them tasted different, but they all, technically, were the same style. Um, so I guess after a year I sort of had like built up enough knowledge to understand, frankly, how to make beer. Um, and then I felt comfortable with investing the money it would take, you know, for a college kid to buy homebrew equipment.
Speaker 2:Um, and me and my best friend went to Southern Brigham winemaking. Um, they were on Bush Boulevard at the time in Tampa, in like a warehouse um facility, and went in there and I, frankly, it's kind of blows my mind that first day, you know, I met Devin Kreps the first day she was working there. Uh, I met Jeremy and Brian wing who were working there that same day, who, brian's here with me now, here at green bench, um, and uh, you know, rick Etzman at the time and it w. It was kind of crazy. It was like oh, um, um. Oh, my gosh, I'm blanking on his name. Um, um. Oh my gosh, I'm blanking on his name. Um, I haven't seen him in a few years. Holy moly. Um was the original head brewer for angry chair Ben Romano. Ben Romano was there working as well, um, and so it was just kind of crazy. Like you know, meeting people that you know ultimately not just become friends, but a lot of them end up going on to have their own breweries and work in this industry afterwards. Like that first day it was nuts Um. So that that's kind of how I got started Brewed my first beer, which was a kit.
Speaker 2:They had made two more kits. Really liked it. Beer came out really nice, um. Then I decided I wanted to do homebrew, or homebrew all grain. So then I uh upgraded, built sort of a mash on a cooler the same you know, normal stuff you'd see on YouTube and uh, with my dad, he helped me with it, and then I brewed. I wrote a recipe and brewed a first beer and it's the first time I entered a competition.
Speaker 2:I at that point I was a part of Tampa Bay beers, which was the homebrew club at the time, uh, which Devin introduced me to. Is that the one at Dunderbox? It was at Dunderbox, yeah. So I went to Dunderbox, met everyone there, blew my mind Kind of. The community was really really cool. It wasn't a large community but it was very diverse, um, for as small as it was, and, um, everyone was so excited.
Speaker 2:You know that someone else was interested in this thing. They were interested in, and so the sharing homebrew is sharing information. I was like this is awesome. So I guess there was a, there was a, there was a competition. You know that was a thing. So I entered some bottles and then I won like second place in IPA in the state in this comp and I was like, oh, they give you medals for this. So then I was like this is even more fun. So then I I just sort of caught the bug and started doing that, and luckily, at that point is also right when Cigar City opened. So I was able to kind of go in there and meet everyone there and try their beers and kind of be blown away by what they were doing. Um, and then eventually getting my first industry job, which was at cigar city.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow. And then so, from that industry job, then what did you? Gosh, that's such a, that's such a whirlwind, but it's such a and that time bringing back, like talking to Jimmy yesterday, to bringing back those memories of those early 20 teens where it was just everybody knew everybody, and it's grown up and so yeah, yeah, that's, that's really cool, so fast forwarding to Green Bench. And then what? At what point did you decide that? You know, sort of put my fingerprint, if you will, on the scene here in Tampa Bay.
Speaker 2:Um, that would have been right after we built the little brewery at Southern Brigham winemaking. So I, so I was at cigar city. Then, um, left, got fired, went up, cooled everybody though it's all good and then ended up working at Southern Brigham Wine Making. They brought me on not just to work the shop but to help move the shop to the new location, which is currently where it is in Seminole Heights, and with that to build a little brewery there. They were going to get a license and brew and brew there. So I I helped, I was sort of the one that helped them through the process of getting the licensing done and sort of building this sort of makeshift little brewery there. But once we had done that, once we had like gotten our license, then I was like, oh, that now I know the process for doing that, like I think I could do this. Um, and I learned a ton there, um, as well. So that that's kind of when I was like I think maybe I want to eventually open a brewery soon and um, so that would have been that moment.
Speaker 2:Um, as far as it being in St Pete, that didn't happen until I met Nate and Steve um, who are currently my partners who had this idea for this brewery in St Petersburg. I was looking actually in Tampa at first, because I was living in Tampa already. I mean, I grew up here in St Petersburg but I moved to Tampa for college. That's where the scene was. It really wasn't anywhere else at the time. I mean, dunedin was starting that and obviously Dunedin Brewing Company had been there, but Seven Sun had opened and it, it.
Speaker 2:There were more things happening in Dunedin, but St Pete there was nothing happening in St Pete. Um, and so I met I actually met Nate and Steve through Doug um at Cycle, so he introduced us and then I met them and yeah, they had this idea for a brewery in St Pete and I was doing one in Tampa. So we just kind of hung out for a few months and talk through each other's business plans and eventually sort of combined them Um, sorry if you're hearing that I guess you're moving stuff downstairs Um, yeah, so, uh, that's kind of how that came about was just like hanging out and eventually like merging the business plans into what ultimately Green Bench became. Okay.
Speaker 1:And then, how did the name come?
Speaker 2:about. Yeah, so the name Green Bench is an old St Pete reference. The way it came about was originally this was a name that I mean Nate had already. Nate had that name in his mind already. Like Nate really wanted to call it Green Bench, right, okay, before I even met him, like he wanted to call this brewery green bench. Um, and then I remember us having some very long conversations about the name green bench and what that meant and like what, um, what that, what that sort of commitment and responsibility ultimately is and will be um, based upon just sort of the history of that name. So for those that don't know, um in St Petersburg in the early 1900s at one point there were over 3000 green benches in downtown St Petersburg.
Speaker 2:The city used to market itself as a city of the green benches and take out ads um in like newspapers and um for snowbirds, like up North, and say you know, come to the city of the green benches. They commissioned a famous sort of postcard artists to make postcards and all this stuff to like depict people hanging out. The idea was to promote St Pete as a social communal town and show that like this is where you want to come when it's cold as hell up north. Right, you want to come down here and hang out? People can be outside all year long, and it was, for the most part, true. I mean, there was a lot of people that hung out and just sat on the green benches and talked and talked about business, talked about politics, talked about life and everything. However, this is also a time of segregation in the South, you know, and so black people were not allowed to sit on the green benches. We couldn't partake as a community in a lot of things that white people could. For example, like the beaches were segregated, you know. Like parks were segregated, like a lot of the very famous parks and beaches in St Petersburg were whites only, obviously. Things like restaurants and water fountains and restrooms and the normal things, you know, schools, all these things were segregated, and so a lot of these public places although not a written rule, it was an unwritten rule that you could not participate in in regular communal life, exactly, exactly, and so these were some of the conversations we're having.
Speaker 2:Like, all right, dude, like I know you want to, we want to call it this, but like, like, if we're going to do that, we got to have some serious conversations internally, like, if we're going to do that, we got to have some serious conversations internally and we have to understand what, like what we're actually saying to our community. Which, to be fair, he knew that already. Like he said from the very beginning. We said I want to call it Green Bench because I want us to be a communal place. You know, like it was not always communal. That was the symbol for community, potentially misused because of how it was not always communal. Uh, that was the symbol for community. Um, potentially misused because of how it was, you know, executed, um, improperly.
Speaker 2:But he wanted this place to feel like the place where everyone could come together and sit down. He wanted to sort of create, he wanted to speak true to the original vision of what we, at least St Petersburg, advertised the green benches to be. So we had these long conversations about like okay, well, if that's the case, like, we got to tell the whole story here. Like we got to be very, very honest and and and careful and sensitive to, you know, everybody's perspective, cause if you ask sort of white St Petians about the green benches, you hear the same stories every time. It's like oh, I love the green benches, they were great. We used to hang out. You talk to the black community and they're like, oh, I remember the green benches. We weren't allowed to sit on those, like, yeah, that represented segregation to a lot of people, right, and so these were some of the tough conversations that we decided that we wanted to have because at the end of the day and this is why I bought in completely, you know, on a personal level, and I was kind of I was very much on board with calling a green bench because of this.
Speaker 2:I'm from Memphis originally and we, you know, memphis is a fairly sad town, home of the blues, you know, I mean it's, you know it's, it's been through a lot. Dr King was assassinated in Memphis, tennessee, but that's a great example, because in Memphis we don't like hide from any of that stuff. Matter of fact, the Lorraine Motel where he was assassinated looks identical to the day that he was assassinated, and the purpose of that is so that we can all as a community, as an entire community, not just the black community or individual communities we can all experience that tragedy together. The point is to face it, the point is to feel it, the point is to deal with it and talk about it Right and understand it, because if, if I don't understand your experience, then there's no way for me to accommodate your experience or your existence moving forward any better than I have in the past.
Speaker 2:And so the point for Green Bench, and the point of us calling this, was to acknowledge that, hey, this wasn't great for everybody, but our goal is to get it right, is to make it great for everybody. But if we don't acknowledge it, we're never going to be able to move past it. We're never going to be able to say I get it, I understand what you went through. Now I'm really sorry that that happened to as many people as it did. Let's create a place where now we can actually be proud of that symbol and we can be proud that our community is built in a way that's inclusive. And so that's why we called it Green Bench.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. And to take that on as a brewery, how do you so that's a heavy weight to carry, Then how do you do that? So can you give me an example of some of the ways that you carry that vision forward?
Speaker 2:to do. Now I will say what we generally, you know, in in in addition to sort of uh, the name and and I don't necessarily know if everything we do is because we we name agreement, but I will say, a lot of the things that we're involved in are because of just the things that are important to us and are we're passionate about, which happened to be things like that name. But you know, you look at things like some of the organizations. I'm a part of some of the nonprofits that I've not just been a part of, but a founding member of things like the National Black Brew Association of America. I'm one of the founding board members of the NB2A and our goal and our mission is to increase the amount of black owners in the beer industry and black brewmasters in the industry. We want to put production and ownership, um, uh, as uh, we want. We want to put black people in production and ownership in this industry and to increase the amount of ownership that we as a people have on this industry as a whole. We've been doing that now for almost three years, um, you then look at the MJF, for example, the Michael James Jackson Foundation for Brewing and Distilling, which was started by Garrett Oliver. I'm also one of the founding board members of that and I have been, since it started, the vice president right underneath Garrett as the president and assisting him. And so our mission with the MJF is to uh diversify the industry on the production side as well. But it's we. We actually fund scholarships for people of color to go to brewing and distilling schools and then we do our best to sort of place them in sort of jobs. So we've been able to um not just give them education but then put them out there and get them jobs in the industry.
Speaker 2:Um changing literally the, the look of the people that are making the products uh that we consume and we enjoy. Um actually, literally this last week um, a lot of the recipients just went to Yakima, which um was uh, uh, which um assisted by Yakima chief hops. So YCH um funded have a lot of our uh awardees fly out to Yakima. They got to go to hop farms. They got to, you know uh uh, select hops. They got to uh you know, sort of smell and rub hops and and kind of see what these farmers go through and see what that side of the industry is like, which is such a cool opportunity. Um, one of the coolest things you can do as a brewer, I think in the industry is go, is go out to the hop fields. It's, it's very special. Um, there was also beer culture, which was a as a nonprofit um that I was also the vice president of for several years.
Speaker 2:Um, and that was a diversifying the industry um initiative as well, kind of top to bottom, though a lot more um holistic, like, uh, not very, not as specific as, say, just production. You know we were trying to place people in the front of house, the back of house, um, around the house, like everywhere around it. You know, uh, in the tasting room. Um, if you, if you have a, you know if you're a black person or a person of color with a finance background, you know how you can get in the industry as a whole, like showing our communities that your skillsets are needed in this industry. That maybe you don't think wants you Right, but like no, you have. You know, if you're a writer, put hooking them up and getting them scholarships and or or paid internships with, like you know, hop culture magazine and you know these, these publications, that that's what they do for a living, like you should be. We need your voice as well. You know um paid internships and breweries to work as well.
Speaker 2:So that was, that was a lot of the things that we did. We also had scholarships for, like Cicerone, for front of house people, um, and anybody that sort of wanted it. So, um, it was, yeah, so those are a lot of the initiatives that you know. For example, I'm personally a part of um sort of outside of just having a brewery named green bench and sort of. You know the weight that that is and the message that that is and the importance I think for our community. So, yeah, I think I would say that, outside of the name itself, we do our best to sort of name our beers and our products, like to sort of reference the history of St Petersburg, to reference who we are, where we are, our community, celebrate our community. But the goal is just to tell the entire story of our community rather than leaving anything out.
Speaker 1:How do you, how do you balance that with being at the head brewer also of your brewery and working production and managing all of the, all of your responsibilities as a business owner on top of all of those, the weight of everything that's to me. I asked you when you came in here how you sleep, Cause it seems like there are times where I've tried to get you on the podcast and you're just gone for a long time. Yeah, I mean, it's certainly understandable with everything that there is to accomplish, but then how do you kind of balance that with your personal life and the responsibilities of a business?
Speaker 2:Not always well. Admittedly, it's hard, it's very tricky, it's hard. I do think that I've gotten a lot better at it, I think early on there was definitely some times in the last five years that I would say I felt like I was treading water a bit with everything. Not everything requires as much demand all the time, so that usually is somewhat of a balance. The real answer is just having a team that supports you, though.
Speaker 2:Somewhat of a balance, the real answer is just having a team that supports you, though I mean the real answer is having, you know, a team here that you know we've trained, I've trained, you know, to be excellent Um, and they are um and they can handle a lot of responsibilities.
Speaker 2:So I'm able to sort of to do a lot of these things because of the team that we have, not just here at green bench, but the team I have at the MB2A, the team we have at the MJF you know, the team we had at Beer Culture, and so like at USF even. You know I teach at the university as well, and so like having the right group and support system to, in each of those fact, those segments, not even to freaking mention, like my family life, you know, like having an incredible partner, having an incredible stepson who, like they support me as as much as as I support them, right, and so like understanding that these responsibilities are things that not just that I'm passionate about, but that are helpful. Um, you know, that's, that's how you do it. You can't do it without support and a team. Absolutely, I've tried.
Speaker 1:It doesn't work. Yeah, yeah, no, ellen, no man is an Island. So, yeah, absolutely, um, I want to. I want to kind of move on. That was just, that was awesome, but, uh, I want to talk about some of the beers and some of your vision for the beers, and, especially right now, it's impossible not to talk about lagers, um, and I think that, um, we might finally Jack, or, uh, yeah, jack from Jack's Abbey. Jack hinted that this isn't the year of the logger and still hasn't come. Um, I think we're as close as we've ever been, though, and so I want to think, I want to ask you, how did you get into loggering and how did that become such an integral part of your portfolio?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean I guess to sort of jump on that, that topic a little bit. I have no idea when the year of the lager is exactly going to be. I will say it does feel like we are closer to your point. I will say this as well, though I mean lagers been winning for a long time. It is the most consumed style of beer in the world and it has been for over a century and is exciting how it got to us.
Speaker 2:I would say, you know, to start, when we first opened, we had no lagers. I had never really made lager other than, like homebrewed. Some Part of that was kind of because, frankly, when I was homebrewing, you know, you were kind of bullied out of making lager. To be fair, everyone was like, why would you make a lager? You can buy lager of every store you go to. It's available.
Speaker 2:The point of craft is to make things that are unique and interesting and maybe even culinary inspired and just out of the box, wild and crazy and different, um, and maybe more aggressive and flavorful and all these things Right. And so it was like you kind of got. You were kind of laughed at if you said you wanted to make or that you liked lager. Um, and then, oh, and the other practical sort of reason that you were, you were ever given was um, you know, it takes three times as long to make a lager as it does to make a pale ale.
Speaker 2:So why would I? You know, it doesn't make sense. The tank residency time doesn't make sense. Like I'm going to make way more beer, you know, over the course of the year than if I decided to make lager. It doesn't make any sense. So I kind of just never. I was never taught, I was never trained on how to make lager. You know, and not that I wasn't interested, I think I was always kind of interested, I just never. There was no reason to Sure. We didn't really have a market for it either. Yeah, just based on what had been established already. No one was interested in that.
Speaker 1:Well, and the ones that were already had their favorites that they drank for forever, that's exactly right, right and so and and.
Speaker 2:And. The truth is is when you had somebody that loved lager that came in, they would ask you for the specific lager that they wanted, and usually it's kind of that maybe we weren't as interested in making at the time right. So because lager is very broad now, we know that now as an industry. But I think at the time the concept of lager although we knew there were other styles of it, the market really just was demanding of like one style which was sort of macro, conglomerate, industrial lager. Yeah, and that was not necessarily something that we as an industry were interested in making number one, necessarily something that we as an industry were interested in making number one and number two. We didn't think we could make it as well and as consistently. I think I know me personally. I didn't think I could, but I would say as an industry I think we didn't collectively think we could and we were probably right at the time.
Speaker 2:Anyway, so the reason that I sort of got into it was twofold. One, I'd always kind of wanted to do it. I just didn't know how to do it and the opportunity came about really with the Rays across the street, so the Tropicana feels like across the street from us and we know those guys pretty well. They used to come over here I mean, their office is right there in the stadium so they would come over here after work once or twice a week and hang out and drink beers. So we would kind of chat and hang out and eventually they asked about making a beer together, and so we had a few meetings and ideally it would be a light lager, you know, sure, but the truth is is I? I was honest, I was like I never really made these before and so like I don't feel comfortable guaranteeing that I can do this and putting it in the stadium.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I just didn't. I'm not going to make that commitment Cause I don't. And putting it in the stadium, exactly I just didn't. I'm not going to make that commitment because I don't. I'm not confident that I can necessarily deliver right now, but if I'm given the opportunity to sort of work towards it, I will work towards it. And so the first year we actually made a cream ale to make it sort of simple something, something similar, and I would, I would, I was a blonde ale and then I was basically would. Um, we sold that. Call it two seam blonde. While that was happening, I was trialing lager. But in addition to trialing lager, I was drinking lager.
Speaker 2:Kind of go back to when I got into beer. Originally I was on a mission to discover what I liked, and not necessarily what I liked, but more not just what I liked, but more like what will work here. What is our environment, what is the green bench flavor? You know I gotta it has to be a purpose, right. So in my travels and everywhere I went, I was trying craft lager and actually where I found it was home, I went.
Speaker 2:I went home to Memphis for the first time since we had opened green bench. I think it was like we were like four years old and, um, to visit my mom, just hadn't been home in a while. And so I got home and by that point, there were breweries available. You know, there weren't breweries when I was there before that. You know, last time I was there, I think it was like 2012 or something, okay, and so this is like much different, 2016 or something like that. Um and uh, yeah, so I, I went into this brewery called Wiseacre that I that had opened up at the same almost a month before we did actually in 2013. And, um, yeah, so I went in there and they had this beer called tiny bomb and it was a American lager is what the American Pilsner is what they labeled it as and I ordered it and I really loved that beer. Like, I was like holy shit, this is really good. And I immediately thought, like this is the flavor profile that I can envision in St Pete, florida and our community and our climate.
Speaker 2:You know, before that lager and Pilsner, specifically, cause I knew I wanted a Pilsner, right, I knew I needed to make a light lager for the Rays and build that, but I didn't want to just make a light lager, I wanted to be able to use the yeast to make different things and I also wanted there to be a brand for green bench and I figured pilsner is the one it should be. Otherwise we had hoppy beers at the time anyway it was sure sunshine city, green bench, ipa and happy hermit pale ale. So it was like all hoppy beers. Let me get a pilsner, something that has hops and it has character, dry, like it finishes like a green bench beer.
Speaker 2:But but to be fair, the only craft lagers that I were pilsner specifically, that I would drink and I'd find were German Pilsners which honestly, kind of all tasted the same to me, like everybody's tasted the same. And then there was Bohemian Pilsner that I would see. But at the time I remember even thinking, even reading the guidelines and drinking the beers. This is a weird style that I don't think anybody understands.
Speaker 1:I definitely don't.
Speaker 2:And when I'm drinking everybody's, I was like I don't think they understands. I definitely don't. And when I'm drinking everybody's, I was like I don't think they know what this is either, cause I doubt that this is how it tastes in the Czech Republic or wherever, like for whatever reason. It just never. They never clicked. They actually tasted more like sweeter German pilsners and I'm like I don't think that's it. I think there's more to it than that. So I stayed away from Bohemianills because I was like I don't know it. I don't think anybody else knows it, especially brewers. When I was drinking I was like I don't think any of these brewers know what they're making. And so then I had this American Pilsner and I was like this is it? I never thought about American Pills ever until I had that one.
Speaker 2:And I met with David, the owner brewmaster there, and that day and we hung out and I was like, dude, this beer is so good, and so we just became really good friends immediately. Um, and so I basically modeled postcard pills after that beer. You know like it has a very similar profile both 4.7%, both about 30 to 35 IBUs. Um, he was using Mount Hood hops at the time. I use Mount Hood. He doesn't anymore, but I do on mine still. He has a 5% adjunct. His is his is um honey. We use corn in ours um augustine or yeast. I use the augustine or yeast as well, so it's a very similar profile that was based off of his. Now ours has evolved to something different too. We do decoction on it. Now too, it's a single decocted beer, um.
Speaker 2:But that was originally how, how lager came to be a part of our profile. Okay, so while I was making postcard pills and dialing that beer in, we were also making this light lager and trialing that, which ultimately became 4C American Lager. But it's also became our brand, bench Life Premium Lager. Okay, so we introduced a 4.5% American style light lager that was a corn lager, and then we introduced a 4.7% American style pilsner that is, postcard pills at the same time, and that's how lager became a part of what we do. And then I just was not satisfied, ending there with sort of learning and my knowledge of lager. So then I just went deep down the rabbit hole of knowledge and understanding what these were, and continue to explore and learn.
Speaker 1:And do you? Does that? Has that learning stopped? Have you found God?
Speaker 2:No, I'm, I am way, way down the well right now and it is um, it's fun, it's really really cool. I love it, I love it and I'm constantly learning. I'm definitely at a point now where I will say this I will openly admit I do feel like I am now somewhat recently in the last year or so, I personally feel like I'm now making some of the things that I'm the most proud of on the logger side and I think I've been really good for a long time and getting better and better and better. But I think now we have an understanding as a production team and as producers really about lager that I don't think as many, many, many people in the world do, and that's just because of our dedication to it.
Speaker 1:And that's so ironic because I think what you were pointing out in the beginning was that lager was kind of what craft was rebelling against, and like so many, like cans, like so many aspects, we realized that, you know, the answer was right in front of us and we just didn't see it because we were too busy being mad that somebody had taken this beautiful thing and kind of bastardized it or or put it to such a point, and then now here we are kind of reclaiming it in the craft world.
Speaker 1:Um, but you also brought up, you also brought up a buzzword that I wanted to ask you about, which is decoction as a technique. And how do you decide what beers? Because I was talking to um chip at live oak and he mentioned that, um, they're very proud of what they decoct and how many times they decoct simple things and what? Um, how do you decide what is decoct and how many times they decoct simple things and what? Um, how do you decide what is decoction and how do you decide what gets it? And you know your quadruple what gets a quadruple decoction versus a single or a double?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, uh, decoction is a process in which uh in the mash, so your mash, is your grain and your water mixture together, um in which you take a, you separate a portion of it, you eventually will bring it to a boil um for a certain amount of time and then you add it back to the main mash and what this does is it increases the temperature of the main mash. It does a lot more than that, but that's the very simple part of it. Like, um, a lot of people will describe the history of decoction as a process that was used before thermometers were invented for brewers to, to, to sort of modify and bring their grain, their mashes, to different temperatures, cause there was really no other way to do it. Um, you could put a heat source on it, but then you're going to scorch most of it kind of stuff. So you, if you boil a part of it and then add it back, it kind of increases these temperatures and stuff. Um, how you decide uh to to?
Speaker 2:Okay, the question on how you decide what to decoct and how to decoct it is can be somewhat complicated. I'll try to simplify it as much as I can and say there are many different ways to decoct and different processes to decoct even more, even more complicated and more varied than, say, a single decoction versus double decoction versus a triple decoction. There are multiple versions of single decoction. There are multiple versions of double decoction, right, there are multiple versions of triple decoction, but generally speaking they're about the same, because you're going to hit all your temperatures. Just based on just math on how that hits, three is going to get you all the way to the end, no matter kind of what you do, but those first two. There are many different ways of decocting within each one of them. Uh, to sort of put that slightly in a perspective, we'll start with single decoction, right? So the, the, the, the way that probably most people decoct today in, say, craft beer in the us and and you know other sort of, maybe larger breweries in europe and stuff too, is what's called a single decoction to mash out, and what that means is so you have these, you have steps right throughout your whole process, right? So let's say you're in that I'll use, I can do fahrenheit or celsius. I kind of try to do them both real quick. So you're sort of 50 celsius to 55 degrees celsius, which is 122 Fahrenheit to 131 Fahrenheit. That's called a proteinase rest, so that's a protein rest. The idea there is that you're going to create a lot of. There's literally an enzyme, a proteinase enzyme, that is sort of breaking down proteins to these smaller sort of chains that allow you to have body and head retention.
Speaker 2:Right now, the truth is is a lot of our malts are highly modified. What that means is, back in the day, brewers used to get grain damn near right from the farm at one point right, and then eventually they would start to. You have, then they have to modify those grains. Essentially, you have to germinate them, which is, you know, allow the endosperm to be exposed by hydrating it, malting, Malting exactly. Then you kiln it, which is to dry it. But all these processes affect how much proteins in the malt, but also how much access to starch that you have.
Speaker 2:The quality of the malting is very important for the modification, the process itself. We have what's? When I mention this, I say highly modified malts. That means that we have malting down to a science, we have the modification down to a science. So most of the time these maltsters are getting it from the farm whether it's their farm or buying it from other farmers and then they have precise, incredible technologies and processes to modify the grain so that, generally speaking, when people say you don't have to decoct, they're right. You don't have to decoct because right now, in order to make a great beer, all you really need is water and modified grain and you can kind of make great beer. Decoction gives you more than that, and you can kind of make great beer. Decoction gives you more than that. But originally decoction was used, like I said earlier, because there were no thermometers. They raised the temperature, but also because these malts weren't well modified the way they are now. So you kind of have to get more out of it Now. By not decocting, what we also have lost is some flavor contribution and some character, as well as fermentability profiles contribution and some character as well as fermentability profiles. This is where not everybody completely understands this, or at least wants to spend the time understanding it or doing it, because it is time and energy costly, right? So when I mentioned single decoction to mash out, you have these steps. You have your proteinase rest Most of the time, these well-modified grains. The reason I said all that was because not all of them really need a long protein rest anymore. Actually, there's a lot of data to prove that longer protein rests can actually do the opposite of what they used to do, which is decrease body now and decrease head retention a little bit. So that's what that range is.
Speaker 2:The next range is beta amylase rest. This is going to be where your beta amylase enzyme converts starches into fermentable sugars, or as we call them, simple sugars. This is usually in that range of like 62 celsius to like 65 celsius, which is like 143 you know, 3 to 149 fahrenheit. Okay, um, this is where you're going to make dry beer. So if most people are just doing single infusion which by historically speaking, is an English process, like English brewers do single infusion, where they go in at one temperature, rest there for 60 minutes and then they louder, and most American brewers were taught by, were descendants of English brewing. That's why the prevalent sort of process is that. Also, it is the easiest and simplest one, and we have ingredients that are so well modified that that's, frankly, all you need to get enough sugar to make a delicious beer. Okay, so that's your beta amylase rest. You got to be there long enough to create fermentable sugars so that your beer gets dry enough for whatever, however dry you want it.
Speaker 2:The next range is going to be a little higher. That's alpha amylase rest, so that's going to be between like 158 and 161 degrees Fahrenheit, which is like 70 to 72 Celsius. This is where an alpha amylase enzyme will convert starches into complex sugars or unfermentable sugars. So basically, if you go this high, what you're going to have is a sweet beer by the end, because the yeast can't consume it it's unfermentable, right Whereas if you go lower in temperature, they create fermentable sugars. So you get drier beer. You have less sugar at the end.
Speaker 2:The next range is 75 Celsius, which is like 165 degrees or so Fahrenheit. That's called mash out or mash off. Okay, that's where you cut off enzymatic conversion. Basically, beta amylase survives between that 140 or so range, but it's really really active at about 149 Fahrenheit. Okay, it's active into the 150s, but it's completely denatured by 158. Okay, right into the 150s, but it's completely denatured by 158. Okay, right, alpha amylase is technically around around 150 152 degrees, um, really prominent at that 158 to 160 degrees, but once you get to 165 it's completely denatured. So 165 has denatured your enzymes. That's important because that's where you then lock in your fermentability, because now you have no enzymes that are converting starches. You've, you've, you've told it to stop, right.
Speaker 2:So when I say decoction to mash out, what I mean is you're going to mash in, you're going to go through a beta amylase rest, you're going to step that up after that to an alpha amylase rest. Then you're going to separate your mash boiled decoction, add it back. That's going to then raise that temperature to mash out. So decoction to mash out. Okay, so you're decoct to the mash out step. That's what that means. That can get you pretty fermentable, but that completely depends on how long you rested at beta amylase versus how long you rested alpha amylase, all sorts of sort of details there. That's the main one. You can also do a single decoction. That's, for example, called decoction for fermentability, so fermentability. So instead of decocting at the end, what you can do is decoct in the middle.
Speaker 2:And this is important because and a strange thing, and distillers will know this if they hear this is not every in distilleries, not every malt that you use, or grain that you use, whether it's rye or adjunct or corn or whatever, has the same gelatinization temperatures. This means that the, the, the actual starches, are not soluble. Yet you haven't broken down the actual ingredient so that you solubilized the starches and that you can now convert with enzymes, which means, for example, if you're doing corn, you gotta do like a cereal mash. You got to go up really high, you got to damn near boil this thing. If you're using grits in order to gelatinize it, then you have to bring the temperature back down to beta amylase, because beta amylase denatured at that temperature. But now the beta amylase can attack the starches that you've now unlocked and create fermentable sugars, right. So the temperature range is weird.
Speaker 2:The other interesting thing is beta amylase can only, like I mentioned, convert starches to fermentable sugars, but it can't break down these sort of long chain starches. Okay, now alpha. Can alpha cleaves some of these things into long chain sugars? Okay, once those are cleaved by alpha, beta can convert them into fermentable sugars. The problem is is, by the time you get to the ideal temperature, the optimal temperature for alpha, you've denatured your beta. So how are you going to make it more fermentable?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is where decoction might come in, okay, so what you can do is you can mash in your your mash total, right, whatever temperature you want. It could be protein rest or even lower in temperature if you wanted to, and what you can do then is to say it's protein, rest. So you're 122 degrees or something like that, in the low end. You can then, at that moment, after you mash and separate your decoction, you then take that decoction to beta amylase, rest you, rest there. You can then take it to alpha amylase, rest and rest there. So what you've done is you created fermentable sugars, but now you've created unfermentable sugars and you and you when recombine them, then you've got everything.
Speaker 1:Can kind of all come out in the wash.
Speaker 2:Exactly so once you boil it and add it back. Now you're at beta amylase rest again. You've come back down to beta amylase with enzymes that are active and optimal, that can not only convert sort of the starches that they already have in their mash, but now they can convert all the alpha cleave sugars that the decoction went through. Now you've decocted in the middle, but that's the coction for fermentability. Like you've done it to create a highly fermentable wort to get a drier, even drier beer. In the process of this you've also increased the flavor characteristics of your malt and your richness and your sort of texture by boiling some of that mash. At that point you can go simply step up to alf afterwards and then step up to mash out and now you have a highly fermentable single decoction right.
Speaker 2:So there's multiple ways of doing decoction and there are, frankly, way more than that. It gets pretty, it can get quite complicated. I find very, very cool and interesting. And it just gives you all these tools to make all sorts of different profiles. So a lot of our beers will have completely different decoction profiles. They're not all the same. If I say this is a single decoction, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the same single decoction as that beer or same double decoction as that beer. Oftentimes I'm building decoction profiles based strictly on what I want the fermentability profile to be for that brand and that particular beer and how I want it to ultimately taste and be consumed and be enjoyed, um, overall. So it's a pretty. It's a pretty, um, hands-on, powerful sort of tool I think you can use to create fermentability and flavor.
Speaker 1:How so, then, how many iterations of a beer do you go through before you decide this? Is what the finished product has to be.
Speaker 2:It depends on the beer. Uh, sometimes, sometimes it happens right away. Um, these days, most of the time it happens right away. That's just because of the the experience that we've had as a production team making these um and understanding them and and me as writing them, um, like understanding, based upon maybe the four iterations of that other one that we did with the same process, to now figure it out. Now I kind of don't have to go through four iterations again on the next one.
Speaker 2:Now, if I do go on iterations, usually it's maybe not because of the mash process. It might be a hop thing, it might be. I don't like how that hop expressed here. Maybe we change that hop varietal, we we move it here instead, or we do this instead. On this it could even be fermentation temperatures, or you know profiles, or how do we want to carbonate it? How do we want to? You know, like, how clear do we want it? How you know? How you know which is how we dial it in through the centrifuge. There's all sorts of other things involved with beer than just that. So I do find the mashing profile, though, is almost always pretty much spot on when we start.
Speaker 2:If it's a change based upon the mash. It's usually not the process of the mash. It can even be a change as in like. I'm going to use a different malt, Like a lot of my Pilsners and lagers these days have. It's all Pilsner malt, but it might be two or three different Pilsner malts and there's reasons why, and maybe only this malt is decocted and this one isn't. But they're both pilsner malts but they have characteristics that I'm creating. Yeah, so it can get. It allows for a lot of control versus just taking a bag of ireman pills and mashing in with 150 degree water and then adding some, you know, some holita, middle fruit and being like cool 34, 70. I have a pilsner, like it's a, which is fine. I've had, I made and had great beers that are like that. It just leaves for me when I'm drinking it. It leaves a lot to be desired and there's a lot more that can be brought to the experience, um, than just that.
Speaker 1:Okay, do you ever are there beers like I'm thinking of Paul Daniche and um postcard which are, are there beers where you can kind of show the consumer multiple expressions? I wasn't sure if that was one, but um, where does the consumer, how does the consumer get educated on this and the differences between?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I love talking about it, I love explaining it, I love educating. I don't think everybody necessarily wants to hear this shit.
Speaker 2:And so I totally get that the day. More importantly than educating anybody, is that all of the effort that we're putting in um to understand this and to get it as exact and controlled and perfect as possible every single time, and that dedication is actually what you're tasting At the end of the day. You know that if you order one from me and from green bench, like you, you know that I spent every waking moment trying to make it perfect and therefore you can at least trust that when you get it it's going to be really good, and that's really the only thing I hope to communicate. If we want to talk further details on it, then totally right. Postcard, and Polnice is a great example. Postcard, single decoction and mash out Two Play-Doh, final gravity, Gravity, you know, Augustine. Or yeast, a little bit warmer, you know, single decoction.
Speaker 2:Polynesia is a, a, a Czech style, traditional Czech style pale lager. Okay, Goes through three decoctions. Um, it's fermented with a Czech yeast. It's all malt from Moravia. It's Saaz hops from Bohemia. Um, I mean it's, it's a, it's poured differently, right, it's like all those characteristics themselves. While I might drink one and then drink the other and be like man, this is a great beer. Damn, this is also really great beer completely different profiles, completely different processes. They're supposed to taste very different, even though they're both pilsners. Quote unquote Right, Um, but I hope that really. All that translates is damn both those beers are good.
Speaker 1:That's a lot. It's distilled way down, yeah, okay, but that's. But that's the communications in the liquid agreed, not in the lecture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't. I don't think that everybody drinks beer to learn a lesson. You know, know, like, yeah, I don't, I don't always drink a beer to learn a lesson. I do that often Cause I my first experience with beer was kind of studying it on my phone, like I said earlier, right, I do enjoy that kind of process, um, but I think what's most important is that the beer is delicious. How I get there, I'd love to talk about that if you want to hear it, but if you don't want to hear it, just enjoy it.
Speaker 1:Well, and you can. You can win a lot of once once you can vouch for the quality and the glass you find. I find there's much more time for conversation about some of the technical or getting into it further, because if the beer is not good or that beer doesn't appeal to your palate, then the conversation's over before it starts.
Speaker 2:There, there's a, there's a lot there's. It's a real bummer when you hear a lecture and then you drink a beer and you're like this isn't that good. I like that. You put all that effort into it but it didn't turn out. And I've made that beer before. I've had like a long process and then it didn't come out as well as maybe I thought it would or wanted it to, or whatever. And that's a bummer, right. I'd rather you come to me after being like I keep, I come back here and I keep drinking this beer. Why is it so good? Why is this better than when I get a similar style somewhere else? Funny, you should ask. We go through a lot and you tell me how deep you want to get in this, but I'll explain to you how we got there. Um, I prefer that sort of process than the other way.
Speaker 1:Well and it's kind of. It's kind of like you pass your audition and then you get to the next level with the consumer. Because, as we all know, there's 900, 9,999 other breweries that are that are also making beers. Um, I could talk about loggers for a while longer, but it's fun, right yeah.
Speaker 1:Well and you get into the weeds. There's plenty of room to talk and continue, but I do want to chat a little bit about gosh, several topics, but I don't want to be here until the night falls. But I want to talk, I want to go to and I'm making a decision on the fly here, trying to kind of pick between the points.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, but I want to talk, but personally I want to talk about Sunshine City IPA, sure, and I want to talk, but personally I want to talk about Sunshine City IPA, sure, and I want to talk about the development of an IPA in a post-Highline world, because I've talked to Coppertail a little bit about this. And so how do you? Because Green Bench starts, cigar City is about four or five years in yeah, they're five years old at that time. And so how do you, as they're saturating the market with, I lie, which it's a phenomenal beer and we've cut our beer teeth on it but then how do you develop your trademark IPA in a world where hops are King at that point in history?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. Um, well, I would start by first saying, uh, at first we failed, you know, like the first beers we made. Uh, the first ones that I made was green bench IPA, which at that point every time that I'd made that beer it had been, I mean, it is a very highly it's our highest award-winning beer we've ever made. Still, and before I opened Green Bench, it was the beer that won me all sorts of medals and it was considered this incredible IPA.
Speaker 2:But now, once we got to the production side, it didn't quite hit the market's palette the way that I hoped it would, because it was really based off of sort of San Diego West Coast style IPA which I think as homebrew enthusiasts we loved, but I think as a market, frankly, they had been sort of not conditioned I guess condition's a good word sort of conditioned to enjoy. Maybe the profile of Highline, which I like a lot, which was a lot more fruity, had bitterness for sure, but it was also a little bit more high octane, a little bit more like um malt sort of profile to it. Um, arguably, I would say for the time use this term now a lot, but kind of juicy compared to like most West coast.
Speaker 1:IPA.
Speaker 2:And so I was trying to make something that inspired me, which was more like more like a Russian river sort of IPA, or even more specifically like a you know stone and you know, like all these like San Diego specific kind of IPAs and West coast California IPAs, um, and it was Simcoe heavy, you know, it was like Simcoe and Amarillo and it just didn't quite do what I had hoped it did at the time. Okay, and Amarillo, and it just didn't quite do what I had hoped it did at the time, okay. So what happened was is I went to Portland like two or three times in like one year Um, it was like the second year we were opened, I think and um, for collaborations and then CBC and other stuff, and I was drinking a bunch of the beers there and I I sort of fell in love with their profile because they reminded me they were similar to sort of what I liked about, sort of south cali, sort of ipa. But they were. They were still bitter, they were still dry, they weren't, but they had like a little bit more body, a little bit more sweetness to them. Okay, just a touch um, but their hop profile wasn't as like resinous and dank, it was more it was, and not just strictly citrus, it was more and not just strictly citrus, it was more tropical. Okay, and they were using, like you know, citra and Mosaic and you know like these hops that like were new kind of at the time and so I wrote that recipe on my phone on a flight back from Portland.
Speaker 2:I wrote Sunshine City IPA recipe. We came back the following Tuesday I think we brewed it. Recipe. We came back the following Tuesday I think we brewed it. And when that beer was done, about 17 days later, um, based upon the conversations that I had out there, it's double dry hops we do. It's a three pound per barrel dry hop, so it's still a lot of hops before double dry hopping was a thing for yeah before you say it was a thing.
Speaker 2:It was just a process that we did. We literally dry hop at one time at one pound per barrel, and then two days later we come back drop those hops out. We did then do two pounds per barrel, um, equal parts Citra Azaca, mosaic, and then that that's what that beer is. And we made it. And I remember having the first pint off the bright tank and I literally looked at Nate, uh, my business partner. I was like this is going to be like our biggest core brand, um, just drinking it right there. I was like this is this tastes like St Pete, this tastes like it's sunshine city.
Speaker 2:I didn't come up with that name. I was trying to come up with the name for a long time and actually my partner, kristen, came up with it. She was like, oh, call it sunshine city. And I was like, oh God, that is clearly the name. Like, how did I not? And so we did, and I I swear that beer tastes like sunshine, like it tastes like you're in St Pete, like it's it's and um, and it was very successful for us. It's still our number one seller. It's still growing. Um, you know it's. Yeah, Sunshine is sunshine is our number one seller. Postcards are number two now, uh, and we first made postcard and nobody wanted it, cause I think the market still didn't know about logger, really, yeah, and now it's our fastest growing brand, it's our number two seller. And bench life, our premium loggers, are number two fastest growing brand, but our number three overall. Um, yeah. And then skyway hazy double ipas are number four. Um, those are kind of our four core in cans. So, yeah, it's fun yeah, mullen.
Speaker 1:so then how? So you've got those IPAs and then you rotate Hazies? How have your IPAs changed since you're 11 now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're actually 12. Technically, we got our brewing license in early August of 2013. So we were a brewer then, so we just turned 12. Tasting room, no is September. 25th is when the tasting room opened. So it'll be 12 years on the 25th for the tasting room. So it's nuts, yeah, yeah, uh, anyway. Yeah, how IPA has evolved.
Speaker 2:Um, well, a lot more hazies. Um, we, we do make quite a bit of hazy IPAs. Um, to be honest with you, we actually make a lot. I say less. I say less. Than I look at the board I'm like oh no, there's a shitload of ipa still up there. Um, it feels like we make a lot less ipa than we used to. We don't? We still make more ipa than anything else. Um, I think it's less our focus when it comes to sort of um, new beers. We still, we still do it. I still release six different ipas a year at least. You know kind of thing? Um, I'd say new ones are generally more like pale ale, west coast pale ale kind of thing. Um, I'd say new ones are generally more like pale ale, west coast pale ale kind of stuff. We've been doing a lot more of those um in the last year, especially.
Speaker 2:Um, I find that our consumer consumer really likes lager man, like it's just and it's IPA is still King. I pay still over 50% of the craft beer sold, like that's not going to go anywhere. But I feel like the person that is sustaining ipa is the person that's already decided what they like and they're not. They're not as I want the new thing as much as they used to be. At least it seems that way as far as our, our consumer is involved. Yeah, they like having one, but then they go back to the standard. I sunshine city. You know, like I'll try that new ipa cool, oh, it's really good. I sunshine, and they'll drink two more sunshines and they leave, right, and so that's all well and good. But I find like the lager producer or the lager drinkers are the ones that are coming up and getting a different lager every single time. They come up to the, you know to the bar, which is really cool, and then they'll get a picture of bench life, you know, and crush that Um but that's there's.
Speaker 1:So as an industry that kind of built ourselves on variety and rotation. That's fascinating to think that now the guy who was the guy who was like brown ale, red, you know, ipa, double IPA, triple IPA, barley wine, is now like lager one, lager two, lager three, lager four.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't, I don't think that it. I think that process is still there, but I do think what they drink has changed. Okay, you know, like I, I think, yeah, I think again, ipa is still king. People come in and say what's your hazy? You know, like that's the question. You get Like yeah, and we'll say we've got four.
Speaker 2:You know it's like all right, what's the difference? We kind of go through the differences. All right, I'll take that one. You know they generally stick with that one once they have that one. You know like they're they're not as like what's your new IPA? What's your new IPA? You know like, um, they want to know what your West coast is, what your hazy is, what your double is. That's kind of the question you get Not as much. Like you know, I want to try all of your hazies, I want to try all of your whatever you know. So I feel like the the question is a little different for IPA drinkers than it used to be, at least here. I mean, I'm sure that's different elsewhere, whether it be local or somewhere else, but that seems to be the change.
Speaker 2:Now I say as a producer we're still playing around with stuff, we're still changing things, we're playing with a lot of the advanced hot products. We're playing with different oils and Hyperboosts and Dynaboosts and incognitos and all the cool stuff and the fun stuff. So we're having a lot of fun. Still with IPA. I kind of miss IPA as far as producing it, and I say that as a person who loves making these lagers. But the real reason is the residency time. I like the fact that I can make a beer and two weeks later I get to taste, taste it and make a change versus like I made it. And you know I'm not going to chase this thing for like 10 weeks, like that sucks.
Speaker 1:Good thing you didn't get into bourbon. Oh yeah, Seriously. No, that's a really good point.
Speaker 2:I say that and I you know, have these two, three, four year old barrel aged beers right behind us too.
Speaker 1:So but that's. But that's okay, Cause that's because, then you get to run the gamut, which brings me to kind of wrapping up. What do you think? What is exciting to you right now in the world speaking of IPA, in the world of hops, are there products that you're excited, that are really showing promise? Are there hops? Are there new hops that are really showing promise? Do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, honestly, I think the hop game has been one of the most exciting parts of of beer um for a long time now, and it's just it's so there's always something new. I think, as a process person, that I consider myself kind of more of a technical brewer. Okay, I would say, like some of these advanced hot products and like how you should use them is kind of fascinates me. You know, like, should I add this uh variety specific hop oil in with my first dry hop, with my second dry hop in the bright tank? Uh, should it go in? Should I do a hop dip with it? Should I? You know, like there's all these different ways of incorporating it. So I find those right now to be the most exciting thing in the hop world for me personally.
Speaker 2:Um, variety specific. There's plenty of great stuff out there. I mean, crush is such a good hop right now, like it's such a such a, such a cool hop. Um, I don't use it often just because I'm still trying to work through all these contracts I'm overcontracted on. So I'm like I got to stick with Citroen Um, and so once I, once I get out of that hole, then I'll get back to of you know, the business, uh, so yeah, when did we ever think man remember remember right about the time you guys were starting?
Speaker 1:it was the middle of a hop shortage. Yeah, I was screwed.
Speaker 2:I hated it. I could. I was trying all these experimental hops and they. That was part of the reason I think our IPAs didn't turn out the way I liked for such a long time was because I couldn't get my hands on the hops that I needed Like. Actually I say it was the same beer that I made before. It really wasn't. It was the same concept of that beer, but it was different hops that I was. They were all had numbers on them. They didn't have names yet and I was just trying different hops every time and they never quite had. They didn't really taste like Simcoe and Citra, you know, like an Amarillo. They didn't really taste like that. But I was trying and now I have contracts and now I got too many of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, what an interesting problem to have. Yeah, how do you balance tradition and innovation, especially in the world of lager, in the world of IPA? You know, the world of San Diego IPAs is still a thing, but now we've gone to the other coast, in New York. How do you find inspiration in tradition versus innovation, or is one more exciting than the other?
Speaker 2:It's a great question, I would say I, ironically, find tradition to be quite innovative. Ironically, I find myself coming across very traditional processes and techniques that maybe weren't taught to me, that maybe even the people that taught me didn't know about, and and then being like, oh shit, they knew it all along, like you know, I mean, let's do that. And then, oh, that did work, you know like, and it seems like such an innovative process because it's not one I came across, but it turns out to be a very traditional process. So I find that to be like the decoction thing, like the like the stuff I'm doing is not new, it's just very new to me and a lot of us that make beer. They're just, they're just techniques that were sort of lost because we didn't necessarily we got to a point we didn't need it anymore, you know. And so you go back to it and you say like, whoa, there's a lot of control here, a lot more you can do with this, okay. So I, I would, I would say that I mean, I think, um, think, um, innovation, um, I would, I would argue quality over innovation, quality over everything else, um, and so I guess, I guess, I kind of I consider us probably more traditional than innovative as a brewer when it comes to, you know, the loggers that we're making everything here in this room and Web City Cellar, like this is far more traditional, I think, than innovative. But I find that to be very innovative because nobody's doing it, you know, because it is unique, because it's niche, because it's not something that most people understand, because they don't do it anymore. Like, most brewers have no idea how to do what we do over here. Sure, not because they can't, just because they don't, they don't do it, you know, like they weren't taught how to do it. They'd ever had the experience and learned, and so a lot of people kind of can maybe consider webs to be somewhat innovative.
Speaker 2:Um, I also look at things like hospitality, like just the front of house scene. I mean, when we opened green bench, people were like this is the nicest tasting I've ever seen. You remember that, right, everyone's like nobody put that much care and effort, at least locally, into making a place feel and look the way we did. Right, and I think we took that another step when we we made webs. You know, like, um, what now, five and a half years ago, when we opened webs?
Speaker 2:And so, like, I find our innovation is sort of about the holistic experience. It's like we're innovative in that we try to create a place for everyone and we try to create an inclusive environment. We try to create like service that you're not going to get anywhere else, um, as well as making sure that our products go through like very rigorous and intense care and process and control beforehand. Um, you know, I think that's really the key. You know, web city seller in depth. You know, think that's really the key. You know web city seller in in depth. You know we had a james beard nomination last year. You know, it's just like, like that is pretty crazy.
Speaker 1:yeah, that's pretty affirming of all of the things that you have been talking about. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome and I, your your sour wild program is a whole nother. I mean I would, let's do another one. I was gonna say I'd like to come back and do another episode on it because there's such a backstory here, sure and you know, aside from putting out a two-hour podcast, which you know is fine, but it's a lot, it's a lot. Yeah, and that's a long car ride to listen to it for.
Speaker 1:But I do want to wrap up, but I usually end with six quick questions, oh, okay. So the first question is what is your current favorite beer?
Speaker 2:Oh well, does it have to be mine? Nope, Can it be mine? Yes, ok. Well, the beer that I'm drinking the most right now is probably pale lager beer. It's our Hellas. Ok, my favorite beer is Augustine or Hellas, and that's kind of based off that.
Speaker 1:So it's like that's why, yeah, yeah, I love it. Okay, if you could only brew one style, what would it be? And assume that you're going to be drinking it.
Speaker 2:Oh, you know what Probably like table Saison Okay.
Speaker 1:Yes, we haven't even talked about Saison.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's. That's part two, that's web stuff.
Speaker 1:There you go yeah.
Speaker 2:What's the had that changed your mind?
Speaker 1:Changed my mind. Oh, the example I always use is Duchess de Bourgogne, where I had that and it was balsamic vinegar, but I liked it for some reason and that really was a gateway sour for me.
Speaker 2:Man, that is a very tough question. I'll okay, I'll say I changed my mind. So I often have beers that I don't necessarily know if the, if the sort of concept has changed my mind, but I will say that make me the sort of really inspire me and be like whoa, I need to learn more about this. Maybe I didn't think about this as a thing. Um, I was in, uh, you say Duchess. Ironically too, I was in um Atlanta, in uh, april at Brickster Pub and we had an event there. It was us and another brewery called Duchess Ales, um out of New York, and um, they make a lot of English beers but they make other stuff too.
Speaker 2:And the brewer um, really, really awesome guy. I had a lot of fun with him. He brought me his Pilsner. So apparently he did some research, his family's like from like the Swiss Alps, um, and so he traveled there to kind of see the area or whatever, and came across these breweries that were like in the mountains and stuff in the Swiss Alps and they had these Pilsners and he's like they were so good, they're so floral.
Speaker 2:It turns out Fermentis has a yeast strain that actually is from one of those breweries and so it's a yeast strain he used and I was like this beer is so good. It was different. It was like it's German pills but adjacent right, it's like not exactly the same as the other ones, and I was like I did not know these things existed and I want to explore more of these, like heavy floral pilsners, um, and so I have a beer on tap called Swiss pills and it's a hundred percent based off that experience that I had with him. Um, and so I'd say that was the most recent one that just sort of hit me Like I just didn't know, you know, until I had that, and so I that's pretty fun.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay. Next, when it comes to beer, what do you wish? You really understood.
Speaker 2:When it comes to beer man, how to make money. Okay, yeah, I mean I think I mean I just want to know everything. You know, like I, just I. That's what I love about this I fell in love with it originally was because I want, I wanted to learn for the rest of my life and I knew this is an avenue to do that, and so I kind of want to know it all.
Speaker 1:Okay, yes, finally, what's the greatest lesson you've learned in beer?
Speaker 2:yes, finally, what's the greatest lesson you've learned in beer?
Speaker 2:The greatest lesson I've learned in beer, oh, the other greatest lesson is that, like beer, beer only get, I mean it's, I mean it's a life lesson ultimately. That I learned really through this, as I knew it kind of beforehand, but it definitely came through with beer. This industry is so much better with the, with more people in it, with a more diverse crowd, with an inclusive group of ideas, of histories, of influences, of characters, of. I mean it's just a better place as a whole, like, it's better for everybody, right, like you, eventually you're in an echo chamber, usually if you just keep the same people around, and the moment you start diversifying all aspects of this industry, the moment it gets more fun, it gets more innovative, it gets more unique, it, it, it. You learn so much more, so much more quickly. Um, and so I think that's a lesson that was sort of solidified and beer for me that just in every aspect of life, the more inclusive it is, just the better the environment is for everybody and the products, like the products get better. Sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, Chris. Thank you very much. It's been a wonderful interview and I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thanks, mark. It's fun. That was my conversation with Chris Johnson of Green Bench Brewing Company. My thanks to Chris and all the team at Green Bench for their hospitality and taking the time to speak on all of these subjects. Thank you again to Copper Tail Brewing for their sponsorship. Copper Tail Brewing has been making Florida-inspired and Tampa-brewed beer since 2014. Enjoy a free dive IPA, unholy triple cloud dweller hazy IPA or night swim porter in their tasting room across from Ikea just outside Ybor City. Thank you also to Barrel Aged Media and Events. Barrel Aged Media and Events hosts beer tours, curated tastings and beer events throughout the Tampa Bay area Corporate retreats, in-home tastings with friends or a special beer day party. Visit BarrelAgedMediacom for more information.
Speaker 1:Are there any guests you'd like to hear on the show? Reach out to me. I'm on social media at flbeernews or mark at floridabeernewscom and let me know what's going on in your world. Beerwise. Please remember to like, subscribe and follow BeerWise on your favorite podcast platform so you don't miss an episode and we have a chance to grow and reach new audiences. Also, please remember to review the show on your favorite podcast platform. It really does help. Florida beer news and this podcast are on Patreon. I have been establishing fundraising efforts for the website and podcast, looking to make some updates. Check out patreoncom slash Florida beer news spelled out for more information on how you and your business can help fuel our growth and get some cool rewards. That's all for now, until next time, and we'll be back to talk about what's going on in the world. Beer-wise Cheers you.
