BeerWise Podcast

Ep. 51: The Brick Store's Neil Callaghan On Curating A Modern Beer Program

• Mark DeNote / Neil Callaghan • Season 5 • Episode 51

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Ever wonder how a beer bar becomes a destination instead of a museum? We sit with Brick Store Pub’s beer director, Neil Callaghan, to unpack how a 30-year institution stays fresh while honoring tradition. Neil traces his path from touring musician to Cigar City translator-in-chief to the person shaping one of the most respected tap lists in the country—and he shares the systems, stories, and stubborn standards that keep the program humming.

We dig into Georgia’s once-strict laws that banned taproom pints until 2017 and how that forged a uniquely strong beer-bar culture. Neil explains why brewery retail didn’t kill bars, how collaboration beats competition, and what happens to “rare beer” hype when lines vanish. From there, we get tactical: how to balance Belgian classics, cask ale, and lager with hazy double IPAs and pastry stouts; where he draws the line on smoothie-adjacent novelties; and why quality matters more than hype, even when the Venn diagram occasionally overlaps.

The conversation hits surprising notes. Belgian beer is surging at Brick Store thanks to authenticity, glassware, and value. Mixed culture ales remain a hard sell until they’re sampled, then they shine. Barleywine deserves your attention and your patience. Pumpkin beer can be excellent when it tastes like beer first. And non-alcoholic options like Guinness Zero can fool your senses in the best way. Through it all, Neil’s Advanced Cicerone lens helps decode draft systems, fermentation nuance, and food pairing without losing the simple test that matters: does it taste good?

If you’re curious about curation, beer-list strategy, and what truly resonates with new 21+ drinkers, this one’s packed with practical takeaways and fresh perspective. Follow and share the show, leave a review to help others find us, and tell us: which style deserves a comeback on your local tap list?

SPEAKER_01:

Hello and welcome back to the Beerwise Podcast. This is the podcast that looks at what's going on in the world of Beerwise. Hello and welcome to the Beerwise Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Denote, and I'm the editor of Florida Beer News. This episode, I'm joined by Neil Callahan, the beer director from the amazing Brickstore pub in Decatur, Georgia. I was fortunate enough to get to know Neil when he was involved with Cigar City Brewing in Tampa, running their tasting room and promoting the brewery whenever they would add new territories. Neil was and is a legendary character, whether he is behind the scenes or in front of a crowd. When Neil departed Cigar City for the brickstore, it was a huge loss for Tampa, but he is still working on spreading the good word about good beer everywhere he goes, including the Brickstore's Cask Bar, Belgian Room, Cellar, and Daily Beer Service. But before we go to the interview, I'd like to thank Coppertail Brewing for their sponsorship. Coppertail Brewing has been making Florida-inspired and Tampa brewed beer since 2014. Enjoy a free dive IPA, Unholy Triple, Cloud Dweller Hazy IPA, or Night Swim Porter and Distribution throughout Florida. Thank you also to Barrel Aged Media and Events. Barrel Aged Media and Events hosts beer tours, curated tastings, and other beer events wherever beer can be enjoyed. From in-home tastings with friends to a special beer day party or even a corporate retreat or dinner, visit Barrelaged Media.com for more information on how we can add more to your next event with Kraft Beer. And now here's my conversation with Neil Callahan of the Brickstore Pub. Neil, thank you so much for hosting me here at the Brickstore. I am uh I haven't been here in a long time, so it's good to see you. It's good to see that it's good to see place kind of cat carrying the torch forward. Good good craft beer and quality service.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, we're trying. Well, thank you for saying so, Mark.

SPEAKER_01:

All right. I want to talk to you a little bit, start off about your beer backstory and how you how you kind of found your way into craft beer and then ultimately here to the brick store.

SPEAKER_00:

Sure, yeah. Well, I spent most of my 20s uh playing music and touring in bands, which was great. It's a good good way to see the world and um got a lot of really cool experiences doing that. And was into beer, but wasn't really passionate about it, never went beyond sort of, you know, I like this brewery or I like this beer. And this is maybe 2006, 2007 at this point. Um craft beer was gaining traction in New York. At the time I was living in New York. Okay. Um, but there weren't a ton of breweries. Uh I was bartending at a dive bar in between tours, and the owner of the dive bar liked beer. So I remember we had Blue Point, Rastafari was a permanent line. Um, what else? There was a brewer brewery on Long Island called Long Ireland. Okay. They had like an Irish red, but the job was cracking Bud Lights and Miller lights for sure. But one of my best friends uh that I met through music at the time was the buyer at the Whole Foods on the Bowery. Okay. And New York City really didn't have a whole lot of craft beer going on in 2006-2007. Um, I, you know, a specialty bottle shop just didn't exist. Okay. So the Whole Foods on the Bowery had easily the best package selection in Manhattan. And my buddy Corey was doing the buying. So he was the first one that gave me Orval. He was the first one that gave me St. Bernardus AP 12. Um, so got kind of into beer and excited about Belgian beer through Corey. Moved to Athens, Georgia in 2010 to play in a band, and happened to walk into this place Trapeze, which at the time I think was, I think Beer Advocate had it as the number 11 beer bar in the world at that point, which was pretty cool. And I didn't, you know, I just knew they had cool beer. That wasn't why you chose it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And the the funniest thing of walking into that place is I ended up there um to buy myself a celebratory beer because I thought I had just gotten a job as the produce manager at a supermarket. So I was just, I wasn't there to try to find a job. I was there. Basically, they didn't offer me the job, but they said, Oh, yeah, we think you're the guy. So I was like, Oh great, I'm gonna buy myself a fancy beer. Started talking with the guy behind the bar, and I was there maybe three hours. And um, after just talking beer with him for three hours, he goes, Yeah, you you know your stuff. And I said, Well, you know, I'm actually looking looking for a bartending job as well, because I'd much rather bartend than be a produce guy. And um the guy's name was Eric Johnson, so he hired me on the spot. And so 2010, working at the bar at Trapeze in Athens, that was kind of my I'd say my first real beer job.

SPEAKER_01:

And that was quite a beer job, I'm sure that would have been because they were, I mean, pretty cutting edge. I mean, cut as cutting edge as you are in the southeast, but I mean they were they were having some very very nice lines and and get introducing some very cool beers from all over the country where they could get.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, exactly. And Georgia specifically in relation to beer bars was a really um it was a different environment than almost any other place in the country because we until 2017, Georgia had zero direct and consumer sales at a brewery. So until 2017, you couldn't walk into a brewery and order a pint of beer. You couldn't get a six-pack to go, you couldn't get a keg to go. All of that was completely illegal. The only way to walk into a brewery and actually get any beer was I'm doing quote fingers here, was through a tour. And you could only offer tours for like three hours, whatever it was, three or four days a week. So you could buy a pint glass with up to 24 ounces of samples in that pint glass, never more than six ounces at a time. That was the only way the brewery could earn revenue from direct-to-consumer. So, other than that, this you know, I'm kind of on a tangent here, but if you opened a brewery until 2017, you literally had one customer, and that was your wholesaler. No, no direct-to-consumer sales and no self-distribution in the state of Georgia. So that was wild. But I bring it up to say Trapbees had a great reputation, the brickstore had a great reputation, the Porter had a great reputation because if you were getting into beer in 2010, 2011, you went to the beer bar. You couldn't go to a cigar city and try 10 different styles of beer. You literally couldn't walk into a brewery and try any styles of beer. So, because of that, Georgia always had this really cool, really vibrant uh craft beer bar scene in a way that Florida never had. Yeah, you know, in a way that Alabama really, you know. Well, there was Jay Clyde in Alabama for a little while, but um we're we were very fortunate from a beer bar standpoint in the state of Georgia. But for brewery owners, it was it was a pretty shit deal.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. And then that changes that changes 2017. I I mean, again, staying on that tangent because I'm just so cute, I'm very curious. Does that change the relationship of beer bars and breweries when breweries can't because there's always this kind of you can't compete with your you don't want to compete with bars directly because they're a good customer of yours, but then you the opportunity for package sales at your brewery is so it offers such a you such a strong profit margin.

SPEAKER_00:

So does that change the the relationship? Yeah, I would say so. I'd say it's a little more cooperative um in Georgia than it is in some other places, but even in Florida, you know. When I worked at Cigar City, the funniest thing to me was our when I started in 2014, our biggest on-premise account was the brick house around the corner. And our biggest off-premise account was the total wine around the corner. So, you know, and the BA has done some really great research on this, that it really having a brewery rise or brings up the level of sales, even for that brewery, at on and off-premise retailers next to the brewery. So it's really kind of rising tide carries all ships. And the BA again has done a lot of research and put some numbers together on that.

SPEAKER_01:

That makes that makes sense because you can't, if the brewery's closed, that's the next logical spot. Well, shoot. Yeah, it's moving over there. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. And you know, not naming names or calling anybody out, but certain breweries took a very antagonistic approach. Uh I'm sorry, vice versa. Some retailers took a very antagonistic approach when all of a sudden the brewery next door is now a retailer that they they were looking at as a competitor, and the reality is it helps everybody. Right. Um, but what are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then so then how did you find yourself at Brickstore to finish that story?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure, yeah. So I was at Trapeeves from 2010 to 2013. Athens is such a great town, it's a blast, but it's a small college town and it started to feel a little small. So thought I had a job lined up with a brewery, uh, moved to Atlanta. This is another very coincidental. I thought I had a job and then ended up with a different one. Um, moved to Atlanta, and in the process of moving, basically I found out the brewery wasn't gonna hire me. So I sat down at the bar downstairs, right where you walked by. And Dave, the owner who you just met, had he and I had met at Trappies a couple times. So he saw me, he goes, Oh, I know you. What are you doing here? I said, Well, you know, just moved. I'm looking for a job, and he threw an application at me. He just goes, just write your phone number and something funny on it. Okay. So I worked at the brickstore from 2013 to 2014 and had no intention of leaving the brickstore. Loved Atlanta, loved working here. So it's a really we'll we'll dive into the brick store in a little bit, but it's it's really a truly special place. Um, and I would not have left if the opportunity hadn't presented itself at Cigar City. So guy named Chris Lovett through Charlie Mears, and Charlie, I've known Charlie for years and years. He was uh running a place called Five Points Bottle Shop in Athens when I was living in Athens. So he he was running the off-premise place, I was running the on-premise place. Gotcha. Um, and Charlie put this guy, Chris Lovett, in touch with me. Charlie said, Oh, I think Neil would be a great tap room manager there. So I took the tap room manager job at Cigar City in 2014 and sort of weasel my way from tap room to brand ambassador to brand manager to kind of a position that touched a lot of different departments in Cigar City. It was uh dealing with the production guys, sort of making what they do make sense to the sales guys. We have some really talented brewers, and um, you know, Wayne at the time was just he's a brilliant guy, translating some of the more technical and esoteric things that Wayne was trying to do into something that I knew the sales guys would be able to make use of. Absolutely. Um, love Wayne, but he's gonna get you in the weeds about tetrahydropyridine and things like that, and the sales guys are just looking at him with glazed over eyes. So my position for a while was sort of helping Wayne and Sean and some of the other brewers take their technical and sort of the the back of house stuff makes sense for the front of house. Okay. Um, so I was at Cigar City until 2022, and um, same thing, it just sort of decided it was time for a change of scenery, time to move on, and um happened at the end of 2021, was up here for a race. I was a runner, so did a race up here and said, Oh, I'm gonna go say hi to the brick store guys. And again, very serendipitously, Dave was working here in 2021. He was just kind of working on some stuff around the pub. And I walked in and he said, Holy shit, we were just talking about you. It's yeah, what what did I do now? So, well, Dan, the guy who's running the beer program at the brick store, just put his notice in and we said, Oh, wouldn't it be great if Neil wanted to come back? But uh he's you know, he's down to Florida, he's never gonna want to come back. And I said, Well, you know, it's actually I think it might be time for a change of scenery. So I've been back at the brick store since early 2022. Okay. So kind of bouncing around a lot.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. Sure. And then what so in charge of the beer program, what does that entail?

SPEAKER_00:

The title is Beer Director. Okay. So I do all of the beer buying. Okay. I do all of the draft system maintenance, I do all the staff training, I do all of the kind of coordinating with breweries on bringing in events and special beers and that sort of thing. A lot of traveling, a lot of, you know, it was just up in DC for Snally Gaster for the beer festival up there. So it's just sort of being um the representative for the brick store at outside of the walls here when it comes to to beer. But other, but really my nine to five is moving kegs, ordering beer, inventory, pricing, things like that. Um, but it's it's pretty neat. I get to build a beer program that I want to see. It's pretty neat.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's and and that's one of the most unique things. So you don't have mandates per se. You don't have dedicated lines the same way that say, well, I won't name names, but a corporate bar or corporate-owned chain would.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that that's correct. Um, no mandates, it's just me. There are a few lines that we've had permanently for a number of years, stuff like St. Bernardus AB 12. We're not taking that beer off. Um, our sort of house yellow beer is a culch from Halfway Crooks, which is uh really great lager brewery down the road. Okay. Um so those beers essentially don't change. And the that being said, if I decided tomorrow, yeah, you know what, let's switch it up for something, I I I really don't have to worry about approval from anybody, sure. Which is great. So I have a great level of autonomy.

SPEAKER_01:

That's that's very unusual in the modern beer industry. Um let me I want to talk a little bit too about your advanced Cicerone and how that um how that's kind of what that has been to you in the beer industry. Um you went for advanced Cicerone when you were with Cigar City, if I remember right, and then how has that served you, helped you since you got that certification?

SPEAKER_00:

It's really made me a more well-rounded professional in the beer industry. There's a lot of things that whether it's because you're personally, personally interested or passionate about, or whether it's because more of your nine to five is getting your hands dirty with whatever it is, beer styles or draft systems or food and beer pairing, whatever it is, um, that you can spend a little more time focusing on those things. But in order to earn these certifications, any certification with the Cicerone program, you really have to be very well-rounded. You have to know a lot about draft systems and a lot about food and beer pairing and a lot about raw materials and ingredients and that sort of thing. So I think that's the strongest argument for the Cicerone program, is you become a much more well-rounded and sort of um, you have a lot more tools in your tool belt when you earn these certifications, which is great. Um, same thing when it comes to styles, you know, it's really easy to overlook certain styles, but if you want to pass any level of Cicerone certification, I can't stand Hefeweizen, but I've got to know a lot about Hefeweizen. So I can tell you a lot about that style, even though it's the last thing I ever want to drink.

SPEAKER_01:

That's that's interesting. And so does that do you find you do you find you use that on a daily basis? Do you find you use that, does that help you with customers or or the back of the house piece more or less?

SPEAKER_00:

All of it. I think if you're running a retail program like we do at the brickstore, you're running a bottle shop, that sort of thing. I that's really seems to be what the program is designed for. If you are uh director of operations or director of brewing at a brewery, it is absolutely going to help you, but you're gonna end up with a lot of um information that's not necessarily practical to your day-to-day. Sure. Um so it's not, and I think the Cicero folks would be the first to say that. This isn't a you're not gonna become the best brewer in the world if you're a master cicerone. If you're a master cicerone, you're going to know an awful lot about brewing, but you're also gonna know an awful lot about beer history and beer styles. You're gonna know an awful lot about again draft systems and food and beer pairing and that sort of thing. Okay. Um, so that program to me really it's kind of tailor-made for a position like the one that I'm currently in.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Okay. So then talking more about that position that you're currently in, um, you have the chance in your position to try a lot of experimental beers and curate tap lists. Um, what do you think right now is maybe a style or a tradition that is under under represent underrepresented or underestimated in the beer world?

SPEAKER_00:

It depends how you define underestimated or underappreciated. Um from a I think these beers are great and people just don't give them the love. There's stuff like Roush beer, you know, stuff like barley wines come to mind immediately. Um but what if the question is what is underappreciated, or if the question is what should be selling more, like what is basically what what's something that guests just don't latch onto the way that they should in order for for that to precipitate sales. I think that's kind of a different question.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. I'm I'm thinking more along the lines of beers that aren't beers that require a certain level of try this before a guest isn't going to immediately look and say, I want Abbott's 12. Or are they? Or does it take a few like when I I remember getting into beer where that wasn't the first beer I'd reach for, but then once I appreciated Belgian beer and learned a thing or two, then I I I thought of it as a thing of beauty. And so there's a certain level of education as well as you know, steps down on the path before you get to a certain style. But once you do, that's it. And that's my standing order. Are there are there beers like that where once you get them into people's hands and they try them, they're like, yes, that you don't necessarily start with?

SPEAKER_00:

I think Belgian beer is a good answer to that, but I think mixed culture beer in general. Okay. We have some lovely, lovely mixed culture beer on draft right now. We get some incredibly rare mixed culture stuff. Um, and it just doesn't move the way that I think it should, which is unfortunate. To your point, it's just you're you're looking at it on a menu and it says mixed culture ale. And we have tasting notes and we sort of explain kind of all the nuance and all the interesting qualities to this beer, but um, it's still a tough sell. But when you put a sample in someone's hand, they go, wow, like we've got a um mixed culture Hefeweitzen from Schilling up in North in uh New Hampshire right now. If you want it to be a mixed culture beer, like if you want it to be kind of funky and tart and earthy, it's not the beer for you. If you want it to be a Hefeweizen, it's not the beer for you. So it exists in this weird liminal space. Okay. But when I put a sample in for in a guest's hand, they go, Wow, this is incredible. It's got this like elderberry quality and this dried flour quality, and there's a little acidity, but there's a little bit of kind of earthiness, and it's it's just such a lovely, lovely beer. But it's by nature of what it is, uh it's tough for it to stand out on the menu.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's that's kind of what I'm talking about. The the the beers that exist in that kind of nexus space between between styles, and it's just this this you have to taste it to appreciate it. And there's I think there are uh uh in my experiences, there are a lot of those that just not that they're gate kept, but just in the sense of you can't describe it on a menu to the point where someone goes, I have to have that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And you know, we're also in a very precarious place kind of uh economically, and you know, not to say anything about everything else going on in the world, but economically, the reality, these mixed culture beers, they take years and years to make. True. They're sitting in a barrel for years and years. So I have to charge nine, ten, eleven dollars for a ten ounce pour. And that's a tougher sell when there's a seven dollar IPA and somebody goes, I know what an IPA is, it's seven bucks. I'm gonna have that instead of I don't really know what mixed culture means. And I it says Britannum, I don't know what that is, and oh, it's and it's you know, almost the price of a glass of wine. I'll have the IPA. Sure.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure, and a lot of three a lot of uh three dollar words that are in there that are that don't necessarily resonate with the drinker. Well, and and you have to get into the Latin to describe whenever you have to reference, you know, a language that isn't that's dead, really you yeah, it's a hard, it's a hard sell. Um are there any styles of beer that you feel like you have to wave the flag for? And I'm kind of looking at the mural behind us of of the abbot, but um, are there beer styles that you have to carry the flag for because they uh they are dying off otherwise or that they're not forgotten?

SPEAKER_00:

Um that's a tough question. When it, you know, your reference to AB 12 and Belgian stuff. The reality is, and we were talking about this earlier, we're very fortunate and we we work hard. So there's a little bit of luck, but we also we put a lot of effort into growing our beer program and getting more people excited about beer, and it's you know, it's the heart and soul of what we do here. Sure. Um, so we're lucky enough that we are selling more beer than we ever have, which is not something a lot of folks can say, right? Which is wonderful. Right. Um, if it's a single-digit number, kind of overall, Belgian draft beer is up like in the 30s and 40 percent year over year. People are really latching on to Belgian beer. So I'm thrilled that we're not in a position where I have to say, ah, you know, Belgian beer gets overlooked and it doesn't get its come up. It absolutely based on sales right now, it absolutely does. Wow. Um, that being said, I wouldn't necessarily want to open up a Belgian style brewery in the US.

SPEAKER_01:

Sure.

SPEAKER_00:

But I think other than them being absolutely delicious beers, there's an authenticity to those beers when you can say, yeah, it's Verhag, uh, De Chester Bourgon. That beer has been brewed this way for hundreds of years, and it's still family owned, and it's whatever it is, fourth or fifth generation owned, um, and it's in its own branded glass. Like that, that's an authenticity that you don't get in America for obvious reasons. Sure. Um, so I think people latch on to that. I think the glassware for Belgian beer definitely helps. There's a to go back to the economics, there's a bang for your buck quality. St. Bernardus AB 12, it's a 10.2% beer that you're gonna get for you know 10 bucks, 11 bucks. Um that being said, I I still haven't cracked the code as to why Belgian beer is cranking the way that it is, but I I love it. Um I'm over the moon about it. Yeah. Um, so maybe three years ago my answer would have been Belgian beer, but thankfully it's not at this point. Barley wines, probably. Yeah. Barley wines don't really, you know, I really have to get on the staff and remind them, hey, this is an excellent, excellent barley wine that we have. And stuff like showing you the seller earlier, we have 21 and 22-year-old Thomas Hardy's for a very, very reasonable price. So you can get a beer that's older than you know, some of the kids that work here for a very, very reasonable price. It's just the barley wine style gets doesn't get the love that I think it deserves. Um, mixed culture stuff again, I think. Yeah, because some of those beers are so nuanced and interesting, and they represent a time and a place and a specific barrel and a specific sort of you know, set of circumstances. Like you can't recreate those beers, and you also can't, as a as a brewer, they can't say, wow, you know what? This one mixed culture beer was selling really well. Let's brew another batch and we'll have it out in three weeks. It's just it's impossible. It's once it's gone, it's gone.

SPEAKER_01:

And time is that time is that kind of unaccounted for ingredient that costs money, yet you can't do it without it. You can't make mixed culture or mixed firm beers without the appropriate amount of time.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's exactly right. And then one other one that I always wait wave the flag for, and I am absolutely there's no shame or abashedness in this. I love pumpkin beer. So we have one or two pumpkin beers on now. We'll probably have three or four by the end of October. Okay. I think pumpkin beer is delicious.

SPEAKER_01:

Do you do you do you run into the issue where the expiration date for pumpkin beer in people's minds is always Thanksgiving?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, yeah, absolutely a thousand percent. A thousand percent.

SPEAKER_01:

So do you they all get polls?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh yeah. Okay. Oh yeah. Okay. Um we took about half of the draft of Brooklyn Post Road pumpkin ale that came to the state of Georgia. We took about half of it. And it's cranking. You know, we were lucky enough to get some Cigar City uh good gourd. That's selling great. Um, I think pumpkin beer is delicious. I don't care what anybody says. Okay. And I think it there's some bad ones, sure. And there's some ones that rely too heavily on adjuncts and spice and this and that, but the ones that actually taste like beer, like Brooklyn Post Road and like Good Gourd, good gourd tastes like beer. Yes. Um, I think those beers don't get the uh the seriousness that I think they deserve. Because it's there's nothing unserious about pumpkin beer.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, uh yes, yes, and I think that uh pumpkin beer is an in it's always an interesting uh discussion because how adjuncty is too adjuncty, because really they're all adjuncty, but then there are baselines and then there are extremes. And and and there's it's it's interesting to see who dances upon which line and uses what in order to carry the flavor forward. So I I wouldn't disagree with you. I would it's always funny in a weird way who decides that that's the hill they're gonna die on, is that pumpkin beer is or is not amazing, or it's it's it's almost as divisive as I've found coffee beer to be. Interesting. People will die on that hill of you do not just you do not mix those two beverages. Right. And sometimes you can convince, but sometimes that's just that's the hill that people decide they're gonna die on. Yeah, that's that's reasonable.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm I'm I'm very I'm on the pro pumpkin beer side of the hill.

SPEAKER_01:

That is not the conversation I thought we were gonna have today, but I'm I'm here for it. Yeah, that's really interesting. Um do you uh in where you are? Um I'm always interested to talk about rare beer culture and growing up growing up beer wise in an environment that where truck chasing was real and where we waited in line for those rare, cool, fun beers. Is that do you find that that is anywhere anymore? Does that is that somewhere with the brick store where people will wait for a certain beer to come on or chase a certain beer?

SPEAKER_00:

And at the at the brick store, the answer is generally no. Um, it's different in other parts of the country and other parts of the world. You know, being up in DC, there's a really, really long line at Snally Gaster for Fidens, for um, it's a brewery called ill will. Um, there's a couple breweries, and it's Snally Gaster is such an interesting, and it was just there last week, and that's why it's fresh on my brain. It's an interesting scene because there are certain breweries that have you know 50, 60 people in line and they're waiting 20, 30 minutes for a beer right next to a brewery that is just exceptional, that has you can just walk right up, and it's beers of just as good, if not better, quality. Um, so I think that rare beer culture exists in the world. In Georgia, it doesn't. Um we were talking earlier about Little Cottage. Little Cottage, I think, has built a little bit of that, but I think the fact that we didn't that the fact that you couldn't, a brewery couldn't release a beer at the brewery until less than 10 years ago, that culture just never grew up.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

In a way that, you know, again, working at Cigar City, we had even when I remember when we released Marshall Zukov in 2014, there was like an hours-long line for Marshall Zukov. I don't think you could have built that if you released Marshall Zukov at a total wine. Sure. You know, and in Georgia, you would have had to release that Zukov at Total Wine. Okay. So I think it just it didn't really grow up that way in Georgia as a result. There are some, there's definitely a small contingency, like when we're lucky enough to get Fidens on draft, or we're lucky enough to get this, that, or the other very, very rare beer. You know, there's a handful of people that will come out. But I was actually having this conversation with um a few other people that run retail places around Georgia. What brewery, what beer could we put on draft if you just snap your fingers and have any beer in the world that would have a line out the door? And I don't think that exists. In Georgia specifically, I don't think that exists. DC, when Snally Gas, or I'm sorry, when Church Key has a Fidens drop, there's a line. Um New York, when there's whatever brewery, you know, whatever hazy IPA brewery right now, like when Fidens releases a new beer at their brewery, they have a line. Um, but it just doesn't exist like it did in the world. Doesn't exist like it did 10, 15 years ago. Sure. But Georgia specifically is really a um it virtually doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. Wow. Do you do you have um do you at the brickstore, is that part of your program to bring in those those weird, crazy hazies?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, absolutely. Okay, absolutely. We we try to strike a balance. The reality is we've been here 30 years. The stuff that you and I want to drink, Mark, is Sierra Nevada Paleo. That's what we're drinking now. I'm drinking Sierra Nevada Oktoberfest as well. That's the stuff that I'm drawn to. Um if I had Madruthers, it would be a lot more stuff like that. But we can't pretend like, first of all, like people aren't excited about hazy IPA and pastry stout. And second of all, we can't pretend like they're not good beers. They're they are good beers just because it's not the stuff that you and I were familiar with when we were getting into beer, whatever, 15, 20 years ago, yeah, doesn't mean it's not good beer. There's really good hazy IPA out there. There's really good pastry stout, there's really good fruited sour beer out there. Um so I always say we're not a beer museum, even though we have a ton of laggers and a ton of Cascale and a ton of traditional Belgian beer, we're not a beer museum. We're you are gonna walk in here and see hazy double IPAs and double dry hopped IPAs and pastry stouts and things like that. Um, because we're trying to stay current and trying to keep up with what we think is good beer. At the end of the day, there's some breweries that I think get some hype, and some breweries that um are made available to us that I say, you know, we're actually we're we're good. That just doesn't fit into what we do because it's either it's too far to the kind of hypey end, you know. I'm thinking of the like smoothie sours, that's not the stuff that you like you can't pour on draft because it's so chunky. Yeah, that's not us. Um the stuff that doesn't resemble beer in any capacity, that stuff's not us. Um but it's we'll pass on hyped beer that isn't quality. I I'd rather run quality beer from a lesser-known brewery than hype beer from a very well-known brewery. Okay. But there's hype beer from a hyped brewery that is phenomenal. Yeah, and that's the best of both worlds. That's stuff we're gonna run. I I got lost in the weeds there for a second.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, well, and that that begs the question. How many times do those Venn diagrams, how many times do you run into a beer that fits in all of those circles?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, some of the hazy I hate hate to quit harping on Fidens or hate to keep harping on Fidens, but uh they do some exceptional IPAs, and that's a brewery that you know the geeks definitely came out for, you know, the other halves, the monkish, the stuff like that. It's good beer. It's quality beer, and um, it has some hype, and that's the quality is more important than the hype, but the hype doesn't help, right? It doesn't hurt, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01:

But the um but the reality of that is too, is that um do you have well, do you have to then stretch your palate? Because I I'm I like hazy IPAs to a degree, but I'm not I'm not going to trade an arm and a leg to try and get a can of this, that, and the other. Do you does there are there ever times where you have to kind of stretch your palate and go, okay, not my favorite, but the people will like it?

SPEAKER_00:

Every day. And let's even put the hype thing aside. Again, Hefeweizen. I hate Hefeweizen. I never do that about you, Neil. I just don't, nothing about it appeals to me. But Einger Brauweiss is a permanent line here, and it's it's one of our best, like top two or three best-selling beers. So sometimes the hype or sort of expanding the beer tradition part is incidental. Sometimes it's just styles, you know, it's a personal preference, it's a hedonic thing. I don't like that, but I know people will, and I know it's and I know it's good beer. Even if I don't like it, I know it's good. That's the important thing.

SPEAKER_01:

That's the kind of litmus test of what makes it and what doesn't. Yeah, that's that's a good way to put it. Okay. Um what are I want to talk a little bit about your beer program and LDA drinkers, young drinkers who are coming into beer. Um, what part of your audience, what how do you appeal to those who are just coming up into their 21st birthday, 22nd birthday, and not being a beer museum, but yet also having those approachable beers?

SPEAKER_00:

It's I it's a I don't know, buzzword, but I think the word authenticity still means a lot. Um, when you can put a beer in a 21 21-year-old's hand, like an Orval, and you could say, look, it's been it's brewed inside of a monastery, and look at this gorgeous glass and look at this gorgeous bottle. And this is going to be like unlike anything you've ever had before, and there's tradition behind it, and it's not trying to run after a certain demographic. Okay, Orval's not trying to mark it to any demographic, they're just making great beer. Um, I think that resonates with a 21-year-old the same way it resonates with a 61-year-old. So authenticity, and that's part of I think the equation to go back to the Belgian draft beer selling so well right now. It's authentic when you can explain, you know, look, this wasn't devised by uh a marketing team somewhere, you know, keeping up with beer business daily and things like that. There's certain brands that, you know, oh, it's got this celebrity behind it, and it was developed by this guy who used to be a numbers cruncher at Diagio, and this guy who ran a Budweiser wholesaler. Like, I just don't think that's authentic. Sure. Five years from now, that stuff's not gonna exist. Right. Five years from now, we're gonna be drinking doval. Fifty years from now, we're gonna be drinking duval. And I think that authentic sort of um I don't know, un unwavering is not the right word, but sort of that um steadfastness is probably the the good word. Okay uh I don't think that's ever gonna go away. And I do think young people latch on to things like that. Like I think when you can show young people cask ale and say, look, it's poured been poured like this in England for hundreds of years, that's I think people get excited about that.

SPEAKER_01:

Is that and so for those LDA drinkers, um, is there how do you bring so in bringing them into that authentic beer, is it ever because I uh and I I always harpen back to my own beer journey where it's where it was is that something that is the the the math is too high? Like the it's it's calculus and I'm only at an algebra level. Is that something that that's the palate isn't there for? Or is that I mean, you could say that about IPAs, I guess, where your palate isn't doesn't want better beer yet. But to is a young drinker's palate not ready for Belgian beer? Or is Belgian beer just approachable? Do you find that Belgian beer is just that approachable all over?

SPEAKER_00:

It just it tastes good or it doesn't at the end of the day. I think that's the important thing. You know, it's it beer is accessible to everybody. That's part of what I love about beer. I love wine too. I drink a lot of wine, but that's part of the exciting thing about beer is you can come to the brickstore, spend 50 bucks, and get six different incredible world-class, some of the best beers in the world. You go to uh you know fancy wine place, you spend 50 bucks, you get two glasses of good wine that just tastes like wine. It's good, but it tastes like wine. Okay. Um, so I don't think there's a I don't know, intellectual barrier of entry necessarily when it comes to beer for a 21-year-old. I think a 20-year-old 21-year-old knows what tastes good and what doesn't um at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

The same way I think a 51-year-old knows what tastes good and what doesn't.

SPEAKER_01:

And their pal and pallets continue as pallets continue to evolve. Um, what do you see as beer's greatest advantage um in this very topsy-turvy market in 2025 and beyond? What do you what does beer have that keeps bringing people back?

SPEAKER_00:

Affordability is a big thing. Sure. Again, come to the brickstore and spend$50 on beer, and you're gonna get six or seven incredible world-class beers, and you're gonna leave very satisfied and probably with a really good buzz on for 50 bucks. For 50 bucks, yeah. And then it's a spectrum of flavors. You know, I'm just thinking of our draft list downstairs right now. So we have Ailesmith Speedway Stout right next to that mixed culture Hefeweitzen, right next to Pilsner or Kell, right next to uh uh fruited sour ale from Three Taverns, right next to Hazy Double IPA from Equilibrium. That spectrum of flavors. I mean, anybody can tell you, they might not be able to tell you what style it is, but anybody can tell you, oh, that one's different than that one, and that one's different than that one for very, very specific reasons in a way that, again, I love wine, but you put six different white wines side by side. You can maybe pick out some nuances and some differences, but a lot of people by the six one will go, I don't know it just tastes like wine, I don't know. And I think that that variety and that spectrum of flavor is something beer has always had going for it. And then again, the for affordability, the the people's drink sort of element to it.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, Neil, I want to be respectful of your time, but I like to end everybody every interview with six quick questions. So if you're game, I get a six pack of questions for you. Absolutely. I love it. Okay, so the first question is every beer person's favorite question, which is what is your favorite current beer? Current favorite beer.

SPEAKER_00:

Current, I'm drinking a whole lot of uh Alexander from Schilling. It's a Czech Pale Lager. Okay. Um, Schilling just does some exceptional, exceptional beer. Wonderful people. They're up in northern New Hampshire, it's the most beautiful setting for a brewery you've ever seen. So it's and it's drinkable, it's just easy drinking. Okay, phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Next, if you could only drink one style, what would it be? Brown ale.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Multi, low ABV. That's usually my my wheelhouse. I know I just said I drink a lot of this Alexander, but um, and actually, I remember saying that in my interview at Cigar City in 2014. Um, I think Joey actually asked me, you know, oh, just as an as during the interview, just as an aside, what's what's your favorite Cigar City beer? I I'm sure it was sort of a, you know, how much you know about this brand. Sure. And I just immediately was like, oh, Maduro, obviously. Oh, and then you were kindred spirits. Yeah, and everybody kind of kind of went, What yeah? I was like, Yeah, it's Maduro, it's the fucking best. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and that's always been his baby for brown brown ale. Gotcha. Okay. Um, what's the last beer you had that changed your mind?

SPEAKER_00:

Changed my mind. That's in a good way, in a bad way, however, you read it. Changed my mind. Guinness Zero. Guinness Zero is so close to actual Guinness. I we sell a lot of non alcoholic beer. It's amazing how that category has grown. Even in the three years that I've been doing this at the brick store, it's it's it's amazing. Um there's good one, there's very good ones and very bad ones, but I think you can always tell, yeah, look, it's good, but I can tell it's not alcoholic. I can tell some athletic does phenomenal stuff, but you can you're never gonna be fooled into thinking that athletic upside down is an actual golden ale. You go, oh, this tastes very good, but I know this is not real beer. Sure. Guinness Zero tastes like Guinness. It's really, really, really, really close. So I'd say that's the last one that changed my mind, and it changed my mind on quality and fidelity when it comes to non-alcoholic beer.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. Okay. Um, when it comes to beer, what do you wish you really understood?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I would say I mean so much. I wish I understood more about fermentation and how different flavors and aromas are created during fermentation. Sort of how you can take certain types of sugars and certain molecules, have the yeast metabolize them into these esters and phenols and that sort of thing. My understanding is I'd say decent, but um the fact that you can get so many different expressions from sort of the same the same wort using different yeasts, you can get so many different flavors, aromas, qualities of beer just through fermentation. So the way that that yeast takes that sugar, turns it into something completely different, is uh fascinating. It's something that I don't think uh I will ever know enough about.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. What's one thing you wish everybody knew about your about the brickstore?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know. That's that's a good question. I think that we're not a beer museum, that we uh have our finger on the pulse of what's going on in the world of beer right now, in a way that um we're never gonna deviate from sort of the classics, we're never gonna not have the Pilsner Kells and the Sierra Nevada Pale ales and the St. Bernardo Sap Twelves, but that you can also come in here and get some really esoteric, really geeky, really hard to find stuff.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. And then finally, what's the greatest lesson you've learned in beer?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh I I know what the answer is, but I gotta kind of set this up a little bit. Okay. So I when I was living in New York, I ended up hanging out with a guy that had worked for Brooklyn Brewery for many, many years, and we were sitting at this bar Muggs in Brooklyn on Bedford Avenue, and um he ordered somewhere. We were talking about some beer, and I go, Oh, that beer sucks. He goes, No, no, that beer doesn't suck. It's not your flavor. He and it was a different story again, 2007, 2008. But he said, Look, with very few exceptions, commercial brewers don't release bad beer. There are some. Every now and then you get a infected beer, an oxidized beer. But he said, for the most part, brewers don't release bad beer. They might release beer that's not your flavor, but don't say a beer sucks or a beer is bad. Just say it's not my flavor.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So Hefeweizen, not my flavor. But no, but Hefeweitzen doesn't suck as a as a category.

SPEAKER_01:

Well said. Well said. Well, Neil, thank you very much for your time. It's been a great interview, and I appreciate it. Cool. Thank you, Mark. That was my conversation with Neil Callahan of the Brickstore Pub. My thanks to Neil, Dave, and the entire staff at the Brickstore for their wonderful hospitality. Thank you again to Coppertail Brewing for their sponsorship. Coppertail Brewing has been making Florida-inspired and Tampa brewed beer since 2014. Enjoy a free dive IPA, Unholy Triple, Cloud Dweller Hazy IPA, or Night Swim Porter in their tasting room across from Tampa's IKEA, just outside Ybor City. Thank you also to Barrel Aged Media and Events. Barrel Aged Media and Events hosts beer tours, curated tastings, and beer events throughout the Tampa Bay area. Corporate retreats, in-home tastings with friends, or a special bearthday party. Visit Barrelaged Media.com for more information. Are there any other guests you'd like to hear on the show? Reach out. I'm on social media at FLBer News or Mark at FloridaBeerNew.com and let me know what's going on in your world beerwise. Please remember to like, subscribe, and follow Beerwise on your favorite podcast platform so you don't miss an episode. Also, please remember to review the show on your favorite platform to help us reach new audiences. It really does help. Florida Beer News and this podcast are still on Patreon with new fundraising efforts for the podcast and website in hopes of continuing to make changes. Check out patreon.com slash Florida Beer News spelled out for information on how you and your business can help fuel our growth and get some cool rewards. That's all for now. Until next time, and I'll be back to talk about what's going on in the world. Beerwise. Cheers,

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