MEN'S SHEDS | PHIL JOHNSON, Managing Director for US Men's Sheds

Men’s Sheds, an international phenomenon, with thousands of clubs worldwide, are mainly ‘clubs for older guys’. They provide a place for older men to meet, build friendships and projects, pursue their interests, learn new things, and discuss health issues. In these places, there is a comfort level to talk while working “Shoulder to Shoulder”.

Phil Johnson is the Managing Director of the US Men’s Sheds, the one who originally organized, and currently helps to grow  the organization. In this episode we hear from him about the transformative effect Men's Sheds have had on retired and elder men's lives. 

Transcript

MEN’S SHEDS 

Phil Johnson, Managing Director US Men’s Sheds
S2 Episode 3: TRANSCRIPT                       April 17, 2022

Phil

“I think some of the most meaningful stories I've heard about men's sheds, is the turnaround older men can make after joining a men's shed, meeting fellows, they actually get a new spark in life. They're doing things they weren't doing before and maybe never have ever tried by themselves, that are interesting, and they're in an environment that is very welcoming and accepting. Maybe they didn't have much of that in their life before. It sure is a wonderful feeling just to show up and have a cup of coffee with someone and have a chance to chat or do other things that are just interesting and a way of reducing any social isolation they might've been feeling.”

Nina

“I'm Nina Freedman. And this is WHEREING. WHEREING explores where we are. It is dedicated to those who believe in the inherent right of belonging and all the ways we feel we belong, and connect to ourselves, to each other, and the spaces that hold the stories where all of this comes alive. Where each experience of belonging is a work of art created by chance or by design. Dare I ask is belonging where you are not what matters most? WHEREING is the spatial story. Welcome.”

Men's Sheds, an international phenomenon with thousands of clubs worldwide, are mainly clubs for older guys. They provide a place for older men to meet, build friendships and projects, pursue their interests, learn new things and discuss health issues. In these places, there's a comfort level to talk while working 'shoulder to shoulder'. Phil Johnson is the managing director and the man who originally organized and currently helps to grow the US Men's Sheds. After a long career in aerospace engineering and software development, including 40 years of forming and growing nonprofit organizations in education, sports, human rights and youth programs, he took on the task of senior wellness. We are about to hear from him and the transformative effect Men's Sheds has had on retired and elder men's lives. 

Phil. So nice to have you here today. 

Phil

Thank you for inviting me, Nina. 

Nina

It's really my pleasure.    Phil,  how, and where did men's sheds begin?

Phil

Men's sheds began in Australia really as an outcome of men needing more services that weren't available, but primarily they suffered more from isolation and loneliness. Older retired men and unemployed men, with limited education, with lower levels of health literacy and from disadvantaged, socioeconomic backgrounds are most at risk.  US mens' sheds were developed as an outcome of Australian men's sheds having operated successfully for about 15 years. 

Nina

The person that started the men's sheds in Australia, he must've had a really compelling reason to do that. Do you know that story?

Phil

Yeah. Happy to tell you that. Actually, it was a number of groups. In Australia they have a history of men having sheds on their property. It turned out that there were groups of men who decided to meet at someone's shed. One of their friend's shed, or a neighborhood shed, and basically make it their place away from home. It was a place where they could go and talk to guys. They could bring up questions they weren't comfortable asking their health provider or their wife  and the shed gave them a sense of purpose. So, these were in existence and the Australian men's sheds really came together after 20, 30 years of these sheds being out there.

Nina

About when did it start? 

Phil

I'm going to say in the mid nineties, a professor at Adelaide University named Barry Golding had heard about these. He was a researcher. And so, what he did is, he went and talked to these sheds and he could see the benefit if they were to work together, you know, to compare experiences and to share ideas about how men sheds could work to the benefit of the men, their communities and their families. So, they held their first meeting. They approached the government . The government provided them with a very large grant to basically organize and make operational these ideas about how you could get men together locally, that could basically be a situation where men helped men. In Australia there was quite a difference between the suicide rates of men versus women, and also older men versus older women. And there was an extremely high rate of suicide among Aboriginal peoples. So, although they didn't say it was specifically to reduce suicides, that was the reason how they were able to get, I think, $400,000 for their start. And, with that money, they basically formed a communication network of these independent men's sheds. 

Nina

It's such an amazing phenomenon, how such a small grassroots initiative right could find its way to funding through the government. 

Phil

Yeah. One thing that's  to me, very interesting. I was trying to find a comparison when I first heard about them and I was thinking, is this like the Boy Scouts or what sort of organization is like this? And, I haven't found any because most clubs in particularly for men with a focus on men, say fraternal organizations or things like the boy Scouts, those are all directed from a national or international headquarters, so they're very specific modes of operation. They're very specific messages, principles and values, which are good, but basically there's a reasonable amount of control  above the local unit. But with men sheds, it was decided that the people in control would  be the men members of the men's shed. So, the national office wouldn't dictate what you call your shed, what the ages were, what the genders were, what you did there, or what you couldn't do there. Basically they said let's leave it to the local members. And, an interesting thing to me is, you know, many times men have women in their lives who like to organize things for them. One of the issues with men sheds, it's not hard for a well-meaning wife or daughter of a man who says, oh, you guys need to organize better and come in and straighten up everything in the shed. You get my point.  It really requires that men take control and manage the shed themselves. We have had some women who have helped provide facilities to start men's sheds around the country. But the women that help with that many times are like senior center coordinators. They basically set up the space, and the men take it from there. 

Nina

I'm sure this also has a wonderful impact on the families. 

Phil

Yes it does. I certainly have experienced now here in the states, we have 24 men sheds. We just added two more in the last two weeks. And, what it does for the families is number one, it frankly gets the guys out of the house. Part of our promotional audience really is spouses and significant others, daughters, people that know a man, maybe their dad maybe their husband, you know, who struggle to get up and get out, maybe they're shy or whatever. And, this is a great way for the guys, at least once a week to get up off their butts go somewhere where the families know they will meet similar men with similar challenges doing new and interesting things, and that the man is happy to go to. 

Nina

How did you get involved in this?

Phil

In 2016, I'd been retired about a year myself and I went online and frankly did a Google search on retired men's activities. The number one through seven thing that popped up were men's sheds. Men's sheds Australia, men's sheds Ireland, on and on. And I said, whoa, what's this? And I read through the material. I said, Hey, sounds loosely, like boy Scouts for old guys, you know, you're,  going to be with guys your own age, you're going to be doing fun things. You're going to be learning new things, sharing skills. And I just thought that was great. So, I went to my local senior center and I talked to the director there and she was extremely supportive. As a matter of fact, we wrote out a flyer right then, right there, and decided on what date we'd have our first meeting. That's really very common with people like this, because senior center directors and people running community centers or say their activity directors in a retirement community, they're already in the business of wanting to find things for their guys to do. And, men are notorious for not going out and joining. They're not good joiners compared to say their spouses and partners. So, we set up what they call an information meeting, and our first men's shed meeting was held in Hopkins, Minnesota. It took place in a senior center, which worked out great. There's no money involved. All you have to do to have a men's shed is have a place to meet. And so, we've gotten very good support from senior centers, senior living housing and also education. Men like to learn and continue to learn, even though they're retired. So, people involved with lifelong learning, typically at a school district think this is just great. And we've had in the city of Roseville, Minnesota, we have a men's shed there, that is actually located in the same building as the university extension group that runs lifelong learning, and also their senior center. 

Nina

Sounds really smart. I understand it's also a healthcare strategy, isn't it? 

Phil

Yes. Men aren't always comfortable going to see their health care providers for a number of reasons. More and more, the people they're meeting with are women, and they also feel like they should  be sufficient all to themselves. So, reaching out to a healthcare provider is seen as frankly, weakness, or an admission that he can't take care of himself. Well, this really is the case, but in the meantime, these men are sitting at home becoming lonely and socially isolating themselves. So that's what men's sheds does, is, you get to a group and you have guys to talk about. For myself, I was having trouble with my dentures and I asked around and one of the guys there in our men's shed had a lot of experience with that. So, he gave me a lot of information, you know, that would have taken me to have to call up a dentist and make an appointment. But I was looking for, you know, what's it really like to have dentures, so  that was a big help. Another thing we find is men in men's sheds do talk about their health. They may have one particular person in the shed that they're most comfortable talking to about these things and asking things like, you know, I think I might have a problem with my prostate or I've got this really sore hip. And, it's much easier and certainly quicker and freer. It's free to talk to your friends.  And, we find that when a man shares this with another man, the other man, isn't just listening politely. They're listening as a friend, so if they're hearing things like, I just don't want to see the doctor and what the man, the friend, is hearing is, Hey, this is a problem. They'll get on the other guy and say, no you got to see the doctor. You want me to help you set up an appointment, or what can we do? But this sounds very serious, Bob, and I think you should get it looked at.

Nina

It's wonderful. What kind of activities go on in the men's sheds?

Phil

I think the biggest draw of most men to men's sheds is they're doing a wide variety of activities that provide the guys with fun things to do, doing it with people like themselves. When they do some of these activities, it might be somebody coming in to give a talk about a  healthcare related title or, it could be a community service project that they would be doing for the senior center, for the city they live in. And, these can be all sorts of things that are a benefit, because they are things that the city doesn't have to pay their laborers to do, or their professional policemen to do. These are things that get done, get done quickly with a smile. So, it ends up saving the city, and building up better community relations. 

Nina

Small scale construction projects. 

Phil

Yeah, a lot of men enjoy doing that. I would broaden that a little bit to say projects that are less  tool related, or things you do with your hands. So, whether it's painting a fence, or whether it's refinishing a wood bench for the senior center, or just helping out in other ways. These are all things men can do, they enjoy doing together. And it benefits their community, as well as themselves. 

Nina

There's also some intergenerational teaching, isn't there. 

Phil

Yes. One of the things that happened in Australia near the very beginning, they have had men that have challenges, or issues of all ages. For instance, in the early part of the 21st century, quite a few men were out of work, and those men had no place to go. Even if you gave them unemployment benefits. What they were really missing was something that could reduce loneliness, improve their self esteem, build up their skills, and basically create friends for them that they wouldn't have had otherwise.

Nina

Do they work with school children? 

Phil

We found that there are a number of  activities that men sheds do with younger people. For myself, it reminds me of doing things with my grandchildren. So, that's why it's fun. It's comfortable for me to do, but it might be working with a local Cub Scout pack ,where they might be making a little wooden racer, that they can run down a ramp, and maybe their father doesn't have tools, or they don't have a father, or their father isn't interested, or doesn't have the skill. So men shedders can take the boys, and we always meet as groups and basically help them design and carve out their racer. Another case is where men sheds can work with the school district and local schools. One particular activity recently was the Hopkins men's shed meeting with a second grade class in a school, near the men's shed meeting site, and they did model projects that were actually provided by Home Depot. They were just right for seven and eight year olds. The kids enjoyed putting it together, and the men enjoyed the enthusiasm and friendliness of the kids. We get a lot of support from local stores and businesses. So, when the Hopkins men's shed wanted to get some of wood kits from Home Depot, they went to their local store who are happy to give them out. One of our groups was in a building with a Head Start group and they found out that the teachers didn't have a break table to sit at. So, they went to their local store, and got a free $100. picnic table kit that the men put together, and then painted and provided it for free to the Head Start program workers. They were very happy and it also led to the men building garden boxes for the kids to grow plants in. 

Nina

That's such a nice story.  So, are you the lead person in the states? Are you managing all of this? How is this working? 

Phil

Yes. We have local men's sheds that report and register with our national headquarters. I decided here in Minnesota that we had such a good time organizing our first men's shed, that I went around to other senior centers, and offered to help them put together their own men's sheds. So, this was done, it's all informal. Right now,  we have eight men's sheds here in Minnesota. These were started basically by me and a couple other folks that have gotten together with me, and we formed the Minnesota men's sheds group whose role is specifically to spread the word and help new men's sheds get started in their communities. 

Nina

This is your new job.

Phil

Yes, it is. Yeah. It's really interesting, but frankly,  it's easy in that, as I said, when you talk to people that are already in the business, they're professional helpers, say social workers or whoever that want to help find activities for men, and they're being paid to do so, this is a no brainer for them. It doesn't require anything but providing a space .You don't have to have a woodshop or tools. You just need a space for the guys to meet and give them a chance to start doing things that they all decide together that they'd like to do. 

Nina

“We are listening to Phil Johnson, the man who began the Men's Shed movement in the United States, and the transformative effect it has had on retired and elder men's lives.”

The name of the men's sheds has such a beautiful phrase attached to it, which is 'shoulder to shoulder'.  

Phil

That's correct. Nina. In Australia, part of their rationale for developing or organizing men's sheds was that they found, in their society, it was very common for men to enjoy talking to other guys, when they were in a work situation or hobby situation or doing something where they were basically standing shoulder to shoulder.  As opposed to a women's group, that might be meeting  face-to-face, in say a circle of chairs, or something like a book club. Men just are more comfortable if they've got something else to do. They're much more comfortable talking about themselves when they're not having to look at somebody. 

Nina

There's always been embedded in the culture, women claiming space, like 'A Room of My Own'. 

Phil

That's true. And, a number of things, for instance women representing themselves to say governmental bodies. There are health policies for women and organizations set up specifically to help women, but  men, they don't have the same ability to organize something. So, this then really takes shape when you have someone helping the men, but not trying to control and dictate to the men on how to use their time and space. 

Nina

I actually think men are probably really good at organizing things, except when it comes to something sensitive or vulnerable like this. The asking of help, needing to discuss private topics. During their careers, if they've had to organize business meetings, no problem.

Phil

You're right. Nina. And, I have a case. My father, a professional engineer, had a very successful career. But, once my mother passed away, he had a difficult time doing things.  It's not that he didn't know how to pick up the phone and call his brother, or call his kids. It just wasn't comfortable for him to do that. So, he ended up spending almost all his time at home and it was very difficult, but again he didn't have that set of social skills that he depended on his wife to provide, but I sure wish my father would have had a men's shed. 

Nina

Are there taboo things that you don't do in the men's shed? 

Phil

Men sheds do have a set of principles and values, and basically it's the values of inclusion, helpfulness, acceptance. So, we're very open to talking about anything. However, like many, other organizations, we find that it's very difficult if there are some men that want to talk about politics or religion, which are  even more sensitive topics for most men. I've never seen anybody mention it, but it just seems like, hey, nobody's bringing up the election in two months or talking about what they saw on TV, because they're encouraged to talk about things that are meaningful to them.

Nina

The values that you're talking about, they set the tone.  As you're talking, I'm wondering about other types of situations where men have historically gotten together.  For example, men have always gotten together to hunt. They play sports, go golfing . Things like that. This seems different. Maybe it's also the age range that we're talking about, but some of the men in your sheds probably have these other resources as well. 

Phil

Yes, they do. It's not like these other activities. If you're not a golfer, you're not going to join a golf club, then have people to talk to. Hunting can be one where you do. But if it's just family members, some men are uncomfortable, maybe opening up to their sons or son-in-law or uncles. This really is different. There's no organized way or systemic way for men to be able to meet with other men and talk about topics that are specific to them, their age group and their education. 

Nina

One of the keys to this might be that they're strangers to each other.

Phil

Yes, that is true. I will tell you that the first men's shed that I attended, and some of the others I've helped form, none of them included multiple groups of men who are friends. Everybody who joins a men's shed, and this isn't always the case or have to be, but it just turns out these are men looking to meet with other guys like themselves. If they had a friend to talk to that may be all they need, but the men that show up for a men's shed are looking for new things to do, new people to meet and a comfortable way to get to meet them. 

Nina

New people don't carry the baggage or assumptions that a family have about you already. 

Phil

You're right. There are constraints in topics that they wouldn't talk about with, say family members of another generation, or they may not trust those people with sensitive information about themselves.  Also, it's hard for many men to go to a son or daughter and openly talk about how they've been feeling, concerns they have about their health, and what they should do about it, compared to having a friend that they meet with every Thursday afternoon that they know has had some medical problems. All the guys in the shed are sensitive to these challenges and ready to help in any way they can, to discuss and make decisions.

Nina

They can vet out a problem without scaring their wife or their child.

Phil

That's correct. That's very right. It's true. It's a safe place to talk to people just about anything. 

 Nina

Would you like this to be opened up to more indigenous communities? 

Phil

Yes. Here in Minnesota we have seven different native American tribes on 11 different reservations, and here in our cities. Elder men really struggle because there aren't necessarily programs for them. We believe that because many native peoples have a better appreciation for elder men who are credited with having wisdom, that if they had a place to meet together to discuss their history, to provide, say culture about tools or language to younger people in their tribal community, we think that would work well.  I believe that'll come. We have a community in Northern Minnesota, that includes both whites and Indians, and we believe that a men's shed up there would welcome and be attractive to men of different ethnicities and experiences. So, we're certainly hoping and expecting that this will happen someday. I have a nephew who actually is a member of a Mdewakanton Sioux tribe, and I have met a number of tribal officers. I think at some point when I'm comfortable, we'd like to talk to them. Would they be interested in something like this, given their particular situation economically and philosophically?

Nina

It would be wonderful to welcome in the native American groups, as well as becoming more racially diverse. Each of these groups have their own issues, health issues too. 

Phil

I do think so. When we think about different situations of men of different ethnicities, I think that native American men, or say men in an inner city community, I believe that they do have places they're meeting now. For instance, in small town America, you might have guys that enjoy hanging outside the feed store or the hardware store or the general store, and sit on rockers and wait for people to pass by, because it provides them with people to talk to. The same might be similar for men in a black community, who hang out at the barbershops. So, we think there are examples of those sort of places for older men to go to that provide an example for them to understand, what it is we're talking about, and how men's sheds could work for them. 

Nina

You must feel so fulfilled doing this. 

Phil

Yes. Thanks. I really do. I've certainly met tons of  new friends.  I also have a lot of hobbies and interests, so things like going to a local museum or going fishing with men's shed members on a pontoon boat, or having someone come in and give us a cooking class. These things are all fun and that I wouldn't do by myself. It's great to have this be available to me, and to do it with people I really like and respect.  Some of the most meaningful stories I've heard about men's sheds, is the turnaround men can make from being lonely, maybe depressed, and after joining a men's shed, meeting fellows, they actually get a new spark in life. They're doing things they weren't doing before and maybe never have ever tried by themselves, that are interesting, and they're in an environment that is very welcoming and accepting. Maybe they didn't have much of that in their life before. It sure is a wonderful feeling just to show up and have a cup of coffee with someone and have a chance to chat or do other things that are just interesting and a way of reducing any loneliness or social isolation they might've been feeling.

Nina

So, for those who are listening and interested in participating, learning more about men's sheds, or starting a men's shed, what resources are available to them and how can they reach out? I'm also going to put information on my website how men can get in touch, if they want to learn more about it. Could  you share what these resources are, and the other thing is, challenges that people might have in setting one up, and how you can help. 

Phil

Sure. Happy to do so. You can look up a website www.usmenssheds.org . Men's sheds plural dot org. That's the best resource to find information. They also have interactive maps of the whole United States. So, they can readily see where men's sheds exist already. If they find one that they might want to contact, that information to contact them is in there. Also, if they just like more information, there are contacts on the website to get more information. 

Nina

That's great. So, thank you Phil, for your time today, and for your commitment to such important work. Can't be underestimated. I really wish your organization a lot of success in expanding into more sheds across the United States.

Phil

Well, that's great. Nina. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you and your listeners. And hopefully if they have someone in their life that could use a men's shed they could  look us up and see if we might be a possibility to help them. 

Nina

That's wonderful. 

“Dear listeners. Thank you for being here. I invite you to reflect on what you've heard today and send your thoughts or stories. We would love to hear from you. Stay in touch on Instagram, or on our website thewhereing.com. Subscribe free to WHEREING wherever you get your podcasts, so that you are alerted when the next episode airs. WHEREING is a pro bono initiative of Dreamland Creative Projects, which provides architectural and interior design services, for the places where we live, heal, age and inspire. If you wish to have a design consultation, visit dreamlandcreativeprojects.com, or email me nina@dreamlandcreativeprojects.com. Until we meet again, goodbye from WHEREING.”